The Moving-Rolling Delisting/Retiring/Trading Thread 2017

[G-Mo77]

GWS took De Boer & Mzungu late last year. Having 82 as a live pick gives us options on draft night. Several types of options as you say. With Dal's recent work in particular, giving him another live pick is a good thing. We will have Smith at the club next year if we simply rookie draft him. So this is not all too bad.

Have you seen the list of DFA available right now? This list is pretty thin even before the DFA signings can take place.

[GVGjr]

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2017-10-31/bulldogs-commit-to-redrafting-roarke-smith-

Looks like we're going to re-rookie Smith. Good result all round.

Given his injuries this is a fair outcome

[bulldogtragic]

Given his injuries this is a fair outcome

Perfect outcome. Dal gets 82. Roarke stays. So we all get what we want.

[hujsh]

Yes definitely a better outcome for the club

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Much more sensible outcome than upgrading him.

In harsh reality it’s debatable whether we should re rookie him, but happy to do so if the club likes him. Leap and pace looks good but he will need more than that if he’s to make it.

[jazzadogs]

I think he has shown enough positives when on-field, as evidenced by the fact that he was given a debut, and if not for his knee injuries we likely would have seen further improvement.

I'm glad he's not on the senior list, but also very glad that we've retained him for another year. I think he would be well aware of where is at, and what is expected of him in 2018. If he is not playing regular senior football (he will be eligible even though he is a rookie) or at least shown significant improvement then I think our decision at the end of next year is simple, regardless of injuries.

[jeemak]

I think he has shown enough positives when on-field, as evidenced by the fact that he was given a debut, and if not for his knee injuries we likely would have seen further improvement.

I'm glad he's not on the senior list, but also very glad that we've retained him for another year. I think he would be well aware of where is at, and what is expected of him in 2018. If he is not playing regular senior football (he will be eligible even though he is a rookie) or at least shown significant improvement then I think our decision at the end of next year is simple, regardless of injuries.

If he gets to us. How would the detractors towards the decision to delist and hopefully retain him if he falls a fair way to a late-ish rookie selection react? Is the club vindicated, or do we worry about them taking a risk?

I'd be surprised if we didn't know if other parties were interested in his services.

[jazzadogs]

If he gets to us. How would the detractors towards the decision to delist and hopefully retain him if he falls a fair way to a late-ish rookie selection? Is the club vindicated, or do we worry about them taking a risk?

I'd be surprised if we didn't know if other parties were interested in his services.

The quote from McCartney that we've had positive discussions with Roarke and his management (paraphrased) suggests that we're fairly confident he'll still be there for us.

If another team wants to jump in and take him, meaning we have another rookie pick for a new player, I won't be overly upset. I'd prefer that than having him on the main list.

[divvydan]

I have to assume this decision has been made well after the trade period given how late we were willing to have our 3rd pick come in (82). That being said, by the time draft night comes around, I suspect pick 82 will be closer to pick 55-60 in terms of live picks.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I so hope the player we are looking at with 82 is Liam Ryan.

Do you think he will last till pick 82? Gosh I hope so (but doubt it).

I just watched his highlight reel/looked up his stats and he looks bloody impressive. Seems he had a disappointing grand final (well blanketed by Nyhuis) but 73 goals, sitting on blokes heads, and positive reports from the combine surely has a few clubs looking at him.

Writeup and video for those that are interested:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-15/human-highlight-reel-dominates-wa-combine

[jeemak]

The quote from McCartney that we've had positive discussions with Roarke and his management (paraphrased) suggests that we're fairly confident he'll still be there for us.

If another team wants to jump in and take him, meaning we have another rookie pick for a new player, I won't be overly upset. I'd prefer that than having him on the main list.

Agreed. I just always find it funny, given how long the AFEL drags out this period for media coverage, how we pull our collective skirts over our heads when things look to be going one way over another, with plenty of time left at this time of year.

[jeemak]

Do you think he will last till pick 82? Gosh I hope so (but doubt it).

I just watched his highlight reel/looked up his stats and he looks bloody impressive. Seems he had a disappointing grand final (well blanketed by Nyhuis) but 73 goals, sitting on blokes heads, and positive reports from the combine surely has a few clubs looking at him.

Writeup and video for those that are interested:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-15/human-highlight-reel-dominates-wa-combine

Nope, he's not there at our last pick. If his highlights are in any way indicative of talent versus getting to the right positions he's a second round pick at the latest.

[LostDoggy]

Do you think he will last till pick 82? Gosh I hope so (but doubt it).

I just watched his highlight reel/looked up his stats and he looks bloody impressive. Seems he had a disappointing grand final (well blanketed by Nyhuis) but 73 goals, sitting on blokes heads, and positive reports from the combine surely has a few clubs looking at him.

Writeup and video for those that are interested:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-15/human-highlight-reel-dominates-wa-combine

He was in the draft lst year and a few pundits thought he'd go but clubs were concerned about his commitment/professionalism. Despite doing so well this year, can't see anyone going too early on him. Gee his skillset would be nice for us.

[Bulldog4life]

He was in the draft lst year and a few pundits thought he'd go but clubs were concerned about his commitment/professionalism. Despite doing so well this year, can't see anyone going too early on him. Gee his skillset would be nice for us.

He is spoken about in the draft thread

[dukedog]

I just don't think we have the right people and support networks around our club to support the young indigenous kids.

[GVGjr]

I just don't think we have the right people and support networks around our club to support the young indigenous kids.

Are you sure? I think we could be as good as any club in that area.

[hujsh]

Are you sure? I think we could be as good as any club in that area.

There's not much in the way of results to back that up though so as an outsider you have to wonder if there's some truth in the above.

[bornadog]

There's not much in the way of results to back that up though so as an outsider you have to wonder if there's some truth in the above.

You would have thought someone like Brett Goodes would have put systems into place.

[GVGjr]

There's not much in the way of results to back that up though so as an outsider you have to wonder if there's some truth in the above.

I'm not sure I agree with the negativity. I'd back us to have the right support in place as BAD mentioned.


You would have thought someone like Brett Goodes would have put systems into place.

[jazzadogs]

You would have thought someone like Brett Goodes would have put systems into place.

Systems in place don't equal results though. How many 'bad boys' or difficult personalities have we turned around?

Stringer gone this year. Issues with Libba seem to persist, as an outsider. Boyd and Cloke both taking time off for mental health issues this year (definitely also a sign of good systems and support, but not ideal that their concerns progressed to that point).

It's a while since we had a player coming from an indigenous community (not discounting those with indigenous backgrounds such as Liam Jones and Koby Stevens), so it would be interesting to 'test' these systems, but I would not be confident in our abilities.

[bornadog]

Systems in place don't equal results though. How many 'bad boys' or difficult personalities have we turned around?

Stringer gone this year. Issues with Libba seem to persist, as an outsider. Boyd and Cloke both taking time off for mental health issues this year (definitely also a sign of good systems and support, but not ideal that their concerns progressed to that point).

It's a while since we had a player coming from an indigenous community (not discounting those with indigenous backgrounds such as Liam Jones and Koby Stevens), so it would be interesting to 'test' these systems, but I would not be confident in our abilities.

I thought we were talking about indigenous players

[jazzadogs]

I thought we were talking about indigenous players

Well specifically with indigenous players in the past 10 years (off the top of my head):
- Brennan Stack
- Josh Hill
- Malcolm Lynch
- Shane Thorne
- Liam Jones
- Zeph Skinner
- Koby Stevens
- Jarrod Harbrow

Zephi and Thorne were arguably the two from the most challenging/different backgrounds and it would appear we failed to adequately support both of them. Of the others, none were successful in their careers with us. I think it's fair to ask a question, but I also wouldn't refrain from selecting an indigenous player purely based on their background.

[bulldogtragic]

We can add Cam Faulkner (9) and Djerkerra (10) in the last 10 years. Our record isn't at all good in either developing or retaining them all 10 of them. I wonder if Jarman Impey was weighing up which club supports/develops indigenous players better?

[hujsh]

I'm not sure I agree with the negativity. I'd back us to have the right support in place as BAD mentioned.

I'm not in a position to actually judge but purely on our record I can think of one indigenous player of high quality we developed and he ran off basically as soon as he came on the scene. Any others would be before my time and would really be irrelevant to the conversation.

[comrade]

Well specifically with indigenous players in the past 10 years (off the top of my head):
- Brennan Stack
- Josh Hill
- Malcolm Lynch
- Shane Thorne
- Liam Jones
- Zeph Skinner
- Koby Stevens
- Jarrod Harbrow

Zephi and Thorne were arguably the two from the most challenging/different backgrounds and it would appear we failed to adequately support both of them. Of the others, none were successful in their careers with us. I think it's fair to ask a question, but I also wouldn't refrain from selecting an indigenous player purely based on their background.

It's a terrible record at face value but I'd like to see how our success rate compares against the rest of the league. I'd imagine we're not the only club that has had numerous indigenous players fail to kick on, we just know about the Dogs' failures because well...we're Dogs fans.

[Dry Rot]

You would have thought someone like Brett Goodes would have put systems into place.

I do some volunteer work at a local Indigenous organisation. Far more than systems is needed.

[Dry Rot]

Well specifically with indigenous players in the past 10 years (off the top of my head):
- Brennan Stack
- Josh Hill
- Malcolm Lynch
- Shane Thorne
- Liam Jones
- Zeph Skinner
- Koby Stevens
- Jarrod Harbrow

Zephi and Thorne were arguably the two from the most challenging/different backgrounds and it would appear we failed to adequately support both of them. Of the others, none were successful in their careers with us. I think it's fair to ask a question, but I also wouldn't refrain from selecting an indigenous player purely based on their background.

It would be interesting to compare records with clubs with Indigenous culture in their DNA e.g. Eagles, Swans, Bombers and Port.

[Twodogs]

I'm not in a position to actually judge but purely on our record I can think of one indigenous player of high quality we developed and he ran off basically as soon as he came on the scene. Any others would be before my time and would really be irrelevant to the conversation.

Les Bamblett and Michael Maclean went alright.

[bornadog]

Well specifically with indigenous players in the past 10 years (off the top of my head):
- Brennan Stack
- Josh Hill
- Malcolm Lynch
- Shane Thorne
- Liam Jones
- Zeph Skinner
- Koby Stevens
- Jarrod Harbrow

Zephi and Thorne were arguably the two from the most challenging/different backgrounds and it would appear we failed to adequately support both of them. Of the others, none were successful in their careers with us. I think it's fair to ask a question, but I also wouldn't refrain from selecting an indigenous player purely based on their background.

The question was around the right people and support, not how good the players were. I believe we looked after both Zeph and Thorne whilst they were at the club. Thorne wasn't good enough to play AFL and Zeph just wanted to go back home. He comes from a very remote part of Australia and missed the life there. I don't believe there was any question of not being supported or having the right people at the club as Dukedog mentions.

I will agree we haven't had a lot of success with the players you mention, but they all had different reasons for leaving/delisted.

[boydogs]

It's not about systems, it's about having other Indigenous players at the club they can connect with

[dukedog]

It's not about systems, it's about having other Indigenous players at the club they can connect with

I guess thats more along the lines of what i was implying. A system is not a mate. Also in terms of Liam Ryan specifically, its not about draughting him because he isnt talented enough. Its more to do with if we are the best fit. If you look at it. Mostnof the young indigenous boys get ONE crack at it. After that she is curtains. I think you owe it to the kid to give him the best chance.

[GVGjr]

I guess thats more along the lines of what i was implying. A system is not a mate. Also in terms of Liam Ryan specifically, its not about draughting him because he isnt talented enough. Its more to do with if we are the best fit. If you look at it. Mostnof the young indigenous boys get ONE crack at it. After that she is curtains. I think you owe it to the kid to give him the best chance.

OK, that makes a lot more sense.

[Raw Toast]

It's not about systems, it's about having other Indigenous players at the club they can connect with

I think this is part of it, but you also have to start somewhere - Hawthorn was known to be a very unfriendly environment (to put it mildly) for Indigenous players until Chance Bateman came to the club, and he and some other people started doing the necessary work to transform things. Now they are one of the leaders in terms of supporting Indigenous players. And clearly they've benefited immensely from this - for mine, Burgoyne was their most important player during their 3-peat (he continues to be the player they turn to when a game needs to be won late in the final quarter).

Likewise Essendon didn't have a DNA for supporting Indigenous players until the early 1990s. These things take time, but are also vital.

We certainly haven't had a great record of late, but it's very necessary for the club to keep trying and to continue educating (non-Indigenous) staff and players, as well as continuing to learn how to best support Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders who we recruit to play for us.

[Topdog]

All of our indigenous players were pretty much rubbish though.

Hill and Harbrow the exceptions and they didnt seem to have any problems here.

Not all indigenous players need extra help

[Mofra]

I guess thats more along the lines of what i was implying. A system is not a mate. Also in terms of Liam Ryan specifically, its not about draughting him because he isnt talented enough. Its more to do with if we are the best fit. If you look at it. Mostnof the young indigenous boys get ONE crack at it. After that she is curtains. I think you owe it to the kid to give him the best chance.
He has two kids and regularly misses training, appointments, and by all accounts was a no show for the Port Adelaide interview at the WA state combine.

I would have thought a guy with two kids and commitment issues is the last type of player we'd consider, unless we're after another two second rounders from Essendon in a couple of years.

[Twodogs]

He has two kids and regularly misses training, appointments, and by all accounts was a no show for the Port Adelaide interview at the WA state combine.

I would have thought a guy with two kids and commitment issues is the last type of player we'd consider, unless we're after another two second rounders from Essendon in a couple of years.

Yep. The whole happy family thing is a bit twee I thought. Those circumstances tend to change overnight.

[westbulldog]

Ryan is very talented but is fitness an issue ?
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/liam-ryan.1161775/

[LostDoggy]

All of our indigenous players were pretty much rubbish though.

Hill and Harbrow the exceptions and they didnt seem to have any problems here.

Not all indigenous players need extra help
I don't agree that players like Skinner and Lynch were rubbish. They didn't acquit themselves well enough because of factors other than ability. Maybe the club did everything they could for these guys and they were just never going to adapt, but the percentages say other clubs do it better than us.

[Twodogs]

I don't agree that players like Skinner and Lynch were rubbish. They didn't acquit themselves well enough because of factors other than ability. Maybe the club did everything they could for these guys and they were just never going to adapt, but the percentages say other clubs do it better than us.


I can still remember Skinners first touch in AFL. The ball is bouncing around at ankle height between him and three Swans defenders. Skinner picked it up with one hand, stepped backwards out of the pack and then just caressed the ball off his boot straight through the goals from 50. And it all happened in that slow motion effect you get in car accidents. It was magnificent,

[Topdog]

Yeah Skinner was definitely an exception but also from an extremely remote area.

There was a good interview with him a few years ago where he still regrets leaving but said he had to go back home

[Twodogs]

Yeah Skinner was definitely an exception but also from an extremely remote area.

There was a good interview with him a few years ago where he still regrets leaving but said he had to go back home

Yeah. WHats done is done but that kid had some unbelievable talent.

[bornadog]

Yeah Skinner was definitely an exception but also from an extremely remote area.

There was a good interview with him a few years ago where he still regrets leaving but said he had to go back home

Story here (https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/star-recruit-gave-up-afl-for-love-of-land-ng-ya-388321)

[Twodogs]

Story here (https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/star-recruit-gave-up-afl-for-love-of-land-ng-ya-388321)


I can see his point. My family have lived in Footscray for four generation and I am never happy unless the volcanic basalt that the western suburbs is built on is under my feet. If I go over the Maribyrnong I pine until I get back to this side of it. It must only be a factor of a thousand for a guy like Zeph.


As an observation I think his family are being a bit unfair on him, if they want an AFL career then they can put up with living in Melbourne and the daily toil that makes the couple of hours of magic happen each week. Walk a mile in the guys shoes then criticise him.

[azabob]

I can still remember Skinners first touch in AFL. The ball is bouncing around at ankle height between him and three Swans defenders. Skinner picked it up with one hand, stepped backwards out of the pack and then just caressed the ball off his boot straight through the goals from 50. And it all happened in that slow motion effect you get in car accidents. It was magnificent,

Must have been in the pre season comp? Skinner never kicked a goal against the Swans.

[Twodogs]

Must have been in the pre season comp? Skinner never kicked a goal against the Swans.


May have been a preseason game. I was watching on TV. It was an interstate game on Foxtel because I'm at my mates house because I don't have Foxtel and I think we are in "thank god footy is back mode!" We are kicking to the right of the screen. Maybe it's west coast? First thing I think when Zeph goes to pick it up is "two hands for beginners" and all off a sudden he's got it in two hands and he's bought himself 5 metres of space to play with. One of the defenders realises what is happening and falls over and Zeph goes bang. TBH the opposition is pretty peripheral in my memory, it's just Zeph and some crash test dummies.

[mjp]

This is where I say it is unbelievable to compare Liam Ryan and what he has been able to do with Zeph Skinner and what he was able to do.

They aren't in the same ball park in terms of proven ability to deliver on the field. They aren't playing the same SPORT.

Questioning Ryan's fitness base etc - sure, fine. But he has not been in an AFL system yet.

On the rest of the recent posts, an outcome of a recent sitdown between a lot (all) of the recent aboriginal retirees was the request for an ALO at every AFL club - I believe only West Coast and Port have them today...whether it has legs or not only time will tell but it makes nothing but sense to me...

[hujsh]

This is where I say it is unbelievable to compare Liam Ryan and what he has been able to do with Zeph Skinner and what he was able to do.

They aren't in the same ball park in terms of proven ability to deliver on the field. They aren't playing the same SPORT.

Questioning Ryan's fitness base etc - sure, fine. But he has not been in an AFL system yet.

On the rest of the recent posts, an outcome of a recent sitdown between a lot (all) of the recent aboriginal retirees was the request for an ALO at every AFL club - I believe only West Coast and Port have them today...whether it has legs or not only time will tell but it makes nothing but sense to me...

To be fair I don't know that people are necessarily comparing the two. I may be forgetting a post where that was the case but as I see it the Skinner talk seems to be more about the club's ability to develop and retain indigenous players in general.

[Cyberdoggie]

Changing topic slightly, what are peoples thoughts on Aaron Naughton from Peel. MJP?

I'm trying to guess what Dalrymple might pick for our top selections, and the common theme I believe is they have to show potential growth, or have shown that recently.

Looking at the top draft choices, Naughton springs to mind because he is the youngest, not yet 18, he's an intercept marker, tall defender (194cm), likes to run off and break lines, has a booming left foot and can kick on the right as well, good vision at spotting targets up field, played 7 senior games for Peel and didn't look out of place against AFL players, averages 7 marks a game.

This sounds like a Dalrymple special to me, and with a lack of quality tall marking players, and losing Murphy/Boyd, there is a void to fill for this sort.
The main thing against him is he's a West Aussie. Apart from the specimen we haven't picked many up in recent years.

Anyone seen much of him and do you think he's an option for us?

[jazzadogs]

Changing topic slightly, what are peoples thoughts on Aaron Naughton from Peel. MJP?

I'm trying to guess what Dalrymple might pick for our top selections, and the common theme I believe is they have to show potential growth, or have shown that recently.

Looking at the top draft choices, Naughton springs to mind because he is the youngest, not yet 18, he's an intercept marker, tall defender (194cm), likes to run off and break lines, has a booming left foot and can kick on the right as well, good vision at spotting targets up field, played 7 senior games for Peel and didn't look out of place against AFL players, averages 7 marks a game.

This sounds like a Dalrymple special to me, and with a lack of quality tall marking players, and losing Murphy/Boyd, there is a void to fill for this sort.
The main thing against him is he's a West Aussie. Apart from the specimen we haven't picked many up in recent years.

Anyone seen much of him and do you think he's an option for us?

I think unless he is clearly the best available, he doesn't fit our list composition.
With Cordy, Adams, Trengove, Collins and Roberts, plus Morris, as key defenders I think there are other areas of need.

It looks like there will be more athletic running players with good skills available, and these should be our priority, especially at 9. He won't make it to 16, but if did we should consider him there as best available.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think unless he is clearly the best available, he doesn't fit our list composition.
With Cordy, Adams, Trengove, Collins and Roberts, plus Morris, as key defenders I think there are other areas of need.

It looks like there will be more athletic running players with good skills available, and these should be our priority, especially at 9. He won't make it to 16, but if did we should consider him there as best available.

Agree with this and I have stated numerous times we have a burning desire for pace and skill, so I would be disappointed if these weaknesses were overlooked.

Having said that, although the profile of our list reads tall, how many are good? Cordy is a second/third defender and a good one, Adams is very good but injury prone and Trengove should be solid. The rest are almost not worth considering - Roberts is depth at best and was overlooked for a raw Lewis Young, Collins is slow and injury prone and Morris is gone after 2018.

Despite the above, I do hope we overlook Naughton because we have major ball movement/pace issues.

[dukedog]

Not sure what plans are for young. But he looked good in defence. He's a big kid. I'm with a few others. I think we need some zip for the forward line and wing. Good users and fast.