Welcome to the Bulldogs - Tim English

[jeemak]

Find a way to get Grundy in as part of that and I'm listening.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Find a way to get Grundy in as part of that and I'm listening.

Now you're talking!

BT, to the list management thead!

[bulldogtragic]

Find a way to get Grundy in as part of that and I'm listening.

You mean a $600,000 a season (to them) now VFL player who has a lack of ‘forward craft’. Dees could salary cap dump him and he’d be a first ruck again. Everyone wins.

[G-Mo77]

Unlike last season with Dunkley, West Coast have the assets to make a good deal that will suit us. Last season we got stuck with a barrow load of horse manure. I think English is gone personally and West Coast willing to throw down huge coin is decent outcome for us, it's not ideal obviously but we could come out of this pretty well.

[Sedat]

English & our 1st pick for Pick 1 & Barass.

Where do I sign up?
We could then stop barracking against Brisbane every week and instead hope they go on a run and win the flag.

[Testekill]

Eagles will never trade pick 1, they'd most likely try and turn it into two or three first rounders and then flog off the less valuable ones to us.

[mjp]

English & our 1st pick for Pick 1 & Barass.

Where do I sign up?

Why would Barrass do that?
He lives in the Western suburbs (Claremont kid) in a massive house with his wife and young baby. His whole family are around him...

What exactly are we selling him on?

I know we talk about this stuff but if West Coast want to trade Barrass then the player needs to agree to it. I don't think the rules are correct but they ARE the rules. I know they are battling but he has a premiership medal sitting in a cabinet at home someplace and won the club B&F last year...

If I was him and was thinking about coming to the Dogs, I would want assurance that English would be PLAYING FOR THE DOGS. Having lived the life with Bailey Williams (WCE version) this year, I would be 'yeah, having a good ruckman is sorta important...if they swap me for English, wont they get worse - AND I will be on the other side of the country to my family...how will that be fun??'

[bulldogtragic]

Eagles will never trade pick 1, they'd most likely try and turn it into two or three first rounders and then flog off the less valuable ones to us.

Depends how they view him and his value?

Luke Jackson = Pick 4, 13 & 22.

If English is worth the same. Are those picks worth Pick 1?

Add Barass for Pick 12, or even 12 & 16-18 and get back 19 off them assuming Twomey is right about Croft.

Then WCE could argue in a sense they got the equivalent of picks 4, 12, 13, 16-18 & 22 - for - Picks 1, 19 & Barass.

Take out the two early seconds (19 & 22)

Pick 1 for Pick 4, plus three more first rounders for the downgrade and Barass. While in actuality, they have the AA ruckman who is under contract plus two first rounders

Not bad if the Jackson value of last/this year is the precedent underpinning value from both clubs for Tim.

My preference is to keep Tim on a fair salary. But if anyone wants him, it’s absolutely overs or no trade.

[Mofra]

As I said in the other thread, add in Barass for whatever pick/s back. Get another mature KPD in free agency. Go get a mature first ruck on the cheap (even Grundy would be cheap) and still get Croft and possibly Lual.

Big boys: Liam Jones, Barass, McKay/Himmelberg, Gardner
Third talls (being younger): Buss, JOD & Cleary
Smalls: Dale, Ed, JJ, Gags, Lual, VDM
Mids: Stocked & Reid
Wings: Williams, Poulter, Baker, Scott, spare mid
Tall Forwards: Naughton, JUH, Darcy, Lobb (2 years), Croft
Mid: Weightman, Reid as he develops
Small: Arty, Clarke

Kids: Reid, Croft & Lual et al

Need a ruck and a Lohmann type small forward. A good winger would top it off.

Clear out salaries of Bruce, Keath, TOB, Crozier & Duryea.

Keep Smith and sell him and Reid leading the mids as soon as they can.


English needs to return overs. So we should be pretty greedy if the rumour has meat?
Swans apparently going hard for Barrass which would mean quite the clean out from West Coast. I don't think we're in the hunt.

Back to Timmy, they're is a lot of sunk cost on developing a ruck.
Considering the quality of other rucks that went in the same draft later than him - Sean Darcy in the second round, Draper Marshall and McInerney as rookies - if English wants out it really does put the drafting of rucks in the first round into perspective.

[Sedat]

The only way I would entertain any move on English at the end of this season is:

a) if he wants to leave immediately (and then screw West Coke down to as favourable trade for us as possible while English is still contracted)
b) if we can then engineer a low-outlay ($$ and draft pick) trade for Grundy as English's direct replacement at the same time

[Grantysghost]

Grundy sucks.

Let's keep Tim.

[G-Mo77]

Grundy sucks.

Let's keep Tim.

Is the #1 pick (Reid) and Grundy more appealing?

[bulldogtragic]

Swans apparently going hard for Barrass which would mean quite the clean out from West Coast. I don't think we're in the hunt.

Back to Timmy, they're is a lot of sunk cost on developing a ruck.
Considering the quality of other rucks that went in the same draft later than him - Sean Darcy in the second round, Draper Marshall and McInerney as rookies - if English wants out it really does put the drafting of rucks in the first round into perspective.

Yep.

[Sedat]

Grundy sucks.

Let's keep Tim.
We are in the middle of the Bont golden years and we cannot have a young/non-competitive/limited ruckman at the helm.

If English wants to leave, we have to get a Grundy calibre player as his replacement. He doesn't suck at all when he's the no 1 ruckman - he was excellent in that run of early games this season when Gawn was out injured. He definitely sucks as 2nd ruck/forward.

[Grantysghost]

We are in the middle of the Bont golden years and we cannot have a young/non-competitive/limited ruckman at the helm.

If English wants to leave, we have to get a Grundy calibre player as his replacement. He doesn't suck at all when he's the no 1 ruckman - he was excellent in that run of early games this season when Gawn was out injured. He definitely sucks as 2nd ruck/forward.

He plays for Casey.

We've got Sweet Sedat!

I'm being flippant.

Grundy goes ok, I just don't think he's half as good as Tim.

[Mantis]

Why would Barrass do that?
He lives in the Western suburbs (Claremont kid) in a massive house with his wife and young baby. His whole family are around him...

What exactly are we selling him on?

I know we talk about this stuff but if West Coast want to trade Barrass then the player needs to agree to it. I don't think the rules are correct but they ARE the rules. I know they are battling but he has a premiership medal sitting in a cabinet at home someplace and won the club B&F last year...

If I was him and was thinking about coming to the Dogs, I would want assurance that English would be PLAYING FOR THE DOGS. Having lived the life with Bailey Williams (WCE version) this year, I would be 'yeah, having a good ruckman is sorta important...if they swap me for English, wont they get worse - AND I will be on the other side of the country to my family...how will that be fun??'

I have no idea if Barrass is interested, I purely was responding to BT's comments and came up with what would be the ideal solution if English wanted to depart.

[Axe Man]

Why would West Coast be in a rush to pay overs for Tim this year when they can just wait 12 months and get him for less? It's not like they will be challenging next season. They must take pick 1 to the draft or split it into multiple first round picks. I don't buy this rumour.

[bornadog]

Why would West Coast be in a rush to pay overs for Tim this year when they can just wait 12 months and get him for less? It's not like they will be challenging next season. They must take pick 1 to the draft or split it into multiple first round picks. I don't buy this rumour.

It's not even a rumour, it is people making things up.

Unless Tim is unhappy, no way we would even contemplate trading him out. He is having his best season as he starts to mature. He is 25 years old and can only improve.

[mjp]

I have no idea if Barrass is interested, I purely was responding to BT's comments and came up with what would be the ideal solution if English wanted to depart.

Yeah - I get that mate...I was just responding 'in general' to the the reports and your post was the nearest one.

I guess it was the point on 'If we could lure Barrass' then playing alongside English, Bont, Naughts etc would be the attraction. Trading away the good players to get him? That makes us LESS attractive because if he wanted to move he would want to move to WIN...

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It's not even a rumour, it is people making things up.

Unless Tim is unhappy, no way we would even contemplate trading him out. He is having his best season as he starts to mature. He is 25 years old and can only improve.

The non-conpetitiveness and limited ruck ability that Sedat has called are major limitations on English. It's killing us already. The ruck work could well improve but the non competitiveness is unlikely to.

I'd like to keep English as he has a tremendous skillset but we'd be a far superior team if he got even slightly more aggressive.

[The bulldog tragician]

Admittedly I’m the person who is totally disinterested in draft and recruitment machinations but it feels like on here we readily accept losing top talent coming into their prime for … what? The draft can be fools Gold. I’d hope we can sell something, a shared vision, a great club that is not far off contending, state of the art facilities, mateship, to young guns we’ve been patient with instead of pretty quickly accepting we won’t be in the race. How can we do that better rather than conceding is something we could work on.

[Grantysghost]

The non-conpetitiveness and limited ruck ability that Sedat has called are major limitations on English. It's killing us already. The ruck work could well improve but the non competitiveness is unlikely to.

I'd like to keep English as he has a tremendous skillset but we'd be a far superior team if he got even slightly more aggressive.

Is he really that limited, or are we seeing something that isn't there to suit an argument that may no longer exist?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Is he really that limited, or are we seeing something that isn't there to suit an argument that may no longer exist?

Well....not sure what argument youre referrong to but his ruckwork may be poor due to his lack of competitiveness which I think is the major issue. Watching him play frustrates me to no end knowing what he could be capable of doing if he just got a little agro.

[Grantysghost]

Well....not sure what argument youre referrong to but his ruckwork may be poor due to his lack of competitiveness which I think is the major issue. Watching him play frustrates me to no end knowing what he could be capable of doing if he just got a little agro.

Yeah I don't get that. He's super competitive to me.

We are stuffed if he leaves and West Coast will be able to blow us out of the water.

[bornadog]

Yeah I don't get that. He's super competitive to me.

We are stuffed if he leaves and West Coast will be able to blow us out of the water.

Spot on Granty - I don't get it at all.

Besides Tim is a happy boy

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1c3iu3WcAEIbYi?format=jpg&name=large

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yeah I don't get that. He's super competitive to me.

We are stuffed if he leaves and West Coast will be able to blow us out of the water.

I guarantee you can pick out at least 2 or 3 times tomorrow night, contests that he should have a major influence over yet his presence will hardly be felt. For a guy his size, he should be more Max Gawn in ruck and marking contets than Caleb Daniel. Boundary throw ins are a prime example.

I'll caveat all this by saying I think he's still a good player despite this drawback. I just think he can be a lot better and more imposing on games.

[lemmon]

Yeah I don't get that. He's super competitive to me.

We are stuffed if he leaves and West Coast will be able to blow us out of the water.

Agree with that. It's also a completely subjective 'eye' thing, but I don't watch English go into the D50 hole, run other rucks into the ground or average 4.5 tackles a game and see anything other than a competitor and great athlete in his prime. That performance against Geelong really stood out for me - I thought he put the side on his back and tried to drag us over the line in a way that no one else except Bont is capable of in our 22.

I feel like we might not know what we have until it's gone, with big Tim.

[bornadog]

I guarantee you can pick out at least 2 or 3 times tomorrow night, contests that he should have a major influence over yet his presence will hardly be felt. For a guy his size, he should be more Max Gawn in ruck and marking contets than Caleb Daniel. Boundary throw ins are a prime example.

I'll caveat all this by saying I think he's still a good player despite this drawback. I just think he can be a lot better and more imposing on games.

Yet he is 4th for rucks in contested Poss.

[Axe Man]

I guarantee you can pick out at least 2 or 3 times tomorrow night, contests that he should have a major influence over yet his presence will hardly be felt. For a guy his size, he should be more Max Gawn in ruck and marking contets than Caleb Daniel. Boundary throw ins are a prime example.

I'll caveat all this by saying I think he's still a good player despite this drawback. I just think he can be a lot better and more imposing on games.

I also disagree with this view. Sounds like you are describing the 2021 and prior version of English rather than the 2023 model. Nobody wins every contest, every ruck will get outmaneuvered, but I don't notice him being easily pushed around or not trying anymore.

[Mantis]

I also disagree with this view. Sounds like you are describing the 2021 and prior version of English rather than the 2023 model. Nobody wins every contest, every ruck will get outmaneuvered, but I don't notice him being easily pushed around or not trying anymore.

Agree with that, he doesn't get outmaneuvered anymore as he has the physical capabilities to compete but he does get out-positioned, and I feel bt&t is referencing the fact that Tim is often behind at boundary throw-ins which means his opponent often has a direct path to the ball.

[jeemak]

Sometimes he puts in shit efforts when he loses concentration and that's OK. Nobody's perfect and it's happening less, so as long as its improving that's all I can ask.

He's been excellent across the board this year and would be sorely missed.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Agree with that, he doesn't get outmaneuvered anymore as he has the physical capabilities to compete but he does get out-positioned, and I feel bt&t is referencing the fact that Tim is often behind at boundary throw-ins which means his opponent often has a direct path to the ball.

Yes this. It happens too often. He also tends to sag off in marking contets as well. He also doesnt impose himself enough in around the ground ruck rontests. The game against port in adelaide was bad, especially when Lycett went off.

This doesnt happen as often as it used to, i agree but he's often the tallest guy on the ground and needs to show that. I'm happy with his progression. I just hope it continues.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yet he is 4th for rucks in contested Poss.

It's like saying we're great at kicking goals because we dominate inside 50s.

[bornadog]

Yes this. It happens too often. He also tends to sag off in marking contets as well. He also doesnt impose himself enough in around the ground ruck rontests. The game against port in adelaide was bad, especially when Lycett went off.

This doesnt happen as often as it used to, i agree but he's often the tallest guy on the ground and needs to show that. I'm happy with his progression. I just hope it continues.


It's like saying we're great at kicking goals because we dominate inside 50s.

bad analogy - I don't get it. If he is good at cont poss then he is contesting.

He is also the number one for disposals by all ruckman - so he gets alot of the ball around the ground.

[azabob]

Sometimes he puts in shit efforts when he loses concentration and that's OK. Nobody's perfect and it's happening less, so as long as its improving that's all I can ask.

He's been excellent across the board this year and would be sorely missed.

Hang on... you've been telling me for years you are perfect...

[jeemak]

Hang on... you've been telling me for years you are perfect...

That's my one imperfection.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

bad analogy - I don't get it. If he is good at cont poss then he is contesting.

He is also the number one for disposals by all ruckman - so he gets alot of the ball around the ground.

I didn't realise contested possessions were awarded in ruck contests.

[Grantysghost]

That's my one imperfection.

I thought I was wrong once, however I was mistaken.

[EasternWest]

That's my one imperfection.

That, and you can't spell "defensive".

[bornadog]

That, and you can't spell "defensive".

He is American :D

[EasternWest]

Hang on... you've been telling me for years you are perfect...

No he said "prefect". When you line that up with his private school history it all just makes sense.


He is American :D

Off with his head.

[jeemak]

No he said "prefect". When you line that up with his private school history it all just makes sense.


Off with his head.

This made me laugh.

[hujsh]

Is there anything this guy is actually good at? Not good below his knees, not that great in the ruck, only really has good disposal with lots of time and space but under any pressure isn't really any good, can get disposals as long as his opponent doesn't put any effort into preventing him from doing so. Can we still get pick one for him?

[bulldogtragic]

Is there anything this guy is actually good at? Not good below his knees, not that great in the ruck, only really has good disposal with lots of time and space but under any pressure isn't really any good, can get disposals as long as his opponent doesn't put any effort into preventing him from doing so. Can we still get pick one for him?

Nah pay him $7M to keep him…

[macca]

His good at demanding to be number 1 ruck but is putrid against any Ruckman that provides a contests . Today he was beaten by williams , the first 2 goals pretty much summed it up
His agility allows him to run to marking contests as an outlet out of defense as one of his valuable points . This could be may be covered if some of the talks stand up and take this role .
I be inclined to trade him and get first round Compo draft pick

[azabob]

Is there anything this guy is actually good at? Not good below his knees, not that great in the ruck, only really has good disposal with lots of time and space but under any pressure isn't really any good, can get disposals as long as his opponent doesn't put any effort into preventing him from doing so. Can we still get pick one for him?

Apparently hit outs to advantage.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Said it for years. This guy is a midfielder trapped in a rucks body. No amount of stats will convince me otherwise.

I couldn't trade him quick enough. Brings nothing you actually need from a ruck - his game is luxury - nobody NEEDS a ruck to get 20+ disposals. You need a ruck to be a physical presence, English is the opposite.

[angelopetraglia]

Yes. I have seen enough. I would trade Tim English. He is never going to become Max Gawn. He does not have the killer instinct. Big men need a bit of mongrel. He is too nice.

[merantau]

I think he is very over rated. He is easily pushed aside, rarely gets in the prime position at boundary throw ins, doesn't take enough marks, hits the ball to the opposition too often and provides no protection for smaller players. We get 2 good performances every 6 games from him. My patience is running micron thin. Sorry Tim.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

We need to make a big play for Draper. He is the man for the job. Maybe even trade for a bloke called Sweet that can’t get a game.

[macca]

We need to make a big play for Draper. He is the man for the job. Maybe even trade for a bloke called Sweet that can’t get a game.

WE have Sweet , put the challenge to him, to become the angry, power, ruck prescence.

McInerny from Brisbane has a high handball to kick ratio, as his job is to provide a contest in the ruck, and provide it to other better disposal players. Be a marking Prescence , or at least halve it when its there to be one. His not a superstar, just gets the job done. They recruited him from VFL, pick 37 in the 2017 rookie draft.

Sweet , 23rd draft pick in the 2018 AFL Rookie draft. 10 games , Oscar has played 102 games . Do Brisbane have different parameters for ruckman than us?

I lost it with English today, when he got pushed aside by Williams/Allen so many times. His really not a ruckman more a midfielder like some have mentioned.

[hujsh]

Is there anything this guy is actually good at? Not good below his knees, not that great in the ruck, only really has good disposal with lots of time and space but under any pressure isn't really any good, can get disposals as long as his opponent doesn't put any effort into preventing him from doing so. Can we still get pick one for him?

I guess pick 2

[bornadog]

Tim English

21 Disposal, 9 Marks, 51 Hitouts (11 to Advantage)

Not sure what else he can do as a ruckman

[angelopetraglia]

Tim English

21 Disposal, 9 Marks, 51 Hitouts (11 to Advantage)

Not sure what else he can do as a ruckman

a) Create a greater physical presence
b) Be more reliable in critical clearances when the game is there to be won
c) Compete more reliably against stronger ruckman
d) Be more like Max Gawn

[merantau]

51 hit outs, 11 to advantage - yes, but whose advantage!

Seriously, I do see him hitting the ball directly to the opposition far too often for my liking. What happened to the other 41 hit outs? They went nowhere? Or to congestion for another stoppage? Or out over the boundary? I just don't see that we are getting much advantage from his ruck work. And as regards his physicality- he's had a few years to work on that and I don't see much change. Am I expecting too much from him? He cost us two out of the first three goals they scored.

[DOG GOD]

English should be playing the role that Lobb is. There was no need to trade for Lobb. But it was either Tim?s ego wanting to be the #1 ruck, or the MC incompetence to allow that to happen has seen Tim probably lose more games for us than he?s actually won. Seems like a nice guy, and there lies the problem on field. He has ZERO mongrel.
He had shown he has a good fwd craft. Moves well, leads well and can take a solid mark. Fairly accurate kick. He’s just a player being played out of his best position…like a lot of players.

[Scraggers]

Then why is he in All Australian contention??
Two weeks ago, he was touted as the best in the league and the benchmark for all other ruckmen.

[hujsh]

Tim English

21 Disposal, 9 Marks, 51 Hitouts (11 to Advantage)

Not sure what else he can do as a ruckman

When you watch the game, not looking at the stat sheet, do you sit back and think 'gee English is really having an impact on this game' or do you see the stats after the game and think 'I guess he must have played well, got a fair bit of the ball and he did better than I thought at the hitouts'?

For me it's the latter. I'm no longer convinced I'm just missing his impact. I think he's a supercoach ruck. Great on paper. All the media talking heads will see the stats and say 'yep he's the AA ruckman' but realistically what impact has his 'breakout year' had on our performance? Do we look any better in the middle? Do we look more dangerous? Is there any major correlation between games where English has performed better on the stat sheet and our team performance?

[bornadog]

When you watch the game, not looking at the stat sheet, do you sit back and think 'gee English is really having an impact on this game' or do you see the stats after the game and think 'I guess he must have played well, got a fair bit of the ball and he did better than I thought at the hitouts'?

For me it's the latter. I'm no longer convinced I'm just missing his impact. I think he's a supercoach ruck. Great on paper. All the media talking heads will see the stats and say 'yep he's the AA ruckman' but realistically what impact has his 'breakout year' had on our performance? Do we look any better in the middle? Do we look more dangerous? Is there any major correlation between games where English has performed better on the stat sheet and our team performance?
I watch a guy that is 205xcm really impacting a game. Maybe get to a few games.

Criticism coming from when we lose. Honestly Bulldog supports only ones not happy with him. He will be AA

[angelopetraglia]

Then why is he in All Australian contention??
Two weeks ago, he was touted as the best in the league and the benchmark for all other ruckmen.

You are going into a massive cut throat final. Are you taking Tim English against the other premier Rucks in the game?

English or Gawn?

English or Darcy?

English or Marshall?

English or Witts?

English or Draper?

English or McInerney?

[hujsh]

I watch a guy that is 205xcm really impacting a game. Maybe get to a few games.

Criticism coming from when we lose. Honestly Bulldog supports only ones not happy with him. He will be AA

Yeah I've seen him have virtually no impact live. It's actually easier on the TV TBH. How else would you like to dismiss me?

[GVGjr]

You are going into a massive cut throat final. Are you taking Tim English against the other premier Rucks in the game?

English or Gawn?

English or Darcy?

English or Marshall?

English or Witts?

English or Draper?

English or McInerney?

Outside of Gawn, I'm okay with backing Tim.

[angelopetraglia]

Outside of Gawn, I'm okay with backing Tim.

Fair enough. In a big final, I'm not taking Tim before Gawn, Darcy, Marshall, Draper and possibly the Big O and Witts, just for physical presence and intimidation.

[bornadog]

You are going into a massive cut throat final. Are you taking Tim English against the other premier Rucks in the game?

English or Gawn?

English or Darcy?

English or Marshall?

English or Witts?

English or Draper?

English or McInerney?

Unfair comparison when Gawn has played 200 games and is more mature. At the same age, Tim more than stands upagainst a Gawn

At the same age:



Player Statistics Comparison





Timothy English (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--timothy-english)
Name
Max Gawn (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-melbourne-demons--max-gawn)


Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)
Team
Melbourne Demons (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons)


Ruck
Position
Ruck


107
Career Games
200


South Fremantle
Origin
Sandringham Dragons


August 10, 1997
Date of Birth
December 30, 1991


26yr 0mth
Age
Turned 26 in 2017


207cm
Height
209cm


103kg
Weight
111kg


2016 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2016&t=N&s=P)
Last Drafted In
2009 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2009&t=N&s=P)


Round 1, Pick #19
Last Draft Position
Round 3, Pick #34


Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)
Last Drafted By
Melbourne Demons (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons)


2023
Stats for Season
2017


22
Games
13


11.3
Kicks
5.9


7.9
Handballs
6.4


19.2
Disposals
12.3


6.4
Marks
3.5


0.6
Goals
0.3


0.2
Behinds
0.3


4.4
Tackles
2.8


31.6
Hitouts
35.9


3.3
Inside 50s
2.0


0.2
Goal Assists
0.2


1.8
Frees For
1.4


1.4
Frees Against
1.9


9.1
Contested Possessions
6.8


11.1
Uncontested Possessions
6.2


14.0
Effective Disposals
8.5


72.9%
Disposal Efficiency %
69.1%


3.4
Clangers
2.9


1.2
Contested Marks
1.7


0.6
Marks Inside 50
0.7


3.3
Clearances
2.7


1.9
Rebound 50s
1.0


4.3
One Percenters
3.1


0.4
Bounces
0


85.7
Time On Ground %
79.5


1.2
Centre Clearances
0.9


2.1
Stoppage Clearances
1.9


5.4
Score Involvements
3.9


255.9
Metres Gained
126.6


3.2
Turnovers
1.9


4.4
Intercepts
2.8


0.5
Tackles Inside 50
0.7


119.6
AFL Fantasy Score
85.8


129.1
Supercoach Score
91.6

[bornadog]

Yeah I've seen him have virtually no impact live. It's actually easier on the TV TBH. How else would you like to dismiss me?

Sorry not trying to dismiss you.

I just can't believe the bagging and treatment of Tim by many on this board, which I believe is unwarranted.

[angelopetraglia]

Unfair comparison when Gawn has played 200 games and is more mature. At the same age, Tim more than stands upagainst a Gawn



Agree that statically Tim will stack up. He gets plenty of the ball. He covers the ground. The knock on him is not his ability to get the footy.

The criticism is in the clinches is he tougher enough? Is he physically dominated in big games? Does he have the killer hard instinct that the best Ruckman have?

[GVGjr]

Fair enough. In a big final, I'm not taking Tim before Gawn, Darcy, Marshall, Draper and possibly the Big O and Witts, just for physical presence and intimidation.

This has been Tim's breakout season but is there more that he can achieve? Absolutely there is. Handling physical opposition ruckman might be the next phase of his development.

Your post wanted us to compare Tim in a finals and yet 3 of those players mentioned aren't in the finals.
Do we lose much in these match-ups?
Cameron from the Pies, McInerney from the Lions, not sure who Port will use, Gawn from Melbourne, Pittonet from Carlton, Marshall from the Saints, Hickey from the Swans and Briggs from GWS.

I don't mind Tim's chances against those candidates.

[angelopetraglia]

This has been Tim's breakout season but is there more that he can achieve? Absolutely there is. Handling physical opposition ruckman might be the next phase of his development.

Your post wanted us to compare Tim in a finals and yet 3 of those players mentioned aren't in the finals.
Do we lose much in these match-ups?
Cameron from the Pies, McInerney from the Lions, not sure who Port will use, Gawn from Melbourne, Pittonet from Carlton, Marshall from the Saints, Hickey from the Swans and Briggs from GWS.

I don't mind Tim's chances against those candidates.

It is a valid point. Against those specific Ruckman in a final which is often a much more contested game, more physical and Ruckman play a crucial role in the repeated stoppages.

Cameron or English? English.

Big O or English? English. But concerned Big O could work him over.

Gawn or English? Gawn.

Pittonet or English? English.

Marshall or English? Marshall.

In the recent era when we played our best footy in the first half of 2021. When did we look most dangerous? When we were playing two Ruckman and Tim was playing the forward resting role. No coincidence IMHO.

[jeemak]

Tim (or Sweet) historically loses the hit outs and we have excellent clearance statistics and scoring from clearance statistics, and then he has a season where he wins more hit outs and does really well from a hit outs to advantage perspective but we don't do as well in scores from clearances, and he's to blame.

Outside of the odd boundary throw in I think rucks at stoppages aren't really the main game, and that the mix of players around the ball and how they play together has a bigger impact.

We've had a homogenous approach to clearance work with less diversity and it's been to our detriment. It's resulted in opposition set-ups finding us predictable, and us having less options for times in which one of Bont or Libba aren't in the thick of it.

Focusing on Tim who's having a great year is missing the point for mine and I'd like to see us get our clearance game back to going how it was when Tim wasn't winning hit outs.

What we really need from him is for him to continue to get fitter and stronger, and not have lapses around the ground that really impact his effectiveness.

[Grantysghost]

We need a proper ruck because Tim is AA and we are the number one clearance side?

Or... Because we want it to be 2009 again and have a physical presence.

These arguments are perplexing.

It's like a bad rumour somebody started as a gag and everyone replicates.

[Grantysghost]

Sorry not trying to dismiss you.

I just can't believe the bagging and treatment of Tim by many on this board, which I believe is unwarranted.

Word.

[angelopetraglia]

We need a proper ruck because Tim is AA and we are the number one clearance side?

Or... Because we want it to be 2009 again and have a physical presence.

These arguments are perplexing.

It's like a bad rumour somebody started as a gag and everyone replicates.

We are the number #1 stoppage clearance team. We are the number #14 centre clearance team.

[Grantysghost]

We are the number #1 stoppage clearance team. We are the number #14 centre clearance team.

#1! :)

[Grantysghost]

#1! :)


#2 total.

Centre clearances are pretty dependant on goals for and against too.

In all seriousness it points me to the fact our midfield without the extra struggles. Stoppages we usually have an extra.

[angelopetraglia]

#2 total.

Centre clearances are pretty dependant on goals for and against too.

In all seriousness it points me to the fact our midfield without the extra struggles. Stoppages we usually have an extra.

For differences in centre clearance we are number #4. We average one per game more than the opposition. For difference in stoppages we are number #1 with an average of four more per game that than opposition.

[macca]

Tim English

21 Disposal, 9 Marks, 51 Hitouts (11 to Advantage)

Not sure what else he can do as a ruckman


the stat I Was looking for was HO for williams ,
Williams : 41 HO, 9 HTA
English : 51 HO, 11 HTA

ok English won the ruck contest based on those stats by 2 HTA. Yeah maybe we should pay him the $1 million dollar a year.
But it is Willimas , playing his 15th games in his 5th season( 5th game this season, zero in his first season).

thanks @bornadog for showing me how these stats are found: https://www.afl.com.au/stats/leaders?category=Stoppages&seasonId=52&roundId=780&roundNumber=0&sortColumn=hitoutsToAdvantage&sortDirection=descending&positions=All&teams=All&benchmarking=false&dataType=totals&playerOneId=null&playerTwoId=null

[hujsh]

Sorry not trying to dismiss you.

I just can't believe the bagging and treatment of Tim by many on this board, which I believe is unwarranted.

Fair enough.

I've been ready to get on the Tim Train for what it's worth and have been keen to embrace the numbers like what you posted as evidence he's doing well and he's 'The Guy' for us but... it's so hard watching him sometimes. I know he can get disposals but I don't want him to have the ball in most circumstances. Especially if he has to go back over the mark. He has some decent HTA numbers but it feels like most of the time those HTA end up as snaps forward rather than substantial breakaway clearances. Meanwhile a number of the other hitouts he wins are getting shanked by opposition mids.

He also doesn't often seem to provide that down the line contest for us and it was mentioned on the weekend he's had something like 12 marks inside 50 all year.

He can take a grab behind the ball somewhat decently though I'll admit that.

[jeemak]

Williams took a single mark versus Tim's nine, had half the disposals Tim had and didn't kick a goal like Tim did.

We have to be mindful of how we compare Tim to other rucks as he's more rounded than they are.

[hujsh]

This has been Tim's breakout season but is there more that he can achieve? Absolutely there is. Handling physical opposition ruckman might be the next phase of his development.

Your post wanted us to compare Tim in a finals and yet 3 of those players mentioned aren't in the finals.
Do we lose much in these match-ups?
Cameron from the Pies, McInerney from the Lions, not sure who Port will use, Gawn from Melbourne, Pittonet from Carlton, Marshall from the Saints, Hickey from the Swans and Briggs from GWS.

I don't mind Tim's chances against those candidates.

I'd almost back Tim in against Gawn more than the other 'lesser' ruckmen. Kind of like how Lycett absolutely nullified him mid year I don't have faith in him if his opponent gives him respect and is a somewhat capable ruckman (not a part timer).

I think important context for all this is the idea that he's supposedly expecting to be paid a million a year. If it was being reported he wanted $600k or something it'd be harder to criticise him but he is asking to be paid like a legitimate superstar so it kind of begs the question 'is he actually that good?'

[jeemak]

Who has been more consistent this year? English or Bont?

I get the feeling we're all over Tim for a game in which he doesn't have it all his own way, and ignore a lot of what he does well in those same games.

It's like we expect perfection from him, when in reality some are going to get him, others won't, and other times those things will be mixed around next time the game's played.

Carey and Jakovich, who won those contests? Does the latter being considered someone who got the better of Carey diminish Carey's stature? It's an extreme example but with the ruck it's a genuine one on one battle (outside of small forwards vs. small defenders one of the only genuine one on one battles left in the game), and in some instances the players will bring different things to the table that balance the scales.

[bulldogtragic]

Who has been more consistent this year? English or Bont?

Truck question.

Darcy Parish.

[jeemak]

Truck question.

Darcy Parish.

Don't bring Bailey Williams into this. RE his consistency that's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.

[bulldogtragic]

Don't bring Bailey Williams into this. RE his consistency that's a rabbit hole I don't want to go down.

Probably why he has no contract for next year signed…

[jeemak]

Probably why he has no contract for next year signed…

Let alone any jungle drums beating about him re a move back to SA.

He's been one of the major disappointments this year, given how well he was playing in the first half of the season at times. He's actually the type of player we should be heaping the pressure on to improve and be consistent.

[bulldogtragic]

Let alone any jungle drums beating about him re a move back to SA.

He's been one of the major disappointments this year, given how well he was playing in the first half of the season at times. He's actually the type of player we should be heaping the pressure on to improve and be consistent.

If he gets no interest, I think he’s going to be disappointed in our final offer somehow.

(7 years at $700,000 a year probably)

[jeemak]

If he gets no interest, I think he’s going to be disappointed in our final offer somehow.

(7 years at $700,000 a year probably)

Am I sensing some frustration with your boy Sammy Power?

[bulldogtragic]

Am I sensing some frustration with your boy Sammy Power?

I’m holding back a bit on the chance he’s been overridden by club decisions. He’s usually very good at trade time, but there’s some decisions that are just indefensible in recent times. But if they are all of his making then yep, he’s fair game with Bevo, players, Innes and the admins.

[Danjul]

Unfair comparison when Gawn has played 200 games and is more mature. At the same age, Tim more than stands upagainst a Gawn

At the same age:



Player Statistics Comparison





Timothy English (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--timothy-english)
Name
Max Gawn (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-melbourne-demons--max-gawn)


Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)
Team
Melbourne Demons (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons)


Ruck
Position
Ruck


107
Career Games
200


South Fremantle
Origin
Sandringham Dragons


August 10, 1997
Date of Birth
December 30, 1991


26yr 0mth
Age
Turned 26 in 2017


207cm
Height
209cm


103kg
Weight
111kg


2016 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2016&t=N&s=P)
Last Drafted In
2009 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2009&t=N&s=P)


Round 1, Pick #19
Last Draft Position
Round 3, Pick #34


Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)
Last Drafted By
Melbourne Demons (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons)


2023
Stats for Season
2017


22
Games
13


11.3
Kicks
5.9


7.9
Handballs
6.4


19.2
Disposals
12.3


6.4
Marks
3.5


0.6
Goals
0.3


0.2
Behinds
0.3


4.4
Tackles
2.8


31.6
Hitouts
35.9


3.3
Inside 50s
2.0


0.2
Goal Assists
0.2


1.8
Frees For
1.4


1.4
Frees Against
1.9


9.1
Contested Possessions
6.8


11.1
Uncontested Possessions
6.2


14.0
Effective Disposals
8.5


72.9%
Disposal Efficiency %
69.1%


3.4
Clangers
2.9


1.2
Contested Marks
1.7


0.6
Marks Inside 50
0.7


3.3
Clearances
2.7


1.9
Rebound 50s
1.0


4.3
One Percenters
3.1


0.4
Bounces
0


85.7
Time On Ground %
79.5


1.2
Centre Clearances
0.9


2.1
Stoppage Clearances
1.9


5.4
Score Involvements
3.9


255.9
Metres Gained
126.6


3.2
Turnovers
1.9


4.4
Intercepts
2.8


0.5
Tackles Inside 50
0.7


119.6
AFL Fantasy Score
85.8


129.1
Supercoach Score
91.6






Interesting detail in games played!

Gawn was injured in round 3 and missed 10 weeks.

The week before he returned Melbourne played the Dogs. Roughead and Boyd combined for 60 hitouts to Melbournes 19.

Dogs lost by 10 goals.

Gawn Came back and played well the next week. 42 hitouts in only 70% game time.

Fully fit in 2018 he was a powerhouse and helped drive Melbourne deep into the finals.

[bulldogtragic]

Is there anything this guy is actually good at? Not good below his knees, not that great in the ruck, only really has good disposal with lots of time and space but under any pressure isn't really any good, can get disposals as long as his opponent doesn't put any effort into preventing him from doing so. Can we still get pick one for him?

After Norths win today, yes. If WCE really, really want him.

[azabob]

After Norths win today, yes. If WCE really, really want him.

Your memory is epic.

[bornadog]

After Norths win today, yes. If WCE really, really want him.

Except we don't want Pick 1, we want Tim

[G-Mo77]

Except we don't want Pick 1, we want Tim

Might be out of our hands and if it is things just moved in our favour.

[EasternWest]

Except we don't want Pick 1, we want Tim

Who's we?

[bornadog]

Who's we?
Western Bulldogs

[hujsh]

Debutante looking better than him

[EasternWest]

Debutante looking better than him

No no he's touted as AA haven't you heard?

P. S. I'm not committed either way on Tim. I think he's a fine player but not the ruckman we need.

[EasternWest]

Western Bulldogs

Grumble grumble I'll allow it.

[Grantysghost]

No no he's touted as AA haven't you heard?

P. S. I'm not committed either way on Tim. I think he's a fine player but not the ruckman we need.

The best ruck in the league?

[azabob]

The best ruck in the league?

In what universe is he the best ruck in the league?

[Grantysghost]

In what universe is he the best ruck in the league?

Not sure if trolling.

[1eyedog]

In what universe is he the best ruck in the league?

If we could pry out something really juicy from Wet Toast I would do it.

[Grantysghost]

If we could pry out something really juicy from Wet Toast I would do it.

The AA ruck would warrant something pretty juicy.

[1eyedog]

Zero pressure

[josie]

I?d be ok with him leaving if we can obtain a top pick and recruit a serviceable ruck (2 if Sweet is leaving).

[azabob]

Gee whiz. My trade English bandwagon is nearly full.

[bulldogtragic]

Gee whiz. My trade English bandwagon is nearly full.

Yours?

I’ll share it. Out of generosity.

[Grantysghost]

I love Tim you can all get stuffed ;)

[azabob]

Yours?

I’ll share it. Out of generosity.

Yeah mine. I started whilst you were on your sabbatical ;)

I’m sure BAD can fact check it.

[GVGjr]

I?d be ok with him leaving if we can obtain a top pick and recruit a serviceable ruck (2 if Sweet is leaving).

We've been patient with him since he arrived at the club and now when he has his best season I don't get the logic of trading him for an unknown prospect. He could get even better next season.

[bulldogtragic]

Yeah mine. I started whilst you were on your sabbatical ;)

I’m sure BAD can fact check it.

You’re a visionary then! I bow before you then, oh wise one.

Then get us Pick 1 Aza.

[Grantysghost]

Great running by English. Not many rucks work that hard.

[azabob]

Great running by English. Not many rucks work that hard.

Bro, he’s resting forward.

[josie]

We've been patient with him since he arrived at the club and now when he has his best season I don't get the logic of trading him for an unknown prospect. He could get even better next season.

I thought the same but think I was swayed by sunk cost bias. I like him and think he is good but I think we?d be better serviced by a Hudson type ruck. I hope if he stays I have to eat humble pie.

[Grantysghost]

Bro, he’s resting forward.

Ha. I knew that.

I'll stop talking about Tim. He's somehow the AA ruck and whipping boy.

Amazing.

He never rests forward either.

[hujsh]

We've been patient with him since he arrived at the club and now when he has his best season I don't get the logic of trading him for an unknown prospect. He could get even better next season.

Sell high, before everyone else sees what we do

[hujsh]

I?d be ok with him leaving if we can obtain a top pick and recruit a serviceable ruck (2 if Sweet is leaving).

Looks like Lobb can ruck just as well

[Testekill]

We're seeing that Lobb is actually a significantly better tap ruck than English. We actually took control of the game when Lobb went in

[josie]

We're seeing that Lobb is actually a significantly better tap ruck than English. We actually took control of the game when Lobb went in

Been thinking this for a while. Oppo shark English’s taps or he taps straight to them quite a bit. Plus English is not that good vs physical rucks.

[jeemak]

The message to Tim needs to be that we need a mix of two competent rucks and second/ forward rucks doing the best thing for the team.

Lobb hasn't wanted to play ruck mostly, and I hope tonight shows him how valuable he can be for the team if he takes on more responsibility in that area.

Conversely, I really hope Tim understands that the team requires him to be flexible and play forward and let Rory have a go when the team needs it.

It's not much to ask of both of these guys.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The message to Tim needs to be that we need a mix of two competent rucks and second/ forward rucks doing the best thing for the team.

Lobb hasn't wanted to play ruck mostly, and I hope tonight shows him how valuable he can be for the team if he takes on more responsibility in that area.

Conversely, I really hope Tim understands that the team requires him to be flexible and play forward and let Rory have a go when the team needs it.

It's not much to ask of both of these guys.

Absolutely agree.
Are we sure he made playing first ruck a stipulation before signing his last contract?

Hearing him speak, and rave about Lobb's ruckwork tonight, seemed to indicate he appreciates how that potential mix with Lobb could benefit the team.

[bornadog]

Lobb hasn't wanted to play ruck

Another myth on WOOF, disputed by Bevo in his Presser after the game.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Finally Lobb plays ruck and Tim goes forward.
Hope it is not the last time this season.

[lemmon]

The message to Tim needs to be that we need a mix of two competent rucks and second/ forward rucks doing the best thing for the team.

Lobb hasn't wanted to play ruck mostly, and I hope tonight shows him how valuable he can be for the team if he takes on more responsibility in that area.

Conversely, I really hope Tim understands that the team requires him to be flexible and play forward and let Rory have a go when the team needs it.

It's not much to ask of both of these guys.

Spot on. I'm a huge English fan, think he's had an exceptional season and if he goes, it'd be a big loss for us BUT he's not always the best option in there and he can have a huge impact playing as a forward. Plus, Lobb's ability to scrap at centre clearances and his follow-up work was very good - pulling that lever made a big difference for us.

Tonight doesn't say to me that we'd be okay with English going because Lobb could go in there, but it does say that we haven't got the mix right this year and there are times where Lobb provides a point of difference which can give our midfield an edge.

I hope we get the chance to see that more in 2024 - that combination could be the best 1-2 punch in the league.

[angelopetraglia]

It is no coincidence for me that the best footy we have played in the last few seasons in the first half of 2021 was when we English was playing the secondary ruck role and playing foward time.

[jeemak]

Another myth on WOOF, disputed by Bevo in his Presser after the game.


Absolutely agree.
Are we sure he made playing first ruck a stipulation before signing his last contract?

Hearing him speak, and rave about Lobb's ruckwork tonight, seemed to indicate he appreciates how that potential mix with Lobb could benefit the team.

BAD - if it's a myth then I'm the one who has perpetuated it and I wouldn't do that unless I had some reason to think it wasn't a myth. Bevo protects his players.

YHF (Purps from another time) - it's been done to death, and was the basis of an article that came out early season last year. Tim wanted to be number one, and Bevo confirmed that when refusing to play others in the spot at that time -verbatim

We can do the Nets if it's easier, both of you.

[jeemak]

It is no coincidence for me that the best footy we have played in the last few seasons in the first half of 2021 was when we English was playing the secondary ruck role and playing foward time.

No, it's not a coincidence. He is by far the best second ruck in the competition and almost in history.

[bornadog]

BAD - if it's a myth then I'm the one who has perpetuated it and I wouldn't do that unless I had some reason to think it wasn't a myth. Bevo protects his players.

YHF (Purps from another time) - it's been done to death, and was the basis of an article that came out early season last year. Tim wanted to be number one, and Bevo confirmed that when refusing to play others in the spot at that time -verbatim

We can do the Nets if it's easier, both of you.

Woof Myths :D

[Grantysghost]

Id drop English.

[jeemak]

Woof Myths :D

Nets. And I know where you work mate. So no getting out of this one.

[hujsh]

https://i.imgflip.com/7x13oj.jpg

[jeemak]

https://i.imgflip.com/7x13oj.jpg

English is the best ruck in the competition, he just doesn't have to do it all the time.

[1eyedog]

English can't actually ruck. He's got nfi he was tapping it to Geelong's midfielders all night.

[merantau]

I get more frustrated by Tim English than any other player because he should be able to perform so much better than what he does. For example: at boundary throw ins he rarely takes up front position or engages side by side, thus he gets beaten to the ball or at best halves the "contest". Taps to real advantage - by that I mean to a player who is in space and on the run - are rare. Why is that? He has been around for a long time now and should be better at his craft.

Lobb turned the game last night. Make no mistake about that. He was the difference. English is more physically imposing than Lobb. Why couldn’t he have done that. He was up against a first gamer and Stanley who is a decent player but has never been classed as a dominant ruck.
English needs to improve his ruck work and by playing in bursts and giving it a real crack he might be able to do this. But you have to be fair dinkum about what you do and have a red hot go.

[Jasper]

We are being to critical with English. Hes not a traditional ruckman but that fits into what what Bevo wants in terms of another midfielder around the ground. I think people would appreciate him more if he was a more traditional meat head ruckman that threw his weight around but that isnt going to happen. We need to love what we have got.

[Danjul]

We are being to critical with English. Hes not a traditional ruckman but that fits into what what Bevo wants in terms of another midfielder around the ground. I think people would appreciate him more if he was a more traditional meat head ruckman that threw his weight around but that isnt going to happen. We need to love what we have got.

Nothing shows what we have got more clearly than last night. A coach that can occasionally get the ruck right.

The team was a shambles being humiliated. The views of the supporters showed the wretchedness of the situation. Geelong should have been six or seven goals ahead.

Then a glimpse of early 2021. A ruckman who stopped the leaking from the centre and straightened the team up.

Lobb had few hitouts. He kept the ball where our midfielders were and suddenly we are watching a team that is 5 goals better.

A ruckman is not a midfielder around the ground. You get one or the other, not both.

We saw this in 2021. Maybe seeing it again will finally bring some understanding.

[Grantysghost]

English is the best ruck in the competition, he just doesn't have to do it all the time.

Yes. Spot on.

[D Mitchell]

Nothing shows what we have got more clearly than last night. A coach that can occasionally get the ruck right.

The team was a shambles being humiliated. The views of the supporters showed the wretchedness of the situation. Geelong should have been six or seven goals ahead.

Then a glimpse of early 2021. A ruckman who stopped the leaking from the centre and straightened the team up.

Lobb had few hitouts. He kept the ball where our midfielders were and suddenly we are watching a team that is 5 goals better.

A ruckman is not a midfielder around the ground. You get one or the other, not both.

We saw this in 2021. Maybe seeing it again will finally bring some understanding.
Do you think that Minson should have played in the finals in 2016 ?

[angelopetraglia]

Do you think that Minson should have played in the finals in 2016 ?

In 2016 we used the third man up rule in the ruck to our advantage. The changing of that rule put more focus back on pure ruckman.

We didn't miss Minson, primarily because of the rule and also that Roughead and Boyd did their job well in the big moments during the finals series.

[D Mitchell]

In 2016 we used the third man up rule in the ruck to our advantage. The changing of that rule put more focus back on pure ruckman.

We didn't miss Minson, primarily because of the rule and also that Roughead and Boyd did their job well in the big moments during the finals series.
Third man up was effective ?round the ground but not used at centre bounces, which is where English?s shortcomings are most commented upon. Since 2017, when the 3rd man up was outlawed, we?ve had Redpath and Sweet in the VFL. Bev?s philosophy on ruckman use is obvious but it?s a fair consideration whether that view should be adjusted more.

[Scorlibo]

English always struggles against Stanley, who is incredibly strong despite slightly smaller stature than most rucks out there.

Those bemoaning Lobb not playing more ruck time - I think you have to admit that he's not shown anything close to what he showed last night before now. That kind of display when Tim was struggling is exactly why we recruited him, and should now be a benchmark for the kind of impact he can have on games. Dare I say it was Luke Jackson '21GF-esque.

I'm looking forward now to seeing English and Lobb share the duties, and hopefully seeing Tim galvanised by the internal competition. But I don't bemoan the coaches for not giving Rory more ruck time so far this year, because he's not earned it.

The level of criticism directed at Tim this year is something I find amusing, almost as if the plaudits given to him have to be counteracted with an undercurrent of criticism. His ruck work is mediocre, no doubt, however it's also a lot better than it once was. It's his around the ground work that we take for granted, a genuine asset to the team and the envy of the competition. Like anyone he'll have good games and bad games, last night was a bad one. Seems it takes less than other players for him to be out of favour with our supporters. Might be something about him lacking that hard edge that makes him the whipping boy - similar to Eagleton or McMahon going back a few years.

[Danjul]

Do you think that Minson should have played in the finals in 2016 ?
Unfortunately I can?t remember his form clearly enough to answer.. I do remember thinking that Boyd was a good forward and Roughead was an excellent backman.

[angelopetraglia]

Unfortunately I can?t remember his form clearly enough to answer.. I do remember thinking that Boyd was a good forward and Roughead was an excellent backman.

In 2016 Minson only played two games.

He played round #15 and had six touches. He took one mark. He had 24 hit outs.

He played in round #22 and he had 8 touches and zero marks. He had 8 hit outs. Sandilands had 35.

[bornadog]

Nothing shows what we have got more clearly than last night. A coach that can occasionally get the ruck right.

The team was a shambles being humiliated. The views of the supporters showed the wretchedness of the situation. Geelong should have been six or seven goals ahead.

Then a glimpse of early 2021. A ruckman who stopped the leaking from the centre and straightened the team up.

Lobb had few hitouts. He kept the ball where our midfielders were and suddenly we are watching a team that is 5 goals better.

A ruckman is not a midfielder around the ground. You get one or the other, not both.

We saw this in 2021. Maybe seeing it again will finally bring some understanding.

This is dinosaur speak. The modern game doesn't work with a tap ruckman and nothing else.

[Danjul]

English always struggles against Stanley, who is incredibly strong despite slightly smaller stature than most rucks out there.

Those bemoaning Lobb not playing more ruck time - I think you have to admit that he's not shown anything close to what he showed last night before now. That kind of display when Tim was struggling is exactly why we recruited him, and should now be a benchmark for the kind of impact he can have on games. Dare I say it was Luke Jackson '21GF-esque.

I'm looking forward now to seeing English and Lobb share the duties, and hopefully seeing Tim galvanised by the internal competition. But I don't bemoan the coaches for not giving Rory more ruck time so far this year, because he's not earned it.

The level of criticism directed at Tim this year is something I find amusing, almost as if the plaudits given to him have to be counteracted with an undercurrent of criticism. His ruck work is mediocre, no doubt, however it's also a lot better than it once was. It's his around the ground work that we take for granted, a genuine asset to the team and the envy of the competition. Like anyone he'll have good games and bad games, last night was a bad one. Seems it takes less than other players for him to be out of favour with our supporters. Might be something about him lacking that hard edge that makes him the whipping boy - similar to Eagleton or McMahon going back a few years.
This is the best summary of the Bulldogs last 5 years.

When he was worse than mediocre the coach insisted that English, and only English, would ruck.

Then when he is mediocre the coach insists that English will always be Number 1 ruck.

Even in the year we experimented with tap ruckmen ( first half of 2021 that put us at the top of the ladder) we finished with trying no ruckman. Remember Dunkley and Hannan taking the contests and not making an attempt? I do.

Last nights turnaround should be seen as a valuable lesson for the club, not a criticism of a champion who still made some critical contributions. Using English sensibly can help us greatly going forward. Unfortunately the way he has been used has us dependent on how other matches pan out.

[Hotdog60]

The modern ruckman needs to be very good contested mark and this is the flaw with Sweet. The ruck becomes the bail out kick and Tim has done very well in his contested marking as his games have gone on plus he is mobile for a big man and I could live with his tap work but I would like to see his second efforts if he doesn't win it he can hold it in for a second go.
Sweet is not bad at this as was Minson and Hudson and with the 666 rule I think this become even more so because you get the chance to setup defensively by holding things up in the centre.

[Danjul]

This is dinosaur speak. The modern game doesn't work with a tap ruckman and nothing else.
Last night showed how to get the midfielders firing and straighten up the game for faster entries and better scoring.

We haven?t done that since there were dinosaurs.

[hujsh]

I loved seeing the Lobb tap to Libba last night where Libba had momentum out of the centre and could see the field ahead to try and pick a target. It's very rare we see that (to be fair Lobb has had opportunities to ruck like that through the year and whether it be due to form, fitness, commitment or some mix of them he hadn't) and I want to see it more.

[Bulldog4life]

Outside of Gawn, I'm okay with backing Tim.

Yep I appreciate what he can do not bag him for his weaknesses. All players have them.

[Bulldog4life]

Another myth on WOOF, disputed by Bevo in his Presser after the game.

I hate the myths.

[Testekill]

The modern ruckman needs to be very good contested mark and this is the flaw with Sweet. The ruck becomes the bail out kick and Tim has done very well in his contested marking as his games have gone on plus he is mobile for a big man and I could live with his tap work but I would like to see his second efforts if he doesn't win it he can hold it in for a second go.
Sweet is not bad at this as was Minson and Hudson and with the 666 rule I think this become even more so because you get the chance to setup defensively by holding things up in the centre.

Sweet does have a problem with hands of stone as you've noted but his follow up work is really good, post hitout he applies pressure and attempts to block which is something that English doesn't really do. I would absolutely kill to have Ben Hudson in his prime in this team as he'd be perfect for us.

[JanLorMill]

Third man up was effective ?round the ground but not used at centre bounces, which is where English?s shortcomings are most commented upon. Since 2017, when the 3rd man up was outlawed, we?ve had Redpath and Sweet in the VFL. Bev?s philosophy on ruckman use is obvious but it?s a fair consideration whether that view should be adjusted more.
English's shortcomings is not centre bounces, it's his lack of physicality. No one expects a ruck to win all taps but compete hard and at least somewhat nullify then oppostions ruck's influence.

[D Mitchell]

English's shortcomings is not centre bounces, it's his lack of physicality. No one expects a ruck to win all taps but compete hard and at least somewhat nullify then oppostions ruck's influence.

English is now amongst the biggest of ruckmen yet still gets out bodied. He's kept from the ball. At centre bounces, the tactic used against him is to run slightly beyond the fall of the ball and block him out. The ball seldom goes to our advantage, our best result is usually when the ball comes off the contest to neither side's advantage. Same at boundary throw ins, obvious in the 1st half last night, hold English off with the non tapping hand/arm. It's not as damaging because numbers who can mop up are unlimited, unlike at the centre bounce.

[Danjul]

Yep I appreciate what he can do not bag him for his weaknesses. All players have them.
Maximise the strengths and minimise the weaknesses.

you should not ignore either.

That should apply to coach (game plan) and players.

[D Mitchell]

Maximise the strengths and minimise the weaknesses.

you should not ignore either.

That should apply to coach (game plan) and players.

I think that's exactly what Bev's doing with English. All year I've thought that Lobb is the better tap ruckman but nowhere near English 'round the ground. Bev puts Lobb into the centre bounce after half time and immediate results, 3 goals in 3 minutes.

[macca]

The modern ruckman needs to be very good contested mark and this is the flaw with Sweet. The ruck becomes the bail out kick and Tim has done very well in his contested marking as his games have gone on plus he is mobile for a big man and I could live with his tap work but I would like to see his second efforts if he doesn't win it he can hold it in for a second go.
Sweet is not bad at this as was Minson and Hudson and with the 666 rule I think this become even more so because you get the chance to setup defensively by holding things up in the centre.
Great points @hotdog60

Scott complimented Lobb on how good he is a contested mark and even more as a finisher.

There is room for a bash and crash ruck , as mobile hybrid rucks like Gawn/Marshall don't grow on trees, they are an exception than the norm. I don't have the stats on me, but the long long years to invest in a ruck for them to come good ( if that happens) is a big investment. Its rare for a single ruckman to play out all 22 games.

So English has the durability and endurance to play out the whole game, his just lacking the aggressive body contests and positioning at the ruck contests to get first tap choice , directed to our mids.

Collingwood - Cameron ( injured) , at his second club , Cox ( not a ruck) , Ladhams ( doesn't want to be a ruck)
Brisbane - McInerny : bash and crash ruckman
Carlton - Pittonet: bash and crash , at his second club
Geelong - Stanley ( kinda hybrid but medicore, only comes good against Egnlish) , Blicvacs ( Gun- injured) , Ragloea( now backman)
St Kilda : Rowan Marshall - Gun
Port: Lycett and Hayes with Finlayson chopout ,
Swans- Hickey , at his 4th club! retired
GWS : Briggs(13) /Flynn(9) /Preuss (0), cant get on the park between the 3 of them ?
Draper : Bash and crash, but good kick and can take a mark, he has the most potential I would be recuirting.

Summary of top 8 , and those outside. Gawn and Rowan are the top 2 ruck who do it all.
Nankervis : more bash than crash ruck type.

GCS : Witts, bash and crash good stoppage . Hudson like ruck


Q. Is there too much emphasis on rucks being a hyrbrid Gawn/Rowan type who are elite at the contest ?

I like how Brisbane are using McInerny , which is what we should be building our game around. Sweet should be modelling his game around that: provide a contest, bring the ball to ground and spend x100s of hours on marking.

Reduce the complex KPIs and Keep it simple for Sweet.

Big money for English is a big risk. The above summary of some rucks shows a majority of them have been around a few clubs now and need to spend a long time on a list to be good. The end for big man can come very quickly, see Nic natanui, Maybe Grundy is in his decline ???

[bornadog]

I hate the myths.

I saw Lobb on the Footy show this morning (hate that show, but heard Lobb was on so I had it on mute till he came on).. He was asked by Kane whether he likes the ruck because that is what people think. He said his preferred role is Fwd/Ruck, but doesn't mind the ruck work and will do anything to help the team.

Sometimes people hear something like - " I prefer Fwd" and then make up a story, Oh he hates ruck work.

[bornadog]

Tim is only the third ruckman for the Club to reach over 700 hitouts - currently 717.

What a great achievement from the young ruckman.

Currently sits 4th in the AFL for the season and 3rd for HTA.

[Grantysghost]

Tim is only the third ruckman for the Club to reach over 700 hitouts - currently 717.

What a great achievement from the young ruckman.

Currently sits 4th in the AFL for the season and 3rd for HTA.

Superstar

[Danjul]

I loved seeing the Lobb tap to Libba last night where Libba had momentum out of the centre and could see the field ahead to try and pick a target. It's very rare we see that (to be fair Lobb has had opportunities to ruck like that through the year and whether it be due to form, fitness, commitment or some mix of them he hadn't) and I want to see it more.
That was a great moment, and it is an important part of how both the midfielders and forwards function at their best.

[bulldogtragic]

Irrespective of Tim as a player. We can’t both rebuild the list by spreading wages around more players and pay him at or more than a million dollars a season.

Either he stays on close to his salary or takes the rumoured big money offers elsewhere. A million dollars for a ruckman is just a luxury a rebuilding list can’t afford.

So that said, Tim should look for a long time big money deal elsewhere.

The same goes for Naughton to a degree too. To pay him more than the top 5 Coleman’s for 2/3 the leaders doesn’t make good sense. We need to bring in picks and spread our cap. We can’t over pay in these times. We might, but we will seal our own fate.

[hujsh]

Irrespective of Tim as a player. We can’t both rebuild the list by spreading wages around more players and pay him at or more than a million dollars a season.

Either he stays on close to his salary or takes the rumoured big money offers elsewhere. A million dollars for a ruckman is just a luxury a rebuilding list can’t afford.

So that said, Tim should look for a long time big money deal elsewhere.

The same goes for Naughton to a degree too. To pay him more than the top 5 Coleman’s for 2/3 the leaders doesn’t make good sense. We need to bring in picks and spread our cap. We can’t over pay in these times. We might, but we will seal our own fate.

We were promised he'd kick 50 goals this year. I want a refund

[bulldogtragic]

We were promised he'd kick 50 goals this year. I want a refund

Ditto. If he’s on the rumoured $850,000 this year, we paid about $20,000 per goal.

That’s not sensible. It’s really not.

[bornadog]

Best Ruckman in AFL

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4xmyXSbYAAlI1T?format=jpg&name=large

[jazzadogs]

We don't need him.

[jazzadogs]

Nahhhh just fishing.

An excellent season for an excellent all round player. His most consistent year, and reflective of what he was building towards the last few years outside of repeat concussions. He is an asset and he would be a big loss if he chose to leave.

Well done Tim.

[GVGjr]

A massive improvement that has been building for a few years. Really happy to see him get some serious recognition. I think he can get even better.

[Grantysghost]

We don't need him.

Would've been Captain if he just added some more testosterone to his game J.

[EasternWest]

Best Ruckman in AFL

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4xmyXSbYAAlI1T?format=jpg&name=large

This is the first time I've heard you claim this. Can you elaborate?:)

[Sedat]

A massive improvement that has been building for a few years. Really happy to see him get some serious recognition. I think he can get even better.
His stoppage work and ruck craft have improved significantly this year but there is still clear room for improvement here. If he stays with the club, he is just about the most important player on our list for the next 5 years - continued improvement in stoppage work, and also his ability to better work through poor patches in intensity, will get us back into the top 4 and contending for silverware.

He's a deserving AA but it highlights that 2023 wasn't a banner year for the ruckmen of the competition.

It is sobering that English, Bont and Libba all had career best seasons and yet we missed finals, and more concerningly our scoring from stoppages fell to the floor this year compared to last year even with these 3 having elite seasons. I hope the thorough internal review in the off-season will get to work on specifically identifying why this area of scoring completely fell apart despite our key personnel in this area having amazing seasons (you can add Treloar to that, who was excellent most of the season).

[JanLorMill]

Needs to improve his kick ins after a point.

[Bulldog4life]

Congratulations to Tim. A huge tribute to him. Keeps improving each year. Keep it up son.

[bornadog]

Good news for Tim:


After just the two seasons at the Fever, Rudi Ellis is set for a move to Victoria.

Ellis has family in Victoria and her partner is Western Bulldogs ruckman Tim English.


She's tipped to be Vixens-bound.

[bulldogtragic]

Good news for Tim:

Unless he gets to have a WA girlfriend and a Victorian girlfriend. In which case there’s a great new reality TV show coming to the channels of 7 to work out Who Wins Tim.

[ReLoad]

Unless he gets to have a WA girlfriend and a Victorian girlfriend. In which case there’s a great new reality TV show coming to the channels of 7 to work out Who Wins Tim.

its all about the new CBA i reckon.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Good news for Tim:

Great news for us and Sam Power

[azabob]

Since some posters put a heap of faith in what player managers say (i.e. Smith and Naughton) what do they make of this?


https://x.com/traderadio/status/1708674412306931869?s=20

Not filling me with much confidence on big Timmy staying!

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Since some posters put a heap of faith in what player managers say (i.e. Smith and Naughton) what do they make of this?


https://x.com/traderadio/status/1708674412306931869?s=20

Not filling me with much confidence on big Timmy staying!

I mean it's less than ideal having 3 key guys out of contract next season and basically not committing to the club. Either you want to stay and sign early to avoid a circus or move on. Imagine this time next year and they're all unsigned? Next year is going to be hell really.

[bornadog]

I mean it's less than ideal having 3 key guys out of contract next season and basically not committing to the club. Either you want to stay and sign early to avoid a circus or move on. Imagine this time next year and they're all unsigned? Next year is going to be hell really.

Power will be working hard and earning his money.

[Grantysghost]

Since some posters put a heap of faith in what player managers say (i.e. Smith and Naughton) what do they make of this?


https://x.com/traderadio/status/1708674412306931869?s=20

Not filling me with much confidence on big Timmy staying!

He's got an asset so he's going to muddy the waters to make people come to the table eg his partner has a property in Perth. Didn't need to say it, however him dropping that is tactical and I guess is a lever to make the Dogs pony up.

[GVGjr]

Since some posters put a heap of faith in what player managers say (i.e. Smith and Naughton) what do they make of this?


https://x.com/traderadio/status/1708674412306931869?s=20

Not filling me with much confidence on big Timmy staying!

It's not his job to fill us with confidence but once again I'm not sure how he could have answered the questions to appease everyone's interest.

Is there any particular point that inserts that level of doubt in you?

[azabob]

It's not his job to fill us with confidence but once again I'm not sure how he could have answered the questions to appease everyone's interest.

Is there any particular point that inserts that level of doubt in you?

100% it is not his job to comfort us.

Was not what what he said but how he said it. The way he stumbled and um and ah his way through a fairly straightforward question, which he would have known was coming. I have not listened to the full interview but from what I?ve read McDougal was fairly succinct in Naughton staying.

Gut feel is English will test free agency which is right and I think he will leave. Not that I?m bias anyway in that outcome :)

[SquirrelGrip]

Gut feel is English will test free agency which is right and I think he will leave. Not that I?m bias anyway in that outcome :)

My reading of it was different - Tim has a partner so he has more to work through than a single Naughton.

[Mofra]

My reading of it was different - Tim has a partner so he has more to work through than a single Naughton.
Treloar is married with a small kid and his partner plays netball in another state.
Patrick Cripps' partner had a major health issue and he still didn't return to WA for her.

I think we really overplay the importance of where a player's GF lives currently in how a player may view their career in 2025.

[bornadog]

Treloar is married with a small kid and his partner plays netball in another state.
Patrick Cripps' partner had a major health issue and he still didn't return to WA for her.

I think we really overplay the importance of where a player's GF lives currently in how a player may view their career in 2025.

Also the season is not long, (14 weeks) so they can get back together quickly.

[SquirrelGrip]

Treloar is married with a small kid and his partner plays netball in another state.
Patrick Cripps' partner had a major health issue and he still didn't return to WA for her.

I think we really overplay the importance of where a player's GF lives currently in how a player may view their career in 2025.

With Treloar, I just don't get how he manages it. I couldn't

I wasn't aware of Patrick Cripps' partner.

With Tim, he's obviously been living in a different state to Rudi for a while now, but at some point I'd expect them to want to be together. The good news here is that she is moving to Melbourne for netball and I'm confident that this will be the stability they could be looking for.

Everyone is different. Some players would rather move to a state with their sister and their new best friend's wife, whilst leaving their own partner in Adelaide. That's something I really don't get.

[Scorlibo]

With Tim, he's obviously been living in a different state to Rudi for a while now, but at some point I'd expect them to want to be together. The good news here is that she is moving to Melbourne for netball and I'm confident that this will be the stability they could be looking for.


That's very positive news for us (and them). Reportedly she's signing on for two years to play in Melbourne.

[bulldogtragic]

Question Time:

1. How many years should Tim ask for?
2. How many years should the club give him to stay?

[bornadog]

Question Time:

1. How many years should Tim ask for?
2. How many years should the club give him to stay?

I think 5 years is reasonable. We have nurtured him and primed him for the role, and he owes us.

[GVGjr]

Question Time:

1. How many years should Tim ask for?
2. How many years should the club give him to stay?

Tim should ask for 6 years and we should probably offer 5.

[Axe Man]

At least with Tim not being a crash and bash ruckman he's a decent chance at a long career. Dean Cox played until 33, Goldy looks like playing until 40! Gawn turns 32 at the end of the year and still looks like he's got a few years in him yet.

[GVGjr]

At least with Tim not being a crash and bash ruckman he's a decent chance at a long career. Dean Cox played until 33, Goldy looks like playing until 40! Gawn turns 32 at the end of the year and still looks like he's got a few years in him yet.

The thing I also like about Tim is that if he started to slow down later in his deal he could also be used as a very effective forward.