First Draftee to Debut?

[bulldogtragic]

So, who is going to get the first game of the bunch?

[hujsh]

Lipinksi has to be the favourite you'd think.

Wouldn't be the worst outcome if none of them played this season though. Means that the guys at the club already are fit and performing

[Bulldog Joe]

Bevo's mantra seems to be to give them a taste.

Lipinski would be the most likely to debut first, but the pre-season may give a better view.

[1eyedog]

English won't play first but given his versatility I see him playing well before he is really for the ruck role.

[Rocco Jones]

English won't play first but given his versatility I see him playing well before he is really for the ruck role.

Was going to post something similar. What Bevo sees as the ruck role is very different to the norm too.

[comrade]

I'm going with Fergalicious. 19, elite runner, good hands and size means he is likely able to play across the ground. Bevo values flexibility above all else.

[LostDoggy]

With Lippa under The Bonts wing he has to be a Monty to debut first :)

[Twodogs]

English won't play first but given his versatility I see him playing well before he is really for the ruck role.


Was going to post something similar. What Bevo sees as the ruck role is very different to the norm too.

Agree with those assessments. I wouldn't be suprised to see him spend time in defence early on. He has all the attributes of a good defender speed, height, good kick, very competitive when the ball hits the ground. If, as a few say, he has some trouble with ruck work then a stint somewhere other than the ruck where he can use his best assets makes sense to me.

[bulldogtragic]

Remember the draft experts quotes about the Dogs can afford to take English because they can stockpile talent for years, and there's no need to play him early... Looks like he might be first to debut! :D

If he does, I reckon a rising star nomination might be on the cards because he's such a different type of talent.

[bornadog]

Watching Lipinski the other night, I was impressed with some of the things he did. Still very raw, and nervous, but the talent is there.

Will be interesting to watch English tomorrow night and see how he goes.

[craigsahibee]

If Campbell doesn't get up for Round 1, English is #1 to debut.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

I went for English because Roughie and Campbell have injuries

[bulldogtragic]

And it's Timmy! Looking forward to the first of many hundreds of games.

We drafted him because we didn't need to rush him in, and on form he's in the team before the bye. Huge effort, huge talent, huge kid. Huuuuge.

[comrade]

Will be the 2nd best player at the club within 2 years, you heard it here first.

[bulldogtragic]

Will be the 2nd best player at the club within 2 years, you heard it here first.

Wood, JJ, Tom Boyd, Stringer, Libba, Macrae & Stringer to be traded within 2 years. Huuuuge call. :D

[comrade]

Wood, JJ, Tom Boyd, Stringer, Libba, Macrae & Stringer to be traded within 2 years. Huuuuge call. :D

Will overtake them all.

[bulldogtragic]

Will overtake them all.

I've only watched the VFL games which have been televised, but Dalrymple needs to be charged with stealing English at pick 19.

[Twodogs]

He has a habit of remaining in the play. The first time I saw him play for Footscray the ball followed him around everywhere.

[Mofra]

I've only watched the VFL games which have been televised, but Dalrymple needs to be charged with stealing English at pick 19.
Weird, because seeing him live I remember thinking he's better than many give him credit for but further off senior action than many stated too. Good luck to the kid, looks an absolute gun.

[bulldogtragic]

Weird, because seeing him live I remember thinking he's better than many give him credit for but further off senior action than many stated too. Good luck to the kid, looks an absolute gun.

In our wildest dreams, if he plays well and can stay in the side, he might just come second in the Rising Star behind a lesser interstate player.

[Happy Days]

I've only watched the VFL games which have been televised, but Clayton needs to be charged with stealing Higgins at pick 11.

- All of us, 2009

Maybe let him play a little first?

[comrade]

- All of us, 2009

Maybe let him play a little first?

After blowing first rounders with Williams, Walsh, McMahon, Power I don't think anyone was overly confident in Clayton stealing anything by 2009 (except his pay packet maybe).

[bulldogtragic]

After blowing first rounders with Williams, Walsh, McMahon, Power I don't think anyone was overly confident in Clayton stealing anything by 2009 (except his pay packet maybe).

Not putting Jarrad Grant in this list, I'm sick of you always pumping up Jarrad Grant, what's he ever done to keep your loyalty?

[Happy Days]

After blowing first rounders with Williams, Walsh, McMahon, Power I don't think anyone was overly confident in Clayton stealing anything by 2009 (except his pay packet maybe).

I'm not going to go back into the wayback machine, because that would be decidedly more brutal for me than anyone else, but I distinctly remember Clayton's genius being heralded ad nauseam around the last time we were "good".

[comrade]

Not putting Jarrad Grant in this list, I'm sick of you always pumping up Jarrad Grant, what's he ever done to keep your loyalty?

In 2009 we were praying Grant would be different. Idiots.

[bulldogtragic]

In 2009 we were praying Grant would be different. Idiots.

Have we traded, free agent let go or delisted every one of his first rounders?

Cooney - Essendon
Ray - St Kilda
Gryphone - GWS
Williams - Delisted/Retired
McMahon - Richmond
Higgins - North
Power - North
Walsh - Delisted/Retired
Grant - GCS/delisted
Everitt - Sydney
Ayce - Delisted

[comrade]

Have we traded, free agent let go or delisted every one of his first rounders?

Cooney - Essendon
Ray - St Kilda
Gryphone - GWS
Williams - Delisted/Retired
McMahon - Richmond
Higgins - North
Power - North
Walsh - Delisted/Retired
Grant - GCS/delisted
Everitt - Sydney
Ayce - Delisted

Honestly, how does he still have a job?

[bulldogtragic]

Honestly, how does he still have a job?

Don't look into his second rounders either (although nailing Ward, who later left). Jesse Wells, Cam Faulkner, etc.

[bornadog]

Honestly, how does he still have a job?

The recruiter can't be responsible for the development of players.

Out of that list only Walsh didn't play more than 50 games. (Maybe Ayce as well , I need to check)

[comrade]

The recruiter can't be responsible for the development of players.

Out of that list only Walsh didn't play more than 50 games. (Maybe Ayce as well , I need to check)

First rounders always get more leniency and are given more games to prove they can't play, rather than proving they can.

A couple of misses are ok, but apart from Cooney, Griffen & probably Higgins (and these 3 were all flawed), he busted on every single pick and has continued to make a mess at the Gold Coast.

[bornadog]

First rounders always get more leniency and are given more games to prove they can't play, rather than proving they can.

A couple of misses are ok, but apart from Cooney, Griffen & probably Higgins (and these 3 were all flawed), he busted on every single pick and has continued to make a mess at the Gold Coast.

I don't want to go over same old ground as I don't know what your yard stick is whether a player is boom or bust. eg Farren Ray played over 200 games of AFL football - he is no dud. Jordan McMahon (148 games). Just because we don't like these players, doesn't mean they are no good.

[comrade]

I don't want to go over same old ground as I don't know what your yard stick is whether a player is boom or bust. eg Farren Ray played over 200 games of AFL football - he is no dud. Jordan McMahon (148 games). Just because we don't like these players, doesn't mean they are no good.

I am happy to go on the record and say that Farren Ray is one of the worst 200 gamers of all time. That being said 2003 was probably the worst draft of all time.

The best thing McMahon ever did for us was net us the pick we used on Ward.

[bornadog]

I am happy to go on the record and say that Farren Ray is one of the worst 200 gamers of all time. That being said 2003 was probably the worst draft of all time.

The best thing McMahon ever did for us was net us the pick we used on Ward.

The is fine, and that is your opinion. But what is your criteria whether a player made it or not?

Personally, I think if a recruiter can pick a player who can get over 50 games, they have done well. On a first rounder, at least 100 games, unless there are other issues, like cruel injuries destroying their career.

[bulldogtragic]

Alright, who are the three people who selected English for the thread poll only after he was named and this thread bumped?

[comrade]

The is fine, and that is your opinion. But what is your criteria whether a player made it or not?

Personally, I think if a recruiter can pick a player who can get over 50 games, they have done well. On a first rounder, at least 100 games, unless there are other issues, like cruel injuries destroying their career.

IMO, a successful non bust criteria is as follows:

Top 5 pick needs to return 200+ quality games
Top 6-10 pick needs to return 150+ quality games
Top 11-20 pick needs to return 100+ quality games
Top 21-30 pick needs to return 50+ quality games

Obviously injuries need to be taken into account which means you could give Clayton some leeway on Walsh and Williams but I doubt either would have fit the above criteria even if they weren't as fragile as tissue paper.

[bornadog]

IMO, a successful non bust criteria is as follows:

Top 5 pick needs to return 200+ quality games
Top 6-10 pick needs to return 150+ quality games
Top 11-20 pick needs to return 100+ quality games
Top 21-30 pick needs to return 50+ quality games

Obviously injuries need to be taken into account which means you could give Clayton some leeway on Walsh and Williams but I doubt either would have fit the above criteria even if they weren't as fragile as tissue paper.

Well based on your criteria (except the definition of Quality), and taking out Williams and Walsh.



x
1
Cooney
Brownlow


x
4
Ray
200 plus games


x
3
Gryphone
200 plus games, Captain, best finals player for his time


o
6
Williams
85 games - Injuries killed his career


x
10
McMahon
148 games, BOG 2006 Elimination final


x
11
Higgins
170 Games



10
Power
123 games


o
4
Walsh
Fail



5
Grant
94 Games - didn't live up to expectations


x
11
Everitt
131 Games



14
Ayce
27 games, Not up to expectations.


6 of 9







My point is you can't just blame the recruiter, other factors come into it.

[comrade]

Well based on your criteria (except the definition of Quality), and taking out Williams and Walsh.



x
1
Cooney
Brownlow


x
4
Ray
200 plus games


x
3
Gryphone
200 plus games, Captain, best finals player for his time


o
6
Williams
85 games - Injuries killed his career


x
10
McMahon
148 games, BOG 2006 Elimination final


x
11
Higgins
170 Games



10
Power
123 games


o
4
Walsh
Fail



5
Grant
94 Games - didn't live up to expectations


x
11
Everitt
131 Games



14
Ayce
27 games, Not up to expectations.


6 of 9







My point is you can't just blame the recruiter, other factors come into it.

The key word is quality.

And how many of the games from Everitt, Ray, Power, Higgins and McMahon were with us? You can't claim games with other clubs after we've off loaded them.

[comrade]

Everitt played less than 100 with us, Ray played less than 100 with us, Power played less than 100 with us.

All netted crappy picks in return also.

[bulldogtragic]

Over 9 years, development can't be the predominant answer, or only answer. These are the next 2 or 3 picked which Clayton overlooked:

2000: Sporn, Shaun Burgoyne, Ash McGrath
2001: Cole, Reilly, Del Santo
2002: Jarrad McVeigh, Salopek, Mackie
2003: Clayton nailed Cooney & Ray as the right choices
2004: Buddy, Jordan Lewis
2005: Nathan Jones (Melb), Shannon Hurn
2006: James Frawley, Jack Riewoldt
2007: Mitch Brown (Geel), Schoenmakers
2008: Myers, Palmer, Henderson, McEvoy, Dangerfield, Vez, Rioli

Clayton overlooked some outstanding players within just a 2-3 spots. I know no one has ever made a mistake in hindsight, but history says he stuffed up our first rounders except for 2003. There's plenty of 200 & 300 game players available at our pick. Perhaps he just wasn't as good as he and others told us he was.

[bornadog]

The key word is quality.

And how many of the games from Everitt, Ray, Power, Higgins and McMahon were with us? You can't claim games with other clubs after we've off loaded them.

No we are talking about a recruiter picking out a player amongst thousands around the country. If they leave the club, it is not the recruiters fault.

How do you work out quality games over a career? - personal opinions?


Everitt played less than 100 with us, Ray played less than 100 with us, Power played less than 100 with us.

All netted crappy picks in return also.

Crappy picks returned - list management issue. We didn't have a proper list manager in those years, besides has nothing to do with recruiting.

[bornadog]

Over 9 years, development can't be the predominant answer, or only answer. These are the next 2 or 3 picked which Clayton overlooked:

2000: Sporn, Shaun Burgoyne, Ash McGrath
2001: Cole, Reilly, Del Santo
2002: Jarrad McVeigh, Salopek, Mackie
2003: Clayton nailed Cooney & Ray as the right choices
2004: Buddy, Jordan Lewis
2005: Nathan Jones (Melb), Shannon Hurn
2006: James Frawley, Jack Riewoldt
2007: Mitch Brown (Geel), Schoenmakers
2008: Myers, Palmer, Henderson, McEvoy, Dangerfield, Vez, Rioli

Clayton overlooked some outstanding players within just a 2-3 spots. I know no one has ever made a mistake in hindsight, but history says he stuffed up our first rounders except for 2003. There's plenty of 200 & 300 game players available at our pick. Perhaps he just wasn't as good as he and others told us he was.

BT, all good in hindsight, I would say every recruiter in the country misses. You just don't know when you are picking 18 year old kids. I can't buy into your list.

[comrade]

No we are talking about a recruiter picking out a player amongst thousands around the country. If they leave the club, it is not the recruiters fault.

How do you work out quality games over a career? - personal opinions?



Crappy picks returned - list management issue. We didn't have a proper list manager in those years.

The world's best negotiator couldn't have scored decent picks for those players.

[comrade]

Martin Flanagan presented Timmy's jumper:

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2017-05-26/flanagan-presents-gurernsey-to-english

[bornadog]

The world's best negotiator couldn't have scored decent picks for those players.

Nothing to do with recruitment

[bornadog]

Martin Flanagan presented Timmy's jumper:

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2017-05-26/flanagan-presents-gurernsey-to-english

Love the way Martin presents the jumper.

[comrade]

Nothing to do with recruitment

If they were good players a) we wouldn't have felt the need to off load them & b) we would have gotten something decent for them.

Clayton sucked, no debating it.

[Cyberdoggie]

The key word is quality.

And how many of the games from Everitt, Ray, Power, Higgins and McMahon were with us? You can't claim games with other clubs after we've off loaded them.

There is also the question of what players he missed to select them.
ie Grypon over Buddy Franklin

[bulldogtragic]

There is also the question of what players he missed to select them.
ie Grypon over Buddy Franklin

I put up that list last page. It's a whose who of gun players.

[bornadog]

Clayton sucked, no debating it.

That contradicts your own criteria???

I know you put in a get out clause called quality, but as I said, how do you measure quality of a player over 10 years. They can't all be champions, some are soldiers (eg Ray), but yet they are able to play hundreds of games at the elite level.

All recruiters have hits and misses. Dal has certainty had some rippers as well, but I am not going to can him.

Anyway, this thread has gone off the rails.

[comrade]

That contradicts your own criteria???

I know you put in a get out clause called quality, but as I said, how do you measure quality of a player over 10 years. They can't all be champions, some are soldiers (eg Ray), but yet they are able to play hundreds of games at the elite level.

All recruiters have hits and misses. Dal has certainty had some rippers as well, but I am not going to can him.

Anyway, this thread has gone off the rails.

We're talking about first rounders only here, which IMO is the absolute bread and butter for recruiters. If you can't nail the majority of your first round picks, you're no good at the caper. Clayton's record is woeful, Dal's is superb. He's missed 1 only in Howard, and picked up incredible talents that were seen as marginal or reaches at the time.

[bornadog]

IMO, a successful non bust criteria is as follows:

Top 5 pick needs to return 200+ quality games
Top 6-10 pick needs to return 150+ quality games
Top 11-20 pick needs to return 100+ quality games
Top 21-30 pick needs to return 50+ quality games

Obviously injuries need to be taken into account which means you could give Clayton some leeway on Walsh and Williams but I doubt either would have fit the above criteria even if they weren't as fragile as tissue paper.


We're talking about first rounders only here, which IMO is the absolute bread and butter for recruiters. If you can't nail the majority of your first round picks, you're no good at the caper. Clayton's record is woeful, Dal's is superb. He's missed 1 only in Howard, and picked up incredible talents that were seen as marginal or reaches at the time.

Yep I only assessed first rounders against your criteria and according to you he nailed 6/9. If we include 1999, then 7/10.

Dal's can't be Superb yet because none of the players fit your criteria yet.

[westdog54]

I stand to be corrected but I'm fairly sure there's numerous threads on Scott Clayton and recruiting in general that this discussion would be better placed, so the rest of us can concentrate on Tim English.

[comrade]

Yep I only assessed first rounders against your criteria and according to you he nailed 6/9. If we include 1999, then 7/10.

Dal's can't be Superb yet because none of the players fit your criteria yet.

Everitt, Power, Ray, Grant, Walsh, Williams, Cordy & McMahon don't fit the criteria (as I'm not counting games they played at other clubs). So there is 8 busts.

But let me put it this way.

Bont, Stringer & Macrae have played more quality games between them then every single one of Clayton's first rounders combined.

[Sedat]

Bont, Stringer & Macrae have played more quality games between them then every single one of Clayton's first rounders combined.
Bob?

[comrade]

Bob?

Let's stick to this millennium ;)

[hujsh]

Bont, Stringer & Macrae have played more quality games between them then every single one of Clayton's first rounders combined.

Cooney Grff and Higgins probably have. Hell just Cooney and Griffin would likely have them covered

He *!*!*!*!ed plenty up but I don't see why it's his fault Cooney was traded after injuries hampered him as a brownlow medalist, or that Griff went a bit mental and/or found the club to be a bad place to be or that Higgins wanted out (and pick 26 was not exactly rubbish compensation, it's what we paid for Essendon's leading goalkicker)

It's kind of funny but I'm actually on the same side of this issue as you yet I don't agree with the points you're making.

[Bulldog4life]

Alright, who are the three people who selected English for the thread poll only after he was named and this thread bumped?

I was one of those. I thought as he had senior footy last year there was a reasonable chance he would play first

[Bulldog4life]

I was one of those. I thought as he had senior footy last year there was a reasonable chance he would play first

Sorry I picked him before thread was bumped

[bornadog]

Cooney Grff and Higgins probably have. Hell just Cooney and Griffin would likely have them covered

He *!*!*!*!ed plenty up but I don't see why it's his fault Cooney was traded after injuries hampered him as a brownlow medalist, or that Griff went a bit mental and/or found the club to be a bad place to be or that Higgins wanted out (and pick 26 was not exactly rubbish compensation, it's what we paid for Essendon's leading goalkicker)

It's kind of funny but I'm actually on the same side of this issue as you yet I don't agree with the points you're making.

My point in all of this is, how do you measure the success of a recruiter over his career?

What I am getting is emotional arguments rather than facts. From 1990 through to 2008, Clayton was there, we never won a premiership but played in Finals in 2000, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010. (2009, 2010 players were mostly Clayton picks).

Was it his fault we didn't win the premiership - of course not as there are many other factors. Are finals a measure of success? Do we look at individual players and assess the overall list to measure success in recruiting?

I am not saying Clayton was a great recruiter, but he wasn't any worse than Dal.

[comrade]

Cooney Grff and Higgins probably have. Hell just Cooney and Griffin would likely have them covered

He *!*!*!*!ed plenty up but I don't see why it's his fault Cooney was traded after injuries hampered him as a brownlow medalist, or that Griff went a bit mental and/or found the club to be a bad place to be or that Higgins wanted out (and pick 26 was not exactly rubbish compensation, it's what we paid for Essendon's leading goalkicker)

It's kind of funny but I'm actually on the same side of this issue as you yet I don't agree with the points you're making.

So I'm assuming that because you're focussing on them, you agree that Cooney, Griffen and maybe Higgins were his only real hits in the first round from 2000-2008. If so, then that just proves he was ****ing terrible.

And even that comes with a few caveats:

Cooney was the standout pick 1 in the worst draft ever, so not even Clayton could stuff it up. Griffen was great for us for a long time, a strong performer in finals etc, but the way he finished up taints the legacy...and the fact he was picked 1 spot before one of the greatest players of the last 20-30 years. Higgins was ok I guess, but he was pick 11 so ok is kind of the bare minimum and yet, we only got pick 26 back in return for him at the peak of his career.

Clayton sucked and isn't fit to clean Dal's shoes.

[comrade]

My point in all of this is, how do you measure the success of a recruiter over his career?

What I am getting is emotional arguments rather than facts. From 1990 through to 2008, Clayton was there, we never won a premiership but played in Finals in 2000, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010. (2009, 2010 players were mostly Clayton picks).

Was it his fault we didn't win the premiership - of course not as there are many other factors. Are finals a measure of success? Do we look at individual players and assess the overall list to measure success in recruiting?

I am not saying Clayton was a great recruiter, but he wasn't any worse than Dal.

If he nailed more than just a few of his first rounders between 2000-2008, we probably win a flag during our 2008-2010 contending years.

Clayton's lasting legacy is that he was so poor at identifying top end talent that he left us in a major hole post 2010 that led to such a sudden decline and ultimately allowed Dalrymple, someone proficient at his job, the opportunity to pick up Bontempelli.

Clayton's incompetency led us to Bont so I guess I should be grateful.

[jeemak]

I just voted Tim English.

[S Coast Simon]

Legend effort Big English for getting a run this early. Must put in or Bevo wouldn't have him in. Good luck I'm excited to see what he can bring.

Surely any recruiter that didn't pick Franklin is a failure. I was in QLD and I new this kid was going to be one of the greatest players we would see. How we missed him was and still is beyond me. I'm sorry but Clayton was a failure with us a couple of great players in 8 years is definitely a failure. The talent we missed out on with all his experimental pick is scary. We should have been a lot stronger. Dal is good because he picks players that really want to get better.

[hujsh]

My point in all of this is, how do you measure the success of a recruiter over his career?

What I am getting is emotional arguments rather than facts. From 1990 through to 2008, Clayton was there, we never won a premiership but played in Finals in 2000, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010. (2009, 2010 players were mostly Clayton picks).

Was it his fault we didn't win the premiership - of course not as there are many other factors. Are finals a measure of success? Do we look at individual players and assess the overall list to measure success in recruiting?

I am not saying Clayton was a great recruiter, but he wasn't any worse than Dal.

The overall point Comrade makes that too many of of the first round picks didn't work out holds up. Even accounting for guys like Williams Clayton wouldn't have had a 50% success rate.

Few if any KPPs worked out bar Lake.

He wasn't the worst of all time or anything but compared to what Dal has done so far with only one bad draft he is obviously a better recruiter in some important way.

[bornadog]

I loved the way Bevo gave Tim almost the whole of the 3rd quarter in the ruck - great exposure for him.

[Twodogs]

I loved the way Bevo gave Tim almost the whole of the 3rd quarter in the ruck - great exposure for him.


He seemed to relish it too. He had some pretty good moments today.

[Ozza]

Not ideal that Tim had a car accident on the way to his 1st game!!!

He mentioned in his post game interview that he was rear ended (hard enough that his car got pushed into the car in front - and he had to leave his car and get an uber in to the ground). Pretty harrowing for a 19 year old about to play his first AFL game.

[JohnGentStand]

Who knew this thread was about Tim English?
I dont think he will stay in but he looks a brilliant prospect.
Taking out umpires to get to the footy is what I like to see :)

[always right]

Taking out umpires to get to the footy is what I like to see :)
He needs to pick his mark though.....Simon Meredith is probably the best umpire going around.

[comrade]

He needs to pick his mark though.....Simon Meredith is probably the best umpire going around.

Yep, don't mind Meredith but he found himself in a shocking position on Saturday. Could have been quite ugly had English hit him at the wrong angle (for both of them).

[bornadog]

Patrick Lipinski was our number one choice to debut this year. Any chance he gets a gig this Friday?

If so, he will be the 1000th Bulldog to put on the RWB.

[josie]

It would be great to see Lipinski given our v. likely last 2017 game. He is a forward/mid so great replacement for Stringer. Unless TBoyd ready to come back into side, although doubt whether we'd play Cloke, Roughy and TBoyd in same side at this late stage, and I recall Bevo saying v. unlikely TBoyd plays seniors this year which is fair enough. Cloke deserves another game as thought he played OK on Saturday, Roughy for ruck unless Campbell ready, so Lippy for Stringer makes sense. Other option is to give Honey a go to make final call on whether he stays on our list or is possibly traded.