Who would you have JMac target this year?

[bulldogtragic]

We have salary cap banked, and sooner or later an increased salary cap with a new EBA. Imagining that the trade currency and spare salary cap we would've used on Hurley is still around, who would have Jason McCartney chasing hard?

Here is the smorgasbord of uncontracted 2017 players:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/out_of_contract_players?year=2017

Josh Kelly would be a great get, but GWS trading him is not something they're going to want to do.

[KT31]

First two that come to mind are Fyfe and Shiel, both are long shots and knowing a few of Shiels relo's and they say he is pretty entrenched at GWS.
Tom Barrass would be a decent pick up and ready made replacement if we lose Adams.

[bulldogtragic]

First two that come to mind are Fyfe and Shiel, both are long shots and knowing a few of Shiels relo's and they say he is pretty entrenched at GWS.
Tom Barrass would be a decent pick up and ready made replacement if we lose Adams.

So Adams & Barass swap clubs if Adams requests a trade to WCE.

[Twodogs]

I read or saw somewhere only this morning that Josh Kelly is about to recommit to GWS. He's happy there and isn't interested in playing for a proper footy club.

[KT31]

So Adams & Barass swap clubs if Adams requests a trade to WCE.

Would be happy if this was the outcome.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I want JJ signed up as a first priority.

Then Caleb Daniel.

[LostDoggy]

Locking away all our guns would be a good starting point.

[bulldogtragic]

The thread has another assumption that we've signed up everyone we want to.

[LostDoggy]

I read or saw somewhere only this morning that Josh Kelly is about to recommit to GWS. He's happy there and isn't interested in playing for a proper footy club.

Didn't he and The Bont holiday together over Summer?
I'm sure Bonty has been in his ear about coming to play for a real club with recent Premiership sucess and a rich history of suburban roots?
If he wants to keep playing for The Plastic Fruit Bowl Oranges then stuff him!!

[Twodogs]

Didn't he and The Bont holiday together over Summer?
I'm sure Bonty has been in his ear about coming to play for a real club with recent Premiership sucess and a rich history of suburban roots?
If he wants to keep playing for The Plastic Fruit Bowl Oranges then stuff him!!

Precisely. I know there's money and the prospect of playing in a gun team and that but I just don't know why you'd choose to play for GWS over doing all that at a real club. Whether it's us or one of the other clubs with a history and a culture. That you meet legends of the club from. That have a supporter base.

I don't see how you'd stand out on the field after the prelim thinking that playing for GWS any acheivment is just going to be incremental and expected. Not celebrated and lionised. Surely some of them thought "get me to St Kilda or Melbourne, I want a chance at some of this"

[LostDoggy]

Sure they might,MIGHT be able to say that they were clubs very first premiership players but who is really gunna give a shit when they are funded and endorsed to succed by the AFEL.

[josie]

Didn't he and The Bont holiday together over Summer?
I'm sure Bonty has been in his ear about coming to play for a real club with recent Premiership sucess and a rich history of suburban roots?
If he wants to keep playing for The Plastic Fruit Bowl Oranges then stuff him!!

Love this, I'm gonna refer to them as plastic fruit bowl oranges too. Thanks Redders.

I despise quite a few GWS players, however I think Lobbe is/will be a gun and admire his overcoming a tough teenage/young adult period. Would be delightful if we could prize him free and would actually prefer him over their much vaunted midfielders. Also agree re-signing our young guns is first priority and confident our club is doing all it can to extend this amazing successful time.

[bornadog]

Didn't he and The Bont holiday together over Summer?
I'm sure Bonty has been in his ear about coming to play for a real club with recent Premiership sucess and a rich history of suburban roots?
If he wants to keep playing for The Plastic Fruit Bowl Oranges then stuff him!!

Seem to be mates - see here (https://www.instagram.com/joshuaakelly/)

Chef will like seeing The Bont in a Chelsea jumper

[Twodogs]

Seem to be mates - see here (https://www.instagram.com/joshuaakelly/)

Chef will like seeing The Bont in a Chelsea jumper


What's that? The Bont has signed with Chelsea? Noooooo!

[bornadog]

What's that? The Bont has signed with Chelsea? Noooooo!

https://scontent-syd2-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/14582234_186453101801523_1293184751263285248_n.jpg

[Twodogs]

https://scontent-syd2-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/14582234_186453101801523_1293184751263285248_n.jpg


Twodogs does not thank for this post! :eek:

[Axe Man]

Dustin Martin is seemingly on the move, putting contract talks off until the end of the year is usually a bad sign.

He is probably incredibly unlikely to be coming to us, but hypothetically would you take him? No doubt he is a gun player, but his character is questionable.

[Bulldog Joe]

Dustin Martin is seemingly on the move, putting contract talks off until the end of the year is usually a bad sign.

He is probably incredibly unlikely to be coming to us, but hypothetically would you take him? No doubt he is a gun player, but his character is questionable.

Would not want Martin anywhere near our group.

The salary he would be after is better used keeping the players we already have.

[bornadog]

Twodogs does not thank for this post! :eek:

May be you like him in this jumper

https://scontent-syd2-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/p750x750/14714452_1831312130489178_2635106978925379584_n.jpg

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Shiel won't be going anywhere

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-01-31/staying-put-outofcontract-dylan-shiel-happy-at-giants

Although i'm not sure the article can be taken seriously when it contains a mistake or two:

"Shiel’s declaration is sure to please Giants' fans" pretty sure that shouldn't be plural.

He also said he loves it up there so perhaps the whole article was being sarcastic.

[jazzadogs]

Fyfe to St Kilda has been a fairly strong rumour, I could also see them throwing around the sort of big money that Dusty wants. Culture be damned.

Shiel has said in an interview today that he has no plans to leave the AFEL Giants.

As for us, our needs are the same as always. If Adams leaves, then we definitely need another ready-to-go KPD. Outside run and skills is always helpful, but it needs to be someone who will buy in to the contested mantra as well.

As far as actual names, who knows? Barrass appeals, Kelly would be great. Either of the McGovern brothers would be ideal (but unlikely).

[KT31]

Dustin Martin is seemingly on the move, putting contract talks off until the end of the year is usually a bad sign.

He is probably incredibly unlikely to be coming to us, but hypothetically would you take him? No doubt he is a gun player, but his character is questionable.

Last time his manager through his name around he had to go back to Richmond with his tail between his legs.
Big no from me, he is not the sort of character you infect on a great bunch of kids.

[KT31]

Fyfe to St Kilda has been a fairly strong rumour, I could also see them throwing around the sort of big money that Dusty wants. Culture be damned.


Surely if the Saints have a shot we must be in the running, who wouldn't want the opertunity to play under Bevo ?



As far as actual names, who knows? Barrass appeals, Kelly would be great. Either of the McGovern brothers would be ideal (but unlikely).

Both have plenty of upside and either would slot nicely into our backline.
As mentioned in a previous post Barrass would be idea especially if we can't keep Adams, I can't see it being easy though as I think he is WA born and bread.

[merantau]

https://scontent-syd2-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/14582234_186453101801523_1293184751263285248_n.jpg

"Fake news. Didn't happen. This is just the left wing media. All lies."

[1eyedog]

If there is anything in the war chest after we have looked after our own I would love to have a crack at Zaharakis. Good player who would be in our best 22, is flexible, the right age bracket and can be a point of difference for minutes in a game.

He's 27 at the start of the season so get Stew to ask him if he wants a premiership before he retires.

[bulldogtragic]

If there is anything in the war chest after we have looked after our own I would love to have a crack at Zaharakis. Good player who would be in our best 22, is flexible, the right age bracket and can be a point of difference for minutes in a game.

He's 27 at the start of the season so get Stew to ask him if he wants a premiership before he retires.

Isn't DZ the new Jim Jones? I recall some media last year around him pressuring Hurley to stay and be 'loyal'.

[1eyedog]

Isn't DZ the new Jim Jones? I recall some media last year around him pressuring Hurley to stay and be 'loyal'.

Actually you're right.

[Mofra]

Isn't DZ the new Jim Jones? I recall some media last year around him pressuring Hurley to stay and be 'loyal'.
Zaka bleeds red and black. More chance of Bevo moving to Zimbabwe mid season.

I'm not sure the players we really want are gettable at a decent price. I'd consider an old, experienced defender who can provide leadership on field because we've lost every game we've played without Matty Boyd in the past two years and it's likely we lose Morris and Murphy in the next year or two as well.
Wood is a leader but not sure anyone else down there is.

[Twodogs]

Zaka bleeds red and black. More chance of Bevo moving to Zimbabwe mid season.

I'm not sure the players we really want are gettable at a decent price. I'd consider an old, experienced defender who can provide leadership on field because we've lost every game we've played without Matty Boyd in the past two years and it's likely we lose Morris and Murphy in the next year or two as well.
Wood is a leader but not sure anyone else down there is.

Yep a reliable and experienced defender (who can actually defend) is something we need a couple of. We lose three of the best over the next couple of years. There's a fair chance that we may have lost one already. Murph isn't back on the park yet.

[Mofra]

Pittard is an RFA we can consider (having passed over him to take Christian Howard).
Not much else really appeals from a FA/RFA perspective.

At a stretch, Rockliff as a Matty Boyd substitute.

[Twodogs]

Pittard is an RFA we can consider (having passed over him to take Christian Howard).
Not much else really appeals from a FA/RFA perspective.

At a stretch, Rockliff as a Matty Boyd substitute.


Continuing on our fine tradition of ex Brisbane captains on our list. Tried it once, won the flag!

[chef]

https://scontent-syd2-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/14582234_186453101801523_1293184751263285248_n.jpg

Yeah, I was all over that a couple of months back. Just when you thought the great man couldn't get any greater.

[Twodogs]

Yeah, I was all over that a couple of months back. Just when you thought the great man couldn't get any greater.




I think it's been Photoshopped.

[chef]

I think it's been Photoshopped.

Nah, i saw it on his twitter at the time.

[Remi Moses]

Yeah, I was all over that a couple of months back. Just when you thought the great man couldn't get any greater.

My god if that was a Chelsea mill wall or west Ham back in the day, you'd be seriously concerned

[Happy Days]

Pittard is an RFA we can consider (having passed over him to take Christian Howard).
Not much else really appeals from a FA/RFA perspective.


Please no; can't think of a player that I've seen be as careless with the ball as Pittard. If Boyd's kicking stayed at the same level upon moving to the backline then his game would resemble what Pittard's does now.

[Throughandthrough]

Pittard is an RFA we can consider (having passed over him to take Christian Howard).
Not much else really appeals from a FA/RFA perspective.

At a stretch, Rockliff as a Matty Boyd substitute.

IMO Pittard is the worst good player on an AFL list. And by close reports Rockliff is a shit bloke

[1eyedog]

Pittard is too inconsistent and undoes good work with poor disposal or bad decision making. He wouldn't be best 22.

[1eyedog]

Zach Williams would be an excellent Bob Murphy replacement, but we may already have that with Bailey Williams. The only other Giant I would consider to boost our back half if Adams goes is Tomlinson. I'm assuming Coniglio and Kelly will stay.

[bornadog]

Zach Williams would be an excellent Bob Murphy replacement, but we may already have that with Bailey Williams. The only other Giant I would consider to boost our back half if Adams goes is Tomlinson. I'm assuming Coniglio and Kelly will stay.

I wasn't that impressed with Tomlinson in the Prelim.

[1eyedog]

I wasn't that impressed with Tomlinson in the Prelim.

Me either but he may be a late bloomer. Is young tall strong and athletic. I think he may have potential and this is one of the reasons why he still hasn't made it onto Carlton's list. GWS rely on individual brilliance too much if you ask me and a run and gun style. He may be able to slot into the team as a role player ala. Hamling and under a good coach may blossom. Depends if we want to take the chance. I'm only interested off the back of the Adams rumors.

GVGjr was into him a few years back following Griffon's antics.

[Webby]

We were all stupid, once..

[Twodogs]

We were all stupid, once..


I'Ve been stupid more than once.

[Sedat]

Zach Williams would be an excellent Bob Murphy replacement, but we may already have that with Bailey Williams. The only other Giant I would consider to boost our back half if Adams goes is Tomlinson. I'm assuming Coniglio and Kelly will stay.
That kick by Zac Williams to Scully deep in the last qtr (that JJ was lucky not to be penalised 50m for encroaching in the protected zone) was as good a precision kick under pressure that there is.

[1eyedog]

That kick by Zac Williams to Scully deep in the last qtr (that JJ was lucky not to be penalised 50m for encroaching in the protected zone) was as good a precision kick under pressure that there is.

Yeah I know it. He's definitely my preferred option. Narrandera boy and Melbourne is an hour closer...

[Happy Days]

So GWS have flown into Melbourne to have a meeting with Josh Kelly.

As in the Josh Kelly that plays for GWS.

They probably should have just gotten drunk and called him 30 times, flying interstate to speak to a player that already plays for you just seems clingy. I'm not exactly totally nuanced in the art of negotiation, but that seems like a bad sign?

I'd be pretty unhappy if J-Mac wasn't making Kelly priority number one. What do you give to the club that has everything anyway?

[jazzadogs]

So GWS have flown into Melbourne to have a meeting with Josh Kelly.

As in the Josh Kelly that plays for GWS.

They probably should have just gotten drunk and called him 30 times, flying interstate to speak to a player that already plays for you just seems clingy. I'm not exactly totally nuanced in the art of negotiation, but that seems like a bad sign?

I'd be pretty unhappy if J-Mac wasn't making Kelly priority number one. What do you give to the club that has everything anyway?

We gave them an injured ex captain for a top draft pick last time. How does Matty Boyd feel about topping up his super?

[bornadog]

I'd be pretty unhappy if J-Mac wasn't making Kelly priority number one. What do you give to the club that has everything anyway?

Josh Kelly would be my number one target. We need an outside mid with some leg speed, good kick, racks up possessions and importantly, young and mates with The Bont :).

Yeah, they do have everything except games experience in the 26 year and above area. How about Suckling.

[GVGjr]

Not a high profile player now but I'd like to the club to have a chat to Melbournes Jack Trengove, He's been playing in the VFL all season and has performed very well.

It won't appeal to many people but he;s still got something to offer.

[lemmon]

Not a high profile player now but I'd like to the club to have a chat to Melbournes Jack Trengove, He's been playing in the VFL all season and has performed very well.

It won't appeal to many people but he;s still got something to offer.

Interesting one, he fits the 'good citizen' criteria. Would he be happy coming knowing he'd be a depth midfielder? I imagine at his stage he wants AFL football and would probably look at somewhere like Gold Coast or Brisbane who need some grunt.

[jeemak]

Interesting one, he fits the 'good citizen' criteria. Would he be happy coming knowing he'd be a depth midfielder? I imagine at his stage he wants AFL football and would probably look at somewhere like Gold Coast or Brisbane who need some grunt.

I don't think we take anyone similar to what we have who can't get a game elsewhere, unless there's special circumstances behind their reasons for not doing so.

[Mofra]

Not a high profile player now but I'd like to the club to have a chat to Melbournes Jack Trengove, He's been playing in the VFL all season and has performed very well.

It won't appeal to many people but he;s still got something to offer.
As a mid or a potential Matty Boyd replacement?
Injuries have ruined his pace.

[ratsmac]

As a mid or a potential Matty Boyd replacement?
Injuries have ruined his pace.

Yeah he is really slow from what I've seen. I can't recall him ever being overly quick either. If he is a good user of the footy he would be worth a chat. Sam Mitchell was never a quick player but his smarts and ball use more than cover his lack a leg speed. Jack is certainly no Mitchell but if he could be a role player.

[Ozza]

Is Jake Lever signed up yet?

[bornadog]

Is Jake Lever signed up yet?

I don't believe so. His coach said they are waiting for the player pay deal to be finalised.

[1eyedog]

Not a high profile player now but I'd like to the club to have a chat to Melbournes Jack Trengove, He's been playing in the VFL all season and has performed very well.

It won't appeal to many people but he;s still got something to offer.

Yep and he should be playing more AFL. His form in the VFL early this year was fantastic and he's had his first full preseason in 3 years. Getting drafted as an 18 year old and being made captain as a 20 year old isn't everyone's cup of tea. It may have been a heavy mental burden and maybe he needs a new start - a bit of Bevo may be the tonic. He was a bull when he arrived on the scene, a Koby Stevens who could think and kick.

I'd be in his ear two weeks ago.

[GVGjr]

As a mid or a potential Matty Boyd replacement?
Injuries have ruined his pace.

He appears to be moving well. I think there might be a role for him as a half forward who spends some time in the midfield.
He's a good mark for his size.

[GVGjr]

Mark Blicavs has been dropped by the Cats. I think he is a player we could utilise so he would be worth having a chat to.

[Doc26]

Sounds like Daniel McStay is holding out contract talks until later in season. Probably not in the calibre of Lever or May but given that he's besties with TBoyd it may help create an opening for us.

[KT31]

Year left on his contract but would love us to have a crack at Petracca.

[Axe Man]

Jake Lever and Daniel McStay in sights of Victorian clubs in this year’s trade period (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/jake-lever-and-daniel-mcstay-in-sights-of-victorian-clubs-in-this-years-trade-period/news-story/41488cc02f736fd6f6dc42a55b963898)

MELBOURNE is set to make a strong play to bring star Adelaide defender Jake Lever home to Victoria next season.

Lever and emerging Brisbane tall Daniel McStay (both 21) are primed for massive pay days with the Demons, Western Bulldogs and Hawthorn all seeking defensive reinforcements in this year’s trade period.

Demons’ champion Garry Lyon said Lever was the best young key defender on the market and worth upwards of $800,000 a season.

The Crows were adamant they would keep the 195cm backman, while the Lions were confident McStay was going nowhere after talks with the defender and his family last week.

The Lions are hopeful of thrashing out a deal for McStay within the next month.

After loading up on elite midfield talent in recent years, Melbourne is expected to aggressively pursue a backman to help crack its 53-year premiership drought.

The Herald Sun revealed last month every club has the ability to trade its future first-round pick before loose restrictions apply in 2019.

That means Hawthorn can trade aggressively again this year given its first 2018 selection is expected to be an early pick.

The Dees rated Lever near the top of the 2014 draft and strongly considered taking him.

But they were spooked by Lever’s ACL injury, which pushed him to the Crows at pick 14, and instead picked Christian Petracca and Angus Brayshaw.

The Dees want a strong-bodied interceptor to partner Oscar and Tom McDonald in the back half and have closely tracked Lever ever since he joined the Crows.

McStay and Lever are both out of contract at season’s end and have deferred contract talks throughout the early part of the year.

“We’ll speak to the club as soon as the CBA is done,” Lever told Adelaide radio 5AA.

“I’ll sit down with (manager Ned Guy) and (partner) Jess, who’s a pretty important part in it, and we’ll make that decision and and get the contract rolling.”

Clubs are impressed with Lever’s leadership and ability to read the play with his statistics mirroring triple All-Australian Alex Rance at the same age.

Lever leads the AFL in intercept possessions and was again among the best three players in the Crows’ win over St Kilda on Friday night, enhancing his reputation as the premier young key defender in the league.

Lever has conceded the fewest goals of any key defender on average over nine games in only his third season.

Lyon said Lever could anchor a team’s defence for the next decade.

“He (Lever) is that good he can command the top price for a defender,” Lyon said on SEN.

“He is an attacking animal and his body was the only thing you could put a question mark on (after a knee reconstruction).

“But in terms of setting up a defence for the next 10 years, he would just about be your No.1 pick.”

[Axe Man]

Mark Blicavs has been dropped by the Cats. I think he is a player we could utilise so he would be worth having a chat to.

What role do you see him playing? He was great when third man up was allowed, now I'm not sure what position he is suited to.

[bulldogtragic]

Both would be good gets above. I mentioned McStay last year, and with his best mate at the club maybe we can make a good pitch. Lever is excellent, but how can Adelaide not keep him. Surely they'd throw the kitchen sink at him.

[bornadog]

We are desperate for a tall backman, any of these two would be a great get. I feel Lever won't be gong anywhere so McStay it is.

[The Pie Man]

Imagine the headline puns should McStay leave Brisbane

[ratsmac]

I'd love Lever but I can't see him leaving the Crows. But never say ....Lever! Oh that's bad really bad. Sorry guys:o

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That Liam Jones looks a likely type in defense......His contract is up at year's end.......Worth a look??:p

[comrade]

Imagine the headline puns should McStay leave Brisbane

And Lever is ripe for punning. 'Lever flicks the switch' etc

[Axe Man]

So we think Lever won't leave and McStay won't stay? :eek:

[GVGjr]

What role do you see him playing? He was great when third man up was allowed, now I'm not sure what position he is suited to.

Defender who might even do a stint in the ruck

I agree he might be regarded as a player without a true position but he might fit a few roles for us

[bulldogtragic]

Defender who might even do a stint in the ruck

Out of curiosity, what's he worth on the trade table to you?

[GVGjr]

Out of curiosity, what's he worth on the trade table to you?

Really hard to do that valuation. Perhaps the value to Geelong might be to free up space for a GAJ return.
My view is we turned Hamling into a key defender and I think maybe we could do the same with Blicavs.

With not a lot of thought would a pick in or around the mid 30's be enough for them?

[Remi Moses]

Love Lever, but just not sure on Mcstay . Bris Vegas are just so far off broadway in the last few years I haven't seen them play much .

[bulldogtragic]

We are desperate for a tall backman, any of these two would be a great get. I feel Lever won't be gong anywhere so McStay it is.

Recent trades for these sorts is exchanging towards the top picks, I wonder if that'll cut it?

Dogs: 1st (11-18) & 2nd rounder (29-36) & 3rd rounder (via North, circa 43) -- McStay, Picks 19 (2nd) & 37 (3rd)
Lions: 1st (11-18) & 2nd rounder (29-36)& 3rd rounder (via North, circa 43)

Lions: Pick 1, 11-18, 29-36, 43, 55 (with a top draft academy prospect, giving them a mid round first rounder by upgrade and extra points with another upgrade and also our third will help them bigly)

Dogs: McStay, Picks 19 & 37 to package up for a KP player. Maybe Gunston. We get a young CHB & a mature CHF. Look to free agency for a midfielder, or JJ compo if he walks.

[Remi Moses]

Just had a peep at list management on Big Footy . Pretty embarrassing , they're talking about players ex partners and fallouts etc etc
Pathetic

[bulldogtragic]

Just had a peep at list management on Big Footy . Pretty embarrassing , they're talking about players ex partners and fallouts etc etc
Pathetic

Aren't you just talking about it now? :D

[bulldogtragic]

Tom Rockliff's stats competition wide:

Ranked 17th in Total Tackles
Ranked 2nd in Total Clearances
Ranked 12th in Inside 50s Per Game
Ranked 14th in Kicks Per Game
Ranked 15th in Disposals Per Game
Ranked 1st in clearances per game
Ranked 2nd in SuperCoach
Ranked 1st in AFL fantasy points
Ranked 6th in tackles per game
Ranked 7th in contested possessions



Free Agent...

[Bulldog4life]

Mark Blicavs has been dropped by the Cats. I think he is a player we could utilise so he would be worth having a chat to.

Blivacs was dropped but had soreness next to his name. Be interesting to see if he plays VFL

[lemmon]

Jasper Pittard has been left out this week and is also an unrestricted free agent

[Mantis]

Jasper Pittard has been left out this week and is also an unrestricted free agent

And is also an ordinary player.. plus he has a shit haircut, and an even worse tattoo.

Do not want!

[Twodogs]

Not a high profile player now but I'd like to the club to have a chat to Melbournes Jack Trengove, He's been playing in the VFL all season and has performed very well.

It won't appeal to many people but he;s still got something to offer.

We should try and get a job lot of Jack Trengoves, I wouldn't mind Port Adeliades. You're not worried about his foot injury? Isn't hus that one that can just flare up out of nowhere?


Just had a peep at list management on Big Footy . Pretty embarrassing , they're talking about players ex partners and fallouts etc etc
Pathetic

They go for quantity over quality over there.

[The Pie Man]

Just had a peep at list management on Big Footy . Pretty embarrassing , they're talking about players ex partners and fallouts etc etc
Pathetic

I presume it's this stuff that made it onto SEN yesterday - is this a sort of elephant in the room we could talk about? Smoke etc

[Mantis]

Blivacs was dropped but had soreness next to his name. Be interesting to see if he plays VFL

Chris Scott said on AFL360 that Blivacs has a knee issue which they had treated during the bye week and it kept him out last week as well.

[Bulldog4life]

Chris Scott said on AFL360 that Blivacs has a knee issue which they had treated during the bye week and it kept him out last week as well.

Thanks Mantis. Usually watch the show too but don't watch any footy shows when we lose.

[Dry Rot]

Should we be talking to any of these guys?

Out-of-favour stars

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-06-21/why-isnt-he-getting-a-game-your-clubs-outoffavour-stars?camefrom=EMCL_1708089_67210911

[bulldogtragic]

They use the term 'star' fairly freely.

[ledge]

Go the draft and get kids, we have a squad that's capable of winning the flag just strengthen it with kids who will take over as players retire.
Webb, Maclean etc will be better next year and English lipinski and others will the year later.
Don't go out paying big dollars for others.

[macca]

Go the draft and get kids, we have a squad that's capable of winning the flag just strengthen it with kids who will take over as players retire.
Webb, Maclean etc will be better next year and English lipinski and others will the year later.
Don't go out paying big dollars for others.

AGREEE ,develop our own . Free agents paying overs rarely come through, look at collingwood with mayne ( spell checker corrected t maybe, ironic, maybe it was a good for the player.... maybe it was too good to be true ) and wells. Hawthorn got free agents to fill a need and sold preimeirship window and did not pay overs like Lake who was a bargain.
Is there any players like Last years Marchbank or Hartley in the vfl level league? A few injury niggles and a couple of things to work on with their game?

[Twodogs]

Should we be talking to any of these guys?

Out-of-favour stars

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-06-21/why-isnt-he-getting-a-game-your-clubs-outoffavour-stars?camefrom=EMCL_1708089_67210911


They use the term 'star' fairly freely.


I'd be all over Alir Alir if I were us, he made a silly mistake missing training like that but he's played quality football in a position we are crying out for and right now his stock is at a bit of a low because the other kiddie, Melican is it? has taken his spot? None of the other names inspire any confidence though. I'd rather give Dal the draft pick to use.

[GVGjr]

Should we be talking to any of these guys?

Out-of-favour stars

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-06-21/why-isnt-he-getting-a-game-your-clubs-outoffavour-stars?camefrom=EMCL_1708089_67210911

There are a couple worth having a chat to. I've mentioned Melbournes Jack Trengove before and I'd imagine Aliir Aliir would spark some interest.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't think it's a dichotomy of kids or blokes not getting games at other clubs. For me, I think we have more than enough quality kids developing and we are likely to heavily draft in 2018 & 2019 with potentially West, Khamis, Liberatore & Kellett. So more kids again. While we are losing in the next two years mature players in Bob, Boyd, Morris, Cloke & Picken.

Maybe the plan is to look at cash converter trades (ie Biggs) or blokes wanting to move on (ie Suckling, or those in the article). But also mature very good players. Surely there's something between drafting kids or unplayed players. Do we keep recruiting kids to have them request trades out because we keep drafting best available (ie Hrovat). Dalrymple has said he doesn't think this draft is chock full of top end talent. Looking at the list, and our possible heavy draft involvement in future years, while losing mature players. I think this year is the year to go hard at the trade table.

[lemmon]

Should we be talking to any of these guys?

Out-of-favour stars

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-06-21/why-isnt-he-getting-a-game-your-clubs-outoffavour-stars?camefrom=EMCL_1708089_67210911

Durdin was a pretty highly rated youngster that's fallen off the radar a bit. I wouldnt mind a nibble there.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The more i think about it I think it may be worthwhile for our list management team to consider treading lightly this year's trade period and instead use both our cap surplus ( last season's 'Hurley' money) including the cap increase allocated with the new CBA to sign up our core players well into the future.
My main concerns about this season's trade period is that flush with the rise in salary cap many clubs are going to be making crazy bids to lure talent. This both presents a problem and an opportunity for us.

If we try to partake in trades or FA offers there is likely going to be an inflationary aspect that could see us overpaying and putting unnecessary pressure on our cap going forward.

The opportunity is that by keeping our powder dry whilst others lose their heads, we may be in a better position next year to purchase players in an environment where there is less competition and thus less inflationary pressure on the final price.

Also, flush with cash and a host of young talent we could focus our attention on offering longer term extensions to our guys who come out of contract next year and in 2019 and head off any potential raids.

I'd hate to be in a position like we were with Callan Ward again -where with a bit more list foresight we could've prevented him from even being a target for GWS.

You only have to look at Dusty, Fyfe, JJ and Kelly this year to know that should Bont, Stringer, Dahl et al get to their final contract year unsigned, clubs are going to come ridiculously hard at them. If we were to induce them now to add 2 more years to their contract this may make it very hard for others to plot ahead enough for it to be feasible to get them.
Thoughts?

[bulldogtragic]

Certainly see your position YHF. The catches I see with that are:

- sitting out another trade period.
- Rhylee West was Vic Metro U/16 MVP. He's in the U/18 VM squad now. We may have to use a high pick. So if we are looking a t next year, then we need to trade out some good players to get good trades in. I'm not sure who of value deserves to go.
- The Ward situation was not about our salary cap. Out list manager horribly low balled him, against all common sense despite having the cap to sign him. With a competent list manager now, there won't be another Ward scenario.
- Does sitting out a year absolutely guarantee us keeping all of guns? We can put $1,500,000 aside instead of pursuing a Fyfe/Martin. But if North through one of their 10 year $1,500,000 offers at Bonts, could that sway him away and we've sat out for nothing.
- As I read the CBA headlines, the salary cap will be incrementally increasing by around 1.5% per year or about $180,000. So we have more money year on year to sign up players, and other clubs also have more money to poach other players. Lowly teams can also bank salary cap and then offer monster offers that we can't compete with.
- If enough other clubs are thinking similar to yourself, that is keeping cash on hand for next year, then aren't we going to face the same problem next year too then?
- If we go to the draft again this year, and next two with at least West, Khamis, Liberatore & Kellett on our radar in elite squads, then we seem very limited to bring in top end talent other than free agency or trading players out.


I'm certainly not saying your wrong, it's certainly a case well made. But I think there's a case for the opposite, done in professional and responsible way. Dalrymple is already on the record that the top end of this draft isn't good, at least compared with the last few years where we picked up English, Collins & Dunkley. So if the value isn't there for Dal, then this is the draft year to attack the trade and free agency period, knowing we're off to the draft with some exciting prospects in 2018 & 2019. Even more so 'if' JJ is quitting the club.

What the JJ situation has shown that the club can throw a large sum of money at a player, and they can still go. Banking cap to try to sign more players up sounds ok, but what happens if they get better offers anyway? They'll leave just like JJ might. JMac will be Forcasting ahead for all our out of contract players, what the club thinks they're worth, plus a buffer and then offset by annual rises in the cap. With our very healthy position we still have a lot of cap to pursue top end talent, but that doesn't mean irresponsible offers. I see the stars above aligning for this to be the year we go aggressively in being prepared to trade multiple good picks and free agency.

So I don't want us to get left behind this year. Gordo has said expect a lot more player movements from now on in. I take from his broader comments that things will start to move towards other professional sports where players move at a whim/more money. If he's right about it, that beast will bite us no matter what. Especially when we are down. The key to riding these changes with success, I think, is when in a period of success use free agency and trade as best you can. Get as many good players in (on responsible moderate to large contracts) to improve your list in your window. Like now. For when it turns, the 'old big' clubs will be launching raids on our guys no matter what. I think it was Stringer last year say footy is a business and never say never about anything. I'm not sure the one club player will be what it used to. If say Stringer was uncontracted and were are in a bottom 5 stage, we offer him $1,200,000. Collingwood is in the hunt for a premiership and offer him the same cash. I think he'd leave for the same money and chance at another premiership. So while we are currently the hunter to good players to come and get good money and a premiership or two (maybe), I'd like us to make hay while the sun shines which is this off season. Or that's my view anyway.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

You make a well reasoned and articulate case BT.
After reading your analysis i concede its not a binary decision either. With the way our finances cap wise appear you are saying we can do both; that is responsibly attemp to trade in talemt without it necessarily hobbling us in terms of retaining our own young talent.
The only contention i would make to your analysis is with reference to us potentially having to use high picks for West, Kellet, Libba amd Khamis thus preventing us from getting access to high end talent.
If we are prepared to use high picks on them in the first place dpesn't that by definition mean we view them as such and therefore we're not missing out?

If indeed we are going to need picks next year to secure these father son/zone talent and if Dalrymple does truly believe the top end talent is weak this year then it might indicate another strategy is necessary. We may need to look at trying to offload our first round pick this year or trade down and secure more picks in next year's draft?

Thanks for the detailed analysis bt. I think you make a sound case for responsible activity this trade period.

[bulldogtragic]

You make a well reasoned and articulate case BT.
After reading your analysis i concede its not a binary decision either. With the way our finances cap wise appear you are saying we can do both; that is responsibly attemp to trade in talemt without it necessarily hobbling us in terms of retaining our own young talent.
The only contention i would make to your analysis is with reference to us potentially having to use high picks for West, Kellet, Libba amd Khamis thus preventing us from getting access to high end talent.
If we are prepared to use high picks on them in the first place dpesn't that by definition mean we view them as such and therefore we're not missing out?

If indeed we are going to need picks next year to secure these father son/zone talent and if Dalrymple does truly believe the top end talent is weak this year then it might indicate another strategy is necessary. We may need to look at trying to offload our first round pick this year or trade down and secure more picks in next year's draft?

Thanks for the detailed analysis bt. I think you make a sound case for responsible activity this trade period.

Thanks, I've never been called well reasoned or articulate! :D

Case in point, was my inarticulate reference to the FS/Academy boys. We may need to use high picks to secure them, which is as you say, accessing good talent. What I meant to say, is that if we do need to use high picks (which is a good problem to have) then we can't really trade our first and second rounders in the next two years to trade in talented players from other clubs. The only way we could bring in talent from other clubs, in a wait and see strategy, is free agency or trading away some very good players of ours. So if we want to keep the list together for as long as possible and not trade out, then this year's top picks represent good trade currency and an opportunity. I'd rather trade out a pick this year, then say trade out a Wallis/Dahl next year to facilitate player trades.

JMac & Dahl will have to work really close to hopefully project where these boys might end up. One option is to trade for a future pick next year if Dal says we need it. The other option is to see what happens next year, and if necessary get another points pick by either (a) doing a combined pick draft points trade or (b) grabbing a teams 2018 pick for a projected lesser 2019 pick. But that could create another headache. What's likely is that some fringe players with small value may request trades and for an extra 10 pick upgrade type deal to net us additional points. The AFEL have made this such a confusing area when it's rolling potentially over several years.

The catch we agree on is restraint and responsibility. I trust JMac to wheel and deal in a way that the bigger picture is seen, beyond say the last Malthouse year at Carlton. I have no problems with spending big, but the right players on the right deals. Unlike North who are throwing $1,000,000 contracts at everyone erratically. But we will be fine.


As an aside, a complete aside to the convo, I wasn't going to start a thread but we all need to understand the inflationary effect on contracts. For instance, Nat Fyfe was a million dollar player prior to the CBA. A basic 20% rise without a performance rise instantly makes Nat Fyfe a $1,200,000 player. If Josh Kelly was a $700,000 player, he's now $840,000 without factoring in performance. So as footy fans we are going to hear bigger numbers now across players and instinctively think they're maybe not worth that. They're still taking up the same percentage of the salary cap, just inflation to the actual dollar value. On JJ I reckon he's a $500,000 player and the clubs rumoured offer was $600,000 (20%), so I'm not sure what metric his manager is working off unless he's got a secret monster offer.

[Remi Moses]

Mark Stevens mentioned on 7 News that we're into Jake Lever

[KT31]

Mark Stevens mentioned on 7 News that we're into Jake Lever

Been reported a couple of time in the last week or so, would be very happy if we landed him.

[Remi Moses]

Been reported a couple of time in the last week or so, would be very happy if we landed him.

Ditto . Would be a great get

[Dry Rot]

Who are Khamis & Kellett?

[bulldogtragic]

Who are Khamis & Kellett?

Buku Khamis - Academy
Josh Kellett - FS

Check out the father-son thread, a few of us have put a fair bit in that thread.

[Doc26]

Mark Stevens mentioned on 7 News that we're into Jake Lever

Challenge to make a trade work to satisfy Adelaide.

Bit provocative but could we make something work with Carlton and Adelaide involved that might involve TBoyd, Gibbs and Lever?

[Twodogs]

Thanks, I've never been called well reasoned or articulate! :D


You quote an Iggy Pop song in your sig.


Who are Khamis & Kellett?


Khamis is a highlight reel we hope to take next year as an academy pick which makes him part of the bidding process for F/S and Mark Kellett was our last great #4 before the Bont. His son can play a bit and is eligible as a F/S for us.

So we are going to need lots of points over the next couple of draft periods because lots of kids like Rhylee West and Oliver Libba are eligible next year

[jeemak]

Are rating Kellet ahead of Cross TD?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Challenge to make a trade work to satisfy Adelaide.

Bit provocative but could we make something work with Carlton and Adelaide involved that might involve TBoyd, Gibbs and Lever?

Yep. Will take some creative magic to make that work. Lucky we have BT to proffer a deal that would make a Philadelphia lawyer's head spin!

[bulldogtragic]

Yep. Will take some creative magic to make that work. Lucky we have BT to proffer a deal that would make a Philadelphia lawyer's head spin!

Easy... Or I think it's simple if JJ quits and picks Freo. If Freo have about pick 7 (compo for Fyfe) and we have about pick 12.

JJ and our picks 12 & 30 - for - Crozier (or similar talent player) and their picks 7 & 24

JMac then has to find the best player/s to use 7, 24 & 40. Be it Josh Kelly, Jake Lever etc. - In addition to free agency.

No need to trade anyone else out if JJ walks to Freo.

[Twodogs]

Are rating Kellet ahead of Cross TD?

God no, He's so unobtrusive I forgot him. Not many better than Crossy.

[Bulldog4life]

Mark Stevens mentioned on 7 News that we're into Jake Lever

We were keen on him in the initial draft too.

[Remi Moses]

Remember hearing that also . Super talent

[bulldogsthru&thru]

What are peoples thoughts on Mitch Hannan and why we didn't draft him? We need a decent small/mid goal kicker and he was right under our noses last year. He played really well for us in Footscray and would have been handy this season

[bornadog]

What are peoples thoughts on Mitch Hannan and why we didn't draft him? We need a decent small/mid goal kicker and he was right under our noses last year. He played really well for us in Footscray and would have been handy this season

We had picks 19, 28, 49. Hannan went at pick 46. Would you have picked him up with 28?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We had picks 19, 28, 49. Hannan went at pick 46. Would you have picked him up with 28?

Nope. That'll do it.

Anyone know if we planned to get him at 49? Bloody Melbourne. I want Crossy back too, what's he thinking being down there?

[Doc26]

What are peoples thoughts on Mitch Hannan and why we didn't draft him? We need a decent small/mid goal kicker and he was right under our noses last year. He played really well for us in Footscray and would have been handy this season

On draft night it felt like both Ben Long and Mitch Hannan were taken (stolen) by St.Kilda and Melbourne just before we had the opportunity to do so with our next selection in the draft. Whether we would have used our 2nd pick on Ben Long only those in the inner sanctum would know. Taking Pat Lapinski with our 2nd round pick 28 seems a reasonable selection by us, arguably a better option than picking Long or Mitch Hannan who then went with Melbourn'e 3rd round selection. Only time will tell but I'm fine with it.

Melbourne taking Hannan with their third round pick at pick 46 scuttled any thinking we might have had for using our pick 49 on him. Hopefully Lewis Young proves to be a great pick up.

[Axe Man]

Cross Daniel McStay off the list, he has lived up to his name and re-signed with the lions until the end of 2019.

[bulldogtragic]

Nope. That'll do it.

Anyone know if we planned to get him at 49? Bloody Melbourne. I want Crossy back too, what's he thinking being down there?

I think a senior member on here suggested we were looking at him at 49.

[bulldogtragic]

Cross Daniel McStay off the list, he has lived up to his name and re-signed with the lions until the end of 2019.

Lions re-signing young talent. Good for them. Moves us harder at May or Lever then I'd guess.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Lions re-signing young talent. Good for them. Moves us harder at May or Lever then I'd guess.

Only Lever is left. May staying

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-06-27/no-may-about-it-as-star-sun-says-hell-stay

[GVGjr]

We had picks 19, 28, 49. Hannan went at pick 46. Would you have picked him up with 28?

Well those are the picks we ended up with however we could have grabbed him in the 40's as we had pick 40.
My understanding is we traded up to get Long but got pipped by the Saints. I think there is a chance this also happened with Hannan.

[bulldogtragic]

Only Lever is left. May staying

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-06-27/no-may-about-it-as-star-sun-says-hell-stay

Getting harder now. Bloody Hurley. Only McKenzie & Trengrove free agents, unless they've signed up.

If JJ is on the move, at least he gives us currency at Lever one way or the other.

[GVGjr]

Getting harder now. Bloody Hurley. Only McKenzie & Trengrove free agents, unless they've signed up.

If JJ is on the move, at least he gives us currency at Lever one way or the other.

What could we realistically expect in terms of a draft pick for JJ?

[bulldogtragic]

What could we realistically expect in terms of a draft pick for JJ?

I've run through a few different scenarios. It depends on who we are dealing with, and of course, if he is leaving.

[jeemak]

At this stage a straight swap for a first round pick in the high singles or low teens is the best we could hope for. If he plays poorly for the rest of the year I would assume the offer that is presumably in front of him will evaporate.

[Happy Days]

Ben Reid (who's been linked to us many times) just got dropped by the Pies, and Matt Scharenberg (who I believe we were keen on in his draft year) can't get a game. Any interest here? They can definitely both play.

I'm unsure of their contract status.

[Axe Man]

Ben Reid (who's been linked to us many times) just got dropped by the Pies, and Matt Scharenberg (who I believe we were keen on in his draft year) can't get a game. Any interest here? They can definitely both play.

I'm unsure of their contract status.

Both contracted until the end of 2018. They have stuck with Scharenburg through his multiple injury problems so you wouldn't think he would go anywhere this year.

[bulldogtragic]

What could we realistically expect in terms of a draft pick for JJ?

So I've thought about it. If I'm Freo I'd be looking at St Kilda having something like picks 3 & 9 and be encouraging Fyfe towards them. Perhaps pick 6 for picks 3 & 9. WCE could have pick 11. Something around a straight trade at 9 or 11 would be fair value. So hopefully he wants Freo and we get pick 9.

So that'd give us 9, 10, 28 & 38. As I've previously said I'd target a draft points trade with Brisbane owing to Callenden going before their pick 19. The draft points trade we did with GCS last year was a net 170 points extra to GCS. Our picks 28 & 38 would be an extra 171 points to Brisbane. So it's about right, we can throw in a Honey or Campbell as steak knives if they had interest. So that (hopefully) gets us pick 19.

So then we have picks 9, 10 & 19 with nothing to use before pick 80 unless we trade fringe players around. The question is what can we trade them for. Last year Tom Mitchell was pick 14 and O'Meara was about pick 10 and a (future) second rounder. So is this achievable?

Josh Kelly - Pick 9 & 2018 Second Rounder/Pick 19
Jake Lever - Pick 10 & Pick 19/2018 Second Rounder (with or without Hamilton)

Adelaide were forcefully told if they want to talk Gibbs they need two first rounders. They'd have pick 10, 15-18 & 19. Enough to get Gibbs (pick 10 & 15-18) and an Allir Allir type (pick 19).
GWS get yet another top 10 pick and second rounder to use of trade in more top end talent. Yeh for them.
Dogs get two ready to go players. Won't be in the draft until about pick 80, or a smidge earlier if fringe trades occur, and will worry about draft points in 2018 in 2018 (with our first and third picks in tact).

Free agency available to JMac with a lot of cash. May one or even two to really bulk up the best 22 for Round 1 2018.

[bulldogtragic]

And I'd throw a four year contract worth about $600,000 at Tom Rockliff. That's about what Hawthorn gave Frawley and it netted Melbourne pick 3 compo. He's avaging nearly 30 touches a game in the top category across the league for contested possessions, clearances and inside 50's with a much better disposal efficiency than Dusty Martin. If making sure they get good compo, pick 2, helps us secure the pick 19 above that's good too.

Seperate trades though, no dodgy stuff.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So I've thought about it. If I'm Freo I'd be looking at St Kilda having something like picks 3 & 9 and be encouraging Fyfe towards them. Perhaps pick 6 for picks 3 & 9. WCE could have pick 11. Something around a straight trade at 9 or 11 would be fair value. So hopefully he wants Freo and we get pick 9.

So that'd give us 9, 10, 28 & 38. As I've previously said I'd target a draft points trade with Brisbane owing to Callenden going before their pick 19. The draft points trade we did with GCS last year was a net 170 points extra to GCS. Our picks 28 & 38 would be an extra 171 points to Brisbane. So it's about right, we can throw in a Honey or Campbell as steak knives if they had interest. So that (hopefully) gets us pick 19.

So then we have picks 9, 10 & 19 with nothing to use before pick 80 unless we trade fringe players around. The question is what can we trade them for. Last year Tom Mitchell was pick 14 and O'Meara was about pick 10 and a (future) second rounder. So is this achievable?

Josh Kelly - Pick 9 & 2018 Second Rounder/Pick 19
Jake Lever - Pick 10 & Pick 19/2018 Second Rounder (with or without Hamilton)

Adelaide were forcefully told if they want to talk Gibbs they need two first rounders. They'd have pick 10, 15-18 & 19. Enough to get Gibbs (pick 10 & 15-18) and an Allir Allir type (pick 19).
GWS get yet another top 10 pick and second rounder to use of trade in more top end talent. Yeh for them.
Dogs get two ready to go players. Won't be in the draft until about pick 80, or a smidge earlier if fringe trades occur, and will worry about draft points in 2018 in 2018 (with our first and third picks in tact).

Free agency available to JMac with a lot of cash. May one or even two to really bulk up the best 22 for Round 1 2018.

Not meaning to blow smoke up your proverbial, but Jayzus you've got a level of deep understanding of these trade machinations. Not to mention a flair for marrying up feasible outcomes based on potential scenarios that may be suitable for ceetain trade partners.

I mean it's not that these will necessarily transpire as you propose; there's too many unknown variables at play. But jees its certainly an improvement on the old '5 of our crap players equals 1 gun player' that is often bandied about on other sites.

It really adds to the quality of debate on this forum. Nice work BT.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

And I'd throw a four year contract worth about $600,000 at Tom Rockliff. That's about what Hawthorn gave Frawley and it netted Melbourne pick 3 compo. He's avaging nearly 30 touches a game in the top category across the league for contested possessions, clearances and inside 50's with a much better disposal efficiency than Dusty Martin. If making sure they get good compo, pick 2, helps us secure the pick 19 above that's good too.

Seperate trades though, no dodgy stuff.

Rockliff may also make sense given we are very likely to lose 3 very senior leaders come season end in Boyd, Murphy & Morris.

[Dry Rot]

How did WCE McKenzie go today?

[bulldogtragic]

How did WCE McKenzie go today?

Good enough for an FA offer if we don't land Lever.

[bulldogtragic]

Not meaning to blow smoke up your proverbial, but Jayzus you've got a level of deep understanding of these trade machinations. Not to mention a flair for marrying up feasible outcomes based on potential scenarios that may be suitable for ceetain trade partners.

I mean it's not that these will necessarily transpire as you propose; there's too many unknown variables at play. But jees its certainly an improvement on the old '5 of our crap players equals 1 gun player' that is often bandied about on other sites.

It really adds to the quality of debate on this forum. Nice work BT.

Thanks YHF. I think there's just two key parts in my thoughts. JJ getting first round at Essendon (pick 9), WCE (pick 11) or Freo (pick 8 give or take). Then putting a good draft points trade to Brisbane to get pick 19.

So say it's 3 picks between 9 & 19 then that's where we are then in a position to make calls. So I'm wanting to see those two done quick. If we landed a Fyfe or Rockliff FA, we may not want to invest in Kelly in addition. If we landed McKenzie as a FA we may not want to over invest in Lever. If I'm JMac, until I can see that we can deliver it well to forwards then I don't want to invest in any more high cost forwards at this stage. As you say lots of moving parts, but I hope we can get can to three between picks 9-19, plunder free agency and trade aggressively (& responsibly).

[jeemak]

Paul Puopolo is contracted with the Hawks to the close of 2018. Is he the type of player we could interest Hawthorn parting with to help get them back into the draft or bring some younger talent onto their list?

I am concerned about the prospect of Smith being our major tackling forward given his history of injury, we use Dahl in the middle for significant chunks and in my view lack a specialist forward pocket.

If so, what would he cost given he'll be 30 next year, and how quickly will he drop off form wise as he ages?

[bulldogtragic]

Paul Puopolo is contracted with the Hawks to the close of 2018. Is he the type of player we could interest Hawthorn parting with to help get them back into the draft or bring some younger talent onto their list?

I am concerned about the prospect of Smith being our major tackling forward given his history of injury, we use Dahl in the middle for significant chunks and in my view lack a specialist forward pocket.

If so, what would he cost given he'll be 30 next year, and how quickly will he drop off form wise as he ages?

I was thinking about this issue (forward pocket) and agree with you, and I ended up falling with looking at Devon Smith. I reckon they'd want something very good for Poppy, and I'm not sure we will get enough years out of him to cover the outlay.

[Ozza]

I was thinking about this issue (forward pocket) and agree with you, and I ended up falling with looking at Devon Smith. I reckon they'd want something very good for Poppy, and I'm not sure we will get enough years out of him to cover the outlay.

Would be surprised if we could pry out Devon Smith. Hearing him speak about the Giants, he sounds very committed to the club and his team mates.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Would be surprised if we could pry out Devon Smith. Hearing him speak about the Giants, he sounds very committed to the club and his team mates.

Won't be an easy decision for him.

Know him/his family - he has close ties at home - but he is close with a few of the players up there.

[jeemak]

It might have been in this thread, I called out Devon Smith as my main priority from a listing of un-contracted players that was posted.

Get him right body wise, he'll be an absolute gun.

[bornadog]

It might have been in this thread, I called out Devon Smith as my main priority from a listing of un-contracted players that was posted.

Get him right body wise, he'll be an absolute gun.

I think he is currently negotiating a new contract.

[Topdog]

Someone who can kick well into the F50

[bornadog]

Someone who can kick well into the F50

Eagles on Saturday showed how to kick a ball around the ground and find a target and in the end that was the difference, ie execution of skills.

Although we have a couple of good kickers, overall we are no where near the likes of Eagles, GWS, Hawks and a few other teams. Even our good kickers like Murphy, Dale, Bont stuffed up on Saturday.

I don't understand why Murphy kept slamming the ball long into the forward 50, especially in the last when the scores were close. We should have just steadied and found a man closer to the action before just bombing it.

[always right]

I don't understand why Murphy kept slamming the ball long into the forward 50, especially in the last when the scores were close. We should have just steadied and found a man closer to the action before just bombing it.

It was actually the only time it made sense as we pushed Roughy forward and finally had a tall who could make a contest. It was only late in the game where McGovern and Co picked us off. The first three quarters were another matter.

[always right]

It might have been in this thread, I called out Devon Smith as my main priority from a listing of un-contracted players that was posted.

Get him right body wise, he'll be an absolute gun.

Geez that would test me. He has talent but is one of my most disliked players with all his false bravado.

[azabob]

Geez that would test me. He has talent but is one of my most disliked players with all his false bravado.

Surely Green and Bugg are ahead of him in the false bravado stakes?

[always right]

Surely Green and Bugg are ahead of him in the false bravado stakes?

It's a close call.

[bornadog]

Surely Green and Bugg are ahead of him in the false bravado stakes?

They all have punchable faces at GWS and some ex GWS (not Boydy of course :D )

[hlnbidoffer]

They all have punchable faces at GWS and some ex GWS (not Boydy of course :D )


Lol, they all have punchable faces. I actually get more anxious watching GWS now then I do when watching the dogs. I think the level of hate I have for that club just gets too much! Hate how the AFL has just gifted them a dynasty team..

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Lol, they all have punchable faces. I actually get more anxious watching GWS now then I do when watching the dogs. I think the level of hate I have for that club just gets too much! Hate how the AFL has just gifted them a dynasty team..

So glad we pipped them last year. We got our much deserved flag before this manufactured monstrosity takes over.

[ledge]

So glad we pipped them last year. We got our much deserved flag before this manufactured monstrosity takes over.
So true, we cashed in early just before they make a mockery of the competition and the fans turn away in droves.

[LostDoggy]

It might have been in this thread, I called out Devon Smith as my main priority from a listing of un-contracted players that was posted.

Get him right body wise, he'll be an absolute gun.

He is a local, Werribee side of Geelong I think.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He is a local, Werribee side of Geelong I think.

Lara.

[Remi Moses]

Wow ! Just reported on Seven that we've offered Lever 5 years at 4.5 mil.
Tend to recall we'd offered Patton big money , but Boyd was their intended target.
Could Kelly be a possibility ?

[dadsgirl16]

Lever apparently...offered big bucks by us

[Bulldog4life]

Wow ! Just reported on Seven that we've offered Lever 5 years at 4.5 mil.
Tend to recall we'd offered Patton big money , but Boyd was their intended target.
Could Kelly be a possibility ?

I recall there was a problem with Patton's medical.

[Eastdog]

Lever apparently...offered big bucks by us

$850K I think. Just broke on 7news.

[bornadog]

Lever apparently...offered big bucks by us
Multi million dollar offer

[Eastdog]

Multi million dollar offer

Before the sports report they said something like $4million.

[AndrewP6]

5 years at 850k a year.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Before the sports report they said something like $4million.

Interesting. I thought from recent reports that Lever had said he was ready to negotiate a new deal with Adelaide now that the new CBA had been settled.
I hope this doesn't end up like the Hurley situation where we were effectively used as a bargaining tool to shake a better offer from the Bombers.

[bulldogtragic]

I'd be happy with this. I'd be looking at three main talls back in Lever, Cordy, Fletch or Collins. I'd make Adams the genuine swing man, as I thought he was OK as a forward. And baring injury, Roughy never goes to fullback again.

Adelaide can use the compo to get Gibbs. So this could be a winning trade all round.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting. I thought from recent reports that Lever had said he was ready to negotiate a new deal with Adelaide now that the new CBA had been settled.
I hope this doesn't end up like the Hurley situation where we were effectively used as a bargaining tool to shake a better offer from the Bombers.

That's my thoughts also . Leveridge ?
I'll see myself out

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That's my thoughts also . Leveridge ?
I'll see myself out

Hey.. i went to a lot of effort to avoid that pun....and you've just undone it all!

[bornadog]

Jake is only 21 years old, 194cm. 5 year offer at 850k per year would be a great acquisition.

[bulldogtragic]

So I've thought about it. If I'm Freo I'd be looking at St Kilda having something like picks 3 & 9 and be encouraging Fyfe towards them. Perhaps pick 6 for picks 3 & 9. WCE could have pick 11. Something around a straight trade at 9 or 11 would be fair value. So hopefully he wants Freo and we get pick 9.

So that'd give us 9, 10, 28 & 38. As I've previously said I'd target a draft points trade with Brisbane owing to Callenden going before their pick 19. The draft points trade we did with GCS last year was a net 170 points extra to GCS. Our picks 28 & 38 would be an extra 171 points to Brisbane. So it's about right, we can throw in a Honey or Campbell as steak knives if they had interest. So that (hopefully) gets us pick 19.

So then we have picks 9, 10 & 19 with nothing to use before pick 80 unless we trade fringe players around. The question is what can we trade them for. Last year Tom Mitchell was pick 14 and O'Meara was about pick 10 and a (future) second rounder. So is this achievable?

Josh Kelly - Pick 9 & 2018 Second Rounder/Pick 19
Jake Lever - Pick 10 & Pick 19/2018 Second Rounder (with or without Hamilton)

Adelaide were forcefully told if they want to talk Gibbs they need two first rounders. They'd have pick 10, 15-18 & 19. Enough to get Gibbs (pick 10 & 15-18) and an Allir Allir type (pick 19).
GWS get yet another top 10 pick and second rounder to use of trade in more top end talent. Yeh for them.
Dogs get two ready to go players. Won't be in the draft until about pick 80, or a smidge earlier if fringe trades occur, and will worry about draft points in 2018 in 2018 (with our first and third picks in tact).

Free agency available to JMac with a lot of cash. May one or even two to really bulk up the best 22 for Round 1 2018.

So Stevo says we've thrown $850,000 for 5 years at Lever. Which I'm in favour of. Would picks 10 & 19 (if we could prize it from Brisbane)/2018 Second Rounder get the job done? It did for O'Meara last year. (Top 10 pick, plus virtual late first rounder/second next year) (Especially if that delivers them Gibbs)

That would still leave us JJ compo to trade with (plus either 19/2018 second rounder) and free agency to explore.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Lever? Yes please!!!!!

[GVGjr]

Crazy money I would have thought but I guess given the salary cap increase it's probably around the mark. I need some more time to consider this. What would we have to give up?

Can he play on the beasts?

Makes Friday nights game a bit more interesting

[anfo27]

Lever is a gun! Get it done JMac. They need mids & we have plenty.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'd rather Kelly but would be happy with Lever

[bornadog]

Lever is a gun! Get it done JMac. They need mids & we have plenty.

Who would you give up? Caleb Daniel to go home? You have to give up someone good to get someone good.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Please no to Daniel. We need to retain what good ball users we have

[S Coast Simon]

Wouldn't mind joining Ben and Sam Reid at the doggies. That would be a fair addition to the line up. A couple of good years out of Ben and Sam can play a few more than that.

[bulldogtragic]

Who would you give up? Caleb Daniel to go home? You have to give up someone good to get someone good.

They want Gibbs.
We want Lever.
JJ wants big bucks and will give us something good to trade with.

Not sure why we'd put up another talented player, between our pick 10 and JJ, that's enough to get it done for both Lever & Gibbs. Everyone wins.

[dog town]

Why would we trade JJ? We may strengthen our defensive stocks but we significantly weaken another area we are arguably even weaker in. We need to be getting in ball carriers/pace not shipping it off. I am all for getting Lever but we cant afford to lose any of our ball carriers or top midfielders to do it. That would just make another even bigger problem.

Personally I would be looking to add some genuine quality to our mids or line breakers whether it is through trade or draft. That is costing us more than our back 50 personnel. Our defensive system relies on method more than personnel but at the moment they are not getting a chance to set up because our territory game is just not there.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Why would we trade JJ? We may strengthen our defensive stocks but we significantly weaken another area we are arguably even weaker in. We need to be getting in ball carriers/pace not shipping it off. I am all for getting Lever but we cant afford to lose any of our ball carriers or top midfielders to do it. That would just make another even bigger problem.

Personally I would be looking to add some genuine quality to our mids or line breakers whether it is through trade or draft. That is costing us more than our back 50 personnel. Our defensive system relies on method more than personnel but at the moment they are not getting a chance to set up because our territory game is just not there.

I don't think anyone is proposing trading JJ out of desire to move him on, more a realistic expectation that he is probably wanting to leave for a larger contract elsewhere. Whilst I'm sure most want JJ to re-sign, there comes a point where the rubber hits the road, and he either decides to recommit or we have to start making other plans.

It's not in the club's interest to simply wait until trade week to find JJ announces he wants to go. That puts us behind the 8 ball, both in trade terms for JJ (think Hamling and the disadvantage we were in there with his late call to go) as well as possible player acquisitions.

At some stage the impasse between what the club is offering and what JJ is asking for needs to come to a head and he needs to decide, so that the club can make forward plans, either including him or to position ourselves to extract the best outcome for the club.

[Happy Days]

So if we have $1m or however much it is by the end of 2019 tied up in Boyd, and $850k tied up in Lever, how exactly are we going to match the offers that come in for Bont?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So if we have $1m or however much it is by the end of 2019 tied up in Boyd, and $850k tied up in Lever, how exactly are we going to match the offers that come in for Bont?

I guess it depends on wage structures. We already have room in cap to heavily front load I would imagine. And i think Boyd's contract was heavily weighted in the front end. He will be 5 years into his 7 year deal when Bont's contract expires.

[Bulldog4life]

I guess it depends on wage structures. We already have room in cap to heavily front load I would imagine. And i think Boyd's contract was heavily weighted in the front end. He will be 5 years into his 7 year deal when Bont's contract expires.

Looking into a crystal ball it will be interesting to see what Boyd's second contract will be.

[LostDoggy]

Looking into a crystal ball it will be interesting to see what Boyd's second contract will be.

I think we will have to pay up because his first ended being a bargain.

[Bulldog4life]

With a number of players being brave enough to open up about their mental problems these huge payments to young players, still new to their craft, puts so much more pressure on them than ever before.

[1eyedog]

So if we have $1m or however much it is by the end of 2019 tied up in Boyd, and $850k tied up in Lever, how exactly are we going to match the offers that come in for Bont?

Murphy, Boyd and Morris gone this year. Picken will be gone the year the Bont talks open. Big funnel.

[bulldogtragic]

Murphy, Boyd and Morris gone this year. Picken will be gone the year the Bont talks open. Big funnel.

Cloke too next year. Plenty of room to move.

[always right]

Cloke too next year. Plenty of room to move.

Isn't Cloke only on $200k?

[bulldogtragic]

Isn't Cloke only on $200k?

Give or take. But added with the guys you listed, the sum total in surplus salary cap for Bont to be happy is there. As you say, I don't think there's need to be worrying about Bont or others being signed. I have a lot of faith in JMac to make sure the trains run in time.

[Ozza]

Isn't Cloke only on $200k?

Around $275-$285K I think

[bornadog]

On Jake Lever:


ADELAIDE won't rush contract talks with Jake Lever despite rival clubs bidding for the emerging defender.

Lever, who falls off-contract at season's end, is attracting interest from several clubs in his native Victoria.


The Western Bulldogs and Melbourne are reportedly tabling five-year offers of around $800,000 a season for the 21-year-old.


But Crows coach Don Pyke says the widespread interest in the backman won't hasten his club's contract negotiations.


"Jake wants to be at the footy club, we want Jake to be at the footy club," Pyke told reporters on Thursday.


"We will negotiate the appropriate deal and hopefully get that done soon."


Lever had waited until the AFL's fresh collective bargaining agreement was settled before entering talks with the Crows.


"We are in conversations with Jake and we continue to do that," Pyke said.


"And those contract things will fulfil in the due course of time.


"That is beyond our control as to who else might be interested in Jake at the moment."


Adelaide drafted Lever with its first pick in the 2014 national draft.

[GVGjr]

Do you think some on the team would ask why Lever is apparently worth 800K and JJ isn't?

For what its worth I don't think either player is worth 800K a season

Is Mitch McGovern from the Crows out of contract?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Do you think some on the team would ask why Lever is apparently worth 800K and JJ isn't?

For what its worth I don't think either player is worth 800K a season

Is Mitch McGovern from the Crows out of contract?

I would've thought Wet Toast would be McGoverns likely destination if he leaves the Crows.

[Remi Moses]

What's actually reported and the actual figure is could be poles apart

[jeemak]

Do you think some on the team would ask why Lever is apparently worth 800K and JJ isn't?

For what its worth I don't think either player is worth 800K a season

Is Mitch McGovern from the Crows out of contract?

Probably not given the last few weeks. They'd also be pragmatic enough to understand that it takes more to move a player than it usually does to keep a player (Hurley reportedly being the obvious exception!).

Quality tall players also come at a premium.

[Happy Days]

Do you think some on the team would ask why Lever is apparently worth 800K and JJ isn't?

For what its worth I don't think either player is worth 800K a season

Is Mitch McGovern from the Crows out of contract?

Wouldn't have thought so.

Would the same players be asking why Tom Boyd is worth a $1m and they aren't?

[kruder]

Do you think some on the team would ask why Lever is apparently worth 800K and JJ isn't?

For what its worth I don't think either player is worth 800K a season

Is Mitch McGovern from the Crows out of contract?


He sure is. The crows are in an interesting position given the amount of tall talent in their forward line they prob could handle loosing one to have a crack at another mid. Im not sure who is the current recruiting manger at the crows but he has done a great job considering they have lost a few key players over the years.

[GVGjr]

Wouldn't have thought so.

Would the same players be asking why Tom Boyd is worth a $1m and they aren't?

I don't think that stands up, we weren't knocking back a players contracts demands to accommodate Boyd and it was all done in a few days.
The only impasse for JJ appears to be money and it's been dragging on all season.
Apparently now we have the money for a young KP defender from another club.

[GVGjr]

He sure is. The crows are in an interesting position given the amount of tall talent in their forward line they prob could handle loosing one to have a crack at another mid. Im not sure who is the current recruiting manger at the crows but he has done a great job considering they have lost a few key players over the years.


Sensational job by the Crows. I stand to be corrected but I think I heard the other day they have no top 10 draft picks on their list.
They trade cleverly for players from other clubs, recruit well with the draft picks they have and probably most importantly develop players to a high standard. They have done very well.

[G-Mo77]

It was interesting hearing Bevo talk about our draft last season and how we haven't been able to call on our 2016 draft class. Does anyone think we should have gone harder at other teams players to top up? These picks will probably turn out ok long term I just can't help feel, now, that maybe we should have. Hurley falling through hurt and may have derailed our entire off-season?

2017 draft do we try and top up? Will the likes of English, Young or McHugh be ready for 2018? We're also going to have some significant departures next season it may not be such a smooth ride in 2018 either.

[GVGjr]

It was interesting hearing Bevo talk about our draft last season and how we haven't been able to call on our 2016 draft class. Does anyone think we should have gone harder at other teams players to top up? These picks will probably turn out ok long term I just can't help feel, now, that maybe we should have. Hurley falling through hurt and may have derailed our entire off-season?

2017 draft do we try and top up? Will the likes of English, Young or McHugh be ready for 2018? We're also going to have some significant departures next season it may not be such a smooth ride in 2018 either.

We weakened our list between the end of 2016 season and when the 2017 season started.
We should have cut harder into the delistings and looked to have added some depth.

The 3 you have mentioned I don't think will be ready for an extended run at senior footy next year either.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We weakened our list between the end of 2016 season and when the 2017 season started.
We should have cut harder into the delistings and looked to have added some depth.

The 3 you have mentioned I don't think will be ready for an extended run at senior footy next year either.

Can't disagree with any of this. It makes this coming off-season so interesting in being able to assess our true ability to manage our list. Some very brave calls for our recruiting team to make.

[GVGjr]

Can't disagree with any of this. It makes this coming off-season so interesting in being able to assess our true ability to manage our list. Some very brave calls for our recruiting team to make.

We need to cut into the list hard and assemble some early draft picks. If we can obtain a FA of quality then great but our focus needs to be around getting some good players at the club with a great work ethic from the draft table and topping up with a couple of low key additions from other clubs with a bit of experience that can fill a couple of roles for us.

The challenge for us from a recruiting perspective is how we assess our ability to bounce back and get focused again. If we believe we are just off the mark due to the premiership then we could possibly look at FA a bit harder but it's a very risky ploy if we have too many players that can't or won't commit 100%.

If there are 2 or 3 players that are still distracted from 2016 or aren't buying in on having another crack at it then we have to try and find them other homes and be prepared to reload again through the draft. Hard call but a most critical one to make.

[Remi Moses]

Tend to agree with the above , but it's difficult when players have contracts just to de-list players.
Had a night at the movies, so I've only seen the first half so far, but I just can't fathom how a team can fall away so badly .
It's clearly a combination of fitness , effort and intent . It's just totally unacceptable

[SquirrelGrip]

We weakened our list between the end of 2016 season and when the 2017 season started.
We should have cut harder into the delistings and looked to have added some depth.

The 3 you have mentioned I don't think will be ready for an extended run at senior footy next year either.

In theory at the start of the year, it didn't look so bad.

Coming in as virtually "new" from our Premiership Team were Crameri, Cloke, Murphy, Wallis, Redpath and Adams. Jong and Suckling also additions, plus developing young players including Dale, Williams, Webb and Collins.

In practice, we've coped much worse with this year's injuries than last year.

[GVGjr]

In theory at the start of the year, it didn't look so bad.

Coming in as virtually "new" from our Premiership Team were Crameri, Cloke, Murphy, Wallis, Redpath and Adams. Jong and Suckling also additions, plus developing young players including Dale, Williams, Webb and Collins.

In practice, we've coped much worse with this year's injuries than last year.

I cant agree with this, Wallis and Redpath were at best mid season players and there had to be a question mark on Murphy plus losing Hamling and Minson was always likely to test our depth in key position. Collins was always going to need two years at Footscray.
We took risks with the depth of the list and I think it's been a contributor to our current form.

The form displayed by so many players however, has been disappointing and we just haven't hit our straps. Pockets of our footy looks good and a some of it looks bad. We have also had no real answer from the coaching box but I also think we haven't had the right options to play.

[azabob]

GVGjr from memory you have always been an advocate for making more list changes than we typically do. How many list changes do you think we need to make this time?

[Sedat]

I cant agree with this, Wallis and Redpath were at best mid season players and there had to be a question mark on Murphy plus losing Hamling and Minson was always likely to test our depth in key position. Collins was always going to need two years at Footscray.
We took risks with the depth of the list and I think it's been a contributor to our current form.

The form displayed by so many players however, has been disappointing and we just haven't hit our straps. Pockets of our footy looks good and a some of it looks bad. We have also had no real answer from the coaching box but I also think we haven't had the right options to play.
Your pre season assertions have been proven correct but it is incredible to think that not a single player out of 44 on the list has made significant incremental improvement year on year. And worse, a large number of them have regressed sharply from their 2016 form. That is something the match committee would not have seen coming at all considering the youth of our list and clear capacity for improvement within (that hasn't materialised at all for whatever reason).

[ReLoad]

Your pre season assertions have been proven correct but it is incredible to think that not a single player out of 44 on the list has made significant incremental improvement year on year. And worse, a large number of them have regressed sharply from their 2016 form. That is something the match committee would not have seen coming at all considering the youth of our list and clear capacity for improvement within (that hasn't materialised at all for whatever reason).

The only argument I would insert is Bailey Dale, i really think he has improved a lot and the trend is certainly upwards with him

[GVGjr]

GVGjr from memory you have always been an advocate for making more list changes than we typically do. How many list changes do you think we need to make this time?

We've had a tendency to hang onto some marginal players for too long. In most instances that hasn't worked out well for us.
How hard I think we should cut into the list would depend on why we think the sharp drop in form from one year to the next has occurred:
1) Is because of a genuine hangover and we that we are very likely to bounce straight back
2) Is it because a few players just don't have it in them now to give 100% again
3) Are a few out of sort players dragging down the focus of others in the group
4) Have the other clubs worked us out and we can reinvent again in 2018
5) Where will our improvement come from if we just tinker around the edges

At the moment, I think 7 from the primary list would be a reasonable starting point. That might jump up a fraction but it shouldn't just be 5 changes.

The worrying sign is the small number of players that have improved since last year and that our skill level, particularly by foot, and appears to have gone backwards and our intensity level just isn't quite there.

[GVGjr]

Your pre season assertions have been proven correct but it is incredible to think that not a single player out of 44 on the list has made significant incremental improvement year on year. And worse, a large number of them have regressed sharply from their 2016 form. That is something the match committee would not have seen coming at all considering the youth of our list and clear capacity for improvement within (that hasn't materialised at all for whatever reason).

All year long many people have been making excuses for the players and our performance because of last years heroics. I get the reason for confidence but we went above and beyond reality and considered ourselves some sort of walk up start to the finals based on last year form and it's that sort of hubris that has let us down.

We let some depth players go and didn't replace them and we retained some marginal talent. We took risks on players with a history of injuries and we didn't address the gaps within our list. We didn't have a stronger list at the start of 2017 than what we had at the end of 2016. How much improvement in the younger group did we factor in? We were always going to be targeted by the other clubs and we don't appear to have the skill level to go with them.

I accept that we didn't see the sharp decline in our veteran players as a genuine reason but some of the other list decisions didn't make sense then and are hard to defend now.

The match committee is another discussion worth having.

[always right]

I'd like to think that we can turn around our attitude next year. It appears we just expected everything to fall into place this year.

Three key areas to address IMO;
1. Injection of some pace which will become even more important if we lose JJ. This includes finding a quick small forward.
2. Introducing players with kicking skills. Hopefully this will in part be addressed by Webb becoming a regular but we need to put greater emphasis on this in the draft.
3. Structural/tactical changes. Do we develop a run-with player and a better structure for centre clearances? This might actually translate into changes to our assistant coaches group.

[Twodogs]

I cant agree with this, Wallis and Redpath were at best mid season players and there had to be a question mark on Murphy plus losing Hamling and Minson was always likely to test our depth in key position. Collins was always going to need two years at Footscray.
We took risks with the depth of the list and I think it's been a contributor to our current form.

The form displayed by so many players however, has been disappointing and we just haven't hit our straps. Pockets of our footy looks good and a some of it looks bad. We have also had no real answer from the coaching box but I also think we haven't had the right options to play.

Correct. We took some chances, maybe even gambles, and they didn't come off.

[bornadog]

We've had a tendency to hang onto some marginal players for too long.

Name names? ( only on current list, forget the past).

When I put up the thread about Murphy, Boyd and Morris, not one poster agreed. To me they are the first to go at the end of the year.

How deep do you want to cut into the list, 5?, 10? more? Last year we had 5 new players come in (excl Rookies)

Answering the OP

I want JMAC to go and get Lever and Kelly. We need a pacey outside mid, that can run away from the packs and kick the ball well.

We have too many of the same type of players in our midfield.

[GVGjr]

Name names? ( only on current list, forget the past).

How deep do you want to cut into the list, 5?, 10? more? [/B]Last year we had 5 new players come in (excl Rookies)



The question I was asked contained a comment that I was always advocating for deeper cuts to the list therefore it was referencing the past. I would have thought Prudden, Honeychurch and Roarke Smith would have been regarded as fortunate to survive especially with known long term injuries to Wallis and Redpath. A couple of spots could have easily put some depth back into the list.
We went into the season light on for experienced players and with a few injuries and some drop in form we've struggled to play good football for enough time in our games.

[bornadog]

The question I was asked contained a comment that I was always advocating for deeper cuts to the list therefore it was referencing the past. I would have thought Prudden, Honeychurch and Roarke Smith would have been regarded as fortunate to survive especially with known long term injuries to Wallis and Redpath. A couple of spots could have easily put some depth back into the list.
We went into the season light on for experienced players and with a few injuries and some drop in form we've struggled to play good football for enough time in our games.

Only Honeychurch off the main list, which means one more player - that is hardly cutting deeper.

Any way - how many would you advocate for this year - forgetting the Rookie list at this stage.

For me I have the three 35 year olds, Hamilton, Honeychurch, and possibly Webb - which makes it 6. I think JJ will stay, and we may look at trading out another player depending on JMAC and who he chases.

[GVGjr]

Only Honeychurch off the main list, which means one more player - that is hardly cutting deeper.


Prudden was on the main list wasn't he? and spots on the rookie list have served us well over the years



Any way - how many would you advocate for this year - forgetting the Rookie list at this stage.



I've already answered this earlier today on the post you quoted and removed most of it.

[bornadog]

Prudden was on the main list wasn't he? and spots on the rookie list have served us well over the years



I've already answered this earlier today on the post you quoted and removed most of it.

Yes Prudden, I forgot about him, so we already made 6 changes coming into this year - that was a fair amount, with Honeychurch the lucky one.

Sorry missed that, so 7. I have 6 at the moment, and I am unsure on Crameri and Redpath.

[always right]

Only Honeychurch off the main list, which means one more player - that is hardly cutting deeper.

Any way - how many would you advocate for this year - forgetting the Rookie list at this stage.

For me I have the three 35 year olds, Hamilton, Honeychurch, and possibly Webb - which makes it 6. I think JJ will stay, and we may look at trading out another player depending on JMAC and who he chases.

Why Webb.....one of the young players who can actually kick? Surely he replaces Boyd or Murphy.

[bornadog]

Why Webb.....one of the young players who can actually kick? Surely he replaces Boyd or Murphy.

He has played 17 games in three years, may be he isn't good enough? I am just throwing up names. Who would you look at?

[dadsgirl16]

Heard on radio this morning that JMac met with Mr and Mrs Lever last night

[bornadog]

Heard on radio this morning that JMac met with Mr and Mrs Lever last night

Excellent

[Remi Moses]

Exxxxxcellent !

[bulldogtragic]

Heard on radio this morning that JMac met with Mr and Mrs Lever last night

I hope it's true. I hope it's final sign off and not a tyre kicking exercise.

[always right]

He has played 17 games in three years, may be he isn't good enough? I am just throwing up names. Who would you look at?
Morris, Murphy, Boyd, Honeychurch, Clay Smith, Crameri, Prudden.

[bornadog]

Morris, Murphy, Boyd, Honeychurch, Clay Smith, Crameri, Prudden.


Hamilton?

Prudden is on the Rookie list. I forgot about Smith, has not looked like it this year, just so slow.

[Sedat]

The question I was asked contained a comment that I was always advocating for deeper cuts to the list therefore it was referencing the past. I would have thought Prudden, Honeychurch and Roarke Smith would have been regarded as fortunate to survive especially with known long term injuries to Wallis and Redpath. A couple of spots could have easily put some depth back into the list.
We went into the season light on for experienced players and with a few injuries and some drop in form we've struggled to play good football for enough time in our games.
Roarke Smith absolutely deserved another year as a rookie based on rate of improvement and scope for continued improvement - unfortunately we couldn't foresee another knee reco in the NAB Challenge.

Prudden is an interesting one - we did the right thing by a fringe player to rookie him while he was halfway through recovering from a knee reco. I think that was definitely the right play as it shows the playing group and also prospective players from other clubs that we care about all of our players.

Honey was very lucky but I can understand keeping him after we lost 22-30 players like Hrovat and Stevens. Hamilton was extremely fortunate to get another year.

We brought in Cloke who is ready-made and was tracking perfectly well until Ziebell's cheap shot fractured his sternum and ribs - he hasn't been the same since. Crameri was unforeseen, and based on his excellent 2014/15 seasons with us would have been expected to be a valuable senior player for us this year - again circumstance has conspired against us.

Murph deserved another year as did Morris. Boyd was a touch and go call but off the back of an AA season he really deserved another year based on form.

You're probably right but we have also been very unlucky with a number of issues within the playing group - I think hubris is too strong a word.

[kruder]

Only Honeychurch off the main list, which means one more player - that is hardly cutting deeper.

Any way - how many would you advocate for this year - forgetting the Rookie list at this stage.

For me I have the three 35 year olds, Hamilton, Honeychurch, and possibly Webb - which makes it 6. I think JJ will stay, and we may look at trading out another player depending on JMAC and who he chases.

I reckon you can add Cloke. In an under performing team I cant see how he is gonna add any value, I'd happily pay him out and move on.

[GVGjr]

You're probably right but we have also been very unlucky with a number of issues within the playing group - I think hubris is too strong a word.

It probably is but there was a fair bit of it from a fans perspective with some of the comments I've heard and read indicated we just had to show up in September and turn it on again.

[Remi Moses]

I think the fans being cocky has no bearing on the club to be honest .
I mean we all thought we'd get bundled out the first week .

[AndrewP6]

I think the fans being cocky has no bearing on the club to be honest .
I mean we all thought we'd get bundled out the first week .

Spot on. If the same attitude exists internally, then there is a problem.

[Twodogs]

I think the fans being cocky has no bearing on the club to be honest .
I mean we all thought we'd get bundled out the first week .

I didn't.

[Mantis]

Here is something a little different, how about we target a new list manager?

Not a lot to be excited about with our recent dealings.

[Happy Days]

Here is something a little different, how about we target a new list manager?

Not a lot to be excited about with our recent dealings.

We won a premiership last year with the list he built. I'm good with him staying on.

[jeemak]

Here is something a little different, how about we target a new list manager?

Not a lot to be excited about with our recent dealings.

Funnily, I was thinking the same thing these past few days. Is McCartney the right person for the job, does he have the appropriate level of influence at the club to stop our coach from bringing in the likes of Suckling and Cloke, or other players the coach might fancy?

I'm actually OK with the recruitment of these guys as decisions made at the time, but, I do think it's an important question to ask and believe that this period in time from a list management perspective is about as critical as it can get.

There's a list of players I'd be willing to entertain trades for to freshen up our list, I'm not going to post it as yet as it's so long it almost seems unreasonable, and I have to get my head around how realistic it is before I do.

[bornadog]

Here is something a little different, how about we target a new list manager?

Not a lot to be excited about with our recent dealings.

Not sure what you are talking about?

[Mantis]

We won a premiership last year with the list he built. I'm good with him staying on.

How much credit do you give him or the recruiting team, which I guess he influences them anyway?

There hasn't been many decisions since we won the flag that has improved the list moving forward:

* Let Hrovat, Hamling & Stevens go for little... If nothing else they all offered depth and weren't replaced. Hamling was more than depth.
* Re-signed Hamilton who is yet to play.
* Re-signed Prudden who is always injured.
* Bungled the JJ deal... Had to call in re-inforcements (C.Grant)
* Re-signed Picken, Roberts & Smith perhaps earlier than we needed to and all are really battling now.

Not saying he needs to go, but these decisions need to be questioned.

[Happy Days]

How much credit do you give him or the recruiting team, which I guess he influences them anyway?

There hasn't been many decisions since we won the flag that has improved the list moving forward:

* Let Hrovat, Hamling & Stevens go for little... If nothing else they all offered depth and weren't replaced. Hamling was more than depth.
* Re-signed Hamilton who is yet to play.
* Re-signed Prudden who is always injured.
* Bungled the JJ deal... Had to call in re-inforcements (C.Grant)
* Re-signed Picken, Roberts & Smith perhaps earlier than we needed to and all are really battling now.

Not saying he needs to go, but these decisions need to be questioned.

The only really impactful error to me is letting Hamling go, but at the time he would have theoretically been re-signed he was in the twos and looking like a surefire delisting. He was kind of collateral damage in our pursuit of Hurley anyway, who we were apparently all but over the line with. Still, it's clearly a bad error.

I'd contend that JJ's manager has bungled the deal more than anyone from inside the club. And given his form line maybe it was prudent to not offer him overs?

Guys like Smith, Prudden and Picken are as much re-signings for player welfare and list harmony than the actual ability of the individuals themselves. I've stated before that as much as we want to "treat it like a business" and take the human element away from the game, the simple fact is it can't be done. To chop a guy like Clay Smith, who has overcome such significant injury and personal issue to return to a somewhat competent level is the sort of stuff that really demoralises a group. Doing the right thing by a guy like Prudden makes the club a happier place and is probably of far greater value than the $80k or so it's costing to keep him on the rookie list. How much value do these small scale deals detract from the bottom line anyway? Same goes for Hamilton; he was probably kept around because, unlike Stevens and Hrovat, he didn't walk.

There's a lot of good in his work too. The re-signing of Adams only ~6 months after he (maybe) walked out was particularly inspiring. I mentioned elsewhere that I think our problems are largely defensively based, and if we get a guy like Lever, paired up with a fully fit Adams, all of a sudden we look in a lot better shape, and are a lot freer stylistically to play better football.

[jazzadogs]

It's also worth looking at what the club DID try to do at the end of last year.

We DID chase Hurley very hard - given his form this year, it is safe to say that he would have been making a significant difference to how we are playing.

We DID look at Long and Hannan in the draft, but were pipped on both of them - small creative forwards, which I'm sure has been identified as an area of concern.

We DID try to get as much value as we could for Stevens/Hrovat/Hamling, but the trade economy last year was ridiculous. Unless you were an out and out star (Mitchell, O'Meara), you were getting moved around for peanuts. Jarryd Lyons is at a similar level to Hrovat and Stevens, and was traded for a third rounder. There's only so much you can do.

I don't think it can be said that the club sat on it's hands or expected success. We tried things, we expected some natural progression or at least maintenance, and improvement to come from players who missed finals.

As for this year, Lever is obviously target number one in JMac's eyes and I think we all know of his quality. There is no way we're getting Kelly as well, but you don't get quick skillful midfielders for free so I'm not sure what our other options would be.

It would be fantastic if JJ developed a midfield component to his game - his speed would be very helpful in there. But given the way he has not been able to handle a tag at half-back, I think the chances are slim.

[jeemak]

Pending Port Adelaide's progress through the finals and their subsequent progress expectation the next year onward, I'd be putting a huge money and draft pick offer to Robbie Gray, providing our poor performances continue and we have a draft pick within the top 10-12 to offer.

He's 29 and is an absolute gun. If Port fail to impress in September, he might feel it's time to come home, and play two or three years out with a club that might win a flag and has a recent history of doing so.

[Twodogs]

We should gave walked away from the Hamling deal. Its all well and good providing the players with what they want, but what about the club? The club that scraped him up and gave him another chance? That provided him with a premiership? We should have held out for a better deal or let him walk to the PSD. Messages to the playing group work both ways

[bornadog]

How much credit do you give him or the recruiting team, which I guess he influences them anyway?

There hasn't been many decisions since we won the flag that has improved the list moving forward:

* Let Hrovat, Hamling & Stevens go for little... If nothing else they all offered depth and weren't replaced. Hamling was more than depth.
* Re-signed Hamilton who is yet to play.
* Re-signed Prudden who is always injured.
* Bungled the JJ deal... Had to call in re-inforcements (C.Grant)
* Re-signed Picken, Roberts & Smith perhaps earlier than we needed to and all are really battling now.

Not saying he needs to go, but these decisions need to be questioned.

* Let Hrovat, Hamling & Stevens go for little... If nothing else they all offered depth and weren't replaced. Hamling was more than depth. Market dictates what you get, and Hrovat & Stevens barely best 22, Hamling -maybe could have got more, who knows.

* Re-signed Hamilton who is yet to play. - Is that JMacs decision or football department want him

* Re-signed Prudden who is always injured. Signed as a Rookie not a senior player - again Football department decision.

* Bungled the JJ deal... Had to call in re-inforcements (C.Grant) Bungled mmmmmm - 5 year deal, the Grant report was that really correct?

* Re-signed Picken, Roberts & Smith perhaps earlier than we needed to and all are really battling now. Deserved it, player of the finals - got us a premiership

I think you are being very harsh

[Bulldog4life]

Heard on radio this morning that JMac met with Mr and Mrs Lever last night

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/expert-opinion/kane-cornes/doing-a-deal-to-keep-afl-star-defender-jake-lever-is-not-negotiable-for-adelaide-crows-says-kane-cornes/news-story/cc7c60de92715d228dc36a4d9a1daa2c


ADELAIDE cannot afford to lose out-of-contract defender Jake Lever.

The Crows need to up their offer to ensure they hold on to the 21-year-old star.

Reports last week out of Melbourne suggested the Western Bulldogs were the latest team to table an offer to Lever, with Channel 7 reporting it was a five-year $4 million deal.

In the Dogs’ favour is the connection Lever’s family has with Bulldogs.

Club officials were spotted socialising with the Lever camp in a hotel foyer after the game last Friday night.

The Western Bulldogs join Hawthorn and Collingwood in trying to lure home the Victorian native.

Steven May’s two-year contract extension to remain at the Gold Coast is the latest domino to fall in increasing Lever’s market value as the best out-of-contract key defender.

Lever has surpassed two-time All-Australian Daniel Talia as the Crows most important defender.

There is no disputing the value in what Talia does playing the lockdown role on the opposition’s best forward, where he is rarely beaten.


However Lever’s unique ability in the air, courage dropping back into the hole and composure with ball in hand is already elite.

On Friday night the Bulldogs got a first-hand of reminder of his talent as he repeatedly repelled their attacking forays, gathering 22 disposals and 11 marks in what was close to a best-on-ground performance.

And his lookalike, Jake Kelly, is one of the most improved players in the competition undoubtedly due to time spent playing alongside Lever and Talia in the Crows’ back six.

Calder Cannons product Lever, who hails from Romsey in Victoria, is already viewed as a leader at the Crows, with the late Phil Walsh identifying him a future captain after admiring his toughness in his first few weeks at the club.

Lever had repeatedly suggested in his fortnightly FIVEaa radio spot that a new deal would be imminent once the new player’s pay deal was done.

However, on Tuesday a fortnight ago, he spoke about the fact he hadn’t started serious contract negotiations with the Crows, but added: “You do speak about it … but probably not in the depth it has to be. In the end it’s a life decision — a really important decision.”

Those comments pricked up the ears of Adelaide fans and the massive offers from rival clubs have many from across the border feeling he is a chance to pried away from the Crows.

More often than not when a player waits until the end of the year to find a new deal they depart their current club.


The Crows remain extremely confident Lever will recommit, as they believe the environment at Adelaide gives him the best opportunity to become the finest player he can and to enjoy future team success.

Adelaide will have to manipulate its salary cap, which is already under strain due to lucrative deals recently signed by Josh Jenkins, Eddie Betts, Daniel Talia and Tom Lynch.

Taylor Walker also signed a fresh contract extension in which he would be well remunerated and Rory Sloane is expected to follow suit in the not-too-distant future.

The Crows will offer Lever a fair and reasonable deal, but he may have to sacrifice some of what he could get in Victoria to stay in Adelaide.

Entering Round 17 this weekend we appear no closer to a deal being reached with Adelaide for the young star.

One factor working in the Crows’ favour is that Lever in his third season on an AFL list is not a free-agent. However clever agents like his, Ned Guy, can manipulate their players to the club of their choice via the pre-season draft.

The Crows couldn’t stop Patrick Dangerfield returning home to Geelong after eight seasons of great service, but would be less forgiving if a deal for another young star can’t be struck.

Jack Gunston left Adelaide after just two seasons and went on to become a three-time premiership star at Hawthorn.

It’s a nervous time for Adelaide as it waits on the signatures of Mitch McGovern and Jake Lever, but needs to do whatever it takes to secure the later, a star on the rise and a likely future captain.

[bornadog]

What connection does Lever have with us?

[Bulldog4life]

What connection does Lever have with us?

Not sure. Wondering myself.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Not sure. Wondering myself.

Not sure but this was from an article on the Michael Talia investigation. McCartney may just know Jake Lever's dad:

"Bulldogs list manager Jason McCartney told the club about a conversation he had that morning (Wednesday, September 16) with the father of Crows defender Jake Lever."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/how-the-talia-investigation-made-the-western-bulldogs-lose-faith-in-the-afl/news-story/9f2bc173c9401d234a3a639d6a6c5e01

[bulldogtragic]

A guess based on geography. Lever is from Romsey. Redders is from somewhere like next door Kyneton. It's a small world out there. You'd think they'd know each other. If true, it explains why after Redders missed his set shot late in the game, he was joking and laughing with Lever.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Chris Grant confirmed we're into Lever this morning on SEN

[bulldogtragic]

Chris Grant confirmed we're into Lever this morning on SEN

Giddy up. Did he mention anyone else, or are we putting all our eggs in one basket again?

[Axe Man]

Chris Grant confirmed we're into Lever this morning on SEN

IN-DEMAND CROW ON OUR RADAR: DOGS FOOTBALL CHIEF (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/07/10/in-demand-crow-on-our-radar-says-dogs-football-chief/)

Western Bulldogs director of football Chris Grant says that the club is interested in recruiting young Adelaide defender Jake Lever should he desire a new home.

The Victorian native has had a breakout season from the Crows in 2017, but is yet to commit to his current club beyond the end of this year.

This has led to a host of Victorian sides chasing the 21-year-old key defender's signature, and Grant has confirmed that the Dogs will be one of those clubs should he want to move away from Adelaide.

“He’s certainly a terrific young player, and being a Melbourne-based player… there is going to be an opportunity for him to come home if he did want to do that,” he told SEN Breakfast.

“He’d certainly be the type of player that we would be interested in talking to.”

Grant also discussed the re-signing of rebounding defender Jason Johannisen on a new five-year deal.

The new contract for the 24-year-old, reportedly worth over $3.25 million, sees him stay at the club until the end of the 2022 season, warding off interest from rival clubs.

The Dogs footy boss called it great news to finally have the 2016 Norm Smith medallist put pen to paper after the protracted contract talks between the player and the club.

“It certainly helps us with our playing group, knowing our list over the next five to six years, which is tremendous,” said Grant.

“In incidents like this you’ve just got to give players and their managers enough time to come to a decision that they’re really comfortable with. You have to remember that when player is contracted until the end of a particular year, they are well within their rights to run it until the end of that year if they like.

“As a club you always prefer to do it a bit earlier, but JJ took the time that he needed and we were happy to give him that were are really pleased that he’s come to that decision.

“We’ve had really good discussion with him probably over the last five months and really probably over the last four weeks we’ve been pretty sure we’re are going to get a deal done.”

[Happy Days]

Giddy up. Did he mention anyone else, or are we putting all our eggs in one basket again?

I'm okay with it. The second person I would be tabling an offer to at the moment is legit Liam Jones so I don't mind going so hard.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I'm okay with it. The second person I would be tabling an offer to at the moment is legit Liam Jones so I don't mind going so hard.

All but signed up with Carlton.

I'm guessing with our offer to Lever we aren't in the race at all for Josh Kelly. Would love to get him. Hopefully we land our man this year. Would hate to miss out again a la Hurley.

[bulldogtragic]

All but signed up with Carlton.

I'm guessing with our offer to Lever we aren't in the race at all for Josh Kelly. Would love to get him. Hopefully we land our man this year. Would hate to miss out again a la Hurley.

Yep, signing JJ means we'd have to break off another contracted player to get enough credit to trade for Kelly. I don't see that happening. So I think we look at free agency for a mature mid, and Rockliff is hopefully willing to leave for a good contract and Brisbane potentially get pick 2.

[always right]

We're not the only club chasing Lever and we probably haven't done ourselves any favours the way we've played this year. Surely Lever goes to the club willing to pay him top dollar.....and offering the prospect of success in the coming years. Personally I think he'll stay at the crows....on increased coin.

I don't get the attraction of Rockliff. Just adds to our one pace midfield.

[bulldogtragic]

We're not the only club chasing Lever and we probably haven't done ourselves any favours the way we've played this year. Surely Lever goes to the club willing to pay him top dollar.....and offering the prospect of success in the coming years. Personally I think he'll stay at the crows....on increased coin.

I don't get the attraction of Rockliff. Just adds to our one pace midfield.

I wouldn't say he's slow. He's 27 and a mature body to put around the ball. He's numbers this year across the entire competition are huge, from top 4 to top 20 in his kicking, his inside 50's, tackling, clearances, contested possessions etc. Hes getting about 28 touches a game with a disposal efficiency better than Dustin Martins too.

So for me, he's a ready made midfielder who wins the hard contested ball, clears it out like a machine, puts tackling pressure on, kicks more than others which includes a lot more inside 50's. Mark's it about 6 times a game and has rebounds out of defensive 50. A bloke who has good offense and good defence, has work ethic running both ways, and works on pressure wherever he is on the ground takes us closer towards what we had last year. A bloke who knows how to deliver it a lot into the forward 50 many times a game is also a good thing.

[The Pie Man]

Would any South Australians on our list come up in potential conversations should Lever want to join us?

You'd think Caleb Daniel's happy/untouchable....or maybe not (untouchable that is) Something in our midfield has to change, though he'd be one of the ones I'd want to keep.

Bailey Williams? Again, I'm keen to keep, though HBF could be covered ok ....would he be any value to the Crows?

[bulldogtragic]

Would any South Australians on our list come up in potential conversations should Lever want to join us?

You'd think Caleb Daniel's happy/untouchable....or maybe not (untouchable that is) Something in our midfield has to change, though he'd be one of the ones I'd want to keep.

Bailey Williams? Again, I'm keen to keep, though HBF could be covered ok ....would he be any value to the Crows?

Declan Hamilton is an out and out gun. Maybe we can add him in.

[Sedat]

Adelaide have major salary cap pressure because they had to give Joe the Goose Jenkins a ridiculously large and long term contract last year, and they already have Talia, Betts, Walker and others on large contracts (fair enough too). Lever is very gettable if he wants to come home.