2017: How did we fall this far?

[Webby]

From sitting in pubs, bathing in glory in October, the future seemed to be ours. So how did we get here? Interesting discussion point. Here is my initial take:

Hamling repaid the faith and became not far off an A grade AFL defender in the back half of last year. Something we badly missed.... But his dad was sick, so we released him back to Perth.

Cloke was pretty much always a mistake. He was signed as cover for the recovering Redpath, but broke his ribs early in the season. That spot would have been better served with a kid.

The homegrown Mitch Hannan was nicked by Melbourne at the draft two picks before we'd have surely taken him. That was gut wrenching as Hannan was our kid and a great opportunity to demonstrate the progression path from VFL to AFL within our four walls.

Casting the mind back to last summer, the prospect of Crameri coming back into the lineup (Stringer had clearly missed him in '16) to join Jake and Dickson (who kicked 82 goals 40 behinds between them in 2016) was mouth watering...

Alas, Crameri came back looking broken (turns out he was!) and Dickson is a shadow of himself.

The trio have managed just 30 goals 26 between them this year.

Hamling's loss was tough to take, but at least we had Marcus Adams to come back in... and surely he wouldn't suffer another season ending injury as the one he had in 2016..... except he did..! Leaving us badly undermanned down back.

Goalkicking: There is only one club in the AFL who have scored more behinds than goals this year. It's us, and its us by a country mile!!!

We've kicked 168 goals 201 behinds this year. That is deplorable. Particularly for a team that plays indoors! We've badly missed Dickson's accuracy, but surely this area of the game needs to be looked at - and provides significant upside.

WE ARE HISTORICALLY AWFUL AT GOAL-KICKING, BUT IT'S FIXABLE.

The Rocky 3 factor:
A young team breaking a drought as big as the WBFC one was always going to affect heads. Call it psychology, or simply head size. Not a great scenario for a side whose strength is work rate, team pressure, sacrifice etc.

For those who haven't seen the film, this clip may explain it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_sRCHrSaVXQ

Basically, we are Rocky and Clubber Lang (Mr T) is the other 17 clubs.

Whilst several young sides were busting their guts in pre-season, looking for any edge they could get to chase the dream, you just got the feeling that our guys might have backed off one or two percent.. After such an emotional high, it's difficult to really drive yourself on that exercise bike... As wanky as it sounds, the "eye of the tiger" edge that a group like ours so heavily relies on, is hard to tap into..

Enter Libba:
In many ways the heart and soul of the club... However the knock here is pretty obvious. It's also a more obvious indicator of what I think lies beneath the surface for many of our players. Libba's post season partying was 'epic.' It was joyous to watch - at the time... however it's not so endearing now... Libba is a shadow of himself. He's such a hard, clever player who is capable of being elite... however he's struggled to justify selection in the side, for goodness sake.

He should be in Brownlow conversations - not selection table conversations..

Soft list management approach:
Having watched extensive VFL games over the past three and a half years, I really like Mitch Honeychurch's pluck. He'll be a very good captain-coach in the country leagues. However he's simply not AFL calibre and should have been delisted last year.

Cloke, as I've said earlier, was a mistake. We'll hold onto him due to his mental state, but if we were ruthless, we'd pay him out and free up his spot.

Koby Stevens, although limited, is missed. As mentioned earlier, so is Hamling.

On the Jong vs Hrovat front, we probably kept the wrong player. Hrovat has a touch of guile and class that is handy. I admire Jing greatly, but if I'm honest, he's clearly never going to spark us with too much clever ball use. Hrovat will do so throughout his career.

Declan Hamilton has clearly been persevered with for too long. Webb not having stepped up into either Murphy's or Moyd's vacated positions is a concern.

Anyway, as with Rocky (and Hawthorn '09), hopefully the wounded pride will do us some good. We can go back to the well to top up, perhaps trade some players, whilst on the bright side, we've had a few players deflate their market value in recent months. So our cap pressure seems a fair bit reduced.

English looks a great prospect, whilst Dale and McLean have come along strongly. Williams also looks to be developing well.

We will land a top 10 draft pick and will hopefully use it to land some class. As above, our cap space should allow us to go FA chasing. I hope we can deal well.

This may be, as Paul Keating once said, "The recession we had to have." A side with our DNA's essential ingredient is passion and hunger. Not only on field, but in preparation. We're not a particularly structural side, so there is no such thing as coasting on three cylinders. We're either on or we're not.

We can turn it around, and I believe wounded pride will be the spark... but unfortunately, we'll have to wait until 2018.

I do not think it's the end of the world. This core group's got plenty of finals footy ahead of it. We just need to keep our heads and restock somewhat. Interested to know others' thoughts?

[AndrewP6]

Don't consider Cloke a mistake, no one was to know he'd be injured (ribs) then be out dealing with mental health issues. As you say, the prospect of Cloke, Crameri, Stringer, Boyd etc up forward was exciting. Not sure I agree with the Murphy/Boyd 'vacated positions' either - They're not vacated yet.

I am unhappy with our skills /goalkicking being an issue, as it has been for years now.

[Webby]

Not sure I agree with the Murphy/Boyd 'vacated positions' either - They're not vacated yet. .

What I mean by "vacated positions" is the 13 games that M Boyd and Murphy have missed between them this season. One would have hoped that Webb might've grasped the opportunity that these vacated positions have presented. Particularly with an eye to the next 5-10 years.

[Doc26]

Losing Hamling has proven to be a very costly loss.

Actually plays a lot in the Lever mould with his smart reading of the play in defence.

Fremantle picked up a steel at minimal cost which I'm quite peeved about.

I hope we did everything early in the 2016 season to retain his services otherwise we need to take a look at our list management process especially now that we're looking at tabling a huge offer to lever Lever.

Instead of focussing 2017 (or 2016 with Hurley for that matter) on loading up on a Hamling like replacement we could've targeted another key need being a Josh Kelly / Dusty type elite midfielder.

We need to be very smart in the next trade period and pick up our own Hamling type again.

[Webby]

Hamling hurt me because he was "my guy" amongst my group of Dogs supporting mates. I'd really talked him up from what I'd seen at VFL level.

I remember the one mate I'd debated his worth with saying that we could shut the door on Hamling as we'd "got him for nothing and gotten a second round pick for him on the way out." I couldn't help thinking that was a loss for us. Way unders..

The other thing was, it was clear he really didn't want to leave. I was hoping for a compromise - perhaps additional time off to visit the old man or something. Anyway, Hamling out plus the Hurley miss definitely knocked us onto the back foot in post season trading.

Although I can't remember Hawthorn doing anything exceptional in '08 post their flag, but '09 was a big exception. Hopefully we follow suit as we'll have some clear deficiencies to address. I think we'll still be viewed as a destination club and I reckon we actually drafted very well last November.

[Flamethrower]

We got too far ahead of ourselves - the club was talking about "bark to bark" before the season even started as if it was a fait accompli.

[ledge]

We got too far ahead of ourselves - the club was talking about "bark to bark" before the season even started as if it was a fait accompli.

The club ? I think you mean the media and supporters.

[Webby]

Another thing that's dropped away is our speed of ball movement.

Most noticeable for me is Luke Dahlhaus. He's become a very stop-start player, which was never the case last year - or ever for that matter.

I think speed of ball movement is a snowballing thing borne out of momentum and confidence. We need a regroup and a recharge. One that bruised pride, reflection, reloading and refreshing can provide.

[Twodogs]

Another thing that's dropped away is our speed of ball movement.

Most noticeable for me is Luke Dahlhaus. He's become a very stop-start player, which was never the case last year - or ever for that matter.

I think speed of ball movement is a snowballing thing borne out of momentum and confidence. We need a regroup and a recharge. One that bruised pride, reflection, reloading and refreshing can provide.

Luke took a mark last night and his first instinct was to keep the ball moving but instead he stopped and turned his back on play and took a deep breath. It was like someone has told him he should hold up play more.



This may be, as Paul Keating once said, "The recession we had to have"

That remark didn't go real well for Keating I seem to recall.

[Webby]

That remark didn't go real well for Keating I seem to recall.

Actually on the contrary. Although an apparently stupid and insulting thing to say at the time (in 1990 as Treasurer), he went on to successfully seize the Prime Ministership from Hawke, won the unwinable election in 1993 (or was it '94?) and has then spruiked the "unmatched 27 years of prosperity" ever since "the recession we had to have."

I'm hopeful that we can get some genuine support for Stringer up forward (via one or two of T Boyd, Crameri or Dickson overcoming their ailments), Libba can have a huge pre-season (avoiding Vietnam) and recapture his fantastic best (& thus forming a brilliant midfield partnership with Bont), Dale, Daniel and McLean continue to develop, English comes on, Williams develops, Adams returns sound, Cordy continues to fulfil potential, JJ adds a hard edge, Taylor comes on, Dahl gets his mojo back, and we manage one or two trades and free agents to add to solid draft picks.

[Twodogs]

Actually on the contrary. Although an apparently stupid and insulting thing to say at the time (in 1990 as Treasurer), he went on to successfully seize the Prime Ministership from Hawke, won the unwinable election in 1993 (or was it '94?) and has then spruiked the "unmatched 27 years of prosperity" ever since "the recession we had to have."

I'm hopeful that we can get some genuine support for Stringer up forward (via one or two of T Boyd, Crameri or Dickson overcoming their ailments), Libba can have a huge pre-season (avoiding Vietnam) and recapture his fantastic best (& thus forming a brilliant midfield partnership with Bont), Dale, Daniel and McLean continue to develop, English comes on, Williams develops, Adams returns sound, Cordy continues to fulfil potential, JJ adds a hard edge, Taylor comes on, Dahl gets his mojo back, and we manage one or two trades and free agents to add to solid draft picks.

'93 was the True Believers. Actually as I wrote that I thought to myself "nah, Keating was a smart bastard. That was the start of his rise to the top job."

Geez Hamling has turned out to be a huge loss. I thiught if he'd played for us instead of them when we played Freo earlier in the year we would have won. Freo made out like bandits snaring a premiership fullback for a late second round draft, at the time even I thought we had settled for too little in return.

like you said earlier I wish we had come up with a viable plan to keep him with us.

[Topdog]

I hope we did everything early in the 2016 season to retain his services otherwise we need to take a look at our list management process especially now that we're looking at tabling a huge offer to lever Lever.


When he was a spud and looked like being delisted?

[GVGjr]

We shouldn't have fallen so far, we won both the AFL and VFL competitions but in this competition if you are standing still you are going backwards and given the changes we made we needed our full list to be switched on and I don't think we were. Clearly we weren't even standing still and we must have taken a step or two backwards.

Sadly I now concede the hunger does not appear to be there.

Also sadly is we will probably need to set-up the well worn end of season review to work out why this has occurred.

The coaches box, the fitness and conditioning team, the match committee decisions along with an extensive player review needs to be conducted. Are we spending enough on the footy department and do we have the right personnel to take the club forward needs to be considered.

Most importantly we need to stare each of the players in the eye and be confident they want to be part of another flag? If some of them don't have that hunger then we need to facilitate their departure.

[ratsmac]

Resting on your laurels. I've heard this cliche belted out since under 14's. Well we epitomize the very meaning of the cliche. The 2016 premiership is just that, it's the 2016 premiership. That holds as much significance as the 2007 Geelong premiership or 2004 Port premiership. They are all just a part of history. 2017 is a different season and I feel the players just expected wins to happen (so did I). Well we have had a rude awakening and I'm afraid to say but I think that the horse has already bolted.

2017 has been a train wreck and we may as well get games into the kids and if players needs ops, do it now. Unfortunately it was no fairytale for Bob, it has been more like a cruel nightmare but when when he wakes up its actually reality.

Some puzzling assistant coaching shuffling after winning the premiership must be assessed as well. If it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind. We look rudderless at the moment.

As a supporter though, I am forever thankful for the 2016 premiership and it's saved me from a lot of ribbing this year after some disappointing losses.

[always right]

Good summary but disagree with the comment on Webb not having stepped up to take Moyd or Murphy's place. He's shown great form with Footscray as a midfielder and that typically where he's been played when elevated to the seniors. If he's going to take Moyd or Murphy's position it would help if he was played at half back when given his chance. Hopefully that happens in the remainder of the season.

I also feel we've slipped behind other clubs in our game plan. An example is the return to tagging by so many teams which had proven so successful. For some reason we refuse to change our approach and it's been to our detriment. Our fast ball movement seems to have disappeared which has shown up our lack of leg speed, not helped by the poor form of our best line breaker JJ.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Good summary but disagree with the comment on Webb not having stepped up to take Moyd or Murphy's place. He's shown great form with Footscray as a midfielder and that typically where he's been played when elevated to the seniors. If he's going to take Moyd or Murphy's position it would help if he was played at half back when given his chance. Hopefully that happens in the remainder of the season.

I also feel we've slipped behind other clubs in our game plan. An example is the return to tagging by so many teams which had proven so successful. For some reason we refuse to change our approach and it's been to our detriment. Our fast ball movement seems to have disappeared which has shown up our lack of leg speed, not helped by the poor form of our best line breaker JJ.
The decision to retain 3 outstanding veterans in Murphy Morris and M Boyd has without question restricted our ability to play both Williams and Webb. The development of Bailey Dale by contrast has come about by more game time. We do lack leg speed but there is limitations on our game plan which brought the ultimate success last year. Physically our manic attack on the ball eventually took its toll with too many injuries to key players. Roughead Morris Murphy Liberatore Picken Dunkley Jong Crameri has seen us play unsettled sides for most of 2017. Players such as M Boyd Tom Boyd Dahlhaus Hunter Biggs and Daniel have all struggled to have the same impact this year. Is it any wonder given the above that Clubs have now reverted to targeting JJ. Very few players have come through unscathed with the few exceptions being Bont Macrae and Cordy. This is a very testing time for our Club to be able to recover its mojo.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

And McLean he has been great this year

[Remi Moses]

I think Biggs and Daniel have lifted after a quiet start , but the others have just gone backwards .
No win situation with Hamling as he wanted to return to Perth and was out of contract .
Pointless holding them to ransom and especially for future dealings with freo . Been a bit stiff with injuries to Dunkley, Crameri and Jong . It was lineball with Jong and Stevens to be honest, and I'm sure Lin's marking and pace worked in his favour .

[GVGjr]

We have to get back to the basics on stop trying to be so inventive with ruckman. I still firmly believe it's one of the reasons why Tom Boyd didn't progress this year. Hopefully in 2018 we have him primarily slotted into a key forward role.

[bulldogtragic]

We have to get back to the basics on stop trying to be so inventive with ruckman. I still firmly believe it's one of the reasons why Tom Boyd didn't progress this year. Hopefully in 2018 we have him primarily slotted into a key forward role.

I was thinking this about today. 17 other clubs would've been wrapped to land him too, but the 17 other clubs would've been far more patient with his development as a KPF to get maximum return. Even playing him in the VFL like Hogan & McCartin did/are. This has been a disaster for Tom and his development this year and if we repeat this BS again next year he will not be the player Dalrymple still maintains (2 months ago he said it) will be a gun KPF.

But it will be a disaster. Roughy is testing thrown back and finding inventive ways to get injured. Campbell should ask for a trade or dominate another VFL year. English could help the equation, but if he's not strong enough or gets injured, then we are back at square one. It's as if JMac is saying these are your rucks, and reiterating it. It's as if Bevo is saying give me different players or I will play no ruckman for large chunks of games. It's as if there's two strong individuals staring each other down. Don't know how it ends.

This hasn't helped this year.
Not tagging key midfielders in close games hasn't helped this year.
Contracts haven't helped this year as Adams signed and is out for the year, Fletch & Picko's form dropped off a cliff after signing, JJs contract talk is a distraction and we still haven't got Dale or Webb signatures yet.
The older trio have played all their good games, and unfortunately we are seeing them decline and that form we carried for a while. Matty Boyd in particular. And on that, he was AA last year, but we pushed him forward into the problems.
Selection had seemed erratic too.
Giving lesser talented teams 30 point leads, to then only 'flick the switch' in the second half hasn't helped. I think it's made matters worse that if there was a hangover or arrogance around, these results ingrained a mentality that 30 minutes of good footy is enough. And it's obviously not.
I'm at a loss as to why we needed to change the role of every single assistant coach after winning the flag, and being worse in every area, I'm even more at a loss as to why?

A part from my tongue in cheek contract reference, these were variables controlled by the club. The things were controlled, we're not handled well. I'm also going to stick up for Trav Cloke. We were doing well enough at the beginning of the year before that sniping prick smashed his ribs. We weren't flying, but we were winning and Trav was kicking goals. He goes out and so does our forward set up. His injury was bad for the team, and we still keep racking up ACL injuries at a rate more than any other club over 4-5 years.

Frankly, I hope Peter Gordon does the Peter Gordon thing and instigate a top to bottom review of 2017 and make the findings and responses to address issues available to members. In the interim, I'd like to see kids with some good form such as Collins, Williams, Webb, English, Young, Lippa get games.

... And trade our pick 8 to get Lever. And whatever to get Kelly, and grab Rockliff.

[mjp]

Isn't it just players not being prepared to do this year what they were prepared to do last year?

Where are the men of mayhem? Nowhere to be found. Vs Melbourne you could tell it was over when we dominated territory but did not look like scoring in q1...the intent was there (for a period) but our organisation behind the ball was so poor that it was obvious everyone (or at least too many) were thinking me not team.

JJ has been horrific. Last year he would have been dropped. Hell, this year he would have been dropped. But there are those contract talks right and the match committee has to be seen to be supportive.

Webb is interesting. Plays mid at VFL - HB at AFL. Why is his lack of success at AFL level a mystery. If he is a hb, then that is where he should be playing at both levels.

M. Boyd being injured / recovering from concussion has hurt us. The calls for retrospective delisting baffle me - he was AA last year wasnt he...and good verging on very good in the finals. As for the OP comments on Hrovat, well, of course we got that wrong. And it has nothing to do with injury...it has everything to do with kicking. Who apart from Murphy can actually kick the ball i50 atm? As for Crameri, well, is anyone surprised? If you stopped doing something today and then tried to do it again on July 9th, 2018 I very much doubt you would be as competent...the Dickson stuff has been disappointing...the Stringer, Dalhaus and Libba stuff has been devastating. But in Libba's case is it really surprising? Hell, the off-season stuff in Thailand (or wherever) was funny but if Lebron James is posting pictures of himself in the gym 2-days after LOSING the NBA finals surely Libba should understand that at some point you need to do the work if you want to be successful.

I don't know. I am as bad as the players and have paid as little attention to this season as any year since 1996...and I am finding it hard to get upset at results like the one vs Adelaide on Friday night. But at the same time, the idea of this group of players creating a legacy/leaving a mark on the competition is something that had a lot of appeal in January...now I have to put on a replay of the prelim vs the Giants to remember the intent we showed at the ball and the way we once got numbers to a contest.

Same old.

[Doc26]

Isn't it just players not being prepared to do this year what they were prepared to do last year?

Where are the men of mayhem? Nowhere to be found. Vs Melbourne you could tell it was over when we dominated territory but did not look like scoring in q1...the intent was there (for a period) but our organisation behind the ball was so poor that it was obvious everyone (or at least too many) were thinking me not team.

JJ has been horrific. Last year he would have been dropped. Hell, this year he would have been dropped. But there are those contract talks right and the match committee has to be seen to be supportive.

Webb is interesting. Plays mid at VFL - HB at AFL. Why is his lack of success at AFL level a mystery. If he is a hb, then that is where he should be playing at both levels.

M. Boyd being injured / recovering from concussion has hurt us. The calls for retrospective delisting baffle me - he was AA last year wasnt he...and good verging on very good in the finals. As for the OP comments on Hrovat, well, of course we got that wrong. And it has nothing to do with injury...it has everything to do with kicking. Who apart from Murphy can actually kick the ball i50 atm? As for Crameri, well, is anyone surprised? If you stopped doing something today and then tried to do it again on July 9th, 2018 I very much doubt you would be as competent...the Dickson stuff has been disappointing...the Stringer, Dalhaus and Libba stuff has been devastating. But in Libba's case is it really surprising? Hell, the off-season stuff in Thailand (or wherever) was funny but if Lebron James is posting pictures of himself in the gym 2-days after LOSING the NBA finals surely Libba should understand that at some point you need to do the work if you want to be successful.

I don't know. I am as bad as the players and have paid as little attention to this season as any year since 1996...and I am finding it hard to get upset at results like the one vs Adelaide on Friday night. But at the same time, the idea of this group of players creating a legacy/leaving a mark on the competition is something that had a lot of appeal in January...now I have to put on a replay of the prelim vs the Giants to remember the intent we showed at the ball and the way we once got numbers to a contest.

Same old.

Good post MJP. I particularly liked your commentary on MBoyd. He took a couple of very heavy hits early in the season and we have suffered for it. Has not been given enough respect in my view.

[SonofScray]

Good post MJP. I particularly liked your commentary on MBoyd. He took a couple of very heavy hits early in the season and we have suffered for it. Has not been given enough respect in my view.

Picken, Boyd and Cloke all got big head knocks early on and have battled a bit afterwards.

[bulldogtragic]

Picken, Boyd and Cloke all got big head knocks early on and have battled a bit afterwards.

Libba too, from Mumford. They all seemed to come back a bit too soon, according to their immediate form when returning.

[GVGjr]

MJP, Webb plays in the midfield at the VFL. He's been a bit quiet when he's played in the seniors. I think he needs just one break out game.

[Ozza]

Like MJP's post and agree with it apart from the comment on Webb which is inaccurate. Webb hasn't played at Half Back in the seniors, he has been mid/forward. He only really played as a HBF in 2015 - and to be honest, it is where he has looked his best. I don't think inside mid/forward is his go. Prefer to see him return to half back and establish himself there with his reading of the play and foot skills.

[merantau]

I looked at North Freo and Power v Cokes. The way those teams were moving the ball was light years away from what we've been able to produce for most of the year.
We have not been able to generate SPACE to run into nor have we been using handball as an attacking weapon.
I can't remember the last time I saw a 15 mt handball delivered to a player on the run. That betrays a real lack of confidence.

[kruder]

For mine Webb playing inside mid suits the Footscray side but not the AFL side. How many inside mids do we need? Its time to try him elsewhere at both levels.

[Insufficient Intent]

Might not be able to try Webb anywhere until this is resolved:

"Midfielder Lukas Webb (one goal) had a day he'd rather forget after being reported in the first half and not having his usual output."

(From today's AFL site article "Around the State Leagues")

Great constructive posts above from bt and mjp. It's often hard to be constructive when you're miserable!

[Mantis]

We have to get back to the basics on stop trying to be so inventive with ruckman. I still firmly believe it's one of the reasons why Tom Boyd didn't progress this year. Hopefully in 2018 we have him primarily slotted into a key forward role.

I know you've been banging on about the ruck situation for forever and a day, but in Roughead & Campbell and then help from Boyd we have enough in this category.. Obviously when didn't forsee Roughy missing the first half of the season which left us exposed, especially given how fragile BTC is.

If we had another stop gap ruck on the list it would have been to the detriment to the development of English & NMM.

Not sold on Boyd as only a key forward, a lot will have to improve in his game for him to be successful in that role, but he has shown good signs as a forward-ruck.

[Rocco Jones]

In being so determined to play to our own strengths and not targeting or really adapting to the opposition, I feel we have become extremely predictable. Ironically, this hurts our strength as it makes it easy for the opposition to target.

[GVGjr]

I know you've been banging on about the ruck situation for forever and a day, but in Roughead & Campbell and then help from Boyd we have enough in this category.. Obviously when didn't forsee Roughy missing the first half of the season which left us exposed, especially given how fragile BTC is.

If we had another stop gap ruck on the list it would have been to the detriment to the development of English & NMM.

Not sold on Boyd as only a key forward, a lot will have to improve in his game for him to be successful in that role, but he has shown good signs as a forward-ruck.


I'm not going to agree with you on having that player that can take a turn in the ruck so I'll let it slide but how often do you think NMM has been used there this year? There would have been close to zero impacts on English or NMM development if we had another player capable of doing some ruck work on the list.

As for Boyd, did he train as a forward or as a ruckman in the pre-season?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I looked at North Freo and Power v Cokes. The way those teams were moving the ball was light years away from what we've been able to produce for most of the year.
We have not been able to generate SPACE to run into nor have we been using handball as an attacking weapon.
I can't remember the last time I saw a 15 mt handball delivered to a player on the run. That betrays a real lack of confidence.
I managed to watch the Hawks v GWS draw and in spite of Hawthorn's change in personnel they are now emerging as a real threat again. Their outstanding foot skills puts our disposal to shame. Our biggest weakness currently IMO apart from a poor forward line is our inability to hit targets. JMac would do well to make it a number one priority as Clarkson has done now successfully over a number of years to actually recruit players who can dispose of the ball correctly.

[Ozza]

I managed to watch the Hawks v GWS draw and in spite of Hawthorn's change in personnel they are now emerging as a real threat again. Their outstanding foot skills puts our disposal to shame. Our biggest weakness currently IMO apart from a poor forward line is our inability to hit targets. JMac would do well to make it a number one priority as Clarkson has done now successfully over a number of years to actually recruit players who can dispose of the ball correctly.

Agree to a certain extent in that the Hawks have really turned themselves around within the season and agree that their kicking skills are excellent.

However, I think Hodge makes them a 3 or 4 goal better side - and they will miss him badly. Burgoyne retiring, whether at the end of this year, or next, will hurt them also - as he is such a key player in close games, so influential in last quarters.

I also really don't understand why teams don't clamp down on Tom Mitchell. He's been phenomenal, and although his disposal doesn't hurt you - if you stop some of his impact at the source - then their lack of midfield depth is exposed. Shiels, Smith, Howe, Hartung, Langford aren't suddenly going to turn into big possession winners.

[MrMahatma]

I managed to watch the Hawks v GWS draw and in spite of Hawthorn's change in personnel they are now emerging as a real threat again. Their outstanding foot skills puts our disposal to shame. Our biggest weakness currently IMO apart from a poor forward line is our inability to hit targets. JMac would do well to make it a number one priority as Clarkson has done now successfully over a number of years to actually recruit players who can dispose of the ball correctly.

Who knows how long their form continues or how quick they get back up the top, but their template and recruiting non-negotiables around kicking and ball use is a good fundamental to build a squad around.

[Mantis]

I'm not going to agree with you on having that player that can take a turn in the ruck so I'll let it slide but how often do you think NMM has been used there this year? There would have been close to zero impacts on English or NMM development if we had another player capable of doing some ruck work on the list.

NMM has been used sparingly as he hasn't really been needed.


As for Boyd, did he train as a forward or as a ruckman in the pre-season?

NFI.. But whatever our plans were, they went out the window when Roughy & Campbell got injured in our pre-season games.

[GVGjr]

NMM has been used sparingly as he hasn't really been needed.

Before the weekend I've maybe seen him take a handful of rucking contests. He did a bit in the last quarter at Sandringham.
There would have been close to zero impact to the development of either NMM and English had we specifically recruited someone who could take a decent turn in the ruck. It didn't have to be a ruckman.


NFI.. But whatever our plans were, they went out the window when Roughy & Campbell got injured in our pre-season games.

We backed 2 ruckman with a decent history of struggling with injuries to cover our rucking requirements for a premiership defense which to me was a risk we didn't need to take. We had the room on the list to at least factor in some contingency in the event of an injury or two and to potentially protect and manage Tim English as his body adapts to the demands of AFL footy let alone rucking.
It also would have been a wise move when you consider we had Boyd and even Redpath coming off surgeries.

My understanding is Boyd didn't do anywhere near the work of Roughead and Campbell with the midfield over the preseason to gain some continuity with the midfielders. He was coming off a shoulder injury and was more focused on working with Cloke.
I get that a crisis occurred but he really wasn't ready to handle the workload that followed.

[Webby]

The third man up rule clearly hurt us more than any other club b this season ( Hawks a close second), so there were a couple of things that went against us this year.

It's a funny game, AFL footy. Teams who play on oblong shaped ovals will fill in those who play on round grounds (who are relatively evenly matched).... Then, the GF is played on the roundest of venues.. and teams who play on round venues are advantaged...

We play at Etihad - which is narrower than the 'G' but wider that Kardinia Park, Spotless (or whatever it's called!), Subiaco, or Adelaide Oval... Testament to how well we did on October 1st, 2016!

Modern footy is so structured that the teams that play on the wider grounds (the MCG and SCG), should be given more kudos than you'd think. Therefore Bevo was right last year and the year before when he said "you have to win at the 'G', regardlesss."

Anyway, the above points to the fact that last year was simply enormous. The AFL Premier will come from the Swans or the Tigers (believe it or not!). Apart from the freakish Geelong sides (who play plenty at the 'G'), all Afl premiers in the modern, highly structured, tactical era, are based on the wide mr venues..

Get on Swans or Tigers.... And get on us in 2018 - if we recruit we'll..!