I'm prepared to offer up my left nut...

[bulldogtragic]

For a goal kicking coach, forward coach or skills coach who can get us kicking easy goals.

[Twodogs]

Believe it or not its pretty simple to fix. Give me a player for 10 minutes and I will improve his kicking. If I can't do it then I will shut up forever about it but the frustrating thing is its really easy to fix.

[Twodogs]

BTW I really don't want either of your testicles. I can di the job for free.

[bulldogtragic]

BTW I really don't want either of your testicles. I can di the job for free.

Sell it to Lance Armstrong and get Sav Rocca or similar to join you on staff.

[Twodogs]

We dont need sav *!*!*!*!ing rocca. We are overcomplicating it already

[bulldogtragic]

I'd love to know how much train inning we do. Is it a once a week thing, or every day/session.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It's clearly our biggest deficiency. No other team has to work harder than us to score from our good work upfield.

Heresy I dare say, but is Stringer untouchable? Is Libba making himself an asset. Is Wally best 22?
How much can we reasonably expect of Bont without more middield class around him?

[bulldogtragic]

It's clearly our biggest deficiency. No other team has to work harder than us to score from our good work upfield.

Heresy I dare say, but is Stringer untouchable? Is Libba making himself an asset. Is Wally best 22?
How much can we reasonably expect of Bont without more middield class around him?

If AFL/GCS said they need a marque player to remain viable and wanted Stringer, I'd listen.

We've a glut of slow/mid paced mids. We should listen to any offers.

I'd hate to see us treat Bonts like Pavlich and shove him in every hole hoping the list around him would win a flag (it nearly did). But I take your point, we need class and speed badly. To get good talent, you usually have to give good talent other than FA.

[always right]

Really missed JJ tonight whether he played forward or back, particularly his ability to carry and deliver the ball before opposition defences can get organised. Without him we are too predictable and find it difficult to get separation.

[AndrewP6]

I can remember commenting on this very issue here on WOOF in our 08-10 PF run... And it's still bloody there.

[always right]

If AFL/GCS said they need a marque player to remain viable and wanted Stringer, I'd listen.

We've a glut of slow/mid paced mids. We should listen to any offers.

I'd hate to see us treat Bonts like Pavlich and shove him in every hole hoping the list around him would win a flag (it nearly did). But I take your point, we need class and speed badly. To get good talent, you usually have to give good talent other than FA.
I get the criticism of Stringer but in a team that has a lot of workmanlike players, I wouldn't like to discard someone who can do the mercurial. Reckon we need to trust that he will develop into the player we hope he will be.

[bulldogtragic]

I get the criticism of Stringer but in a team that has a lot of workmanlike players, I wouldn't like to discard someone who can do the mercurial. Reckon we need to trust that he will develop into the player we hope he will be.

I'm just saying listen. To remain viable they will need a big name, a popular face, dazzling on field. If they settled on Stringer and wanted to overpay to keep their franchise on life support, I'd listen.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We go either two ways from here; we back our plan and assume Stringer, Dickson, Wallis and perhaps most importantly Libba have it in them to put in the mother of all off-seasons that enables us to regain our current game plan's preeminence or we trade to forge a new identity. I truly don't know

[always right]

This list needs tweaking....not an irrational overhaul. Getting a decent run with injuries wouldn't hurt either. Some blokes need to get in the gym (Young, Cordy, Williams, English) and some need to be banned from the gym (Adams, Collins).

[GVGjr]

This list needs tweaking....not an irrational overhaul. Getting a decent run with injuries wouldn't hurt either. Some blokes need to get in the gym (Young, Cordy, Williams, English) and some need to be banned from the gym (Adams, Collins).

That's the way I see it. There is still plenty to get excited about but some hard assessments and decisions need to be made

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That's the way I see it. There is still plenty to get excited about but some hard assessments and decisions need to be made

And where does that asessment need to fall?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I get the criticism of Stringer but in a team that has a lot of workmanlike players, I wouldn't like to discard someone who can do the mercurial. Reckon we need to trust that he will develop into the player we hope he will be.

The mercurial is aptly named; it rarely happens.

Jake doesn't do the basics and has gone backwards for 24 months. I'm done hearing about how mecurial he is, or how much of a weapon he is. His output for a long extended period of time has not been up to standard, regardless of any physical attributes. His work rate is absolutely non-existent, he doesn't win his own ball and his goal kicking is putrid.

[GVGjr]

And where does that asessment need to fall?

The assessments on players hunger, ambition and capabilities need to be made. If we have a player or two who aren't buying in lets help them move on. We also need to make hard decisions on some players if they have the skills and talent to play the game as a senior footballer or if they offer enough upside to preserver with

[ledge]

We are a premiership team with a very young backline filling in . One bad half of footy and we are all doom and gloom.
I'm not so upset about our forwards but our delivery into it . It seems our mid Coach is not on the same page as our forward coach.
I don't believe we need to trade or bemoan the list , it's a good list , it's a young list.
I question not playing Roberts and putting a 4 game ( youngest player in the league) on a man mountain with Massive talent.
I question that Toby Greene and Patton are our devil but we seem to do nothing to stop them.
To me it's a coaching thing and getting all our coaches to work together better .
65 entries to 35 tells you we get it in better than any team in the league. We just need to deliver properly or get the forwards to run to spots our mids kick it to.

[Ozza]

I think the inside 50 stat on a night like tonight can be really misleading.

We may have racked up a stack of inside 50s, but many of these were just scrambling repeat entries into a very very congested forward line. Those type of entries - the player with the footy looks up and sees no clear options - and the forwards have no space to get clear.

I think there were two areas that really killed us.
One is more or less the title/intent of the thread. When we did get chances - we missed set shots, we hand balled backwards to the 'good kicker' imposter Suckling, or we kicked to options that were very very wide - giving us less chance to be accurate.

Another key area that killed us was centre clearances. Now there are centre clearances - where you get a scrambling clearance under the pump - and then there are centre clearances where players link up and someone gets the ball in the clear and kicks inside 50 to a non-congested or at least evenly balanced forward line of 1 on 1's. No prizes for guessing which team got the quality centre clearances.

I really thought Rough could give us the ascendency there - but he wasn't great, and Libba and Wally looked like witches hats against the class of Shiel, Ward and Kelly.

[Twodogs]

Something I need to get off my chest. If I see Jack Macrae find himself clear on goal and instead of taking the shot turn his back on goal and look to pass it off it will be me you can hear screaming. He did twice tonight.

[LostDoggy]

And when woll
I get the criticism of Stringer but in a team that has a lot of workmanlike players, I wouldn't like to discard someone who can do the mercurial. Reckon we need to trust that he will develop into the player we hope he will be.
And when will this be as he has wasted 2 years and usually flashes in during the last quarter when game is over. He can do anything but rarely does!😒

[ratsmac]

We panicked all night. We seemed to be scared of the pressure that the Giants were putting us under. A lot time we had a chance going forward and our entry into 50 was a nervous kick with zero confidence. We don't have that goal nous that we once had. I want to say its because of the players we have available but forward of centre is where we actually look OK an the moment. The old clichè is bad kicking is bad football, well last night we gave it an exclamation mark.

One part of the game plan that was pretty good was to restrict the Giants forward entries because of our depleted defence. We kept their numbers low but it was their clean ball use that killed us. They showed us of the skill level that is required. The answer to this problem is......... Trade and recruit well and employ coaches who can get results I suppose.

[Twodogs]

I'd love to know how much train inning we do. Is it a once a week thing, or every day/session.
The last time I watched them practice they were having shots from different parts of the fifty. They were doing all the things wrong they normally do but nobody was standing on the mark so pretty much every shot sailed through.

It was very frustrating to watch.

[LostDoggy]

The mercurial is aptly named; it rarely happens.

Jake doesn't do the basics and has gone backwards for 24 months. I'm done hearing about how mecurial he is, or how much of a weapon he is. His output for a long extended period of time has not been up to standard, regardless of any physical attributes. His work rate is absolutely non-existent, he doesn't win his own ball and his goal kicking is putrid.

Agree

[1eyedog]

I think the inside 50 stat on a night like tonight can be really misleading.

We may have racked up a stack of inside 50s, but many of these were just scrambling repeat entries into a very very congested forward line. Those type of entries - the player with the footy looks up and sees no clear options - and the forwards have no space to get clear.

I think there were two areas that really killed us.
One is more or less the title/intent of the thread. When we did get chances - we missed set shots, we hand balled backwards to the 'good kicker' imposter Suckling, or we kicked to options that were very very wide - giving us less chance to be accurate.

Another key area that killed us was centre clearances. Now there are centre clearances - where you get a scrambling clearance under the pump - and then there are centre clearances where players link up and someone gets the ball in the clear and kicks inside 50 to a non-congested or at least evenly balanced forward line of 1 on 1's. No prizes for guessing which team got the quality centre clearances.

I really thought Rough could give us the ascendency there - but he wasn't great, and Libba and Wally looked like witches hats against the class of Shiel, Ward and Kelly.

Yeah they were happy to allow us to go inside 50 last night into congestion and back themselves in to extract and run. They are at the top of the tree in contested ball and move it out of defence like a fast flowing river. Out coached last night.

[always right]

Yeah they were happy to allow us to go inside 50 last night into congestion and back themselves in to extract and run. They are at the top of the tree in contested ball and move it out of defence like a fast flowing river. Out coached last night.

You make it sound like a deliberate tactic to allow us to have the ball in our forward half 83% of the time in the second quarter. I'm not buying it. If they "backed themselves in to extract and run", they didn't do a great job of it with only four forward entries for the quarter. The only thing that stopped us going into halftime with a four goal lead was our own ineptness and some resolute defence from GWS.

[always right]

The mercurial is aptly named; it rarely happens.

Jake doesn't do the basics and has gone backwards for 24 months. I'm done hearing about how mecurial he is, or how much of a weapon he is. His output for a long extended period of time has not been up to standard, regardless of any physical attributes. His work rate is absolutely non-existent, he doesn't win his own ball and his goal kicking is putrid.
I'm not defending Stringer but you don't trade blokes like him out without being sure it is a fruitless cause. I think he has one or two years left on his contract so he has one or two years to prove he can address his shortcomings. I wouldn't be rushing to extend his contract but you don't give up on blokes with his talent prematurely. I don't want to give him an excuse but his private life has been a distraction all year and I'd like to see how he approaches his footy next year before writing him off. As I said previously, we need blokes who can do something inspiring.....it just needs to be on a consistent basis.....whilst also doing the basics well.

[anfo27]

It doesn't help when we have having our shots from the boundary or outside 50 & we have guys like Stringer, Dunkley, Cloke & Redpath who are poor kicks for goal. Then one of the best kicks going around in Bont has the yips.

Its amazing we kicked so straight in the finals last year.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm reminded of a convo I had with BMac. He said Jake is the most talented player he's ever coached or been round (think of all the Geelong players, GAJ etc). But he said the biggest issue Jake has is work rate.

Work rate seems to be the issue nearly 3 years on.

[Twodogs]

I'm reminded of a convo I had with BMac. He said Jake is the most talented player he's ever coached or been round (think of all the Geelong players, GAJ etc). But he said the biggest issue Jake has is work rate.

Work rate seems to be the issue nearly 3 years on.

I dunno how much advice or criticism I'd listen to from Bmac about any of our players. He'd lost it in a major way by his last year with us.

Im not saying he was imcompetent but I'd be taking everything he said with a grain of salt


I think we'd be insane to trade Stringer out. He will be a superstar. We get to chose if it's going to be with us or another club. If he goes to another club we will regret it for the next decade.

You keep quality players.

[Happy Days]

Stringer isn't the problem. Our midfield got badly shown up last night by quicker, faster, stronger players and looked amateur. I haven't seen the stats but I'm pretty sure we didn't have a disposal after half time. Roughy was immensely disappointing against an inferior opponent too.

Our lack of killer instinct around goals is very frustrating, but it's a by-product of prioritising ball control and stoppages over gifting the ball back to the opposition in a dangerous position. Its not going to change without dramatic overhaul of playing style, and I think its something we might have to assess when our season ends in two weeks.

But the midfield is super worrying. The guys we have coming through (Dunkley, Webb(?), McLean) all are, in their own way, weak against one of the above strengths. If only there were a young guy on the market who represented the total package that we could throw a stack of money at and whose best mate also played for us already?

I know it's not the right thread, but I learned last night that we need Lever and Kelly.

[ratsmac]

I dunno how much advice or criticism I'd listen to from Bmac about any of our players. He'd lost it in a major way by his last year with us.

Im not saying he was imcompetent but I'd be taking everything he said with a grain of salt


I think we'd be insane to trade Stringer out. He will be a superstar. We get to chose if it's going to be with us or another club. If he goes to another club we will regret it for the next decade.

You keep quality players.

I with you 100% Twodogs BUT would you right now trade Stringer for Josh Kelly, straight swap. I'd seriously consider it.

[Twodogs]

I with you 100% Twodogs BUT would you right now trade Stringer for Josh Kelly, straight swap. I'd seriously consider it.

In that situation I'd be interested that they have offered up Kelly and try and keep him on the table by offering everything short of Stringer. Stringer would be my deal breaker straight away.

Actually thinking about how much it would improve our team. Kelly and the Bont, geeeez...

[westdog54]

We are a premiership team with a very young backline filling in . One bad half of footy and we are all doom and gloom.
I'm not so upset about our forwards but our delivery into it . It seems our mid Coach is not on the same page as our forward coach.
I don't believe we need to trade or bemoan the list , it's a good list , it's a young list.
I question not playing Roberts and putting a 4 game ( youngest player in the league) on a man mountain with Massive talent.
I question that Toby Greene and Patton are our devil but we seem to do nothing to stop them.
To me it's a coaching thing and getting all our coaches to work together better .
65 entries to 35 tells you we get it in better than any team in the league. We just need to deliver properly or get the forwards to run to spots our mids kick it to.

With all due respect ledge, this has not been borne out of one bad half of footy.

Our goalkicking is the worst in the league. It has cost us at least two games and almost cost us half a dozen more.

And last night should have been a hell of a lot closer than it was, we should have been in front at half time and we ought to have at least been in the hunt at 3qt. You can say the same for the Adelaide game.

As much as our entries are an issue, this has been staring us in the face all year and it still is.

[always right]

I with you 100% Twodogs BUT would you right now trade Stringer for Josh Kelly, straight swap. I'd seriously consider it.
Even I would consider that trade.....because you know you are getting a quality player. I wouldn't trade him for a draft pick...yet.

[bulldogtragic]

In that situation I'd be interested that they have offered up Kelly and try and keep him on the table by offering everything short of Stringer. Stringer would be my deal breaker straight away.

Stringer for Kelly & their first rounder?

[azabob]

Stringer for Kelly & their first rounder?

Not that it will happen but we are winning that by a country mile.

[bulldogtragic]

Not that it will happen but we are winning that by a country mile.

Yep. Just trying to work out how lopsided it'd need to be to trade him.

[ledge]

With all due respect ledge, this has not been borne out of one bad half of footy.

Our goalkicking is the worst in the league. It has cost us at least two games and almost cost us half a dozen more.

And last night should have been a hell of a lot closer than it was, we should have been in front at half time and we ought to have at least been in the hunt at 3qt. You can say the same for the Adelaide game.

As much as our entries are an issue, this has been staring us in the face all year and it still is.

Yes our kicking has been bad for two years but As I said above I don't think it's the players.
And we don't help by going wide and making them awkward shots . So I will still say it's our delivery into the forward line or our forwards leading to silly spots.
I won't turf players while it's a set up problem.

[always right]

Yes our kicking has been bad for two years but As I said above I don't think it's the players.
And we don't help by going wide and making them awkward shots . So I will still say it's our delivery into the forward line or our forwards leading to silly spots.
I won't turf players while it's a set up problem.
Fair enough.....but the goal kicking of Bont, Roughy, Stringer and Dahlhaus has arguably got worse over the last two years. How does that happen?

[ledge]

Fair enough.....but the goal kicking of Bont, Roughy, Stringer and Dahlhaus has arguably got worse over the last two years. How does that happen?

From more difficult angles? Further out ?
I don't know but it all needs to be addressed and trading them is not the answer in my opinion.
We did win a premiership last year, half the team is missing , the replacements are young, these young ones might be the answer.
Our list is very very good, we are not going to do a Buckley are we and dismantle a young side that won a flag ?
We know how that's worked out.

[bornadog]

Stringer isn't the problem. Our midfield got badly shown up last night by quicker, faster, stronger players and looked amateur. I haven't seen the stats but I'm pretty sure we didn't have a disposal after half time. Roughy was immensely disappointing against an inferior opponent too.

Our lack of killer instinct around goals is very frustrating, but it's a by-product of prioritising ball control and stoppages over gifting the ball back to the opposition in a dangerous position. Its not going to change without dramatic overhaul of playing style, and I think its something we might have to assess when our season ends in two weeks.

But the midfield is super worrying. The guys we have coming through (Dunkley, Webb(?), McLean) all are, in their own way, weak against one of the above strengths. If only there were a young guy on the market who represented the total package that we could throw a stack of money at and whose best mate also played for us already?

I know it's not the right thread, but I learned last night that we need Lever and Kelly.

Hit the nail on the head - midfield thrashed last night.

What is worse, the GWS mids can actually kick a ball. Other than Bonti and Libba (who hardly gets the ball), our other mids cannot kick. The number of times McLean's kicks went straight up in the air, or Macrae's ridiculous kicking action, Hunter's kicks either good or very bad, Dahl a terrible kick, and so it goes on.

[always right]

From more difficult angles? Further out ?
I don't know but it all needs to be addressed and trading them is not the answer in my opinion.
We did win a premiership last year, half the team is missing , the replacements are young, these young ones might be the answer.
Our list is very very good, we are not going to do a Buckley are we and dismantle a young side that won a flag ?
We know how that's worked out.
Not saying players should be turfed but a little surprised by your claim it isn't the player's fault.

[GVGjr]

Not saying players should be turfed but a little surprised by your claim it isn't the player's fault.

It's typically a combination of players and coaches when teams under perform. I suspect some of our coaches didn't demand that all players come back in their best condition.

We need only have a look at our players performances in 2016 home and away season and compare them to this year. I doubt we have found enough improvement in this list. On top of that we didn't get the structure right during the trade period.

[Twodogs]

It's typically a combination of players and coaches when teams under perform. I suspect some of our coaches didn't demand that all players come back in their best condition.

We need only have a look at our players performances in 2016 home and away season and compare them to this year. I doubt we have found enough improvement in this list. On top of that we didn't get the structure right during the trade period.

Just changing the coaches around wasn't enough. In fact if you're not going to change the faces I'm wondering why we changed the coaching structure around at all because it was working pretty well. We appear to have fixed something that wasn't broken and made it perform worse in the process.

[josie]

I would also do straight swap Stringer for Kelly. Not sure GWS would take it quite frankly. Stringers lack of effort and inability to take relatively easy marks and kick realively easy goals is frustrating. I continue to think Wallis is too slow and disposal below average. I love Dahl's efforts to win the ball however his kicking is woeful. IMO we desperately need more class in the midfield and a decent ruckman way more than defenders or forwards. Some bold decisions need to be made in off-season for us to remain competitive with the plastics. We should start another thread on who we think are untouchables. Cordy, Daniel, Bont, Maclean,JJ, Macrae come to mind.

[Eastdog]

It's typically a combination of players and coaches when teams under perform. I suspect some of our coaches didn't demand that all players come back in their best condition.

We need only have a look at our players performances in 2016 home and away season and compare them to this year. I doubt we have found enough improvement in this list. On top of that we didn't get the structure right during the trade period.

Tend to agree that it is a bit of both the coaches and the players. Bevo more than anyone right now would be extremely frustrated. Bevo probably knows what is going on but is finding it difficult to fix it. At the same time the players need to take responsibility clearly as many are down on form. Injuries have not helped either. We have this year brought the manic pressure which has been great to see but it certainly hasn't been there very week. The GWS game earlier in the year comes to mind a game we should have won - the game 2 weeks ago v Dons we were very good the Saints game as well.

[always right]

It's typically a combination of players and coaches when teams under perform. I suspect some of our coaches didn't demand that all players come back in their best condition.

We need only have a look at our players performances in 2016 home and away season and compare them to this year. I doubt we have found enough improvement in this list. On top of that we didn't get the structure right during the trade period.
I was referring to their goal kicking rather than their overall performance.

[Twodogs]

Stringer for Kelly & their first rounder?

It's getting to where do I sign?

But the most important thing now is you're more worried I will walk out of the room without doing a deal than I am. (I know you are high balling me to gauge my response but you see my point and how we should approach it.) For this exercise we have to stick to the line there is no way we would even consider trading Jake to see what they will offer first up. Kelly and a first round pick would be an excellent outcome.

[bulldogtragic]

It's getting to where do I sign?

But the most important thing now is you're more worried I will walk out of the room without doing a deal than I am. (I know you are high balling me to gauge my response but you see my point and how we should approach it.) For this exercise we have to stick to the line there is no way we would even consider trading Jake to see what they will offer first up. Kelly and a first round pick would be an excellent outcome.

He's contracted and going nowhere... Good start? :D

How about Kelly and exchanging their first rounder for our second (circa pick 28 upgraded into pick 18) Then picks 10 & 18 for Lever (and change). So that's our first two picks & Stringer for Kelly & Lever (and change). Is that enough?

[Twodogs]

Hit the nail on the head - midfield thrashed last night.

What is worse, the GWS mids can actually kick a ball. Other than Bonti and Libba (who hardly gets the ball), our other mids cannot kick. The number of times McLean's kicks went straight up in the air, or Macrae's ridiculous kicking action, Hunter's kicks either good or very bad, Dahl a terrible kick, and so it goes on.

Our disposal must be bad when we are surprised that the opposition can actually kick the ball. But there are so few teams in the AFL that can kick the ball it is a bit of a novelty when you see one.


Fair enough.....but the goal kicking of Bont, Roughy, Stringer and Dahlhaus has arguably got worse over the last two years. How does that happen?

Because they all have lousy kicking techniques and nobody had done anything to address it for one thing. They spin the ball in their hands as they run in, they lift their heads to look at the goal as they kick the ball and lean backwards as a result, they run in at an angle. I can only assume that nobody has done any serious tuition with them like Sav Rocca has done with Levi Casboult at Carlton this year.

[Twodogs]

He's contracted and going nowhere... Good start? :D

How about Kelly and exchanging their first rounder for our second (circa pick 28 upgraded into pick 18) Then picks 10 & 18 for Lever (and change). So that's our first two picks & Stringer for Kelly & Lever (and change). Is that enough?


I'm still a bit luke warm on Lever but that'd do me. Just watching McGovern for Adelaide, how about him instead?

[bulldogtragic]

I'm still a bit luke warm on Lever but that'd do me. Just watching McGovern for Adelaide, how about him instead?

Pick any player worth our then picks 10 & 18.

[Bullies]

I'm still a bit luke warm on Lever but that'd do me. Just watching McGovern for Adelaide, how about him instead? So much more upside with Lever. The guy is a gun. Should have gone 1 or 2 in his draft but for a broken leg/reco? scaring everyone off.