Who is in the "must keep" list? Players and Coaches.

[josie]

Here's my take on it:

Players
Bonti
Macrae
Dale
McLean
T.Boyd
Young
Cordy
Morris
Adams
Dahl-possibly, because he is a heart and soul player


Coaches
Bevo
Corey

[GVGjr]

I tend to think the list looks about right Josie and I'd certainly have Dahlhaus in the must keep category.

That been said, any monster offer should be considered.

Wallis and Libertore are not likely to be traded unless they don't have the required hunger. I can't see that being an issue with Wallis but there is an outside chance it could be with Liberatore. JJ stays no matter what

Re the coaches I think Smith and Hansen should be maintained along with Corey. Bevo untouchable

[josie]

I kind of agree GVGjr however I think we have too many with poor kicking skills or too slow. I am not by any means advocating we give up on all or most of those that are not untouchable. There are also player loyalty and culture issues to consider as well.

Do we need Smith back at coal face instead of his role this year (was it development coach?).

[bornadog]

Here's my take on it:

Players
Bonti
Macrae
Dale
McLean
T.Boyd
Young
Cordy
Morris
Adams
Dahl-possibly, because he is a heart and soul player


Coaches
Bevo
Corey

Morris to retire

Plus:

Stringer
JJ
Wood
Roughead
English

I am with GVGjr on Libba and Wallis

[GVGjr]

I kind of agree GVGjr however I think we have too many with poor kicking skills or too slow. I am not by any means advocating we give up on all or most of those that are not untouchable. There are also player loyalty and culture issues to consider as well.

Do we need Smith back at coal face instead of his role this year (was it development coach?).

I get that, it's just a good list to debate.

I think we do need Smith back running the back line. It might be interesting to see if he pursues other development opportunities.

[bornadog]

I get that, it's just a good list to debate.

I think we do need Smith back running the back line. It might be interesting to see if he pursues other development opportunities.

I think the coaches need a refresh, most of them have been assistants for 5 years now. Bevo needs a new crew. I would be happy to get rid of the lot (except Bevo of course).

I for one don't believe for one minute that swapping them around this year effected our team and the way we play.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting Bevo talked of the lack of pre-season with Smith and Dickson , and reckon you could throw Wood in that category as well .
Gotta be very careful who you tip out, and maybe let the dust settle .

[SlimPickens]

Interesting Bevo talked of the lack of pre-season with Smith and Dickson , and reckon you could throw Wood in that category as well .
Gotta be very careful who you tip out, and maybe let the dust settle .

And yet never gets mentioned that Libba didn't run until mid Jan.

[FrediKanoute]

I maintain that this year is the price we paid for last year's heroics. No team has won from 7th before, which means that we played 4 cut-throat finals with many players playing with injuries that should have seen them iced and in for surgury a lot earlier than they did. The post season op list was enormous - meaning delayed pre-seasons etc. You add to this the fact that the group remains young and won the flag 2 years earlier than the age profile says they should.

We will not make whoesale list changes and those calling for the trading of guys like Libba, Stringer, T Boyd etc are overreacting - yes they had poor seasons, but they were not alone and trading away gun players just strengthens the opposition. On the keep list are:

Bonti
Macrae
Dale
McLean
T.Boyd
Young
Cordy
Morris
Adams
Dahl
Stringer
Libba
Wallis
Wood
Roughead
English (the whole of the draft for 2016, they get a free pass into 2018 unless attitude is an issue)
Biggs
Redders
Webb
Dunkley
Daniel
Picken
Jong
Suckers
Hunter

That is 23 (plus 2 other first year) players out of the 38 main list guys. Guys we should keep, but who may struggle next year/on borrowed time:

Smith
Dicko
Williams
Collins
Cloke
Crameri
Roberts
Campbell
honeychurch

Of these I can see maybe 1 or 2 being moved on. They rest will stay and play on.

2017 was characterised by a number of issues:

1) a poor pre-season - attitudal, time, injuries
2) injuries - Jong, Adams, Dunkley, Stringer, T Boyd, Cloke, Crammers, Wood, Morris - we never had a settled line up and the backline and forwardline in particular suffered from constantly changing personnel
3) aging - Dicko, M Boyd, Murphy - 2 of whom were prime movers last year through either age/form/fitness struggled

2017 was the season we had to have - the positives have been that we blooded/got games into Jong, Williams, Webb, Dale and Young. Negatives injuries and poor form. Can't wait for 2018!

[Eastdog]

Good summary Fredi.

I would probably put Williams on the keep list. Has a good future and has really shown great signs down in defence. Smith just hasn't played that much this year but when he has played has certainly not been what he was last year particular in the final series.

It is very easy after a poor season to really cull the list down but we need to remember that many players this year have been out of form and not anywhere near 2016 form and injuries as well have really hurt our season and that was never going to make it easy.

[FrediKanoute]

Williams worries me. I don't think his decision making is all that good. Its not instinctive. Happy to give him time though as he is still young. Personally I would prefer Webb in his role - better kick, good mark and makes better decisions.

Clay.....3 knee reco's means that he is an injury away from finishing up. I don't think we will delist him, but with list space becoming an ever more prescious commodity another season like this and I think he will be moved on.
Agree - re poor season. Talk of a major cull is nonsence. Maybe if the 2015/6 draftees had stepped up to dominate, but they haven't

[KT31]

Whats Gilbee up to now days ?
Surely the club could slot him in as kicking coach.

[bulldogtragic]

Williams worries me. I don't think his decision making is all that good. Its not instinctive. Happy to give him time though as he is still young. Personally I would prefer Webb in his role - better kick, good mark and makes better decisions.

Clay.....3 knee reco's means that he is an injury away from finishing up. I don't think we will delist him, but with list space becoming an ever more prescious commodity another season like this and I think he will be moved on.
Agree - re poor season. Talk of a major cull is nonsence. Maybe if the 2015/6 draftees had stepped up to dominate, but they haven't

Agree on Williams. I like his aggressiveness off the line, but his kicking is 50/50. Particularly his desire for running shots at goal where he's kicked 0 goals, 6 behinds. But keeps calling for the ball outside 50 on the run.

I find it strange that Williams gets to be a HBF without distraction of 'playing other roles' to his development, yet Webb gets forced into other roles where his strengthes get covered over by other matters. Williams stays, and Webb likely leaves.

[Eastdog]

Williams worries me. I don't think his decision making is all that good. Its not instinctive. Happy to give him time though as he is still young. Personally I would prefer Webb in his role - better kick, good mark and makes better decisions.

Clay.....3 knee reco's means that he is an injury away from finishing up. I don't think we will delist him, but with list space becoming an ever more prescious commodity another season like this and I think he will be moved on.
Agree - re poor season. Talk of a major cull is nonsence. Maybe if the 2015/6 draftees had stepped up to dominate, but they haven't

Webb while he hasn't lived up to the rigours of AFL we really haven't played him much in the seniors to really make a good analysis of his AFL form. Honeychurch when he was playing this year I thought looked alright in the games but again hasn't played much at AFL level. Declan Hamilton will he play next year or could he be one that we let go at seasons end - hasn't played an AFL game yet.

[bornadog]

Whats Gilbee up to now days ?
Surely the club could slot him in as kicking coach.

Saints assistant

[GVGjr]

I maintain that this year is the price we paid for last year's heroics. No team has won from 7th before, which means that we played 4 cut-throat finals with many players playing with injuries that should have seen them iced and in for surgury a lot earlier than they did. The post season op list was enormous - meaning delayed pre-seasons etc. You add to this the fact that the group remains young and won the flag 2 years earlier than the age profile says they should.



In any other year 15 wins would have had us top 4 and dropping a game late in the season stopped us from having 16 wins.
7th rated us poorly, we were certainly a top 4 side or at worst a top 5 side. 7th was just a number.
I don't agree if you are implying we sort of fluked it from 7th. whatever way I look at it we should not have dropped like we have.

The post season is another matter, hopefully lessons have been learned.

[GVGjr]

Whats Gilbee up to now days ?
Surely the club could slot him in as kicking coach.

Ironically I wouldn't think the Saints are a great kicking side.

[hujsh]

In any other year 15 wins would have had us top 4 and dropping a game late in the season stopped us from having 16 wins.
7th rated us poorly, we were certainly a top 4 side or at worst a top 5 side. 7th was just a number.
I don't agree if you are implying we sort of fluked it from 7th. whatever way I look at it we should not have dropped like we have.

The post season is another matter, hopefully lessons have been learned.
I don't think that was the implication. More that the consequence of finishing 7th was that there was no room for error and we were always at a disadvantage and this meant guys were playing injured who otherwise would have been prepping for a proper pre-season.

[Doc26]

I find it interesting that Hawthorn, under Clarkson, continues to pride itself on identifying and building its game style on high efficiency disposal, and yet Bevo, who somewhat cut his teeth there, has not yet been able to implement, or be seen to be prioritising this approach at the Bulldogs during his 3 years at the helm; with the success we had in 2016 built largely off a manic, high pressure style - which would now appear not sustainable. Fortunately we shopped early and took the prize.

Bevo would know Clarkson's development approach, and system extremely well, so what does this tell us?

a. He hasn't got the right group of players (as yet) to deliver this style of high efficiency game; Recruitment / list management issue and Bevo needs more time to build the list.
b. He hasn't got the necessary support behind him in his coaching group to develop, and instigate it; Development issue.
c. He doesn't rate Clarkson's methodology over the manic, high pressure at the contest approach that we were successful with last season but has fallen short with this season (Highly unlikely).
d. Clarkson and Graham Wright are simply so brilliant at identifying such talent, and then to develop it consistently over so many years, that they are peerless.
e. Or a mixture of the above

For mine it is primarily 'A', much of which Bevo has inherited, with numerous culprits such as Dahlhaus, Hunter, Wallis, Smith, Jong, Picken, Honeychurch and Macrae to name a few. MBoyd gets off. Whilst Macrae, Dahlhaus, Hunter and Picken bring other solid attributes, their kicking disposal, particularly under pressure entering the forward 50, is sub standard and not what we would expect from a Clarkson lead starting 22. Fortunately, it appears like the tide has started to turn with more promising ball users entering our midst in Dale, McLean, Daniel, Williams, Young, Lipinski, English and even young Roarke.

Moving forward, we cannot continue to carry so many poor users. 2016 was sublime but it is now long gone. Yes, invest in better coaches and programs to bring some positive effect to lift our kicking efficiency but we should be open to moving on 2 of those perennial poor users, whether with or without currency, to either draft or trade up for a higher level of kicking efficiency. Of the list above only Macrae gets a pass given his upside in so many other facets, and possibly Hunter who I'm hoping may yet gain from some better development.

[FrediKanoute]

In any other year 15 wins would have had us top 4 and dropping a game late in the season stopped us from having 16 wins.
7th rated us poorly, we were certainly a top 4 side or at worst a top 5 side. 7th was just a number.
I don't agree if you are implying we sort of fluked it from 7th. whatever way I look at it we should not have dropped like we have.

The post season is another matter, hopefully lessons have been learned.

Not fluking it, but it was a mighty, mighty effort - 4 cut throat games; 2 interstate. In 2016 the gap between the top 8 and the rest was large - in 2017 its not - the teams ranked 14 through 9 have improved. Essendon has a full compliment of players. We may well have been a top 4 side in 2016 who were unlucky to finish in 7th, but there have been many teams who should have been top 4 that finished outside of this and still couldn't do what our guys did - we peaked physically and mentally at the right time and rode a wave.

To me you look at 2016 as a whole - and for much of he season we were pushing hard. We rode a lot of emotion and physically extracted about as much as we possibly good. Not much was left on the park at the end. I am not surprised we have tailed off this year - we simply couldn't with the same group of players expect to repeat last years efforts on less preseason.

Missing the finals will from a group perspective be the best thing that happens to these guys - it will prove its not easy - it wont just happen.

[GVGjr]

Not fluking it, but it was a mighty, mighty effort - 4 cut throat games; 2 interstate. In 2016 the gap between the top 8 and the rest was large - in 2017 its not - the teams ranked 14 through 9 have improved. Essendon has a full compliment of players. We may well have been a top 4 side in 2016 who were unlucky to finish in 7th, but there have been many teams who should have been top 4 that finished outside of this and still couldn't do what our guys did - we peaked physically and mentally at the right time and rode a wave.

To me you look at 2016 as a whole - and for much of he season we were pushing hard. We rode a lot of emotion and physically extracted about as much as we possibly good. Not much was left on the park at the end. I am not surprised we have tailed off this year - we simply couldn't with the same group of players expect to repeat last years efforts on less preseason.

Missing the finals will from a group perspective be the best thing that happens to these guys - it will prove its not easy - it wont just happen.

I don't accept the premise that we worked hard and rode emotion in 2016 and had nothing left in the tank. If anything it should have been a spur for the players that didn't make the GF team and it should have inspired those premiership players to go as hard as they could again. I fully accept that going back to back is a difficult and rare occurrence but we should have been significantly more competitive this year.

In 2016 we were a very good team that peaked in the finals series and in 2017 we just struggled for the vast majority of it.
We now need to work out if we can get more out of the players we have for 2018 or if we need to trade to fill a few holes.

[KT31]

Saints assistant

Cheers BAD, do you know if he is contracted or obtainable ?

[Mofra]

Williams worries me. I don't think his decision making is all that good. Its not instinctive. Happy to give him time though as he is still young. Personally I would prefer Webb in his role - better kick, good mark and makes better decisions.
I'm worried about Webb - doesn't seem to find the ball around the ground as well and he certainly isn't quick.
We may bite the bullet and give him a full pre-season off the HB line but it's difficult as he's shown he can dominate in the centre at VFL level but has shown virtually nothing in the middle at AFL level.

[Mofra]

Cheers BAD, do you know if he is contracted or obtainable ?
Sandringham senior coach - pretty sure he has one more year on his contract

[bornadog]

Sandringham senior coach - pretty sure he has one more year on his contract

Isn't Sandringham also aligned to the Saints?

[always right]

Williams worries me. I don't think his decision making is all that good. Its not instinctive. Happy to give him time though as he is still young. Personally I would prefer Webb in his role - better kick, good mark and makes better decisions.

Clay.....3 knee reco's means that he is an injury away from finishing up. I don't think we will delist him, but with list space becoming an ever more prescious commodity another season like this and I think he will be moved on.
Agree - re poor season. Talk of a major cull is nonsence. Maybe if the 2015/6 draftees had stepped up to dominate, but they haven't
Disagree that Williams and Collins should be seen as vulnerable. I can see Williams following the Toby McLean path into the midfield and Collins appears to be suffering from the meteoric rise of Lewis Young as if Young's rise is somehow the norm. Collins has another two years IMO before we should start judging him.

[AndrewP6]

Isn't Sandringham also aligned to the Saints?

Yep they are.

[always right]

Seems we are a long way off being a destination club.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-08-21/exclusive-dogs-told-theyre-out-of-jake-lever-hunt

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Seems we are a long way off being a destination club.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-08-21/exclusive-dogs-told-theyre-out-of-jake-lever-hunt

When we won the flag and couldn't attract anyone of note, I knew we weren't a destination club.

Disappointing.

[bornadog]

Seems we are a long way off being a destination club.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-08-21/exclusive-dogs-told-theyre-out-of-jake-lever-hunt

Well if that is how he feels he can get stuffed.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR0QE0fZwoPPQLjsNP1CCzrHST7jEuvUvf1fQN5o8F hUMeOsj7kww

[always right]

We appear to only be capable of attracting players in the latter stages of their career.

[GVGjr]

Seems we are a long way off being a destination club.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-08-21/exclusive-dogs-told-theyre-out-of-jake-lever-hunt

I mentioned this the other day. We were running 3rd in a 3 horse race.
We might still not be out of it though but it's unlikely at the moment. Things can change

[jeemak]

Perhaps we're only offering good money rather than stupid money.

[Webby]

Apart from Treloar (which was murky!) how many really young gun players end up at other clubs?

For me, it's only those who overpay.

We did well to get Hamling. I say we go down that route agai and also go to the draft. There's a salary cap in play, so every time you pay big dollars, something is squeezed elsewhere on the list.

A few clubs will be rebuilding at the end of this season, so opportunities will come up. This Lever news is a blessing in disguise. I only wish Hurley had let us know so soon last year!

Geelong and Hawthorn will need to trade into the draft and West Coast will be offloading. GWS will cop cap pressure.
Another interesting one is Freo.. They're potentially trading in order to rebuild...

With no finals to occupy our time, we should have a good run at some players. If not, Dalrymple is in pretty good form..

[chef]

Murphy, Boyd, Hamilton and Prudden are definitely outs.

I'd look to trade Redpath too.

And then just focus on the draft and keeping the rest of the list together. We are still young and this season though a write off could be a blessing in disguise.

[bornadog]

Murphy, Boyd, Hamilton and Prudden are definitely outs.

I'd look to trade Redpath too.

And then just focus on the draft and keeping the rest of the list together. We are still young and this season though a write off could be a blessing in disguise.

Prudden is a Rookie, but yeah, I think he should be delisted.

[merantau]

We have a ruckman of, as yet, unfulfilled promise in Tom Campbell. It would be a treat if he could put a whole year together.
Collins must be kept. Guys his size and age are hard to come by.
English will get stronger and bigger if he works at it He should be monitored very carefully in the gym. He has a lot of work to do and the last thing he needs is a gym based injury to set him back.
I'm unsure about Webb. He looked really good in his first game but has not had much of a run.

Honeychurch could have had a pretty successful return to the side HAD HE KICKED STRAIGHT. He was really good and quite ordinary in the few games he had.
Williams will be a player. He takes the game on and can break lines. Definite keeper.

Stringer should play on the ball and take a break at half forward. He needs a big pre-season of endurance work. He has the pace off the mark and the strength to break tackles - he needs the stamina to make repeat efforts for four quarters.
Clay Smith is a worry because he has lost pace and closing speed. But I won't write him off. Any bloke who's still going around after 3 knee re-cos has serious spirit and work ethic.
Fletcher Roberts is a fairly one dimensional dour defender who has not developed his game this year. But with our injury prone defenders we need him as back up maybe.
I thought Biggs finished off the year pretty well.
Calls for a major cull are misplaced. Dickson is still our most reliable goal kicker. He will be much better next year.

[always right]

Agree re Stringer. His only hope is to develop the tank to play big minutes in the midfield.

If he can do this he will be a regular match winner. If he remains mainly a forward I don't think he will get much better.

[Bullies]

People are saying to trade Stringer but that will leave us with not much up forward if we do. Need to be careful there. Understand he needs to get fitter and switched on but who will kick goals? Dickson is cooked/Cloke can't take a grab/our small forwards are not goal kickers/Redpath has had his chances and I am sure we will be saying the same thing about him next year/Boyd you will find will be our number 1 ruckman so will only pinch hit. If we get rid of Stringer we need a replacement. Lipinski and Mclean are probably 2 who know where the goals are and are genuine goal kickers but Mclean is playing mid field. As much he is frustrating we don't have many match winners and Stringer is when he is on.

[1eyedog]

Ironically I wouldn't think the Saints are a great kicking side.

Precisely why he's there.