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View Full Version : Comparing club recruitment - WB & WCE.



The Bulldogs Bite
16-01-2008, 11:18 PM
I began to think of West Coast and the list they have this year after the loss of Judd & Cousins, wondering how they'd cope with such losses - not just this year, but for the next three or four years. In 2005, The Eagles forward line was often criticised for not having any quality KPF's. They attempted to throw Gardiner down there in the Grand Final but he failed miserably. If you said back then that by the end of 2007 The Eagles also would be without Judd & Cousins, you'd predict them to have a huge downslide.

Three years on, they've done pretty well. In fact - they've done very, very well. Their midfield may not be as explosive as it once was, but their drafting was second to none last year. They've found a gem in Priddis whilst picking up a few potential guns in the draft. Judd/Cousins are big losses - make no mistake about it - but through their recruiting and player development, I would argue they have turned it around quickly. In another three years time, their midfield is every chance to dominate again.

Back to their old 'problem' - KPF's. They copped a fair bit of flack over not having options, but again - three years on and they've got plenty. Lynch & Hansen are proven quality players - they're not exactly A graders but they're dangerous players who certainly compliment one another's styles. Hansen is the traditional leading CHF, whilst Lynch is the body-on-body FF. Staker is a decent third tall option too, whilst they've also developed another - Mitch Brown. He looks a talent. If I'm not mistaken they've got another option they picked up from the WAFL & they drafted a young forward in the most recent draft. Three years on and they have a fantastic list to develop & pick from, whilst also (it seems) maintaining a strong midfield.

Why haven't we replicated this?

If we lost West & Cooney, we'd be buggered to oblivion. Over the last ten years we've drafted plenty of midfielders but yet it would arguably be fair to say we're still behind in this area when comparing to West Coast, anyway. Have we recruited too many of the same ilk, or have we picked the wrong players in some instances? West, Cross & Boyd are good players but one of them almost has to sit on the pine, it's a disadvantage at times to play all three as they're similiar in style. They're in & under players with the ability to bring others into the game. Additionally, they've got similiar pace and similiar average foot skills. Whilst Cooney has improved his defensive efforts, we still lack players willing to run both ways. Eagleton & Higgins are prime examples; quality players when they have the ball, they can be deadly, but their defensive game is lacking. Again; have we recruited wrongly in that we've drafted too many players of the same ilk? Cooney & Griffen are probably only our two players that work both ways, and as I said, at times Cooney can be lazy. Our midfield has potential but I feel we still lack something in there.

KPF's have been our major problem over the past decade. Why wasn't/hasn't this been addressed much earlier? West Coast found a problem and sought to fix it. They've got plenty of options, two of which helped win them a GF whilst they've got a couple youngsters who look v. talented. Have we elected to go with quick fixes too much? (Cook, Minton-Connell, Bartlett, Hunter, James, Rawlings etc.) and we've drafted poorly (Bowden, Wells, Wiggins, Walsh etc.)

Who's to blame?

For mine, I think Clayton has taken a few 'safer' bets by siding with midfielders over KPF's. A lot of this rests on Wallet's shoulders of course, as his plan was to build a team of speedy midfielders. Naturally Clayton's picked up a few good ones, but considering how many we've had over the years, our midfield still isn't where it should be. He's been reluctant to take talls with the first pick (apart from the last two years when our needs have become bleedingly obvious) and when he has, it's been a failure (Walsh). It appears as though he's been happier to take later punts on talls. So my question is, why haven't we been able to replicate West Coast? Their list management is superb. They identify problems and fix them immediately. If they can do it, why can't we? We've had the same problems for years and yet The Eagles fixed there's in half the time - or less.

It has been pleasing to see that we've fixed up the backline though. That's been a problem for quite a while and I think we've done well. Harris, Morris, Williams & Everitt have all been great picks/finds, and we'll further reap the rewards for this. I just can't understand how we've ignored a problem that has haunted us for a long time. Meanwhile, clubs like Hawthorn, WCE, St. Kilda & even Geelong have found themselves plenty of options and yet have still been able to find quality midfielders to - on most ocassions - defy ours.

Anyhow, just wanted to get some general feedback and thoughts on this subject as I believe it's interesting to compare club recruitment & management. We've been poor in this area whilst a number of other clubs have done really well - I'm curious as to exactly why, and how we let it get to such a state.

LostDoggy
17-01-2008, 09:39 AM
Sorry I was being silly.

mjp
17-01-2008, 11:26 AM
Nice thread TBB...I guess I really don't know exactly how to respond apart from saying that I agree, West Coast have recruited better than us.

Don't underestimate their use of the rookie list to pick up Cox, Priddis, Graham etc which is something we couldn't afford (financially) to do to boost their list and assist in recruiting decisions.

The Coon Dog
17-01-2008, 11:54 AM
Don't underestimate their use of the rookie list to pick up Cox, Priddis, Graham etc which is something we couldn't afford (financially) to do to boost their list and assist in recruiting decisions.

Mike, is it a conspiracy theory by some clubs in the east to suggest WCE 'hide' rookies away in the local comp so other teams don't get a handle on them or does it really occur?

LostDoggy
17-01-2008, 12:23 PM
Mike, is it a conspiracy theory by some clubs in the east to suggest WCE 'hide' rookies away in the local comp so other teams don't get a handle on them or does it really occur?

Im sure every club hides away a kid here and there. Clayton did it last draft didnt he? Judd, Selwood, Waters, Braun ,Hurn, Hansen, Wirrapanda, Butler,Rosa,Brown Staker etc are all quality players from the east coast. Its a combination of $$$$, quality coaching and a good recruiting team.

mjp
17-01-2008, 12:33 PM
Mike, is it a conspiracy theory by some clubs in the east to suggest WCE 'hide' rookies away in the local comp so other teams don't get a handle on them or does it really occur?

Priddis was a dominant WAFL mid who everyone thought was too slow, Cox a gangly ruckman, Graham a developing tall who could mark...

I think it is pure fantasy to say they 'hide them away'. It is state level footy, so whilst they might be 'hidden' from clubs struggling for resources (like us), they would not be hidden from the Collingwoods of the world. And if the players aren't playing well, the WAFL clubs wont play them - there is no alignment, and Dockers and Eagles players play alongside one another at WAFL level - and each of the WAFL clubs is trying to win.

For this reason, I still say that the whole 'we need to dictate where our players play in the VFL' just smacks of whining. If the players play well, they will play in the seniors.

What West Coast do have is an army of full time development coaches to help fast track them into the seniors.

On another note, I am convinced all of the 'rivalry' in the Western Derbies comes from the players knowing each other so well...

Sockeye Salmon
17-01-2008, 01:02 PM
Cox was playing for Dampier or somewhere when they picked him up. It's a fair bet we don't have too many recruiters up there.

mjp
17-01-2008, 01:04 PM
Cox was playing for Dampier or somewhere when they picked him up. It's a fair bet we don't have too many recruiters up there.

East Perth Colts.

LostDoggy
17-01-2008, 01:10 PM
East Perth Colts.


He is from Dampier, a port 15mins from Karratha

always right
17-01-2008, 01:56 PM
I'm in general agreement with your well constructed post. On Priddis however, I'm not sold. Yes he's been good so far but he's going to get greater attention this year with Cousins and Judd gone. Let's see if he's simply been under the radar with most clubs who would have put their planning into a lot of other players before Priddis.

bornadog
17-01-2008, 02:22 PM
I'm in general agreement with your well constructed post. On Priddis however, I'm not sold. Yes he's been good so far but he's going to get greater attention this year with Cousins and Judd gone. Let's see if he's simply been under the radar with most clubs who would have put their planning into a lot of other players before Priddis.

He also has the added advatange that Cox thumps the ball down his throat, makes a difference with a good tap ruckman.

hujsh
17-01-2008, 03:38 PM
They also seem to get their kids bulked up rather quickly eg Hurn

mjp
17-01-2008, 03:57 PM
They also seem to get their kids bulked up rather quickly eg Hurn

Whoooo. Hurn was a monster when they picked him. As is Ebert.

West Coast have basically picked the 'best performed junior' with their first round pick for the last few years (see Chris Masten example), whereas other clubs tend to 'roll the dice' a bit more on perceived talent.

Hurn fell down the draft order - projected by many as a top 3 pick - primarily because of concerns about his body shape and the fact that he was an 'early maturer'. West Coast just sat there and picked him (and did the same this year with Ebert).

GVGjr
17-01-2008, 06:58 PM
Whoooo. Hurn was a monster when they picked him. As is Ebert.

West Coast have basically picked the 'best performed junior' with their first round pick for the last few years (see Chris Masten example), whereas other clubs tend to 'roll the dice' a bit more on perceived talent.

Hurn fell down the draft order - projected by many as a top 3 pick - primarily because of concerns about his body shape and the fact that he was an 'early maturer'. West Coast just sat there and picked him (and did the same this year with Ebert).

They also don't place as high an emphasis on pace as what we do. I think Hurn slipped for the reasons you mentioned but also he wasn't perceived as being quick enough.

The Eagles stick to the philosphy that the early picks can't be slow but they also don't have to possess blistering pace. They just have to be able to win the ball and use it well.
I suppose when you had Judd, Cousins and Kerr, the team was already quick so just adding ball winners and guys strong in a contest worked well for them.

We often draft for the potential a player can bring us 3 or 4 years down the track whereas the Eagles will take some players that can contribute sooner rather than later.

It's obviously worked well for them but with Judd and Cousins gone it might be a good season to see how good that plan is without the two midfield stars.

Go_Dogs
18-01-2008, 10:22 AM
Whoooo. Hurn was a monster when they picked him. As is Ebert.

West Coast have basically picked the 'best performed junior' with their first round pick for the last few years (see Chris Masten example), whereas other clubs tend to 'roll the dice' a bit more on perceived talent.

Hurn fell down the draft order - projected by many as a top 3 pick - primarily because of concerns about his body shape and the fact that he was an 'early maturer'. West Coast just sat there and picked him (and did the same this year with Ebert).

Exactly right, they just pick pure footballers who can play the game, have a bit of size and the rest seems to fall into place. It certainly seems a safer bet than some of the other selections we see these days where kids are picked up purely on potential, but I would also argue that over the last few years, drafting in general has come back to a more pure footballer type, rather than just exceptional athletes who can play a bit. Selections like Everitt, Higgins, Griffen, Ward etc are all pure footballers first, athletes second.

FWIW, I've been very happy with our recruiting recently, in particular the last 2 years, and think we are going about it the right way. Hopefully over the next few years we really see the results of this.

Dry Rot
18-01-2008, 11:46 PM
Very good OP and responses.

Re rookies, didn't they have a few each year while we only had one?

Re comparing recruitment generally since say 2001, IIRC we have only made the finals once and had some pretty miserable finishes including a spoon. We have had much better picks than them but pissed some of them against the wall with Rawlings, Walsh, Koops etc.

Have seen WCE's young KPP Brown in action - he will be pretty good IMHO.

Do we have the worst record for drafting young tall forwards over the past 10 years? I suppose the Dees and Tigers don't have to show either, ditto Swans.

hujsh
19-01-2008, 02:38 AM
Do we have the worst record for drafting young tall forwards over the past 10 years? I suppose the Dees and Tigers don't have to show either, ditto Swans.

I think Melb have a few in the works while Riewolt and Schultz (excuse the spelling) could be OK. Grundy looked impressive in 06 when he replaced Davis for a while. Our only recognized possible forward by people outside the club would probably be Tiller.

dog town
19-01-2008, 10:35 AM
West Coast are rarely sucked in by hype. How often do they pick up guys who have been late sliders in the draft order? They are forever picking up guys who were highly rated but slipped in the pecking order just before the draft. If a guy can play they just pick him. Not many crystal balling type selections from the eagles.

mjp
19-01-2008, 01:56 PM
He is from Dampier, a port 15mins from Karratha

Yes, he is from Dampier, and being from WA I know where it is.

I also know he played a year of footy at East Perth Colts before being rookie listed by West Coast. I dont even need to look this up - it would have been either the 1999 or 2000 AFL seasons. He then spent a year or so playing league and reserves for East Perth, a couple of years backing up Gardner etc etc...

To suggest he was plucked from Dampier is simply not true.

LostDoggy
19-01-2008, 03:42 PM
In the end the difference between us and them is not the recruiting as much as the drug culture they have and we possibly don't.

The Underdog
20-01-2008, 07:38 AM
In the end the difference between us and them is not the recruiting as much as the drug culture they have and we possibly don't.

It's improved them in a team bonding way? Having a common hobby makes them closer?
I don't get it. You're not suggesting they're all on performance enhancers are you?

LostDoggy
20-01-2008, 08:39 AM
It's improved them in a team bonding way? Having a common hobby makes them closer?
I don't get it. You're not suggesting they're all on performance enhancers are you?
Yes. Gone through that already. I think as do some medical experts that even recreational drugs can enhance performance.
The 2006 premeirship is a tainted. They had known drug offender and others strongly suspected playing.

The Underdog
20-01-2008, 10:34 AM
Yes. Gone through that already. I think as do some medical experts that even recreational drugs can enhance performance.
The 2006 premeirship is a tainted. They had known drug offender and others strongly suspected playing.

What of certain players, and one in particular who I've heard many stories about from our club, who competed pre drug testing, but may have used certain substances recreationally. Are their achievements tarnished? Or were they just boys being boys because it wasn't a story then?

LostDoggy
20-01-2008, 11:06 AM
What of certain players, and one in particular who I've heard many stories about from our club, who competed pre drug testing, but may have used certain substances recreationally. Are their achievements tarnished? Or were they just boys being boys because it wasn't a story then?

Firstly we didn't achieve a premiership. If we did it with a number of suspects when others were clean then yes its tarnished.
1 one player is lot differnet to a club where its a culture. I don't know of story of the player at our club but if its true then he should be punished.

Far to many stories to think its just 1 player at WC.
The club knew about Cousins long before we did and are up to there necks in it.
Their record is tarnished in my eyes and the AFL have turned a blind eye because they know it goes a lot deeper. The AFL drug testing is a joke. How many players are tested, for what, when and how often?