Is this what I think it is?

[bulldogtragic]

Is everything we've heard to date pointing towards a diagnosis of a mini re-build?

We are staring down the retirement of our two (now) former captains from the HB line. Possibly losing from the forward line are Crameri, Stringer and Cloke (if the rumours were true). Then culling Hamilton & Honeychurch. At best Morris & Cloke if he plays on has just one year.

That's possibly as many as 1,300 games experience gone in 12 months, who when fit and in form were best 22 (ex. H & HC). I know injuries lessened their roles this year, which also aligns with our drop off. But are we just re-setting things, or is this now a mini re-build to relaunch the dynasty dream? And now a big effort between Dal & JMac to either trade or draft ourselves back up.

[Becc]

Interesting theory

[ledge]

I believe it was this year if you look at the age of the players coming in.
Especially the backline

[1eyedog]

Is everything we've heard to date pointing towards a diagnosis of a mini re-build?

We are staring down the retirement of our two (now) former captains from the HB line. Possibly losing from the forward line are Crameri, Stringer and Cloke (if the rumours were true). Then culling Hamilton & Honeychurch. At best Morris & Cloke if he plays on has just one year.

That's possibly as many as 1,300 games experience gone in 12 months, who when fit and in form were best 22 (ex. H & HC). I know injuries lessened their roles this year, which also aligns with our drop off. But are we just re-setting things, or is this now a mini re-build to relaunch the dynasty dream? And now a big effort between Dal & JMac to either trade or draft ourselves back up.

No it's a re-jig. The bulk of our Premiership heroes were young guns, only Moz and Boyd over 30 and Picko approaching that mark. The balance of the squad are kids really. We are moving on players surplus to needs and / or undertaking a forced clean up of some mess that has been spilt towards the latter half of the year. I only expect possibly two new faces playing senior games next year in Trengove and possibly one other and I fully expect to make the 8.

[GVGjr]

Is everything we've heard to date pointing towards a diagnosis of a mini re-build?

We are staring down the retirement of our two (now) former captains from the HB line. Possibly losing from the forward line are Crameri, Stringer and Cloke (if the rumours were true). Then culling Hamilton & Honeychurch. At best Morris & Cloke if he plays on has just one year.

That's possibly as many as 1,300 games experience gone in 12 months, who when fit and in form were best 22 (ex. H & HC). I know injuries lessened their roles this year, which also aligns with our drop off. But are we just re-setting things, or is this now a mini re-build to relaunch the dynasty dream? And now a big effort between Dal & JMac to either trade or draft ourselves back up.

BT, thanks for starting a very good and hopefully a thought provoking thread. We didn't do well during last years trade period and then drafted for the future (as you probably should) at the National and Preseason drafts so yes the list needs some sort of a refresh.

As you have pointed out we have Stringer, Crameri, Cloke and Honeychurch possibly all waiting in the departure lounge and we've lost a wealth of experience in Murphy and M.Boyd and then Prudden and Hamilton as players that never quite reached their potential. There must also be a question mark on Roarke Smith. Perhaps we could delist and re-rookie him.

We've been strongly linked to versatile tall Jackson Trengove who should be a good addition and I suspect we could look to a couple of other players with a bit experience.

So yes we need to refresh the playing list but the hard question to answer is if we intend to do it by a) chasing players with some experience (the likes of Menzel, Rockcliff and Martin) as a quick fix or b) with some of the players with not a lot of senior experience (Francis or Schache) that help us next season but more down the future or c) if we just go all in for the draft and play the longer game.

We might even do a bit of all 3.

The next couple of weeks will be a fascinating time for us and very different to how we fronted up to trade period last year where we were clearly dizzy and contented after winning 2 flags.
This time we will have a clear head and hopefully a solid plan on how we want to enter the 2018 season.

[bulldogtragic]

Interesting you mention Menzel. I'm still concerned over his knees, but one poster said he's only been offered a one year deal on less money. Stevo says Geelong are after Crameri on a two year deal. If the club were happy with his knees, I wonder if that's just a straight swap if we identify the need for a medium forward and are dealing with Geelong.

At least if the bigger names leave, there's a lot of salary cap to make good decision with.

What's the difference with a 'mini rebuild', 're-jig' and 'refresh'? :D

[Remi Moses]

Menzel would be a decent addition . I can see value in a bit of all three

[GVGjr]

Interesting you mention Menzel. I'm still concerned over his knees, but one poster said he's only been offered a one year deal on less money. Stevo says Geelong are after Crameri on a two year deal. If the club were happy with his knees, I wonder if that's just a straight swap if we identify the need for a medium forward and are dealing with Geelong.

At least if the bigger names leave, there's a lot of salary cap to make good decision with.

What's the difference with a 'mini rebuild', 're-jig' and 'refresh'? :D

I mentioned Menzel because he is a noted goal kicker and we have some massive questions in that area (Cloke, Dickson, Crameri and Stringer) plus he might come into play if Geelong get very active in their chase for Stringer.

I think using the word rebuild is something clubs like ours stay away from, using refresh (to me) means we have the talent on the playing list and just need to compliment with some astute additions.

It's all just a marketing play on words though :)

[Twodogs]

What's the difference with a 'mini rebuild', 're-jig' and 'refresh'? :D


Ask David Smorgon.

[bulldogtragic]

Ask David Smorgon.

Zing. Touché TD, touché.

[Twodogs]

Zing. Touché TD, touché.

He had quite a journey didn't he? From the "anything other than a Grand Final would be a failure" comment in 2011 to "it's a refresh" to "OK it's a rebuild" in 2012 to standing out on the MCG with an ecstatic look on GF day in 2016.

Footy is a funny game.

[FrediKanoute]

It's refresh. We've eeked good mileage out of Boyd and Murphy; Crammers is done and we assess his injury to be chronic and unlikely to improve; Pride, Hamilton and Honeychurch are surplus for a variety of reasons, but mainly because we have better players in their positions. Stringer is the real dilemma. At fit, focused Stringer is the complete package....Gary Albert/Wayne Carey like in his ability to change a game! All these guys come with issues and challenges - the trick is to harness this for as long as possible before it becomes destructive

[MrMahatma]

I think the logic stands. We jagged a flag early and the forward line certainly is makeshift, along with a few other parts of the ground. We have the talent in the core of our team to be a threat but still need some more talent.

Stringer moving on is a shock and we'll struggle to replace that level of talent IMO, but it is what it is.

[GVGjr]

I think the logic stands. We jagged a flag early and the forward line certainly is makeshift, along with a few other parts of the ground. We have the talent in the core of our team to be a threat but still need some more talent.

Stringer moving on is a shock and we'll struggle to replace that level of talent IMO, but it is what it is.

Jagged a flag early? How do you figure?

[1eyedog]

I really like Menzel. I think he's got a few tricks and if we are confident his keens can hold up I would look at him very closely. That said I'm not sure who I prefer out of him and Crameri.

[MrMahatma]

Jagged a flag early? How do you figure?

You thought we were ready for a flag last year?

I figure we got one "early" based on the fact that we'd played finals once in the past handful of years, that we hadn't won a final for a long time, that we had a young list and that we had a horror draw for that finals series. I'm not suggesting it was undeserved, but that realistically, 2019+ were our years.

[GVGjr]

You thought we were ready for a flag last year?

I figure we got one "early" based on the fact that we'd played finals once in the past handful of years, that we hadn't won a final for a long time, that we had a young list and that we had a horror draw for that finals series. I'm not suggesting it was undeserved, but that realistically, 2019+ were our years.

We were very unlucky in 2015 given we played Adelaide on the MCG rather than Etihad in a final with a leaked game plan and still ran them to a kick. I think we could have caused another upset had we got through that game
We were a top 4 side in 2016 and were just a bit unlucky with the draw that year playing the likes of Carlton and a weakened Essendon just once. We then dropped a game late in the year that would have given us 16 wins during the home and away season. I don't buy some of the comments I hear that we just got on a roll at the right time. We were genuine top 4 contenders who got the job done

Back to the jagged one early comments, even if we got one early it implies that we are close or close to being due again. When will that be? To me we have to now get back into being a top 8 side again and at the moment there appears to be no quick fix

[Remi Moses]

I think the general perception was that we won a year or two early . This year proves how you have to always look to getting better .

[GVGjr]

I think the general perception was that we won a year or two early . This year proves how you have to always look to getting better .

So after a 62 year wait the consensus is we won one early. When people say we won one early it implies we are still in contention and are set-up for a sustained period yet 12 months after we won it we collapsed like a deck chair.

I think we meekly handed back the advantage we had and we now don't now where we are positioned. Based on where we are, we certainly didn't win one early.

[Remi Moses]

So after a 62 year wait the consensus is we won one early. When people say we won one early it implies we are still in contention and are set-up for a sustained period yet 12 months after we won it we collapsed like a deck chair.

I think we meekly handed back the advantage we had and we now don't now where we are positioned. Based on where we are, we certainly didn't win one early.

True, but would say 12 months ago Richmond would be in contention ? Had 3 years of finals, a stinker and now back in contention .
Lot can change in 12 months

[GVGjr]

True, but would say 12 months ago Richmond would be in contention ? Had 3 years of finals, a stinker and now back in contention .
Lot can change in 12 months

But if they win it how could anyone say they won it early? What are they comparing it to?

If they win it I can't see why it would be regarded as a fluke or that they jagged one, they have been a good team all season and if they win it that is the reason why.

[Remi Moses]

I guess with us it was our list demographic . One of Our issues was attitude this year , and I don't think that could be argued against .
Not saying for a moment we don't have list issues ( even the top 4 this year has) just putting it out there that a lot can change in 12 months .

[ledge]

Don't underestimate Young, he will be a freak , mark my words . Or as they say now " take it to the bank"

[1eyedog]

But if they win it how could anyone say they won it early? What are they comparing it to?

If they win it I can't see why it would be regarded as a fluke or that they jagged one, they have been a good team all season and if they win it that is the reason why.

Yeah I don't understand the we won one early line. We may not win one for another 25 years. It's hard to win won, you win it you've earned it.

[Twodogs]

We were very unlucky in 2015 given we played Adelaide on the MCG rather than Etihad in a final with a leaked game plan and still ran them to a kick. I think we could have caused another upset had we got through that game
We were a top 4 side in 2016 and were just a bit unlucky with the draw that year playing the likes of Carlton and a weakened Essendon just once. We then dropped a game late in the year that would have given us 16 wins during the home and away season. I don't buy some of the comments I hear that we just got on a roll at the right time. We were genuine top 4 contenders who got the job done

Back to the jagged one early comments, even if we got one early it implies that we are close or close to being due again. When will that be? To me we have to now get back into being a top 8 side again and at the moment there appears to be no quick fix

At least we know that every year that we do contend that this group can go all the way. There is no luxury of saying "oh well they will need a finals series to work out what finals are like."

[hujsh]

Yeah I don't understand the we won one early line. We may not win one for another 25 years. It's hard to win won, you win it you've earned it.

I don't get the confusion. With the composition of our list most people would have expected it'd be 2-3 years until the majority of our good players were mature/in their prime at which point we'd be best placed to win a premiership. Why is this a controversial or demeaning idea? If anything it's a compliment to the players that they were able to do what they did.

[SonofScray]

I don't get the confusion. With the composition of our list most people would have expected it'd be 2-3 years until the majority of our good players were mature/in their prime at which point we'd be best placed to win a premiership. Why is this a controversial or demeaning idea? If anything it's a compliment to the players that they were able to do what they did.
On face value makes sense. But it feels too limiting for mine. If we are content with windows and five year plans etc you miss the opportunities in the present. 15/16 we were good enough on our day, 15 we couldn't string together enough days, 16 we did and a flag wagged. There is enough talent in the list to hold the club's 'no ceiling' narrative above the more popular development/future focus.

[hujsh]

On face value makes sense. But it feels too limiting for mine. If we are content with windows and five year plans etc you miss the opportunities in the present. 15/16 we were good enough on our day, 15 we couldn't string together enough days, 16 we did and a flag wagged. There is enough talent in the list to hold the club's 'no ceiling' narrative above the more popular development/future focus.

Of course you don't approach the actual season that way but most of the group hadn't even won a final yet. To come in and win 4 was a massive out of the box achievement that no one could have expected.