The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018

[bulldogtragic]

Time stops for no one. Next off-season firms as a crucial year. So basic forward looking:

Retiring Candidates based on age (obviously form & fitness are more important than dob): Morris & Cloke (2)

Candidates needing a strong year: Collins, Smith, Campbell (3)

Trading Candidates: With several clubs inquiring on Jong this trade period, off an ACL, if he has a strong year those clubs might be back. But with a healthy salary cap, hopefully that's not a problem. (1)

Free Agent Status: Roughead, Dahl, Libba, Wallis, Morris (5)

[whythelongface]

I would include Lukas Webb as a likely trading candidate. Whilst he has shown promise there are a number of players ahead of him in development around his age bracket, particularly those from the same draft. He needs a big year to maintain his spot on the list.

[Twodogs]

It's one of those years where we basically know who we will be delisting at season's end.

Campbell, Smith, Morris, Cloke would be pretty close to certain.

[BulldogBelle]

Here is my take:

Trade or delist:
1. Roarke Smith - Injury prone. His elite leap is not enough.
2. Brad Lynch - has never impressed.
3. Mitch Honeychurch - close but just falls short.

Trade
4. Fletcher Roberts - lacks balance, looks for easy way out of defence by kicking across the ground.
5. Lucas Webb - Could quite possibly make it, but may still have some trade value.

Possible outs.
6. Suckling
7. Crameri
8. Mullenger-McHugh
9. Greene
10. Redpath

We need to turn a few more players over to try to get some gems.

[bulldogtragic]

So Cloke has already gone, a year early. The drafting of Naughton I think means we move two KPDs on:

1. Morris retires
2. Roberts traded

Possibles/Need an impressive 2018:

3. Clay Smith
4. Mitch Honeychurch
5. Tom Campbell
6. Matt Suckling (if he wants a shot at punting in the NFL)

7. Possible trade out request

Leaving all rookies aside.

[Remi Moses]

I think you could add Kieran Collins to that list .He needs a big season

[bulldogtragic]

I think you could add Kieran Collins to that list .He needs a big season

Only his 3rd season in 2018. One which was injury ravaged, and he was always going to take more time. I wouldn't be cutting him unless he has a horrible, horrible year. If he shows even moderate incremental progress he gets an extension for mine.

[GVGjr]

I think you could add Kieran Collins to that list .He needs a big season

Drafted as a 17yo and just 2 years in that seems to be a harsh assessment but you might be right.
In most instances we have to give the bigger boys a bit more time than just 3 seasons.

[hujsh]

If he goes backwards then sure he's a potential delisting.

If he continues to improve it'd be silly to dispose of him so quickly.

[bornadog]

Drafted as a 17yo and just 2 years in that seems to be a harsh assessment but you might be right.
In most instances we have to give the bigger boys a bit more time than just 3 seasons.

He is still 19 years old and about to turn 20 in mid December, which means he will only be 20 for all of next year. I think we give him another year to prove himself after next, unless we feel he just won't make it.

[Bulldog4life]

I think you could add Kieran Collins to that list .He needs a big season

Poor Kieran cannot take a trick. I really hope we retain him as he is still young. If we delist him I wouldn't put it past Collingwood to snap him up. Their assistant coach Brendan Sanderson was a huge wrap for Kieran in the under 18's. Coached him too in the Academy I think.

[FrediKanoute]

4 games in how are people's lists shaping up? For mine:

1. Moz - the option is his and his bodies
2. Smith - 2016 aside, his body has ruined his career and has to be a candidate for delisting - is he best 22?
3. Picken - enough said, a tragedy, but he has the rest of his life to think about
4. Campbell - English's emergence, puts him at the back of a queue that includes Roughie, Boyd, Redders and Bontempeli. Too one dimensional to fit into Bevo's plans
5. Webb - shame, but I think he is in trouble unless he can start to translate VFL form into AFL form.
6. NMM/Greene/R Smith - at least one will get cut if not 2

In danger:

1. Roughie - is there room for him on the field? Will he be sacrificed because of the Boyd deal?;
2. Adams - his nickname has to be sick note as he spends more time in the medical room than on the field;
3. Trengove - how well does he balance the team?

[Mantis]

FK,

What about Roberts, HC & Lynch? Could probably include Collins in the conversation too.

[Axe Man]

Of those you have mentioned Fredi Picken (2019), Webb (2019), Adams (2020) and Trengove (2021?) are contracted. Yes they can still be traded or delisted but it makes it much less likely.

Picken's future should be a decision for him, his family and medical experts to make.

At least 1 of Roughie or Campbell needs to be retained, Rough should be ahead.

As for the names Mantis mentions: Lynch has to upgraded or delisted, would have to do something amazing to be retained. Honeychurch and Collins have to be in the conversation. Roberts is contracted for 2019.

[bornadog]

FK,

What about Roberts, HC & Lynch? Could probably include Collins in the conversation too.

Jong?

[Happy Days]

Good thing we signed Trengove for 4 years so we don't have to worry about when he's getting delisted.

[kruder]

Good thing we signed Trengove for 4 years so we don't have to worry about when he's getting delisted.

Pretty sure its 3 years.

[FrediKanoute]

Putting contracts aside, because lets face it if you need to make room on the list you do:

1. I struggle to see how Trengove fits at the moment - as a defender he's an upgrade on Roberts, but not a fully fit Adams. Naughton in 10 to 15 games will be better and then there is Louis Young;

2. Roberts, yes I'll concede he is a candidate, especially with Trengove at the club. I think though that they wont delist him, especially if Morris retires;

3. Honeychurch - I can't see us right now delisting him. We may trade him if the right opportunity comes along, but he isn't a candidate for delisting, mainly because he plays a role for the team as a pressure player. Hey may be in and out of the team, but I think he'll stay;

4. Lynch - forgot about him - sort of a rookie so to me doesn't matter. I can't see who he would replace in the current team anyway;

5. Jong - is an interesting one. I would listen to offers. At his best, he is still behind Libba, Wally, Smith (when fit). That said I think he will stay. Another who Bevo rates because of his workrate and pressure acts;

6. Collins - will be given time. I know this is a broken record, but they will hold for at least until the end of next season, because his upside is huge

[Happy Days]

Pretty sure its 3 years.

Awesome lucky us.

[Ghost Dog]

Awesome lucky us.
Happy Days, we were pretty lousy the first few games. Maybe he needs a few rounds in the Bulldogs plan B team to find his mojo? Port gave him a glowing farewell speech. At least that probably means he did something right, some of the time. But I'm a bit overly optimistic.

[Happy Days]

Happy Days, we were pretty lousy the first few games. Maybe he needs a few rounds in the Bulldogs plan B team to find his mojo? Port gave him a glowing farewell speech. At least that probably means he did something right, some of the time. But I'm a bit overly optimistic.

Trengove is probably a great dude and of outstanding moraticular fortitude or whatever, but the bare bones of the situation is that we signed a player on the wrong side of 25 who hasn't shown anything on an AFL field in 18 months to a substantial long-term contract and it's proven thus far to be of zero benefit to our side.

[Mofra]

Trengove is probably a great dude and of outstanding moraticular fortitude or whatever, but the bare bones of the situation is that we signed a player on the wrong side of 25 who hasn't shown anything on an AFL field in 18 months to a substantial long-term contract and it's proven thus far to be of zero benefit to our side.
He has been played out of position since the moment we got him.
He made his name as a defender and has hardly played there. Then we went and drafted Aaron Naughton who looks like a gun, Lewis Young seems to have continued his improvement, and made public noise about giving Collins more time.

Cordy is clearly in the best 22 so it's a weird mixed message we've given here especially when you consider we already had Roughy on the list playing a ruck/forward type role ad we have traded for Boyd & Schache.

Roberts must be expendable in this situation and we can barely develop these guys at VFL level with Campbell & NMM also running around.

[Bulldog Joe]

I think we are being a little hasty writing of Trengove at the moment.

He does bring experience and versatility in a big body. We are short on for experience.

I would see how things unfold.

[Sedat]

Have we drafted/traded tall the last couple of years in the knowledge that West and Libba Jnr are coming through next season as F/S prospects? Kellett's son as well?

Our midfield core is still so young compared to other teams but we really need to bolster that area with increased depth from next year onwards - trade and draft preferably. We are a couple of key injuries away from midfield crisis at present.

[Ozza]

As much as I was fairly on the fence about getting Trengove - we've seen him for two games in our colours. One of which he cracked his shoulder at some point. Hardly think its time for his name to come up.

[Twodogs]

I think we are being a little hasty writing of Trengove at the moment.

He does bring experience and versatility in a big body. We are short on for experience.

I would see how things unfold.


As much as I was fairly on the fence about getting Trengove - we've seen him for two games in our colours. One of which he cracked his shoulder at some point. Hardly think its time for his name to come up.


I agree that it's too soon. The guy can play, he gives us versatility, a big body and leadership on the field and they are all attributes we desperately need. I vote that we give him another few games before we retire or delist him.

[bornadog]

Have we drafted/traded tall the last couple of years in the knowledge that West and Libba Jnr are coming through next season as F/S prospects? Kellett's son as well?

Our midfield core is still so young compared to other teams but we really need to bolster that area with increased depth from next year onwards - trade and draft preferably. We are a couple of key injuries away from midfield crisis at present.

With Libba out currently we have been exposed a bit. Guys like Webb, Lipinski, Greene are not developing quick enough. These guys were meant to be future mids.

[Axe Man]

With Libba out currently we have been exposed a bit. Guys like Webb, Lipinski, Greene are not developing quick enough. These guys were meant to be future mids.

Fair enough on Webb but I don't think anyone expected Greene or Lipinski to have developed into midfielders at this early stage. Neither were natural midfielders when drafted, although they could develop into midfielders in time.

[Twodogs]

Bloody Callan Ward, thats who we expected to have in our midfield now! :)

[Axe Man]

Bloody Callan Ward, thats who we expected to have in our midfield now! :)

But then we might not have Macrae. Shaun Higgins would be handy too (used that pick on Webb).

[bornadog]

Fair enough on Webb but I don't think anyone expected Greene or Lipinski to have developed into midfielders at this early stage. Neither were natural midfielders when drafted, although they could develop into midfielders in time.

So we decided to not draft midfielders in the last 3 drafts :eek:

[Axe Man]

So we decided to not draft midfielders in the last 3 drafts :eek:

Dunkley is sort of a midfielder sometimes? Porter? That's about it. We need midfielders galore at the next draft. At least that's generally the easiest type of player to find.

[Twodogs]

Dunkley is sort of a midfielder sometimes? Porter? That's about it. We need midfielders galore at the next draft. At least that's generally the easiest type of player to find.


But we need mids who cankickthebloodyball. They don't grow on trees.

[Sedat]

With Libba out currently we have been exposed a bit. Guys like Webb, Lipinski, Greene are not developing quick enough. These guys were meant to be future mids.
Lipinski and Greene were drafted as mid-sized forwards - they aren't ready for any extended time in the middle, especially at AFL level. Also a bit harsh on players who were only drafted 18 months ago and who both suffered extended injury lay-offs in their only season to date.

Webb is simply not an inside mid, or at least not at AFL level. We definitely need reinforcements in that area of the ground.

[LostDoggy]

At least we have first dibs on one of the best in and under midfielders in this draft; Rhylee West. By all accounts a good user too.

[bornadog]

At least we have first dibs on one of the best in and under midfielders in this draft; Rhylee West. By all accounts a good user too.

I haven't seen him play, but let's hope he has more pace than his old man.

[Webby]

I’d settle for him just having a more penetrating kick than his old man. But an additional yard of pace would be handy... or are we now just getting greeedy!?

[Mofra]

Dunkley is sort of a midfielder sometimes? Porter? That's about it. We need midfielders galore at the next draft. At least that's generally the easiest type of player to find.
We have a dearth of midfielders right now, especially considering guys who were drafted as mids are playing elsewhere (Dunkley, Clay Smith, Bailey Williams, The Bont, etc).

Rhylee West is a free kick to us, our next academy kid (Khamis) seems set to be a Wood type who is a supreme athlete but will take time.
God I hope we manufacture a first round pick before the West bid somehow.

[Twodogs]

Oliver Liberatore was a good ball user at U14 level. :D

[LostDoggy]

I haven't seen him play, but let's hope he has more pace than his old man.

I've only seen a few snippets on You Tube, does look very much like his father in style. By all accounts is very similar, although Knightmare in his player profiles lists acceleration, vision, strong body, contested ball winning, composure and reliable ball use as particular strengths, which sounds promising (reckons his weaknesses are height [180 cm] and lack of x-factor).

For what it's worth, KM rates him at #19 in the draft and reckons his draft range is anywhere from 10-40 - in comparing him to a current day player, KM says the closest comparison is Nathan Jones.

[Twodogs]

I can't stand Nathan Jones. I hope Rhylee turns out just like him.

[Twodogs]

I haven't seen him play, but let's hope he has more pace than his old man.

He runs in his toes just like Scott did.

[Happy Days]

By total chance I struck up a conversation at a wedding a couple of months ago with a guy who is one of the coaches at Calder. He was pretty complimentary of Rhylee's contested work and hands, but said his kicking is choppy and would need work. "Pretty much his dad" was the takeaway I got.

The dude LOVED what he'd seen of Ollie Liberatore though.

[soupman]

I was thinking this last year but is West the reason we traded out of the second round this year?

From all reports he will be a late first round/early second round selection, which presumably would come after our first pick.

Faced with the dilemna of keeping our second round pick and losing it to get him, or trading our second round pick for other stuff and then using a couple of later picks to get West we chose the latter.

Essentially we chose something in 2017, West and no third rounders instead of nothing in 2017, West and third rounders.

Khamis potentially justifies it further btw.

Am I giving us to much credit?

[Axe Man]

I was thinking this last year but is West the reason we traded out of the second round this year?

From all reports he will be a late first round/early second round selection, which presumably would come after our first pick.

Faced with the dilemna of keeping our second round pick and losing it to get him, or trading our second round pick for other stuff and then using a couple of later picks to get West we chose the latter.

Essentially we chose something in 2017, West and no third rounders instead of nothing in 2017, West and third rounders.

Khamis potentially justifies it further btw.

Am I giving us to much credit?

I think there are too many variables and unknowns to be doing something like that 1 year in advance. A players draft range can rise or fall dramatically in the space of a season, not to mention countless other list management issues that will arise over that time. Clubs usually acquire the appropriate picks from other clubs via pick/player swaps in the same trade period.

[Twodogs]

Yeah it's a bit too clever by half for us to think of something like tgat.

Even if we did like Axe Man says there are too many moving parts for it to be a sensible plan. At some stage in the process hopefully we've got someone who going to say "no, we are not going to do that. It's too risky. And it's too clever by half!"

[soupman]

Geez thinking about it the list of players that should be on the way out is huge:

Not taking into account contracts, the following are more likely to be gone than not:
Clay Smith (hasn't been fit for two years, and aside from a month in between wasn't fit for a bout 4 years prior to that)
Campbell (is 5th in line for his only position, although if there is movement with some of those guys he and we still might consider his backup role the best option for both parties)
Roberts (Can't get a game in a short defence that has copped a heap of injuries)
Webb (Coaches seem to rate him but has maybe played two decent AFL games)
Lynch (Can't stop getting injured and nothing amazing when he isn't)
Roarke Smith (Incredibly lucky to still be on a list)
Morris (Old and starting to pick up injuries ore often)
NMM (Hasn't gotten close to playing yet, but is tallish so wil probably get another year)
Picken (For the sake of his health surely retires and I would be hesitant to play him again this year)

While these guys are probably going to hang on atm considering we can't cut half our list but are by no means safe:
Honeychurch (Coaches obviously love him but very limited)
Roughead (If he isn't your first ruck then he is in an awkward spot)
Biggs (Should be safe but an underwhelming year last year and a horrible start to 2018 might leave him vulnerable if we cut deep)
Greene (Has started his career very slowly, but has attributes we need in our forwardline. Would need to make his debut this year you'd think)
Collins (Was always a long term prospect but has moved behind two key defenders now that were recruited after him)
Jong (I think will always be a fringe type but could be tradeable)


And then there are question marks over whether the following have futures with us:
Dahlhaus (out of contract)
Liberatore (out of contract)
Adams (Is quality but may move back to WA, especially if he gets sick of spending time injured away from mates and family)
Dickson (Super injury prone, might be willing to tempt away to a club with spongier floors or something)

That leaves just 24 players not in danger and half of them are players like Naughton, Porter or Lipinski who are too early in their development to be cut.

[Twodogs]

Dalhaus and Liberatore have both indicated they will sign on again and have said they aren't interested in playing at another club as recently as the last month. They are very popular with their teammates and have their most productive years immediately ahead of them. The only way they would jave was if it was initiated by the club and I don't think that will happen. For one thing both players were walked to the edge of the abyss during the last trade period but the club decided to stick with both. It also wouldn't be a popular move with the playing group and the fabric around a playing group is so important. If they aren't happy or are mistrustful they aren't going to play good footy.

[soupman]

Dalhaus and Liberatore have both indicated they will sign on again and have said they aren't interested in playing at another club as recently as the last month. They are very popular with their teammates and have their most productive years immediately ahead of them. The only way they would jave was if it was initiated by the club and I don't think that will happen. For one thing both players were walked to the edge of the abyss during the last trade period but the club decided to stick with both. It also wouldn't be a popular move with the playing group and the fabric around a playing group is so important. If they aren't happy or are mistrustful they aren't going to play good footy.

Well Dahlhaus form has been shite, does that indicate anything?

I just think that until they are signed up they are both vulnerable. Both would be worthy targets for other clubs and if we continue to look like a bottom 4 side and the right deal comes along they may just look at it, despite what our PR manager tells them to say in interviews.

[bulldogtragic]

Well Dahlhaus form has been shite, does that indicate anything?

I just think that until they are signed up they are both vulnerable. Both would be worthy targets for other clubs and if we continue to look like a bottom 4 side and the right deal comes along they may just look at it, despite what our PR manager tells them to say in interviews.

'If' someone offered Dahl $800,000 for 5 years, that makes the compo around Goddard & James Frawley. That being a first rounder.

If we finish low and landed two top 10 picks and Rhylee West cheap in the first rounder as a FS, plus NGA options like Khamis, that would be a monster results to turn a refresh into a great rebuild. So if we finish low and Dahl gets a huge offer, I'd take it happily. We need mids who kick hit targets by foot, so if we got three and Khamis, then losing Dahl doesn't bother me. But there's a lot of 'if's' in this post.

[Mofra]

Not taking into account contracts, the following are more likely to be gone than not:
Clay Smith (hasn't been fit for two years, and aside from a month in between wasn't fit for a bout 4 years prior to that)
Campbell (is 5th in line for his only position, although if there is movement with some of those guys he and we still might consider his backup role the best option for both parties)
Roberts (Can't get a game in a short defence that has copped a heap of injuries)
Webb (Coaches seem to rate him but has maybe played two decent AFL games)
Lynch (Can't stop getting injured and nothing amazing when he isn't)
Roarke Smith (Incredibly lucky to still be on a list)
Morris (Old and starting to pick up injuries ore often)
NMM (Hasn't gotten close to playing yet, but is tallish so wil probably get another year)
Picken (For the sake of his health surely retires and I would be hesitant to play him again this year)
That list is a good starting point, just to add some random musings:

Clay Smith - Looks done. Significant knees issues in a knee that's been reco'ed 3 times. Might pull the pin himself?
Campbell - Bevo doesn't rate him. Could get a back up gig at another club, we should do the right thing by him and trade him to anyone interested for a token pick.
Roberts - It's either him or Collins, I don't think we can carry both. We've made public comments about keeping Collins, poor Sid could be in trouble.
Webb - We'll give him a run of few games (a la Ayce) but I don't see it.
Lynch - Supposedly the best kick on the list but Richards is ahead easily. Rookie anyway but can't see Lynch being retained.
Roarke Smith - See above with Ed Richards. We're set to take Khamis as well. + Crozier looks better back than forward.
Morris - Will see after he comes back, given the age of our list I'd lean towards Morris getting another year even if he's heavily managed. What a person to have around the club for the kids.
NMM - Don't see it. Where does he play? He's behind the 4000 talls on our list. Rookie anyway.
Picken - Look after your health and young family Picko. He was our best player during the 2016 finals series and is one of the most popular players of his generation but the long term risk is too great. Life > football.

That's two rookies off and 6 gone assuming Morris is on our list in 2019.
The second list all stay simply because we haven't got the picks to turn the list over that heavily.

First rounder, West, Khamis, option on academy kids and 1-2 late specie picks. Would love to pick up a cheap FA for our age profile.

[jeemak]

'If' someone offered Dahl $800,000 for 5 years, that makes the compo around Goddard & James Frawley. That being a first rounder.

If we finish low and landed two top 10 picks and Rhylee West cheap in the first rounder as a FS, plus NGA options like Khamis, that would be a monster results to turn a refresh into a great rebuild. So if we finish low and Dahl gets a huge offer, I'd take it happily. We need mids who kick hit targets by foot, so if we got three and Khamis, then losing Dahl doesn't bother me. But there's a lot of 'if's' in this post.

Who's offering Dahl any more than $550K-$600K a season? Not enough hurt factor by foot, and still too patchy with his decision making.

[Eastdog]

Who's offering Dahl any more than $550K-$600K a season? Not enough hurt factor by foot, and still too patchy with his decision making.

The game against the Dons there signs of the old Dahl but yeah he is another who has been disappointing recently.

[bulldogtragic]

Who's offering Dahl any more than $550K-$600K a season? Not enough hurt factor by foot, and still too patchy with his decision making.

Not too many at all I imagine. Only if a club is looking to land a trade they can spin as a 'big coup' trade to the media and members. Maybe Saints or Brisbane/GCS.

Personally, I think we are holing way too many players who 'crack in' but who lack any polish. That's where I'd be looking at list trurnover first and foremost.

[Twodogs]

How far off is Morris? If he us running already we should think about making him a runner so he could spend some time organising our defense.

[Mantis]

How far off is Morris? If he us running already we should think about making him a runner so he could spend some time organising our defense.

Don't we pay Steve King to organise our defence?

[jeemak]

Not too many at all I imagine. Only if a club is looking to land a trade they can spin as a 'big coup' trade to the media and members. Maybe Saints or Brisbane/GCS.

Personally, I think we are holing way too many players who 'crack in' but who lack any polish. That's where I'd be looking at list trurnover first and foremost.

I think this is why we're hellbent on turning forwards or defenders with good skills, into midfielders. If you can't draft athletic midfielders with good foot skills, because for the most part they are hard to get at the pointy end of each draft and you may not have the picks, I suppose the next best thing is to find players who could go into the midfield at a later time.

[Twodogs]

I think this is why we're hellbent on turning forwards or defenders with good skills, into midfielders. If you can't draft athletic midfielders with good foot skills, because for the most part they are hard to get at the pointy end of each draft and you may not have the picks, I suppose the next best thing is to find players who could go into the midfield at a later time.


Or wait until other clubs stars become FAs and offer them the farm.

[Sedat]

Don't we pay Steve King to organise our defence?
Spot on. Although Gilligan and Steve Hocking are paid to run the competition but still feel the need to create some pissant "competition committee" to do their job for them. It also gives Patrick Dangerfield some more much needed media profile.

Isn't Gaff a FA at the end of this year? I would happily throw $750k a year for someone in his age profile who can run all day, find the footy and kick it well.

[bornadog]

Spot on. Although Gilligan and Steve Hocking are paid to run the competition but still feel the need to create some pissant "competition committee" to do their job for them. It also gives Patrick Dangerfield some more much needed media profile.

Isn't Gaff a FA at the end of this year? I would happily throw $750k a year for someone in his age profile who can run all day, find the footy and kick it well.

I think you and Mantis missed Twodogs point.

[ReLoad]

I think we can pretty much rule a line through Clay Smith :( - Such a shame his finals series in 2016 with what he went through was epic, but his body just cant handle sustained AFL conditioning.

Ive also got a serious question marl over Redpath. - Whats everyone's take on him at the end of the year?

[bulldogtragic]

I think we can pretty much rule a line through Clay Smith :( - Such a shame his finals series in 2016 with what he went through was epic, but his body just cant handle sustained AFL conditioning.

Ive also got a serious question marl over Redpath. - Whats everyone's take on him at the end of the year?

Add Picken & Morris to that list of injury related retirements. (4)

Then current questions over Campbell, Webb, Honeychurch, Collins (I hope get gets one more) (4)

Targeted as a free agent by other clubs Dahl (1)

That's leaving aside players asking for a trade out. Might be a big list management period.

[Sedat]

With our trading out of the 2nd round this year, I hope we are targeting a FA of substance to fill the breach. Get Gaff.

[bulldogtragic]

With our trading out of the 2nd round this year, I hope we are targeting a FA of substance to fill the breach. Get Gaff.

We only really traded the 2nd round points knowing West & Khamis might go high and we wouldn't have the pick anyway. So we need to find points which should be very easy enough. If we got good compo for Dahl (for instance), we'd lose the compo by getting a good free agent, say Gaff. It might be an interesting debate internally about how we will approach free agency this year incoming and outgoing.

[Twodogs]

Dahl has already said he will be at the club next year. I don't think he has ever made a noise about leaving, in fact quite the reverse-he said the club and his management will work something out and he will sign it. Why are you so convinced that he is going?

[bulldogtragic]

Dahl has already said he will be at the club next year. I don't think he has ever made a noise about leaving, in fact quite the reverse-he said the club and his management will work something out and he will sign it. Why are you so convinced that he is going?

Only my view he holds the largest value. I'm not saying he's going, but if we are rebuilding, if he holds the most value to fast track the rebuild. It's not a view of getting rid of him or disliking him. Just what our free agency strategy might be this year.

[Jeanette54]

Only my view he holds the largest value. I'm not saying he's going, but if we are rebuilding, if he holds the most value to fast track the rebuild. It's not a view of getting rid of him or disliking him. Just what our free agency strategy might be this year.

I am sorry, but I am old enough to consider that sort of thinking exactly what is wrong with football these days. Players like Luke, who frequently win the hardball, or at least stifle the hardball contests are worth their weight in gold. Particularly ones who want to stay a part of the club. Once they were lauded for their loyalty and endeavour, not for their "trade bait" value. Every time I see the pack clear and Luke gets up last with the ball in hand, I know there is still a place for this type of player and the hard work ethic that they bring.

[ledge]

I read somewhere that we are Looking to sign on all our free agents shortly , including Morris.

[Testekill]

With Morris, I reckon it's always up to him whether he plays on or not. He's essentially a playing-coach and will still have so much to teach our kids in defense. Even if he retires, he'll either stick around as or get poached to be a specialist defensive coach.

It's a similar case to Picken although I think that we should sit him down and tell him that his longterm health is the most important thing.

[Mofra]

Only my view he holds the largest value. I'm not saying he's going, but if we are rebuilding, if he holds the most value to fast track the rebuild. It's not a view of getting rid of him or disliking him. Just what our free agency strategy might be this year.
I'd prefer to keep Dahl than the crapshoot of a pick in the 30s and we end up with Webb or Declan Hamilton.
On field and for the off-field 'keeping the group together'.

The last player we let walk as a FA was Shaun Higgins.

[Axe Man]

I read somewhere that we are Looking to sign on all our free agents shortly , including Morris.

If Morris does play on I can't imagine that decision would be made before the end of the season. There is no point in doing it earlier.

[ledge]

Just read that mark Stevens put a picture up of Bont meeting Buckley at a Melbourne cafe on Twitter but he has since deleted it.

[jeemak]

Just read that mark Stevens put a picture up of Bont meeting Buckley at a Melbourne cafe on Twitter but he has since deleted it.

If true, how bloody stupid would each of Buckley or Bontempelli have to be to meet in public?

[ledge]

If true, how bloody stupid would each of Buckley or Bontempelli have to be to meet in public?

Apparently Bont was on 927 this morning so maybe something to do with radio.

[Mantis]

Ive also got a serious question marl over Redpath. - Whats everyone's take on him at the end of the year?

Makes our decision to re-sign him for 2 years, after previously only ever giving him 1 even more puzzling.

Our tendency to give 2 or 3 year contracts to fringe players over the past few years has been crazy... If J-Mac was the driving force then I'm happy he's someone elses problem.

[LostDoggy]

'If' someone offered Dahl $800,000 for 5 years, that makes the compo around Goddard & James Frawley. That being a first rounder.

If we finish low and landed two top 10 picks and Rhylee West cheap in the first rounder as a FS, plus NGA options like Khamis, that would be a monster results to turn a refresh into a great rebuild. So if we finish low and Dahl gets a huge offer, I'd take it happily. We need mids who kick hit targets by foot, so if we got three and Khamis, then losing Dahl doesn't bother me. But there's a lot of 'if's' in this post.

Geelong got a first round pick for Motlop last year, for a reported $500k 4 year contract.

[bulldogtragic]

Geelong got a first round pick for Motlop last year, for a reported $500k 4 year contract.

Ah the AFEL. Whilst I understand the posters above and I'm not saying let's move Dahl on. But if we had say pick 6 and Dahl compo was pick 7 in a super draft. I'm just saying, I'd have a conversation about it. We've got a lot of guys who crack in but lack foot skills. We need foot skills and two top 10 picks and Rhylee West in a super draft might help fix that.

I just think we can't get too much into a line of only one thinking. Especially with how to use free agency. It's going to be interesting this year to see where the Sam Power Rangers (draft and trade team) fall on many theories.

[Twodogs]

I think you are right. I wonder if Sam Power will be significantly different to Jmac in the way he does things? Jmac was fairly conservative, maybe Sam will try and make the running a bit more?

[bornadog]

Makes our decision to re-sign him for 2 years, after previously only ever giving him 1 even more puzzling.

Our tendency to give 2 or 3 year contracts to fringe players over the past few years has been crazy... If J-Mac was the driving force then I'm happy he's someone elses problem.

I wonder what the inner workings are and who makes these decisions on length of contract?

[Axe Man]

Geelong got a first round pick for Motlop last year, for a reported $500k 4 year contract.


Ah the AFEL. Whilst I understand the posters above and I'm not saying let's move Dahl on. But if we had say pick 6 and Dahl compo was pick 7 in a super draft. I'm just saying, I'd have a conversation about it. We've got a lot of guys who crack in but lack foot skills. We need foot skills and two top 10 picks and Rhylee West in a super draft might help fix that.

I just think we can't get too much into a line of only one thinking. Especially with how to use free agency. It's going to be interesting this year to see where the Sam Power Rangers (draft and trade team) fall on many theories.

To clarify Motlop and Rockliff both netted their clubs end of first round compensation. I would be shocked if anyone offered Dahl a large enough contract to trigger higher compensation than end of first round. Motlop reportedly only just scrapped into that band of compensation.

[bulldogtragic]

To clarify Motlop and Rockliff both netted their clubs end of first round compensation. I would be shocked if anyone offered Dahl a large enough contract to trigger higher compensation than end of first round. Motlop reportedly only just scrapped into that band of compensation.

I was more thinking of Frawley & Goddard compo. And yep, I can't see Dahl getting such an offer. But as a thinking point, it does no harm thinking through various scenarios. Especially not knowing how Sam Power will go about things, especially this first year.

[Sedat]

Geelong got a first round pick for Motlop last year, for a reported $500k 4 year contract.
We can't use the Motlop trade as a precedent - it was vintage AFEL makey-uppey designed to give GC proper compensation for losing Ablett and Geelong not having to give up anything to bring him back.

If by some remote chance Dahl is offered a lucrative contract that would net us a significant draft pick (ie: inside the top 10) we would be derelict in our duty not to at least look at it. But the problem is that the AFEL can simply change the parameters of what the compensation should be, so there's no guarantee of anything.

[bornadog]

Contracts up in 2018

Clay Smith
Dale Morris
Fergus Greene
Jordan Roughead
Kieran Collins
Lin Jong
Luke Dahlhaus
Matt Suckling
Mitch Honeychurch
Mitch Wallis
Shane Biggs
Tom Campbell
Tom Liberatore
Tory Dickson
Zaine Cordy


Billy Gowers (R)
Brad Lynch (R)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R)
Roarke Smith (R)

Who do we not re-sign?

[Twodogs]

Contracts up in 2018

Clay Smith
Dale Morris
Fergus Greene
Jordan Roughead
Kieran Collins
Lin Jong
Luke Dahlhaus
Matt Suckling
Mitch Honeychurch
Mitch Wallis
Shane Biggs
Tom Campbell
Tom Liberatore
Tory Dickson
Zaine Cordy


Billy Gowers (R)
Brad Lynch (R)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R)
Roarke Smith (R)

Who do we not re-sign?


I don't know but premiership hero Shane Biggs timing is appalling. He's picked the worst year ever to have a continuing firm slump. If he doesn't get some form back he would be on the list to get the lemonade.

Tom Campbell is moving into eker territory. And we really can't afford to indulge ourselves with ekers.

Clay Smith. I can't see him ever getting back to his best.

Lin Jong and Mitch Honeychurch. Is their best ever going to be good enough? Maybe as players in really good teams where they have one job to do, but we are a long way from being a good team ATM.

Tory Dickson? He has spent a lit of time in the sidelines with "old man" soft tissue injuries the last couple of seasons. At his best he brings a lot but his best looks more and more to be in the past. Outside of the odd glimpse like goals from tge boundary and chase down and tackles.

[azabob]

As of now I’d not offer contracts to

Clay Smith
Dale Morris
Mitch Honeychurch
Shane Biggs
Tom Campbell

Brad Lynch (R)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R)
Roarke Smith (R)

[bornadog]

As of now I’d not offer contracts to

Clay Smith
Dale Morris
Mitch Honeychurch
Shane Biggs
Tom Campbell

Brad Lynch (R)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R)
Roarke Smith (R)

Why not Biggs Aza?

[Sedat]

As of now I’d not offer contracts to

Clay Smith
Dale Morris
Mitch Honeychurch
Shane Biggs
Tom Campbell

Brad Lynch (R)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R)
Roarke Smith (R)
Fergus Greene would want to show significant improvement for the rest of this season to feel safe. Ditto Kieran Collins when he returns from injury.

Roughy, Jong, Suckers and Wally are a watch for various reasons. Roughy for his limitations to play one position and being usurped by English already. Jong still hasn't quite cemented his spot in the seniors after a number of years. Suckers is deserving of another year on current form but age is an issue. Wally is in the same boat as Jong. All of Jong, Suckers and Wally have the chance for the remainder of this year to play themselves into another contact. Roughy is an interesting one - if English continues to command #1 ruck position, do we keep him as insurance? Will he consider going to another club for greater opportunities?

Plenty to play out for the remainder of the season.

[jeemak]

Fergus Greene would want to show significant improvement for the rest of this season to feel safe. Ditto Kieran Collins when he returns from injury.

Roughy, Jong, Suckers and Wally are a watch for various reasons. Roughy for his limitations to play one position and being usurped by English already. Jong still hasn't quite cemented his spot in the seniors after a number of years. Suckers is deserving of another year on current form but age is an issue. Wally is in the same boat as Jong. All of Jong, Suckers and Wally have the chance for the remainder of this year to play themselves into another contact. Roughy is an interesting one - if English continues to command #1 ruck position, do we keep him as insurance? Will he consider going to another club for greater opportunities?

Plenty to play out for the remainder of the season.

Providing Wally continues his current form line he's going to be a Bulldogs player next year. Averaging 21 touches, 5 marks, 5 tackles and a goal a game in a fragmented midfield suggests he's going pretty well. We also need to be mindful of how he looks after one less than ideal season following a disgusting injury, and an interrupted preseason. He's safer with his kicking than many, and is extremely good with hands in close. Putting him in the same category as Jong is rubbish IMO, Wally has a much better track record.

Onto Jong, I've never thought he was AFL material however, he's coming back from a knee and is likely to struggle this year no matter what. Perhaps he's no good, perhaps he's gotten injured at the wrong time and would as a minimum be considered as a Rookie option for next year...........

I like Suckling more than others, I'm really concerned about Roughead however.

[bulldogtragic]

As of now I’d not offer contracts to

Clay Smith
Dale Morris
Mitch Honeychurch
Shane Biggs
Tom Campbell

Brad Lynch (R)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R)
Roarke Smith (R)

I reckon that's pretty close. If Picken's long term health and ability to live life well is compromised, I'd like him to retire on ill health as a hero - not a delisting at all. Although maybe Biggs stays on less cash, wrong time for bad form. For me, Collins also stays for one more year - a make or break year. I'd keep Suckers, but I wonder if he will finally go over to the USA to try out punting and thus retire. Not sure why Redders got two years, but he stays unles we 'Cloke' him to keep another player. I really like Lukas Webb, but I think we've stuffed his development and he needs a new club to thrive, heading into.... Then there's fringe players requesting trades out, Webb, Roberts etc. Or free agents if Dahl and Roughy get good offers.

In all, a fair few moved on. Talk about a huge year for Power and the draft team.

[LostDoggy]

Contracts up in 2018

Clay Smith
Dale Morris
Fergus Greene
Jordan Roughead
Kieran Collins
Lin Jong
Luke Dahlhaus
Matt Suckling
Mitch Honeychurch
Mitch Wallis
Shane Biggs
Tom Campbell
Tom Liberatore
Tory Dickson
Zaine Cordy


Billy Gowers (R)
Brad Lynch (R)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R)
Roarke Smith (R)

Who do we not re-sign?

I would say that Libba, Wallis, Dahl, Roughy, Cordy, Suckling, Jong and Gowers have show enough to be definite re-signs.

Morris and Dickson just need to show that their bodies are still up to it.

The other 8 all need to show improved form to warrant another contract for mine, could be a big post season coming up.

[Remi Moses]

Pretty much nailed it Aza . Roberts and Red have another year ?
I could see Wally staying ahead of Jong , and I think big Tom Campbell is gone .

[LostDoggy]

Collins is a tricky one. He is still young and deserves more time, but with Cordy, Young and Naughton going past him, Trengove coming in, Adams in the mix and Roberts still contracted, is he simply surplus to requirements? If we could trade him for say something in the 30s/40s would we take it?

[bulldogtragic]

Collins is a tricky one. He is still young and deserves more time, but with Cordy, Young and Naughton going past him, Trengove coming in, Adams in the mix and Roberts still contracted, is he simply surplus to requirements? If we could trade him for say something in the 30s/40s would we take it?

I'd rather keep Collins an extra year, and if it's a delistment next year so be it. Koby Stevens was a deficit draft points trade, Collins current worth is even less than that. No one wanted Campbell or Honeychurch last year at the trade table. If someone has to move, who has any value, I'd nominate Roberts to move on.

[LostDoggy]

I'd rather keep Collins an extra year, and if it's a delistment next year so be it. Koby Stevens was a deficit draft points trade, Collins current worth is even less than that. No one wanted Campbell or Honeychurch last year at the trade table. If someone has to move, who has any value, I'd nominate Roberts to move on.

I disagree that Collins trade value would be less than Stevens. He is a high draft pick 20yo kpp, totally different to a mid20s mid. I agree if his trade value is minimal then keep him.

[bulldogtragic]

I disagree that Collins trade value would be less than Stevens. He is a high draft pick 20yo kpp, totally different to a mid20s mid. I agree if his trade value is minimal then keep him.

Let's focus on agreement, I think we keep him. Koby showed he could play at the level. But I still like Collins, it's just he shares the same DNA as Tom Williams. So I'd give him one more. But if he can't string AFL games together by next year, I think that's an easy delisting. But I'm hoping we can get him fit and strong and have an even bigger fight to get picked in the back 6. Just not sure I'd put money on it.

[bornadog]

Trengove coming in

Listening to Bevo today, he said when he spoke to Trengove about coming to the club, it was for mainly Ruck/Fwd duties and he would only go back to FB if we had to send him there. So we can assume he is not a backman.

[LostDoggy]

Listening to Bevo today, he said when he spoke to Trengove about coming to the club, it was for mainly Ruck/Fwd duties and he would only go back to FB if we had to send him there. So we can assume he is not a backman.

But Trengove has said he has trained for all 3 positions at the Dogs and he has played a lot of footy there for Port. I think he would play there if required and can be included in the stock that give us kpd depth.

[Mofra]

I disagree that Collins trade value would be less than Stevens. He is a high draft pick 20yo kpp, totally different to a mid20s mid. I agree if his trade value is minimal then keep him.
Collins would be worth about as much as Jason Tutt, who was picked up by Carlton as a DFA. Ditto Hamling, DFA.
He's played one game in 3 years and is not quick in an era where teams are playing smaller and faster forwardlines.
If we did trade him I assume it would be for a pick with little to no points value attached.

[LostDoggy]

Collins would be worth about as much as Jason Tutt, who was picked up by Carlton as a DFA. Ditto Hamling, DFA.
He's played one game in 3 years and is not quick in an era where teams are playing smaller and faster forwardlines.
If we did trade him I assume it would be for a pick with little to no points value attached.
You may be right but the difference between Collins and others you mentioned is that he came into the system highly valued. Players like Aish, Anderson and O'Meara (and many others) were considered flops at their first club but still attracted high trade values (all got first rounders or equivalent). Collins will have depreciated, but not enough to be valueless.

I don't see any evidence that key defenders are of diminishing value. We used a top 10 for Naughton, Melbourne used 2 first rounders for Lever and Carlton recently used a #1 for Weitering. Although small forwardlines are fashionable, all teams still use at least 1 tall forward (some 2 or 3) so teams still need a few kpds on their list.

[kruder]

Listening to Bevo today, he said when he spoke to Trengove about coming to the club, it was for mainly Ruck/Fwd duties and he would only go back to FB if we had to send him there. So we can assume he is not a backman.

Do you think Trengove will make it?

[bornadog]

Do you think Trengove will make it?

So far I am not impressed. GWS game he had 3 handballs and a kick, which was a massive worry. I will wait and see on this one as I know he played some good footy at Port.

[LostDoggy]

So far I am not impressed. GWS game he had 3 handballs and a kick, which was a massive worry. I will wait and see on this one as I know he played some good footy at Port.

He did play a big chunk of that game at FF in a team getting flogged. In R2 he looked better largely playing kpd (13 posessions) despite injuring his shouder. Agree jury is still out though.

[kruder]

So far I am not impressed. GWS game he had 3 handballs and a kick, which was a massive worry. I will wait and see on this one as I know he played some good footy at Port.

The concern for mine is that Trengove has started like he finished at Port. I cant remember a player playing second grade football getting a 3 year deal at another club.

[Mofra]

The concern for mine is that Trengove has started like he finished at Port. I cant remember a player playing second grade football getting a 3 year deal at another club.
How quickly we forget "explosive animal" Liam Jones.

[macca]

Looking at Ports defence now, they have a pretty good backline in Housten, jonas, howard, Darcy Byrne-Jones, Jack Hombsch and Marshall. Marshal looks like a good player who knows how to kick, play at both ends and a good mark.

I can see now why port let him go. Is Trengrove more just depth as our Young backmen mature? Giving 3 years sounds like a reasonable insurance time for them to developer. Trengrove offers bonus of playing in ruck, so our younger players don't get smashed in that position.

Kinda like keep jarred waite for Wood of north melbourne.

[Bullies]

Do you think Trengove will make it? Trengrove will be our Chris Mayne unfortunately.

[bornadog]

Trengrove will be our Chris Mayne unfortunately.

I don't believe it will be that bad. He was brought in as a second ruck/Fwd as our young rucks develop.

[Twodogs]

Trengrove will be our Chris Mayne unfortunately.

We've already had a Jade Rawlings.

[Happy Days]

Anyone interested in De Goey?

He seems like a little bastard but he is also an incredible talent. He's come back from his suspension looking like a Toby Greene clone, and is the sort of player we really need. Plus there's clearly a lot of upside there.

[hujsh]

If he up for trade or out of contract?

[bulldogtragic]

Anyone interested in De Goey?

He seems like a little bastard but he is also an incredible talent. He's come back from his suspension looking like a Toby Greene clone, and is the sort of player we really need. Plus there's clearly a lot of upside there.

How would a trade look?

P.s. Out of contract Hujsh

[bornadog]

How would a trade look?

P.s. Out of contract Hujsh

Cannot see him leaving Collingwood

[bulldogtragic]

Cannot see him leaving Collingwood

I can't see us putting up something worth Collingwood considering it. This year is difficult for us unless a big name leaves us, bigger than a Dahl type.

[Happy Days]

(I swear I already posted this so sorry if it doubles up)

Couldn't we just sign him?

If we have a more attractive offer and he wants to come then realistically, between the tremendous influence of the AFLPA and the general culture around free agency and overcompensation, Collingwood probably won't be able to do much besides bluster to stop it.

It's easy to say "our first pick" but giving up a good first round pick never really works, and developing the best talent from the draft (which you 90% of the time get inside the top 10-15) is always the best way to build a list. If we absolutely have to trade I would want it to be a player/second-pick package (Dunkley/Young/Williams?), but I'd much prefer RFA.

[Ozza]

De Goey is going to be very expensive ($700-$800K a season). Hard to see him leaving the Pies. Kind of owes it to them to sign on again!

Huge talent.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

(I swear I already posted this so sorry if it doubles up)

Couldn't we just sign him?

If we have a more attractive offer and he wants to come then realistically, between the tremendous influence of the AFLPA and the general culture around free agency and overcompensation, Collingwood probably won't be able to do much besides bluster to stop it.

It's easy to say "our first pick" but giving up a good first round pick never really works, and developing the best talent from the draft (which you 90% of the time get inside the top 10-15) is always the best way to build a list. If we absolutely have to trade I would want it to be a player/second-pick package (Dunkley/Young/Williams?), but I'd much prefer RFA.

DeGoey's not eligible for any form of free agency.

[bulldogtragic]

(I swear I already posted this so sorry if it doubles up)

Couldn't we just sign him?

If we have a more attractive offer and he wants to come then realistically, between the tremendous influence of the AFLPA and the general culture around free agency and overcompensation, Collingwood probably won't be able to do much besides bluster to stop it.

It's easy to say "our first pick" but giving up a good first round pick never really works, and developing the best talent from the draft (which you 90% of the time get inside the top 10-15) is always the best way to build a list. If we absolutely have to trade I would want it to be a player/second-pick package (Dunkley/Young/Williams?), but I'd much prefer RFA.

This is where Dahl is vital this year with RFAs. The key to really abusing free agency to me is to try to eliminate incoming and outgoing agents in the one period. Carlton brought in Daisy Thomas, let go Eddie Betts and got no compo. Far from ideal.

If Dahl is going to sign, then I'd go hard at Gaff. Hard. But if Dahl goes for a first rounder compo, and Gaff's contract is equal or more then there's no compo for us. It's just effectively a trade, not a very good player for no loss. Roughy won't change the free agency needle if he wanted to look around, but Dahl could. So hopefully we are trying to nail things down.

[Happy Days]

DeGoey's not eligible for any form of free agency.

Well there you go.

Guess it would have to be a trade - I'd probably do any of those I outlined.

[Bullies]

Cannot see him leaving Collingwood He is an absolute gun and will only get better.

[Bullies]

This is where Dahl is vital this year with RFAs. The key to really abusing free agency to me is to try to eliminate incoming and outgoing agents in the one period. Carlton brought in Daisy Thomas, let go Eddie Betts and got no compo. Far from ideal.

If Dahl is going to sign, then I'd go hard at Gaff. Hard. But if Dahl goes for a first rounder compo, and Gaff's contract is equal or more then there's no compo for us. It's just effectively a trade, not a very good player for no loss. Roughy won't change the free agency needle if he wanted to look around, but Dahl could. So hopefully we are trying to nail things down. I think you maybe over estimating the value of Dahl in free agency. No one showed much interest last year and so not sure they will up the ante this year.

[bulldogtragic]

I think you maybe over estimating the value of Dahl in free agency. No one showed much interest last year and so not sure they will up the ante this year.

I went into detail in another thread. I'd think Motlop-like, end of first round would be top dollar. Or he resigns, and his value is moot.

[Twodogs]

This is where Dahl is vital this year with RFAs. The key to really abusing free agency to me is to try to eliminate incoming and outgoing agents in the one period. Carlton brought in Daisy Thomas, let go Eddie Betts and got no compo. Far from ideal.

If Dahl is going to sign, then I'd go hard at Gaff. Hard. But if Dahl goes for a first rounder compo, and Gaff's contract is equal or more then there's no compo for us. It's just effectively a trade, not a very good player for no loss. Roughy won't change the free agency needle if he wanted to look around, but Dahl could. So hopefully we are trying to nail things down.


They got Daisy Thomas as compensation. Effectively Thomas for Betts, which at the time would have seemed to be a trade heavily in Carlton's favour.

[westdog54]

They got Daisy Thomas as compensation. Effectively Thomas for Betts, which at the time would have seemed to be a trade heavily in Carlton's favour.

Betts was hardly setting the world on fire at Carlton.

It's almost as if they have no idea how to develop and manage talent.

[Twodogs]

Betts was hardly setting the world on fire at Carlton.

It's almost as if they have no idea how to develop and manage talent.

Yeah and they shipped Ed out and gave his spot on the list to Thomas and it cost Carlton nothing. Except Eddie Betts.

It's truly is a story that turned out great for everyone, Eddie, Adelaide, us (the fans not Bulldog supporters)

[Topdog]

De Goey won't leave Collingwood. He will get paid well there both by Collingwood and some "sponsor"

[Axe Man]

As a cheap option would we consider Aaron Hall from Gold Coast? Is clearly out of favour and odds on out the door at year end. Has plenty of talent and brings something to our midfield that is in critically short supply - outside run and pace. The big knock on him seems to be his defensive efforts. Would we back ourselves to turn his attitude around?

[bulldogtragic]

As a cheap option would we consider Aaron Hall from Gold Coast? Is clearly out of favour and odds on out the door at year end. Has plenty of talent and brings something to our midfield that is in critically short supply - outside run and pace. The big knock on him seems to be his defensive efforts. Would we back ourselves to turn his attitude around?

Money ball option for me. Very good goal sense too if we are looking for a speedy forward. If he was cheap enough, then I'd seriously look at him.

[Twodogs]

As a matter of interest did Jake Stringer make an appearance in this thread prior to trade week?

[Axe Man]

Not us apparently...

Five Victorian clubs chasing West Coast’s former Victorian Andrew Gaff as a free agent target (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/five-victorian-clubs-chasing-west-coasts-former-victorian-andrew-gaff-as-a-free-agent-target/news-story/fef41b8f27ec35f974b9473dfa269c2d)

FIVE Victorian clubs are trying to tempt star West Coast midfielder Andrew Gaff to come back home to Melbourne.

The Herald Sun can reveal Melbourne, St Kilda, Carlton, Essendon and North Melbourne all have an interest in the restricted free agent.

The Eagles have made an attractive long-term offer to keep Gaff, believed to be upwards of $750,000 a year for the No. 4 draft pick of 2010.

[bulldogtragic]

Not us apparently...

Five Victorian clubs chasing West Coast’s former Victorian Andrew Gaff as a free agent target (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/five-victorian-clubs-chasing-west-coasts-former-victorian-andrew-gaff-as-a-free-agent-target/news-story/fef41b8f27ec35f974b9473dfa269c2d)

FIVE Victorian clubs are trying to tempt star West Coast midfielder Andrew Gaff to come back home to Melbourne.

The Herald Sun can reveal Melbourne, St Kilda, Carlton, Essendon and North Melbourne all have an interest in the restricted free agent.

The Eagles have made an attractive long-term offer to keep Gaff, believed to be upwards of $750,000 a year for the No. 4 draft pick of 2010.

Weird we wouldn't pursue a good ball user and good player, moreso as a free agent.

[LostDoggy]

Weird we wouldn't pursue a good ball user and good player, moreso as a free agent.
Just because we are not listed in the article, doesn't mean we're not also showing interest. Plus there is a long way to go till trade period.

[bulldogtragic]

Just because we are not listed in the article, doesn't mean we're not also showing interest. Plus there is a long way to go till trade period.

99% his manager leaked the list of clubs and money. I'd expect all interested clubs would be listed to bulk up the pressure on WC. What I'd expect, having wasted months on a certain Adelaide defender last year, we might be not getting stuck in middle of a fight we probably won't win and looking at others we can win if we want to trade/free agent in any players.

[LostDoggy]

99% his manager leaked the list of clubs and money. I'd expect all interested clubs would be listed to bulk up the pressure on WC. What I'd expect, having wasted months on a certain Adelaide defender last year, we might be not getting stuck in middle of a fight we probably won't win and looking at others we can win if we want to trade/free agent in any players.

Yeah, all fair enough. Probably with 2 new people heading the recruitment/list management division, they're probably a bit reticent to be making big decisions/offers too early on. I appreciate that he's a free agent, but committing a significant proportion of salary cap at this stage would be tougher for new guys finding their feet.

[bulldogtragic]

Yeah, all fair enough. Probably with 2 new people heading the recruitment/list management division, they're probably a bit reticent to be making big decisions/offers too early on. I appreciate that he's a free agent, but committing a significant proportion of salary cap at this stage would be tougher for new guys finding their feet.

Just as there's no repeat of Dal's first year fiasco, Howard & Tutt with two top picks...

[GVGjr]

Not us apparently...

Five Victorian clubs chasing West Coast’s former Victorian Andrew Gaff as a free agent target (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/five-victorian-clubs-chasing-west-coasts-former-victorian-andrew-gaff-as-a-free-agent-target/news-story/fef41b8f27ec35f974b9473dfa269c2d)

FIVE Victorian clubs are trying to tempt star West Coast midfielder Andrew Gaff to come back home to Melbourne.

The Herald Sun can reveal Melbourne, St Kilda, Carlton, Essendon and North Melbourne all have an interest in the restricted free agent.

The Eagles have made an attractive long-term offer to keep Gaff, believed to be upwards of $750,000 a year for the No. 4 draft pick of 2010.

Don't believe what you read in the paper, Bulldogtragic will make our decision and he is of course working through the challenges of the Tom Boyd contract and seeing what we can put in front of the Bont before we consider Gaff.

[Twodogs]

Don't believe what you read in the paper, Bulldogtragic will make our decision and he is of course working through the challenges of the Tom Boyd contract and seeing what we can put in front of the Bont before we consider Gaff.

This. I'm expecting BT to sign the Bont up long term before he turns to anything else.

[josie]

What would we get for Wallis? Wet tonight which should suit slow players. IMO has been poor.

[bornadog]

What would we get for Wallis? Wet tonight which should suit slow players. IMO has been poor.

I thought Wallis was ok, laid 10 tackles and ended up with 20 disposals, was on the bottom of the pack pushing the ball out.

[bulldogtragic]

Time to turn this top-up senior players from else refresh into a rebuild. We've not cut hard enough for a while now, so now there's a problem by not managing the outgoing players process effectively.

As good as gone: Campbell, Honeychurch, Roberts, Collins (only if is body proves incapable tof the rigours of AFEL) (3-4)

Retired: Morris, Clay Smith, Picken (3)

Tradable/lose to FA-able: Dahl, Wallis, Roughy (3)

Rookies: All bar Gowers must be under scrutiny

[G-Mo77]

Problem with that now BT is we've already created a mess of a list, our list is far to young and missing mid agers and vets already, we cut deep and it even becomes more messier. Dahl, Wallis and Roughie will be all with us next year, I'd be willing to put money on that. I wouldn't be surprised to see Moz go on again as well. The others you listed, yeah probably gone.

I'm not going to sit through another season of beating our chests saying we're the youngest team in the comp. I'm sick of hearing it, sick of it being used as a positive to cover up our inability to manage an AFL list.

[bornadog]

Problem with that now BT is we've already created a mess of a list, our list is far to young and missing mid agers and vets already, we cut deep and it even becomes more messier. Dahl, Wallis and Roughie will be all with us next year, I'd be willing to put money on that. I wouldn't be surprised to see Moz go on again as well. The others you listed, yeah probably gone.

I'm not going to sit through another season of beating our chests saying we're the youngest team in the comp. I'm sick of hearing it, sick of it being used as a positive to cover up our inability to manage an AFL list.

Agree with this, we need our experienced players to stay. I would like to see us recruit someone like a Josh Kelly to supplement our midfield. We need some speed in the midfield, and probably an Eddie Betts type to kick plenty of goals.

By the end of the year, the young players will have plenty more games up their sleeve, and the players from the premiership year will all be in the 100 plus game bracket.

[bulldogtragic]

Problem with that now BT is we've already created a mess of a list, our list is far to young and missing mid agers and vets already, we cut deep and it even becomes more messier. Dahl, Wallis and Roughie will be all with us next year, I'd be willing to put money on that. I wouldn't be surprised to see Moz go on again as well. The others you listed, yeah probably gone.

I'm not going to sit through another season of beating our chests saying we're the youngest team in the comp. I'm sick of hearing it, sick of it being used as a positive to cover up our inability to manage an AFL list.

There's a fair amount of that I agree with. Sam Power has been left a big job. We might do well to target good free agents to cover the losses. At some point we need to cut deep. The longer we leave it, the worse it will get.

[LostDoggy]

Problem with that now BT is we've already created a mess of a list, our list is far to young and missing mid agers and vets already, we cut deep and it even becomes more messier. Dahl, Wallis and Roughie will be all with us next year, I'd be willing to put money on that. I wouldn't be surprised to see Moz go on again as well. The others you listed, yeah probably gone.

I'm not going to sit through another season of beating our chests saying we're the youngest team in the comp. I'm sick of hearing it, sick of it being used as a positive to cover up our inability to manage an AFL list.

I think what BT is suggesting is trading/delisting out a few who don't fit our squad (or who haven't quite lived up to expecations) and trading in some experienced players who can balance our list out (as well take 3-4 kids at the draft). There's no way we'd be taking a massive amount of picks to the draft.

Besides, our list isn't exceptionally young. The teams we have been fielding this year have been, because a lot of our senior players have been injured.

[Sedat]

Besides, our list isn't exceptionally young. The teams we have been fielding this year have been, because a lot of our senior players have been injured.
Or we have too many of the same type and the list is unbalanced.

[bulldogtragic]

Or we have too many of the same type and the list is unbalanced.

Which makes some of the two year deals to recontract them still look puzzling.

[Sedat]

Which makes some of the two year deals to recontract them still look puzzling.
Agree 100%

[jeemak]

How do people feel about Marc Murphy? Given our age profile and need for some more run and carry through the middle, do we think that he might offer some value to us as an unrestricted free agent? He's turning 30 this year, so would be in the genuinely late stages of his career should we challenge in the next 2-3 years.

[Greystache]

How do people feel about Marc Murphy? Given our age profile and need for some more run and carry through the middle, do we think that he might offer some value to us as an unrestricted free agent? He's turning 30 this year, so would be in the genuinely late stages of his career should we challenge in the next 2-3 years.

He'd be a good pick up as cream if we think the cake is good enough. I'm not convinced it is and bringing in a player like that when you're not quite there can hurt the upward trajectory, but If Bevo thinks we're in the window I'd back his judgement and try to make the deal.

[Twodogs]

Murphy would be a good pickup if we are in the window. I'm not convinced we are but then I didn't think we would win a flag in 2016 either.

[Mofra]

Quality person - knew people who played cricket with him and they could not speak highly enough of him, even when he was a late teenager.
Not sure he leaves Carlton though. They don't want to end up like Melbourne in the Neeld years when they shipped of Joel McDonald then had no leaders as they tried to develop their kids.

[bornadog]

Quality person - knew people who played cricket with him and they could not speak highly enough of him, even when he was a late teenager.
Not sure he leaves Carlton though. They don't want to end up like Melbourne in the Neeld years when they shipped of Joel McDonald then had no leaders as they tried to develop their kids.

Could be a good leader for our young mids.

In the past I was against taking players around 30 years old, but times have changed and 30 is the new 25.

[jeemak]

He'd be a good pick up as cream if we think the cake is good enough. I'm not convinced it is and bringing in a player like that when you're not quite there can hurt the upward trajectory, but If Bevo thinks we're in the window I'd back his judgement and try to make the deal.


Murphy would be a good pickup if we are in the window. I'm not convinced we are but then I didn't think we would win a flag in 2016 either.

Given it's likely we'll lose Liam and Dale at the end of this year, I'm thinking we'll need to bring in some experience but agree it depends on whether we think we are a realistic chance of finals next year and a genuine crack the following year. If we do, then I'd consider Murphy.

I'm also concerned about the futures of Wallis, Liberatore and Dahl for different reasons, and an experienced high quality midfielder might be required as a priority too.


Quality person - knew people who played cricket with him and they could not speak highly enough of him, even when he was a late teenager.
Not sure he leaves Carlton though. They don't want to end up like Melbourne in the Neeld years when they shipped of Joel McDonald then had no leaders as they tried to develop their kids.

It might not be up to Carlton, Murphy might decide for them. However, the AFL will be falling over themselves to give them first round compensation rather than a priority pick, finishing last or second last and having an immediate selection to use after picks one or two would definitely appeal to them.

[Mofra]

Just having a look at the players out of contract this year there seems like it will be a big period for us.
Add Picken who is contracted to 2019 but could pull the pin:

Matt Suckling (NFL next year?)
Mitch Wallis (expect him to stay)
Luke Dahlhaus (expect him to stay)
Clay Smith (sadly, his knee is stuffed)
Tom Campbell (not rated by the club it seems)
Tom Liberatore (will re-sign)
Mitch Honeychurch (big question marks. Prefer Rhylee)
Jordan Roughead (tough decision looming)
Shane Biggs (keep - back him in on a low contract)
Tory Dickson (perhaps gets the tap on the shoulder)
Fergus Greene (don't see it, sorry)
Kieran Collins (comments by Bevo suggest he stays - I don't see it)
Dale Morris (if he can, give him a year as a playing coach type role)
Lin Jong (line ball)
Brad Lynch (R) (not with Ed Richards and Bailey Williams looking good)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R) (already have an abundance of talls)
Billy Gowers (R) (promote)
Roarke Smith (R) (rated by the club, promote)

That's probably 8 out, 2 in giving us six free spots - and perhaps if Picken retires, that's seven.

[Axe Man]

It might not be up to Carlton, Murphy might decide for them. However, the AFL will be falling over themselves to give them first round compensation rather than a priority pick, finishing last or second last and having an immediate selection to use after picks one or two would definitely appeal to them.

Age plays a major part in free agency compensation, at 30 they will be lucky to get a second round pick.

[Axe Man]

Report: Geelong, Cameron Guthrie reach impasse as AFL free agency looms (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/report-geelong-cameron-guthrie-reach-impasse-as-afl-free-agency-looms/news-story/fe7b1d4103ff69b0a8c8d2ba04eb83c7)

If we can't get Gaff, would Guthrie be a decent addition to our midfield?

Has fallen down the pecking order in the Cats midfield with the addition of Ablett and Kelly, we should be able to offer him a greater midfield role.

Hypothetically would you take an effective swap of Guthrie for Dahlhaus (both leave under free agency - Guthrie addition wipes Dahl compensation out)? Money and contract should be similar.

[Mantis]

Just having a look at the players out of contract this year there seems like it will be a big period for us.
Add Picken who is contracted to 2019 but could pull the pin:

Matt Suckling (NFL next year?)
Mitch Wallis (expect him to stay)
Luke Dahlhaus (expect him to stay)
Clay Smith (sadly, his knee is stuffed)
Tom Campbell (not rated by the club it seems)
Tom Liberatore (will re-sign)
Mitch Honeychurch (big question marks. Prefer Rhylee)
Jordan Roughead (tough decision looming)
Shane Biggs (keep - back him in on a low contract)
Tory Dickson (perhaps gets the tap on the shoulder)
Fergus Greene (don't see it, sorry)
Kieran Collins (comments by Bevo suggest he stays - I don't see it)
Dale Morris (if he can, give him a year as a playing coach type role)
Lin Jong (line ball)
Brad Lynch (R) (not with Ed Richards and Bailey Williams looking good)
Nathan Mullenger-McHugh (R) (already have an abundance of talls)
Billy Gowers (R) (promote)
Roarke Smith (R) (rated by the club, promote)

That's probably 8 out, 2 in giving us six free spots - and perhaps if Picken retires, that's seven.

The list doesn't include players on contract who would probably look to explore their options in Webb & Roberts.. One would also think Redpath may look to retire given he can't get/stay on the park with his knee issues.

Big changes ahead, which are probably over-due.

[bornadog]

Report: Geelong, Cameron Guthrie reach impasse as AFL free agency looms (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/report-geelong-cameron-guthrie-reach-impasse-as-afl-free-agency-looms/news-story/fe7b1d4103ff69b0a8c8d2ba04eb83c7)

If we can't get Gaff, would Guthrie be a decent addition to our midfield?

Has fallen down the pecking order in the Cats midfield with the addition of Ablett and Kelly, we should be able to offer him a greater midfield role.

Hypothetically would you take an effective swap of Guthrie for Dahlhaus (both leave under free agency - Guthrie addition wipes Dahl compensation out)? Money and contract should be similar.

I am not sure about Guthrie, is he any good?

[Axe Man]

I am not sure about Guthrie, is he any good?

I haven't seen heaps of him but I believe he has good pace, can carry the ball, break lines and use it pretty well. Certainly no star which is why he might be get-able. I think he has frustrated Cats supporters a bit by showing some really good signs but then not producing it consistently. Will watch with interest when he returns from injury in the coming weeks.

[bulldogtragic]

I haven't seen heaps of him but I believe he has good pace, can carry the ball, break lines and use it pretty well. Certainly no star which is why he might be get-able. I think he has frustrated Cats supporters a bit by showing some really good signs but then not producing it consistently. Will watch with interest when he returns from injury in the coming weeks.

From memory, I think GVGjr is a fan. Geelong were rumoured to be interested in Dahl. The simplest outcome (from your first post on it) if we wanted, would be trading directly with Geelong with/for both and us tweaking some later picks to get a few more draft points. Would you take that?

[LostDoggy]

I quite like Guthrie. He is a ball carrier but is courageous in the contest, is versatile and has a little bit of x-factor about him. He has played 20+ games in each of the last 5 years and is still only 25 years old. For mine, he is definitely a player that would enhance our list.

[Mofra]

I quite like Guthrie. He is a ball carrier but is courageous in the contest, is versatile and has a little bit of x-factor about him. He has played 20+ games in each of the last 5 years and is still only 25 years old. For mine, he is definitely a player that would enhance our list.
Ditto. And he can go into the middle, something a lot of our flanker types can't do.

[jeemak]

Cam Guthrie (2017 - he has only played three games this year) versus Dahl (2018) - the below stats don't really tell much of a story but I thought I'd look anyway:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=10&playerStatus2=A&tid2=8&type=A&pid1=3468&pid2=3556&fid1=P&fopt1=2017&fid2=S

If we want a bigger body who can cover a defensive flank it might work for us, and like those above i think we need utilities who can work through the middle.

[Axe Man]

From memory, I think GVGjr is a fan. Geelong were rumoured to be interested in Dahl. The simplest outcome (from your first post on it) if we wanted, would be trading directly with Geelong with/for both and us tweaking some later picks to get a few more draft points. Would you take that?

I would. Preferably we keep Dahl but if Guthrie plays decent footy in the second half of the year and Dahl continues the way he has been going then Guthrie becomes more valuable to us. My hypothetical works if Dahl leaves for any team, not just Geelong. Of course if it ended up being Geelong then a trade would make more sense.

[bulldogtragic]

I would. Preferably we keep Dahl but if Guthrie plays decent footy in the second half of the year and Dahl continues the way he has been going then Guthrie becomes more valuable to us. My hypothetical works if Dahl leaves for any team, not just Geelong. Of course if it ended up being Geelong then a trade would make more sense.

From memory the last article about Dahl was about Geelong showing most interest. If Dahl & Wally wanted out, we'd need to find a mature bigger body for next year. Guthrie might be an option to fit the bill.

[bornadog]

If we think Guthrie is better than Dahl, why would Geelong want to do a swap?

[jeemak]

If we think Guthrie is better than Dahl, why would Geelong want to do a swap?

Because they might think Dahl is better than Guthrie.

[Axe Man]

If we think Guthrie is better than Dahl, why would Geelong want to do a swap?

They probably don't but it's all about needs. Geelong regularly get smashed in the clearances, maybe they see Dahl as someone who will get in and get his hands dirty while all their superstars are sitting back waiting for an easy ball. Guthrie can't get much of a run in the middle there so they obviously rate him below many others.

[bornadog]

Because they might think Dahl is better than Guthrie.

What do you think?

I prefer Dahl.

[Dry Rot]

Have read that Stevo tweeted that Wallis is probably leaving. Will take a lot to change that.

Falling out with Bevo?

What are we likely to get in a compo pick?

[bulldogtragic]

Have read that Stevo tweeted that Wallis is probably leaving. Will take a lot to change that.

Falling out with Bevo?

What are we likely to get in a compo pick?

A lot is involved to say with certainty. My guess, at very best case a second rounder at our natural selection (which is now Carltons), so circa pick 24.

[GVGjr]

A lot is involved to say with certainty. My guess, at very best case a second rounder at our natural selection (which is now Carltons), so circa pick 24.
Could it be more like a Veszpremi for Everitt type trade than a draft pick? I'd say any compensation would be more in the 3rd round.

I'd prefer to keep Wally but not if Bevo can't find a spot for him

[Bulldog4life]

Could it be more like a Veszpremi for Everitt type trade than a draft pick? I'd say any compensation would be more in the 3rd round.

I'd prefer to keep Wally but not if Bevo can't find a spot for him

It will be harder for Wally next year with Libba back and if we get young Westy. Personally I hope we keep the son of a gun.

[soupman]

Ok revised list analysis:

Players we keep:
Suckling, Young, Bontempelli, Dunkley, Hunter, Trengove, Wood, Macrae, Cordy, Schache, McLean, Boyd, Richards, Liberatore, Lipinski, Naughton, Williams, Daniel, JJ, English

Players we keep but have question marks over future beyond 2019
Crozier, Adams, Gowers, Porter, Dale,

Players who may not be with us next season
Wallis - Coach doesn't rate him. Surely looks for a fa move.
Dahlhaus - Coach rates him. Is a liability this year. Potentially looks for a fa move but we will get nothing
Roughead - His best is mediocre now. Potentially stays as the depth ruck if he agrees to a cheap enough contract. Surely we aren't rushing to sign him up.
Biggs - Dropped off the face of the earth. If he cant imrpove his form enough to get a spot in a bottom four side then he is easy delist material.
Dickson - Injury prone. Struggles to have much of an impact when playing.
Morris - This is his last year. We have at leas 4 young talls that need to play ahead of him. I love him but its time.
Redpath - Club rates him but he is always injured and borderline best 22 when not.
Jong - Constantly on the verge of being a good player, but instead remains in the Jarrad Grant zone of promising so much but failing to deliver much more than a 6/10 performance.


Players who to this moment have given us no reason to retain them for another year
C. Smith - Always injured and when not just enhances our weaknesses. Has to go.
Campbell - We aren't gonna use him so why keep him.
Roberts - See Campbell, except with abut 10 guys ahead of him.
Webb - Still doesn't have a spot or shown anything at AFL level for years. I think he could still make it but not with us. Honeychurch - I guarantee he is on our list next year, but he is terrible.
Greene - If he can't get a game in a side crying out for clean efficient forwards then he can go.
Collins - Is about 5th or 6th in line in a stacked position.
Lynch - Hasn't got close to being picked in 3 years. Cut him.
R. Smith - Mediocre at best and injury prone.
NMM - Hasn't come close.
Picken - Can't believe we are even trying to get him back. Just retire him for his own sake. There is no gain for anyone trying to get him back in the side.

Thats an incredible 19 players who's immediate future with us could be short term. It's going to be a huge off-season.

[chef]

Tom Boyd trade bait at the end of the season?

Sadly hes just not going to make it with us and maybe time to cash in while he still has value.

[Bulldog4life]

Tom Boyd trade bait at the end of the season?

Sadly hes just not going to make it with us and maybe time to cash in while he still has value.

His wage would put other clubs off

[chef]

His wage would put other clubs off

Thats the worry. We have another 3 years of this coming up.

[bornadog]

Thats the worry. We have another 3 years of this coming up.

He is still only 22 years old, he has improvement left in him. Today was his worse game that I have seen.

[chef]

He is still only 22 years old, he has improvement left in him. Today was his worse game that I have seen.

Im not sure about the improvement as hes been playing at this consistent level for pretty much all of his career.

Thank god we got those two special games out of him or this would be the greatest trade *!*!*!*! up ever.

[anfo27]

Im hoping Boyd retires. I just can't stand the sight of him anymore. Is a liability more often than not but not the lone ranger there.

[bulldogtragic]

I've missed the game today. Was Tom played at full forward with good disposal to him, and dropped marks and missed goals. Or was he played out of position on Gawn in a blood bath?

[G-Mo77]

I've missed the game today. Was Tom played at full forward with good disposal to him, and dropped marks and missed goals. Or was he played out of position on Gawn in a blood bath?

I only watched until just after half time, mostly ruck. I saw him in the def 50 at one stage. We know how to develop our forwards down there. LOL. May as well get rid of him, we destroying the kid.

[anfo27]

I've missed the game today. Was Tom played at full forward with good disposal to him, and dropped marks and missed goals. Or was he played out of position on Gawn in a blood bath?

Wasn't at the game today & agree he is played out of position but he drops easy marks all the time wherever he is & misses easy shots at goal. Just can't see it BT. Can't see him ever turning into the player we hoped.

[bulldogtragic]

I only watched until just after half time, mostly ruck. I saw him in the def 50 at one stage. We know how to develop our forwards down there. LOL. May as well get rid of him, we destroying the kid.

We get a pick one KPP, we destroy him out of position, stuff his development as a forward, Barrett & co publicly flog him in the press... Why would our supporters parrot lines from anyone and not critically analyse if he has the causes and conditions to develop and succeed. I agree, the coaching panel is destroying the kid. If anyone needs trading out or retiring, it's those charged with his development at the club. Completely agree with your sentiments Gmo.

[bulldogtragic]

Wasn't at the game today & agree he is played out of position but he drops easy marks all the time wherever he is & misses easy shots at goal. Just can't see it BT. Can't see him ever turning into the player we hoped.

Before he came to club Tom was 70% goal accurate (better than Lockett) in TAC, NEAFL/GWS and initially with us when played as a forward. We had a dead eye kick for goal. He didn't start missing on purpose, but under our coaches that figures dropped. Is it more rucking impacting his legs (ie feeling too heavy), bad forward skill coaching. We've coached success out of this aspect of his game. The answer lies beneath Toms current accuracy. The solution lies in reversing this ASAP, not dropping him.

[chef]

Boyd just isnt mobile enough and his hands arent good enough to be a genuine KPF.

I guess if Bevos here long term it may be better for Tom to be elsewhere.

[AndrewP6]

Im hoping Boyd retires. I just can't stand the sight of him anymore. Is a liability more often than not but not the lone ranger there.

There's nothing like a post-game fly-off-the-handle comment to finish the night. Retire at 22....FFS.

To my eyes it's clearly a combination of not being allowed to develop in one spot, the team's horrible F50 entries, and the depression issues that kept him out of the game still affecting him.

[Bullies]

There's nothing like a post-game fly-off-the-handle comment to finish the night. Retire at 22....FFS.

To my eyes it's clearly a combination of not being allowed to develop in one spot, the team's horrible F50 entries, and the depression issues that kept him out of the game still affecting him. Lockett wouldn't get a kick with our forward set up and the skills we have. The guy doesn't have a hope. Our game plan is rubbish.

[bulldogtragic]

Lockett wouldn't get a kick with our forward set up and the skills we have. The guy doesn't have a hope. Our game plan is rubbish.

This. We could have the forward line from the last EJ SOO game (Lockett, Ablett, Lyon etc) and with our limited shithouse entries they'd be useless. At least in an SOO game they can crack the shits and go back to their clubs and avoid having our midfielders determine how successful their performances and careers will be.

I mean imagine you're a sales manager. The business owner told you can't select your sales staff, and if they don't do what they're meant to then your performance will be isolated and also your career will be stifled, despite these others being responsible for the function you have. That's Tom's spot in life: not in the job he knows and dependant on co-workers who aren't doing what they're meant to - and can't do anything about it. How about we don't judge his forward performance on substandard co-worker performance. Let's get him (& Schache) some standard or above standard co-workers and judge him then. If he's no good I will happily lead the chorus of 'I was wrong, sack him'. Until then 'please get him playing forward and also new co-workers to help him and team score goals'.

[bornadog]

Lockett wouldn't get a kick with our forward set up and the skills we have. The guy doesn't have a hope. Our game plan is rubbish.

It's not the game plan, it's the players lack of skills in executing it.

[Remi Moses]

I think Coventry Lockett Dunstall would struggle with our delivery and the forward half is completely useless

[Twodogs]

I think Coventry Lockett Dunstall would struggle with our delivery and the forward half is completely useless

Coventry would have been pretty old by that stage.

[chef]

Lockett kicked a lot of goals playing in worse sides.

[comrade]

Lockett kicked a lot of goals playing in worse sides.

I know it’s possible to put the era in context and things like that when comparing players but St Kilda in the late 80s/early 90s were total rubbish from what I can recall and it didn’t stop Plugger from dominating.

It’s just a complete mess at the moment: we have a game plan that seems incomprehensible, we have an entire team that can’t kick and we have a forward group that by and large lacks the ability to score goals.

If Boyd and Jesse Hogan swapped spots right now, I’m certain Hogan would still have kicked more goals for us than Boyd would have for them. One is just a natural goal scoring forward, the other isn’t unless he has a huge size advantage like Boyd did in his u/18 days.

[kruder]

Lockett wouldn't get a kick with our forward set up and the skills we have. The guy doesn't have a hope. Our game plan is rubbish.

I think its more than that. Its forward players not being able to settle build the chemistry required, you have to work together play the angles,it makes it hard when there is a different mix at nearly every ball up. You really notice when Dickson and Redpath( I know its rare) play together they lead create space for others the forward line looks totally different.

[anfo27]

There's nothing like a post-game fly-off-the-handle comment to finish the night. Retire at 22....FFS.

To my eyes it's clearly a combination of not being allowed to develop in one spot, the team's horrible F50 entries, and the depression issues that kept him out of the game still affecting him.

We give this guy far too many outs. Agree about being played out of position but what the hell does that have to do with dropping easy marks & missing easy goals from day dot at our club. Yeah he held them for a month in 2016 but other than that he never has.

[AndrewP6]

We give this guy far too many outs. Agree about being played out of position but what the hell does that have to do with dropping easy marks & missing easy goals from day dot at our club. Yeah he held them for a month in 2016 but other than that he never has.

He drops some marks, sure. But does he get a ton of wide open chances? As I said, I have no doubt the depression that kept him out for a lengthy period is still an issue. The goalkicking is a team wide issue.

[Bullies]

Ok revised list analysis:

Players we keep:
Suckling, Young, Bontempelli, Dunkley, Hunter, Trengove, Wood, Macrae, Cordy, Schache, McLean, Boyd, Richards, Liberatore, Lipinski, Naughton, Williams, Daniel, JJ, English

Players we keep but have question marks over future beyond 2019
Crozier, Adams, Gowers, Porter, Dale,

Players who may not be with us next season
Wallis - Coach doesn't rate him. Surely looks for a fa move.
Dahlhaus - Coach rates him. Is a liability this year. Potentially looks for a fa move but we will get nothing
Roughead - His best is mediocre now. Potentially stays as the depth ruck if he agrees to a cheap enough contract. Surely we aren't rushing to sign him up.
Biggs - Dropped off the face of the earth. If he cant imrpove his form enough to get a spot in a bottom four side then he is easy delist material.
Dickson - Injury prone. Struggles to have much of an impact when playing.
Morris - This is his last year. We have at leas 4 young talls that need to play ahead of him. I love him but its time.
Redpath - Club rates him but he is always injured and borderline best 22 when not.
Jong - Constantly on the verge of being a good player, but instead remains in the Jarrad Grant zone of promising so much but failing to deliver much more than a 6/10 performance.


Players who to this moment have given us no reason to retain them for another year
C. Smith - Always injured and when not just enhances our weaknesses. Has to go.
Campbell - We aren't gonna use him so why keep him.
Roberts - See Campbell, except with abut 10 guys ahead of him.
Webb - Still doesn't have a spot or shown anything at AFL level for years. I think he could still make it but not with us. Honeychurch - I guarantee he is on our list next year, but he is terrible.
Greene - If he can't get a game in a side crying out for clean efficient forwards then he can go.
Collins - Is about 5th or 6th in line in a stacked position.
Lynch - Hasn't got close to being picked in 3 years. Cut him.
R. Smith - Mediocre at best and injury prone.
NMM - Hasn't come close.
Picken - Can't believe we are even trying to get him back. Just retire him for his own sake. There is no gain for anyone trying to get him back in the side.

Thats an incredible 19 players who's immediate future with us could be short term. It's going to be a huge off-season. Wow. Looking at that list we appear to be well and truly. You can't cull everyone so we will be carrying baggage for years to come. Could be a long road. Agree as well with your analysis.

[S Coast Simon]

Been saying it for years his hands are to flat. He needs to roll them in a little bit. He goes up straight arms and flat hands. This needs to be trained out of his game. Arms a little bent and hands turned in a little. Come on coaches he should be a gun

[Twodogs]

Been saying it for years his hands are to flat. He needs to roll them in a little bit. He goes up straight arms and flat hands. This needs to be trained out of his game. Arms a little bent and hands turned in a little. Come on coaches he should be a gun


Soft hands we called them in cricket. The ball just nestles into them. When you are in the catching zone and it hits the palm of your hand you don't even feel it. Your hand doesn't close around the ball but the ball dissapears into your hand. At the start of training when you have hard hands is when you get all the bruising and sprained fingers.

[Ozza]

Before he came to club Tom was 70% goal accurate (better than Lockett) in TAC, NEAFL/GWS and initially with us when played as a forward. We had a dead eye kick for goal. He didn't start missing on purpose, but under our coaches that figures dropped. Is it more rucking impacting his legs (ie feeling too heavy), bad forward skill coaching. We've coached success out of this aspect of his game. The answer lies beneath Toms current accuracy. The solution lies in reversing this ASAP, not dropping him.

Surely the figures are skewed by being able to mark 15 metres out from goal against opponents 10 cms shorter than him.

There is nothing in Boyd's technique that suggests he would be a reliable kick at goal for the long term.

[Ozza]

Tom's game on the weekend was amongst his worst. But let's face it, he plays poorly most weeks and has only played one excellent game in his career.

To not get a single possession after half time, when most of it was spent rucking, is indefensible.

Even if we are all shouting in agreement, that he should be played forward instead of ruck - putting that aside, he should still be able to do SOMETHING in another position.

Its not everybody else's fault. It is Tom not measuring up. If his name wasn't Tom Boyd, and he wasn't on a million bucks a year - every single person on this forum would be saying that he should be delisted at the end of this season if he doesn't start to show something in the back half of this year.

[bulldogtragic]

Surely the figures are skewed by being able to mark 15 metres out from goal against opponents 10 cms shorter than him.

There is nothing in Boyd's technique that suggests he would be a reliable kick at goal for the long term.

Maybe or maybe not in the TAC, I can't say with certainty, other than his final year was 24.9 playing as a KPF.

2014 at GWS 8.3
2015 at Footscray 12.5
2015 at WBFC 16.6
2016 at Footscray 7.4
2017 at Footscray 8.3

That's 51.21 against tall men when playing as a KPF, not rucking from 2016 onwards. So roughly what he was doing in the last TAC year. So from 2013 as a KPF before moving into the ruck he kicked 75.30 across TAC, NEAFL, VFL & AFL. They're just the stats he has against his name. He seems very, very accurate against kids and men before the ruck move.

[Ozza]

Maybe or maybe not in the TAC, I can't say with certainty, other than his final year was 24.9 playing as a KPF.

2014 at GWS 8.3
2015 at Footscray 12.5
2015 at WBFC 16.6
2016 at Footscray 7.4
2017 at Footscray 8.3

That's 51.21 against tall men when playing as a KPF, not rucking from 2016 onwards. So roughly what he was doing in the last TAC year. So from 2013 as a KPF before moving into the ruck he kicked 75.30 across TAC, NEAFL, VFL & AFL. They're just the stats he has against his name. He seems very, very accurate against kids and men before the ruck move.

Also kicked 13.12 for WB in 2016, and 5.4 this season, which I understand doesn't help your stats - and you mentioned about him rucking as an excuse for missing, but reality is, he is not going to escape having ruck duties and has to deal with it. Because if he doesn't ruck, he doesn't play.

But answer me this - are you confident went Tom marks the ball either 40+ metres out, or on an angle? From 50m, he often shanks them altogether and doesn't score.

Look, there are worse kicks than him, plenty, but apart from when he gets a free within 20m, I'm not calling him a deadeye, not by a long way.

[bulldogtragic]

Also kicked 13.12 for WB in 2016, and 5.4 this season, which I understand doesn't help your stats - and you mentioned about him rucking as an excuse for missing, but reality is, he is not going to escape having ruck duties and has to deal with it. Because if he doesn't ruck, he doesn't play.

But answer me this - are you confident went Tom marks the ball either 40+ metres out, or on an angle? From 50m, he often shanks them altogether and doesn't score.

Look, there are worse kicks than him, plenty, but apart from when he gets a free within 20m, I'm not calling him a deadeye, not by a long way.

I didn't include those numbers not out of convenience, but pointing out that perhaps rucking has impacted this aspect of his game. By highlighting what is was before the move. If we included the numbers you put up then he's still at 69.37 playing against men, including rucking. That's well over 60% accuracy by our combined numbers. I think that's pretty good and I think we should be trying to work out how to get him back to 60+%. He clearly has the capacity to be very accurate, but something is impacting it. I'm generally happy to see the ball in his hand. He's vastly more likely to kick a goal than very many in the team right now, so I'm confident enough with the caveat of his accuracy numbers falling and hoping the club and he can turn it around fast.

[Ozza]

I didn't include those numbers not out of convenience, but pointing out that perhaps rucking has impacted this aspect of his game. By highlighting what is was before the move. If we included the numbers you put up then he's still at 59.27 playing against men, including rucking. That's over 66% accuracy by our combined numbers. I think that's pretty good and I think we should be trying to work out how to get him back to 60+%. He clearly has the capacity to be very accurate, but something is impacting it. I'm generally happy to see the ball in his hand. He's vastly more likely to kick a goal than very many in the team right now, so I'm confident enough with the caveat of his accuracy numbers falling and hoping the club and he can turn it around fast.

Ok, if I agree that he has the capacity to be accurate. How do we solve the problem of him not getting the footy?

I dunno, I've watched this kid with a knot in my stomach for 4 years now, hoping desperately he would show something that would make me feel he isn't a complete bust. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to cop that its everybody else's fault. Tom has to play where is best for the team, the team can't be built around what is best for Tom - so at a minimum, he needs to have some presence and some physicality and a willingness to compete with a ferocity demanded by the level. We've had English in his first season running around getting 15-20 disposals and 20+ hit outs being far less physically ready than Tom.

What Gawn and Grundy were able to do to Tom the last couple of weeks, showed up an embarrassing gulf between elite competitiveness and not. Anyone can attempt to follow up on the ground like Grundy does, or push hard after the stoppage like Gawn does. That stuff is about attitude.

[bulldogtragic]

Ok, if I agree that he has the capacity to be accurate. How do we solve the problem of him not getting the footy?

I dunno, I've watched this kid with a knot in my stomach for 4 years now, hoping desperately he would show something that would make me feel he isn't a complete bust. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to cop that its everybody else's fault. Tom has to play where is best for the team, the team can't be built around what is best for Tom - so at a minimum, he needs to have some presence and some physicality and a willingness to compete with a ferocity demanded by the level. We've had English in his first season running around getting 15-20 disposals and 20+ hit outs being far less physically ready than Tom.

What Gawn and Grundy were able to do to Tom the last couple of weeks, showed up an embarrassing gulf between elite competitiveness and not. Anyone can attempt to follow up on the ground like Grundy does, or push hard after the stoppage like Gawn does. That stuff is about attitude.

This is the issue other posters have raised about gameplan versus the cattle to pull it off. Tom's been smashed the last couple of weeks no doubt, and he's got to go into review meetings and own it like everyone else. These criticisms will no doubt be raised internally.

My position has always been to develop him as a KPF, the role he knows best, with a few minutes in the ruck each quarter to help out English/Roughy. I'd like to see Tom & Schache work on a forward duo synergy together. I'd like to see him get much better inside 50's so we can see what he's truly capable of with the footy in hand. But my view isn't that of the coach. What I think is likely to happen is vicious circle where Tom has to play more ruck, then he probably under performs again as a ruck, gets dropped, earns promotion and it repeats. There's no easy solution as far as I can see right now and I'm not sure where this story progresses or ends at. But I still see a very good player somewhere there, it's just not on display. But I'm happy to believe this right now.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Do any of Hawkins, Kennedy, Franklin, Riewoldt, T. Lynch, McCartin, Waite/Brown, Curnow etc. spend more than 5 minutes in the ruck?

Not saying Boyd is a proven forward (McCartin isn't either) but we've never given him an opportunity to actually develop as a forward. We've only given him time to 'rest' as a forward.

Is Boyd as good as we hoped? Nope, but we haven't helped him either.

Our coaching group is too clever for themselves. It's not like Boyd is providing us with such great value as a ruck that we're hurting ourselves by playing him forward.

Then again, we can't even fix our goal kicking in 3+ years so even if we did play Boyd forward my faith that we could even develop him as one is low.

I'm praying we clean out our coaching group and get back to basics instead of turning a blue chip young key forward into a ruckman and two AA defenders into forwards (JJ/Wood).

[Sedat]

Do any of Hawkins, Kennedy, Franklin, Riewoldt, T. Lynch, McCartin, Waite/Brown, Curnow etc. spend more than 5 minutes in the ruck?

Not saying Boyd is a proven forward (McCartin isn't either) but we've never given him an opportunity to actually develop as a forward. We've only given him time to 'rest' as a forward.

Is Boyd as good as we hoped? Nope, but we haven't helped him either.

Our coaching group is too clever for themselves. It's not like Boyd is providing us with such great value as a ruck that we're hurting ourselves by playing him forward.
He has never had a sustained run as key forward in his time with us - I hope he gets the chance to do so for the remainder of the season (if his form warrants it). We have Rough, Campbell, English (when he returns from injury) and even Trengove who can do the grunt work as #1 ruck - I fail to see the harm in giving Boyd and Schache some continuity in the key forward posts for the remainder of the season.

[Ozza]

He has never had a sustained run as key forward in his time with us - I hope he gets the chance to do so for the remainder of the season (if his form warrants it). We have Rough, Campbell, English (when he returns from injury) and even Trengove who can do the grunt work as #1 ruck - I fail to see the harm in giving Boyd and Schache some continuity in the key forward posts for the remainder of the season.

Yes, I would agree with this. I'm all for giving it a go.

Doubt it will happen, as forward pressure seems to be a higher priority than forward targets nowadays.

[Sedat]

Yes, I would agree with this. I'm all for giving it a go.

Doubt it will happen, as forward pressure seems to be a higher priority than forward targets nowadays.
Most teams are running with 2 tall forwards, and 4 smaller forwards to provide the defensive heat

North - Brown/Waite
Carlton - Casboult/Curnow (McKay and Kerr in recent weeks)
Adelaide - Jenkins/Walker (when fit)
Melbourne - McDonald/Hogan
Brisbane - McStay/Hipwood (McInernay in there most weeks as well)
Geelong - Hawkins/Esava (before injury)
West Coke - Kennedy/Darling (plus Waterman for good measure)
Essendon - Hooker/Daniher (McKernan and Stewart at times as well)
Richmond have Caddy playing tall alongside Riewoldt

Boyd staying close to home as the bail-out option and Schache as the connector between the arcs is well worth persisting with, so long as the support cast work much harder at locking the ball in - our smaller forwards have been awful in this area the last 18 months when they were competition elite in 2015/16. Forward pressure was one of our great assets that has fallen away dramatically since 2016, in stark contrast to most of the rest of the competition.

[bornadog]

What Gawn and Grundy were able to do to Tom the last couple of weeks, showed up an embarrassing gulf between elite competitiveness and not. Anyone can attempt to follow up on the ground like Grundy does, or push hard after the stoppage like Gawn does. That stuff is about attitude.

I agree with your assessment of Boyd at this stage of his career.

When did Gawn come good as a ruckman? He is currently 26 years old. We know that big guys don't come good till their mid 20's and I am prepared to see how Boyd goes in the next few years before writing him off.

[azabob]

I agree with your assessment of Boyd at this stage of his career.

When did Gawn come good as a ruckman? He is currently 26 years old. We know that big guys don't come good till their mid 20's and I am prepared to see how Boyd goes in the next few years before writing him off.

Probably last year? Mind you he had what 2 or 3 ACL injuries very early on in his career

[Sedat]

I agree with your assessment of Boyd at this stage of his career.

When did Gawn come good as a ruckman? He is currently 26 years old. We know that big guys don't come good till their mid 20's and I am prepared to see how Boyd goes in the next few years before writing him off.
The next few years??? I'm a big supporter of Boydy but he cannot continue at the current rate of output (whether as a forward or ruck) "for the next few years". We (and he) should expect sharp improvement in consistency for the rest of the season and beyond otherwise he will struggle to hold his place in the seniors. Not like we don't have depth in either rucks or key forward stocks.

He still has a little time on his side (not a few years!) but he needs to start impacting at senior level on a more consistent basis - week to week, qtr to qtr, contest to contest.

[bornadog]

The next few years??? I'm a big supporter of Boydy but he cannot continue at the current rate of output (whether as a forward or ruck) "for the next few years". We (and he) should expect sharp improvement in consistency for the rest of the season and beyond otherwise he will struggle to hold his place in the seniors. Not like we don't have depth in either rucks or key forward stocks.

He still has a little time on his side (not a few years!) but he needs to start impacting at senior level on a more consistent basis - week to week, qtr to qtr, contest to contest.

I realise that he has to continually improve. What I am saying is he is 22 years old and by the time he gets to his mid 20's I am expecting him to be a star, otherwise we find someone else.

I would prefer Boyd stays at FF, Schache at CHF and English doing the ruck work - in the next few years. Those three are all young, ie 22, 20 and 20 and we can't expect them to perform at the level of mature AFL big guys. We do expect them to do alot more than current.

[macca]

Im going to put it out there, put JJ up for trade at end of year. Teams have worked him out in defense. Not sure how much longer the team can afford him to learn how to be a forward. Cannot take a contested mark, and his tackling is not up there to keep the ball enough in the forward line. He would command some currency, and could get us back into the second round in this year's draft. Essendon could be ideal candidates to add to their winning trade week carnival.

But its mentioned in other threads a few players up for trade/delisting : Wallis, Biggs, Webb, HC and Campbell, but really we could add anyone up for trade which will improve our list.

If the draft is deep, we may be able to uneath a few gems deeper in the 3rd to 4th(hopefully!) rounds.

[Remi Moses]

Not for me . JJ’s confused with his role , and I’ve never seen a player look more confused .
He is not a forward and it’s time the coaches realised this .No leading patterns, and didn’t know whether to hit up , stay back , and no defensive pressure .

[comrade]

The thing about all the other key forwards listed is they can do one thing Boyd can’t: mark the footy.

I can’t think of a single player in the AFL with a worst set of hands.

[Mantis]

The thing about all the other key forwards listed is they can do one thing Boyd can’t: mark the footy.

I can’t think of a single player in the AFL with a worst set of hands.

The one mark (one *!*!*!*!ing mark!) that he did take on the weekend burst through his hands and he somehow clutched it his his body after it bounced off his face.

He makes the simplest thing look ridiculosuly hard.

[Bulldog4life]

The thing about all the other key forwards listed is they can do one thing Boyd can’t: mark the footy.

I can’t think of a single player in the AFL with a worst set of hands.

The club should invite, the best mark that I have ever seen, down to training to give Tom some pointers. His name is Gary Dempsey. Still closely follows the club. I am sure he would do it.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Been saying it for years his hands are to flat. He needs to roll them in a little bit. He goes up straight arms and flat hands. This needs to be trained out of his game. Arms a little bent and hands turned in a little. Come on coaches he should be a gun

And he doesn’t spread his fingers. You need to CLASP that ball. It’s fundamentally bad technique and I can’t believe it hasn’t been coached out of him.

[bornadog]

And he doesn’t spread his fingers. You need to CLASP that ball. It’s fundamentally bad technique and I can’t believe it hasn’t been coached out of him.

I would also like to see marks on the chest where possible. I hate seeing arms out straight and hands up to try and take a mark like an overhead mark.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would also like to see marks on the chest where possible. I hate seeing arms out straight and hands up to try and take a mark like an overhead mark.

Problem is he drops THEM too.

[Grantysghost]

The one mark (one *!*!*!*!ing mark!) that he did take on the weekend burst through his hands and he somehow clutched it his his body after it bounced off his face.

He makes the simplest thing look ridiculosuly hard.

Clarko made reference to Boyd when complaining about the defensive tactics employed these days. Boyd seems to get pushed out of nearly every contest just enough to hinder his run at the ball. Either that or he's competing against two or more players. I'm willing to give him time, would like to see him played forward / ruck rather than the other way around; 80/20 split. Last year has probably set him back 12 months. Our well documented issues delivering inside forward 50 also hasn't helped. I do worry about his intensity or perceived lack thereof. Like to see him develop into more of a young leader like Bonti (granted I know nothing re his leadership off field).

[Axe Man]

I would also like to see marks on the chest where possible. I hate seeing arms out straight and hands up to try and take a mark like an overhead mark.

So your opponent can easily punch the ball away? Taking the ball in front is a basic skill at local footy level, all AFL players should be able to do it in their sleep. The only time you take a chest mark is when you know you are clear.

[bornadog]

So your opponent can easily punch the ball away? Taking the ball in front is a basic skill at local footy level, all AFL players should be able to do it in their sleep. The only time you take a chest mark is when you know you are clear.

Even when he is clear he puts the arms out.

[The bulldog tragician]

And he doesn’t spread his fingers. You need to CLASP that ball. It’s fundamentally bad technique and I can’t believe it hasn’t been coached out of him.
I still think for Tom it is all about confidence. In his first game back this year, he started at full forward, led strongly and clunked the ball. Before too long though he was at centre bounces.

If he could mark the ball so well in the grand final with 100000 watching and everything at stake, what has gone wrong?

[jeemak]

I still think for Tom it is all about confidence. In his first game back this year, he started at full forward, led strongly and clunked the ball. Before too long though he was at centre bounces.

If he could mark the ball so well in the grand final with 100000 watching and everything at stake, what has gone wrong?

I think it's equal parts concentration, confidence and technique. If the first two falter, the issues with the next come to the fore.

He's taken a few really solid contested marks this year and across his career, he can clearly do it.

[jeemak]

Not sure this is an overwhelming sign that Wines is staying at Port.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/ollie-wines-weighing-up-next-contract-decision-20180605-p4zjhy.html

We need to be chucking a shed load of money at him to bring him across. Given his age and abilities our first round pick (5, give or take) would be worth it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Not sure this is an overwhelming sign that Wines is staying at Port.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/ollie-wines-weighing-up-next-contract-decision-20180605-p4zjhy.html

We need to be chucking a shed load of money at him to bring him across. Given his age and abilities our first round pick (5, give or take) would be worth it.

Playing devil's advocate, is he what we need?

He's not overly quick, he's not a goal kicking mid and he hasn't got great skills.

I'd describe him as an adequate kick who is an absolute bull with leadership qualities. Could we do with him? Absolutely, but not sure he addresses some of our main concerns in the midfield and given what he'd cost, I don't think it would be a clear cut decision.

Those who know the draft well might be able to comment better.

I could also be convinced otherwise.

[Mofra]

Not sure this is an overwhelming sign that Wines is staying at Port.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/ollie-wines-weighing-up-next-contract-decision-20180605-p4zjhy.html

We need to be chucking a shed load of money at him to bring him across. Given his age and abilities our first round pick (5, give or take) would be worth it.
I'd rather target Gaff as a FA and keep our pick.

If Wallis is gone as they say we're probably only looking at a couple of hundred k extra to get him. He's far more like what we need.

[jeemak]

I would suggest it's highly unlikely we'll be landing Gaff or relying on landing Gaff at this point in time, plus with both Libba and Wallis under a cloud I would suggest some hard running grunt is well and truly needed.

[Happy Days]

Not sure this is an overwhelming sign that Wines is staying at Port.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/ollie-wines-weighing-up-next-contract-decision-20180605-p4zjhy.html

We need to be chucking a shed load of money at him to bring him across. Given his age and abilities our first round pick (5, give or take) would be worth it.

I just so happened to hear the SEN interview and he was far from convincing - basically admitted to fielding interest from other clubs and walked his comments from a few weeks ago about being a certainty to stay all the way back.

Putting two and two together I think something has happened to make him at least think about changing his mind. I'd love to have him.

[Remi Moses]

He’d be a great fit for us .
If we lost Dahl and Mitch you’d think we’d have some room .

[Remi Moses]

I just so happened to hear the SEN interview and he was far from convincing - basically admitted to fielding interest from other clubs and walked his comments from a few weeks ago about being a certainty to stay all the way back.

Putting two and two together I think something has happened to make him at least think about changing his mind. I'd love to have him.
Seems to be a bit of European football mentality now with managers trying to squeeze more money out of a club .

[Mofra]

He’d be a great fit for us .
If we lost Dahl and Mitch you’d think we’d have some room .
I'm wondering if we'd need room even if we signed those two. They certainly wouldn't be on any more than their current contracts (perhaps less), ditto Roughy, and the cap has increased.

Picken may well retire as well and we seem set for a largish clean out at the end of the year (thinking 6-8 list changes) after chasing Hurley recently. If Moz goes around again he'd probably be on reduced dollars as well.

Either way if we have the desire we should be in the hunt for Gaff (to keep the pick that we'd need for Wines) with the cap space to get him.

[Grantysghost]

Wines would be a massive get

[Sedat]

Not sure of his contract status but I'd like us to have a serious crack at Chad Wingard. He seems to be treading water and has at least a couple of extra gears he can hit. Might also relish the opportunity to leave the SA fishbowl.

EDIT - he's up end of 2019

[bulldogtragic]

I want us to be like most clubs, enjoying dealing with JMac if our pick 5 is on the table. Kelly or Congiolio would suffice.

[bulldogtragic]

Not sure of his contract status but I'd like us to have a serious crack at Chad Wingard. He seems to be treading water and has at least a couple of extra gears he can hit. Might also relish the opportunity to leave the SA fishbowl.

Good mates with Trengove too. His tweet last year saying he hopes to play with Trengove again was awfully interesting.

[kruder]

Good mates with Trengove too. His tweet last year saying he hopes to play with Trengove again was awfully interesting.

Ahh thats why we signed Trengove now I get it.

[bornadog]

Ahh thats why we signed Trengove now I get it.

I know you arenot a fan of Trengove, but he has been very good the last 3 weeks playing in the backline. I would like him to stay down there and gel with the other back 5

[Bullies]

I know you arenot a fan of Trengove, but he has been very good the last 3 weeks playing in the backline. I would like him to stay down there and gel with the other back 5 Trengove got cained on the weekend by the Melbourne talls. They had a ball. He has no awareness as to where his opponent is going or where he is.

[Mantis]

I know you arenot a fan of Trengove, but he has been very good the last 3 weeks playing in the backline. I would like him to stay down there and gel with the other back 5

Which other 5 do you have in mind?

[1eyedog]

Trengove got cained on the weekend by the Melbourne talls. They had a ball. He has no awareness as to where his opponent is going or where he is.

He's been good the last few weeks. I'd challenge any key back to hold his own against the onslaught on the weekend. He was up against some good users up the ground and it was coming in regularly in the second half.

[bornadog]

Which other 5 do you have in mind?

yeah that is hard to pick with so many rolling through there. I would say Wood, Morris, Williams and Suckling are pretty well set there as is Cordy when he gets back.

[Sedat]

Which other 5 do you have in mind?
Well Suckers picks himself ;)

[Mofra]

yeah that is hard to pick with so many rolling through there. I would say Wood, Morris, Williams and Suckling are pretty well set there as is Cordy when he gets back.
We tend to play 7 backs and rotate one runner through the bench, so I'd add Naughton. He seems a lock when fit already even though it's his first season.
Richards as well - he was marginal for a couple of games after his debut but is just looking more and more comfortable.

If Morris plays on next year it will almost certainly be his last and Suckling will try for the NFL sooner rather than later. It's still in a transition phase for mine.

[Mantis]

yeah that is hard to pick with so many rolling through there. I would say Wood, Morris, Williams and Suckling are pretty well set there as is Cordy when he gets back.

Can we play play Morris & Cordy in the same defence? Both aren't big enough to take the big guys, even though we ask them to, and aren't elite interceptors or users of the ball.

If and when we have a fit list it's going to be hard to hit 10 into 7 spots.


Well Suckers picks himself ;)

It hurts.

[bornadog]

Can we play play Morris & Cordy in the same defence? Both aren't big enough to take the big guys, even though we ask them to, and aren't elite interceptors or users of the ball.

If and when we have a fit list it's going to be hard to hit 10 into 7 spots.

Morris really doesn't play the talls anymore, or shouldn't.

JJ is another, but he is playing more wing now, which is where I like him.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

JJ is another, but he is playing more wing now, which is where I like him.

Why?

JJ has been very poor playing across half forward and the wing.

He should be dropped IMO.

That aside, clearly he's a half back flanker who *may* be able to offer stints elsewhere but he certainly shouldn't be playing bulk minutes in the midfield or forward because his impact is very limited.