Can Fletcher Roberts bounce back and take a key role in Defence?

[bornadog]

http://s.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/WesternBulldogs/Images/WEIGHTS_FletcherRoberts.jpg

Fletch is still only 24 years old and a premiership fullback. Can he bounce back in 2018 and get back to being best 22?

This year he seems to have had an injury free pre-season (that I know of), so would be primed to show his best, but with new players coming in like Trengove, where does it leave Roberts?

[GVGjr]

I think he can despite having Adams and Trengove in the mix for a spot in the back line. I wonder if he could also be tried as a key forward? He has some decent instincts up forward.

[Go_Dogs]

He's been treading water for a few years now, however has proven to be capable as a back up and probably maintains his list spot unless he falls further back in the pecking order. He probably can't play in the same side as Trengove or Collins (at AFL level) because they all have limitations with speed/mobility so I suspect he's not an automatic selection, but who knows. Trengove struggled for a game towards years end at the Power and Collins still seems a way off being a regular contributor.

[Twodogs]

I think he can despite having Adams and Trengove in the mix for a spot in the back line. I wonder if he could also be tried as a key forward? He has some decent instincts up forward.


I still remember that 65 metre after the siren barrel for Footscray against Richmond in 2014 that got us the double chance and ultimately the premiership. Nobody else on our list could have done that.


He's been treading water for a few years now, however has proven to be capable as a back up and probably maintains his list spot unless he falls further back in the pecking order. He probably can't play in the same side as Trengove or Collins (at AFL level) because they all have limitations with speed/mobility so I suspect he's not an automatic selection, but who knows. Trengove struggled for a game towards years end at the Power and Collins still seems a way off being a regular contributor.

I still think that Port found out that Trengove had committed to us and that's why he played out the last few weeks at SANFL level. He was persona non grata. Why else would they have gone into a final so short in defence? He's a much better player than a couple of the blokes they went with that night.

[SonofScray]

Yes.

He is good enough. That bomb after the siren in the VFL and a few of his marks and overall performances at AFL level tell us he is. I'm not sure he is the best fit for Bevo, who wants versatility, he has the tools of being a decent swingman a la Hunter from WCE but I think he might be just an old fashioned, meat and potatoes FB.

I like those type of players. Always room on the list for one who can do a job, at whatever level we ask.

[Twodogs]

Yes.

He is good enough. That bomb after the siren in the VFL and a few of his marks and overall performances at AFL level tell us he is. I'm not sure he is the best fit for Bevo, who wants versatility, he has the tools of being a decent swingman a la Hunter from WCE but I think he might be just an old fashioned, meat and potatoes FB.

I like those type of players. Always room on the list for one who can do a job, at whatever level we ask.


Why is that SOS? Lack of belief, lack of skill? I see him as a player who can play both ends too but think he will end up as part of the grunt instead. As you say the blokes who provide the grunt are valuable but Fletch could be more.

[Testekill]

Why is that SOS? Lack of belief, lack of skill? I see him as a player who can play both ends too but think he will end up as part of the grunt instead. As you say the blokes who provide the grunt are valuable but Fletch could be more.

Not enough pace to get seperation and not physically strong enough to wrestle in the contest. As a full back he uses his long arms really well which give him a lot of perceived height in the contest but he just isn't going to beat guys like Talia & Rance.

[Twodogs]

Not enough pace to get seperation and not physically strong enough to wrestle in the contest. As a full back he uses his long arms really well which give him a lot of perceived height in the contest but he just isn't going to beat guys like Talia & Rance.


A lack of pace and strength is going to make life for an AFL defender difficult.

[Testekill]

A lack of pace and strength is going to make life for an AFL defender difficult.

It's why he was great in the grand final; we slowed down their ball movement which let him not be exploited for pace so that he could spoil the ball away.
He still has his weaknesses but he's probably a Bulldog for life because he knows his role, is good enough to come in and play it but isn't a big enough star to attract many offers.

edit: The perceived height is actually why Roberts is a far better player than Michael Talia. Outside of the fact that Talia was thick as two planks while Roberts has a lot of football IQ, Talia had little t-rex arms which limited how effective he could be in the air while Roberts could sneak an arm in.

[SonofScray]

Why is that SOS? Lack of belief, lack of skill? I see him as a player who can play both ends too but think he will end up as part of the grunt instead. As you say the blokes who provide the grunt are valuable but Fletch could be more.

Not a massive bag of tricks. Just dont see him as a guy that will out right win the footy and create opportunities offensively with his hand/foot skills. More likely to get himself into good positions and halve a contest aerially. Tie up more talented opponents. Chase, block space etc.he can do that and do it well.

[Bulldog4life]

Fletch has proven he can play a role. Played all his junior career in the forward line so could be the perfect swingman. A solid citizen I hope he can make one of the positions in the team his own. Time will tell.

[Mantis]

He still has his weaknesses but he's probably a Bulldog for life because he knows his role, is good enough to come in and play it but isn't a big enough star to attract many offers.



Really? If he wasn't re-signed at the mid point of the year (which was premature) given his poor back half of the year he probably would've been delisted given a raw 18 yo was given preference to a role in defence.

As mentioned Fletch's lack of pace, physical attributes and lack of physicality in the contest means he is going to be up against it to forge out a successful career at the club and starts 2018 a long way back.. will watch with interest to how he shapes up.

[Testekill]

Really? If he wasn't re-signed at the mid point of the year (which was premature) given his poor back half of the year he probably would've been delisted given a raw 18 yo was given preference to a role in defence.


He's dirt cheap and knows his position. Getting someone in for a similar price is tough since they'll have to learn new systems and if they're as cheap as Roberts then they're not going to be particularly good.

[westbulldog]

2018 will be his make or break season imo, I hope he makes it, seems a decent young bloke.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He's up against it.

He's not quick and he's not strong - you're giving a lot away as a key defender with those two disadvantages.

Cuts angles and reads the play well, uses the pill pretty well but there's a lot of competition for spots. Trengove, Adams, Cordy and Morris are all well ahead. I think Roberts is ahead of Young and Collins despite the backend of last year, but I also expect those two to improve. Particularly Collins - it's his last chance. I wouldn't be surprised if Naughton overtakes all three of them (Young, Collins and Roberts).

[bornadog]

Particularly Collins - it's his last chance.

Just turned 20 years old and Lewis Young almost exactly a year younger. Both have birthdays in December and Naughton a further year back, born in November.

I think we give them a couple of more years before they make an impact

[GVGjr]

He's up against it.

He's not quick and he's not strong - you're giving a lot away as a key defender with those two disadvantages.

Cuts angles and reads the play well, uses the pill pretty well but there's a lot of competition for spots. Trengove, Adams, Cordy and Morris are all well ahead. I think Roberts is ahead of Young and Collins despite the backend of last year, but I also expect those two to improve. Particularly Collins - it's his last chance. I wouldn't be surprised if Naughton overtakes all three of them (Young, Collins and Roberts).

Particularly harsh on Collins I would have thought. I know he looks older than his years but he should be given this year and maybe next to measure up.

I don't mind having Roberts on the list despite his limitations. He was unlucky to be dropped last year when he was but unless all the other key defenders stand up this year he's not a bad insurance option to cover a key defensive or even a key forward role.

[soupman]

Interestingly though Fletcher polled well in the best and fairest right up until 2 rounds before he was dropped, so the coaches obviously like him when he is playing.

[GVGjr]

Interestingly though Fletcher polled well in the best and fairest right up until 2 rounds before he was dropped, so the coaches obviously like him when he is playing.

It was a strange omission because after a good start he was dropped based on 2 average weeks.
Never the less it's now on him to get back into the side and with Adams returning, the recruitment of Trengove and a bit of excitement around Lewis Young let alone Cordy, Morris and Wood etc he has some work to do in an effort to establish himself as a senior player.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Particularly harsh on Collins I would have thought. I know he looks older than his years but he should be given this year and maybe next to measure up.

I don't mind having Roberts on the list despite his limitations. He was unlucky to be dropped last year when he was but unless all the other key defenders stand up this year he's not a bad insurance option to cover a key defensive or even a key forward role.

I don't want us keeping Collins just because he's tall. He needs to show something this year, even if it means becoming a very good VFL defender. I'm not concerned if he doesn't play 10+ AFL games, but he absolutely needs to make strides forward and particularly in the areas that he has struggled.

[hujsh]

I don't want us keeping Collins just because he's tall. He needs to show something this year, even if it means becoming a very good VFL defender. I'm not concerned if he doesn't play 10+ AFL games, but he absolutely needs to make strides forward and particularly in the areas that he has struggled.
From all reports he's already there as of the 2nd half of last year. Even doing a decent job on smaller blokes when required.

[GVGjr]

I don't want us keeping Collins just because he's tall. He needs to show something this year, even if it means becoming a very good VFL defender. I'm not concerned if he doesn't play 10+ AFL games, but he absolutely needs to make strides forward and particularly in the areas that he has struggled.

So do we put Tim English under the same microscope at the end of this year or do we acknowledge that the taller players take time?
I think English is actually older than Collins FWIW

I agree Collins has to start showing some signs but I think some expectations on longer term project players can be premature.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

So do we put Tim English under the same microscope at the end of this year or do we acknowledge that the taller players take time?
I think English is actually older than Collins FWIW

I agree Collins has to start showing some signs but I think some expectations on longer term project players can be premature.

English has already shown more than Collins in the little he's played IMO. He's also a lot less physically developed.

I don't mind taking a longer term view if the players warrant it - ie. Bailey Dale to a degree. We knew Dale was going to take longer than Daniel, McLean and Webb. At this stage, albeit not watching him closely, I haven't seen a lot to suggest Collins has a certain future in the game.

[Twodogs]

So do we put Tim English under the same microscope at the end of this year or do we acknowledge that the taller players take time?
I think English is actually older than Collins FWIW

I agree Collins has to start showing some signs but I think some expectations on longer term project players can be premature.

I've been thinking about this. In this circumstance when we compare player's development what's more important do you think-length of time on a list or a player's age? I think it should tend more towards the length of time on the list. Anyway I think you're right we should be taking a longer term view of Collins' development. He's not immune from expectation but I think we are going to have to give him some time to learn his craft. I think of the two that English will establish himself first.

[bornadog]

I think English is actually older than Collins FWIW .

Tim is 4 months older.

[Bulldog4life]

I thought Collins did show improvement last season in the VFL.

[Testekill]

I thought Collins did show improvement last season in the VFL.

Yeah I thought that Collins was actually looking pretty damn good before his season ended due to injury.

[bornadog]

Well Roberts had a shocking year playing only one or two games. Where to from here?

[bulldogtragic]

Well Roberts had a shocking year playing only one or two games. Where to from here?

See out another contracted year. Bank the Cheques. Send love heart emojis to JMac on messenger. Same same.

[GVGjr]

Well Roberts had a shocking year playing only one or two games. Where to from here?

He's a back up player at the moment and can probably play a bit at both ends of the ground when needed.

I'm not sure what he needs to do to be a regular senior footballer again but he's a great bloke to have at the club and it goes without saying that he needs to make the most of any chances he gets.

[jeemak]

If all goes well and badly at the same time, retained on the list he could play a final.

The thing about Fletch is you know what you're going to get. In 2015 against Tex with our whole ground defencive structures in the shit Fletch was always going to have a bad time.

In 2016 when our full ground defencive structure was amazing Fletch was good enough to fit in that structure.

He's an exceptionally talented tall player with limited athletic capabilities. He's not going to get worse as he gets older, just maybe slower and he isn't there yet.

If we're a well structured and well performed side next year, he'll be a more than reasonable back up if called upon.

I get that shite players sometimes play in flags in bit part roles, but respect needs to be given to Fletch for what he did in a well structured campaign to bring us the ultimate success. He isn't s shit player.

[GVGjr]

If all goes well and badly at the same time, retained on the list he could play a final.

The thing about Fletch is you know what you're going to get. In 2015 against Tex with our whole ground defencive structures in the shit Fletch was always going to have a bad time.

In 2016 when our full ground defencive structure was amazing Fletch was good enough to fit in that structure.

He's an exceptionally talented tall player with limited athletic capabilities. He's not going to get worse as he gets older, just maybe slower and he isn't there yet.

If we're a well structured and well performed side next year, he'll be a more than reasonable back up if called upon.

I get that shite players sometimes play in flags in bit part roles, but respect needs to be given to Fletch for what he did in a well structured campaign to bring us the ultimate success. He isn't s shit player.

He's not a good mover around the ground and has never been able to get his aerobic base as high as it needs to be. He has learned to cut angles because when matched against the more mobile forwards he simply struggles to keep up with them. He's also not physically strong either and can get pushed aside.
Having said all that he's worth having on the list because he can come in and play a few positions for us.

[AshMac]

Be nice to see him take another step forward. He has all the physical attributes to be a handy player but seems he struggles with the footy side - how to position, where to run, decision making under pressure etc - just looks a little lost out there. If it clicked for him then surely he could find a regular spot in the 22. With Adams gone it’s 2019 or never

[westbulldog]

He is an honest trier and glad he has a premiership medal, Very much a fringe player however and this year is make or break.

[Rocket Science]

Fletch needs the assistance of well performed, and well-organised troops around him. He's an adequate foot soldier on those terms, but as we've seen struggles at the top level if not afforded those luxuries.

A key defender who's too slight for the big blokes and too slow for the quick blokes isn't quite the prototype for the modern game.

[Smads57]

Having watched him play a number of VFL games in 2018, I thiink Fletch still has a lot to offer our AFL team

[merantau]

I would love to see Fletch have a breakout year in 2019. It maybe his last chance. Come what may I will always remember him for one thing. In the dying minutes of the 2016 Prelim it was his kick out of defence, under pressure, that both cleared the area and went down the line to a contest from where it went oob. We won the clearance, the ball ended up with Stringer who headed goal-wards before centering the ball to Dickson and the supporters were roaring before Sicko wrapped his arms around the pill. Magic moment from the best game I've ever seen. Thanks Fletch.

[bulldogtragic]

With the greatest respect to Fletch, if Naughton, Cordy, Morris, Wood, Young & Trengove remain as group relatively fit. I can't see him playing next year. I hope he suddenly turns into a new and better player, but there are now many better options. He's on the list and I wish him well, but I'm not prepared to bet with anyone's money that he will have a good year and will be re-contracted.

[Go_Dogs]

If Boyd is a ruck, I wonder if either Young or Fletch get a chance to shine as a second tall forward along with Schache. We could do worse than putting some time into this over summer.

[S Coast Simon]

Always wondered why we didn’t try him in attack or even a modern Mobil ruckman. He has beautiful skills just a bit slow. I would love to see him tried as a FP like the resting ruckman used to do he could bag a sneaky few in behind Boyd

[bornadog]

Will Fletch ever get a call up. Stuck on 49 games after how many seasons?

[bulldogtragic]

Will Fletch ever get a call up. Stuck on 49 games after how many seasons?

See Campbell & Roughead.

[Bulldog4life]

Spoke to my cousin last night who said he spoke to Chris Maple before last weeks game in WA and asked about Roberts and Schache. Maple was quite blunt. Said Roberts is a good mark but it is below his knees he has problems. Said Schache was dropped purely on effort alone not form.

[Rocket Science]

You know the season's tracking beautifully when we're musing about Fletcher Roberts being part of the panacea.

He was a serviceable soldier in '16 with a power of quality work being done around him in support.

He sure as hell wouldn't get that in '19.

[Ozza]

You know the season's tracking beautifully when we're musing about Fletcher Roberts being part of the panacea.

He was a serviceable soldier in '16 with a power of quality work being done around him in support.

He sure as hell wouldn't get that in '19.

It is possible for him to get better. I would hope all players of his age would get better or be working to get better each season, and in an inexperienced side, perhaps his relative experience would help at the moment.

[Axe Man]

Spoke to my cousin last night who said he spoke to Chris Maple before last weeks game in WA and asked about Roberts and Schache. Maple was quite blunt. Said Roberts is a good mark but it is below his knees he has problems. Said Schache was dropped purely on effort alone not form.

Fair assessments.

Effort is probably the easiest thing for a player to control, disappointing for Schache that it dropped off after the Hawthorn game. Our forward line will look much better when he is at least jumping at balls, providing a contest and taking some attention away from Naughton.

[Rocket Science]

It is possible for him to get better. I would hope all players of his age would get better or be working to get better each season, and in an inexperienced side, perhaps his relative experience would help at the moment.

Get better in what regard? Particularly with our track record of developing talls of any kind.

There are no revelations here but unfortunately for Fletch he's slow of foot so struggles to keep up with athletic opponents, he's badly undersized versus the gorillas, and he's extremely vulnerable 1-on-1 without an active chop out from a mate. He's not aggressive, he's not an astute reader of the ball and he's not a particularly smart user of it either. He's warm-body fodder for the modern game basically.

He does have an odd knack for earning contract extensions though.

[bulldogtragic]

Get better in what regard? Particularly with our track record of developing talls of any kind.

There are no revelations here but unfortunately for Fletch he's slow of foot so struggles to keep up with athletic opponents, he's badly undersized versus the gorillas, and he's extremely vulnerable 1-on-1 without an active chop out from a mate. He's not aggressive, he's not an astute reader of the ball and he's not a particularly smart user of it either. He's warm-body fodder for the modern game basically.

He does have an odd knack for earning contract extensions though.

He's an unrestricted free agent this year. 'They' say that's your big pay day contract. :D

[Bulldog4life]

Fair assessments.

Effort is probably the easiest thing for a player to control, disappointing for Schache that it dropped off after the Hawthorn game. Our forward line will look much better when he is at least jumping at balls, providing a contest and taking some attention away from Naughton.

Agree I think with both Naughty and Schache in the forward line it can each other.

[Mofra]

Agree I think with both Naughty and Schache in the forward line it can each other.
I have real concerns about Schache's temperament.

Lewis Young showed a real desire to get his hands dirty on the weekend (even though he looks raw as hell), Schache wants the ball on a platter. I'd reward Young with the second tall spot ahead of Schache. Hell, I'd play Trengove as a forward ahead of Schache until he shows he really wants the spot.

A single tall forward (or defender) isn't working.

On topic, I understand the knocks of Fletch but he's a classic case of looking at what he can't do rather than what he can do. I'd play Fletch if it meant getting a second tall defender in and freeing up Wood/Crozier to intercept mark, although it seems Trengove is there now who probably isn't any quicker than Fletch but much stronger (and can chop out in the ruck).

[Bulldog4life]

I have real concerns about Schache's temperament.

Lewis Young showed a real desire to get his hands dirty on the weekend (even though he looks raw as hell), Schache wants the ball on a platter. I'd reward Young with the second tall spot ahead of Schache. Hell, I'd play Trengove as a forward ahead of Schache until he shows he really wants the spot.

A single tall forward (or defender) isn't working.

On topic, I understand the knocks of Fletch but he's a classic case of looking at what he can't do rather than what he can do. I'd play Fletch if it meant getting a second tall defender in and freeing up Wood/Crozier to intercept mark, although it seems Trengove is there now who probably isn't any quicker than Fletch but much stronger (and can chop out in the ruck).

What I should have said is it helps both players having two talls in the forward line except only the one.

[Mofra]

What I should have said is it helps both players having two talls in the forward line except only the one.
Totally agree - the flow on effect of having just one is killing us.

[G-Mo77]

To answer the question in the title. We won't know until we try. He's hardly had a chance since 2016. Why hold him on the list this long if we're not going to play him. Makes no dam sense at all?

[Axe Man]

To answer the question in the title. We won't know until we try. He's hardly had a chance since 2016. Why hold him on the list this long if we're not going to play him. Makes no dam sense at all?

He re-signed during the 2017 season at a point where he had played most games that year and had just come off a premiership. He provides tall depth and assuming he has done nothing wrong in regards to attitude or behaviour I see no reason why we would have paid out his contract and delisted him.

The decision to give him 2 years may have been wrong in hindsight but once that was done he had to stay on the list whether he gets a game or not.

[Danjul]

Not enough pace to get seperation and not physically strong enough to wrestle in the contest. As a full back he uses his long arms really well which give him a lot of perceived height in the contest but he just isn't going to beat guys like Talia & Rance.

If his weakness is not being as good as the two best fullbacks in the game he is good enough for me to have in the team.

in 2018 Naughton had 10,7,9,18,3 possessions in one sequence and was viewed as a certain selection.
CordyÂ’s last four games... 9,8,6,10 disposals and is a certain selection this week.

unfortunately Roberts has to be twice as good as others who are BevoÂ’s favourites. He will never get another game.

[lemmon]

How big is the disconnect between list management and coaching? Campbell and now Roberts were both rewarded with contracts and play in positions that we're desperately lacking, but match committee seems to have stamped their papers anyway.

I get that Roberts is probably nothing more than a stopgap, but the amount of footy he's played over the last 3 seasons is ridiculous when you consider our defensive woes. And the sad part is, if we'd played him and put some time into him over these 'development years', we might actually have a half decent full back with close to 70 games under his belt by now in the Astbury/Pearce mould.

[Danjul]

Here is a question relevant to some of the threads here. It is based on real data for a player in another team. I will supply another relevant fact for this player soon. The exercise will test your ability as a selector.


The following list shows 10 consecutive games by a backman.


The entries are.... disposals (kicks)


13 (7), 15 (7), 17(6), 10(4), 15(8), 13 (6), 16(11), 17(9), 12(5), 13 (11),


Averages for the 10 games ... 14 (7.5),


Would you have dropped this player? And,if so, at which stage?

[Doc26]

I feel that I maybe being drawn into some form of spiders web here but when have disposals been seen as a key measure as an effective KPI for a key position defender. Moz’s value over the years has been his ability to at least break even at a contest with a ferocious appetite to hold the opposition accountable at all costs. With that said, I would like to see Fletcher be given greater opportunity than he has been given under Luke, if not as a stand-alone defender then as a swingman. He must be lacking terribly in confidence given the opportunities afforded to so many over him.

[MrMahatma]

Here is a question relevant to some of the threads here. It is based on real data for a player in another team. I will supply another relevant fact for this player soon. The exercise will test your ability as a selector.


The following list shows 10 consecutive games by a backman.


The entries are.... disposals (kicks)


13 (7), 15 (7), 17(6), 10(4), 15(8), 13 (6), 16(11), 17(9), 12(5), 13 (11),


Averages for the 10 games ... 14 (7.5),


Would you have dropped this player? And,if so, at which stage?

Since when were key defenders judged on their volume of possessions?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Here is a question relevant to some of the threads here. It is based on real data for a player in another team. I will supply another relevant fact for this player soon. The exercise will test your ability as a selector.


The following list shows 10 consecutive games by a backman.


The entries are.... disposals (kicks)


13 (7), 15 (7), 17(6), 10(4), 15(8), 13 (6), 16(11), 17(9), 12(5), 13 (11),


Averages for the 10 games ... 14 (7.5),


Would you have dropped this player? And,if so, at which stage?

I don't think I'd want to make any decisions based on just that single piece of data. It tells me very little about performance.
Dale Morris would probably have similar or lower stats most weeks, but his spoils, 1%ers, blocks, tackles, sheppards and other intangibles need to be considered.
Kicks or disposals on their own don't even convey whether or not they hit the intended target or if they resulted in costly turnovers.

[Axe Man]

Judging key defenders on possessions is like judging Caleb Daniel on contested marks, it's way down the list of relevant KPI's.

[Twodogs]

Since when were key defenders judged on their volume of possessions?


Since Rocket figured out that getting the ball into Brian Lake's hands was a good thing otherwise Lake was just standing in the goalsquare all by himself watching his direct opponent further down the ground getting involved in scoring chains. If one of our defenders has the ball in his hand then that means the opposition forward doesn't have it.


Defenders dont need to get the dame possession numbers as mids do but they di need to be more involved in the game than the old traditional 'see ball, punch ball' type of defender who only had to worry about finding the boundary line.

[hujsh]

Since Rocket figured out that getting the ball into Brian Lake's hands was a good thing otherwise Lake was just standing in the goalsquare all by himself watching his direct opponent further down the ground getting involved in scoring chains. If one of our defenders has the ball in his hand then that means the opposition forward doesn't have it.


Defenders dont need to get the dame possession numbers as mids do but they di need to be more involved in the game than the old traditional 'see ball, punch ball' type of defender who only had to worry about finding the boundary line.
Unless he’s marking an opposition kick I dispute the idea that it’s ever a ‘good’ idea to have the ball in Lakes hands.

[Danjul]

In 2018 Dale Morris averaged 11possessions (4.5 kicks) per game.

The player in my previous comment averaged 14 (7.5) in 10 consecutive games late in 2018, and he wasn’t dropped after the game with 10 possessions (4 kicks). His name is Rance.

both Rance and Morris are generally seen as worth giving a try.

in game 1 of 2018 Roberts performance was 14 (12) and he was banished. In the same game 2 other back men, Crozier and Trengove, combined for a total of 13 possessions. And the whole team had less than 350 possessions - which always guarantees a big loss. I suspect that Roberts’ main value to the club is as a scapegoat.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

In 2018 Dale Morris averaged 11possessions (4.5 kicks) per game.

The player in my previous comment averaged 14 (7.5) in 10 consecutive games late in 2018, and he wasn’t dropped after the game with 10 possessions (4 kicks). His name is Rance.

both Rance and Morris are generally seen as worth giving a try.

in game 1 of 2018 Roberts performance was 14 (12) and he was banished. In the same game 2 other back men, Crozier and Trengove, combined for a total of 13 possessions. And the whole team had less than 350 possessions - which always guarantees a big loss. I suspect that Roberts’ main value to the club is as a scapegoat.

Except that you are making that comparison based on a single piece of data alone. And that single piece of data is not instructive as an accurate measurement of performance, especially for that role.

It tells us nothing about how many contests he got to. How many times his opponent scored or was involved in a score. How many times he fumbled or failed to get to the right position. Or whether or not he distributed those possessions he garnered in alignmemt with team plan. There are way more things that a player is judged on. You're making a strawman argument by holding up one single piece of data as proving he has been scapegoated.

[bornadog]

In 2018 Dale Morris averaged 11possessions (4.5 kicks) per game.

The player in my previous comment averaged 14 (7.5) in 10 consecutive games late in 2018, and he wasn’t dropped after the game with 10 possessions (4 kicks). His name is Rance.

both Rance and Morris are generally seen as worth giving a try.

in game 1 of 2018 Roberts performance was 14 (12) and he was banished. In the same game 2 other back men, Crozier and Trengove, combined for a total of 13 possessions. And the whole team had less than 350 possessions - which always guarantees a big loss. I suspect that Roberts’ main value to the club is as a scapegoat.

The trouble with Roberts is he is no good when the ball hits the ground. Both Morris and Rance are good at second efforts, 1%ers, and picking up the ball off the ground.


Except that you are making that comparison based on a single piece of data alone. And that single piece of data is not instructive as an accurate measurement of performance, especially for that role.

Exactly.

[ledge]

Seems Roberts is in the Campbell camp, won’t get a gig and is just playing out his contract.
Be interesting to see if other clubs are interested down the track.

[Danjul]

O
The trouble with Roberts is he is no good when the ball hits the ground. Both Morris and Rance are good at second efforts, 1%ers, and picking up the ball off the ground.

Exactly.

picking up the ball off the ground is a possession. And Roberts has shown that he can get them, even though in the 2016 finals his role was to hit the ball to the two sweepers. And that tactic worked very well.

And you fail to address how Roberts can get more possessions in a game than Crozier and Trengove combined and be dropped.

Also interesting to look at Cordy ‘s possessions. In many games you can count his kicks on one hand. He is averaging 4 kicks per game this year. And where do they go?

The more I think about it the more I suspect that the club plays favourites, and that is why it is not competitive. The results since mid 2017 have been terrible and many team selections have been mysterious.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

O

picking up the ball off the ground is a possession. And Roberts has shown that he can get them, even though in the 2016 finals his role was to hit the ball to the two sweepers. And that tactic worked very well.

And you fail to address how Roberts can get more possessions in a game than Crozier and Trengove combined and be dropped.

Also interesting to look at Cordy ‘s possessions. In many games you can count his kicks on one hand. He is averaging 4 kicks per game this year. And where do they go?

The more I think about it the more I suspect that the club plays favourites, and that is why it is not competitive. The results since mid 2017 have been terrible and many team selections have been mysterious.

You keep overlooking or ignoring the fact, as I have pointed out above, that the single point of data you keep referring to is not of itself instructive as a performance measure.
You are saying:
1. Numbers of kicks, on their own are THE key stat for measuring performance.
2. If player A has more kicks than player C, D or E then player A unequivocally played better than the others.
3. If Player A is dropped, despite having had more kicks, then they are a scapegoat.

You are either willfully ignoring the other multiple variables i have pointed out (as but just a few that would be considered by coaches) because they don't support your narrative. Or else you have mistakenly overlooked these and as a result have come to an inaccurate conclusion.

[Danjul]

You keep overlooking or ignoring the fact, as I have pointed out above, that the single point of data you keep referring to is not of itself instructive as a performance measure.
Wood 5, are saying:
1. Numbers of kicks, on their own are THE key stat for measuring performance.
2. If player A has more kicks than player C, D or E then player A unequivocally played better than the others.
3. If Player A is dropped, despite having had more kicks, then they are a scapegoat.

You are either willfully ignoring the other multiple variables i have pointed out (as but just a few that would be considered by coaches) because they don't support your narrative. Or else you have mistakenly overlooked these and as a result have come to an inaccurate conclusion.

my whole complaint is that there is only one data point .

The guy got one game and was dropped when he was competitive- in my opinion.

The other variables you mentioned are nice to have but possessions and kicks should not be ignored.

In the game I used as an example we had

Kicks: Wood 5, Trengove 0, Crozier 6, Cordy 8, Williams 8, Naughton 9, JJ 10, Roberts 12.

10 of the 22 players had less possessions than Roberts. The only backman to have more was JJ (+5).

Roberts had 4 marks, more than any other backman. The most for team on the day was 6.

Roberts had 0 clangers, except for Naughton the others had 1.

The result was a big defeat. Roberts was banished. The others got plenty of games and the team went on to have a bad year. This year is not much of an improvement.

ItÂ’s only my opinion but I think Roberts had a good day and still has potential.

ItÂ’s only my opinion but the most important selection input should be previous weekÂ’s performance ( and not whatever has been used for the last 30 games).

And yes, I am being wilful. Most of the variables are rubbish if the players are not getting the ball and kicking it frequently.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

The trouble with Roberts is he is no good when the ball hits the ground. Both Morris and Rance are good at second efforts, 1%ers, and picking up the ball off the ground.



Exactly.

Roberts was good enough to play well in our Premiership team and has been rarely sighted since. A bit like Roughy and Campbell he is destined to be moved on and as a result can expect limited senior games in 2019.

[Ghost Dog]

Unless he’s marking an opposition kick I dispute the idea that it’s ever a ‘good’ idea to have the ball in Lakes hands.

He jagged a game for us V Melbourne in the forward line once. What a sweet win that was.

[Bullies]

Can see Roberts running around with another club next year doing a Roughead down back and us having Daniel in the last line of defense against Cameron/Lynch.

[Axe Man]

Has Sam been reading this thread?

Bulldog Fletcher Roberts would be swooped on in a mid-season trade period, writes Sam Landsberger (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/bulldog-fletcher-roberts-would-be-swooped-on-in-a-midseason-trade-period-writes-sam-landsberger/news-story/346eacaa077e992a5c696cae9b5ab810)

Fletcher Roberts is a walking, talking advertisement for why the AFL needs a mid-season trade period.

Roberts is a 25-year-old premiership full-back who appears to have had his papers stamped by Western Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge.

Roberts has just had three key defenders in front of him pulled out of the selection queue and still he can’t get a senior game.

Marcus Adams was traded to Brisbane, Dale Morris went down with a knee injury and Aaron Naughton was swung to full-forward.

That followed Joel Hamling’s defection to Fremantle after the premiership.

In 2019 it appears rookie Lachie Young and Lewis Young have leapfrogged him.

Surely if Beveridge was going to play Roberts it would’ve been in the first six rounds with the repeat omissions even confusing some of his teammates.

In fact, since Roberts signed a two-year contract extension midway through 2017 he has been on the outer.

“We’ve been really encouraged by Fletcher’s development, particularly the last 12 months,” former list boss Jason McCartney said.

“We look forward to watching him grow as a footballer over the next couple of years.”

Since that announcement Roberts has played 32 VFL games and just three AFL games.

It seems like the Dogs have queries over Roberts’ competitiveness and leg speed with Beveridge coaching the backline in a different direction.

Meanwhile, clubs searching the country for a key defender can’t consider a player who is AFL-fit and earning selection in the VFL best nearly every week.

Instead they are set to disrupt proud state-league clubs by plucking out their best players despite the fact they will need a long block of conditioning to play at AFL level.

Imagine if St Kilda — with Jake Carlisle or Dylan Roberton injured — or Melbourne — with Jake Lever and Steven May out — could offer the Dogs a third-round pick for Roberts later this month?

That would give Roberts the chance to prove his worth at the top level instead of having his value slowly whittled away.

One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, and there are players at plenty of clubs in a similar boat.

It might be time to get past the threat of players taking intellectual property to another club and get with the times.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Has Sam been reading this thread?

Bulldog Fletcher Roberts would be swooped on in a mid-season trade period, writes Sam Landsberger (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/bulldog-fletcher-roberts-would-be-swooped-on-in-a-midseason-trade-period-writes-sam-landsberger/news-story/346eacaa077e992a5c696cae9b5ab810)

Fletcher Roberts is a walking, talking advertisement for why the AFL needs a mid-season trade period.

Roberts is a 25-year-old premiership full-back who appears to have had his papers stamped by Western Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge.

Roberts has just had three key defenders in front of him pulled out of the selection queue and still he can’t get a senior game.

Marcus Adams was traded to Brisbane, Dale Morris went down with a knee injury and Aaron Naughton was swung to full-forward.

That followed Joel Hamling’s defection to Fremantle after the premiership.

In 2019 it appears rookie Lachie Young and Lewis Young have leapfrogged him.

Surely if Beveridge was going to play Roberts it would’ve been in the first six rounds with the repeat omissions even confusing some of his teammates.

In fact, since Roberts signed a two-year contract extension midway through 2017 he has been on the outer.

“We’ve been really encouraged by Fletcher’s development, particularly the last 12 months,” former list boss Jason McCartney said.

“We look forward to watching him grow as a footballer over the next couple of years.”

Since that announcement Roberts has played 32 VFL games and just three AFL games.

It seems like the Dogs have queries over Roberts’ competitiveness and leg speed with Beveridge coaching the backline in a different direction.

Meanwhile, clubs searching the country for a key defender can’t consider a player who is AFL-fit and earning selection in the VFL best nearly every week.

Instead they are set to disrupt proud state-league clubs by plucking out their best players despite the fact they will need a long block of conditioning to play at AFL level.

Imagine if St Kilda — with Jake Carlisle or Dylan Roberton injured — or Melbourne — with Jake Lever and Steven May out — could offer the Dogs a third-round pick for Roberts later this month?

That would give Roberts the chance to prove his worth at the top level instead of having his value slowly whittled away.

One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, and there are players at plenty of clubs in a similar boat.

It might be time to get past the threat of players taking intellectual property to another club and get with the times.

If someone wants to throw around a 3rd round pick for Fletcher and he was deemed surplus to our needs, I'd be okay with it.

[Rocket Science]

SWOOPED ON

Bit like Mitch Honeychurch last offseason.

Fletch is doing the job he's capable of at this level, serving as a no fuss depth type, and that's fine.

He'd be a useful 'in' for a contender wanting an insurance policy for a well-organised, well-performed back six.

Like everyone else he's on a hiding to nothing being asked to pull his weight in our current predicament.

[Testekill]

The weird thing that I've noticed is that his kicking has gotten much worse in the VFL this season, he was at least always a clever field kick that could hit targets but his kickouts in particular have fallen off.

[Go_Dogs]

He was mentioned in the post match press conference this week as a player on the radar to come in FWIW

[AshMac]

Fwiw?

[GVGjr]

Fwiw?

For what it's worth

[Bulldog4life]

He was mentioned in the post match press conference this week as a player on the radar to come in FWIW

Yes Bevo said it was out of Trengove or Roberts to come in.

[bornadog]

All the best Fletch, and thank you for your part in the premiership.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHir33zVUAAxkhA?format=jpg&name=medium

[Hotdog60]

He managed to do one thing a lot of other player didn't do and has a rare medallion to prove it.

[The Doctor]

I hope if Fletch doesn't get another gig in the AFL that he is at least offered a spot at Footscray.

It would be great to have him continue with the club and he would be a great mentor for new players coming into the club. Along with Dale Morris in his development coaching role that would be ideal.

Well done Fletch. Bulldog legend!

[GVGjr]

I hope if Fletch doesn't get another gig in the AFL that he is at least offered a spot at Footscray.

It would be great to have him continue with the club and he would be a great mentor for new players coming into the club. Along with Dale Morris in his development coaching role that would be ideal.

Well done Fletch. Bulldog legend!

He's a quality guy and I agree it would be great if he wanted to play for Footscray
I think Webb 'might' be a chance to stay at Footscray as well but I think Carlton are having a chat to him

[azabob]

Thanks Fletch. Seemed such an un-assuming type.

Unthinkable that he, Hamling and Morris are now all gone... All three stood tall during the most important time for our club.

[Eastdog]

Thanks Fletcher! Always will be a premiership player for us. Good luck for what you do next.

[Remi Moses]

Thanks fletch
Premiership immortal

[LostDoggy]

Thanks for all your efforts Fletch, much appreciated.

[chef]

Thanks Sid, you'll always be a Bullgod.

[Sedat]

Fletcher did some very important things late in both the PF and GF. Go well for the rest of your career.

[comrade]

I was pretty petrified when Fletch was tagged as the man to come in when Suckling went down injured in 2016 but he squeezed out every drop of ability he had in those two weeks and stood up when we needed him the most. Well done on your career, you’ll go down as a Bulldogs Immortal.

[bulldogtragic]

There's 300+ game players that aren't on the mailing list for premiership re-unions. Not Fletch. He's a premiership player, he's played 50+ AFL games and 100+ VFL games. He's set himself (& his family up for life) in the process.

Hopefully the rumoured interest in him from GCS comes to fruition and he can top up his superannuation.

[Daughter of the West]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_5mzflOA5E

This will be one of my enduring memories of Fletcher, doesn't get more clutch than this!

[comrade]

There's 300+ game players that aren't on the mailing list for premiership re-unions. Not Fletch. He's a premiership player, he's played 50+ AFL games and 100+ VFL games. He's set himself (& his family up for life) in the process.

Hopefully the rumoured interest in him from GCS comes to fruition and he can top up his superannuation.

Definitely one I could enjoy seeing in another team’s colours, knowing he gave us his all.

[Axe Man]

He's a quality guy and I agree it would be great if he wanted to play for Footscray
I think Webb 'might' be a chance to stay at Footscray as well but I think Calrton are having a chat to him

I think realistically there are a limited number of places for delisted AFL players in the VFL if they aren't trying to get back onto an AFL list. They would mostly be older guys with some sort of assistant coaching role looking to transition (like Jordan Russell). For the majority if their AFL dream is over they can make much more cash in the suburban/country leagues.

I personally know of a recently delisted AFL player (reasonably well known but far from a star) with a significant asking price.

[bornadog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_5mzflOA5E

This will be one of my enduring memories of Fletcher, doesn't get more clutch than this!

I was at that game but left during the start of the last quarter as we had a match on at Marvel. When Roberts kicked that goal, the cheer squad were chanting Roberts' name.

[Murphy'sLore]

That was a great moment, I'll also remember it forever. Yay Fletch, you stepped up when it counted.

[AshMac]

His prelim in sydney was the very best game he ever played. Delivered when it mattered. Good luck to him wherever he goes from here

[Twodogs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_5mzflOA5E

This will be one of my enduring memories of Fletcher, doesn't get more clutch than this!

That VFL premiership changed our club's culture. Without that booming kick in 2014 I don't think that we would have done (AFL, AFLW, 2016 VFL premiership) all the rest and was predicated on that one kick.