If Roughead, Schache, Boyd, English and Trengove are all....

[mjp]

...best suited to playing in the ruck - which it looks like they might be - then do we have a much (much) bigger list management problem than we all think.

It was great that English showed how much he has improved over summer yesterday. But is he a better ruckman than any of the others? If so, where the hell are the others going to play? And when?

Have J-Mac and Simon Dal left us in a bit of a mess here? To me, we have not so much an issue with talent - each of them are tall, relatively versatile and 'good enough' to play AFL footy. But would you trade all 5 of them for a truly dominant ruck - or at least one who you know you can count on to fight the good fight every week.

I think we need to do something like this:

Trengove: Key Defender. Starting this week.
Roughead and English: Ruck/Forward.
Best out of Boyd/Schache/Redpath: Key Forward + EMERGENCY ruck

We desperately need to find roles for these guys and help them become GOOD players who have a positive impact on matchday outcomes soon...figuring out that Trengove can stick his finger in the dam wall at full forward is not really going to help us win games long term.

[Mofra]

+ Campbell who is still contracted this year and didn't play the VFL practice game.

Trengove, Boyd and Schache were not traded as ruckmen so I'm not sure J-Mac wears much of the blame here, and I'm not sure Dal has that much say in trading.

For mien Trengove has a record of being a far better backman than Roberts who, as much as I like him, is a toiler.
Trengove as a former VC at his club surely provides the leadership we desperately need in the back half too.

Boyd and Schache are developing - fine - but that means Redpath has to come into the senior team this week surely to play 100% forward with Roughy/English sharing ruck duties.
They don't have to be world beaters forward - just split the tall defenders so they can't double-team Redpath.

That leaves Boyd/Schache playing something like 80% forward 20% ruck at VFL level while Campbell takes a fair chunk of the VFL ruckwork.
With Criozier out we can push Wood back to his best position which gives us space in the forwardline to bring someone in.

[Twodogs]

We have to put guys in their best positions and let them get s bit of confidence. For mine we've the the versatility v competent in a position thing a bit awry. It's great to have a team that you can change around to create an advantage where you see one but players have to know they can play at the level. Bringing guys in and expecting them to perform a different role than the one they were playing a level down isn't working.

I'd like to see Boyd and Schache play together at VFL level and find form in the forward line. Learn to keep out of each other's way in marking contests or to drawing defenders to leave the other by themselves.

[bornadog]

Good thread MJP.

In the good old days we had two ruckman, Fullback, CHB, CHF, and FF as the big guys on the ground. One of the ruckman would rest in the forward pocket and in those days didn't have to venture up the ground much. The resting ruckman also had to be covered, so a third tall in the backline was also required. Some teams still set up like this with three talls in the forward line (West Coast for example)

Fast forward and teams have to contend with restricted rotations, so your second ruck for starters has to be mobile if he is going to rest in the forward pocket, as we want to keep the rotations for the mids (or do we). Of the guys you have mentioned I would say Schache and English are your mobile rucks, but what to do with all these guys. Also we have to compliment the forward half with guys that can apply forward pressure, so we don't want to be too tall down there.

I agree with the OP that Trengove must go back. We really need someone with experience down there, forget about him as a ruckman, although he has done well in that position in the past.

As you say, we are left with Boyd, Schache and Redpath. I would still play two of these guys - the two that are in best form.

The question - do we have too many talls on the ground? I would use one of the ruckman or CHF/FF to rest on the bench and mids rotate more through the forward line.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I get what Bevo is trying to do. But it's just overkill. These players should play 80% of their time in their primary position and the other 20% elsewhere. It's time for Tom to become a forward. He's been with us 3 years now and has barely played as a full time forward.

[Smads57]

if its of any consolation, Redpath played solely as a forward in the VFL practice match yesterday - he didn't take part in any ruck duels, so his role in the AFL team (if selected) would be as a KF in my mind.

[craigsahibee]

I need to preface this by saying I haven't seen any of Sunday's game yet.

I'm not sold on the notion of developing players into something they are not, especially when it has the potential to compromise our competitiveness.

It's ok for younger guys to develop in the state league, but when you're in the Big Show you have to deliver.

Let the guys "earn and own" their spot and consolidate. In my opinion the coaching staff are trying to be a little too cute and inventive. It's a simple game. Play your best players available in their best positions.

I'll be gutted this week if Wood plays anywhere but in defense, particularly with the likes of Kennedy, Darling etc in the eagles forward line.

For mine Trengove goes back along with Wood. One of Boyd or Redpath plays forward with Roughy sharing the ruck load against Nic Nat. Libba's a massive out (captain obvious I know) so we need quick smart mids in this week with the ability to shark the Nic Nat hit outs as he will jump all over Roughy and smash English around the ground.

We need to make a statement this week after what I hear to be an insipid display yesterday.

[Happy Days]

Trengove has to go back or not play at all, and I'd be pretty happy with the latter; he was absolutely awful on the weekend, as he has been since 2016 (so those of you who said he would be a good cultural fit are right I guess).

English was very promising in the ruck, but Lobb is as perfect a matchup for him and I'm still worried about him against some of the more physical rucks in the league. We still need a "bodyguard" of sorts for him and I guess it'll have to be Roughead, who was only slightly less useless than Trengove.

Boyd and Schache should be playing at FF and CHF respectively. After seeing Schache play live for the ~2nd time on the weekend, I'm thinking he's a little more mobile than advertised. Boyd is our best tall forward, as bleak as it is. Neither are there yet but did any of you see Easton Wood on the weekend? Me neither.

[Go_Dogs]

If we view them all as ruckmen, then I'm very confused about our coach coming out over the weekend and comparing them both (Boyd and Schache) to Josh Kennedy.

My thought (hope) is because they're underdone, we're playing them in the ruck to get some run into their legs, and also because we will require them to chop out there in the senior side from time to time. Before Roughead got injured and Boyd rucked a large portion of the prelim, he was (as I remember it) spending significantly less time in the ruck than we've seen him do since.

If they aren't fit enough and we're worried about totally destroying their confidence by playing them now (and exposing them to the media spotlight) fair enough - but we need to be doing everything we can to ensure they're playing senior football soon. I suspect if we saw them attack a few contests up front like Timmy English did on the weekend they'd be straight in - at the moment Two-Metre-Timmy (TMT) has the confidence.

[Topdog]

I genuinely have no idea what Bevo and the match committee are thinking.

[mjp]

If we view them all as ruckmen, then I'm very confused about our coach coming out over the weekend and comparing them both (Boyd and Schache) to Josh Kennedy.


I’m not saying that we VIEW them as ruckman. I am talking about the more serious problem that they all play their best footy when in the ruck...

The Kennedy comparison (Boyd and Schache) is great and they have a few years to mature before they can be expected to be ‘Josh Kennedy’ but by this stage of his career he was playing regular senior footy and had been the key piece of the Judd trade. Our two boys are playing ruck in the vfl...somehow I think if we wanted them to be kpp’s that is what’s they would be doing? Isn’t that - after all - the whole point of having our own vfl team? In other words, they are playing in the ruck ‘cos the senior coach wants them too!

[FrediKanoute]

...best suited to playing in the ruck - which it looks like they might be - then do we have a much (much) bigger list management problem than we all think.

It was great that English showed how much he has improved over summer yesterday. But is he a better ruckman than any of the others? If so, where the hell are the others going to play? And when?

Have J-Mac and Simon Dal left us in a bit of a mess here? To me, we have not so much an issue with talent - each of them are tall, relatively versatile and 'good enough' to play AFL footy. But would you trade all 5 of them for a truly dominant ruck - or at least one who you know you can count on to fight the good fight every week.

I think we need to do something like this:

Trengove: Key Defender. Starting this week.
Roughead and English: Ruck/Forward.
Best out of Boyd/Schache/Redpath: Key Forward + EMERGENCY ruck

We desperately need to find roles for these guys and help them become GOOD players who have a positive impact on matchday outcomes soon...figuring out that Trengove can stick his finger in the dam wall at full forward is not really going to help us win games long term.

I agree with what you are saying - I get the versatility mantra and its great, but really versatility si the trump card you play when you ahve injuries or when the norm isn't working. Yesterday to me looked like a team where no one really knew their role - the backline were all at sea with no one manning up or the wrong guys manning up the wrong people.

I agree whole heartedly that Trengove plays back, with Wood and I like what I saw from English - yes we need to protect him, but gee his game in a team that got smashed was pretty impressive. he deserves to start and play as a mobile ruck/come forward.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I am probably not enough "miles down the road" away from yesterday's loss, but the lingering bad feeling I have is that we have made a terrible, terrible mistake by not selecting Darcy Fogarty.

Not only is he senior ready, he looks like the type of lead up forward (with excellent hands, true forward presence, and reliable kicking) that we have craved since Hall retired (and again before we got Hall). He is also only 192ish so surely we wouldn't decide that we need to play him in the ruck.

I sure hope Naughton and Richards continue to impress and turn out to be the players we think they might. Also, I hope Fogarty gets stuck in the SANFL in a Crows team flush with forward options and we somehow coax him away in a few years.

[MrMahatma]

I’m not saying that we VIEW them as ruckman. I am talking about the more serious problem that they all play their best footy when in the ruck...

The Kennedy comparison (Boyd and Schache) is great and they have a few years to mature before they can be expected to be ‘Josh Kennedy’ but by this stage of his career he was playing regular senior footy and had been the key piece of the Judd trade. Our two boys are playing ruck in the vfl...somehow I think if we wanted them to be kpp’s that is what’s they would be doing? Isn’t that - after all - the whole point of having our own vfl team? In other words, they are playing in the ruck ‘cos the senior coach wants them too!

This sums up my concerns in their entirety.

We don't really have a future fwd line to look forward to. The elite juniors in our ranks are being trained as rucks, not forwards, so even if they come good, we have no fwd line.

I see a coach who doesn't rate ruckmen who only ruck, and in his obsession to ensure ours can do more, we're killing our chance of having a strong fwd line.

Give me an average ruck division with a strong fwd line over a strong ruck division with no fwd line. At the moment we have an average ruck division with no fwd line. It's lunacy and it's Bevo's doing.

[bornadog]

I’m not saying that we VIEW them as ruckman. I am talking about the more serious problem that they all play their best footy when in the ruck...

The Kennedy comparison (Boyd and Schache) is great and they have a few years to mature before they can be expected to be ‘Josh Kennedy’ but by this stage of his career he was playing regular senior footy and had been the key piece of the Judd trade. Our two boys are playing ruck in the vfl...somehow I think if we wanted them to be kpp’s that is what’s they would be doing? Isn’t that - after all - the whole point of having our own vfl team? In other words, they are playing in the ruck ‘cos the senior coach wants them too!

The senior coach wants to develop these guys into Ruck/Fwds. Gone are the days when a player is only a ruckman. With Redpath on the list, he is the one that is the stay at home full forward. Maybe some see this as the wrong path because they don't rate Redpath, and one of the other two boys should be in that role?

[1eyedog]

The senior coach wants to develop these guys into Ruck/Fwds. Gone are the days when a player is only a ruckman. With Redpath on the list, he is the one that is the stay at home full forward. Maybe some see this as the wrong path because they don't rate Redpath, and one of the other two boys should be in that role?

I think a good number of supporters feel this way BAD.

[bornadog]

I think a good number of supporters feel this way BAD.

He needs to start giving back to the club, we have backed him enough and given him plenty of chances. I bet he plays this week, and he better kick at least 4 goals.

[1eyedog]

He needs to start giving back to the club, we have backed him enough and given him plenty of chances. I bet he plays this week, and he better kick at least 4 goals.

I would back either one of Boyd or Schache to play this week

[Twodogs]

He needs to start giving back to the club, we have backed him enough and given him plenty of chances. I bet he plays this week, and he better kick at least 4 goals.


I don't really care how many goals he kicks. All he has to do is run at the ball carrier and provide a contest when the ball comes near him. It's not hard and I can't understand why it can't be done.

[Mofra]

The senior coach wants to develop these guys into Ruck/Fwds. Gone are the days when a player is only a ruckman. With Redpath on the list, he is the one that is the stay at home full forward. Maybe some see this as the wrong path because they don't rate Redpath, and one of the other two boys should be in that role?
There are guys who play almost all of their football in the ruck even now - Sauce Jacobs, Nank, Goldy, Stef Martin, etc.

If someone is good enough to play most of their time in the ruck you only need one forward with some ruck ability to chop out. Tigers just won a flag with Nank in the ruck and Grigg giving the odd chop-out.

It can be done so why we played three guys as rucks in round 1 against arguably the best running team in the competition is bewildering.

[bornadog]

It can be done so why we played three guys as rucks in round 1 against arguably the best running team in the competition is bewildering.

We whinge when we don't have talls in the forward line and when we do, we whinge again.

[Mofra]

We whinge when we don't have talls in the forward line and when we do, we whinge again.
You saying I'm whinging?

If you're happy with our round 1 performance and think we shouldn't question it then fine, but I dare say you're in the minority.

Note: ruck and forwardline are different things.

[bornadog]

You saying I'm whinging?

If you're happy with our round 1 performance and think we shouldn't question it then fine, but I dare say you're in the minority.

Note: ruck and forwardline are different things.

No not you, we as in supporters. (sorry if you thought it was personal)

Of course we aren't happy with that performance, but your question of why we went with 3 rucks , well I think with Redpath, Boyd and Schache unavailable we went with Roughy, English and Trengove. To me Trengove is not a ruckman, but a KPP, but of course he also rucks.

Trengove was extremely disappointing - 4 handballs for the day.

[Mantis]

Of course we aren't happy with that performance, but your question of why we went with 3 rucks , well I think with Redpath, Boyd and Schache unavailable we went with Roughy, English and Trengove. To me Trengove is not a ruckman, but a KPP, but of course he also rucks.

Trengove was extremely disappointing - 4 handballs for the day.

Why was Schache unavailable? Did he have a wedding on?

The use of Trengove surprised me the most, from I could work out he spent the whole of the first half as a key forward whilst Roughy/English shared the ruck/forward duties, which was quite different to his role in the JLT. His positioning as a KF in the first half was extremely poor and was quite often 80m from the kicker when he should've been providing an option.

[Mofra]

No not you, we as in supporters. (sorry if you thought it was personal)

Of course we aren't happy with that performance, but your question of why we went with 3 rucks , well I think with Redpath, Boyd and Schache unavailable we went with Roughy, English and Trengove. To me Trengove is not a ruckman, but a KPP, but of course he also rucks.

Trengove was extremely disappointing - 4 handballs for the day.
Trengove was terrible but this thread itself raises a good point - why has he spent all pre-season playing as a ruck/forward?

He was recruited to fill a spot as a KPD given we lack mature KPDs and he can take the gorillas, and we were getting monstered in the back half.
We lacked leadership and structure in the back half and we had our AA HBF Captain, and Port's former B&F winner (and VC) forward of the ball when they both made their reputation at the other end of the ground.

We can afford to have two rucks in the team swapping forward but that needs to be complemented by a leading forward so I don't think we can have Trengove, Roughy & English all playing that ruck/forward role.
One has to make was for Redpath who for his faults leads at the ball carrier and is far more forward than he is ruck.

For mine, Roberts out for Trengove back, Wood moves back to take Crozier's spot, we bring in Wallis for Libba, Redpath goes forward and that leaves a third change at a minimum - someone like Daniel who is an excellent ball user which we sorely lack.

That's three changes at a minimum and Bailey Williams can count himself lucky if he plays next week IMO because it isn't hard to find HBFers on our list, noting Suckling and JJ played up the ground.

[bornadog]

Why was Schache unavailable? Did he have a wedding on?

The use of Trengove surprised me the most, from I could work out he spent the whole of the first half as a key forward whilst Roughy/English shared the ruck/forward duties, which was quite different to his role in the JLT. His positioning as a KF in the first half was extremely poor and was quite often 80m from the kicker when he should've been providing an option.

Unavailable as in not AFL match ready. He must have played 20 minutes in two JLT games, for some reason

[bornadog]

Trengove was terrible but this thread itself raises a good point - why has he spent all pre-season playing as a ruck/forward?

He was recruited to fill a spot as a KPD given we lack mature KPDs and he can take the gorillas, and we were getting monstered in the back half.
We lacked leadership and structure in the back half and we had our AA HBF Captain, and Port's former B&F winner (and VC) forward of the ball when they both made their reputation at the other end of the ground.

We can afford to have two rucks in the team swapping forward but that needs to be complemented by a leading forward so I don't think we can have Trengove, Roughy & English all playing that ruck/forward role.
One has to make was for Redpath who for his faults leads at the ball carrier and is far more forward than he is ruck.

For mine, Roberts out for Trengove back, Wood moves back to take Crozier's spot, we bring in Wallis for Libba, Redpath goes forward and that leaves a third change at a minimum - someone like Daniel who is an excellent ball user which we sorely lack.

That's three changes at a minimum and Bailey Williams can count himself lucky if he plays next week IMO because it isn't hard to find HBFers on our list, noting Suckling and JJ played up the ground.

I was so happy we had recruited someone that could take the gorillas on, it is perplexing.

[Mofra]

I was so happy we had recruited someone that could take the gorillas on, it is perplexing.
It just adds to the consternation of most fans we read or speak to - there just seems to be so many players playing outside of their best position.

Bevo made an immediate impact in 2015 by playing to strengths rather than B-Mac's method of trying to shoehorn the list into a rolling maul of dour inside mids.
We seem to be going backwards in playing players were they aren't best suited simply to claim 'versatility' but it seems apparent that some players aren't overly versatile.

That's ok if they are playing their role well e.g. I wouldn't want Dale Morris to come back as a forward just to make him 'versatile' when he's possibly the best lockdown defender I've seen in Bulldog colours.

[Twodogs]

Trengove was terrible but this thread itself raises a good point - why has he spent all pre-season playing as a ruck/forward?

He was recruited to fill a spot as a KPD given we lack mature KPDs and he can take the gorillas, and we were getting monstered in the back half.
We lacked leadership and structure in the back half and we had our AA HBF Captain, and Port's former B&F winner (and VC) forward of the ball when they both made their reputation at the other end of the ground.

We can afford to have two rucks in the team swapping forward but that needs to be complemented by a leading forward so I don't think we can have Trengove, Roughy & English all playing that ruck/forward role.
One has to make was for Redpath who for his faults leads at the ball carrier and is far more forward than he is ruck.

For mine, Roberts out for Trengove back, Wood moves back to take Crozier's spot, we bring in Wallis for Libba, Redpath goes forward and that leaves a third change at a minimum - someone like Daniel who is an excellent ball user which we sorely lack.

That's three changes at a minimum and Bailey Williams can count himself lucky if he plays next week IMO because it isn't hard to find HBFers on our list, noting Suckling and JJ played up the ground.


Playing an actual forward actually in the forward line is a novel idea.

[LostDoggy]

Good thread.

The use of Trengove is genuinely puzzling. Anyone who tracked Trengove at Port will tell you he was an abysmal forward, a good back and a decent follower. So why is Bev playing him forward? Totally puzzling.

With English coming on we have him, Trengove, Boyd and Rough in front of Campbell. Why is Campbell on our list?

I think the club sees Redpath as forward poly filla until a decent forward comes on. Remains to be seen if the massive investment in Boyd and to a lesser extent, Schache, pays off.

Ideally if the young guys develop then by next year I think we'd have English and Boyd sharing ruck forward duties. Schache the leading Jenkins, Cloke type player, with Rough as back up ruck. That leaves Trengove back and Campbell moved on.

[Rocco Jones]

We are like a cricket team with too many all-rounders.

[Ozza]

We are like a cricket team with too many all-rounders.

Used that exact analogy on the weekend, that we had too many all rounders!

"They can play in all 3 areas of the ground".....but they aren't very good in any of them!

My Dad responded that "Some of these blokes must be good fielders!"

[bornadog]

We are like a cricket team with too many all-rounders.

That's fine Rocco, how would you answer the OP?

[Go_Dogs]

I’m not saying that we VIEW them as ruckman. I am talking about the more serious problem that they all play their best footy when in the ruck...

If we wanted them to be kpp’s that is what’s they would be doing? Isn’t that - after all - the whole point of having our own vfl team? In other words, they are playing in the ruck ‘cos the senior coach wants them too!

I’m yet to be convinced Trengove, Schache and English have shown their best in the ruck, Rough and Boyd probably have.

On the second point, I agree with what you’re saying, which makes it confusing. We think they can develop into JK, but aren’t playing them there. I maintain it must be a “get some miles in their legs” or “let’s not kill their confidence” or something. If it’s not, I’m at a loss.

[Sedat]

Brisbane are playing Hipwood every week despite him not getting even 10 possessions most weeks. Hopefully both Schache and Boyd get their turn soon enough.

[Eastdog]

Tom Boyd. Didn't we get him as we were crying out for a key forward. We were desperate for that. This is where he should be playing most of the time.

Schache another who should mostly play forward.

Roughy and English more in the ruck.

Trengove as Mofra has said we recruited him to fill a KP role in the defence so that's where he should be playing.

Wood and Trengove need to play back particular with our current injuries to our defensive unit.

JJ off half back to give us that run from there.

[Smads57]

Being very specific about observations from the recent VFL practice match re Boyd and Schaches' playing roles and whether their development is intended to be as Ruck/Fwds or Fwd/Rucks.

Boyd - clearly his size and (now) experience in the ruck enabled him to start well in this role on the week-end against the AFL ruckmen in Geelong's team (Rhys Stanley), but his role was limited to the ruck role only in each of the first two quarters where he interchanged with Schache as required.
At halftime, the VFL ruckman was added to the game and suddenly Boyd was going between ruck, bench and forward. In the second half his confidence seemed to have increased and he was suddenly taking marks around the ground (not a lot mind you), tackling, being tackled (as he was winning some of his own possessions). I wondering whether this 'confident' 2nd half was helped by the amount of time he spent following the ball around in the first half, not as a KF but as a ruckman.
I emphasise this as I read above some WOOFERS thinking we might be wasting his talents having him 'practice' the ruck role in the VFL - I think in this practice match it may have helped him get involved in the game more.

Schache - many WOOFERS would have seen Schache's efforts in the ruck during the JLT series, so I don't need to tell you he is very 'green' in this role and that showed up again on Saturday (and was the reason for Geelong's first half dominance as we couldn't get the ball out of stoppages when he was on the ball). BUT, I noticed that as the game progressed his ruck work became 'smarter' as he worked out the three Geelong ruckmen. I think he is a quick learner and if it is intended he become another Fwd/Ruck option for us (along with Boyd) then that's a plus in my mind.
Josh's work around the ground was much cleaner than Boyd's although he didn't get many touches. He is a much better field kick (Boyd tried a couple of dinky short passes that led to turnovers).

So what am I trying to say here...I think there is method in the MC's madness around how these two players are used at VFL level at this point in time. The proof will be in the pudding however.

With respect to the OP, this would give us two rucks in English and Roughead, two KF/Ruck options in Boyd and Schache and two KP players (one fwd and one back) who can pinch hit in the ruck if required in Trengove and Redpath. My thoughts....

[GVGjr]

Last year we struggled with injuries to both Campbell and Roughead and we needed to throw Boyd into some long stints.
Bevo was apparently revamping the while concept of ruckwork with his creative use of the likes of Bont, Jong and Dunkley in supporting roles. With the recruitment of Trengove and Schache and the further development of English we now find ourselves with multiple ruck options.

I'd prefer to see Trengove as a key defender, Roughead in the first ruck role with Schache and Boyd with key forward duties but we have complicated things by selecting Tim English as the 2nd ruckman in the first round who performed pretty well. On top of that Jack Redpath who is in the leadership group is around the mark of being selected

We have somehow complicated things since the recruitment of Trengove and Schache and we need to get it sorted.

[Greystache]

Being very specific about observations from the recent VFL practice match re Boyd and Schaches' playing roles and whether their development is intended to be as Ruck/Fwds or Fwd/Rucks.

Boyd - clearly his size and (now) experience in the ruck enabled him to start well in this role on the week-end against the AFL ruckmen in Geelong's team (Rhys Stanley), but his role was limited to the ruck role only in each of the first two quarters where he interchanged with Schache as required.
At halftime, the VFL ruckman was added to the game and suddenly Boyd was going between ruck, bench and forward. In the second half his confidence seemed to have increased and he was suddenly taking marks around the ground (not a lot mind you), tackling, being tackled (as he was winning some of his own possessions). I wondering whether this 'confident' 2nd half was helped by the amount of time he spent following the ball around in the first half, not as a KF but as a ruckman.
I emphasise this as I read above some WOOFERS thinking we might be wasting his talents having him 'practice' the ruck role in the VFL - I think in this practice match it may have helped him get involved in the game more.

Schache - many WOOFERS would have seen Schache's efforts in the ruck during the JLT series, so I don't need to tell you he is very 'green' in this role and that showed up again on Saturday (and was the reason for Geelong's first half dominance as we couldn't get the ball out of stoppages when he was on the ball). BUT, I noticed that as the game progressed his ruck work became 'smarter' as he worked out the three Geelong ruckmen. I think he is a quick learner and if it is intended he become another Fwd/Ruck option for us (along with Boyd) then that's a plus in my mind.
Josh's work around the ground was much cleaner than Boyd's although he didn't get many touches. He is a much better field kick (Boyd tried a couple of dinky short passes that led to turnovers).

So what am I trying to say here...I think there is method in the MC's madness around how these two players are used at VFL level at this point in time. The proof will be in the pudding however.

With respect to the OP, this would give us two rucks in English and Roughead, two KF/Ruck options in Boyd and Schache and two KP players (one fwd and one back) who can pinch hit in the ruck if required in Trengove and Redpath. My thoughts....

Appreciate the update Smads, but I'm still baffled by our logic.

We give Boyd and Schache limited game time even in the VFL because we have them both playing the same role in the same team?

The approach seems to be, particularly with Schache- We don't rate ruckmen, so we're going to play our two best key forward prospects out of position in the ruck instead of forward, so they can develop into forwards because we don't rate rucks.

Much like we're concerned about our lack of experience in defence, so we're going to play Wood, JJ, and Trengove forward instead of where they've played their best footy in defence, because we think they can do a bit when played out of position.

I'm really concerned about our footy department, really concerned.

[Hot_Doggies]

The problem is Boyd can’t catch.

He is a liability up forward due to a poor marking technique. Hence the ruck role...

[Topdog]

The problem is Boyd can’t catch.

He is a liability up forward due to a poor marking technique. Hence the ruck role...

Sounds like something that can be fixed so maybe work on fixing it and not change his role

[Mofra]

The problem is Boyd can’t catch.

He is a liability up forward due to a poor marking technique. Hence the ruck role...
He can mark the high ball (which is how ruckman normally compete) but the low ball, which is how leading forwards generally prefer it, he is terrible at.

His best game for us was the 2016 GF and his first involvement was a dropped chest mark.
Fortunately I was sitting right behind the goals for that beautiful Bonti kick in that he marked and threaded through on the left from the boundary line in the second quarter. His leading pattern to get on the end of that ball was phenomenal which is in equal parts frustrating and promising.

He has natural forward instincts, gets to the right spots and gets to the point of the ball - it's the hands which worry me.

[S Coast Simon]

I would prefer it if they played their best position then if required they pinch hit in another position. I was in WA when freo recruited all Australian CHB in Croad. Gave number one pick and the legend that was McPharlin came as well. They played him at full forward a few years. Didn’t work so traded him back to Hawthorne for a steal because he was no good, and he became an all Australian CHB again. When you played the hawks in their premiership years smith was on the wing, Birchall and stratten on the back flank or pocket. Hodge and co in the middle. Rough and Budd/Gunston up front with Poppy and Rioli. You could pick the team and positions for them. We are getting to cute and need our players to go back to their best positions. Someone said earlier. Play them where we recruited them to play. They became premiership players where they play best.

[Bulldog4life]

Boyd's best game for us has been as forward/ruck without a doubt.

[MrMahatma]

He can mark the high ball (which is how ruckman normally compete) but the low ball, which is how leading forwards generally prefer it, he is terrible at.

His best game for us was the 2016 GF and his first involvement was a dropped chest mark.
Fortunately I was sitting right behind the goals for that beautiful Bonti kick in that he marked and threaded through on the left from the boundary line in the second quarter. His leading pattern to get on the end of that ball was phenomenal which is in equal parts frustrating and promising.

He has natural forward instincts, gets to the right spots and gets to the point of the ball - it's the hands which worry me.

Yet teams persevere with forwards who flat out can't kick, and we're moving him because chest marks aren't his go?

I'll never agree with how he's being played.