Are we rebuilding?

[The bulldog tragician]

I would have thought this an impossible question when we won the flag with an incredibly young list but our team today had an average of 63 games and our age average was 23 years one month. Compare this with teams accepted to be rebuilding:

Brisbane 24 years 1 month and 77 games
North 96 games and 25 years 5 months
St Kilda 24 yrs 10 mths, 82.9 games

Eagles ave was 100 games, 25 yrs 3mthd

Horrible though today was, our age profile is of a team that gets shellacked every week. We are playing Naughton instead of Roberts, Richards instead of Biggs, English ahead of Boyd, Webb instead of Wallis - normally this happens when a coach decides he must build a future rather than cling to a past and “get games into the kids.” Has this all been forced on us by injury or is the guard already changing, with all the pain this will bring?

[Happy Days]

I think it's a convenient truth that our team is so young. Teams re-building don't sign guys like Trengove to 4-year contracts, or seek out guys to fill immediate needs like we did with Crozier.

I do think we're up our own arse at the selection table, and giving a lot of conditional efforts on field.

[Greystache]

We have to be, nothing else makes sense. We've dismantled everything we did 25 games ago and replaced it with nothing. We're also picking a team each week with what seems like the express purpose of getting belted.

There must be a young player in the pick 1-3 range of the draft we're desperate to get.

[jeemak]

When we’re not playing Boyd, Dickson, Adams, Wallis, Smith, Morris, Liberatore, Picken, Redpath and Biggs we probably are. When a critical mass of them are playing, no.

[FrediKanoute]

To be fair - Adams, Morris, Smith, Picken and Libba re injured. I think we underestimate the impact injuries have had on our team. Every team has injuries, but we have been exposed early.

[lemmon]

You'd think so...You'd also think that a rebuilding side that spent a lot on bringing in two blue-chip key forward prospects would play and develop them in the seniors...rather than running them around as ruckmen in the seconds.

[merantau]

We fielded a side that was 10 players different to GF side. We are in s different place now.

[The bulldog tragician]

To be fair - Adams, Morris, Smith, Picken and Libba re injured. I think we underestimate the impact injuries have had on our team. Every team has injuries, but we have been exposed early.

Definitely injuries have been awful - I’m just curious why, in those circumstances of an injury depleted backline we’d choose to play Naughtin and Richards instead of Fletcher and Biggs - whatever their deficiencies they are premiership players. That doesn’t give you a free pass forever, and neither were great against GWS, but to choose inexperienced 18 yr olds rather than them seems like a deliberate choice to go with youth.

[Twodogs]

We must be because that's the only thing that makes any sense. Maybe I'm wrong expecting it to make sense though.

[GVGjr]

We aren't in rebuilding phase because we would have recruited and drafted differently and to be honest, I think it's next to impossible to categorize the style of football we are playing or the manner we are approaching the season and selection with.

We appear to believe we are selecting our inform team and even though we all know it's unbalanced we think that is still the right formula. Clearly it isn't.

We have been picked apart by opposition teams after the 2016 season and it would appear it wasn't a complicated formula to unravel.
We hardly tag or mark an opposition player and we certainly don't get stuck in. The men of mayhem defense is a thing of the past and our famed handball club isn't the force it once was. Back in 2016 we stood for both of these styles but not now, there isn't really one thing we can say is working for us.

Our skill level is poor and shuffling players around isn't working.

Are we a good team out of luck or have we simply been worked out and don't have the answers yet to counter opposition teams?

[The bulldog tragician]

The second half of 2017, and what we’ve seen so far, certainly make the question of what we achieved in 2016 and how we did it, even more interesting.

To the question of are we rebuilding, maybe the mixed signals are themselves of concern. It’s like we don’t have a strong clear message from the club either via selections, game style or other ways which shows us where the club thinks it’s at, where we want to be, and how we’ll get there.

[josie]

Good post. Based upon what we have offered so far I would say yes we are in rebuild mode now. There does not seem to be much of a game plan or an ability to respond when things are not going our way. I remember the year we finished last and then selected cooney as number 1 in the draft. We did not win many games that year but as I recall it, you could not in many of those games question our tenacity. The team at present are playing in a most unbulldog like manner. Losing is one thing, it is the manner in which we are losing that is disheartening.

[anfo27]

We aren't in rebuilding phase because we would have recruited and drafted differently and to be honest, I think it's next to impossible to categorize the style of football we are playing or the manner we are approaching the season and selection with.

We appear to believe we are selecting our inform team and even though we all know it's unbalanced we think that is still the right formula. Clearly it isn't.

We have been picked apart by opposition teams after the 2016 season and it would appear it wasn't a complicated formula to unravel.
We hardly tag or mark an opposition player and we certainly don't get stuck in. The men of mayhem defense is a thing of the past and our famed handball club isn't the force it once was. Back in 2016 we stood for both of these styles but not now, there isn't really one thing we can say is working for us.

Our skill level is poor and shuffling players around isn't working.

Are we a good team out of luck or have we simply been worked out and don't have the answers yet to counter opposition teams?

For me these aren't the questions we should be asking. I hate to ask the question because we all love Bevo but has he lost the players? I see a team that lacks effort, hunger, fight, intensity, a want to work hard for your team mate & a genuine care for each other.

I don't care that PG or the Bont says everything is rosy because we can all see it with our own eyes, something is clearly wrong!

We are the easiest team to score against atm & thats because we refuse to work. There are free men everywhere in transition! We epitomised blue collar 25 games ago but now we have no idea what that means.

[Rocket Science]

Nope, we're decomposing.

[Go_Dogs]

Our skill level is poor and shuffling players around isn't working.

Are we a good team out of luck or have we simply been worked out and don't have the answers yet to counter opposition teams?

We've been worked out it seems, and based on what we've dished up its fairly easy to play against us. You simply wait for an unforced turnover or a kick to the hot spot, back yourselves to win the ball and then run hard in transition and score many, easy goals.

I'm not sure we're rebuilding. We can't afford the luxury to come out and say/do that, however based on the sides we've put on the park it's what I'd call a 'refresh'. We're giving ourselves a chance to have a look at quite a few players who may or may not be there at seasons end similar to what we did in 2015 with Ayce and a couple of others. Players like Williams, HC and Webb are really playing for their careers this year as despite still being young, they need to establish themselves as consistent senior footballers.

Putting aide selection and structure, we have some definicines with our game plan we need to work on. Bombing it to 30m out didn't work very well in the first half yesterday. In the second half we managed to lock the ball in our F50 a bit better and create some opportunities with repeat entries, but again our inability to lower the eyes or have a moving target and space to move the ball into wasn't there.

Finally, our defensive transition is shot. I lost count of the times Lycett was matched on Daniel in transition. We have 3 key defenders playing!!! Why is the smallest man in the competition on Lycett??? We can't cover exit kicks once we turn the ball over and our inability to manage the opposition run and spread is a real concern. We need to run smarter, position ourselves better and turning the ball over in less dangerous areas would help too.

[mjp]

We've been worked out it seems, and based on what we've dished up its fairly easy to play against us.

I know what you are saying in terms of 'game-style' but knowing what a team is going to do and actually being able to do something about it are NOT the same thing.

The best teams have the best habits and are completely predictable to one another...sure, the opposition know what is happening as well but good luck stopping it. Our players seem completely surprised at almost EVERYTHING that happens on gameday - there is no cohesion around/behind the ball and no shape in front of the contest.

Part of the problem with trying things like 'Wood forward' and those sort of things ALL summer is that when the season starts, well, how can things possibly be 'in sync'? How can you possibly have well established habits?

[Go_Dogs]

I know what you are saying in terms of 'game-style' but knowing what a team is going to do and actually being able to do something about it are NOT the same thing.

The best teams have the best habits and are completely predictable to one another...sure, the opposition know what is happening as well but good luck stopping it. Our players seem completely surprised at almost EVERYTHING that happens on gameday - there is no cohesion around/behind the ball and no shape in front of the contest.

Part of the problem with trying things like 'Wood forward' and those sort of things ALL summer is that when the season starts, well, how can things possibly be 'in sync'? How can you possibly have well established habits?

When you say well established habits, are you talking about consistently kicking the ball to the same zone on entries into F50? About how we switch play coming out of defence and what angle the next kick goes to? About where our defenders press up to and position themselves when we have a ‘slow play’ entry into F50 (by slow play I mean not a fast break entry)?

The best passage of play yesterday involved JJ getting the ball on the right back flank, kicking a long ball to Suckling at a 45 who was running into space on the left wing(and good play by whoever was on the bloke that came up from our F50 to stop Suckling, who did just enough to cause a moments indecision) and we looked great. This was only pulled off because a couple of our best penetrating users were involved, but having a runner in that area relative to the kick, the forward being able to do enough to cause a defender to think through their decision, these should be the things we do instinctively.

It’s a worry based on your observations we can’t do this and that our plans during preseason (which lasted all of 3/4’s of a game) have potentially (my view, based on 2 rounds) cost us a season because we haven’t trained our players to know their roles and how to make the right decisions both with and without ball.

[Rocket Science]

This is the thing. The squad looks disorganised, dispirited,and horribly unprepared. And the results so far spell that out.

All this on the back of a lengthy pre-season, after a year where our culture and performance warranted serious examination and we presumably resolved to do something about it.

We rail against Bevo's mystical ways but if the trend persists it's time the coaching & key support staff attracted the same attention.

How can we roll out so amateurishly to kick off a season?

[GVGjr]

This is the thing. The squad looks disorganised, dispirited,and horribly unprepared. And the results so far spell that out.

All this on the back of a lengthy pre-season, after a year where our culture and performance warranted serious examination and we presumably resolved to do something about it.

We rail against Bevo's mystical ways but if the trend persists it's time the coaching & key support staff attracted the same attention.

How can we roll out so amateurishly to kick off a season?

Coaching is a lot about perception, Bevo and the coaches are often being defended because they're not the ones on the field when the skill errors with the players occur. If we went back a few years ago the perception was that buck stopped with B-Mac because he was the head coach with those same skill errors.

I think we are often guilty of holding the coaches to impossibly high standards however, while many were happy to write off 2017 as a gap year we now need to be more willing to challenge the direction of the playing list under the coaches that have been in place for a while.

I tend to think that at the end of the 2016 season we got a few things horribly wrong at the trade period and at the draft.
We chased Hurley as hard as we could because he would improve our back line immensely but missed out. We then allowed Hamling to not only remain unsigned during the season but to go to Fremantle without identifying a suitable replacement or two. If we wanted both Hurley and Hamling then we didn't do much to get back into the market despite being cashed up. On top of that at the same time Adams flagged he wouldn't mind heading home as well. We eased Minson into retirement without identifying some support for Roughead and Campbell and then threw our multi million dollar investment in Tom Boyd into the ruck to cover injuries to the two.
We drafted Cloke which was a decent deal but it never quite worked.

At the draft table I think we missed out on the players we coveted which topped off a pre-season that should have been consolidating on the considerable ground we gained but came up well short.

On top of that during the 2017 season some of the players weren't as focused as they should have been and we appeared to have accepted that to some extent before trying to get them back on board. Stringer paid the price for his distractions but others didn't.


So we entered the 2018 season with a long pre-season with a new look list but possibly unbalanced but have looked 2nd rate against the two sides that we have played. Some injuries have further tested the unbalanced list.

I'm confident we aren't in a rebuild although if we don't lift the work rate we might have to consider it much later in the season but we now just have to put some faith into Bevo and the coaches to work through the challenges.

Selecting better balanced teams might help, lifting the work rate will help and of course hoping for a lift in form from many of the players will start the ball rolling.

[bornadog]

Coaching is a lot about perception, Bevo and the coaches are often being defended because they're not the ones on the field when the skill errors with the players occur. If we went back a few years ago the perception was that buck stopped with B-Mac because he was the head coach with those same skill errors.

The problem with B-Mac was he really had no game plan. His idea was we don't care about winning, what we have to do is teach cont. poss. and then we will worry about the game and winning in future years. I have never seen it in my life time, but there were several occasions when in the middle of a game, B-Mac was not even watching but he had his back to the play and he was trying to teach a player about the game. I ahve no doubt we have the skills levels at training, but in game time we panic under pressure, and turn the ball over.

At present we are playing 11 players with less than 50 games and 10 of those had less than 30 games. Do you think the MC really wants this - of course not, they have to contend with injuries and available players. Daniel was rushed back in but played one of his worse games.

Hopefully the likes of Wallis, Dickson, Boyd have found some form at VFL level and can come in this week.

[SonofScray]

We cant' be, surely? If we are, that's a disgraceful situation to be in after years of building under BMAC already. 5 years at a time for one successful season just can't be the formula. It can't be. I accept that retirements, injuries and age profile of the sides we are putting up is having a massive, detrimental impact on us. But we've won VFL and AFL flags in recent history, the talent is there.

It is really unsatisfying to think that we probably debunked half a dozen known truths in footy on our way to the flag, generated a shift that is delivering a better quality of football in 2018 for the league but have been caught out as others have set sail.

I've never been a sack the coach person. I defended BMAC to the death and dearly love Bevo. Rohde & Eade it was clear their time was up. I'm not certain what I want yet, but my gut says something has gone horribly wrong and rather than wait for the scrutiny to get white hot and relationships fracture, get out in front and start sacking people.

[chef]

For me these aren't the questions we should be asking. I hate to ask the question because we all love Bevo but has he lost the players? I see a team that lacks effort, hunger, fight, intensity, a want to work hard for your team mate & a genuine care for each other.

Im starting to feel like he has. Hope im wrong.

[ratsmac]

I wonder if the way Bevo dealt with Stringer has rubbed a few senior players up the wrong way. Total speculation but like many I sit here scratching my head how Beveridge can't seem to get a response from the team.

Once we get our best available players all on the park it might paint a different picture than how things look right now, but by the time that actually happens I think our season will be all but over so we may as well play the kids anyway.

[bornadog]

I wonder if the way Bevo dealt with Stringer has rubbed a few senior players up the wrong way. Total speculation but like many I sit here scratching my head how Beveridge can't seem to get a response from the team.

Once we get our best available players all on the park it might paint a different picture than how things look right now, but by the time that actually happens I think our season will be all but over so we may as well play the kids anyway.

I really am of the belief that Bevo has not lost the players, he has no choice in who is being picked due to injuries and form.

From the injury list we have Libba, Morris, Adams, Picken, Crozier, Smith missing then top off with Wallis, Dickson and Boyd having interrupted seasons and the suff up with Redpath. That is 10 players that could be playing, almost half the team.

[Eastdog]

The problem with B-Mac was he really had no game plan. His idea was we don't care about winning, what we have to do is teach cont. poss. and then we will worry about the game and winning in future years. I have never seen it in my life time, but there were several occasions when in the middle of a game, B-Mac was not even watching but he had his back to the play and he was trying to teach a player about the game. I ahve no doubt we have the skills levels at training, but in game time we panic under pressure, and turn the ball over.

At present we are playing 11 players with less than 50 games and 10 of those had less than 30 games. Do you think the MC really wants this - of course not, they have to contend with injuries and available players. Daniel was rushed back in but played one of his worse games.

Hopefully the likes of Wallis, Dickson, Boyd have found some form at VFL level and can come in this week.

Wallis and Dickson a chance to be selected but Boyd's game from the VFL report from Smads on Saturday wasn't very good. Despite that will he in the running to be selected?

[Twodogs]

I tend to think that at the end of the 2016 season we got a few things horribly wrong at the trade period and at the draft.
We chased Hurley as hard as we could because he would improve our back line immensely but missed out. We then allowed Hamling to not only remain unsigned during the season but to go to Fremantle without identifying a suitable replacement or two. If we wanted both Hurley and Hamling then we didn't do much to get back into the market despite being cashed up.


I'm still pretty annoyed that we let Hamling waltz out the door without really majing a protest. I understand his dad was sick and he wanted to see more of him but surely we could have found a way around it? We let the current premiership fullback walk and got a third rounder, how the hell did that happen?

From what I can make out that was the start of the fall. We had to make a stand when Freo offered up some magic beans and say "sorry, that's not a good enough offer" and "you are taking advantage of a situation where you should be much more understanding. We understand why he wants to go but this is a professional competition and the recompense you are offering for losing the bloke who has just panted Buddy Franklyn and Cyril Rioli inside 3 weeks isn't commensurate with his current market value" but we just rolled over and let them tickle our tummy.

[jeemak]

I think I heard across two different conversations commentators acknowledging we are extremely young at present. This needs to be the narrative until we get some experience into the side, hopefully between now and then we can address the attitudinal issues we all see.

[Sedat]

I know what you are saying in terms of 'game-style' but knowing what a team is going to do and actually being able to do something about it are NOT the same thing.

The best teams have the best habits and are completely predictable to one another...sure, the opposition know what is happening as well but good luck stopping it. Our players seem completely surprised at almost EVERYTHING that happens on gameday - there is no cohesion around/behind the ball and no shape in front of the contest.

Part of the problem with trying things like 'Wood forward' and those sort of things ALL summer is that when the season starts, well, how can things possibly be 'in sync'? How can you possibly have well established habits?
During our magucal month in Sep 2016 we had a settled line-up and a predictable game plan.

What we've done at match commitee and selection in the last 24 games has been the opposite - multiple changes week to week in personnel, and multiple positional changes with the players.

It's like we've adopted the Dutch 'total football' model from fhe 1970's for the sake of it, whereby any player can play any position on the ground. Give me predictability of selections and positions every day of the week.

[Twodogs]

We've been worked out it seems, and based on what we've dished up its fairly easy to play against us. You simply wait for an unforced turnover or a kick to the hot spot, back yourselves to win the ball and then run hard in transition and score many, easy goals.

Is that the result of inexperienced defenders not standing or moving tge zone so it's easy to pick apart? No Moz, Murph or Boyd left to follow either.


I'm not sure we're rebuilding. We can't afford the luxury to come out and say/do that, however based on the sides we've put on the park it's what I'd call a 'refresh'. We're giving ourselves a chance to have a look at quite a few players who may or may not be there at seasons end similar to what we did in 2015 with Ayce and a couple of others. Players like Williams, HC and Webb are really playing for their careers this year as despite still being young, they need to establish themselves as consistent senior footballers.


Jarryd Grant got a 22 game audition which he failed that season too.


Putting aide selection and structure, we have some definicines with our game plan we need to work on. Bombing it to 30m out didn't work very well in the first half yesterday. In the second half we managed to lock the ball in our F50 a bit better and create some opportunities with repeat entries, but again our inability to lower the eyes or have a moving target and space to move the ball into wasn't there.

But we are hamstrung there with the limited kicking skills of the guys who invariably end up being the ones who kick the ball into the 50 most times. For one reason or another our lousy kicking for goal is permeating into other areas of the ground. Guys who weren't bad like Biggs can barely manage to hit targets 15 metres away.


Finally, our defensive transition is shot. I lost count of the times Lycett was matched on Daniel in transition. We have 3 key defenders playing!!! Why is the smallest man in the competition on Lycett??? We can't cover exit kicks once we turn the ball over and our inability to manage the opposition run and spread is a real concern. We need to run smarter, position ourselves better and turning the ball over in less dangerous areas would help too.

Lack of experience in the back six although Wood and JJ back in defence should have helped. A lack of defensive pressure in the midfield meant the ball pinged into their forward line a few times too many as well.

[Ghost Dog]

We are missing huge amounts of experience that can't magically spring forth from the ground. So I guess we are rebuilding.

[Sedat]

I tend to think that at the end of the 2016 season we got a few things horribly wrong at the trade period and at the draft.
We chased Hurley as hard as we could because he would improve our back line immensely but missed out. We then allowed Hamling to not only remain unsigned during the season but to go to Fremantle without identifying a suitable replacement or two. If we wanted both Hurley and Hamling then we didn't do much to get back into the market despite being cashed up. On top of that at the same time Adams flagged he wouldn't mind heading home as well. We eased Minson into retirement without identifying some support for Roughead and Campbell and then threw our multi million dollar investment in Tom Boyd into the ruck to cover injuries to the two.
We drafted Cloke which was a decent deal but it never quite worked.
You were one of the very few posters hot on this at the time and proven to be spot on. In hindsight we clearly didn't prune deep enough at the end of 2016, and it seems as though the Hamling and Adams discussions came out of the blue and weren't expected, especially as they came after we missed on Hurley. Even today there are players still on our list that were on the list in 2016 and have still yet to either play any senior games or barely a handful. List spots are pretty precious commodities.

I won't bag the club for getting Cloke - when he was fully fit we were 4-1 and benefiting from having a bigger body straightening us up and bringing the ball to ground up forward. The Ziebell hit on Good Friday cooked him prematurely.

[GVGjr]

You were one of the very few posters hot on this at the time and proven to be spot on. In hindsight we clearly didn't prune deep enough at the end of 2016, and it seems as though the Hamling and Adams discussions came out of the blue and weren't expected, especially as they came after we missed on Hurley. Even today there are players still on our list that were on the list in 2016 and have still yet to either play any senior games or barely a handful. List spots are pretty precious commodities.

I won't bag the club for getting Cloke - when he was fully fit we were 4-1 and benefiting from having a bigger body straightening us up and bringing the ball to ground up forward. The Ziebell hit on Good Friday cooked him prematurely.

I'm still of the belief that our footy department was not as focused as it should have been especially during that trade period.
Like you, I won't bag them for the Cloke trade but we had committed to him well before the seasons end because we thought he might make a difference in 2017. As it was too many of the players simply checked out, still took their pay mind you, and essentially promised better times would be had in 2018.
Stringer paid the price for his shenanigans but I hope that the likes of Dahlhaus and Liberatore where given a very honest and frank appraisal of their performance and conduct in 2017.