Fixing our ****ing awful goal kicking

[Dry Rot]

Every year, the Dogs v Swans games are a mini grand final for me. I cannot recall being so flat and angry as I was after last weekend.

What is worse, as the game progressed, I just knew this player or that would miss at goal. And they did. Even in front.

Moving on, we all know this is a serious problem and we can only presume so do the coaches. But it hasn't improved, or its even got worse.

So what should the club be doing?

Can goal kicking be fixed, or have we drafted the wrong players?

If significant improvements can be made, how come we seem to haven't done anything about this?

[Twodogs]

Can goal kicking be fixed





I posted this in the three things thread but seeing as how you've asked;


Yes. I will keep saying it and saying it, most of our goalkicking problems comes down to technique. I could take Luke Dalhaus or Josh Dunkley and have them kicking straight(er) inside 15 minutes.

It's not hard. There are basically four things to remember: Take a deep breath, Run in a straight line, keep your head over the ball (even after its hit your foot keep your bloody head down-just like you are driving a golf ball. You don't look at the hole as you hit the ball do you?) and follow through. AND DONT BLOODY TWIRL THE BALL IN YOUR HANDS AS YOU RUN TO TAKE YOUR KICK!!!!!!!! That's the one that really drives me mad, how are you supposed to drop the ball properly onto your foot if you are twirling the bloody thing in your hands????

This is what drives me mad. It's only as complicated as you want to make it. As Basil said to Manuel, this is not a proposition from wittgenstein it's an easy fix and it will win us games in the short term.


As for:


have we drafted the wrong players?

We can't afford to keep drafting guys who are suspect by foot because we can only hide so many players who can't kick surely? The club will have to get serious about getting some players in who can kick the ball. Because we are just about at critical mass.

[Greystache]

We were the worst in the AFL last season, converting at 42% having gotten worse from the previous year. This year we're worse again.

It's not a problem.

[Mofra]

Easily fixed. Hire Rocca.

He turned Casboult from a Bulldogs-forward-bad kick for goal into a reliable set shot inside one season.
When you're winning most stats and having more shots on goal than the opposition and still losing than finishing is vital.

[Ozza]

Bevo was asked about it on Talking Footy, and sort of danced around it and didn't really address the question.

[Greystache]

Bevo was asked about it on Talking Footy, and sort of danced around it and didn't really address the question.

He kind of made mention that goal kicking is something that naturally improves as the players gain more experience. This is consistent with the message I've heard being given to the players over the past 3 years. It also coincides with us going from one of the poorer goal kicking teams to dead last and falling further.

[Axe Man]

He kind of made mention that goal kicking is something that naturally improves as the players gain more experience. This is consistent with the message I've heard being given to the players over the past 3 years. It also coincides with us going from one of the poorer goal kicking teams to dead last and falling further.

At the current rate of improvement Dahlhaus may be a good kick at goal when he is 50 after 600 odd games.

[Cyberdoggie]

Unfortunately certain players aren't great shots for goal and others are. We just happen to have quite a few that aren't good under pressure with set shots.

Dahlhaus (bad ball drop, has a natural hooked kicking action)
Suckling (Yes I misses the ones he should get, swans game a good example. Bizarre kicking action means high risk, low percentage accuracy)
Hunter (high ball drop, leans back when shooting for goal)
Jong (runs in a straight line off to the right to get distance but ends up kicking with a straight kicking action, so it goes straight to the right)
Boyd (Mental demons)
Dunkley (some ball drop issues but mostly just leans back)
Bont (has the Buddy left footers arc, so low percentage on set shots. Mostly leans back so it goes left.

The more reliable ones are:
Libba (simple technique, stays over the ball, no difference between his long and short shots)
Wallis (stays over the ball, runs straight. Has a dodgy ball drop as well but it usually goes straight because he runs straight)
McLean (in range he's usually pretty good, outside his technique falls away when he goes on an arc)
Redpath (simple and straight. Sometimes tries to stab at it too hard but he's pretty reliable)
Dickson (Head over the ball, lovely ball drop, even if he arc's it a bit.)


I am keen observer with goal kicking techniques and you can always tell in the run up when they are going to miss.
As soon as they start drifting off a straight line to get more distance, the accuracy goes way down. You are increasing the chances of a hook, shank or just kicking it dead straight on the line you are running in on, which is to the right for a right footer.

Key points for a straight kick are: run in a straight line, low guided ball drop, head over the ball (don't lean back on the kick).
It's not that hard.

[bornadog]

Bevo was asked about it on Talking Footy, and sort of danced around it and didn't really address the question.

I thought he just didn't want to air things publicly, especially if players are watching the interview.

[Twodogs]

He kind of made mention that goal kicking is something that naturally improves as the players gain more experience. This is consistent with the message I've heard being given to the players over the past 3 years. It also coincides with us going from one of the poorer goal kicking teams to dead last and falling further.

That's crazy talk. Players don't natural improve. They get taught.

That system just means players are practising mistakes, and getting better at doing things the wrong way.


Unfortunately certain players aren't great shots for goal and others are. We just happen to have quite a few that aren't good under pressure with set shots.

Dahlhaus (bad ball drop, has a natural hooked kicking action)
Suckling (Yes I misses the ones he should get, swans game a good example. Bizarre kicking action means high risk, low percentage accuracy)
Hunter (high ball drop, leans back when shooting for goal)
Jong (runs in a straight line off to the right to get distance but ends up kicking with a straight kicking action, so it goes straight to the right)
Boyd (Mental demons)
Dunkley (some ball drop issues but mostly just leans back)
Bont (has the Buddy left footers arc, so low percentage on set shots. Mostly leans back so it goes left.

The more reliable ones are:
Libba (simple technique, stays over the ball, no difference between his long and short shots)
Wallis (stays over the ball, runs straight. Has a dodgy ball drop as well but it usually goes straight because he runs straight)
McLean (in range he's usually pretty good, outside his technique falls away when he goes on an arc)
Redpath (simple and straight. Sometimes tries to stab at it too hard but he's pretty reliable)
Dickson (Head over the ball, lovely ball drop, even if he arc's it a bit.)


I am keen observer with goal kicking techniques and you can always tell in the run up when they are going to miss.
As soon as they start drifting off a straight line to get more distance, the accuracy goes way down. You are increasing the chances of a hook, shank or just kicking it dead straight on the line you are running in on, which is to the right for a right footer.

Key points for a straight kick are: run in a straight line, low guided ball drop, head over the ball (don't lean back on the kick).
It's not that hard.

Precisely. It's not rocket science.

Right footers kicks fade toward the end when they go for more distance, left footers kicks fade.

[Eastdog]

It is a huge issue for a number of years for us and even in the year we won the flag 2016 it still was an issue.

Bevo needs to listen to us woofers on this goal kicking issue and really tackle this problem. It cost us the game last Saturday for sure. We had 24 scoring shots and they had 21. In the win the previous week 14.20 we could have easily won that by over 40 if we just kicked accurately.

Fitness is through the roof nowadays but basic skill level and goal kicking are well down. If these are addressed will be much more dangerous particularly playing with the manic pressure we have for the last 2 weeks.

Our scores:

R1 - 7.9
R2 - 9.16
R3 - 14.20
R4 - 11.13

More behinds than goals so far this year.

[bornadog]

It is a huge issue for a number of years for us and even in the year we won the flag 2016 it still was an issue.

Bevo needs to listen to us woofers on this goal kicking issue and really tackle this problem. It cost us the game last Saturday for sure. We had 24 scoring shots and they had 21. In the win the previous week 14.20 we could have easily won that by over 40 if we just kicked accurately.

Fitness is through the roof nowadays but basic skill level and goal kicking are well down. If these are addressed will be much more dangerous particularly playing with the manic pressure we have for the last 2 weeks.

Our scores:

R1 - 7.9
R2 - 9.16
R3 - 14.20
R4 - 11.13

More behinds than goals so far this year.

Yeah woofers know better than a premiership coach.

[Eastdog]

Yeah woofers know better than a premiership coach.

Bevo has turned our side around in the last 2 weeks so a huge plus for him but need to get on top of the goal kicking.

[SlimPickens]

Our scores:

R1 - 7.9
R2 - 9.16
R3 - 14.20
R4 - 11.13

More behinds than goals so far this year.


This isn't the full story and i feel that it simplifies the issue. For example this week we kicked 11.10, with 3 rushed behinds. Some that didn't make the distance or ended up on the full. Not sure what the full story is, but would suggest it's not a simple as goals and behinds on the scoreboard.

[Eastdog]

This isn't the full story and i feel that it simplifies the issue. For example this week we kicked 11.10, with 3 rushed behinds. Some that didn't make the distance or ended up on the full. Not sure what the full story is, but would suggest it's not a simple as goals and behinds on the scoreboard.

Yes true includes rushed behinds in those final scores. We got a difficult shot in though from Wallis - that goal was a beauty but we didn't win the game.

[Greystache]

This isn't the full story and i feel that it simplifies the issue. For example this week we kicked 11.10, with 3 rushed behinds. Some that didn't make the distance or ended up on the full. Not sure what the full story is, but would suggest it's not a simple as goals and behinds on the scoreboard.

Spot on. It's not just the behinds, the number of times we don't make the distance from 35-40m out with a limp attempt, or put it out on the full blows that number out dramatically. We would conservatively has 5 outright misses a game on average.

[hujsh]

Maybe it's calculated? Think of it this way, is it easier to kick more goals that the opposition or equal goals? That's right it's easier to match their goals. So if you do that then all you need is the extra points and you win every time.

[bornadog]

One of the things we don't do is really put away a team. Classic example is last week against Essendon, we should have won that game by over 10 goals, but with inaccurate goal kicking, we actually gave them a sniff in the last 5 minutes.

[Ghost Dog]

Spot on. It's not just the behinds, the number of times we don't make the distance from 35-40m out with a limp attempt, or put it out on the full blows that number out dramatically. We would conservatively has 5 outright misses a game on average.

I can accept fatigue being an issue in a last quarter, but these guys train day in and out. I can't really understand why we would get more than 2-3 out-on-the-fulls per game via set shots in this professional era ( unless it was from the boundary ).

[S Coast Simon]

Because we don’t have a big forward taking grabs most of our shots on goal from marks are out near the boundary. If one of the big boys can take a few grabs thirty out dead in front we might have a chance

[Remi Moses]

How does Dahlhaus’s kicking for goal got worse ! I noticed his horrific ball drop on Saturday !
We have to be working on these issues FFS !!

[jeemak]

Spot on. It's not just the behinds, the number of times we don't make the distance from 35-40m out with a limp attempt, or put it out on the full blows that number out dramatically. We would conservatively has 5 outright misses a game on average.

I think we had 7 non scores from shots at goal against Sydney.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Much of it is that we simply keep drafting players who are horrendous by foot: Dahlhaus, Dunkley, Gowers, Jong etc.

They win the ball because they present well, mark well and have great aggression at the contest but the reality is that none of them are good by foot, period. The fact that they can't kick goals isn't a surprise.

We need to draft in genuine forwards who use it well. We'll never improve (or won't improve enough) with the current cattle, as evidenced by the last 3-4 years.

[Twodogs]

Much of it is that we simply keep drafting players who are horrendous by foot: Dahlhaus, Dunkley, Gowers, Jong etc.

They win the ball because they present well, mark well and have great aggression at the contest but the reality is that none of them are good by foot, period. The fact that they can't kick goals isn't a surprise.

We need to draft in genuine forwards who use it well. We'll never improve (or won't improve enough) with the current cattle, as evidenced by the last 3-4 years.


Agreed. We should have made footskills a priority a couple of drafts ago. As much as I dislike the idea of drafting to order we really have to start putting a premium on guys who can kick or we are in for a frustrating few years.

We just have to get some players who can kick the ball well. I'm really concerned that we are actually going backwards in our kicking. Bad kicking is like dropped catches in cricket it's contagious. I don't know if players lose their dare and get more worried about not stuffing up rather than creating but blokes like Biggs who wasn't a bad kick previously regularly misses targets by 5-10 metres these days.

[bornadog]

Much of it is that we simply keep drafting players who are horrendous by foot: Dahlhaus, Dunkley, Gowers, Jong etc.

They win the ball because they present well, mark well and have great aggression at the contest but the reality is that none of them are good by foot, period. The fact that they can't kick goals isn't a surprise.

We need to draft in genuine forwards who use it well. We'll never improve (or won't improve enough) with the current cattle, as evidenced by the last 3-4 years.

I wouldn't include Jong in that lot. He has improved tremendously over the past few years and nailed a difficult shot in the first quarter Saturday.

Jong has other issues - he needs to get more of the ball and make the right decision when he gets it.

[Axe Man]

Agreed. We should have made footskills a priority a couple of drafts ago. As much as I dislike the idea of drafting to order we really have to start putting a premium on guys who can kick or we are in for a frustrating few years.

We just have to get some players who can kick the ball well. I'm really concerned that we are actually going backwards in our kicking. Bad kicking is like dropped catches in cricket it's contagious. I don't know if players lose their dare and get more worried about not stuffing up rather than creating but blokes like Biggs who wasn't a bad kick previously regularly misses targets by 5-10 metres these days.

Are our footskills in general play that bad though? Certainly the last 2 weeks I thought they have been pretty good.

I did a bit of research and so far this season we have the 3rd highest disposal efficiency and the lowest average clangers in the league. We are mid-range for turnovers. I know these stats incorporate things other than kicking, but it does indicate that our field kicking isn't too bad. Our goal kicking on the other hand...

[bornadog]

Are our footskills in general play that bad though? Certainly the last 2 weeks I thought they have been pretty good.

I did a bit of research and so far this season we have the 3rd highest disposal efficiency and the lowest average clangers in the league. We are mid-range for turnovers. I know these stats incorporate things other than kicking, but it does indicate that our field kicking isn't too bad. Our goal kicking on the other hand...

At one stage against the Swans we were running at 82% dis.eff. (first half) We are also hitting targets in the forward line with way more marks inside 50 than the past few seasons. Just have to nail those goals.

[Twodogs]

Are our footskills in general play that bad though? Certainly the last 2 weeks I thought they have been pretty good.

I did a bit of research and so far this season we have the 3rd highest disposal efficiency and the lowest average clangers in the league. We are mid-range for turnovers. I know these stats incorporate things other than kicking, but it does indicate that our field kicking isn't too bad. Our goal kicking on the other hand...

We miss targets in the forward 50 a lot but that could be a number of factors like the forward's static nature or pressure on the ball carrier.

[Greystache]

From the Herald-Sun

GOALKICKING cost the Western Bulldogs victory against Sydney and almost denied them the four points against Essendon a week earlier.

Forget Josh Dunkley’s missed mark in front of goal late in the last quarter when the Bulldogs were on the charge, this contest could have been in their grasp well before that critical moment.

The Bulldogs finished the match with 11.13, which means they’ve yet to kick more goals than behinds in a game this season.

Dunkley (0.4) and Matthew Suckling (0.3) were the culprits against the Swans, while Luke Dahlhaus had two shots that didn’t score.

In the last quarter, Mitch Honeychurch and Caleb Daniel also had attempts that failed to make the distance.


Josh Dunkley kicked four behinds against the Swans. Picture: Michael Klein
The Dogs lost by seven points despite 18 more inside 50s.

For the second straight season the Bulldogs’ goalkicking accuracy is ranked the worst in the AFL.

This season they’re tracking at 37.6 per cent accuracy, which has dropped from 43.1 per cent in 2017.

Their total of 41 goals this season is ranked 14th, but fortunately for Luke Beveridge, his team finding ways into their attacking zone, ranking sixth for entries inside 50.

St Kilda, however, has the biggest problems in front goal than the Doggies.

Not only can’t the Saints kick goals (they kicked the least in the competition), their accuracy is terrible (ranked 17th) and they rank a lowly 16th for inside 50s.


Lance Franklin and the Swans are the best goalkickers in the league. Picture: Getty Images
On the other hand, Sydney is rated the second worst for inside 50 entries but is the best goalkicking team in the competition at 56.4 per cent, which no doubt has contributed to its 3-1 start.

Collingwood’s goalkicking woes were much-publicised last year but the Magpies have sharpened their skills in front of goal dramatically in 2018, ranking fourth at 54.6 per cent.

Melbourne has been a big slider, ranking No.1 for goalkicking in 2017 to 14th this season, failing to captailise on its inside-50 domination (ranked first).

Max Gawn has been in the spotlight after missing a few gettable chances but he isn’t alone at the Demons.

Goalkicking accuracy %

2018 2017
1. Sydney 56.4 49.3 (eq 7th)
2. Hawthorn 56.3 51.9 (4th)
3. West Coast 55.9 52.1 (3rd)
4. Collingwood 54.6 47.1 (14th)
5. Adelaide 52.9 51.8 (5th)
6. Geelong 52.7 48.9 (eq 10th)
7. Richmond 50.8 46.8 (15th)
8. Essendon 50.5 48.8 (12th)
9. North Melbourne 48 48.9 (eq 10th)
10. Port Adelaide 47.9 46.1 (16th)
11. Carlton 47.6 49 (9th)
12. GWS 47.5 48.7 (13th)
13. Fremantle 46.9 49.3 (eq 7th)
14. Melbourne 44.3 54.2 (1st)
15. Gold Coast 44.1 50.6 (6th)
16. Brisbane 43.7 52.2 (2nd)
17. St Kilda 39.8 45.5 (17th)
18. Western Bulldogs 37.6 43.1 (18th)

GOALS KICKED

1. West Coast — 66

2. Hawthorn — 63

3. Richmond — 60

eq 4. Geelong — 58

eq 4. GWS — 58

6. Sydney — 57

eq 7. Essendon — 56

eq 7. Port Adelaide — 56

9. Adelaide — 54

10. Collingwood — 53

11. Melbourne — 51

12. North Melbourne — 49

13. Fremantle — 45

eq 14. Western Bulldogs — 41

eq 14. Gold Coast 41

16. Carlton — 39

17. Brisbane — 38

18. St Kilda — 35


INSIDE 50s

1. Melbourne — 239

2. West Coast — 235

3. Richmond — 228

eq 4. Hawthorn — 227

eq 4. GWS — 227

6. Western Bulldogs — 221

7. Fremantle — 220

8. Collingwood — 219

9. Adelaide — 217

eq 10. Port Adelaide — 216

eq 10. North Melbourne — 216

12. Carlton — 211

13. Gold Coast — 209

14. Essendon — 206

15. Geelong — 201

16. St Kilda — 198

17. Sydney 196

18. Brisbane — 183

LINK (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/afl-goalkicking-best-and-worst-clubs-after-four-rounds/news-story/aed19b633d2800ebc8ae9472c566eb40)

[Greystache]

Last and getting worse.

It's not an issue.

[bornadog]

Last and getting worse.

It's not an issue.

You keep posting that, but do you really think the club would think like that? It would be playing on the players minds every time they have a shot.

On a positive: The great news is we are actually getting the ball into the 50 and giving ourselves a chance. I would hate to be the Saints.

[Greystache]

You keep posting that, but do you really think the club would think like that? It would be playing on the players minds every time they have a shot.

On a positive: The great news is we are actually getting the ball into the 50 and giving ourselves a chance. I would hate to be the Saints.

No, it's just a guess. It couldn't possibly be that I know or anything.

[bornadog]

No, it's just a guess. It couldn't possibly be that I know or anything.

We all know it is a major problem, and discussing it is great, but................ forget it, I will leave it at that.

[Twodogs]

Nope. No problem that I can see.


Only half the teams in the comp are going at more than 50% I wonder if coaches put it down to wonderful defending and that's why they are loathe to do anything about it?

[MrMahatma]

I thought he just didn't want to air things publicly, especially if players are watching the interview.

I hoped that was the case. Hope is very intangible. But... in Bevo we trust...right?

If I ran a club, I'd hire:
- the best recruiter
- the best goal kicking coach
- the best development coach

Pay them 90% of the coaches wage and your tactics won't matter so much. You won't need to find a reason not to play rucks or worry about where your goals will come from.

ABC - always be closing. Our forward can't close. If they worked in sales, they'd be fired.

[Ghost Dog]

I hoped that was the case. Hope is very intangible. But... in Bevo we trust...right?

If I ran a club, I'd hire:
- the best recruiter
- the best goal kicking coach
- the best development coach

Pay them 90% of the coaches wage and your tactics won't matter so much. You won't need to find a reason not to play rucks or worry about where your goals will come from.

ABC - always be closing. Our forward can't close. If they worked in sales, they'd be fired.

Kicking is always a bit wayward at the start of the season.

[Mofra]

Kicking is always a bit wayward at the start of the season.
The issue is ours is more wayward than the other teams in front of the sticks.

I honestly think we do have a problem that is not all down to recruiting poor kicks.
If Clay Smith can somehow become semi-reliable when kicking for goal and Levi Casboult can be transformed within 18 months from the worst KPF set shot in the competition to statistically elite - not only is goal-kicking fixable, it's fixable within the timeframe of most player contracts.

[Greystache]

The issue is ours is more wayward than the other teams in front of the sticks.

I honestly think we do have a problem that is not all down to recruiting poor kicks.
If Clay Smith can somehow become semi-reliable when kicking for goal and Levi Casboult can be transformed within 18 months from the worst KPF set shot in the competition to statistically elite - not only is goal-kicking fixable, it's fixable within the timeframe of most player contracts.

The strange thing is Clay Smith has always been a good kick for goal. After Dickson he's probably the player I'd choose next. His kicking technique can fall apart under pressure in open play, but give him a set shot at goal and he's very accurate.

[Greystache]

Unfortunately certain players aren't great shots for goal and others are. We just happen to have quite a few that aren't good under pressure with set shots.

Dahlhaus (bad ball drop, has a natural hooked kicking action)
Suckling (Yes I misses the ones he should get, swans game a good example. Bizarre kicking action means high risk, low percentage accuracy)
Hunter (high ball drop, leans back when shooting for goal)
Jong (runs in a straight line off to the right to get distance but ends up kicking with a straight kicking action, so it goes straight to the right)
Boyd (Mental demons)
Dunkley (some ball drop issues but mostly just leans back)
Bont (has the Buddy left footers arc, so low percentage on set shots. Mostly leans back so it goes left.

I would say Hunter is one of the few players whose goal kicking has improved over the past few years. Early on he was a terrible kick for goal who you'd back to miss from anywhere. He's improved to the point where you'd give him a pretty good chance of converting most shots. Why he's improved while most have gone backwards is anyone's guess.

[Twodogs]

The strange thing is Clay Smith has always been a good kick for goal. After Dickson he's probably the player I'd choose next. His kicking technique can fall apart under pressure in open play, but give him a set shot at goal and he's very accurate.


He just likes to see his name in the paper on Wednesday.

[Twodogs]

The issue is ours is more wayward than the other teams in front of the sticks.

I honestly think we do have a problem that is not all down to recruiting poor kicks.
If Clay Smith can somehow become semi-reliable when kicking for goal and Levi Casboult can be transformed within 18 months from the worst KPF set shot in the competition to statistically elite - not only is goal-kicking fixable, it's fixable within the timeframe of most player contracts.

Yep it can be fixed and it's incredibly annoying when people who work in the football industry think it can't or just flat out refuse to address it.

[Greystache]

He just likes to see his name in the paper on Wednesday.

He could've seen it 4 times at half time on the internet in the prelim final. I'll never forget his game that day!

[Twodogs]

He could've seen it 4 times at half time on the internet in the prelim final. I'll never forget his game that day!

It's not the same as waiting for the Mail to come out on Wednesday just to see your name in the goal kickers for Kingsville!

If you made 20 or took 3 wickets you get mentioned on the match scores too.

[bornadog]

Sounds easy to fix goal kicking, but the big factor is kicking under pressure in a game. Players can look great at training, slotting the ball through from every angle, but put them in front of a crowd, in a match and the mind games come into play.

You can really see that with Dunkley, Dahl and now Suckling. We need to fix the mind just as much as the way the ball is kicked. When some players just have a snap at goal and don't concentrate on the kick they are better. I think Buddy for example is one of those players. Missed four set shots on Saturday.

[Twodogs]

Sounds easy to fix goal kicking, but the big factor is kicking under pressure in a game. Players can look great at training, slotting the ball through from every angle, but put them in front of a crowd, in a match and the mind games come into play.

You can really see that with Dunkley, Dahl and now Suckling. We need to fix the mind just as much as the way the ball is kicked. When some players just have a snap at goal and don't concentrate on the kick they are better. I think Buddy for example is one of those players. Missed four set shots on Saturday.

Putting someone on the mark at training when they are practising goalkicking would help. At least try and replicate match conditions as much as possible.

[westdog54]

He could've seen it 4 times at half time on the internet in the prelim final. I'll never forget his game that day!

And yet he missed a fairly easy set shot at qtr time. All four goals were on the run.

[The bulldog tragician]

Putting someone on the mark at training when they are practising goalkicking would help. At least try and replicate match conditions as much as possible.

On that subject, why is Caleb Daniel seemingly always on the mark when opposition take set shots??

[Eastdog]

Putting someone on the mark at training when they are practising goalkicking would help. At least try and replicate match conditions as much as possible.

Yes that's ideally what you want to try and do at training.

I think it has been mentioned before but can this be taught to players or is it innate and you just can't teach them to improve. I think you and Cyberdoggie came up with some suggestions.

[Eastdog]

He could've seen it 4 times at half time on the internet in the prelim final. I'll never forget his game that day!

What a 2016 final series he had.

[Flamethrower]

Yes that's ideally what you want to try and do at training.

I think it has been mentioned before but can this be taught to players or is it innate and you just can't teach them to improve. I think you and Cyberdoggie came up with some suggestions.

Players can be taught a new technique, but the problem is that there is belief that to learn a new technique takes 1000 repetitions, to use it takes 3000 reps, and to master it takes 10,000 reps.

Can you imagine the sports scientists being ok with players doing those sort of reps - they hate the players doing ANY goal kicking training.

[Eastdog]

Players can be taught a new technique, but the problem is that there is belief that to learn a new technique takes 1000 repetitions, to use it takes 3000 reps, and to master it takes 10,000 reps.

Can you imagine the sports scientists being ok with players doing those sort of reps - they hate the players doing ANY goal kicking training.

It's frustrating because I don't believe overall fitness is really a huge factor great example last weekend Tim English run last week that nearly got Florent.

[Twodogs]

Yes that's ideally what you want to try and do at training.

I think it has been mentioned before but can this be taught to players or is it innate and you just can't teach them to improve. I think you and Cyberdoggie came up with some suggestions.

It can be taught? The trick is to break it down to an easy to remember 4 or 5 step process. First of all forget everything you have ever learned about kicking for goal. Then remember 4 things after you have taken the mark or got the free kick. When you get to the top of your mark take a deep breath and try to relax and forget everything except you and the ball, that's number one. When you run in, run in a straight line, that's number two. When you kick the ball, make sure your head is over the ball when it hits your foot and don't lift your head that's number three. Numbers four and five don't exist. I just made them up to get your attention, if I'd said there were only 3 things you'd have stopped paying attention by now.

So you forget everything else and you remember straight line, balance, technique. It's not hard is it?


Players can be taught a new technique, but the problem is that there is belief that to learn a new technique takes 1000 repetitions, to use it takes 3000 reps, and to master it takes 10,000 reps.

Can you imagine the sports scientists being ok with players doing those sort of reps - they hate the players doing ANY goal kicking training.

I'm always suspicious of convenient rounded numbers. We are expected to believe that you will be significantly better at kicking after 10 000 repetitions than we would be after 9999? It's like a crowd figure of 25 583 is more believable than 25 000 or 26 000. I'm confident that if you keep the lesson simple enough they won't need 10 000 tries to get it right.

[Jeanette54]

One fault that is seen frequently is the player with the ball turns his back on the man on the mark as he walks back. This was one of EJ's pet peeves with his players. I remember him giving a quality demonstration as to why not. An opposition player took a mark at western oval and turned his back on Ted as he walked back. Ted immediately caught the umpires eye, and used his foot to establish the mark. By the time the player turned around to take his kick Ted was standing a few yards behind the mark. Result, as the player took his kick Ted ran to the true mark, and smothered the kick.

Also EJ had a very short ball drop, stooping quite low until contact was made with the ball. The statue outside the ground is no artistic licence, he really was that well balanced when kicking.

[Ghost Dog]

Nick Riewoldts dramatic change in kicking style and effort to get better - did it help his conversion? I have to check.

[macca]

I was reading an article on SEN about Clarkson's recruitment, and one of the first things he did was bring in a kicking coach. Cannot find the damn link but its evident then and ingrained now in the Hawks' DNA that they take a high priority on players with good kicking skills.

some reading from wiki in 2010: "A poor start to 2010 when the club lost six out its first seven games the team finally abandoned the cluster for a more precision kicking style. ". Another interesting article on some of the skills development in the Hawks regime:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-07-22/alastair-clarkson-the-coach-whisperer


If they held their nerve in the 2011 prelimin against the pies, they could have won the GF that year. I recall a lot of good field kicking and keepings off the pies in that game.

The question I want to ask is, where is our kicking coach?

[Dry Rot]

Mind games: How AFL star Luke Shuey performs under pressure

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-20/luke-shuey-how-an-afl-star-executes-under-pressure/9673002?section=sport

Very relevant to this goal kicking thread

[Eastdog]

We kicked more goals than behinds last night but didn't have many scoring shots.

[Bulldog4life]

I was reading an article on SEN about Clarkson's recruitment, and one of the first things he did was bring in a kicking coach. Cannot find the damn link but its evident then and ingrained now in the Hawks' DNA that they take a high priority on players with good kicking skills.

some reading from wiki in 2010: "A poor start to 2010 when the club lost six out its first seven games the team finally abandoned the cluster for a more precision kicking style. ". Another interesting article on some of the skills development in the Hawks regime:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-07-22/alastair-clarkson-the-coach-whisperer


If they held their nerve in the 2011 prelimin against the pies, they could have won the GF that year. I recall a lot of good field kicking and keepings off the pies in that game.

The question I want to ask is, where is our kicking coach?

The Saints have got one in Ben Dixon. They have kicked 45 goals 64 behinds this year!

[Bullies]

Listening to Brad Scott he said Ben Brown has 100's of kicks at goal at training every week. Scott over rides the Sports Scientist and lets him kick at goal as long as he wants. He said with every kick he goes through the same routine even at training and he just loves having shots. Maybe our guys need to get to basics and what better to improve their skills. Seems the skill part of football has been left behind.

[Eastdog]

Listening to Brad Scott he said Ben Brown has 100's of kicks at goal at training every week. Scott over rides the Sports Scientist and lets him kick at goal as long as he wants. He said with every kick he goes through the same routine even at training and he just loves having shots. Maybe our guys need to get to basics and what better to improve their skills. Seems the skill part of football has been left behind.

I believe today:

Player speed = very high
Player skill = very low

We need skill level to be better. Our skills on Saturday were awful.

[Twodogs]

Listening to Brad Scott he said Ben Brown has 100's of kicks at goal at training every week. Scott over rides the Sports Scientist and lets him kick at goal as long as he wants. He said with every kick he goes through the same routine even at training and he just loves having shots. Maybe our guys need to get to basics and what better to improve their skills. Seems the skill part of football has been left behind.


That's exactly what we need to do. Some guys are worse than others and need real remedial work. I don't know what they have been doing whilst on an AFL list apart from mastering the basics of the game. it's pretty outrageous that some blokes are playing professional football that can't kick properly and nothing has been done about it.

[Rocket Science]

Listening to Brad Scott he said Ben Brown has 100's of kicks at goal at training every week. Scott over rides the Sports Scientist and lets him kick at goal as long as he wants. He said with every kick he goes through the same routine even at training and he just loves having shots. Maybe our guys need to get to basics and what better to improve their skills. Seems the skill part of football has been left behind.

What's this? A footy player who actually WANTS to have a ping?

These days our blokes' faces resemble mine every time we line up for a set shot on a mild angle from 35 out, both before and after.

[Twodogs]

What's this? A footy player who actually WANTS to have a ping?

These days our blokes' faces resemble mine every time we line up for a set shot on a mild angle from 35 out, both before and after.


Silly boy, doesn't he understand that the sports scientists prevent him from practising footy for his own good. He might get a repetitive strain injury or become good at kicking at goal or something.

[Eastdog]

It's a vital part of the game yet doing a lot of it is discouraged.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Do we need a few of those targets behind the goal that the Melbourne cheer squad use?

Or maybe we could employ this:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=D7WJgToNRps

[bornadog]

Do we need a few of those targets behind the goal that the Melbourne cheer squad use?

Or maybe we could employ this:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=D7WJgToNRps


Funny

[bulldogtragic]

I assume this is going to be a popular thread again. Again. Again.

[jeemak]

It's just so embarrassing. Unprofessional and embarrassing. For all of the good things that our club has done over the last few years, this is a massive blight on the enjoyment it gives to fans.

[Twodogs]

It's just so embarrassing. Unprofessional and embarrassing. For all of the good things that our club has done over the last few years, this is a massive blight on the enjoyment it gives to fans.

It's frustrating watching them get all the difficult bits right and then piss all that work against the wall with kicking skills that 9 year olds would a/ be better at and b/ if by some unbelievable chance a 9 year old was a worse kick than our blokes they would fix it.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

And the story continues.

[Mantis]

Bont seems more interested in running down the clock, than kicking the goal... Just no routine & no confidence.

[Murphy'sLore]

I don't feel confident when ANY of our players have a set shot EVER any more. Just can't watch it.

[macca]

4 posters
Boyd 1.3
Bont .2
McLean 1.2
Dale 1.2
Jong 0.1 and one that did not make the distance

More points than goals
We won’t be a TOP 8 side if we can’t kick goals

Positive signs with straight kicks ?
Gowers 2
Lipinski 3

This was against a very ordinary side who is now zero wins from 6

[Mofra]

God that was bad. Boyd should have kicked 3.

[azabob]

God that was bad. Boyd should have kicked 3.

Bontempelli misses were worse.

[Axe Man]

Come on guys, we got the ball really close to going through the goals on a number of occasions.

[The bulldog tragician]

I always used to love Bont for the clutch goal but lately he has joined the long list of The Unreliables.

[bornadog]

We hit the left goal post three times. The Bont lining up 20 metres out and Craigisaheebee, says we haven't hit the other post yet, so The Bont hits it. :D

[Bulldog4life]

Bontempelli misses were worse.

They were both shocking considering one is our key forward and the other is our best player.

[GVGjr]

They were both shocking considering one is our key forward and the other is our best player.

Quality player, distance not an issue, set shot in a closed roof environment. It's hard to mount a case that Bontempelli is really in the elite players of the competition when he consistently cant make those shots.

[ledge]

Quality player, distance not an issue, set shot in a closed roof environment. It's hard to mount a case that Bontempelli is really in the elite players of the competition when he consistently cant make those shots.

He is elite in the fact he can hit a 50mil wide post from 30 metres out consistently , but can someone tell him the idea is not to hit it but put the ball between them?

[Twodogs]

He is elite in the fact he can hit a 50mil wide post from 30 metres out consistently , but can someone tell him the idea is not to hit it but put the ball between them?

I've always thought that hitting the post should count for more than one behind. It's harder to do so it should be worth two or three points.

Or it hits the post and goes goal side it's a goal and it hits the post and goes behind then it's a point. And if it hits the post and bounces back into play the ball is still live.

[bornadog]

I've always thought that hitting the post should count for more than one behind. It's harder to do so it should be worth two or three points.

Or it hits the post and goes goal side it's a goal and it hits the post and goes behind then it's a point. And if it hits the post and bounces back into play the ball is still live.

No thanks.

[Twodogs]

No thanks.


Why not? It would make it a better game. Soccer is a better game for it. Imagine if they stopped a soccer game every time the ball hit the cross bar and awarded one of the team's a minor score?

[GVGjr]

He is elite in the fact he can hit a 50mil wide post from 30 metres out consistently , but can someone tell him the idea is not to hit it but put the ball between them?

He has some elite traits but he can't be an elite midfielder when he is a so and so goal kicker from set shots.

[bornadog]

He has some elite traits but he can't be an elite midfielder when he is a so and so goal kicker from set shots.

In my opinion, The Bont is elite. Yes he missed two easy ones last night, but he has 6.6 for the season with many goal assists.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Db1vdrtVQAE4GQW.jpg

[Twodogs]

He has some elite traits but he can't be an elite midfielder when he is a so and so goal kicker from set shots.

You would think that one of the traits of truly elite players is nailing the money shot. Remember the hoo-hah about Chris Grant and Macavanie with his "Carey would have kicked it*" comment (I can't even remember who that game was against). The knock on Grant lasted right up until he kicked that goal to win the game against Essendon in 2000.











*yeah but Chris Grant won't run off with your missus.

[chef]

You would think that one of the traits of truly elite players is nailing the money shot. Remember the hoo-hah about Chris Grant and Macavanie with his "Carey would have kicked it*" comment (I can't even remember who that game was against). The knock on Grant lasted right up until he kicked that goal to win the game against Essendon in 2000.











*yeah but Chris Grant won't run off with your missus.

Against WCE in Perth.

[Twodogs]

Against WCE in Perth.


That game when we kicked 7 in the first and they kicked 7 in the second? It could have been the other way around.

[boydogs]

I always used to love Bont for the clutch goal but lately he has joined the long list of The Unreliables.

He does do better in clutch situations. More deliberate in his approach. Same with JJ

[chef]

That game when we kicked 7 in the first and they kicked 7 in the second? It could have been the other way around.

Thats the one. We kicked 8 to zip in the first and then they did it to us in the second. We lost by a couple of goals at the WACA

Geez i can remember some ridiculous crap when it comes to the dogs.

[westdog54]

Thats the one. We kicked 8 to zip in the first and then they did it to us in the second. We lost by a couple of goals at the WACA

Geez i can remember some ridiculous crap when it comes to the dogs.

Another weird stat from that game. One goal umpire signaled the first 19 goals of the game. Our 8 in the first, their 8 in the second, then their first 3 in three third after he'd swapped ends.

[The bulldog tragician]

Thats the one. We kicked 8 to zip in the first and then they did it to us in the second. We lost by a couple of goals at the WACA

Geez i can remember some ridiculous crap when it comes to the dogs.

We played absolutely sizzling footy in that first quarter. Red hot. Someone, maybe Brereton, said at 1/4 time that there was daylight between us and the rest of the competition at that point. But - just as easily - we fell apart defensively when it mattered which is probably the reason we never got a flag with Plough.

And yeah I remember lots of crap too Chef, yet there are whole seasons I can barely remember, which is I’m sure a good thing.

[Sedat]

We played absolutely sizzling footy in that first quarter. Red hot. Someone, maybe Brereton, said at 1/4 time that there was daylight between us and the rest of the competition at that point. But - just as easily - we fell apart defensively when it mattered which is probably the reason we never got a flag with Plough.

And yeah I remember lots of crap too Chef, yet there are whole seasons I can barely remember, which is I’m sure a good thing.
Remember that game all too well. During the 2nd qtr capitation, Sedat was outmarked in the goal square by that noted aerialist Chad Morrison.

[GVGjr]

He does do better in clutch situations. More deliberate in his approach. Same with JJ

For a team with a shocking percentage missing those shots probably meant the difference of a 21 point win and a possible 40 point plus win. Carlton got a sniff in the last quarter because we didn't take our chances to put them away

If he can do better when it counts then I fully expect him to do his best in every close game especially in perfect conditions

[Twodogs]

Thats the one. We kicked 8 to zip in the first and then they did it to us in the second. We lost by a couple of goals at the WACA

Geez i can remember some ridiculous crap when it comes to the dogs.


I picked that match to explain afl to my polish father in law. I spent the whole first quarter telling him this was not normal and normally we aren't this dominant then spent the whole second quarter telling him that this was not normal and normally we weren't this rubbish!

[Ozza]

Whenever Bont lines up, it crosses my mind “If it was the last quarter - he kicks it, any other time in the game, I’m nervous”.

[MrMahatma]

Whenever Bont lines up, it crosses my mind “If it was the last quarter - he kicks it, any other time in the game, I’m nervous”.

I feel this is more myth than fact. When has he nailed big last quarter goals apart from the prelim (Which wasn't a set shot)?

I recall he missed 2 crucial goals in the 2015 final v Crows which cost us dearly.

He's always been a suspect set shot IMO.

[westdog54]

I feel this is more myth than fact. When has he nailed big last quarter goals apart from the prelim (Which wasn't a set shot)?

I recall he missed 2 crucial goals in the 2015 final v Crows which cost us dearly.

He's always been a suspect set shot IMO.

Put us two kicks clear late against Adelaide in our premiership year. Was about as clutch as you'll get.


https://youtu.be/WR0iU8DWJR4

[Ozza]

I feel this is more myth than fact. When has he nailed big last quarter goals apart from the prelim (Which wasn't a set shot)?

I recall he missed 2 crucial goals in the 2015 final v Crows which cost us dearly.

He's always been a suspect set shot IMO.

Just off the top of my head, from outside 50 against Adelaide to win/seal a game. Against Port Adelaide at their home deck when we won by 3 points. Against Richmond is a close game 2016 he kicked a big last quarter goal. Against Collingwood late in 2016 when we won by 3 points. Think he might have kicked the sealer as a set shot against the lions in the unnecessarily close game last year, and against Essendon he broke them late in the game.

But you’re probably right - just a myth that he kicks the clutch goals.

[LostDoggy]

Just off the top of my head, from outside 50 against Adelaide to win/seal a game. Against Port Adelaide at their home deck when we won by 3 points. Against Richmond is a close game 2016 he kicked a big last quarter goal. Against Collingwood late in 2016 when we won by 3 points. Think he might have kicked the sealer as a set shot against the lions in the unnecessarily close game last year, and against Essendon he broke them late in the game.

But you’re probably right - just a myth that he kicks the clutch goals.

Although it was a snap shot, his ducking, weaving effort to kick the winner against Melbourne with a minute to go very early in his career was another pearler.

[Greystache]

Just off the top of my head, from outside 50 against Adelaide to win/seal a game. Against Port Adelaide at their home deck when we won by 3 points. Against Richmond is a close game 2016 he kicked a big last quarter goal. Against Collingwood late in 2016 when we won by 3 points. Think he might have kicked the sealer as a set shot against the lions in the unnecessarily close game last year, and against Essendon he broke them late in the game.

But you’re probably right - just a myth that he kicks the clutch goals.

He kicked 2 at the death against Melbourne in his first season to win the game, including what should've been goal of the year.

[SlimPickens]

Just listening to SEN apparently the league wide conversion rate 51.8% which is worst for 28 years. I’d imagine they are purely looking at goal to behind ratio and not also considering out of bounds or not making the distance. We are the worst of a bad bunch, staggering that one of the fundamentals of the game isn’t being coached nearly enough.

[boydogs]

Just listening to SEN apparently the league wide conversion rate 51.8% which is worst for 28 years. I’d imagine they are purely looking at goal to behind ratio and not also considering out of bounds or not making the distance. We are the worst of a bad bunch, staggering that one of the fundamentals of the game isn’t being coached nearly enough.

So many shots are being taken by mids and HBF's these days. The players that are forwards are also expected to be part time mids and run all day

[bornadog]

So many shots are being taken by mids and HBF's these days. The players that are forwards are also expected to be part time mids and run all day

Excellent point

[GVGjr]

So many shots are being taken by mids and HBF's these days. The players that are forwards are also expected to be part time mids and run all day

Thats why they practice their goal kicking at the end of training session to simulate fatigue however, it also wouldn't explain why we miss so many shots early in the game.
Fixing the goal kicking techniques and making it a priority is worth a try.

[Twodogs]

Thats why they practice their goal kicking at the end of training session to simulate fatigue however, it also wouldn't explain why we miss so many shots early in the game.
Fixing the goal kicking techniques and making it a priority is worth a try.


There is a Cosmic Psychos song called "Hooray *!*!*!*!" I've been banging my head against the wall talking about goalkicking technique for more than ten years (bad goalkicking has been a developing problem in AFL football in particular for at least that long) and now I think I know how the bloke who wrote the song felt!


BTW they can try and replicate the fatigue factor all they like but until they plant players on the mark and replicate other match conditions at training then they are just kidding themselves.

[The bulldog tragician]

Is it possible the distracting neon lights play any role in the poor goal kicking. In one of the kicks Bont missed, the display flashed just as he launched into the kick. Surely it must have some effect on peripheral vision. (I loathe them as a spectator too).

[ledge]

Do players having set shots actually Have someone up in the crowd to aim at or do players just look at both posts ?
As a coach of under 10s and under 12s cricket I used to paint a dot in the middle of the pitch for bowlers to try and hit , it was amazing how much it bought the wides down, under 10s cricket is usually won by the amount of wides bowled.
kids at that age just look at the whole pitch and it tended to miss a lot . Getting them to focus on the dot brought automatic improvement you wouldn't believe. Won a lot of games once that improved.

[GVGjr]

Is it possible the distracting neon lights play any role in the poor goal kicking. In one of the kicks Bont missed, the display flashed just as he launched into the kick. Surely it must have some effect on peripheral vision. (I loathe them as a spectator too).

Players have the sun to deal with as well so I'm not sure. Sounds logical though and it might be worth a good practice session or two to gauge why players are missing easy shots. I see at training sessions there is time devoted to the fun goals on angles etc.

Twodogs touched on an interesting point before and that is having someone standing on the mark with our goal kicking training which is something that we are not good at.

There has to be some reasons behind players like Suckling are regarded as great kicks but not as good from a set shot position with someone on the mark.

[Twodogs]

Players have the sun to deal with as well so I'm not sure. Sounds logical though and it might be worth a good practice session or two to gauge why players are missing easy shots. I see at training sessions there is time devoted to the fun goals on angles etc.

Twodogs touched on an interesting point before and that is having someone standing on the mark with our goal kicking training which is something that we are not good at.

There has to be some reasons behind players like Suckling are regarded as great kicks but not as good from a set shot position with someone on the mark.

Technique. When you are shooting for goal your head needs to be over the ball and you need to keep it down as you kick, the second one goal Bont missed was because he forgot his technique and lifted his head as the ball hit his boot. When you kick right foot and lean back then the ball is going to go left as it reaches the end of its arc.

I don't know why players do it, as the old saying goes 'you don't stare at the mantelpiece while you stoke the fire' I'm sure players have been told a thousand times how to kick a ball correctly.


Suckling is a problematic example. He kicks the ball like a goalkeeper so we cant really hold him up as an example of how to kick the ball. (i've got some views about how to improve goalkeepers kicking out too. I think that they could have a shot at the goals at the other end occasionally just to keep the other teams on their toes)

[MrMahatma]

Just off the top of my head, from outside 50 against Adelaide to win/seal a game. Against Port Adelaide at their home deck when we won by 3 points. Against Richmond is a close game 2016 he kicked a big last quarter goal. Against Collingwood late in 2016 when we won by 3 points. Think he might have kicked the sealer as a set shot against the lions in the unnecessarily close game last year, and against Essendon he broke them late in the game.

But you’re probably right - just a myth that he kicks the clutch goals.

Good memory.

The Tigers and Pies goals were from pretty much point blank. Fair enough with the others, albeit in the Lions game he kicked 2:4 and a couple OOB

He's clearly the best player we have, but I wouldn't be putting my house on him kicking a goal from a set shot not matter the time in the match.

[BulldogBelle]

You would think that one of the traits of truly elite players is nailing the money shot. Remember the hoo-hah about Chris Grant and Macavanie with his "Carey would have kicked it*" comment (I can't even remember who that game was against). The knock on Grant lasted right up until he kicked that goal to win the game against Essendon in 2000.
*yeah but Chris Grant won't run off with your missus.

Hated McAvaney ever since he put sh1t on Chris Grant that day. McAvaney must be 900 years old, why haven't they retired him. How long do I have to put up with him!

[BulldogBelle]

Well there are a few people here who reckon they know what's wrong with our goal-kicking and how to fix it.

For the first time in many-a-year I watched from behind the goals last Saturday.

Lo and behold I immediately spotted a goal-kicking flaw. Couldn't believe my eyes to see AFL players making such a fundamental error.

When the players run in to kick the ball for goal they hold the ball out in front of them. That's OK. But as they run they wobble from side to side, the ball, in their hands travels from one side of their body to the other.

Then they drop the ball to their foot, hopefully the ball is above their foot when they do so and goes straight down or at least the ball is not travelling sideways due to momentum.

Many times the players wobbled the ball from side to side and dropped the ball to their foot during the wobble. Well, where is the ball going to land, somewhere near their foot maybe? Hopefully.

MacRae has a better technique. He will run in and wobble the ball from side to side like the others but on his last two steps he will straighten up, no ball wobble, drop and kick.

I have also seen players not run straight at the goal. If everything else is correct then that's going to miss too.

I think that we should send these messages to Bev.

[Bulldog4life]

AFL goalkicking continues to be under scrutiny as league accuracy falls to its worst since 1990

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-goalkicking-continues-to-be-under-scrutiny-as-league-accuracy-falls-to-its-worst-since-1990/news-story/b01d958a5952a86e714e7ef0a41f75d5

THEY’RE the numbers that confirm what we’re all seeing on the field.
Goalkicking is as wayward in the AFL as it has been in decades.

As of the end of Round 6, the AFL’s 18 clubs have combined to kick 1317 goals and 1232 behinds.

With none of these numbers including shots at goal that missed entirely, that gives the competition overall goalkicking accuracy of 51.67 per cent.

It would also be the first time since 1990 that the league has been below 52 per cent accuracy.

That comes a week after Melbourne great Garry Lyon called the kicking skills of AFL players “putrid” and as bad as he has ever seen it.

“(Kicking) for goal, kicking inside 50 and some of the general field kicking, at some stage you’ve just got to say enough is enough,” he said on SEN Breakfast.

“These are professional full-time footballers who have more access to resources and time than ever before and it is putrid.”

The numbers mark a definite trend change. Accuracy soared in the late 1990s, reaching a peak in 2000 at 55.17 per cent (goals versus behinds).

From the middle of the 00s until last year, things seemed to steady, with accuracy between 52.43 per cent and 53.94 per cent in every season from 2006 to 2017.

While it is possible things will change over the rest of the season, it’s a definite sign for concern.

All numbers sourced from AFL Tables.

[bornadog]

From the middle of the 00s until last year, things seemed to steady, with accuracy between 52.43 per cent and 53.94 per cent in every season from 2006 to 2017.

I would like to see the numbers broken down to set shots versus other, that would be interesting.

[Twodogs]

I'm really suspicious about that 52 % figure. I'd like to know the medhadology they used to arrive at it because I think it's too high. I don't think players convert at over 50% at all.

[bornadog]

I'm really suspicious about that 52 % figure. I'd like to know the methodology they used to arrive at it because I think it's too high. I don't think players convert at over 50% at all.

This year to date there has been 1317 goals and 1232 points kicked, so total scoring shots 2549. Therefore 1317 is 52% of the total

[LostDoggy]

The percentages don't take into account complete misses, including out on the full or players within range who fail to kick the ball over defenders heads.

[Greystache]

Over the past 2 seasons Bont is now the third worst shot for goal in the league, converting at 36.1% when you factor in shots that miss entirely. Jack Billings is the worst, and Ironically the next 3 worst are either current of former Bulldogs players (Bont, Stringer, Higgins).

[Twodogs]

This year to date there has been 1317 goals and 1232 points kicked, so total scoring shots 2549. Therefore 1317 is 52% of the total

Are you 100% sure that is the formula they use? There are so many factors they aren't taking into account if that is the case.


The percentages don't take into account complete misses, including out on the full or players within range who fail to kick the ball over defenders heads.


Exactly, and a new one that's becoming increasingly popular in AFL football recently "the dribble that breaks the other way and turns away from the goal."

[bornadog]

Are you 100% sure that is the formula they use? There are so many factors they aren't taking into account if that is the case.

I am guessing.

Yes there are other factors, like PP said.

[Bulldog4life]

Mark Stevens
‏@Stevo7AFL
Following Stevo7AFL
I still think old mate @mattricho0 is right. Goalkicking slipped when posts went higher. Optical illusion, higher posts make gap look more narrow. Go to an old fashioned ground in the burbs with tiny posts and take a shot .. a breeze!

[Twodogs]

Mark Stevens
‏@Stevo7AFL
Following Stevo7AFL
I still think old mate @mattricho0 is right. Goalkicking slipped when posts went higher. Optical illusion, higher posts make gap look more narrow. Go to an old fashioned ground in the burbs with tiny posts and take a shot .. a breeze!


Hmm. Thats a really interesting point.

[jeemak]

I liked kicking at higher posts.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Over the past 2 seasons Bont is now the third worst shot for goal in the league, converting at 36.1% when you factor in shots that miss entirely. Jack Billings is the worst, and Ironically the next 3 worst are either current of former Bulldogs players (Bont, Stringer, Higgins).

This is quite alarming. If nothing else, surely this is just another nail that warrants spending a (relatively) small amount on a specialist goalkicking coach.

[bornadog]

If I were Gil for a day....@Adamcooney17 (https://twitter.com/Adamcooney17) would only allow sports scientists to control recovery. Force them to stay indoors and let coaches train players for longer so they can kick and handball and kick goals instead of points

[Twodogs]

If I were Gil for a day....@Adamcooney17 (https://twitter.com/Adamcooney17) would only allow sports scientists to control recovery. Force them to stay indoors and let coaches train players for longer so they can kick and handball and kick goals instead of points

Good old Coon Dog. He's only 5 years behind with his opinion.

Still you gotta love him.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Bob Murphy on SEN yesterday addressed this issue. I was distracted, driving at the time.
"Be the ball" etc. Bob said he saw a psych about it who asked him to describe a day at the beach. Bob described the feeling of the sand, the wind, the sun so the psych said he was kinesthetic, and as such needed to construct a dialogue with himself about what he physically does to kick the ball well....
Bob also cited the strategy of not using negatives, like you do with a child so instead of "don't touch the fire" (the child will touch the fire), just say "ouch" or "the fire hurts" (child will not touch fire). So rather than "don't miss this", "I can get this"...
Anyone else listen to it?

[Twodogs]

Bob Murphy on SEN yesterday addressed this issue. I was distracted, driving at the time.
"Be the ball" etc. Bob said he saw a psych about it who asked him to describe a day at the beach. Bob described the feeling of the sand, the wind, the sun so the psych said he was kinesthetic, and as such needed to construct a dialogue with himself about what he physically does to kick the ball well....
Bob also cited the strategy of not using negatives, like you do with a child so instead of "don't touch the fire" (the child will touch the fire), just say "ouch" or "the fire hurts" (child will not touch fire). So rather than "don't miss this", "I can get this"...
Anyone else listen to it?

I heard most of it. I liked his points about negatives. He's right that if you say to someone "don't miss" then they will more than likely just hear the bit about missing so if you just change the focus a but you ought to get better results.

That time Malcolm Blight barrelled the torp that sunk Carlton after the siren. Just as the siren has blown you can see Blight turn around and speak to Keith Greig. Years later I read in an interview that Blight said to Greig "I don't know what to do" and Grieg said "just go back and kick the *!*!*!*!ing thing". Nice message. Punchy, to the point and positive.

[Axe Man]

Don't panic everyone, Johnno has found the answer!

Calls to bring back place kick to cure AFL goalkicking woes (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/calls-to-bring-back-place-kick-to-cure-afl-goalkicking-woes/news-story/fbf9f839551d556648fea52b9ff132cc)

BULLDOGS great Brad Johnson reckons he’d have kicked an extra 250 goals had there been place kicks when he played.

It hasn’t been tried in a game since 1955, but Johnson thinks it’s time we gave the place kick another go.

Fox Footy panellist Johnson is leading calls for the return of the kick which he says would see set shot accuracy go through the roof and the return of the 100-goal player.

The call comes as just over half of all set shots are going through the middle, a stat that has steadily declined in recent years.

Johnson says he’d love to see today’s big forwards like the Giants Jon Patton and West Coast’s Josh Kennedy try the kick.

It could even be the answer to Joe Daniher’s goal kicking woes, Johnson says.

“It’s an excellent idea — kicking accuracy would go through the roof,” he says.

“The place kick would be super effective.

“The crowd would love it. It would create huge excitement — why not make it worth nine points.”

Johnson says goalkicking is the one area of the game that was not improving and with place kicks we could again see someone boot 100 goals in a season.

Johnson remembers a couple of times when he booted a goal off the ground from a long way out and says he would have got many more goals if he had taken place kicks.

“When you hit them well it feels magnificent,” he says.

The last man to use the place kick was Tony Ongarello in a game at Brunswick Oval in 1955.

Ongarello has told Fox Footy’s Open Mike the kick hadn’t been tried for years, he was kicking badly that day and felt he had nothing to lose.

One of his kicks was so long it went flying outside the ground.

[Twodogs]

Great idea but tge VFL outlawed place kicks after Mike Fitzpatrick tried to waste time with one back in the 1970s.

[GVGjr]

I can't believe the crap that I am reading from previous captains of the club:
Is Murphy saying we don't want to instill negative thoughts into players kicking for goals? Please tell me Bob what the opposition players who are standing on the mark are saying to our players? Surely we need to simulate match conditions to overcome the problem.

*!*!*!*!ing place kicks are being suggested by Brad Johnson to improve accuracy for the competition, surely someone is taking the piss. Perhaps we need to start using the old stab pass to help players who have difficulties marking the high ball?

If what I'm reading is even remotely serious, the conclusion I draw is many players are fragile souls who can't handle the consequences of owning their own destiny and mastering a simple skill and there is a consensus that the game is highly complex and the players can't cope with the demands.

So why are they getting so highly paid if it's all too much for them?

Hard work, focus and some application will fix the issue, oh I forgot no one likes the hard work any more.

[Axe Man]

I can't believe the crap that I am reading from previous captains of the club:
Is Murphy saying we don't want to instill negative thoughts into players kicking for goals? Please tell me Bob what the opposition players who are standing on the mark are saying to our players? Surely we need to simulate match conditions to overcome the problem.

*!*!*!*!ing place kicks are being suggested by Brad Johnson to improve accuracy for the competition, surely someone is taking the piss. Perhaps we need to start using the old stab pass to help players who have difficulties marking the high ball?

If what I'm reading is even remotely serious, the conclusion I draw is many players are fragile souls who can't handle the consequences of owning their own destiny and mastering a simple skill and there is a consensus that the game is highly complex and the players can't cope with the demands.

So why are they getting so highly paid if it's all too much for them?

Hard work, focus and some application will fix the issue, oh I forgot no one likes the hard work any more.

I am assuming the place kick thing was a joke but you don't believe a large part of goal kicking is between the ears?

[GVGjr]

I am assuming the place kick thing was a joke but you don't believe a large part of goal kicking is between the ears?

If you have the technique down pat and you are confident in your abilities because you train the right way then that is what should be between their ears.
Players on the mark are always telling other players how useless they are and offering advice where they should kick it to distract them

[Hotdog60]

Golfers will work for hours on end to perfect the swing or putt even straight after the round. What's so different with football.
If I was a pro footballer with these issues I would seek out help and put the time in.
Maybe it's a generational thing.....

[hujsh]

I can't believe the crap that I am reading from previous captains of the club:
Is Murphy saying we don't want to instill negative thoughts into players kicking for goals? Please tell me Bob what the opposition players who are standing on the mark are saying to our players? Surely we need to simulate match conditions to overcome the problem.

Pretty sure Murph was talking about the mindsets players should have when approaching their shots for goal, not that you can't ever say anything negative to them

[bornadog]

GVGjr, you need to listen to the podcast ( freedom in a cage) and what Murphy was talking about in relation to his own goal kicking and how he overcame the issues he had.

[Twodogs]

I can't believe the crap that I am reading from previous captains of the club:
Is Murphy saying we don't want to instill negative thoughts into players kicking for goals? Please tell me Bob what the opposition players who are standing on the mark are saying to our players? Surely we need to simulate match conditions to overcome the problem.

*!*!*!*!ing place kicks are being suggested by Brad Johnson to improve accuracy for the competition, surely someone is taking the piss. Perhaps we need to start using the old stab pass to help players who have difficulties marking the high ball?

If what I'm reading is even remotely serious, the conclusion I draw is many players are fragile souls who can't handle the consequences of owning their own destiny and mastering a simple skill and there is a consensus that the game is highly complex and the players can't cope with the demands.

So why are they getting so highly paid if it's all too much for them?

Hard work, focus and some application will fix the issue, oh I forgot no one likes the hard work any more.


Murph's point wasnt really about negative thoughts, it was more one part of the process he went through when lining up for goal. He talked about not turning your back on what's happening up the field and making sure you know where the mark is so the man standing it can't play any silly buggers like encroaching or stepping back.

The thing about missing was some advice he got from an older player (I think from another club but I can't remember who) who mentioned the thing about "first thing is don't say "don't miss this" because all they will hear you say is "miss this" and it's counter productive. If you say something like "go back and kick it" it's better than mentioning to them that you think they will miss it. It wasn't exactly Kum ba ya stuff.

[The Adelaide Connection]

If you have the technique down pat and you are confident in your abilities because you train the right way then that is what should be between their ears.
Players on the mark are always telling other players how useless they are and offering advice where they should kick it to distract them

Visualisation and positive self-talk are not only not new concepts, but they have absolutely been proven to be critical for individuals performing at their best. I remember seeing a documentary that talked to a range of athletes at the highest level and there was everything from netballers who visualised the ball going in before they shot it, to a swimmer who was swimming the English Channel who visualised the jellyfish that were stinging her as adoring fans as a mental way to block out the pain and help drive her.

I also remember seeing a marathon (I believe it was the Olympics) where a spectator ran out and hugged the bloke who was leading (by quite some way) late in the race. It disrupted his mental process (whereby they go into almost a meditation like state in order to block out their screaming bodies) and sort of brought him back to reality. After the disruption (which was only a matter of seconds before the bloke was brushed aside) he wasn’t able to get back to his mental space and almost ground to a halt. It was like he suddenly realised how much agony and fatigue he had and couldn’t block it out and push through it, whereas before the interruption he was powering along effortlessly.

Maybe, aside maybe some extra kicking practice, the key is to have a close look at our sports psychologists and our work in that space. It seems we have an epidemic and the anxiety faced by our players when kicking at goal is obvious.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Visualisation helps to get you 'in the zone'. If you haven't been in the zone yourself, you may be cynical but when you're in it, you are at your best and aren't distracted.
When Jack Nichlaus made a crucial putt and was later asked how he overcame the distraction of a helicopter landing nearby, he said "What helicopter?"

[Twodogs]

Visualisation helps to get you 'in the zone'. If you haven't been in the zone yourself, you may be cynical but when you're in it, you are at your best and aren't distracted.
When Jack Nichlaus made a crucial putt and was later asked how he overcame the distraction of a helicopter landing nearby, he said "What helicopter?"

That's what the deep breath at the top of the mark is for. It relaxes you and starts the process of (hopefully) getting you into the zone.

[Ozza]

We will need to take our chances to be any chance of winning tomorrow night.
Here’s how our main goal kickers are going this year (just goals/behinds - out on the full or not scoring not included).

Gowers: 12.8
Bontempelli: 10.7
Lipinski: 8.0
Dunkley: 7.8
Dale: 6.10
McLean: 6.8
Wallis: 5.2
Macrae: 5.4
Boyd: 4.3

Other notables;
Suckling 2.8
Hunter 3.6
Daniel 3.4
JJ - 2.4

[The Adelaide Connection]

We will need to take our chances to be any chance of winning tomorrow night.
Here’s how our main goal kickers are going this year (just goals/behinds - out on the full or not scoring not included).

Gowers: 12.8
Bontempelli: 10.7
Lipinski: 8.0
Dunkley: 7.8
Dale: 6.10
McLean: 6.8
Wallis: 5.2
Macrae: 5.4
Boyd: 4.3

Other notables;
Suckling 2.8
Hunter 3.6
Daniel 3.4
JJ - 2.4

Game plan:
1, Anyone about to take a set shot fakes injury.
2, Make sure Lipinski is the closest player.
3, Lipinski scores goal.
4, Bulldogs win.

[bornadog]

I haven't checked, but how accurate are Adelaide?

[The Adelaide Connection]

I haven't checked, but how accurate are Adelaide?

Very. Second in the league behind Hawthorn.

They seem to have super accurate patches that put games out of reach too. The exact thing we lack (that sees us lose touch or keeps our opponents in games).

[Twodogs]

Very. Second in the league behind Hawthorn.

They seem to have super accurate patches that put games out of reach too. The exact thing we lack (that sees us lose touch or keeps our opponents in games).

Oh terrific. We aren't vulnerable to letting other teams do that either.

[Greystache]

It's hard to believe some of these guys are professionals. You could give someone who'd never seen the sport before an instruction manual of how to kick a goal and they'd be just as likely to kick a goal from 20m out than half our list.

It's a good thing it's not important.

[Twodogs]

It's hard to believe some of these guys are professionals. You could give someone who'd never seen the sport before an instruction manual of how to kick a goal and they'd be just as likely to kick a goal from 20m out than half our list.

It's a good thing it's not important.

Not to us, obviously. 7.1 would be a handy score.

[bulldogtragic]

2 goals = 12 points
14 points = 14 points

More points from behinds than goals. FFS. Leaving aside 2 less scoring shots for a 37 point loss.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

2 goals = 12 points
14 points = 14 points

More points from behinds than goals. FFS. Leaving aside 2 less scoring shots for a 37 point loss.

Doesn’t matter though.

In Bevo we trust.

[Remi Moses]

Yes, let’s sack Bevo :rolleyes: I get it we’re frustrated, but let’s not get all Facebook or big footy

[bulldogtragic]

Doesn’t matter though.

In Bevo we trust.

To be overly simplistic:

- the coaching & training is sufficient, or
- a lot of players are passed redeeming and simply cannot do this basic/essential game winning skill, so we need to move many on

There's now too much data and history to write the occasional bad conversion off as an oddity. And it keeps happening.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yes, let’s sack Bevo :rolleyes: I get it we’re frustrated, but let’s not get all Facebook or big footy

Don’t recall anyone mentioning that?

I do recall Bevo talking about fixing our skill issues when he first came but right now we are still worse than any other side at butchering the ball.

[bulldogtragic]

Don’t recall anyone mentioning that?

I do recall Bevo talking about fixing our skill issues when he first came but right now we are still worse than any other side at butchering the ball.

True. Something like if you can't kick off both feet you won't play.

That got thrown out pretty quick.

[Remi Moses]

Don’t recall anyone mentioning that?

I do recall Bevo talking about fixing our skill issues when he first came but right now we are still worse than any other side at butchering the ball.

Stkilda , Brisbane , Carlton , are worse . Not saying it isn’t a serious issue, but it isn’t the worst in the comp .
Gotta get a hell of a lot better than we’re dishing up .

[Remi Moses]

True. Something like if you can't kick off both feet you won't play.

That got thrown out pretty quick.

Most afl players aren’t proficient on both sides in this era .

[bulldogtragic]

Most afl players aren’t proficient on both sides in this era .

I didn't say that if they can't kick off both feet they won't get played, Bevo did. Don't hold those comments against me.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

To be overly simplistic:

- the coaching & training is sufficient, or
- a lot of players are passed redeeming and simply cannot do this basic/essential game winning skill, so we need to move many on

There's now too much data and history to write the occasional bad conversion off as an oddity. And it keeps happening.

I agree to a point. And I am a massive Bevo supporter.
However the whole football department has to own this predicament we're in.
We've continued to invest in players that have significant skill flaws, but we insist upon persisting with a strategy contingent upon precise skill execution, coupled with aggressive posturing in defense.

So when we miss shots on goal that we should get more often than not or turnover the ball in situations where we should reasonably expect not to.. our aggressively postured defense gets caught out..

Do we can lament the player performance or we can ask we why we continue to draft and trade for players with clear deficiencies in the areas our strategy requires elite attributes in?

[bulldogtragic]

I agree to a point. And I am a massive Bevo supporter.
However the whole football department has to own this predicament we're in.
We've continued to invest in players that have significant skill flaws, but seem to insist upon persisting with a strategy contingent upon precise skill execurion coupled with aaggressive posturing in defense.

So when we miss shots on goal that we should get more often than not or turnover the ball in situations where we should reasonably expect not to.. our aggressively postured defense gets caught out..

Do we can lament the player performance or we can ask we why we continue to draft and trade for players with clear deficiencies in the areas our strategy requires elite attributes in?

This I think is one of the best conversations/threads we could have. It's the million dollar question, with I'm guessing interesting views all round.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Fogarty is a clear case in point.
We've missed a trick in not posturing our trade period around acquiring him in the wake of Stringer's known exit.
This is not a shot at Richards either. He's going to be very good.
But i contend we were so worried about the football world's perspective on trying to win the PR campaign over Stringer's departure that it negatively impacted our trade period and in turn hobbled our draft options.

I am not bullish on Shache's prospects ..yet from early in the trade period I had the feeling he was our plan B if we were unable to secure an outright top 10 pick for Stringer.

I think we felt that when that premium draft pick wasn't going to materialise for Jake,we blinked and decided to try and deal at the last minute to secure Shache and 'sell the hype' of 'Hey we lost Stringer, but we got the guy who went pick two a couple of years ago woo hoo!'

I think whilst less sexy, we should've prioritised parlaying Stringer's departure into ensuring we addressed list needs as the premium.

Taking Essendon's pick 11 and giving up our second round would've allowed us to take Naughton and Fogarty or Fogarty and Richards. Fogarty's selection seems a logical addressing of our skill issues.
As good as either Naughton or Richards will be I'd take a natural finisher like Fogarty. Because it's what we most lack and what our game plan screams out for.

[Sedat]

Fogarty is a clear case in point.
We've missed a trick in not posturing our trade period around acquiring him in the wake of Stringer's known exit.
This is not a shot at Richards either. He's going to be very good.
But i contend we were so worried about the football world's perspective on trying to win the PR campaign over Stringer's departure that it negatively impacted our trade period and in turn hobbled our draft options.

I am not bullish on Shache's prospects ..yet from early in the trade period I had the feeling he was our plan B if we were unable to secure an outright top 10 pick for Stringer.

I think we felt that when that premium draft pick wasn't going to materialise for Jake,we blinked and decided to try and deal at the last minute to secure Shache and 'sell the hype' of 'Hey we lost Stringer, but we got the guy who went pick two a couple of years ago woo hoo!'

I think whilst less sexy, we should've prioritised parlaying Stringer's departure into ensuring we addressed list needs as the premium.

Taking Essendon's pick 11 and giving up our second round would've allowed us to take Naughton and Fogarty or Fogarty and Richards. Fogarty's selection seems a logical addressing of our skill issues.
As good as either Naughton or Richards will be I'd take a natural finisher like Fogarty. Because it's what we most lack and what our game plan screams out for.
Pick 11 was never on the table for Stringer according to Dodo

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Pick 11 was never on the table for Stringer according to Dodo

It was for a swap of a 2nd round pick wasnt it. I thought that was announced early in the trade period, prior to the Injector's uding it on Devon Smith.
I will also own up to being dismissive of that outcome too.
But in hindsight as an outsider i reckon my discontent would've been mollified pretty quickly, if it had led tp us getting Fogarty, based on what has unfolded thus far.
I know 20/20 i hindsight

[The Adelaide Connection]

Just a quirk I noticed- almost everyone seemed to be drilling goals from everywhere in the warmup. Sure this was before the weather really set in again but there seemed to be only a handful of misses and most players didn’t miss more than one.
Most players.
There was one player that I did notice that seemed to be disproportionately inaccurate. Who? The bloke we played at FF most of the night (JJ).

[Ghost Dog]

Think I will skip footy this week erm....

[Rocket Science]

"We're down the ladder but we're fourth or fifth for the amount of inside 50s that we generate," Beveridge said.

The longer we continue to hang our hats on this, the more frequently I'll be reaching for Plough's spew bucket from this point on.

Fine if it's purely for public consumption but if this isn't one of the fiercest internal issues we're trying like Christ to remedy we're out to lunch.

[Sedat]

It was for a swap of a 2nd round pick wasnt it. I thought that was announced early in the trade period, prior to the Injector's uding it on Devon Smith.
I will also own up to being dismissive of that outcome too.
But in hindsight as an outsider i reckon my discontent would've been mollified pretty quickly, if it had led tp us getting Fogarty, based on what has unfolded thus far.
I know 20/20 i hindsight
I think you are right. Irrespective, I'm not sure Fogarty over Richards would be a better long term outcome - Richards is a great ball user and decision maker in a team crying out for that.

[GVGjr]

Goal kicking has been an issue at the club for a few years now. Last week we had Wallis miss a set shot from 35mtrs out on a slight angle for a right foot kick. The next quarter Charlie Cameron from an almost identical spot decides to kick it with his opposite foot and nails it. That bold play was done by a player who knows his ability and knows what works best for him.

I still maintain hard work and probably an improved technique will overcome the challenge or at least improve things. If I was a player, let alone one on the fringe of selection and perhaps a candidate to be delisted, I'd be practicing in my own time and seeking out assistance if necessary. There is no way I'd allow my career to be put in jeopardy because I hadn't overcome the equivalent of the goal kicking yips. Given the short shelf life of so many players they need to manage own their own careers.

[Remi Moses]

I didn't say that if they can't kick off both feet they won't get played, Bevo did. Don't hold those comments against me.
Probably a silly thing to say from bevo .You’d have three players playing per team if you only picked guys proficient on both sides .

[bornadog]

Goal kicking has been an issue at the club for a few years now. Last week we had Wallis miss a set shot from 35mtrs out on a slight angle for a right foot kick. The next quarter Charlie Cameron from an almost identical spot decides to kick it with his opposite foot and nails it. That bold play was done by a player who knows his ability and knows what works best for him.

I still maintain hard work and probably an improved technique will overcome the challenge or at least improve things. If I was a player, let alone one on the fringe of selection and perhaps a candidate to be delisted, I'd be practicing in my own time and seeking out assistance if necessary. There is no way I'd allow my career to be put in jeopardy because I hadn't overcome the equivalent of the goal kicking yips. Given the short shelf life of so many players they need to manage own their own careers.

The trouble is the sports science people control everything these players do. The whole training, practising skills, gym work etc needs to be looked at and goal kicking practise needs to be part of it.

[LostDoggy]

The trouble is the sports science people control everything these players do. The whole training, practising skills, gym work etc needs to be looked at and goal kicking practise needs to be part of it.

I know it's a real thing, but the concept of a sports science guy recommending a footballer not kick the ball too much does my head in. Managing workloads, running levels, contact and collisions at training etc is understandble, but static kicking?

Maybe I'm being naive, but imagine a sports scientist contacting Bevo after Macrae racks up his 40th disposal before 3QT and counselling that he needs to ease up on his disposal rate....

[GVGjr]

The trouble is the sports science people control everything these players do. The whole training, practising skills, gym work etc needs to be looked at and goal kicking practise needs to be part of it.

If the club isn't doing enough to fix my goal kicking conversion issue and it's got the potential to cost me my career in a high paying industry and something that I love doing then I'd do what ever it takes to make the adjustment. Ben Brown takes a heap of shots at goal and has improved his accuracy so I'd follow that lead.

I think the sports science excuse is a crock. An extra 20 minutes twice per week could make all the difference especially in the off season.

[Twodogs]

If the club isn't doing enough to fix my goal kicking conversion issue and it's got the potential to cost me my career in a high paying industry and something that I love doing then I'd do what ever it takes to make the adjustment. Ben Brown takes a heap of shots at goal and has improved his accuracy so I'd follow that lead.

I think the sports science excuse is a crock. An extra 20 minutes twice per week could make all the difference especially in the off season.

Absolutely. If you are hiring people who are advising your footballers not to play football then you are hiring the wrong people. Surely?

The solution is to grab a couple of footys and a teammate and go down to the park and have shots there. Like everyone else does.

[bornadog]

Absolutely. If you are hiring people who are advising your footballers not to play football then you are hiring the wrong people. Surely?

The solution is to grab a couple of footys and a teammate and go down to the park and have shots there. Like everyone else does.

Pretty sure it is the same at every club, except North who have changed things around.

I don't think it is right, but if you read MJP's post on what players do during the week, you get a better understand of it. ( need to find his post)

[Eastdog]

We need to devote a session solely on kicking the ball through the big sticks. This is such a vital part of the game. I'm aware though now that the sport science people don't recommend of it.

[bornadog]

We need to devote a session solely on kicking the ball through the big sticks. This is such a vital part of the game. I'm aware though now that the spirt science people don't recommend of it.

Nothing to do with not recommending it. It's the availability of time after completing their training runs, gym work, recovery sessions etc. It should be included as part of training, but most of the training is taken up on practising strategy and game plans.

[bulldogtragic]

Nothing to do with not recommending it. It's the availability of time after completing their training runs, gym work, recovery sessions etc. It should be included as part of training, but most of the training is taken up on practising strategy and game plans.

Insanity defined: Spending your time on a game plan strategy that the players don't have the skills to actually execute against decent teams.

[Eastdog]

Tactics are huge today compared to what it was. Back in the old days I believe there were lot good coaches who were great managers of players but not so much on the tactics. 20-25 years ago the goalkicking was a lot better today needs to get back to that. The question is what is the best way to do it.

[SonofScray]

It's a skill component mostly which GVG, BAD and Twodogs have provided the most simple and effective resolution. It is so frustrating that our footy dept appear to be stead fast, stubborn, in their approach.

There's a philosophical, psychological component at play here too. One thought I had is simply understanding the value of a goal. It is six points. But it is also potentially 5-10 extra entries the opposition need to square the ledger, which is extra kms running, jumping, tackling etc. We are spending all our tickets on getting the ball in their for no reward. Then the opposition jags one and we have to muster up that extra effort, again for no reward. Scoreboard pressure. We aren't applying it. In an era where pressure is central to analysis we've forgotten about scoreboard pressure.

Operant conditioning suggests that when you don't get reward for behaviours eventually there is a decay or extinction to those behaviours. I think we see that in game, against the Crows early we were defensively sound and winning enough footy. It all dropped off and we effectively got blown away because the good work didn't reinforce the good behaviours. Impact two fold : No scoreboard pressure, reduced effort. It's been the case now in R1,2 & Friday night which have been terrible performances.

[MrMahatma]

It's a skill component mostly which GVG, BAD and Twodogs have provided the most simple and effective resolution. It is so frustrating that our footy dept appear to be stead fast, stubborn, in their approach.

There's a philosophical, psychological component at play here too. One thought I had is simply understanding the value of a goal. It is six points. But it is also potentially 5-10 extra entries the opposition need to square the ledger, which is extra kms running, jumping, tackling etc. We are spending all our tickets on getting the ball in their for no reward. Then the opposition jags one and we have to muster up that extra effort, again for no reward. Scoreboard pressure. We aren't applying it. In an era where pressure is central to analysis we've forgotten about scoreboard pressure.

Operant conditioning suggests that when you don't get reward for behaviours eventually there is a decay or extinction to those behaviours. I think we see that in game, against the Crows early we were defensively sound and winning enough footy. It all dropped off and we effectively got blown away because the good work didn't reinforce the good behaviours. Impact two fold : No scoreboard pressure, reduced effort. It's been the case now in R1,2 & Friday night which have been terrible performances.

Im taking it that we don't do enough goal kicking practice because the fitness guys say it'll injure our players as they'll be over worked?

I'd give the fitness guys a KPI on team accuracy and on win/loss ratio. Their job is to help us win, not just to have fit players.

If the biggest opportunity for us to improve isn't our set shots, then I'd love to know what is?!

[The Adelaide Connection]

I have had some suspicions about our goal kicking and watching the players kick at goal in the warm up solidified them somewhat- I think our issues are actually more mental than physical.

In the warm up on Friday our players were nailing them from everywhere. I would hazard a guess that they went at at least 80% from varying distances, angles, etc.; as well as a combination of snaps, set shots, and on the run. Technically it all looked fluent and natural (and highly skilled). I almost had to rub my eyes to make sure I was watching the right team.

I really think the talk could be centred around the wrong aspect of goalkicking (the mechanics and needing more practice etc.) when it might be sports psychology that we need to turn to. Lindsay Thomas, Travis Cloke, and (more recently) Tim Membrey have shown us what can happen when good kicks of the ball lose confidence.

My sample is obviously very small though, it would be interesting to hear from someone that watches us warm up every week (and the shots at training).

[Twodogs]

I have had some suspicions about our goal kicking and watching the players kick at goal in the warm up solidified them somewhat- I think our issues are actually more mental than physical.

In the warm up on Friday our players were nailing them from everywhere. I would hazard a guess that they went at at least 80% from varying distances, angles, etc.; as well as a combination of snaps, set shots, and on the run. Technically it all looked fluent and natural (and highly skilled). I almost had to rub my eyes to make sure I was watching the right team.

I really think the talk could be centred around the wrong aspect of goalkicking (the mechanics and needing more practice etc.) when it might be sports psychology that we need to turn to. Lindsay Thomas, Travis Cloke, and (more recently) Tim Membrey have shown us what can happen when good kicks of the ball lose confidence.

My sample is obviously very small though, it would be interesting to hear from someone that watches us warm up every week (and the shots at training).


Was there anyone standing on the mark while they were practising having shots?

[Mofra]

Didn't Chris Grant fix his yips by completely abandoning the concept of goal kicking?
Started just looking at a point in the crowd and treated a shot for goal as a pass to that point in the crowd. Helped markedly.

[Twodogs]

Didn't Chris Grant fix his yips by completely abandoning the concept of goal kicking?
Started just looking at a point in the crowd and treated a shot for goal as a pass to that point in the crowd. Helped markedly.

That's a good way of overcoming the yips. Just overlook the fact you are shooting for goal and aim for something pat it.

[The bulldog tragician]

It's a skill component mostly which GVG, BAD and Twodogs have provided the most simple and effective resolution. It is so frustrating that our footy dept appear to be stead fast, stubborn, in their approach.

There's a philosophical, psychological component at play here too. One thought I had is simply understanding the value of a goal. It is six points. But it is also potentially 5-10 extra entries the opposition need to square the ledger, which is extra kms running, jumping, tackling etc. We are spending all our tickets on getting the ball in their for no reward. Then the opposition jags one and we have to muster up that extra effort, again for no reward. Scoreboard pressure. We aren't applying it. In an era where pressure is central to analysis we've forgotten about scoreboard pressure.

Operant conditioning suggests that when you don't get reward for behaviours eventually there is a decay or extinction to those behaviours. I think we see that in game, against the Crows early we were defensively sound and winning enough footy. It all dropped off and we effectively got blown away because the good work didn't reinforce the good behaviours. Impact two fold : No scoreboard pressure, reduced effort. It's been the case now in R1,2 & Friday night which have been terrible performances.

I think this is a really good point. A few commentators did observe that our game style was so taxing it explained the 2017 drop off. In the finals series I wonder what % of our goals were from multiple repeat acts of desperation - yes, Shane Biggs, you really put in one of the most awesome 30 seconds or so that I’ve ever seen in a Bulldogs player. There certainly weren’t a lot of the ‘kick to a leading forward, mark calmly taken, go back and nail a straightforward shot’ scenarios.

[GVGjr]

I think this is a really good point. A few commentators did observe that our game style was so taxing it explained the 2017 drop off. In the finals series I wonder what % of our goals were from multiple repeat acts of desperation - yes, Shane Biggs, you really put in one of the most awesome 30 seconds or so that I’ve ever seen in a Bulldogs player. There certainly weren’t a lot of the ‘kick to a leading forward, mark calmly taken, go back and nail a straightforward shot’ scenarios.

I've listened to the arguments that our poor conversion rate is due to fatigue but it doesn't explain why we miss goals early in quarters particularly in the first half.

I was also listening to something on the TV tonight on how frustrated midfielders and defenders might be to see all their good work undone by forwards missing their set shots. Goals can lift teams, to miss them miserably throughout games must knock a teams momentum.

[Twodogs]

I've listened to the arguments that our poor conversion rate is due to fatigue but it doesn't explain why we miss goals early in quarters particularly in the first half.

I was also listening to something on the TV tonight on how frustrated midfielders and defenders might be to see all their good work undone by forwards missing their set shots. Goals can lift teams, to miss them miserably throughout games must knock a teams momentum.

Constantly missing goals means we are lessening the chance to apply more pressure on the opposition, it's like a fielding dropping 7 out of every 10 catches tgat come to them and ebpventually the bowlers are going to give up. Given our game is based on applying pressure I can't see why the coaches keep trying to explain away our poor conversion rate.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I've listened to the arguments that our poor conversion rate is due to fatigue but it doesn't explain why we miss goals early in quarters particularly in the first half.

I was also listening to something on the TV tonight on how frustrated midfielders and defenders might be to see all their good work undone by forwards missing their set shots. Goals can lift teams, to miss them miserably throughout games must knock a teams momentum.
Ultimately it comes down to recruiting players with poor kicking techniques. The exception in recent years has been Dickson who has been our most reliable. Having Picken and Liberatore out of the team hasn’t helped as they also have good kicking techniques. Schache also looks good and will make a difference.

[Twodogs]

Ultimately it comes down to recruiting players with poor kicking techniques. The exception in recent years has been Dickson who has been our most reliable. Having Picken and Liberatore out of the team hasn’t helped as they also have good kicking techniques. Schache also looks good and will make a difference.

Correct. The whole reason you have a technique is to give you something to fall back on when you are fatigued. If the rest of your game is struggling because you are so physically exhausted then you should be able to depend on your body reverting to the way it always kicks a footy. Your tired, it's one less thing to think about/cope with as you are weighing up taking one of the most important kicks you are going to have for the game.

Some people (including our coaching staff.*) seem to think learning a technique is an unnecessary complication and players can just free range goals. In fact a technique should be the opposite.






*if we think our players are doing pretty well, getting and surviving on an AFL list without understanding how important kicking technique is how on earth have the coaches made it into coaching without understanding it?

[Mofra]

Ultimately it comes down to recruiting players with poor kicking techniques. The exception in recent years has been Dickson who has been our most reliable. Having Picken and Liberatore out of the team hasn’t helped as they also have good kicking techniques. Schache also looks good and will make a difference.
Lippi also seems to be able to convert when given opportunities. Averaging over a goal per game as a pup in a struggling side

[LostDoggy]

I wonder if we video a player kicking goal after goal at training and then compare that video to how they kick under fatigue and under match conditions. I reckon that'd be a good pointer in developing a reliable process.

[Twodogs]

I wonder if we video a player kicking goal after goal at training and then compare that video to how they kick under fatigue and under match conditions. I reckon that'd be a good pointer in developing a reliable process.


It's because none stands the mark at training, they tell you they are fatigued but they don't replicate match conditions in any other way. I've watched them practice their goalkicking for years and everytime I've seen the players practice they have been wasting their time buecause they aren't improving their goalkicking.

They continue to practice mistakes because none of the coaches watch or get involved.

[Greystache]

It's because none stands the mark at training, they tell you they are fatigued but they don't replicate match conditions in any other way. I've watched them practice their goalkicking for years and everytime I've seen the players practice they have been wasting their time buecause they aren't improving their goalkicking.

They continue to practice mistakes because none of the coaches watch or get involved.

Plus no one tracks or even pays attention to the conversion rate during goal kicking practice. A player could miss 10 in a row and no one but them would know. They also make no effort to gamify practice, there's never a group looking over their shoulder, no one on the mark as you say, and no consequences for missing (whether it be punitive like extra push ups/sprints, or social recognition for losing). Nothing about the limited practice they do replicates match conditions and it shows on game day.

[hujsh]

Good news is we kicked pretty straight.

[G-Mo77]

Good news is we kicked pretty straight.

The solution is not to have shots at goal. :)

[Greystache]

50%... wooo!

Without Dickson and Schache we may have kicked last week's score.

[Twodogs]

The kick that Dahl missed was because he was looking at the goal and not his ball drop so his ball drop went skew-wiff apart from that it wasn't bad. If he'd just kept his head over the ball it would have had a much better chance of going through.

[westbulldog]

On a lighter note, this excerpt from the club's website is as accurate as our goalkicking :-
"Inness overseas the day-to-day physical preparaton of the AFL playing group."

[Axe Man]

Science answers footy’s big question: How to kick goals? (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/science-answers-footys-big-question-how-to-kick-goals/news-story/bea147e965cf56771f6ea13b1d4dd794)

A GOAL doctor who has spent the past three and a half years studying kicking technique could help solve one of the AFL’s biggest woes.

Few things frustrate footy fans more than a highly paid player lining up for a match-winning kick only to spray it wide of the goals.

But a landmark study by Victoria University PhD candidate Stephanie Blair could finally cure the sprays, yips and clangers of AFL stars.

Ms Blair and a team of sports, exercise science and biomechanics experts have examined technical aspects of goalkicking accuracy from different distances and angles.

Using 3D technology, a full-body analysis of player goalkicking technique was tested to see what they were doing right and wrong, and how accuracy could be improved.

“We’re trying to determine how we can improve goalkicking performance,’’ she said.

“Through our research we’re firstly trying to understand goalkicking technique, what the requirements are of players and what it looks like.

“We’re trying to determine what players are doing that contributes to an accurate performance, but also then trying to determine what is going wrong with their performance.’’

The study will be hot property for AFL and AFLW clubs keen to kick a winning score, with several Victorian teams already putting key players through their paces.

It comes amid a horror year for AFL goalkicking, with 1965 points scored compared to 2136 majors booted before Round 11.

Ms Blair said angles, distance and player positioning were factors in goalkicking success, and the process was often “very individual’’.

But consistency in style and process seemed crucial. This included the process players went through, point of impact between foot and ball, increasing knee extension when kicking long and “conditioning the support leg’’.

“While a lot of things contribute to a bad performance such as pressure and stuff like that, at the end of the day it’s a technical issue that has caused that,’’ Ms Blair said.

“Because the last thing that contacts the ball is the foot, mechanics are important, and if you don’t contact the ball right you are not going to get correct ball flight.

“Really, their final posture and what it looks like will influence the success of the kick.’’

Richmond great Matthew Richardson and Essendon forward Joe Daniher are among those adored and scorned by fans for wonderful and wayward goalkicking.

Goalkicking greats John Coleman, Tony Lockett, Jason Dunstall and Matthew Lloyd were deadeye dicks in front of goal and all had their own routines to help them boot the ball sweetly.

And West Coast forward Josh Kennedy has made an awkward art form out of a staggering run up that looks ugly but delivers goals in *!spades.

[stefoid]

Just a quirk I noticed- almost everyone seemed to be drilling goals from everywhere in the warmup. Sure this was before the weather really set in again but there seemed to be only a handful of misses and most players didn’t miss more than one.
Most players.
There was one player that I did notice that seemed to be disproportionately inaccurate. Who? The bloke we played at FF most of the night (JJ).

missing goals is largely a mental thing. under pressure, the adrenaline starts to flow, the blood pounds, the mind goes fuzzy, and fine motor control evaporates. Thats why players will hit a running snap one minute and miss the entire goalface from an easy set shot the next. The first is instinct - no pressure. And the bizzare thing is, the easier the shot is, the greater the pressure - the greater expectation that they should *never* miss a shot like this.

thats why the coach is loathe to make a big deal about it. What could be worse for pressure than the coach publicly calling out the team for 'unacceptable goal kicking'. It would make the situation much, much worse.

Most of these blokes dont need a skills coach, they need a psychologist. And the first thing the entire team has to do, without singling any one player out, is acknowledge as a group that they collectively have the yips. Just acknowledging it within the group to each other will ease the pressure somewhat.

[Twodogs]

missing goals is largely a mental thing. under pressure, the adrenaline starts to flow, the blood pounds, the mind goes fuzzy, and fine motor control evaporates. Thats why players will hit a running snap one minute and miss the entire goalface from an easy set shot the next. The first is instinct - no pressure. And the bizzare thing is, the easier the shot is, the greater the pressure - the greater expectation that they should *never* miss a shot like this. .


That's simple to fix, take a deep breath at the top of your mark. It couldn't be any simpler. Anyone who thinks it's more complicated than that is talking shit for some reason. (they want a coaching job, they want to be right about it being really complicated, etc.)


thats why the coach is loathe to make a big deal about it. What could be worse for pressure than the coach publicly calling out the team for 'unacceptable goal kicking'. It would make the situation much, much worse.

The coach doesn't need to make a big deal, he just has to fix the problem. If he can't then he is in the wrong business


Most of these blokes dont need a skills coach, they need a psychologist. And the first thing the entire team has to do, without singling any one player out, is acknowledge as a group that they collectively have the yips. Just acknowledging it within the group to each other will ease the pressure somewhat

Agreed.

[The Adelaide Connection]

missing goals is largely a mental thing. under pressure, the adrenaline starts to flow, the blood pounds, the mind goes fuzzy, and fine motor control evaporates. Thats why players will hit a running snap one minute and miss the entire goalface from an easy set shot the next. The first is instinct - no pressure. And the bizzare thing is, the easier the shot is, the greater the pressure - the greater expectation that they should *never* miss a shot like this.

thats why the coach is loathe to make a big deal about it. What could be worse for pressure than the coach publicly calling out the team for 'unacceptable goal kicking'. It would make the situation much, much worse.

Most of these blokes dont need a skills coach, they need a psychologist. And the first thing the entire team has to do, without singling any one player out, is acknowledge as a group that they collectively have the yips. Just acknowledging it within the group to each other will ease the pressure somewhat.

Yep, I totally agree and said the exact same thing some posts ago. Everyone keeps saying we need to get a goal kicking coach in but I maintain it is (mostly) not a skill problem. We should be looking at our psychologists and working in the mindfulness etc. space.

[FrediKanoute]

Has te shot clock made a difference?

[bornadog]

Has te shot clock made a difference?

Seems to put pressure on the player. Players definitely look up at the clock and it probably plays in their mind.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

All this talk about players needing a psychologist etc are rubbish. Plenty of players have sought psychologists and it’s done nothing - unsurprisingly.

How many modern day players actually practice as much as Dunstall or Lockett or even Fevola? I’d answer none would be anywhere near them.

[Twodogs]

All this talk about players needing a psychologist etc are rubbish. Plenty of players have sought psychologists and it’s done nothing - unsurprisingly.

How many modern day players actually practice as much as Dunstall or Lockett or even Fevola? I’d answer none would be anywhere near them.

I just heard Brent Harvey on SEN say that (he didn't say if it was each week or each session) the onballers and forwards will typically have 150 shots at goal and Ben Brown will have 250 shots. Boomer said that the sports science guys used to try and stop Brown after 150 but he'd just wait until they went away and then he'd have another 100 shots to get his 250 shots in.

Practising your goalkicking is a radical idea but I really hope it catches on. Actually it shits me that it's North Melbourne, and particularly Brad Scott coaching North Melbourne, who figured out that a team with old fashioned (and I hate that term) foot skills that makes the most of its chances in the forward 50 would steal a march on a competition that's too busy trying to be too clever by half for its win good.

If North win the flag with their old fashioned new tactics (115 years after Collingwood figured it out the first time) I'm going to go postal. Or maybe the short term pain will be bearable if it means the other coaches follow the leader to a more skilled brand of football.

[westdog54]

I just heard Brent Harvey on SEN say that (he didn't say if it was each week or each session) the onballers and forwards will typically have 150 shots at goal and Ben Brown will have 250 shots. Boomer said that the sports science guys used to try and stop Brown after 150 but he'd just wait until they went away and then he'd have another 100 shots to get his 250 shots in.

Practising your goalkicking is a radical idea but I really hope it catches on. Actually it shits me that it's North Melbourne, and particularly Brad Scott coaching North Melbourne, who figured out that a team with old fashioned (and I hate that term) foot skills that makes the most of its chances in the forward 50 would steal a march on a competition that's too busy trying to be too clever by half for its win good.

If North win the flag with their old fashioned new tactics (115 years after Collingwood figured it out the first time) I'm going to go postal. Or maybe the short term pain will be bearable if it means the other coaches follow the leader to a more skilled brand of football.

The thought of Brad Scott being an 'innovator' by going back to the future gets me riled as well, but you can't argue its effectiveness.

Could you imagine a Sports Science boffin telling Daniel Cross to stop training when he was playing. They'd get a swift GAGF from the man. All he ever did was train, right down to his (extraordinarily supportive) partner hiding a football in a random kitchen cupboard every day.

[bornadog]

The thought of Brad Scott being an 'innovator' by going back to the future gets me riled as well, but you can't argue its effectiveness.

Could you imagine a Sports Science boffin telling Daniel Cross to stop training when he was playing. They'd get a swift GAGF from the man. All he ever did was train, right down to his (extraordinarily supportive) partner hiding a football in a random kitchen cupboard every day.

Just as you mention Crossy, did you see the other day Paul Roos says it was Cross who changed the culture at Melbourne in the playing group.

[Twodogs]

The thought of Brad Scott being an 'innovator' by going back to the future gets me riled as well, but you can't argue its effectiveness.

Could you imagine a Sports Science boffin telling Daniel Cross to stop training when he was playing. They'd get a swift GAGF from the man. All he ever did was train, right down to his (extraordinarily supportive) partner hiding a football in a random kitchen cupboard every day.

Rocket said he saw said supportive partner one day and gave her a happy greeting and in return he got a dirty look. "Have I done something wrong?" he asked. "We were supposed to go out for my birthday last week but Daniel tweaked a hamstring at training and his coach convinced him the only way it would come up for the weekend was if it was iced every hour, on the hour. So we spent my birthday icing Daniel's leg EVERY HOUR ON THE HOUR!!!!!"

[westdog54]

Just as you mention Crossy, did you see the other day Paul Roos says it was Cross who changed the culture at Melbourne in the playing group.
Yes I did. Getting a quality person and workhorse like Cross for two years was an outstanding decision.

Rocket said he saw said supportive partner one day and gave her a happy greeting and in return he got a dirty look. "Have I done something wrong?" he asked. "We were supposed to go out for my birthday last week but Daniel tweaked a hamstring at training and his coach convinced him the only way it would come up for the weekend was if it was iced every hour, on the hour. So we spent my birthday icing Daniel's leg EVERY HOUR ON THE HOUR!!!!!"

I remember that story as well.

I also remember a story about her sleeping on the couch for a month while Daniel was hooked up to a special icing machine every night to help recover from an injury.

Daniel is a very lucky man.

[The Adelaide Connection]

All this talk about players needing a psychologist etc are rubbish. Plenty of players have sought psychologists and it’s done nothing - unsurprisingly.

How many modern day players actually practice as much as Dunstall or Lockett or even Fevola? I’d answer none would be anywhere near them.

They don't necessarily need a psychologist, but the importance of the mental aspect of sport (and gaining control over it) is nothing to be sneezed at. This is neither a well kept secret nor a new concept.

I'd be interested to see you cite some case studies or some other actual evidence of these plenty of players who have received no benefit from psychologists. Maybe you could also use your level 100 access to confidential information to have a closer look to see if there are other players who have.

[Bulldog4life]

Yes I did. Getting a quality person and workhorse like Cross for two years was an outstanding decision.


I remember that story as well.

I also remember a story about her sleeping on the couch for a month while Daniel was hooked up to a special icing machine every night to help recover from an injury.

Daniel is a very lucky man.


And he is still at Melbourne. I hope our club is doing everything to bring him home.

[Twodogs]

The thought of Brad Scott being an 'innovator' by going back to the future gets me riled as well, but you can't argue its effectiveness.

Could you imagine a Sports Science boffin telling Daniel Cross to stop training when he was playing. They'd get a swift GAGF from the man. All he ever did was train, right down to his (extraordinarily supportive) partner hiding a football in a random kitchen cupboard every day.


What's the story about his partner hiding a footy in a cupboard? I missed that one.

[Bulldog4life]

What's the story about his partner hiding a footy in a cupboard? I missed that one.

Not sure about the full story but Crossy got her to do that so when he opened the cupboard the ball would fall out. He said this helped his reflexes.

[Twodogs]

Not sure about the full story but Crossy got her to do that so when he opened the cupboard the ball would fall out. He said this helped his reflexes.


That makes sense. Thanks B4L.

[westdog54]

What's the story about his partner hiding a footy in a cupboard? I missed that one.

I'm surprised you didn't know this one.

As B4L rightly said she'd slot a football into a different cupboard every day and he'd catch it as it bobbled out.

[bulldogtragic]

I think the players must be reading this. I apologise we've been vague. You don't fix your Horris goal kicking by not having any shots, you still have the shots but more accurate ones. Hope that clears things up.

[Twodogs]

I think the players must be reading this. I apologise we've been vague. You don't fix your Horris goal kicking by not having any shots, you still have the shots but more accurate ones. Hope that clears things up.


Who's Horris? Rumpole of the Bailey was called Horace, is it a Scottish or Gaelic variation on that?


Or are you invoking the name of the 1920s Carlton forward Horrie Clover?

[bulldogtragic]

Who's Horris? Rumpole of the Bailey was called Horace, is it a Scottish or Gaelic variation on that?


Or are you invoking the name of the 1920s Carlton forward Horrie Clover?

Bloody auto correct. Horrid. After 15th century murderer, Horrid the goal kicker.

[Eastdog]

I know I sound like a broken record on this but this was a major factor in why we lost the game yesterday. We did a lot right and our pressure on the Pies was very good. We didn’t concede over 100 points so it was a much better game from our defence yesterday. 10.13 for us 23 scoring shots to 13.4 to them 17 scoring shots. If we can turn some of those points into goals there is the game. It is such an important part of the game yet we seem to struggle with it. We are capable of scoring 15/16 goals in games but need more consistency with it.

[Mofra]

We simply have to open the chequebook and get Anthony Rocca into the club for the upcoming pre-season. If he can fix Casbault, he can fix anybody.

Quality guy off field to boot.

[Webby]

We’ve kicked 164 goals 178 behinds for the year. The worst ratio in the AFL.

It’s not just the stat that is alarming, it’s also where we’re missing them from. Easy set shots - as opposed to an abundance of rushed behinds etc.

We’ve had less shots than our opposition in only four of fourteen games. So I’d contend that 10 of our 14 games were very winnable if we were accurate.

Had we kicked as accurately as we did at Port (in torrential conditions...!) throughout the season and we’d be top four, making finals.

We need to play J Schache if only to get the ball into his hands. He’s kicked 11.3 for the year (6 games.) in a team that’s kicked 164.178....! It’s very refreshing (and rewarding to have someone (who’s not Dicko) capable of reliably slotting a set shot. It makes a huge difference in releasing pressure from everyone else.

From rounds 1-15 in order:
27 shots to 20. Kicked 11.16 & won
26 shots to 22. Kicked 10.16 & won
23 shots to 23. Kicked 9.14 & lost
19 shots to 23. Kicked 9.10 & lost
22 shots to 26. Kicked 7.15 & lost
24 shots to 23. Kicked 9.15 & lost
24 shots to 17. Kicked 15.9 & won
27 shots to 21. Kicked 13.14 & won
24 shots to 28. Kicked 13.11 & lost
25 shots to 25. Kicked 13.12 & lost
22 shots to 28. Kicked 10.12 & lost
28 shots to 25. Kicked 15.13 & won
23 shots to 17. Kicked 10.13 & lost
16 shots to 16. Kicked 10.6 and won!!!

[G-Mo77]

Just saturate Marvel before we run out next week. Of all the weeks to kick accurately it was in the wet.

[ledge]

Schache , Dickson and Lloyd are very accurate shots, we need to get it in their hands not blaze away Willy Nilly.

[GVGjr]

Straight kicking for goal played a big part in the win against Port who seemed to copy our often used formula of making easy shots look vastly harder than they should

Makes you wonder how in those conditions we put in a good performance but under a roof in pristine conditions we find a way to struggle.

[bornadog]

We’ve kicked 164 goals 178 behinds for the year. The worst ratio in the AFL.


Geelong have had 339 shots and are on top. Big difference when you nail those shots.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Schache has a beautiful and effective kicking action. His hips are square at impact but his left foot follow through is pronouncedly powerful and across his body which guarantees some left to right ball movement. He starts th ball just inside of left post and it moves reliably to the middle. Matt Lloyd just called it the best action he's ever seen.
On the call for a psych I have no doubt it would help with set shots. Same as golfers. Both are deliberate actions that need the brain to have thw right attitude free of fear. Top level golfers have psych's. One thing is to simply dismiss any negate thought that enters your brain whilst setting up and replace it with a positive. You can see the fear in players missing set shots.

[Twodogs]

Straight kicking for goal played a big part in the win against Port who seemed to copy our often used formula of making easy shots look vastly harder than they should

Makes you wonder how in those conditions we put in a good performance but under a roof in pristine conditions we find a way to struggle.

16 scoring shots each last night. It comes down to technique. If you are walking back to take a shot at goal and you are comfortable with your technique then it's one less thing you have to worry about. But if you are walking back thinking "*!*!*!*!, I am going to miss this" then you are more than likely going to miss it.

[GVGjr]

16 scoring shots each last night. It comes down to technique. If you are walking back to take a shot at goal and you are comfortable with your technique then it's one less thing you have to worry about. But if you are walking back thinking "*!*!*!*!, I am going to miss this" then you are more than likely going to miss it.

Flaws in technique typically get exposed in the more difficult conditions so it doesn't really explain why we miss so many at Marvel and looked steady last night.
I think it's a combination of concentration and technique and once we solve that we will be a force again

[Twodogs]

Flaws in technique typically get exposed in the more difficult conditions so it doesn't really explain why we miss so many at Marvel and looked steady last night.
I think it's a combination of concentration and technique and once we solve that we will be a force again

Technique involves concentration though. When you walk back to your mark you should be emptying your mind of anything that isn't important/relevant to the task. Take a deep breath, clear your brain and relax, then stick your head over the ball and kick through it. It's not rocket science, I genuinely believe that it's it's only as complicated as players want it to be.

[Danjul]

Schache , Dickson and Lloyd are very accurate shots, we need to get it in their hands not blaze away Willy Nilly.

we need to get them to teach the others. Should only take them a couple of days. Then Dunkley will simply be bad and not the worst set shot at goal that I have ever seen.

[azabob]

For what its worth Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data said we took our opportunities where as the power did not.

Using the stat Expected Scores final scores should've been

Power 75
Dogs 57

He also said during the week Dogs have lost two games by missing goals they should have kicked and if they had've converted we would be sitting equal 8th.

[Eastdog]

Just saturate Marvel before we run out next week. Of all the weeks to kick accurately it was in the wet.

Give me the hose :D

[ledge]

we need to get them to teach the others. Should only take them a couple of days. Then Dunkley will simply be bad and not the worst set shot at goal that I have ever seen.

Dunkley lobs it , so does Libba but we never see Libba with a set shot .
It’s like batting if you don’t have time to think about it you use your instinct option which is isually the right one.
Once your having a set shot you don’t use your natural instinct you have time to think and stuff it up .
The three players I mention are all set shot beauties and you can see it the way they go about it, always the same natural instinct.

[Webby]

Schache , Dickson and Lloyd are very accurate shots, we need to get it in their hands not blaze away Willy Nilly.

Not sure I agree on Lloyd - at least in our colours. He’s kicked 22.18 for the club. That’s pretty ordinary.
Schache’s kicked 28.14 and Dickson an amazing 171.58

In fact, Dicko has the most accurate/best conversion rate of any VFL/AFL player with 150+ goals in history. He’s a freak... and yet we’re the least accurate team in the league..!

Interestingly, Lloyd’s conversion rate at Richmond was 65%, but with us it’s only a bit above 50%.... maybe it’s our game plan or structure..? Maybe it’s a tipping point affect of tram insccuracy building pressure on everyone.

[ledge]

Not sure I agree on Lloyd - at least in our colours. He’s kicked 22.18 for the club. That’s pretty ordinary.
Schache’s kicked 28.14 and Dickson an amazing 171.58

In fact, Dicko has the most accurate/best conversion rate of any VFL/AFL player with 150+ goals in history. He’s a freak... and yet we’re the least accurate team in the league..!

Interestingly, Lloyd’s conversion rate at Richmond was 65%, but with us it’s only a bit above 50%.... maybe it’s our game plan or structure..? Maybe it’s a tipping point affect of tram insccuracy building pressure on everyone.

I’m talking set shots .. you can’t really use stats as in play as players could be under pressure or having them from angles, unless you look at where each shot is from.
Set shots are a choice by the player to have a shot and the confidence to kick it.
The three I mention on set shots are the ones who I would most have the confidence in, saying that ,Bont actually wouldn’t be so good as he tends to have a lot of set shots from 50 out as he doesn’t play a deep forward much . But I don’t think he would miss many in closer range.
Stats don’t tell the whole truth.

[bornadog]

I m sure I mentioned it earlier in this thread, I still think our set shot misses are all in the players heads. We have missed so many times that players are over thinking and worrying they will miss. We have to get over the psychological factors.

[ledge]

I m sure I mentioned it earlier in this thread, I still think our set shot misses are all in the players heads. We have missed so many times that players are over thinking and worrying they will miss. We have to get over the psychological factors.
It’s not just our club that has the problem it seems to be where the game is at at the moment.

[Webby]

I’m talking set shots .. you can’t really use stats as in play as players could be under pressure or having them from angles, unless you look at where each shot is from.
Set shots are a choice by the player to have a shot and the confidence to kick it.
The three I mention on set shots are the ones who I would most have the confidence in, saying that ,Bont actually wouldn’t be so good as he tends to have a lot of set shots from 50 out as he doesn’t play a deep forward much . But I don’t think he would miss many in closer range.
Stats don’t tell the whole truth.

I am talking set shots and just using stats as an indicator to support the core point. Lloyd came with a reputation for being a good set shot, but has underwhelmed from that viewpoint. When he lines up a set shot, I’m not trusting him anywhere near to the level I trust Dickson, Schache and even Naughton and Wallis. I’d like to see improvement.

[hujsh]

I am talking set shots and just using stats as an indicator to support the core point. Lloyd came with a reputation for being a good set shot, but has underwhelmed from that viewpoint. When he lines up a set shot, I’m not trusting him anywhere near to the level I trust Dickson, Schache and even Naughton and Wallis. I’d like to see improvement.

I trust him more than Naughton. Naughton's not really reliable. The other three are.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I m sure I mentioned it earlier in this thread, I still think our set shot misses are all in the players heads. We have missed so many times that players are over thinking and worrying they will miss. We have to get over the psychological factors.
It comes down to technique which is taught at a junior level by good Coaching. Schache and Dickson stand out with learned correct disposal.

[bornadog]

It comes down to technique which is taught at a junior level by good Coaching. Schache and Dickson stand out with learned correct disposal.

I believe we have the techique. We have some fantastic kickers in our team. Suckling, Lloyd, Schache, Richards, Dickson, Bont, Crozier, to name a few. However, when they get in front of goal, they have issues.

[Twodogs]

I believe we have the techique. We have some fantastic kickers in our team. Suckling, Lloyd, Schache, Richards, Dickson, Bont, Crozier, to name a few. However, when they get in front of goal, they have issues.

That's why we are talking about goal kicking technique which is very different to field kicking technique.

[bornadog]

That's why we are talking about goal kicking technique which is very different to field kicking technique.

Goal kicking requires your concentration, and you still need to hit a target. Players are more relaxed when field kicking as they don't even think about it, whereas in goal kicking all sorts of minds games can happen.

[mjp]

So Bont talked a lot about this and what the players are doing about it on the ‘freedom’ podcast...

What did everyone think?

[Twodogs]

Goal kicking requires your concentration, and you still need to hit a target. Players are more relaxed when field kicking as they don't even think about it, whereas in goal kicking all sorts of minds games can happen.

Precisely. So the idea is to empty your mind of any outside distractions. Taking a deep breath should help facilitate that. Walking back and worrying about your technique isn't going to help.

It's sort of like getting to November and realising that you haven't submitted your tax return. If you let it get to that stage then all the hand wringing and panic in the world isn't going to help.

[ratsmac]

These goal kicking woes run deep, real deep. In fact it goes all the way to the supporters. Today I played super rules (old man slow motion footy), I had a chance to ice the game with a minute to go with a set shot from 20 meters out directly in front, well it was lucky to be a point. The ball goes up the other end and the other team kicks a goal after the siren.

So I apologise to any player I've ever swore at for missing easy set shots, it happens to the best of us :D

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Goal kicking same as putting in terms of routine and being so deliberate and scary. I played golf with a nurse who takes suicide calls in emergency. Yet she could crumble at the pressure of a short put that we should get.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Does anyone else feel like the second Tory retires that another club will employ him as their goal kicking coach? The bloke has an incredible record.

I hope we have at least trialled getting him to mentor other players.

[bornadog]

Does anyone else feel like the second Tory retires that another club will employ him as their goal kicking coach? The bloke has an incredible record.

I hope we have at least trialled getting him to mentor other players.

That goal he kicked on Saturday in the rain was a ripper and sealed the game. I agree he should be employed as a goal kicking coach.