Ahead of the curve, or just plain no good?

[ReLoad]

Well, its fair to say, that the start of the 2018 has been nothing short of a train wreck, and our percentage is certainly the indicator of just how noncompetitive we are for the majority.

So why? This question has had me thinking, and I’ve come up with two alternatives:

We’re ahead of the curve, miles ahead in fact! – Master coach and all round swami guru Bevo knows his stuff, and is playing a real cloak and dagger game, he saw at the end of our surprise premiership in 16 that our list was in trouble, it was pole ended (Veterans and kids) with not much in between, and he knew that it just wasn’t sustainable, so he knew that he needed to bring in and blood the next lot fairly quickly and hit that 100-125 game mark. (the cats and hawks dynasties) 2017 showed that with injury, and player disharmony that the list was indeed skewed.

So you can clearly see that half way through 17 a switch was flicked and we started on the path of re-balancing our list, this has continued unabated this year, and our drafting and trading strategy has shown that, its all about youth.

So where’s the cloak and dagger? Bevo and the club cannot come out and say “Hey I know we won a flag, but now we are going to take a step back and refocus the list for a tilt in 2021” that doesn’t sell memberships nor does it offer any sort of hope to any of us. – But is that what is really happening? Turn yourself in the saints or Melbourne? No thanks…..

Yes our injuries have hurt us a lot, Libba for me is the biggest “Opportunity loss” given that we haven’t seen him perform since ’16, Picken close second and of course the backline being non existent at various points. But its not the root cause issue of us being very ordinary

So reading the tea leaves in 2016; most teams don’t realise they are in a rebuild until its hitting them firmly in the face, I believe we knew this after we won a flag after we played the best single month of footy ever which just happened to be the last 4 weeks of the year.

Id like you all to put on your crystal ball tin foil hat wearing future x-ray glasses on and think about our 2021 side and the games played column:
A core of 200+ gamers Macrae, Dahl, Wallis, Wood, Roughhead, Suckling, Hunter
then the 100+ gamers (the vast bulk): Boyd, Bont, Dunkley, Cordy, Mclean, Dale, Daniel, JJ, Libba,
Then the 3-5 year players English, Naughton, Richards, Schache, Young, Limpinski, adams etc
Plus any trades/recruits/drafting for needs.

We’ve all seen this team (or a version of it) in 2016 win a flag, so we know they can do it.

Or the alternative:

Are we are just no good?

[Eastdog]

Good thread ReLoad.

Yes there are few factors to why we are struggling.

1.) Injuries to key personnel: Libba, Adams, Crozier, Morris etc 3 players there who form a significant part of our back line and one who is very important in the midfield and Hunter not playing this week made us very thin through the middle - at least he is coming back this week. Also Tom Boyd being out for a while and Redpath, Schache not playing has made getting goals a struggle although in recent weeks we have been hitting up more targets inside 50. Tom was good on Saturday night so thankfully he is back now and determined more than ever to regain his form.

2.) Many inexperienced players like Naugton, English, Richards, Lipinski etc - we cant be too hard on them right now all have shown good signs. A number of our more experienced players Bont and Wood our captain are well down and need to lift.

3.) Pressure not there for 4 quarters on the opposition - When this is not there than the opposition take full advantage and we start to crumble way too easily now and we need to be better in periods of the game when the momentum swings a bit against us to limit the damage on the scoreboard from the opposition. This has happened in the Eagles game in the 2nd quarter and on the weekend against Freo in the 3rd quarter. The pressure was there for the whole match against the Bombers and Swans and the Swans game we really deserved the victory.

[Rocket Science]

I was pissing and moaning to a mate yesterday that if nothing else our first month has provided some clarity.

Are we erratic or are we just a bit shit?

Here's your answer.

http://i65.tinypic.com/332ryf7.png

Yes, we're young, hen-pecked through injury and highly unsettled structurally but that merely explains rather than alters the end product.

It's increasingly obvious it's a developmental year. Play the kids and cull the habitually crap.

Carlton will fancy themselves on Friday, and they should. We're a soft target at the moment.

[Greystache]

Worst defence in the league. Well at least that's something!

[Eastdog]

Worst defence in the league. Well at least that's something!

2 years ago this was a strength of ours - team defence. We are way too easy to score against.

[bornadog]

2 years ago this was a strength of ours - team defence. We are way too easy to score against.

When you are missing Morris, Adams, and the retirement of Bob and Boyd, and trying to replace them with 18 year olds, then that is what is going to happen.

[Eastdog]

When you are missing Morris, Adams, and the retirement of Bob and Boyd, and trying to replace them with 18 year olds, then that is what is going to happen.

Yep relates back to point 1 in my post. Injuries to these players have really hurt us down there and yes losing Bob and Boyd has had an affect. I wonder if it would have been better to have M Boyd play on for another year. In his last game he played quite well. Morris unfortunately has just been hampered by injury.

[boydogs]

2 years ago we would have pictured a forward line of Stringer, Crameri, Dickson, Boyd, Smith, Picken as dominating. Just hasn't eventuated

[The Bulldogs Bite]

When you are missing Morris, Adams, and the retirement of Bob and Boyd, and trying to replace them with 18 year olds, then that is what is going to happen.

Which makes the early decisions to play Trengove, Wood and JJ all forward dumbfounding.

Injuries have really hurt us but discounting those are we rebuilding or not? The feel is we are, but yet we re-signed Roberts to a 2 year contract and went after Trengove and Crozier.

Perhaps we wanted Trengove and Crozier to help balance the retirements of Boyd, Murphy and soon-to-be Morris.

Ultimately, I have hated our list management since the Premiership and I was pretty vocal about it in November of 2016. Right now we have very few midfielders on our list and even fewer forwards.

[hujsh]

Which makes the early decisions to play Trengove, Wood and JJ all forward dumbfounding.

Injuries have really hurt us but discounting those are we rebuilding or not? The feel is we are, but yet we re-signed Roberts to a 2 year contract and went after Trengove and Crozier.

Perhaps we wanted Trengove and Crozier to help balance the retirements of Boyd, Murphy and soon-to-be Morris.

Ultimately, I have hated our list management since the Premiership and I was pretty vocal about it in November of 2016. Right now we have very few midfielders on our list and even fewer forwards.

Just because you're rebuilding doesn't mean you can't bring in established players. We've seen with Melbourne the damage that comes from not trying to win anymore and going all-in on youth. Trengove is 27 (30 when his contract ends) and Crozier 24 so they aren't an Akermanis like recruit there for a flag in the next 2 years.

I think this is the year we have a bigger cut into the list. Figure out if guys like Webb, Honeychurch, Campbell, Smith and to a lesser extend Jong are worth hanging onto and make a call. Guys like Roberts, R.Smith and Lynch (maybe NMM) if they can't establish a spot for themselves and show something at AFL level it's curtains for them too. Morris will probably retire and who knows what's ahead for Picken and Dickson.

That's potentially a big turnover and if this were to be offset with a more mature recruit or two I wouldn't be too upset.

[The bulldog tragician]

I imagine the club might have seen this as a bridging year with a serious crack at it in 2019. Crozier and Tengrove to assist with us maybe getting to finals, alongside the improving youngsters and the young blokes who got us that flag all reaching their prime and being in the critical 100 games plus category. The absence of Moz and Picken couldn’t be foreseen. They would have kept us perhaps in the group that are competing for the last few spots in the ladder, if Libba had been fit and set for the big year that seemed on the cards. We can’t seem to catch a break - Cordy plays his best game and gets suspended, then we lose Hunter. The fact that each week there have been multiple changes is a negative in itself. Young groups need predictability. Naughton alongside Dale Morris is a completely different proposition to him learning the ropes alongside Suckling and Cordy.

One thing that makes me concerned is not just that we’re so young/inexperienced, but you can’t always assume that young and inexperienced players all go on to make it. Webb, Honeychurch, Gowers drag down our ‘average’ but this is different from young players such as Richards and English, who seem certain to make it. (I can’t understand the strategy with Webb. Surely we either show patience and tell him he’s in the side, no matter what, for a four week block, or we decide he hasn’t got the right stuff and don’t select him. The seesaw must be hard on a guy who doesn’t seem brimming with confidence.)

I wonder who, even pre season, they expected to kick goals once Jake departed. We didn’t look potent even before injuries. I didn’t quite understand why we let Crameri go at the same time. He wasn’t Jason dunstall but was usually good to jag a couple most weeks.

We’ve had rotten luck but have also over estimated our list and been indecisive about the fate of fringe players.

[Rocket Science]

I get the feeling the likes of Trengove and Crozier were recruited as canny, under-the-radar types who'd be handy gap-fillers on a team with sincere finals ambitions - but given our increasingly shaky predicament they're suddenly middling players who we'll need to ask a bit too much of and their limitations more likely to be exposed as a consequence on an ordinary team with significant issues right across the park ... can't defend, can't score, getting trounced through the guts and can't stay healthy.

[The bulldog tragician]

If you take a whole of club look at it, maybe our injury/fitness management needs to be part of this question ( ie are we good enough?) as well. Did anyone else think that Redpath and Adams looked quite heavy going into the season? Did this play a part in their breakdowns? Are we particularly bad at managing big blokes and injuries as Adams, Collins, Redpath, Roughie, Trengove, Schache and TBOyd earlier on all struggling to get out there, or just unlucky?

[Eastdog]

If you take a whole of club look at it, maybe our injury/fitness management needs to be part of this question ( ie are we good enough?) as well. Did anyone else think that Redpath and Adams looked quite heavy going into the season? Did this play a part in their breakdowns? Are we particularly bad at managing big blokes and injuries as Adams, Collins, Redpath, Roughie, Trengove, Schache and TBOyd earlier on all struggling to get out there, or just unlucky?

I think just unlucky but you cant help but think it could be something to do with the management.

[BulldogBelle]

For as long as I can remember the side has never been good at list management. I remember complaining about our poor list management at the end of 2016 and received the reply that I "had to be taking the piss". The premiership wasn't about good list management but rather good recruiting. For example look at how many years we held onto Declan Hamilton when it should have been obvious after the first year that he was below par. Why do we hold onto below par players for so long, it mystifies me. Are we some sort of social club or just don't we show any intelligence or guts to delist players when they should be.

I suggest that we go right back to the very basics and state why we are in existence. Back to our constitution. Change our constitution to make sure we start with why we are in existence "TO WIN PREMIERSHIPS". (To the one-dimensional thinker this doesn't mean that we stop the Men's Health Programmes and other community projects as these also assist us to win a premiership).

Once we are all on the same wave-length we can really pose the questions of why we still have players like Roarke Smith and Honeychurch on our list as they should have been delisted years ago. Why is Webb still with us when he has been tried so many times? Why is Brad Lynch still there and Mullenger-McHugh and Fletcher Roberts still with us. None of these guys will ever amount to even a B grade AFL player.

If the list managers had any courage and nous they would have delisted Jong years ago also. I wouldn't have but they should have, they have to be better than me. Too afraid of making a mistake! Recruiting Billy Gowers might have been a mistake but I don't mind that because they are taking a calculated risk, and as we all know you don't get very far in the world without taking risks. What about Redpath, Campbell and Greene?

Now we are suffering due to injuries and we have an AFL team comprising sub-par players and only have sub-par players to bring in and replace them.

We have to voice our opinions on this very important matter directly to Peter Gordon, the buck stops with him. Not that its going to do any good because I wrote about this matter to him a couple of years ago and nothing happened.

[Twodogs]

To answer yiur question about why we hang onto fringe players too long. I think we are worried another club will pick them up and make them better footballer's. Take Liam Jones. Now Liam may or may not make it as a defender (I don't think he will, but his reaction to being worked out will be interesting) but if he does our development guys should be asked why Carlton thought of trying him in the defensive group but ours didn't?

[bornadog]

We have to voice our opinions on this very important matter directly to Peter Gordon, the buck stops with him. Not that its going to do any good because I wrote about this matter to him a couple of years ago and nothing happened.

I would hope he didn't do anything about it. Peter's role is not Football management.

[The bulldog tragician]

To answer yiur question about why we hang onto fringe players too long. I think we are worried another club will pick them up and make them better footballer's. Take Liam Jones. Now Liam may or may not make it as a defender (I don't think he will, but his reaction to being worked out will be interesting) but if he does our development guys should be asked why Carlton thought of trying him in the defensive group but ours didn't?
I think all clubs get jittery about trading away the next Josh Kennedy, but I think we also just finding it hard to tap on the shoulder guys like Prudden or Roarke Smith who we’ve seen go through injury. Is it that we think there’s untapped potential should their bodies ever come good, or understandable compassion for what they’ve been through makes us err on the side of wishful thinking?

(I do admit I had fears that Liam Jones might finally put it together, as every now and then he played a “breakout” game, unfortunately interspersed with “heartbreak” games.”)

Making these judgments must be the hardest thing in footy. It takes a club that is highly grounded in success and very confident in its ability to get it right, and wear the occasional wrong call, like Hawthorn for example; they don’t mess it up too often.

[Twodogs]

I think all clubs get jittery about trading away the next Josh Kennedy, but I think we also just finding it hard to tap on the shoulder guys like Prudden or Roarke Smith who we’ve seen go through injury. Is it that we think there’s untapped potential should their bodies ever come good, or understandable compassion for what they’ve been through makes us err on the side of wishful thinking?

(I do admit I had fears that Liam Jones might finally put it together, as every now and then he played a “breakout” game, unfortunately interspersed with “heartbreak” games.”)

Making these judgments must be the hardest thing in footy. It takes a club that is highly grounded in success and very confident in its ability to get it right, and wear the occasional wrong call, like Hawthorn for example; they don’t mess it up too often.

I truly believe that as a football club we are still spooked by recruiting decisions we made in the 70s and 80s. Every time we assess a fringe player and his worth to the club we must picture Brian Wilson, Tom Alvin, Alan Stoneham Peter Featherby, and all the others we made the exact same call on that we are being asked to make now.

Also these guys are the coache's co-workers/subordinate and it's easy to see all the good and none of the disadvantage in your work colleagues. Maybe a more independent panel could review list decisions looking for occasions of unconscious (or conscious) bias in them.

[bornadog]

To answer yiur question about why we hang onto fringe players too long. I think we are worried another club will pick them up and make them better footballer's. Take Liam Jones. Now Liam may or may not make it as a defender (I don't think he will, but his reaction to being worked out will be interesting) but if he does our development guys should be asked why Carlton thought of trying him in the defensive group but ours didn't?

Macca tried to make Roughead into a backman and that is why he didn't try Liam. I do get the points you are making above.

[GVGjr]

I think many people were blissfully prepared to write off 2017 as a bit of a gap year and were comfortable enough with the notion that's the price you pay to win a flag. Right through 2017 excuses were being made for our struggling defense of the flag including injuries to players, the late start to the playing season for us (8 weeks into the season and that was still being used), the loss of desire and work rate by some players and of course an unbalanced list.

I found a lot of this difficult to accept. Players were being paid, in most cases, a very tidy sum of money to perform and yet the general consensus was that if some of them were half arsed it was OK. We had one player arrive at the 2017 B&F intoxicated and and an interview with him was quickly taken off the website as he giggled like a school girl. We didn't appear to discipline non performing players through the season though and certainly none were treated the way other clubs might deal with distracted players.
Right through the season with our form fluctuating and questions being asked the club and coaches went to some level to confirm to all supporters and the media there was no premiership hangover and yet even though they were saying this I think most of us knew something wasn't right.

At the end of the season a clearly grumpy coach cleaned house with a highly rated player sent packing who wasn't living up to our standards. We moved on some veterans and recruited and traded for a couple of fill ins. We then shut out the media over the summer and got stuck into preparing for an improved 2018 season without distractions. There was some off field machinations but the playing group was given the clean air and space to get on with things.

Just before the season started we started to rack up some injuries which is a decent reason why we have been so inconsistent but I think most of can see that we are still a mile off where we need to be. The skill level by foot isn't there and our goal kicking conversions haven't improved. It's particularly disappointing given it was one of Bevo's mantra's when he arrived was to improve our kicking skills and even on the non preferred foot. We tinkered with where some players would be played which hasn't worked and we have picked some very unbalanced sides especially in the first two weeks and we stubbornly refuse to tag or really attempt to curb star midfield players from other sides. Even our pre-season games were difficult to fathom what we were trying to achieve and I don't think we gave enough players a chance to show their worth.

We have an unbalanced list in terms of positions and it's a list that we tend to modify most seasons rather than clean out.
We have a game plan that has been picked apart
We have a skill level that is serviceable but nothing to get excited about
Our goal kicking conversions are a problem that we don't appear be getting in top of.

Are we no good? To me, we aren't as good as we thought we were but we aren't as bad as the level we are performing at.
We are performing at a lower level than we should be.

We have 3 very winnable games ahead, win them all and we won't look to bad on the surface.
We can turn it around but we have a lot of work ahead
If we lose two of those games then the season becomes one about development.

[AndrewP6]

Who was drunk at the season launch?

[The bulldog tragician]

Who was drunk at the season launch?
That’s my question too.

[GVGjr]

That’s my question too.


Who was drunk at the season launch?

My error, It was actually the 2017 B&F

The interviewer was Josh Dunkley and the player who was edited out was Luke Dahlhaus

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2017-10-04/roaming-dunks-charles-sutton-medal-2017

[BulldogBelle]

I truly believe that as a football club we are still spooked by recruiting decisions we made in the 70s and 80s. Every time we assess a fringe player and his worth to the club we must picture Brian Wilson, Tom Alvin, Alan Stoneham Peter Featherby, and all the others we made the exact same call on that we are being asked to make now.

Also these guys are the coache's co-workers/subordinate and it's easy to see all the good and none of the disadvantage in your work colleagues. Maybe a more independent panel could review list decisions looking for occasions of unconscious (or conscious) bias in them.

I understand what you mean but I think that quartet was different. Peter Featherby played very well for us, he got the highest possession game with us ever (55 possessions), there were some people whinging about him not tackling enough and doing short kicks. I think that he just wanted to go back home to WA. Then Geelong pounced on him. Brian Wilson was delisted by coach David Thorpe (whimsically I thought) because he ran his time trial too slowly not because he couldn't play football. Tom Avlin never played for us, he was pinched by Carlton. Alan Stoneham was recruited at age 16 and people had great expectations of him, that he did not meet. He went to Essendon at age 24 where he was just a serviceable player.

We should have nightmares about delisting the Reid brothers. I thought that they were good enough to stay on. Look who their sons are playing for now. That was a dumb-ass delisting.

I like your idea of an independent panel. I would dearly like a football audit team to go into the club halfway through the year and also at the end of the year. They would find out everything that there is to find out, analyse everything that there is to be analysed and then make recommendations for change. Surely this is a no-brainer. Why isn't it done.

[AndrewP6]

My error, It was actually the 2017 B&F

The interviewer was Josh Dunkley and the player who was edited out was Luke Dahlhaus

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2017-10-04/roaming-dunks-charles-sutton-medal-2017

By the look of that clip, whoever was cameraman was also on the turps.

[BulldogBelle]

I would hope he didn't do anything about it. Peter's role is not Football management.

Peter's role sure is Football management, his role is also making sure that the toilets are clean, that the pies are hot at half time and that the doors are locked at night.

He is responsible for every thing at the club and everything that the club says and does. If it is broken he has to fix it. If it is going crooked he has to straighten it. It is his job.

I am sure that Peter is not the 'laissez faire' type leader who lets thing just roll along.

[Rocket Science]

I think many people were blissfully prepared to write off 2017 as a bit of a gap year and were comfortable enough with the notion that's the price you pay to win a flag. Right through 2017 excuses were being made for our struggling defense of the flag including injuries to players, the late start to the playing season for us (8 weeks into the season and that was still being used), the loss of desire and work rate by some players and of course an unbalanced list.

I found a lot of this difficult to accept. Players were being paid, in most cases, a very tidy sum of money to perform and yet the general consensus was that if some of them were half arsed it was OK. We had one player arrive at the 2017 B&F intoxicated and and an interview with him was quickly taken off the website as he giggled like a school girl. We didn't appear to discipline non performing players through the season though and certainly none were treated the way other clubs might deal with distracted players.
Right through the season with our form fluctuating and questions being asked the club and coaches went to some level to confirm to all supporters and the media there was no premiership hangover and yet even though they were saying this I think most of us knew something wasn't right.

At the end of the season a clearly grumpy coach cleaned house with a highly rated player sent packing who wasn't living up to our standards. We moved on some veterans and recruited and traded for a couple of fill ins. We then shut out the media over the summer and got stuck into preparing for an improved 2018 season without distractions. There was some off field machinations but the playing group was given the clean air and space to get on with things.

Just before the season started we started to rack up some injuries which is a decent reason why we have been so inconsistent but I think most of can see that we are still a mile off where we need to be. The skill level by foot isn't there and our goal kicking conversions haven't improved. It's particularly disappointing given it was one of Bevo's mantra's when he arrived was to improve our kicking skills and even on the non preferred foot. We tinkered with where some players would be played which hasn't worked and we have picked some very unbalanced sides especially in the first two weeks and we stubbornly refuse to tag or really attempt to curb star midfield players from other sides. Even our pre-season games were difficult to fathom what we were trying to achieve and I don't think we gave enough players a chance to show their worth.

We have an unbalanced list in terms of positions and it's a list that we tend to modify most seasons rather than clean out.
We have a game plan that has been picked apart
We have a skill level that is serviceable but nothing to get excited about
Our goal kicking conversions are a problem that we don't appear be getting in top of.

Are we no good? To me, we aren't as good as we thought we were but we aren't as bad as the level we are performing at.
We are performing at a lower level than we should be.

We have 3 very winnable games ahead, win them all and we won't look to bad on the surface.
We can turn it around but we have a lot of work ahead
If we lose two of those games then the season becomes one about development.

You've neatly nailed it there.

1-and-4 might be 4-and-4 after tilts against the only two sides below us and the Suns. Talk about handy timing. But it'll be the nature of those wins - IF we can earn them - that'll be most revealing.

A four-and-four's record's not much to hang our hats on if we fall over the line unconvincingly along the way.

[bornadog]

Peter's role sure is Football management, his role is also making sure that the toilets are clean, that the pies are hot at half time and that the doors are locked at night.

He is responsible for every thing at the club and everything that the club says and does. If it is broken he has to fix it. If it is going crooked he has to straighten it. It is his job.

I am sure that Peter is not the 'laissez faire' type leader who lets thing just roll along.

A president cannot ever try to interfere with who is delisted and who is recruited. I don't know any AFL President that has ever done that. Sure if the club has decided to go after some highly regarded player, he can play a part, but to think he should go to the head of the football department and ask for players to be delisted, well that is just a nonsense.

[bornadog]

We have an unbalanced list in terms of positions and it's a list

Assume no players are injured, where do you think we are unbalanced?

[GVGjr]

Assume no players are injured, where do you think we are unbalanced?

A swag of tall defenders to start with. 8 key defenders not counting Morris looks lopsided to me. Adams, Roberts, Cordy, Naughton, Trengove, Young, Mullenger-McHugh and Collins.
Morris, Wood, Williams, Suckling, Richards, Crozier, Biggs, Smith and Johannisen as half back types might be a couple too many.
You might be able to argue NMM more as a forward but he's been tried as a defender a few times as well.

[Twodogs]

I understand what you mean but I think that quartet was different. Peter Featherby played very well for us, he got the highest possession game with us ever (55 possessions), there were some people whinging about him not tackling enough and doing short kicks. I think that he just wanted to go back home to WA. Then Geelong pounced on him. Brian Wilson was delisted by coach David Thorpe (whimsically I thought) because he ran his time trial too slowly not because he couldn't play football. Tom Avlin never played for us, he was pinched by Carlton. Alan Stoneham was recruited at age 16 and people had great expectations of him, that he did not meet. He went to Essendon at age 24 where he was just a serviceable player.

We should have nightmares about delisting the Reid brothers. I thought that they were good enough to stay on. Look who their sons are playing for now. That was a dumb-ass delisting.

I like your idea of an independent panel. I would dearly like a football audit team to go into the club halfway through the year and also at the end of the year. They would find out everything that there is to find out, analyse everything that there is to be analysed and then make recommendations for change. Surely this is a no-brainer. Why isn't it done.


The club certainly needs an audit or an independent review to find out what the source of this funk is we have found ourselves in. Funk is the nicest word I could think of. We won a flag less than 30 games ago and now blokes who played in that side are struggling with aspects of playing VFL football. You can count on one hand the players who have improved overc the last 18 months.

[MrMahatma]

A swag of tall defenders to start with. 8 key defenders not counting Morris looks lopsided to me. Adams, Roberts, Cordy, Naughton, Trengove, Young, Mullenger-McHugh and Collins.
Morris, Wood, Williams, Suckling, Richards, Crozier, Biggs, Smith and Johannisen as half back types might be a couple too many.
You might be able to argue NMM more as a forward but he's been tried as a defender a few times as well.

Reckon our midfield doesn't bat as deep as we all (certainly I) thought either.

[GVGjr]

Reckon our midfield doesn't bat as deep as we all (certainly I) thought either.

I think we are a couple of genuine midfielders light on. Have a look at the players we have drafted over the last few seasons. It's like the land of the giants. I've previously made comments that we have tended to draft in batches of similar players and the last 3 drafts have focused on taller players.

[Twodogs]

BTW how long will it be before an article about us appears in the media titled "Bulldogs. Ahead of the curve or just plain no good? With a bunch of posts run together into an article?

[GVGjr]

When you are missing Morris, Adams, and the retirement of Bob and Boyd, and trying to replace them with 18 year olds, then that is what is going to happen.

It's like we are saying we didn't know Boyd and Murphy were going to retire.
How good was Boyd in 2017? He played just 7 senior games and from memory a lot of people thought he was lucky to get that many.
As for Murphy, didn't he play forward a lot in 2017? He only played 3 games in 2016.

From my perspective we had the chance to blood other players to cover their losses. Losing Bob and M.Boyd isn't a reasonable excuse to me.

[FrediKanoute]

It's like we are saying we didn't know Boyd and Murphy were going to retire.
How good was Boyd in 2017? He played just 7 senior games and from memory a lot of people thought he was lucky to get that many.
As for Murphy, didn't he play forward a lot in 2017? He only played 3 games in 2016.

From my perspective we had the chance to blood other players to cover their losses. Losing Bob and M.Boyd isn't a reasonable excuse to me.

Bigger loss has been Picken, Adams, Libba, Smith, Dickson, T Boyd and this year the untimely suspension of Cordy and Hunter. Also, and I know this is sacrilege, Stringer has been a loss in that he no longer gets the best defender. Since 2016, we have barely/rarely had out best team on the park without form or injury issues.

Hypothetically, we field a round 1-5 team with the above 6 playing - we would be sitting 4-1 not 1-4. Is that depth? Maybe, but I think we under appreciate the impact injury has had.

[GVGjr]

Bigger loss has been Picken, Adams, Libba, Smith, Dickson, T Boyd and this year the untimely suspension of Cordy and Hunter. Also, and I know this is sacrilege, Stringer has been a loss in that he no longer gets the best defender. Since 2016, we have barely/rarely had out best team on the park without form or injury issues.

Hypothetically, we field a round 1-5 team with the above 6 playing - we would be sitting 4-1 not 1-4. Is that depth? Maybe, but I think we under appreciate the impact injury has had.

Injuries are a consideration but to me the concern is around the style of football we are playing. In what area's are we improving?
If we can get back into the winning circle over the next 3 weeks it will look decent at 4 wins and 4 losses but we need to look past that and start rating the performance of the coaches and players on our work ethic, skills, goal kicking and the way we prepare for the opposition. 3 very winnable games are ahead of us but as important as those wins are we need to also see improvement across the ground.

[MrMahatma]

Injuries are a consideration but to me the concern is around the style of football we are playing. In what area's are we improving?
If we can get back into the winning circle over the next 3 weeks it will look decent at 4 wins and 4 losses but we need to look past that and start rating the performance of the coaches and players on our work ethic, skills, goal kicking and the way we prepare for the opposition. 3 very winnable games are ahead of us but as important as those wins are we need to also see improvement across the ground.

The Blues, Lions and Suns have all played better footy than us this year. Lions are 2 kicks off being 2:2. Suns have finally got themselves playing as a team. We will struggle these next 3 weeks. Mark my words. We're more likely to be 1-7 or 2-6 than 4-4.

[Twodogs]

The Blues, Lions and Suns have all played better footy than us this year. Lions are 2 kicks off being 2:2. Suns have finally got themselves playing as a team. We will struggle these next 3 weeks. Mark my words. We're more likely to be 1-7 or 2-6 than 4-4.

Yep, I was thinking yesterday that GC should be nicely primed by the time they play us in a few weeks.

[LostDoggy]

Reckon our midfield doesn't bat as deep as we all (certainly I) thought either.

The midfield situation is confusing. Our midfield group that won us a flag in 2016 are all still there and should be closer to their playing peaks now; Bont, Macrae, Libba, McLean, Hunter, Dahl, Daniel, Dunkley, JJ (and Wallis , Jong, Dale and HC in the mix).

If this group won us a flag as 18-24 year olds, there is something seriously wrong with our coaching/development if they are barely competitive 18 months later. There must be other issues?

[Mofra]

Ultimately, I have hated our list management since the Premiership and I was pretty vocal about it in November of 2016. Right now we have very few midfielders on our list and even fewer forwards.
All true - not that we play forwards forward anyway.

Gowers and Dickson playing up the ground, Schache in the ruck, Boyd predominantly ruck - all head shakers when you consider we threw Wood forward.
JJ was 'ok' forward and Adams, in the 15 minutes he hasn't been injured, looked ok there too. Other positional changes have been disasters.

[bornadog]

All true - not that we play forwards forward anyway.

Gowers and Dickson playing up the ground, Schache in the ruck, Boyd predominantly ruck - all head shakers when you consider we threw Wood forward.
JJ was 'ok' forward and Adams, in the 15 minutes he hasn't been injured, looked ok there too. Other positional changes have been disasters.

You and others are over dramatising positional changes.

In the AFL, Schache hasn't played seniors at this stage ( for us) , and is learning his role as a Forward/ruck in the VFL. On Saturday Boyd only filled in the ruck for short stints, Wood played Forward for 3 quarters out of 5 games, as did JJ, and Gowers and Dickson are forwards, but may find themselves up the field depending on the game and where their opponents are.

[bornadog]

The midfield situation is confusing. Our midfield group that won us a flag in 2016 are all still there and should be closer to their playing peaks now; Bont, Macrae, Libba, McLean, Hunter, Dahl, Daniel, Dunkley, JJ (and Wallis , Jong, Dale and HC in the mix).

If this group won us a flag as 18-24 year olds, there is something seriously wrong with our coaching/development if they are barely competitive 18 months later. There must be other issues?

The only thing I can point to is on field leadership, and maybe there is something missing there.

I don't care what people say but having Naughton, Richards, Lipinski, Gowers, English all with a hand full of games each, plus Webb HC and Williams and Dunkley have all played less than 30 games each - surely this is going to affect your performance.

[Mofra]

Making these judgments must be the hardest thing in footy. It takes a club that is highly grounded in success and very confident in its ability to get it right, and wear the occasional wrong call, like Hawthorn for example; they don’t mess it up too often.
Josh Kennedy and McGlynn have been more than handy for Sydney, but every club will shed players that thrive somewhere else. Heck, Sydney gave us Biggs for nothing and we turned Hamling into a 'yet to debut developing type' into a premiership CHB.

Most of our fringe players haven't really kicked on e.g. Birss, Everitt, Jarrad Grant, Jarrad Boumann, Liam Jones, Jason Tutt, Nathan Hrovat.

Shaun Higgins is the exception (North B&F winner) and he was a FA and not fringe anyway.

[Mofra]

You and others are over dramatising positional changes.

In the AFL, Schache hasn't played seniors at this stage ( for us) , and is learning his role as a Forward/ruck in the VFL. On Saturday Boyd only filled in the ruck for short stints, Wood played Forward for 3 quarters out of 5 games, as did JJ, and Gowers and Dickson are forwards, but may find themselves up the field depending on the game and where their opponents are.
TBH I think you're underselling it.
This isn't a bush league where you just stick players on the field and hope for the best. Coaching and synergy beats talent as we all saw in 2016.

Defence especially needs to be settled as knowing when to peel off and help out your teammate, and when to stay on your direct opponent, only really comes with hours of training and playing together.
Those hours simply aren't there for most of our defenders, exacerbated by our only D50 leader (Wood) spending all pre-season forward.

Forwardlines work when everyone instinctively knows each other's running patterns - see Boyd's first goal in the GF, I was right above it and his leading pattern to get to Bonti's kick (and Bonti's kick to him) were both sublime.
Without time to build that chemistry we look like a shambles going forward at times.

Then there's a midfield that is thin with losses to key personnel - Libba as our best inside mid, and losing Hunter last week (our best runner) was horrible for us. Knowing we're conceding taps (let's be honest, English will be a star but he's not one yet) means we have to set up a little more defensively in the middle which hurts our offense.

I remember Eade just settling the defensive set up and copping a few pastings in his first year to gel the unit which from 2008-10 became one of the best defensive setups I've seen in the red, white and blue. A part of me wonders if just playing Richards (raw), Naughton, Williams, Cordy all together right now is part of a plan to forge the same level of instinct. If so it's little wonder Biggs is on the outer.

[Bullies]

I also don't think we can rely on some of the injured guys making much of a difference if and when they return. Picken to me was probably cooked at the end of last year. Dickson may have gone a year too long as he continued to get injured last year. Adams does not look like he can stand up to the rigors of AFL. Morris will struggle when he returns after he has been out for so long and he was struggling last year. Libba is a massive loss and will back him to come back next year. Roberts is obviously not in their plans. Everyone has fallen around him and he still cant get a game. Clay Smith wont get any quicker the longer he is out injured. Collins will probably not make it. Just think there could be a bit more pain to go through before it gets better. Also a few of the guys we thought would take the next step have not - Dale, Dalhaus and even the Bont is struggling.

[Twodogs]

TBH I think you're underselling it.
This isn't a bush league where you just stick players on the field and hope for the best. Coaching and synergy beats talent as we all saw in 2016.

Defence especially needs to be settled as knowing when to peel off and help out your teammate, and when to stay on your direct opponent, only really comes with hours of training and playing together.
Those hours simply aren't there for most of our defenders, exacerbated by our only D50 leader (Wood) spending all pre-season forward.

Forwardlines work when everyone instinctively knows each other's running patterns - see Boyd's first goal in the GF, I was right above it and his leading pattern to get to Bonti's kick (and Bonti's kick to him) were both sublime.
Without time to build that chemistry we look like a shambles going forward at times.

Then there's a midfield that is thin with losses to key personnel - Libba as our best inside mid, and losing Hunter last week (our best runner) was horrible for us. Knowing we're conceding taps (let's be honest, English will be a star but he's not one yet) means we have to set up a little more defensively in the middle which hurts our offense.

I remember Eade just settling the defensive set up and copping a few pastings in his first year to gel the unit which from 2008-10 became one of the best defensive setups I've seen in the red, white and blue. A part of me wonders if just playing Richards (raw), Naughton, Williams, Cordy all together right now is part of a plan to forge the same level of instinct. If so it's little wonder Biggs is on the outer.

You could be onto something there.

[mjp]

TBH I think you're underselling it.
This isn't a bush league where you just stick players on the field and hope for the best. Coaching and synergy beats talent as we all saw in 2016.



Well....

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but at the same time it isn't a bush league and our players SHOULD be able to 'fill in' in various roles without causing the fabric of the team to fall apart.

I know I said having Wood play forward all pre-season was crazy because it prevented the defensive group from getting repetitions together, but at the same time surely to goodness we don't need Libba and Hunter in the midfield for the group to identify that it might be a good idea to get some physical pressure aroudn the contest at ground level and cover the exits in defensive transition...

Pretty sure there were 14 or 15 premiership players out there on Saturday night. I am actually really tired of the injuries excuse. In three of our games we have been non-competitive...that is not injuries.

[bornadog]

. In three of our games we have been non-competitive...that is not injuries.

In the three losses, GWS just killed us, against WC, it was really the second quarter. In the second half we had more shots at goal and lost that half by 2 goals, and on memory, I think the first quarter was pretty even. Against Freo, the third quarter was a disaster.

I guess what I am trying to say is, we have been very inconsistent in games, and need to concentrate and do all the hard work for 4 quarters.

[Twodogs]

Well....

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but at the same time it isn't a bush league and our players SHOULD be able to 'fill in' in various roles without causing the fabric of the team to fall apart.

I know I said having Wood play forward all pre-season was crazy because it prevented the defensive group from getting repetitions together, but at the same time surely to goodness we don't need Libba and Hunter in the midfield for the group to identify that it might be a good idea to get some physical pressure aroudn the contest at ground level and cover the exits in defensive transition...

Pretty sure there were 14 or 15 premiership players out there on Saturday night. I am actually really tired of the injuries excuse. In three of our games we have been non-competitive...that is not injuries.


I'm getting sick of excuses full stop. Its On my way! To start treating us like grown ups and tell us what's going on. Because when you see spiritless performances like the weekends and nothing is said apart from a few cliches about the players being disappointed and watch out for us next week isn't buttering the parsnips anymore.

[Go_Dogs]

You could be onto something there.

Biggs is on the outer because his football hasn't been great.



On topic, at the moment we are plain no good, however it can turn quickly. Some key movers need to start having a more consistent, high level impact (Bont, Hunter, Wood) and we need to continue developing our young players and assessing our list. If we can get ourselves to 4-4 or 3-5, we give ourselves a chance and can build into the back end of the season and hopefully have some players back in Morris, Adams and Dickson.

[Twodogs]

Biggs is on the outer because his football hasn't been great.



On topic, at the moment we are plain no good, however it can turn quickly. Some key movers need to start having a more consistent, high level impact (Bont, Hunter, Wood) and we need to continue developing our young players and assessing our list. If we can get ourselves to 4-4 or 3-5, we give ourselves a chance and can build into the back end of the season and hopefully have some players back in Morris, Adams and Dickson.

True but it's a bad time for him not to be playing great football.

I get the feeling that if it came down to the last spot in the team and it was between Biggs and a younger guy we want to get senior football into (Richards for example) then we would go with Richards. I'm not saying that it's all over for Biggs (I hope it isn't because I like him as a player and think when he's in form and on song he has plenty to offer). He would want to start putting some good footy together though because the game can go past a player really quickly.

[The bulldog tragician]

Josh Kennedy and McGlynn have been more than handy for Sydney, but every club will shed players that thrive somewhere else. Heck, Sydney gave us Biggs for nothing and we turned Hamling into a 'yet to debut developing type' into a premiership CHB.

Most of our fringe players haven't really kicked on e.g. Birss, Everitt, Jarrad Grant, Jarrad Boumann, Liam Jones, Jason Tutt, Nathan Hrovat.

Shaun Higgins is the exception (North B&F winner) and he was a FA and not fringe anyway.

Yes, Kennedy and Mcglynn are also examples of a successful club able to weather its decisions due to a strong culture of usually getting it right. I don’t imagine as the flags rolled in for the Hawks in the 3 peat years that anyone harped on about letting Josh Kennedy go, magnificent a player as he turned out to be. They were able to ride out the initial criticism of recruiting Jaeger Omeara for similar reasons, with the score on the board and their track record, even an occasional mis-step just becomes something else to learn from. I think I’ll stop, Hawthorn annoy the hell out of me.

[The bulldog tragician]

Well....

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but at the same time it isn't a bush league and our players SHOULD be able to 'fill in' in various roles without causing the fabric of the team to fall apart.

I know I said having Wood play forward all pre-season was crazy because it prevented the defensive group from getting repetitions together, but at the same time surely to goodness we don't need Libba and Hunter in the midfield for the group to identify that it might be a good idea to get some physical pressure aroudn the contest at ground level and cover the exits in defensive transition...

Pretty sure there were 14 or 15 premiership players out there on Saturday night. I am actually really tired of the injuries excuse. In three of our games we have been non-competitive...that is not injuries.

Missing from our premiership were 11 players.
Matt Boyd
lachie Hunter
Jake stringer
Clay Smith
fletcher Roberts
Libba
Jordan Roughead
Dale Morris
Shane Biggs
Liam Picken
Joel Hamling
(Tory Dickson for half the match)

[Twodogs]

Yes, Kennedy and Mcglynn are also examples of a successful club able to weather its decisions due to a strong culture of usually getting it right. I don’t imagine as the flags rolled in for the Hawks in the 3 peat years that anyone harped on about letting Josh Kennedy go, magnificent a player as he turned out to be. They were able to ride out the initial criticism of recruiting Jaeger Omeara for similar reasons, with the score on the board and their track record, even an occasional mis-step just becomes something else to learn from. I think I’ll stop, Hawthorn annoy the hell out of me.


I remember reading on BF back in the day and one poster was trying to troll a Hawthorn poster with the fact they let Gary Ablett sr slip through their fingers. "How stupid were Hawthorn giving Gary Ablett sr away? It must have been a huge embarrassment everytime He kicked a bag for us" said this particularly gormless moron as he tried to drive home the advantage he thought he had in the debate. I'll never forget the reply "mate we won five flags while he played at Geelong. Real embarrassed."

[Happy Days]

Kennedy (and McGlynn as well for that matter) showed a fair bit at Hawthorn, but was squeezed out due to a number of factors working against him. Clarkson was really hesitant to play him ahead of guys like Sewell and Bateman, and he also made a crucial error (didn't give to Bud I think but it's been a long time) in one of his last games for the Hawks that I've heard a few times Clarko couldn't get passed.

A guy of that size that plays his position was always worth a shot, especially at that ridiculously low price.

[LostDoggy]

Josh Kennedy and McGlynn have been more than handy for Sydney, but every club will shed players that thrive somewhere else. Heck, Sydney gave us Biggs for nothing and we turned Hamling into a 'yet to debut developing type' into a premiership CHB.

Most of our fringe players haven't really kicked on e.g. Birss, Everitt, Jarrad Grant, Jarrad Boumann, Liam Jones, Jason Tutt, Nathan Hrovat.

Shaun Higgins is the exception (North B&F winner) and he was a FA and not fringe anyway.

Hawthorn had another handy player go to Sydney prior to their 3peat who did okay; Lance Franklin.

[mjp]

Missing from our premiership were 11 players.
Matt Boyd
lachie Hunter
Jake stringer
Clay Smith
fletcher Roberts
Libba
Jordan Roughead
Dale Morris
Shane Biggs
Liam Picken
Joel Hamling
(Tory Dickson for half the match)

Umm. OK. But Biggs, Roughead and Roberts were playing 2's. So the MC has decided we have BETTER options available. When Smith hasn't been injured he has been playing 2's so stick him in that category as well. Stringer and Hamling were traded so the MC decided we had BETTER options available. Boyd was retired so the MC decided we had BETTER options available. Murphy was done (mentally), Libba is injured - so is Picken, so is Morris.

So we go from Premiers to 18th because of injuries to 3x players?

You are going to tell me I am simplifying things - and I am - but saying we have 'x' premiership players missing is not a reason for getting belted. I accept we had 11x premiership players MISSING vs Freo...which means we still had 12 PLAYING (Suckling counts)...does anyone else apart from Richmond have that many running out each week?

[Mofra]

Hawthorn had another handy player go to Sydney prior to their 3peat who did okay; Lance Franklin.
IIRC he was part of their first one?

Given the coin/contract he wanted the Hawks could never match that.
Instead they brought in guys like Gunston, Hale, Lake, and going back a little Burgoyne and Gibson. Maximum bang for buck.

Either way it is the core group of drafted players that drive a club to a flag and we've picked up two first rounders last year and it looks like we'll get a first round pick before West too. That's adding 4 first rounders in the two years following a flag - I know things look crap right now but I'm not ready to write the club off from 2019 and beyond as we've all seen how quickly things can turn around and games against Essendon and Sydney show even our current list is competitive when things go right.

[LostDoggy]

IIRC he was part of their first one?

Given the coin/contract he wanted the Hawks could never match that.
Instead they brought in guys like Gunston, Hale, Lake, and going back a little Burgoyne and Gibson. Maximum bang for buck.

Either way it is the core group of drafted players that drive a club to a flag and we've picked up two first rounders last year and it looks like we'll get a first round pick before West too. That's adding 4 first rounders in the two years following a flag - I know things look crap right now but I'm not ready to write the club off from 2019 and beyond as we've all seen how quickly things can turn around and games against Essendon and Sydney show even our current list is competitive when things go right.

I agree. Tim English in our Premiership year could be added to the list too. Tehnically not quite a first rounder, but I bet he'd be in the first 18 pretty comfortably if there was a redraft - he's first round talent for sure.

[Twodogs]

IIRC he was part of their first one?

Given the coin/contract he wanted the Hawks could never match that.
Instead they brought in guys like Gunston, Hale, Lake, and going back a little Burgoyne and Gibson. Maximum bang for buck.

Either way it is the core group of drafted players that drive a club to a flag and we've picked up two first rounders last year and it looks like we'll get a first round pick before West too. That's adding 4 first rounders in the two years following a flag - I know things look crap right now but I'm not ready to write the club off from 2019 and beyond as we've all seen how quickly things can turn around and games against Essendon and Sydney show even our current list is competitive when things go right.


Hawthorn quietly acquire players rather than go the big trade, although they will do that too like Burgoyne and O' Meara. But their usual MO is identify a player like Gibson or Gunston or Hale who aren't necessarily stars at their own club but Hawthorn see a role for, tap them up and then make an outrageously decent offer to their club at trade time.

Did Gibson win a B&F at North so he's a fair player but he goes up many notches at Hawthorn. Gunston is a first round pick with two years experience when Hawthorn pick him up. It must be good confidently selling a premiership dream as a list manager/recruiter.

[The bulldog tragician]

Umm. OK. But Biggs, Roughead and Roberts were playing 2's. So the MC has decided we have BETTER options available. When Smith hasn't been injured he has been playing 2's so stick him in that category as well. Stringer and Hamling were traded so the MC decided we had BETTER options available. Boyd was retired so the MC decided we had BETTER options available. Murphy was done (mentally), Libba is injured - so is Picken, so is Morris.

So we go from Premiers to 18th because of injuries to 3x players?

You are going to tell me I am simplifying things - and I am - but saying we have 'x' premiership players missing is not a reason for getting belted. I accept we had 11x premiership players MISSING vs Freo...which means we still had 12 PLAYING (Suckling counts)...does anyone else apart from Richmond have that many running out each week?
Of course, and the players who WERE stars in our premiership (Bont, Wood, JJ, Dahlhaus, TBOyd in first game back)are also not playing at the same level. It’s more about the perfect storm. The defence is particularly depleted. The “grunt” players - Libba, Picken - are missing (we are pretty meek at present). The second tier players from the flag - Biggs, Cordy, Dunkley - haven’t really come on. So it’s not just the players missing, yes, it’s the form and mindset of those who remain (bearing in mind they are still young themselves).

But history also says a team of such a young age profile is usually inconsistent and non-competitive in many areas.

I think I said somewhere else that the real concern is we are not talking about young Bont, Stringer and co in their first seasons where the potential was obvious and exciting, but “youngish” players who’ve never really impressed & have deficiencies (Honey, Webb, maybe Jong). I’m not really seeing 100-gamers among them, but then again we saw in 2016 how much a collective will can lift those players to new levels.

[bornadog]

Pretty sure there were 14 or 15 premiership players out there on Saturday night. I am actually really tired of the injuries excuse. In three of our games we have been non-competitive...that is not injuries.


Robbo read this thought it was true (actual number less than 10) and decided to use it on AFL360

[Twodogs]

You can't rely on us to do your research Robbo. Really, less than 10 players from the flag side on Saturday night?

[soupman]

Robbo read this thought it was true (actual number less than 10) and decided to use it on AFL360

It was 11 plus Suckling who technically is a premiership player.

[bornadog]

It was 11 plus Suckling who technically is a premiership player.

Robbo said 16

[Mofra]

I think I said somewhere else that the real concern is we are not talking about young Bont, Stringer and co in their first seasons where the potential was obvious and exciting, but “youngish” players who’ve never really impressed & have deficiencies (Honey, Webb, maybe Jong). I’m not really seeing 100-gamers among them, but then again we saw in 2016 how much a collective will can lift those players to new levels.
Naughton and Richards are in their first seasons and English had only two games to his name entering 2017 - to me they are the equivalent of the Bont, Stringer types who look set to be 200 game players.
Naughton is holding down a KPP post in his first season on an AFL list - that's a phenomenal effort given we have KPDs who have been fit and not selected ahead of him (or in the case of Trengove, in the position ahead of him).

I don't have the stats to back it up but I'm certain that our 2016 Premiership side had more rookies/DFA/PSD picks than any other and we've already had Gowers force his way into the team this year and I'm pleased with Porter getting named in the bests at VFL level at least once. Late pick, young kid, to me he looks like he has the talent to develop.

As they say, things are never as good - or bad - as they appear.

[Twodogs]

Naughton and Richards are in their first seasons and English had only two games to his name entering 2017 - to me they are the equivalent of the Bont, Stringer types who look set to be 200 game players.
Naughton is holding down a KPP post in his first season on an AFL list - that's a phenomenal effort given we have KPDs who have been fit and not selected ahead of him (or in the case of Trengove, in the position ahead of him).

I don't have the stats to back it up but I'm certain that our 2016 Premiership side had more rookies/DFA/PSD picks than any other and we've already had Gowers force his way into the team this year and I'm pleased with Porter getting named in the bests at VFL level at least once. Late pick, young kid, to me he looks like he has the talent to develop.

As they say, things are never as good - or bad - as they appear.


I reckon that you could include Lewie Young as a 200 gamer too.

[Mofra]

I reckon that you could include Lewie Young as a 200 gamer too.
I'd like to think so but part of me wonders if we'll either throw him forward at some stage and ruin his confidence or he departs for more opportunity at some point with Cordy & Naughton ahead of him and a reluctance to play three tall defenders.

That's assuming Adams is mostly injured or moved on, which is no certainty.

[bornadog]

I'd like to think so but part of me wonders if we'll either throw him forward at some stage and ruin his confidence or he departs for more opportunity at some point with Cordy & Naughton ahead of him and a reluctance to play three tall defenders.

That's assuming Adams is mostly injured or moved on, which is no certainty.

Didn't Young play forward in the VFL last year in the first half, then we threw him back when we had a lack of backman?

[azabob]

How many players have we said in their debut year would play 100+ games? The list would be endless.
Woof would be littered with them.
Naughton, Richards, Young and English may well play 100+ games but the odds also suggest 1 of them won’t.

[Mantis]

I don't have the stats to back it up but I'm certain that our 2016 Premiership side had more rookies/DFA/PSD picks than any other and we've already had Gowers force his way into the team this year and I'm pleased with Porter getting named in the bests at VFL level at least once. Late pick, young kid, to me he looks like he has the talent to develop.

As they say, things are never as good - or bad - as they appear.

Really?

I would've said gifted, but perhaps that's just me.

[GVGjr]

How many players have we said in their debut year would play 100+ games? The list would be endless.
Woof would be littered with them.
Naughton, Richards, Young and English may well play 100+ games but the odds also suggest 1 of them won’t.
While your prediction has some merit, I'd still rather see members go early than sit back and not participate. It can create some good debate