AFL Game Day Round 10, 2018 - Collingwood V Western Bulldogs at Etihad Stadium, Docklands

[bulldogtragic]

Just got back from game. What a deplorable game. I wasn’t that impressed with Collingwood we were just putrid. That second half was as bad as I have ever seen.

Some questions:

-What’s the fascination with Roarke Smith? I don’t get it.
-Why the persistence with Crozier? Can’t play back. Can’t play forward. Jumps at everything but doesn’t get near it.
-Is Wallis seriously not in our best 22? At least he gives you a contest. With no Libba, Picken, Clay and Morris we desperately need some hard bodied players.


Now he’s back, they need to give him some games to see if he should be retained.

I don’t see the Roarke thing. I understand the point you’re making, but there’s just not an AFL player that I can see.

[Greystache]

Changing them again would’ve made even less sense.

Changing something that didn't work would make no sense, especially after having changed it from something that was spectacularly successful? You've lost me.

[GVGjr]

Changing them again would’ve made even less sense.

Because we don't want to entertain the thought that we might have got it wrong?
Are you advocating that we should give it another year in the current set-up because it's too simplistic to blame the coaches or do we need a bit of a shake up?

[Sedat]

I don’t see the Roarke thing. I understand the point you’re making, but there’s just not an AFL player that I can see.
If it means freeing up someone like a Bailey Williams and giving him more midfield minutes, I'm happy to give Roarke a block of 4-5 games to see if he can cut it.

Williams has shown a propensity to get to where the ball is - time to try him in the middle or even on the wing, now that the season is notionally shot.

[Twodogs]

Extraordinary. Meanwhile we're playing Crozier who can play all 3 parts of the ground... appallingly.

Our football department looks a rabble on and off the field at the moment.

I can remember vividly almost every game we've played since 1976. I reckon at a conservative estimate that I've been to at least 700 of our games in person. In that time I've seen some awful players play for us but I don't think I've seen a player play worse football than Crozier did tonight.

[AndrewP6]

Because we don't want to entertain the thought that we might have got it wrong?
Are you advocating that we should give it another year in the current set-up because it's too simplistic to blame the coaches or do we need a bit of a shake up?

I wanted a shakeup several years ago, prior to the finals triumph. I would have preferred they leave it as it was after 2016, but now it’s done , I think it should remain as is, at least until we have a full complement of players to choose from. Don’t think yet another change would be that helpful.

[GVGjr]

I wanted a shakeup several years ago, prior to the finals triumph. I would have preferred they leave it as it was after 2016, but now it’s done , I think it should remain as is, at least until we have a full complement of players to choose from. Don’t think yet another change would be that helpful.

So it's just injuries? Not sure that holds true.

[AndrewP6]

So it's just injuries? Not sure that holds true.

Injuries, young group. That’s no more simplistic than saying it’s the coaches.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

He was not the difference tonight..clearly.. by a mile.. but his selection indicates its not just our players who are out of form and bereft of confidence.What exactly does Roarke Smith add? What was the compelling attribute that saw his elevation for tonight?

[angelopetraglia]

He was not the difference tonight..clearly.. by a mile.. but his selection indicates its not just our players who are out of form and bereft of confidence.What exactly does Roarke Smith add? What was the compelling attribute that saw his elevation for tonight?

I have never understood Bevo's fascination with Roarke.

[Eastdog]

Disappointed, frustrated that is all I can say.

[MrMahatma]

Injuries, young group. That’s no more simplistic than saying it’s the coaches.

Except how many of our best forwards weren't playing tonight to kick the 7-10 goals you'd expect in a half of footy? My guess is 0.

And how many mids were missing? Libba?

Our m injury list has given us all cold comfort to explain our poor performances in the past 20 odd matches.

The fact is we have a midfield that bombs it in, and forwards to either compete against each other or can't kick at goal.

At what point does the problem become back to decisions made by administration and coaches? They're getting off Scott free.

[GVGjr]

I'll put something on the Match Committee thread but we need to look at dropping Dale, Crozier, Smith (we won't) Lipinski and probably Cordy with concussion and we need to consider one of Young, Naughton or Adams (for Cordy) Biggs for Crozier, Jong for Lipinski, Wallis for Dale. Dunkley should be in the mix but probably won't be.
We then need to lock in Schache for a 4 or 5 week stint.

[ratsmac]

He was not the difference tonight..clearly.. by a mile.. but his selection indicates its not just our players who are out of form and bereft of confidence.What exactly does Roarke Smith add? What was the compelling attribute that saw his elevation for tonight?

I watched Footscray last week and Biggs was the player who should've got a game tonight. Smith was ok but did nothing that warranted an AFL call up. Bevo likes him obviously which is clouding his judgement if he sees Smith more worthy of a game before Biggs Jong and Wallis.

[bornadog]

Was always going to be tough playing 4 quarters after the game last week in monsoonal conditions - reckon Adelaide will be thrashed by Melbourne too.

BUT that 2nd half was a coach killer.

A lot of the players were labouring in the second half. Not sure if you were at the ground, but the way some players like Richards for example was just trotting every now and then and looked tired, even though he played a pretty good game.

[ratsmac]

Whatever Beveridge said to the players at half time put them to sleep. He unmotivated them!

[Eastdog]

Whatever Beveridge said to the players at half time put them to sleep. He unmotivated them!

We were partying in that 1st quarter and then had too many drinks afterwards and fell asleep.

[bornadog]

Except for Callum Porter as a speculative late pick (which we only got by delisting and re-rookieing Roarke Smith), we haven't drafted of traded for a mid since 2014. Meanwhile everyone else is loading up on them.

Baffling to say the least.

After GWS smashed us with a superior midfield, I commented that our midfield wasn't good enough and you wouldn't agree. Same thing tonight, we were exposed for pace. The difference is our midfield is not damaging enough. Other than Macrae and Bonti (who was down tonight), the other guys just don't hurt the opposition. Mclean, love him but his kicking is woeful out of the centre. Hunter same, with his crap kicks, Dahl fights his guts out but gives up the ball too easily.

We have to go after someone like Josh Kelly, and add some pace. Collingwood were very good at transitioning the ball from the backline to the forward line through their mids. We were slow as anything and gave our forwards no chance.

[macca]

I still do not understand what that free was for ??? Moments like this I feel like giving up watching the game

[macca]

I still do not understand what that free on williams for HTB, that resulted in Pendlebury goal, what was the freefor ??? Moments like this I feel like giving up watching the game

[Twodogs]

Is it worth giving Biggs a try in that small forward role we we've tried Honeychurch and JJ (and bizarrely Wood) in?

[Sedat]

After GWS smashed us with a superior midfield, I commented that our midfield wasn't good enough and you wouldn't agree. Same thing tonight, we were exposed for pace. The difference is our midfield is not damaging enough. Other than Macrae and Bonti (who was down tonight), the other guys just don't hurt the opposition. Mclean, love him but his kicking is woeful out of the centre. Hunter same, with his crap kicks, Dahl fights his guts out but gives up the ball too easily.

We have to go after someone like Josh Kelly, and add some pace. Collingwood were very good at transitioning the ball from the backline to the forward line through their mids. We were slow as anything and gave our forwards no chance.
Just had a look at the relevant threads and I can't find that anywhere. Irrespective, our midfield performance in R1 was disgraceful in terms of lack of two-way running, which was what I was most critical of that day.

The ensuing 8 weeks since then has seen our core midfield group stretched to breaking point - Hunter missed against Freo and we were pummelled, Bont missed against Gold Coast and it took a super-human effort from Macrae to get us over the line. By contrast West Coke have been without Shuey for weeks and have not missed a beat. We clearly don't have the requisite depth in this critical area, and have done bugger-all to bolster the area in the last 3 years.

[Twodogs]

Just had a look at the relevant threads and I can't find that anywhere. Irrespective, our midfield performance in R1 was disgraceful in terms of lack of two-way running, which was what I was most critical of that day.

The ensuing 8 weeks since then has seen our core midfield group stretched to breaking point - Hunter missed against Freo and we were pummelled, Bont missed against Gold Coast and it took a super-human effort from Macrae to get us over the line. By contrast West Coke have been without Shuey for weeks and have not missed a beat. We clearly don't have the requisite depth in this critical area, and have done bugger-all to bolster the area in the last 3 years.


Quite the opposite we have weakened it and bought nobody in to replace them.

[ratsmac]

Is it worth giving Biggs a try in that small forward role we we've tried Honeychurch and JJ (and bizarrely Wood) in?
Your starting to sound like our selection committee TD :D

[dog town]

I was critical of our team selection but I really don’t think mass criticism of Bevo and his team is warranted. Does anyone really think he is coaching a top 8 list? The coach does an enormous amount right unfortunately at the moment we have been caught out with our list.

[GVGjr]

I was critical of our team selection but I really don’t think mass criticism of Bevo and his team is warranted. Does anyone really think he is coaching a top 8 list? The coach does an enormous amount right unfortunately at the moment we have been caught out with our list.
After 2015 and 2016 we clearly had a top 8 list but we didn't strengthen it at the end of 2016 in fact we lost some depth and then proceeded to make minimal changes at the end of 2017.
If we didn't think we were a top 8 side going into this season then we should have made some more changes. Even if we knew we weren't a top 8 side it doesn't explain why we are performing so badly now.

I think the focus has moved to Bevo and the coaches because they are running out of excuses to explain the way we are losing.

[dog town]

After 2015 and 2016 we clearly had a top 8 list but we didn't strengthen it at the end of 2016 in fact we lost some depth and then proceeded to make minimal changes at the end of 2017.
If we didn't think we were a top 8 side going into this season then we should have made some more changes. Even if we knew we weren't a top 8 side it doesn't explain why we are performing so badly now.

I think the focus has moved to Bevo and the coaches because they are running out of excuses to explain the way we are losing. Do they need an excuse? We are about where we should be (maybe better) for the team and age profile we are putting out there. Hold them accountable for stupid decisions but you can’t expect them to perform a miracle.

Agree we have botched our list management. Key is understanding where we are at because it turns quickly and this coach doesn’t need the top ranked list. He just needs something to base a sustainable game plan around.

The key to list management or running a footy club as a whole is getting lots of little decisions right in a row. We have probably done the opposite so we just need some cool heads to sum it up and balance our list up a bit. Hopefully the CEO has already started this by nailing some key appointments.

[ReLoad]

I think the most frustrating part is we all know what we are capable of (the 1st quarter) then go back into that deplorable nonsense.

Yes that’s a result of kids playing, and we know there is some real gems amongst them, but our senior players are seriously stinking it up. JJ, Wood, hunter. The bont has a terrible night, etc.

We simply do not have a hard nut bash and crash midfielder (that’s fit) and it shows.

[Bullies]

I watched Footscray last week and Biggs was the player who should've got a game tonight. Smith was ok but did nothing that warranted an AFL call up. Bevo likes him obviously which is clouding his judgement if he sees Smith more worthy of a game before Biggs Jong and Wallis. You hit the nail on the head. Bevo likes Roarke for whatever reason. The opposite to Biggs. He is not in Bevo's plans as he would have been in the team last night. Not hard to see that Biggs and Dahl wont be at the club next year.

[merantau]

We can forget finals this year I'm afraid. At quarter time I felt great. During the second quarter I felt a cold coming on. At three quarter time I was collapsed in my chair and a match's end cerebral malaria was diagnosed by the specialist my wife called in. He's given me a week to turn it around.

[Sedat]

You hit the nail on the head. Bevo likes Roarke for whatever reason. The opposite to Biggs. He is not in Bevo's plans as he would have been in the team last night. Not hard to see that Biggs and Dahl wont be at the club next year.
Our problems are far bigger than picking Roarke over Biggs last night. I love Biggsy but he has stunk it up in the seniors this season.

[merantau]

We are facing multiple problems as has been outlined by many observers on this thread. So, the solutions are going to be multi-faceted. One thing that really disappointed me in the second half was the lack of fight. There were some half arsed efforts at times which I hate to see.
Grundy's absolute dominence in the ruck, and our lack of pace in the midfield were glaring. To score 2 legitimate points in a half of football! Well the bright side is - the only way is - UP!
I thought Trengove played his best game for us and Bailey Williams is having a good year. The usual handful of suspects tried hard. TOO much is being left to TOO few.
Hunter cops a lot of flak - a lot of it undeserved I think. His lack of goal kicking hurts But, apart from that I can't fault his endeavor.
Biggs should be in for Crozier who has shown little. Mitch Wallis should become an out and out tagger like Tony Liberators. You don't need an abundance of pace to upset some of these nancy boys.
If we don't show a massive turn around next week - I'm not expecting to win, btw - then the second half of the year could be a train wreck. This is the biggest test Bevo and the coaching panel have faced. Let's hope they can DO SOMETHING!
In reality we should have been beaten by 10 goals.

[Hotdog60]

I wonder if Jordan Roughead had done a groin or something. He come off (like most games) with some discomfort and he then had what look like some stern words from bevo on the phone and after that he was like a statue out there. In the ruck he didn't get off the ground and the chase to the pies goal to get the ball a tortoise would have out ran him.
My call is he will be out injured this week or an omission.

[Topdog]

That was a deplorable second half. One of the worst I've seen live. Some of the decision making, like Roarke leaving Stephenson to make sure Grundy couldn't play on 30m from our goal was just ridiculous

[Stefcep]

We are facing multiple problems as has been outlined by many observers on this thread. So, the solutions are going to be multi-faceted. One thing that really disappointed me in the second half was the lack of fight. There were some half arsed efforts at times which I hate to see.
Grundy's absolute dominence in the ruck, and our lack of pace in the midfield were glaring. To score 2 legitimate points in a half of football! Well the bright side is - the only way is - UP!
I thought Trengove played his best game for us and Bailey Williams is having a good year. The usual handful of suspects tried hard. TOO much is being left to TOO few.
Hunter cops a lot of flak - a lot of it undeserved I think. His lack of goal kicking hurts But, apart from that I can't fault his endeavor.
Biggs should be in for Crozier who has shown little. Mitch Wallis should become an out and out tagger like Tony Liberators. You don't need an abundance of pace to upset some of these nancy boys.
If we don't show a massive turn around next week - I'm not expecting to win, btw - then the second half of the year could be a train wreck. This is the biggest test Bevo and the coaching panel have faced. Let's hope they can DO SOMETHING!
In reality we should have been beaten by 10 goals.

Hunter is actually not copping enough flak. His kicking for goal has literally cost games because it typically comes after team mates have busted a gut to get the ball to him, and it comes at a critical juncture in the game, and his misses deflate the entire side.

At 90 plus games, "endeavour" is a given. He doesn't get to hide behind "i tried hard". He now gets judged on his output, not his effort. And his output is poor, irrespective of how often he touches the ball. Possession is irrelevant. What matters is effective possession. He doesn't provide nowhere enough of it.

[Stefcep]

Do they need an excuse? We are about where we should be (maybe better) for the team and age profile we are putting out there. Hold them accountable for stupid decisions but you can’t expect them to perform a miracle.

Agree we have botched our list management. Key is understanding where we are at because it turns quickly and this coach doesn’t need the top ranked list. He just needs something to base a sustainable game plan around.

The key to list management or running a footy club as a whole is getting lots of little decisions right in a row. We have probably done the opposite so we just need some cool heads to sum it up and balance our list up a bit. Hopefully the CEO has already started this by nailing some key appointments.

The age profile excuse doesn't apply to JJ Hunter Dahl.

[Remi Moses]

I think we’re entitled to be critical after last nights limp second half
Senior players,( and there are some) deserve to be heavily critiqued after last night .
As does the coaching group . Far to many have gone backwards since 2016 , and it’s time to ask questions .
It was insane what happened in 16, but let’s not turn the lights off and close the joint down

[bornadog]

I think the most frustrating part is we all know what we are capable of (the 1st quarter) then go back into that deplorable nonsense.

Yes that’s a result of kids playing, and we know there is some real gems amongst them, but our senior players are seriously stinking it up. JJ, Wood, hunter. The bont has a terrible night, etc.

We simply do not have a hard nut bash and crash midfielder (that’s fit) and it shows.

That first quarter showed we can play, but we just couldn't sustain it for the whole game. We really do miss Libba at the moment, and also need a fast paced midfielder who can kick long and straight.

[Grantysghost]

Cox fined for hit on JJ. Hmmm Redpath would've copped 3 for that .

[kruder]

After 2015 and 2016 we clearly had a top 8 list but we didn't strengthen it at the end of 2016 in fact we lost some depth and then proceeded to make minimal changes at the end of 2017.
If we didn't think we were a top 8 side going into this season then we should have made some more changes. Even if we knew we weren't a top 8 side it doesn't explain why we are performing so badly now.

I think the focus has moved to Bevo and the coaches because they are running out of excuses to explain the way we are losing.

You were all over it and vocal going into 2017 one of the few that saw it coming no doubt about it.

[Twodogs]

Cox fined for hit on JJ. Hmmm Redpath would've copped 3 for that .


And end up serving 5 weeks because we mucked up the appeal and couldn't read the rules properly.

[Eastdog]

That first quarter really good. Our forward line looked to be coming together. Dickson, Gowers, Roughy, Boyd were going good. Really great to be taking marks inside 50 which has always been a struggle for us.

The 2nd quarter the Pies came at us but we steadied which I took as a good sign and at half time was thinking we could keeping pushing on.

I was wrong 3rd quarter we turned to mush and kicked no goals and the final term much the same.

We played good for 2 quarters but couldn't sustain it for the whole game.

We need to learn how to play 4 quarters simple as that. Replicate what we did in the first quarter and we give ourselves a chance to win if not win comfortably.

[Eastdog]

I don't enjoy the next day after losing on the Friday night. 2 weeks in a row now. Went for a walk today as it was nice weather proudly wearing my Doggies jacket to recover from last night but still dissapointed.

[LostDoggy]

Our problems are far bigger than picking Roarke over Biggs last night. I love Biggsy but he has stunk it up in the seniors this season.

I agree with that. In career game #3 Smith had 13 possessions, 6 contested, 93% disposal efficiency, 5 marks, 1 contested and 4 tackles. In a backline under pressure, he was perfectly serviceable. I can't understand why people would single him out for criticism when way more experienced players than him put in less.

I don't know if he'll make a regular AFL player, but he seems a good size, good athlete, can ru mark and jump, contests and disposes well so I can see why they are keen to give him a shot. He has fought through a horrible run of injuries as well so he must have a bit of character about him.

By comparison Biggs was averaging 0.5 contested possessions and 0.5 tackles a game this year, which may be why he is out of favour.

[LostDoggy]

After 2015 and 2016 we clearly had a top 8 list but we didn't strengthen it at the end of 2016 in fact we lost some depth and then proceeded to make minimal changes at the end of 2017.
If we didn't think we were a top 8 side going into this season then we should have made some more changes. Even if we knew we weren't a top 8 side it doesn't explain why we are performing so badly now.

I think the focus has moved to Bevo and the coaches because they are running out of excuses to explain the way we are losing.

Agreed. Particularly with regard to the midfield.

When we blitzed the 2016 finals and won a flag on the back of a midfield of Libba 24, Dahlhaus 24, Wallis 24, Jong 23, Macrae 22, Hunter 21, Bont 20, Maclean 20, Daniel 20 and Dunkley 19, any history buff would say that is an exceptionally young premiership midfield group and that if anyone can hold that young group together then sustained competitiveness is surely guaranteed.

We have retained every one of those players and everyone of them, in terms of age profile, hould be as good or better now.

We have gone backwards fast with a young midfield group that should be doing much, much better. Something internally is very wrong.

[Twodogs]

I don't enjoy the next day after losing on the Friday night. 2 weeks in a row now. Went for a walk today as it was nice weather proudly wearing my Doggies jacket to recover from last night but still dissapointed.

Did you end up punching someone? I would of.


I agree with that. In career game #3 Smith had 13 possessions, 6 contested, 93% disposal efficiency, 5 marks, 1 contested and 4 tackles. In a backline under pressure, he was perfectly serviceable. I can't understand why people would single him out for criticism when way more experienced players than him put in less.

I don't know if he'll make a regular AFL player, but he seems a good size, good athlete, can ru mark and jump, contests and disposes well so I can see why they are keen to give him a shot. He has fought through a horrible run of injuries as well so he must have a bit of character about him.

By comparison Biggs was averaging 0.5 contested possessions and 0.5 tackles a game this year, which may be why he is out of favour.

The first couple of times I saw him last night I thought "hang on, where did Daniel Hargreaves come from?"

Roarke has played well at Footscray for a couple of weeks so I wasn't suprised to see him get promoted to the seniors. He did enough to justify his selection.

[bornadog]

4 of Collingwood's midfielders are averaging 27 disposals each this season. We really need to somehow ramp up our mids.

[Mantis]

4 of Collingwood's midfielders are averaging 27 disposals each this season. We really need to somehow ramp up our mids.

Why are we benchmarking ourselves against Collingwood?

West Coast have 1 mid averaging over 27 disposals & Richmond have zero.