Three things I've learned, edition X 2018 v Collingwood

[Twodogs]

We could ask for six things you know now that you didn't know before but we don't! All we require of you are three things.

Tell us three things you know now that you didn't know before.

[westdog54]

1. Schache and Trengove were solid acquisitions.
2. Our coaching group is in denial over our kicking issues.
3. It won't be this year, but Bailey Williams has the tools to be an All-Australian half-back. Fast becoming one of my favourite players to watch.

[bulldogtragic]

1. I learned I was wrong. JJ shouldn’t be played as the ‘high’ pressure forward, ever, ever again.
2. Happy with the curve of Trengove & Schache. Not so much Crozier at all.
3. For that period when Boyd, Schache, Dickson & Gowers (& Roughy resting forward) looked threatening we looked good. We need some high pressure small forwards to balance the profile. JJ is not it and Dahl can’t hit the side of the barn. Hopefully we persist with playing the first mentioned players.

[westbulldog]

1. Crozier and Dale are not contributing AT ALL.
2. Schache showed a bit and Richards continues to show promise.
3. Macrae looks frustrated trying to do everything on his own.

[Remi Moses]

1. Not sure why we recruited Crozier
2. Think we need some new eyes and ears in the coaches box at seasons end
3. Question why we show great resolve in the first half , and yet so limp in the second half .

[LostDoggy]

1.Happy with the set up of forward line having Boyd, Schache Dickson and Gower's there and worked well in 1st half. Need to persist with this
2.BIG question mark on Crosier as not sure if he has anything to give.
3. The only reason I can think why we had no run in second half is due to having so many young guys who need more preseason

[Bullies]

1.Happy with the set up of forward line having Boyd, Schache Dickson and Gower's there and worked well in 1st half. Need to persist with this
2.BIG question mark on Crosier as not sure if he has anything to give.
3. The only reason I can think why we had no run in second half is due to having so many young guys who need more preseason Unfortunately it was some of our experienced guys who threw the towel in - JJ should at least look like he is trying, Roughy if you are injured again give it away, Dicko didnt get a sniff in the second half, Dalhaus was woeful, Crozier was Crozier, Dale just not up to it, Daniel was ordinary, Wood was dreadful. these guys are some of our experienced players.

[bornadog]

1. Our midfield needs another A grader

2. Cordy was a big loss in the backline

3. Schache's kicking is impressive

[SlimPickens]

3. Schache's kicking is impressive

That dinky one to Dickson on the lead was superb.

[S Coast Simon]

We are to clever for our own good. Maybe play the boys where they became top grade players. Ie JJ running out of deference. Wood intercepting everything that comes into the back 50. Dahlhaus around the feet of the big forwards. Great a snapping goals, not a midfielder. Greatest example ever. Croad all aust CHB at hawks. Off to freo to make him FF only to fail and head back to the hawks for basically free. To become all Australian CHB again. Nice work freo. During hawthorns rein you new where their players would line up because they perfected their position so that’s where they played. A few players need to be able to swing around the field but not the whole team.

Your captain needs to lead his team. That means 110% commitment at all times. Wood is to busy trying to be nice to everyone. The captain needs a bit of mongrel about going for the ball. Cotchin is mr nice guy but if you get between him and the ball he will run through you to get it. And when someone knocks your teammate over. Get over there and pick him up give him a tap a say great effort son. then go give the prick a decent bump and let him know you will be looking out for him.

In 2016 if one of our boys was belted there would be five Doggies in their face. I remember Young going after Greene for the kick to the face. That is what we are lacking. Our genuine love for each other is not there at the moment. Boys are getting belted and left to get up and carry on. No remonstrations, no pat on the back “well done we got your back mate” “great effort for the team”. Until they get the love back they will struggle

[Dry Rot]

1. It is possible to score only 4 points in 2 quarters of footy

2. Roughhead is cooked

3. Having at least a capable ruckman is more than handy.

[Remi Moses]

1. Not to kick a goal in a half is insipid
2. Need new eyes and ears in the box
3. Our senior players are letting our club down

[Twodogs]

1. It is possible to score only 4 points in 2 quarters of footy.

That made me laugh but it would be a lot funnier if it happened to someone else.

[Sedat]

1. Suckers very happy with Crozier in the team - has lost whipping boy status overnight
2. I still have no ides what our best 22 looks like and I don't think the MC does either
3. World Cup will be a fantastic distraction in a few weeks' time

[EasternWest]

1. Suckers very happy with Crozier in the team - has lost whipping boy status overnight

Only to some.

[Sedat]

Only to some.
Over the course of a modest dollar 3 year contract, he has been sensational value. Would be on the podium in our B&F this year.

[EasternWest]

Over the course of a modest dollar 3 year contract, he has been sensational value. Would be on the podium in our B&F this year.

I think that says more about our year than him.

I expect more reliability from him when he doesn't have the ball. Every time I think about relenting he misses a costly tackle or shirks an important contest.

It's probably a higher standard I hold him to, but he's an experienced guy from a successful system, so I make no apology for it.

[Happy Days]

Over the course of a modest dollar 3 year contract, he has been sensational value. Would be on the podium in our B&F this year.

This is probably his best ever year isn't it? Has been a real shining light and would be at worst 3rd in our B&F.

Anyway:

1. Bailey Dale's skill level is neither high enough to compensate for his lack of core strength or as good as it looked late last season. This is the third time I've said this but he can't play next week.

2. JJ up the ground doesn't work - his kicking is worse under increased pressure, the lack of space in front of him doesn't allow him to use his speed, and it's hurting the side.

3. Dahlhaus and Gowers are better off trying to pinpoint passes (in spite of their substandard field kicking) and get someone else to take shots, rather than taking the kick themselves from any further out than 15m, at any angle. Given how laborious it's proven for us to even get the shots in the first place, having these guys do the "finishing" is just so morally depleting.

[SonofScray]

1. If you score more total points than the opposition in the allocated time for play, you claim a victory. It makes you and your kin feel good. Cures what ails you.

2. When you kick goals, you are happy. People around you are happy. Women want to be with you, men want to be you. You think to yourself, it'd be nice to do this more often.

3. Most teams you play against are capable of scoring more than one goal, on average, a quarter.

[Twodogs]

1. If you score more total points than the opposition in the allocated time for play, you claim a victory. It makes you and your kin feel good. Cures what ails you.

2. When you kick goals, you are happy. People around you are happy. Women want to be with you, men want to be you. You think to yourself, it'd be nice to do this more often.

3. Most teams you play against are capable of scoring more than one goal, on average, a quarter.


Yep, we are going to have to come up with a different plan. A plan that involves kicking more than 4 goals a game.

[Ozza]

Over the course of a modest dollar 3 year contract, he has been sensational value. Would be on the podium in our B&F this year.

Couldn't agree more. One of the only players taking calculated risks with the ball to move us forward quickly and open up the ground. Has been in our best most weeks, and that he is not on the leaderboard in the voting on this site says more about people's perceptions than anything else.

And makes very good defensive positioning decisions.

Watching from behind the goals on level 2 on Friday night, as frustrating as the night was, you get a good appreciation of how Wood and Suckling work out where they need to be, and who the most dangerous forward is in transition so quickly. The ball came in under so little pressure on Friday night after half time, that it was really only Wood and Suckling, and to an extent Trengove - that stopped it from being much worse.

[westdog54]

Couldn't agree more. One of the only players taking calculated risks with the ball to move us forward quickly and open up the ground. Has been in our best most weeks, and that he is not on the leaderboard in the voting on this site says more about people's perceptions than anything else.

And makes very good defensive positioning decisions.

Watching from behind the goals on level 2 on Friday night, as frustrating as the night was, you get a good appreciation of how Wood and Suckling work out where they need to be, and who the most dangerous forward is in transition so quickly. The ball came in under so little pressure on Friday night after half time, that it was really only Wood and Suckling, and to an extent Trengove - that stopped it from being much worse.

Suckling has made me backflip on him in the last month. He has been absolutely superb. He, along with Williams, seem to be the only ones trying on a regular basis to make something happen to get the ball moving.

Trengove is growing on me every week. He's had two superb defensive games in two consecutive beltings. As odd as that sounds we haven't given up massive scores in either game so these guys are doing what they can and more.

[soupman]

Suckling has made me backflip on him in the last month. He has been absolutely superb. He, along with Williams, seem to be the only ones trying on a regular basis to make something happen to get the ball moving.


I've gone against the grain somewhat and been a big fan of Suckling for basically the whole time he has been at the club.

Year one his first 8-9 round sbefore hurting his ankle (?) were fantastic. Couldn't believe how good he was. He struggled for form after that but was still serviceable.

2017 however was a year where the side largley looked unadventurous, unambitious and sometimes blatantly refused to try anything. Suckling throughout much of last year was frustrating in his inability to execute, but he was one of the few players that when he got the ball tried o force something to happen, and often was left stranded when his teammates failed to provide support or options for him. His kicking style is very odd and his decision making often surprising but I couldn't have been more impressed with his effort to try to keep us in or get us back into games when so many teammates seemed content to watch the opposition pull away.

This season his desperation seems to finally be getting some more appreciation from the wider fan base which is good, and really if he just finished his shots on goal which have been terrible he'd be comfortably our best player for the season excluding J. Macrae.

[bornadog]

I've gone against the grain somewhat and been a big fan of Suckling for basically the whole time he has been at the club.

Year one his first 8-9 round sbefore hurting his ankle (?) were fantastic. Couldn't believe how good he was. He struggled for form after that but was still serviceable.

2017 however was a year where the side largley looked unadventurous, unambitious and sometimes blatantly refused to try anything. Suckling throughout much of last year was frustrating in his inability to execute, but he was one of the few players that when he got the ball tried o force something to happen, and often was left stranded when his teammates failed to provide support or options for him. His kicking style is very odd and his decision making often surprising but I couldn't have been more impressed with his effort to try to keep us in or get us back into games when so many teammates seemed content to watch the opposition pull away.

This season his desperation seems to finally be getting some more appreciation from the wider fan base which is good, and really if he just finished his shots on goal which have been terrible he'd be comfortably our best player for the season excluding J. Macrae.

My only criticism of him is his one on one defending, which is woeful. His kicking on Friday night was some of the best long kicking I have ever seen.

[Twodogs]

Suckers is one of my favorite players just to sit and watch. If the game ain't so great I often watch just one player and Suckling plays really interesting football. He often stands 20-30 metres away from a contest and eventually the ball will squeeze out and roll to his feet. It's quite fun to sit and watch him do it.

[westdog54]

Had he been fit for the Prelim against GWS it would have made for an interesting selection dilemma. We ended up going tall against their forward line and rightly so, but would Suckling have played if fit?

[Twodogs]

Had he been fit for the Prelim against GWS it would have made for an interesting selection dilemma. We ended up going tall against their forward line and rightly so, but would Suckling have played if fit?

Who would he have come in for? Cordy or Biggs maybe?

[Mofra]

1. An older, stop-gap ruckman would help us immeasurably (until English is ready). Right now we might have the worst ruck division in the AFL.

2. Lipinski can become a midfielder, I was wrong.

3. We are desperately short on quality midfielders. Combined with our ruck issues, I don't see any quick fix for us.

[1eyedog]

1. An older, stop-gap ruckman would help us immeasurably (until English is ready). Right now we might have the worst ruck division in the AFL.

2. Lipinski can become a midfielder, I was wrong.

3. We are desperately short on quality midfielders. Combined with our ruck issues, I don't see any quick fix for us.

Tom Campbell?

I'm open to clearing out some of the riff-raff lower earners and throwing the sink at a classy mid.

[LostDoggy]

1. An older, stop-gap ruckman would help us immeasurably (until English is ready). Right now we might have the worst ruck division in the AFL.

2. Lipinski can become a midfielder, I was wrong.

3. We are desperately short on quality midfielders. Combined with our ruck issues, I don't see any quick fix for us.

The Ruck position is troubling. With Roughy, Boyd and Trengove in the team, of the 68 ball ups on Friday night, we had 0 hit outs to advantage, that is a truly damning statistic.

[bornadog]

The Ruck position is troubling. With Roughy, Boyd and Trengove in the team, of the 68 ball ups on Friday night, we had 0 hit outs to advantage, that is a truly damning statistic.

Trengove hasn't rucked for two weeks and is now playing in his best position. I hope we keep him at CHB.

Up until recently, we didn't need a tap ruckman as we were winning clearances, Centre clearances and stoppages. The last two weeks, we have lost these and the game, although against Collingwood, we didn't lose these by much (won centre clearances)

[westdog54]

Who would he have come in for? Cordy or Biggs maybe?

I'm just glad that decision didn't have to be made.

[Mofra]

The Ruck position is troubling. With Roughy, Boyd and Trengove in the team, of the 68 ball ups on Friday night, we had 0 hit outs to advantage, that is a truly damning statistic.
Interesting point made on the radio yesterday - who are the full time rucks at the Bulldogs?

We have one - English - developing who will rest forward, and Campbell who seems to have his papers stamped.

Roughy has been thrown around everywhere and plays forward a fair bit, ditto Boyd, Trengove spent pre-season there but has been sent back (where he played his best football with Port).

Perhaps football is changing as we're seeing with big KPFs on the endangered list but Grundy spends most of his time in the middle. Ditto Gawn, and they're the best two rucks in the comp. Witts, Nank, Goldy and Jacobs the obvious ones and they're rucks first, anything else second.

[Ozza]

If anything, the ruckman have become more important and more dominant this season.

If you've got a good one (there's only a handful out there) it is a big advantage.

The impact that NicNat, Gawn and Grundy have on their team is as big as I've seen from ruckman in a long time. Maybe decades.

[Mofra]

If anything, the ruckman have become more important and more dominant this season.

If you've got a good one (there's only a handful out there) it is a big advantage.

The impact that NicNat, Gawn and Grundy have on their team is as big as I've seen from ruckman in a long time. Maybe decades.
The changing rules have all fed into it - not just the third man up rule, but interchange caps have killed the second dedicated ruckman and you can't just plonk a big guy in the FP anymore, you get killed on the rebound.

In a way we're on trend by taking English, but we're behind until he's ready for regular football. I still think Tom Boyd is decent as a 2nd ruck but I don't rate him as a first ruck.

[comrade]

How can we have the worst ruck division AND (by far) the worst forward group?

The list has been woefully managed the past few years.

[bornadog]

How can we have the worst ruck division AND (by far) the worst forward group?

The list has been woefully managed the past few years.

How can you say that when we recruited English to boast our rucks. Roughead is a premiership ruckman, but has been injured on and off for two years. Campbell has been given every chance and we have been forced to try Boyd as first ruck?

What else could we have done?

[Sedat]

How can you say that when we recruited English to boast our rucks. Roughead is a premiership ruckman, but has been injured on and off for two years. Campbell has been given every chance and we have been forced to try Boyd as first ruck?

What else could we have done?
I think Comrade is referring to player development once they get to the club.

[bulldogtragic]

Well thank *!*!*!*!ing God missed out on Lobbe for pick 11. Media reports say we looked into at least Kruezer, Stef Martin & Nankervis but all knocked us back. And additionally we had an idiot rookie ruckman we had to sack/retire (yes, I can't even remember his name).

That plus signing Campbell, only to refuse playing him virtually the whole time. Then Rucking Boyd, Bonts, Jong, Dunkley etc.... None should be rucking either at all or anything like the time Boyd is depriving him of developing as a forward.

We rely on a continually injured Roughy to stay fit, and on a highly talented but young kid.

Our approach to this all is schizophrenic. I think this is a team effort from coach, tactics, match committee, recruiters and list manager. I hope Bains with some experience around all roles can remedy this.

[Twodogs]

Goetz was the ruckman's name. Luke I think.

[westdog54]

Goetz was the ruckman's name. Luke I think.

Correct. Sacked mid season because he wasn't up to being a professional footballer.

[azabob]

The worst part is Nathan Burke called this in 2016 about our list being average.

I guess we had the first laugh by winning the flag in 2016 & he is having the last laugh.

[GVGjr]

Correct. Sacked mid season because he wasn't up to being a professional footballer.

Low hanging fruit? I wonder if all players not living up to the required standards were put under a similar scrutiny.

Was he sacked? from memory he was sent to Footscray and told not to train with the Bulldogs for a decent period of time and he quickly decided to quit

[bornadog]

The worst part is Nathan Burke called this in 2016 about our list being average.

I guess we had the first laugh by winning the flag in 2016 & he is having the last laugh.

Why is he having a last laugh?

[GVGjr]

The worst part is Nathan Burke called this in 2016 about our list being average.

I guess we had the first laugh by winning the flag in 2016 & he is having the last laugh.

I think his comments were more about not having enough A graders than it being an average list?

I'm regularly reminded about his comments by a Saints following colleague. At the time I dismissed it but given the way we've played, the confusing drafting and list management approach, the way teams are selected and the output of a few of the players he might have seen something we were all blind to.

Here are some of his comments:

“The history of the Western Bulldogs Football Club tells me that they don’t have dynasties.

“It’s been the longest drought of any team making a Grand Final in the history of the game, they’ve got to seven preliminary finals and haven’t got to the Grand Final and then they’ve gone backwards"

“I know it’s a young list. It’s a list a little bit devoid of stars and marquee players who can carry them through for long periods of time like we’ve seen Hawthorn have,” he said on Fox Sports News.

“They’ve (Hawthorn) got their four or five outright stars, the Bulldogs don’t have that, they are just playing very well as a team.

“For me, to have that dynasty you need four or five stars to build around.”

St Kilda has suffered a similar finals and premiership drought since its sole flag in 1966, losing Grand Finals in 1971, 1997, 2009 and 2010 and winning nine wooden spoons.

A season and a half on from the flag and it's hard to argue that he got his assessment wrong. Dreams of it being a dynasty have been clearly answered in the negative. We've slipped back into using excuses to explain our current form.

They say some people can't handle Vegas, perhaps we can't handle success.

[westdog54]

Low hanging fruit? I wonder if all players not living up to the required standards were put under a similar scrutiny.

Was he sacked? from memory he was sent to Footscray and told not to train with the Bulldogs for a decent period of time and he quickly decided to quit

Its as close to being sacked as you become.

Maybe being a rookie made the decision easier for the club, but alternately a player who has the uncertainty of a rookie contract would want to be demonstrating work ethic and not putting a foot wrong off the track. They're basically trying to advertise themselves to be drafted to a senior list.

[Bullies]

I've gone against the grain somewhat and been a big fan of Suckling for basically the whole time he has been at the club.

Year one his first 8-9 round sbefore hurting his ankle (?) were fantastic. Couldn't believe how good he was. He struggled for form after that but was still serviceable.

2017 however was a year where the side largley looked unadventurous, unambitious and sometimes blatantly refused to try anything. Suckling throughout much of last year was frustrating in his inability to execute, but he was one of the few players that when he got the ball tried o force something to happen, and often was left stranded when his teammates failed to provide support or options for him. His kicking style is very odd and his decision making often surprising but I couldn't have been more impressed with his effort to try to keep us in or get us back into games when so many teammates seemed content to watch the opposition pull away.

This season his desperation seems to finally be getting some more appreciation from the wider fan base which is good, and really if he just finished his shots on goal which have been terrible he'd be comfortably our best player for the season excluding J. Macrae. Great call. He'll never be everyone's favorite but his positives far outweigh his negatives. Don't mind it when he has the ball on his left.

[Greystache]

I think his comments were more about not having enough A graders than it being an average list?

I'm regularly reminded about his comments by a Saints following colleague. At the time I dismissed it but given the way we've played, the confusing drafting and list management approach, the way teams are selected and the output of a few of the players he might have seen something we were all blind to.

Here are some of his comments:

“The history of the Western Bulldogs Football Club tells me that they don’t have dynasties.

“It’s been the longest drought of any team making a Grand Final in the history of the game, they’ve got to seven preliminary finals and haven’t got to the Grand Final and then they’ve gone backwards"

“I know it’s a young list. It’s a list a little bit devoid of stars and marquee players who can carry them through for long periods of time like we’ve seen Hawthorn have,” he said on Fox Sports News.

“They’ve (Hawthorn) got their four or five outright stars, the Bulldogs don’t have that, they are just playing very well as a team.

“For me, to have that dynasty you need four or five stars to build around.”

St Kilda has suffered a similar finals and premiership drought since its sole flag in 1966, losing Grand Finals in 1971, 1997, 2009 and 2010 and winning nine wooden spoons.

A season and a half on from the flag and it's hard to argue that he got his assessment wrong. Dreams of it being a dynasty have been clearly answered in the negative. We've slipped back into using excuses to explain our current form.

They say some people can't handle Vegas, perhaps we can't handle success.

He said this 2 weeks prior to us winning the flag. He also anointed GWS as the future dynasty club, who we knocked out in the prelim final 4 days later and following another meek effort in the prelim the following year have completely lost their way. So I wouldn't be too quick to laud Nathan for being an oracle.

The basis of his assessment for why we wouldn't have sustained success was we had no stars, whereas Bont, Macrae, McLean, JJ, Libba are star power enough, our drop off has come from not adequately replacing retiring players and players traded out, the stagnation (or in some cases the regression) of the core senior group, poor list management and in particular an obsession with recruiting players with poor kicking skills, and the bizarre and truly inexplicable decision to reinvent football with the view that the ability to convert even the simplest shots at goal was not important. None of these were considerations for how Burke came to his conclusion. To me it was a headline grabbing article from someone desperately trying to stay relevant.

[Twodogs]

Much as I hate the bastards I'd be really suprised if the plastics fall away and don't make a challenge this year.

[Greystache]

Much as I hate the bastards I'd be really suprised if the plastics fall away and don't make a challenge this year.

We'll see soon enough. They've lost their last 4 games, play Adelaide in Adelaide this week, and their supposed stars have shown a distinct lack of fight when the skiing isn't downhill. Add in the fact that their record at the MCG is at best pathetic and they're hardly the dynasty that many predicted.

[Twodogs]

We'll see soon enough. They've lost their last 4 games, play Adelaide in Adelaide this week, and their supposed stars have shown a distinct lack of fight when the skiing isn't downhill. Add in the fact that their record at the MCG is at best pathetic and they're hardly the dynasty that many predicted.


Oh, plenty to look forward to then. I always suspected they were just a bunch of softcocks but I'm suprised at just how little grunt there is when you peel a layer or two off.

I think BT might be right. It's a good time to target some of their players to see if they are interested in playing for a proper footy club.

[Mofra]

Oh, plenty to look forward to then. I always suspected they were just a bunch of softcocks but I'm suprised at just how little grunt there is when you peel a layer or two off.

I think BT might be right. It's a good time to target some of their players to see if they are interested in playing for a proper footy club.
Delidio has been playing good football for them this year and now he's out for 10 weeks.

Patton is horribly out of form and Lobb isn't doing much at the moment.

[Twodogs]

Delidio has been playing good football for them this year and now he's out for 10 weeks.

Patton is horribly out of form and Lobb isn't doing much at the moment.

I can't recall a player regressing as much as Patton has. It's like his development has been left up to us.

[Mofra]

I can't recall a player regressing as much as Patton has. It's like his development has been left up to us.
We finally get to look at Tom Boyd and think "we got their best no 1 draft pick".

[Ozza]

We finally get to look at Tom Boyd and think "we got their best no 1 draft pick".

Pretty sure Lachie Whitfield was a no.1 pick....

[Greystache]

Pretty sure Lachie Whitfield was a no.1 pick....

Do you rate him?

[1eyedog]

Do you rate him?

I do as an attacking player in a good team. He would be one of the worst players on a list if he had to actually work hard in a mediocre team.

He's like a pavlova. Looks good and tastes good but is essentially soft and you quickly become sick of it and at the end you just feel cheated by it.

[Ozza]

Do you rate him?

Yes. Good footballer.

Certainly ahead of Tom Boyd and Jon Patton - that much is quite obvious.

[Greystache]

Yes. Good footballer.

Certainly ahead of Tom Boyd and Jon Patton - that much is quite obvious.

Fair enough. I think he's limited and his upside is minimal. He's ok cream, but I'd have been happy taking him in a 2nd ot 3rd round pick like Caleb Daniel, I'd certainly wouldn't classify him as a pick 1 success story.


I do as an attacking player in a good team. He would be one of the worst players on a list if he had to actually work hard in a mediocre team.

He's like a pavlova. Looks good and tastes good but is essentially soft and you quickly become sick of it and at the end you just feel cheated by it.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on him.

[Ozza]

Fair enough. I think he's limited and his upside is minimal. He's ok cream, but I'd have been happy taking him in a 2nd ot 3rd round pick like Caleb Daniel, I'd certainly wouldn't classify him as a pick 1 success story.


Probably depends on the definition of a pick 1 success story. If a success story is 'top 5' or even 'top 10' players in the league - then its a 'no' to him being a success. If playing 200+ games is a measure, then he will do at least that barring serious injury - he is already at 100 games, so 250+ or even 300 games is within reach - which is a good investment of your 1st pick.

My original comment was in reference to a post that 'we have the better no.1 pick than GWS' do to Boyd 'maybe' (highly subjective) being better than Jon Patton - and I was highlighting that GWS is better than both anyway.

But on Whitfield, I think he is definitely a quality player. Clean hands, beautiful user of the ball, good pace and sees the game well. The stats reflect that if he isn't the hardest worker in the league both ways - then he is certainly in the top handful. Has had an excellent first 100 games, and at 23, likely hasn't reached his ceiling.

[Ozza]

I do as an attacking player in a good team. He would be one of the worst players on a list if he had to actually work hard in a mediocre team.

He's like a pavlova. Looks good and tastes good but is essentially soft and you quickly become sick of it and at the end you just feel cheated by it.

Actually had to work hard in a mediocre team!!??!!
He is currently playing in a mediocre team - and does between 15-17km's every week.

[Sedat]

Whitfield is a nice player. Would love his skills in our team. He's certainly better than O'Rourke and Plowman who were taken immediately after him.

[Greystache]

Probably depends on the definition of a pick 1 success story. If a success story is 'top 5' or even 'top 10' players in the league - then its a 'no' to him being a success. If playing 200+ games is a measure, then he will do at least that barring serious injury - he is already at 100 games, so 250+ or even 300 games is within reach - which is a good investment of your 1st pick.

My original comment was in reference to a post that 'we have the better no.1 pick than GWS' do to Boyd 'maybe' (highly subjective) being better than Jon Patton - and I was highlighting that GWS is better than both anyway.

But on Whitfield, I think he is definitely a quality player. Clean hands, beautiful user of the ball, good pace and sees the game well. The stats reflect that if he isn't the hardest worker in the league both ways - then he is certainly in the top handful. Has had an excellent first 100 games, and at 23, likely hasn't reached his ceiling.

They do? He averages 2.6 tackles a game for his career, and 3.5 this season as a permanent midfielder. Jack Macrae from the same draft averages 6.5 while racking up far more disposals and I'd hardly consider Macrae a defensive animal. I'd call Whitfield an outside receiver with questionable defensive intent.

[Greystache]

Whitfield is a nice player. Would love his skills in our team. He's certainly better than O'Rourke and Plowman who were taken immediately after him.

And Toumpas!

He may even go past Stringer at pick 5 if he continues his recent decline. He's a long way short of pick 6 however!

[Sedat]

I'd call Whitfield an outside receiver with questionable defensive intent.
That's a fair assessment. Isaac Smith and Andrew Gaff are similar types so he does have an important skill set, if not the hurt factor or the consistency.

He's a beautiful kick and has elite endurance - is clearly an AFL standard player but you'd like more inpact from him for his assets. He should be racking up metres gained numbers on par with the others mentioned as well as Seedsman.

[Ozza]

They do? He averages 2.6 tackles a game for his career, and 3.5 this season as a permanent midfielder. Jack Macrae from the same draft averages 6.5 while racking up far more disposals and I'd hardly consider Macrae a defensive animal. I'd call Whitfield an outside receiver with questionable defensive intent.

Tackle count is amongst the laziest of analyses available and I'm sure you knew my comment was referring to work rate (ie. two-way running) rather than tackles.

If I go into the specifics of the Macrae/Whitfield comparison - then the intent of the original discussion goes off course, because of course I rate Macrae higher than Whitfield. But at the risk of doing that, you just can't compare the tackle numbers of an inside mid to a half back/winger, because those regularly attending the stoppages (and repeat stoppages) have countless opportunities to get their tackle stats up.

[1eyedog]

Actually had to work hard in a mediocre team!!??!!
He is currently playing in a mediocre team - and does between 15-17km's every week.

Only the last month. He doesn't do enough team orientated things. Is easily intimidated, pushed of the ball, and as alluded to above has a low tackle count. I don't think he's overly quick but the bugger can run all day.
He's a good player and I see him as cream as well. Goes missing when it gets tough. Expect more from a number 1 but he has time on his side.

[bornadog]

Only the last month. He doesn't do enough team orientated things. Is easily intimidated, pushed of the ball, and as alluded to above has a low tackle count. I don't think he's overly quick but the bugger can run all day.
He's a good player and I see him as cream as well. Goes missing when it gets tough. Expect more from a number 1 but he has time on his side.

I would love to have him, as he is the sort of player we don't have.

[Ozza]

That's a fair assessment. Isaac Smith and Andrew Gaff are similar types so he does have an important skill set, if not the hurt factor or the consistency.

He's a beautiful kick and has elite endurance - is clearly an AFL standard player but you'd like more inpact from him for his assets. He should be racking up metres gained numbers on par with the others mentioned as well as Seedsman.

Well Seedsman is leading the league, so nobody can match him in this area at the moment.
But Whitfield is in the top 30 in the league for metres gained, and is only 50 metres behind Isaac Smith, and is ahead of Gaff despite far less disposals - so I think he is doing dine in this regard with an average of 400m gained per game.

[Greystache]

Tackle count is amongst the laziest of analyses available and I'm sure you knew my comment was referring to work rate (ie. two-way running) rather than tackles.

If I go into the specifics of the Macrae/Whitfield comparison - then the intent of the original discussion goes off course, because of course I rate Macrae higher than Whitfield. But at the risk of doing that, you just can't compare the tackle numbers of an inside mid to a half back/winger, because those regularly attending the stoppages (and repeat stoppages) have countless opportunities to get their tackle stats up.

I would consider tackling a very clear measure of hard work defensively, his is poor. Merely saying look this guy runs a long way is even lazier analysis of two way effort. Whitfield runs hard when there's a chance to receive the ball, nothing I've seen from him would suggest he has anything like the same work rate when GWS don't have the footy. I'd would call him below average defensively, certainly nothing like being one of the better examples in the league. He's symptomatic of why GWS are battling, everything is on their own terms.

[Mantis]

Well Seedsman is leading the league, so nobody can match him in this area at the moment.
But Whitfield is in the top 30 in the league for metres gained, and is only 50 metres behind Isaac Smith, and is ahead of Gaff despite far less disposals - so I think he is doing dine in this regard with an average of 400m gained per game.

Where does our best metres gained player 'JJ' sit in these rankings?

All good and well to shit-can Whitfield who is having a pretty decent season, but our gun outside runner is player like a rookie and not someone who signed a 5- year contract on a reported $600k per year - and held out in doing so.

[Greystache]

That's a fair assessment. Isaac Smith and Andrew Gaff are similar types so he does have an important skill set, if not the hurt factor or the consistency.

He's a beautiful kick and has elite endurance - is clearly an AFL standard player but you'd like more inpact from him for his assets. He should be racking up metres gained numbers on par with the others mentioned as well as Seedsman.

Smith also kicks far more goals, 15 this season already. Whitfield's an 8-10 goal a season type player.

[Greystache]

Where does our best metres gained player 'JJ' sit in these rankings?

All good and well to shit-can Whitfield who is having a pretty decent season, but our gun outside runner is player like a rookie and not someone who signed a 5- year contract on a reported $600k per year - and held out in doing so.

74th in the league. 322m per game, 75m less than Whitfield. I'd say JJ is having a stinker of a season.

Bailey Williams is averaging 405m per game off half back.

[bornadog]

Where does our best metres gained player 'JJ' sit in these rankings?

All good and well to shit-can Whitfield who is having a pretty decent season, but our gun outside runner is player like a rookie and not someone who signed a 5- year contract on a reported $600k per year - and held out in doing so.

He has been stuck playing in the forward 50, with Bevo trying to find a player to kick goals, but that is failing too.

[Twodogs]

Serious question. Is the meterage estimated by stats guys or is it counted more precisly with GPS or something like that?

[bornadog]

Serious question. Is the meterage estimated by stats guys or is it counted more precisly with GPS or something like that?
Pretty sure GPS

[Twodogs]

Pretty sure GPS

Thanks mate, I thought it would be.

[Mofra]

Pretty sure GPS
Most teams have the GPS in training jumpers to manage training loads as well. Everything is micro-managed to the nth degree.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I can't recall a player regressing as much as Patton has. It's like his development has been left up to us.
Ouch. But funny.