Always Right Match Committee - Round 17, 2018 vs Melbourne

[Eastdog]

Welcome to the Always Right Match Committee Thread. This has been named after a long time WOOF member who tragically passed away in March 2018.

Always Right (https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?17881-Vale-always-right)

If you were on the Western Bulldogs match committee what changes would you make for our round 17, 2018 match against Melbourne at the MCG?

As always a brief explanation for your changes would add a lot of value to the discussion.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[bulldogtragic]

In

Greene (someone who can kick goals)
English (or another ruck, Boyd will get ripped a part against Gawn by himself with Cordy helping. Hoping in vein.)

Out

Biggs (trade or delisted from here. Enough)
Naughton (injured)

[GVGjr]

Macrae will be back.

[bulldogtragic]

Macrae will be back.

Lipinski rested.

[bornadog]

I can’t really recommend anyone from the VFL

[GVGjr]

Macrae and Young in
Smith and Naughton out
I'll have a rethink shortly

[DOG GOD]

In - macrae, Campbell and Greene
Out- lipinski, naughton and Biggs

[westbulldog]

In
Macrae, Young, Campbell

I haven't seen Greene but some woofers think he is worth a go , if so then Greene for Lipinski or Daniel

Out
Biggs (trade/delist) , Naughton, Smith (on the cusp of a delist imo)

[Twodogs]

In J. Macrae, A. Ruckman, F. Greene
Out A. Naughton, P. Lipinski, R. Smith.

I'm not 100% sold on dropping Smith, there's the side of the equation where he's an ordinary footballer with lots of limitations but by gee he has a dip and his game last night was the best I've seen from. him. Biggs is next in the gun and I'm looking for positives from his game last night, he had a couple of shots on goal that he shanked (played the Honeychurch role perfectly)but the fact he had a couple is the positive. It's getting to the point where we are drooping/retaining players who are the least worst rather than on merit. That can't be good.

[Go_Dogs]

Out: Naughton, Lipinski
In: Young, Macrae

[Rocket Science]

Out : the rabble that played last night's second half
In : the mob that played last night's first half

Not sure whether that a joke or a reasonably accurate summation of how we're going.

[bornadog]

Out : the rabble that played last night's second half
In : the mob that played last night's first half

Not sure whether that a joke or a reasonably accurate summation of how we're going.

What is our solution for centre clearances?

I would bring in Campbell to Ruck, and Boyd replaces Naughton in the forward line.

[Rocket Science]

What is our solution for centre clearances?

I would bring in Campbell to Ruck, and Boyd replaces Naughton in the forward line.

It's the million dollar question right now isn't it?

Injury and inexperience means our hands are tied for the most part. Good thing everyone's so 'versatile'.

Is Campbell crying out for a shot? Probably not but I'd rather he wore an afternoon of Gawn's knees than Boyd. I suspect the outcome would be roughly the same for us.

On Boyd, I get he's trying hard in a pretty tough gig, and in a side that's struggling mightily to boot, but I've never been less enthused about his prospects to be a difference maker for us.

He doesn't look mobile nor nearly fit enough for the role we're shoehorning him into. Maybe that'll come ... His tap work is spotty and fair at best. His ground work is likewise. Neither quality provided with the sort of calibre a grunt like Campbell couldn't give us anyway.
Why have we got our big ticket tall flailing around the bottom of packs to stuff all effect? Maybe that's because he can't bloody catch it in the air, but that's a story for another time.

I honestly don't know how best to structure up against Melbourne's mids.

Of our core, the Bont is buggered, McLean trying hard but increasingly overworked, Wally will try his guts out but needs better outside support, Dunkley same, give him another job? Then we're down to cameos from the likes of Richards, Lipinski & Gowers.

In this state I fear the other pricks will just use us for the sort of soft-target tune-up they love.

Unless we get a few back soon I still maintain we'll struggle to win another one for the year. Thank god we're fixtured against the Blues at some point.

[chef]

Did Boyd take a mark last night?

[Rocket Science]

Did Boyd take a mark last night?

He and Zaine were the only two on the park in our colours who didn't.

Maybe it's the curse of the ruck.

[chef]

Surely he wasnt this terrible at marking at TAC level, what the hell has happened to him?

[bornadog]

Unless we get a few back soon I still maintain we'll struggle to win another one for the year. Thank god we're fixtured against the Blues at some point.

I am not even confident we could win that one.

[Rocket Science]

Surely he wasnt this terrible at marking at TAC level, what the hell has happened to him?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDCfgCyq11w

Here's a look, although a lot of those grabs taken against opponents who at that age level couldn't match him for size and reach, unlike the big league.

Maybe his timing and touch is off because he's stuffed half the time. Maybe his eyesight's deteriorated. Maybe we just don't advantage him with our kicking which we're loath to do for anyone really. Who knows? But every time those flat mitts go up in a pack I can't help anticipate watching the ball smack straight off them again.

We could surround him with crumbers, but we don't have any, or any that can kick the thing properly.

[chef]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDCfgCyq11w

Here's a look, although a lot of those grabs taken against opponents who at that age level couldn't match him for size and reach, unlike the big league.

Maybe his timing and touch is off because he's stuffed half the time. Maybe his eyesight's deteriorated. Maybe we just don't advantage him with our kicking which we're loath to do for anyone really. Who knows? But every time those flat mitts go up in a pack I can't help anticipate watching the ball smack straight off them again.

We could surround him with crumbers, but we don't have any, or any that can kick the thing properly.

Its amazing how much his marking ability has deteriorated. There was some nice clean grabs in that vid.

[bulldogtragic]

Its amazing how much his marking ability has deteriorated. There was some nice clean grabs in that vid.

Amazing too that his goal kicking accuracy has dropped from nearly 70% before we made him a ruckman to under 60% now. It's as if our coaching of him has not been helpful to him in pretty much all facets of his game. Plus making him go solo on guys like Golstein & McEvoy is fast tracking his new rucking career too... It's hard not to feel that the training, education and coaching he's been getting hasn't been much good. And the match committee making him ruck solo ain't helping him either. Just really disappointing to get a kid like him, with the natural talent he has, but then stuff it all up.

[chef]

Amazing too that his goal kicking accuracy has dropped from nearly 70% before we made him a ruckman to under 60% now. It's as if our coaching of him has not been helpful to him in pretty much all facets of his game. Plus making him go solo on guys like Golstein & McEvoy is fast tracking his new rucking career too... It's hard not to feel that the training, education and coaching he's been getting hasn't been much good. And the match committee making him ruck solo ain't helping him either. Just really disappointing to get a kid like him, with the natural talent he has, but then stuff it all up.

Yep. Weve been desperate for someone like this and weve pretty much *!*!*!*!ed it up.

As the seasons stuffed i wish we'd just play him at FF for the rest of the year and give him a shot. But it aint happening.

[Twodogs]

I wonder how Kelvin Templeton would have gone if we'd insisted on playing him in the ruck in order to, umm, err, actually I've completely forgotten why we are playing Tom Boyd on the ruck, it can't be because he was such a massive disappointment at full forward because I can't remember us playing him there for longer than a half a game. Simon Beasley kicked kicked 23 goals in his first 11 VFL games. If we had panicked and moved him to CHB halfway through the year then he wouldn't have kicked 59 goals in his next 10 games to finish with 82 for the year, and he wouldn't have become the player to kick more goals in the 1980s than any other player.

FFS let's have a bit of patience, switch of the idea machine (it's coming up with stupid ideas anyway) and go back to a traditional footy team without the full forward playing in the ruck. After all we went with a proper defence a few weeks ago and that worked really well. Let's just put Tom in the goal square and leave him there for the rest of the season. What have we got to lose?

[Greystache]

Amazing too that his goal kicking accuracy has dropped from nearly 70% before we made him a ruckman to under 60% now. It's as if our coaching of him has not been helpful to him in pretty much all facets of his game. Plus making him go solo on guys like Golstein & McEvoy is fast tracking his new rucking career too... It's hard not to feel that the training, education and coaching he's been getting hasn't been much good. And the match committee making him ruck solo ain't helping him either. Just really disappointing to get a kid like him, with the natural talent he has, but then stuff it all up.

You have to wonder how it can possibly be that bringing players into a full time professional environment can make them worse players. Look at Boyd, his marking and kicking are dramatically worse than before he got to the club.

It's not just Boyd either, so many players fundamental skills are getting worse each season. Goal kicking being the most obvious example but look at the field kicking of guys like Hunter and Dahlahus. What if anything do we focus on at training? :confused:

[bulldogtragic]

You have to wonder how it can possibly be that bringing players into a full time professional environment can make them worse players. Look at Boyd, his marking and kicking are dramatically worse than before he got to the club.

It's not just Boyd either, so many players fundamental skills are getting worse each season. Goal kicking being the most obvious example but look at the field kicking of guys like Hunter and Dahlahus. What if anything do we focus on at training? :confused:

This might be the post in 11 years I've agreed with most. Ever. The answer to turning the onfield performances around lie in uncovering why the points/questions you raise are embedded in our system. But I'm not sure there's someone at the club brave enough to get to the bottom of it. I hope I'm wrong though.

[bornadog]

This might be the post in 11 years I've agreed with most. Ever. The answer to turning the onfield performances around lie in uncovering why the points/questions you raise are embedded in our system. But I'm not sure there's someone at the club brave enough to get to the bottom of it. I hope I'm wrong though.

Tell me which players have gone backwards in their kicking? Dahl was already a bad kick.

Last night there were 10 players with less than 50 games, 8 less than 100 and 3 over 150. In others words we weren't very experienced, and the Hawks tackled and pressured us and we folded.

We have some very good kicks in the team, but some players panick under pressure.

[bulldogtragic]

Tell me which players have gone backwards in their kicking? Dahl was already a bad kick.

Last night there were 10 players with less than 50 games, 8 less than 100 and 3 over 150. In others words we weren't very experienced, and the Hawks tackled and pressured is, and we folded.

We have some very good kicks in the team, but some players panick under pressure.

1. Suckling: Same
2. Young: Not seen much of
3. Wallis: Misses some easy hit up kicks you'd like to see him regularly hit. Not our worse though.
4. Bonts: Used to mark him down when kicking for goal. Not anymore.
5. Dunkley: Not sure if he's gone backwards, but his kicking is poor.
6. Dahl: Never a great kick. But now gone backwards further.
7. Hunter: Better last night, but this year his dinky kick and decision making around kicking has taken his game backwards.
8. Trengove: Not long enough with us to judge.
9. Crozier: As above.
10. Wood: Seemed to go backwards somewhat.
11. Macrae: Gun and getting better, but still has the tendency to kick up and under going forward. But he's a gun.
12. Cordy: Looks ugly, but I think about the same.
13. Schache: See Trengove, but a lovely kick.
14. Smith: Not sighted this year, but never really overcame poor kicking as a knock on his game.
15. Campbell: Is he still on our list?
16. McLean: Improving. Next.
17. Boyd: Was going at 70% goal accuracy before we 'rucked him over'. Now under 60%. That's a huge drop off in goal kicking.
18. Roberts: Is also still on our list?
19. Webb: Was a great kick as a half backer. He's lost his kicking strengthes for sure.
20. Richards: Fine.
21. Libba: N/A
22. Honeychurch: Gone backwards
23. Roughead: Not getting better.
24. Biggs: Gone backwards, including in kicking.
25. Adams: Haven't seen enough to declare it, but his kicking doesn't appear as strong.
26. Gowers: Set shot kicking is very, very poor. But on the run and midfield seems good.
27. Lipinski: Couldnt miss a goal early, missed the last many attempts. But ahead overall.
28. Porter: Not enough see.
29. Dickson: Barely seen this year.
30. Greene: Not enough seen.
31. Dale: Seems to have regressed is his kicking.
32. Collins: Not enough seen.
33. Naughton: Looks OK early.
34. Williams: Better.
35. Daniel: Seems to not be as reliable a kick as previous years.
36. Lynch: Not enough exposure at the level.
37. Smith: Turns it over by foot far too often for me.
38. Morris: Same same.
39. JJ: Seems to have turned the ball over by foot very regularly this year.
40. NMM: Not enough seen.
42. Picken: N/A
43. Redpath: N/A
44. English: Better
46. Jong: Still not a strength


We still lead the comp for goal kicking inaccuracy I believe. That's a major kicking problem. And we have way too many unforced turnovers by foot for my liking. Guys on the fringe aren't improving or getting worse as above, while Hunter & Dahl as senior leaders have gone backwards by and large. The game last night simply showed one team with superb kicking skills, and another with poorer kicking skills. But the problem is wider than the 22 that played and opens up legitimate questions about what the players are being instructed to do and the competency of the skills coaching they're getting, which was the exchange between Grey and myself, not about simply games played as an excuse as to why previously good field kicks and previously good goal kicks are now not.

[GVGjr]

Thanks BT, asked and answered.

[Mofra]

Tell me which players have gone backwards in their kicking? Dahl was already a bad kick.
Tom Boyd kicking for goal.
Dahl's disposal is worse this year than at any point in his career (and as you pointed out, it was already an area of concern).
Bonti this year (hip impact?)
Hunter
Daniel
Bailey Dale

A few seem to have gotten worse.
When I try and think of who has improved - Aaron Naughton seems to have cleaned up his ball drop and Roughy's kicking for goal this year was much better than past years. Maybe Dunkley has improved as well a little. It's a short list.

[mjp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDCfgCyq11w

Here's a look, although a lot of those grabs taken against opponents who at that age level couldn't match him for size and reach, unlike the big league.

Maybe his timing and touch is off because he's stuffed half the time. Maybe his eyesight's deteriorated. Maybe we just don't advantage him with our kicking which we're loath to do for anyone really. Who knows? But every time those flat mitts go up in a pack I can't help anticipate watching the ball smack straight off them again.

We could surround him with crumbers, but we don't have any, or any that can kick the thing properly.
When he played against us in the champs he kicked 5 in the first q before hurting his ankle. Playing against two players (Barrass and Alir) who became competent afl key position defenders. He was taking contested / pack marks and kicking Long goals. VM were 5 goals up at q time and I think we only lost by a kick.

By far the best player in that draft at the time of the draft.

[bulldogtragic]

When he played against us in the champs he kicked 5 in the first q before hurting his ankle. Playing against two players (Barrass and Alir) who became competent afl key position defenders. He was taking contested / pack marks and kicking Long goals. VM were 5 goals up at q time and I think we only lost by a kick.

By far the best player in that draft at the time of the draft.

Any ideas why we (club/Tom) find ourselves in the current situation?

[mjp]

You have to wonder how it can possibly be that bringing players into a full time professional environment can make them worse players. Look at Boyd, his marking and kicking are dramatically worse than before he got to the club.

It's not just Boyd either, so many players fundamental skills are getting worse each season. Goal kicking being the most obvious example but look at the field kicking of guys like Hunter and Dahlahus. What if anything do we focus on at training? :confused:

Well, they basically never train during the season...so there’s that...

[Greystache]

Well, they basically never train during the season...so there’s that...

It makes you wonder where football is going and how bad the standard will be in 10 years. It's barely watchable now.

[Happy Days]

Can't help but notice all of those marks are taken inside 50.

[LostDoggy]

Tell me which players have gone backwards in their kicking? Dahl was already a bad kick.

Last night there were 10 players with less than 50 games, 8 less than 100 and 3 over 150. In others words we weren't very experienced, and the Hawks tackled and pressured us and we folded.

We have some very good kicks in the team, but some players panick under pressure.

Yes, a very young and very inexperienced list, far more so than the teams below us. Must put pressure on the whole team, amazing that we were able to put in the game we did against the kitties.


1. Suckling: Same
2. Young: Not seen much of
3. Wallis: Misses some easy hit up kicks you'd like to see him regularly hit. Not our worse though.
4. Bonts: Used to mark him down when kicking for goal. Not anymore.
5. Dunkley: Not sure if he's gone backwards, but his kicking is poor.
6. Dahl: Never a great kick. But now gone backwards further.
7. Hunter: Better last night, but this year his dinky kick and decision making around kicking has taken his game backwards.
8. Trengove: Not long enough with us to judge.
9. Crozier: As above.
10. Wood: Seemed to go backwards somewhat.
11. Macrae: Gun and getting better, but still has the tendency to kick up and under going forward. But he's a gun.
12. Cordy: Looks ugly, but I think about the same.
13. Schache: See Trengove, but a lovely kick.
14. Smith: Not sighted this year, but never really overcame poor kicking as a knock on his game.
15. Campbell: Is he still on our list?
16. McLean: Improving. Next.
17. Boyd: Was going at 70% goal accuracy before we 'rucked him over'. Now under 60%. That's a huge drop off in goal kicking.
18. Roberts: Is also still on our list?
19. Webb: Was a great kick as a half backer. He's lost his kicking strengthes for sure.
20. Richards: Fine.
21. Libba: N/A
22. Honeychurch: Gone backwards
23. Roughead: Not getting better.
24. Biggs: Gone backwards, including in kicking.
25. Adams: Haven't seen enough to declare it, but his kicking doesn't appear as strong.
26. Gowers: Set shot kicking is very, very poor. But on the run and midfield seems good.
27. Lipinski: Couldnt miss a goal early, missed the last many attempts. But ahead overall.
28. Porter: Not enough see.
29. Dickson: Barely seen this year.
30. Greene: Not enough seen.
31. Dale: Seems to have regressed is his kicking.
32. Collins: Not enough seen.
33. Naughton: Looks OK early.
34. Williams: Better.
35. Daniel: Seems to not be as reliable a kick as previous years.
36. Lynch: Not enough exposure at the level.
37. Smith: Turns it over by foot far too often for me.
38. Morris: Same same.
39. JJ: Seems to have turned the ball over by foot very regularly this year.
40. NMM: Not enough seen.
42. Picken: N/A
43. Redpath: N/A
44. English: Better
46. Jong: Still not a strength


We still lead the comp for goal kicking inaccuracy I believe. That's a major kicking problem. And we have way too many unforced turnovers by foot for my liking. Guys on the fringe aren't improving or getting worse as above, while Hunter & Dahl as senior leaders have gone backwards by and large. The game last night simply showed one team with superb kicking skills, and another with poorer kicking skills. But the problem is wider than the 22 that played and opens up legitimate questions about what the players are being instructed to do and the competency of the skills coaching they're getting, which was the exchange between Grey and myself, not about simply games played as an excuse as to why previously good field kicks and previously good goal kicks are now not.

That’s a long list including many players who have not gotten worse or have improved.
I’ll only list the ones that have actually moved or where I would like to add to your comments.

Gowers has improved recently.
Macrae has improved.
Bont has been missing set shots for a long time. Many misses in 2016 ( nailed some beauties too). May be injured and certainly missing some assistance.
Dunks has always been poor
Dahl as above
Hunter always fluctuates
Wood seems to have gone down marginally but was never super reliable
C Smith’s later work was better than his earlier kicking
Boyd has gone down but he is playing ruck not stay at home forward, makes sense.
Webb I don’t think there is enough evidence to make a call at afl level
Honeychurch has always been poor
Biggs has fallen off his entire game including kicking. Heart issue.
Adams hasn’t changed
Lipinski not enough evidence
Dale agree, not sure what has happened here, was bullish for him this season
Daniel seems to have dropped off this season, one of our family favourites
R Smith has always been the same at afl level
JJ like hunter has always fluctuated, hit the chest of many Sydney players in the GF
Jong same as always

So of the list I’d only really include Dale and Daniel. Hardly comprehensive to prove we are training guys out of kicking form.
We do have a problem but I think it is more draft related. However, I’d welcome training changes to help in this area. Would be nice to be like the hawks or the 2009 bulldogs.

On Boyd, I’d love to see him as a successful full forward but also warming to the notion of having a Grundy like ruck in our team.

[bornadog]

Thanks BT, asked and answered.

But not necessarily agreed. It will take some time to respond, and I don't have the time right now.

Overall, I think we have recruited some excellent kicks in the last few drafts. Naughton, Richards are good kicks, Crozier has a magnificent booming kick, Trengove can kick a ball, Schache is excellent.

More to come.

[Mantis]

But not necessarily agreed. It will take some time to respond, and I don't have the time right now.

Overall, I think we have recruited some excellent kicks in the last few drafts. Naughton, Richards are good kicks, Crozier has a magnificent booming kick, Trengove can kick a ball, Schache is excellent.

More to come.

Crozier might kick it long, but is he a good positional kick?

Trengove is a poor kick, has no elevation and little depth.

[Sedat]

Crozier might kick it long, but is he a good positional kick?

Trengove is a poor kick, has no elevation and little depth.
And Naughton is a magnificent prospect, but his kicking is absolutely his weakest asset.

Hawthorn sliced us open with the precision of a surgeon on Saturday night. Sure our pressure was rubbish but you cannot have too many good ball users in your team. We play this manic game style with no composure whatsoever, so we invariably end up with a number of rolled gold inside 50 opportunities under no pressure but just hack kick it without the slightest bit of composure. Dahl is comfortably the worst offender on that score (probably in the entire competition) but he's got plenty of mates. I hate it and I'm sure our forwards aren't too enamoured with it either.

It's not a recent sample size either - our forward 50 to score conversion ratio has been one of the worst in the competition for a number of years. All the Bevo era (except late 2015) and all the BMac era as well.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

And Naughton is a magnificent prospect, but his kicking is absolutely his weakest asset.

Hawthorn sliced us open with the precision of a surgeon on Saturday night. Sure our pressure was rubbish but you cannot have too many good ball users in your team. We play this manic game style with no composure whatsoever, so we invariably end up with a number of rolled gold inside 50 opportunities under no pressure but just hack kick it without the slightest bit of composure. Dahl is comfortably the worst offender on that score but he's got plenty of mates. I hate it and I'm sure our forwards aren't too enamoured with it either.

It's not a recent sample size wither - our forward 50 to score conversion ratio has been one of the worst in the competition for a number of years. All the Bevo era (except late 2015) and all the BMac era as well.

The hawks murdered us by 1000 cuts. They were constantly in front of our man and just chipped it up the ground by always drawing one of ours up the ground. We were out-coached immensely as well

I've had a gutful of the appalling kicking skills. The Roarke Smith one to Daniel was one of the worst i have seen

[Mofra]

The hawks murdered us by 1000 cuts. They were constantly in front of our man and just chipped it up the ground by always drawing one of ours up the ground. We were out-coached immensely as well

I've had a gutful of the appalling kicking skills. The Roarke Smith one to Daniel was one of the worst i have seen
At this point dare I remind everyone that we have only two midfielders on our list that weren't either playing seniors or injured last week.

Mitch Honeychurch and Callum Porter.

I wonder if a small part of the problem is that there is no competition for spots. If you're shorter than 198cm and can run you are virtually guaranteed a game right now. The cupboard is bare.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

At this point dare I remind everyone that we have only two midfielders on our list that weren't either playing seniors or injured last week.

Mitch Honeychurch and Callum Porter.

I wonder if a small part of the problem is that there is no competition for spots. If you're shorter than 198cm and can run you are virtually guaranteed a game right now. The cupboard is bare.

I know we've got our fair share of injuries, but is a reason for that also our team makeup? Do we have too many talls and half backs?

[Sedat]

At this point dare I remind everyone that we have only two midfielders on our list that weren't either playing seniors or injured last week.

Mitch Honeychurch and Callum Porter.

I wonder if a small part of the problem is that there is no competition for spots. If you're shorter than 198cm and can run you are virtually guaranteed a game right now. The cupboard is bare.
Our lack of recruiting/trading in any midfielders (apart from Porter, who we only got because we delisted and re-rookied Roarke Smith) for the last 3 years has been as poor an example of list management as I've seen. All the clubs that have surpassed us have absolutely loaded up on midfield running power in that time - what on earth were we thinking?

[Sedat]

I've had a gutful of the appalling kicking skills. The Roarke Smith one to Daniel was one of the worst i have seen
It was a shocking kick and a terrible decision when there were so many other better options, but it is easy to pot the rookie on 80k a season when there are experienced players (some demanding 700k a season) whose combined field kicking is consistently rubbish. The leaders are showing the rookies the way unfortunately.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Our lack of recruiting/trading in any midfielders (apart from Porter, who we only got because we delisted and re-rookied Roarke Smith) for the last 3 years has been as poor an example of list management as I've seen. All the clubs that have surpassed us have absolutely loaded up on midfield running power in that time - what on earth were we thinking?

It's amazing to think that only 3 years ago everyone was saying how absolutely loaded our midfield was. Yes we had heaps of inside mids, but we were stacked. Now it appears a pendulum has swung and we've gone completely away and drafted too many key position players. It's why i don't really want to go best available in the draft and grab a King. I'd rather draft the next best available mid. I know we will get West, but we are in desperate need for 3-4 mids this offseason.

[bornadog]

Our lack of recruiting/trading in any midfielders (apart from Porter, who we only got because we delisted and re-rookied Roarke Smith) for the last 3 years has been as poor an example of list management as I've seen. All the clubs that have surpassed us have absolutely loaded up on midfield running power in that time - what on earth were we thinking?

I agree we need an A grade midfielder to come in, but based on the position the club has finished in the last three years, no way we could have recruited one. We know the best midfielders in the draft go at 1 to 5. Perhaps we could have traded one in, but again, that is very difficult - maybe we didn't go hard enough. North Melbourne has thrown huge money at mids with no luck, could we have done better? maybe we tried like North but just couldn't entice one in.

What we have done over the past three years is address the need for another ruck as well as some KPPs and did the best we could for mids.

Here are the last three years:



Pick
Player


9
Aaron Naughton


16
Ed Richards


74
Callum Porter






19
Timothy English


28
Patrick Lipinski


49
Lewis Young


70
Fergus Greene










25
Josh Dunkley


26
Kieran Collins


35
Marcus Adams


48
Bailey Williams



What we did do is recruit Richards, Porter, Lippa, Greene, Dunkley and Williams and try and develop them into mids.

[Sedat]

I agree we need an A grade midfielder to come in, but based on the position the club has finished in the last three years, no way we could have recruited one. We know the best midfielders in the draft go at 1 to 5. Perhaps we could have traded one in, but again, that is very difficult - maybe we didn't go hard enough. North Melbourne has thrown huge money at mids with no luck, could we have done better? maybe we tried like North but just couldn't entice one in.

What we have done over the past three years is address the need for another ruck as well as some KPPs and did the best we could for mids.

Here are the last three years:



Pick
Player


9
Aaron Naughton


16
Ed Richards


74
Callum Porter






19
Timothy English


28
Patrick Lipinski


49
Lewis Young


70
Fergus Greene










25
Josh Dunkley


26
Kieran Collins


35
Marcus Adams


48
Bailey Williams



What we did do is recruit Richards, Porter, Lippa, Greene, Dunkley and Williams and try and develop them into mids.
We haven't just recruited non-mids and we havent just not bothered to trade for an established mid or 3. We haven't even bothered to rookie a speculative mid. Guys like Jack Graham and Tim Kelly were not top 10 picks - I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

Why is it so difficult for some poeple to admit we have completely botched the last 3 years in terms of list management? Considering the massive running demands of the modern game, we have been incredibly negligent in an area of the game that other clubs have prioritised and jumped ahead of us as a result. Having Honeychurch and Porter as the only current available mid depth is farcical list management.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We haven't just recruited non-mids and we havent just not bothered to trade for an established mid or 3. We haven't even bothered to rookie a speculative mid. Guys like Jack Graham and Tim Kelly were not top 10 picks - I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

Why is it so difficult for some poeple to admit we have completely botched the last 3 years in terms of list management? Considering the massive running demands of the modern game, we have been incredibly negligent in an area of the game that other clubs have prioritised and jumped ahead of us as a result. Having Honeychurch and Porter as the only current available mid depth is farcical list management.

And we’ve just lost another in Clay with another in doubt in Picken. Then there’s rumours of letting Dahl and Wallis go. Who the hell will be left to get the pill!?

Who is to blame for the mess? Is Bevo a part of it? J Mac?

[bornadog]

We haven't just recruited non-mids and we havent just not bothered to trade for an established mid or 3. We haven't even bothered to rookie a speculative mid. Guys like Jack Graham and Tim Kelly were not top 10 picks - I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

Why is it so difficult for some poeple to admit we have completely botched the last 3 years in terms of list management? Considering the massive running demands of the modern game, we have been incredibly negligent in an area of the game that other clubs have prioritised and jumped ahead of us as a result. Having Honeychurch and Porter as the only current available mid depth is farcical list management.


And we’ve just lost another in Clay with another in doubt in Picken. Then there’s rumours of letting Dahl and Wallis go. Who the hell will be left to get the pill!?

Who is to blame for the mess? Is Bevo a part of it? J Mac?

We are all experts in hindsight.

[Sedat]

We are all experts in hindsight.
Everyone knew rotations were reducing and will continue to reduce, increasing the running demands on the game. If our list management team were caught napping that's inexcusable. They weren't, they just screwed up the balance of the list in the last 3 years.

Easier to get an acknowledgement of mistakes out of The Fonz.

[chef]

We are all experts in hindsight.

Nothing wrong with calling out mistakes made by highly paid professionals.

[Greystache]

We are all experts in hindsight.

Which is why we pay experts not to rely on hindsight. They've failed.

[Greystache]

I agree we need an A grade midfielder to come in, but based on the position the club has finished in the last three years, no way we could have recruited one. We know the best midfielders in the draft go at 1 to 5. Perhaps we could have traded one in, but again, that is very difficult - maybe we didn't go hard enough. North Melbourne has thrown huge money at mids with no luck, could we have done better? maybe we tried like North but just couldn't entice one in.


What we did do is recruit Richards, Porter, Lippa, Greene, Dunkley and Williams and try and develop them into mids.

We do?

Fyfe
Dangerfield
Sloane
T Mitchell
M Crouch
Sidebottom
Neale
Kelly
Cripps
Ross
Simpson
Beams
Steven
Ward
Kennedy
McLean
Merrett

None of them are top 5. Most aren't even top 10

[bornadog]

We do?

Fyfe
Dangerfield
Sloane
T Mitchell
M Crouch
Sidebottom
Neale
Kelly
Cripps
Ross
Simpson
Beams
Steven
Ward
Kennedy
McLean
Merrett

None of them are top 5. Most aren't even top 10

Oh well we lucked out.

[bornadog]

Which is why we pay experts not to rely on hindsight. They've failed.

That fail includes a premiership

[Greystache]

Oh well we lucked out.

Yep, just like injuries and goal kicking, recruiting is just luck.

[bornadog]

Yep, just like injuries and goal kicking, recruiting is just luck.

I am talking A Graders and you list every midfielder in the comp.

[Sedat]

That fail includes a premiership
It doesn't at all. We made very smart decisions in list management from 2011 to 2014, which contributed to our premiership. By contrast the list management decisions from 2015 to 2018 have been lopsided, which is why we are in our current predicament of chronic lack of running power and no midfield depth.

[bornadog]

It doesn't at all. We made very smart decisions in list management from 2011 to 2014, which contributed to our premiership. By contrast the list management decisions from 2015 to 2018 have been lopsided, which is why we are in our current predicament of chronic lack of running power and no midfield depth.

Sorry, still don't get how we were going to find an A grade mid with the picks we had.

[Greystache]

I am talking A Graders and you list every midfielder in the comp.

2 Brownlow medalists, 1 Brownlow favourite, and countless All Australians in that list. Maybe quit while you're behind.

[bornadog]

2 Brownlow medalists, 1 Brownlow favourite, and countless All Australians in that list. Maybe quit while you're behind.

My point is - it is difficult to pick an A grader outside the top 5, or let's say outside a first round pick.

These were our picks available.

2017 - 9, 16, 74,
2016- 19, 28, 49, 70,

2015 - 25, 26, 35, 48

Perhaps we shouldn't have picked Naughton and skipped to get a mid??

We picked up guys like Bont and Macrae with picks within 5.

This year we will get a crack at some good midfielders. I still say we need to throw some big dollars at an A grader, but as North found out, it is a hard task.

I am not saying Dalrmple was perfect, but it is hard to see what else he could have done.

People on this forum were praising him for being a genius now they are saying he stuffed up in the last 3 years.

[Mofra]

I am not saying Dalrmple was perfect, but it is hard to see what else he could have done.

People on this forum were praising him for being a genius now they are saying he stuffed up in the last 3 years.
Dal wasn't the list manager, Jason McCartney was.

Our list is imbalanced with so many talls and not enough runners, where the trend in AFL rule changes is weighted towards interchange rotation caps which will make running types even more important.

Some of talls really can cover the ground which helps (e.g. Zaine Cordy can run midfield Kms in a game, as he did against north) but right now we're taller than we'd like to be because we're light on for mids who would come in as injury cover.

Honeychurch find the ball a lot at VFL level so is certain to come in next week. If he picks up a niggle during the week Porter will get a debut by default and with all due respect to the kid (I'd love to see him make the grade), he's not ready yet.

[bornadog]

Dal wasn't the list manager, Jason McCartney was.

Our list is imbalanced with so many talls and not enough runners, where the trend in AFL rule changes is weighted towards interchange rotation caps which will make running types even more important.

Some of talls really can cover the ground which helps (e.g. Zaine Cordy can run midfield Kms in a game, as he did against north) but right now we're taller than we'd like to be because we're light on for mids who would come in as injury cover.

Honeychurch find the ball a lot at VFL level so is certain to come in next week. If he picks up a niggle during the week Porter will get a debut by default and with all due respect to the kid (I'd love to see him make the grade), he's not ready yet.

We were talking recruiting, interspersed with trading for a A grade mid.

[Greystache]

We were talking recruiting, interspersed with trading for a A grade mid.

No we were talking about list management recruiting is a piece of that.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

We haven't just recruited non-mids and we havent just not bothered to trade for an established mid or 3. We haven't even bothered to rookie a speculative mid. Guys like Jack Graham and Tim Kelly were not top 10 picks - I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

Why is it so difficult for some poeple to admit we have completely botched the last 3 years in terms of list management? Considering the massive running demands of the modern game, we have been incredibly negligent in an area of the game that other clubs have prioritised and jumped ahead of us as a result. Having Honeychurch and Porter as the only current available mid depth is farcical list management.

There is two things I would like to say on this subject. Since our flag win we have lost the base of our midfield in Libba Picken Macrae Smith plus injury to Roughead and the illness to Boyd for extended periods. For whatever reasons the WB have struggled to attract quality midfielders from other Clubs such as what we are seeing at the moment in Collingwood Hawthorn Geelong and the Sydney Swans. Most of the better midfielders in the past 3 years have been secured by these Clubs mentioned from other AFL teams. Our former skipper in Griffen is a case in point and imagine how valuable both he and Callan Ward would be now in our midfield. I can envisage both Williams and Richards moving into the midfield eventually and with Dunkley’s form now as a key tagger and the return of Liberatore we can look forward to next year with renewed confidence which will be enhanced by Tim English taking over as number one ruck man.

[Sedat]

There is two things I would like to say on this subject. Since our flag win we have lost the base of our midfield in Libba Picken Macrae Smith plus injury to Roughead and the illness to Boyd for extended periods. For whatever reasons the WB have struggled to attract quality midfielders from other Clubs such as what we are seeing at the moment in Collingwood Hawthorn Geelong and the Sydney Swans. Most of the better midfielders in the past 3 years have been secured by these Clubs mentioned from other AFL teams. Our former skipper in Griffen is a case in point and imagine how valuable both he and Callan Ward would be now in our midfield. I can envisage both Williams and Richards moving into the midfield eventually and with Dunkley’s form now as a key tagger and the return of Liberatore we can look forward to next year with renewed confidence which will be enhanced by Tim English taking over as number one ruck man.
You have to speculate to accumulate. My point is we've barely speculated at all with our midfield stocks the last 3 years, in an era that demands hard running midfield depth.

Williams and Richards are both talented enough to make it as mids. Lippa is a possibility. Dunks a chance too. But it's not enough depth. We needed to draft and rookie at least 3-4 more mids in the last 3 years. Lewis Young, N M-M, Naughton, Schache, Adams, English all brought in recently, while we recontracted the likes of Morris, Roberts, Roughy and Campbell. The mix has been completely askew the last 3 drafts and trade periods and it's hurting us big time now.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

You have to speculate to accumulate. My point is we've barely speculated at all with our midfield stocks the last 3 years, in an era that demands hard running midfield depth.

Williams and Richards are both talented enough to make it as mids. Lippa is a possibility. Dunks a chance too. But it's not enough depth. We needed to draft and rookie at least 3-4 more mids in the last 3 years. Lewis Young, N M-M, Naughton, Schache, Adams, English all brought in recently, while we recontracted the likes of Morris, Roberts, Roughy and Campbell. The mix has been completely askew the last 3 drafts and trade periods and it's hurting us big time now.

Appreciate your thoughts. I also think that our needs are greater off field than even on the field. The two constants we have at the moment are PG and Bevo. There has been too many changes to the CEO role and now our two key recruiting staff that help win us a flag have chosen to move on. Richmond is now the trendsetter and we need to take a leaf out of their book in an overhaul of its operations. The key in the football operations has been Neil Balme who has done a magnificent job in bringing in good football people.
This puts pressure on Chris Grant to do something similar. I would love to see former excellent on field leaders such as Scott West, Daniel Cross and Matthew Boyd lured back as Assistants to Bevo. The Club is definitely at a stage of needing renewal and change. Pressure is on Sam Power and Nick Austin to perform. I hope our CEO, Ameet Bain’s is in for the long haul. As was experienced post ‘54, ‘61 and ‘2016, the fall off from these Club successes has been dramatic and things need to change.

[bornadog]

You have to speculate to accumulate. My point is we've barely speculated at all with our midfield stocks the last 3 years, in an era that demands hard running midfield depth.

Williams and Richards are both talented enough to make it as mids. Lippa is a possibility. Dunks a chance too. But it's not enough depth. We needed to draft and rookie at least 3-4 more mids in the last 3 years. Lewis Young, N M-M, Naughton, Schache, Adams, English all brought in recently, while we recontracted the likes of Morris, Roberts, Roughy and Campbell. The mix has been completely askew the last 3 drafts and trade periods and it's hurting us big time now.

What is hurting us is no Libba,no Macrae, no Picken,no Clay, No Williams, No Suckling and no Wood

[Sedat]

What is hurting us is no Libba,no Macrae, no Picken,no Clay, No Williams, No Suckling and no Wood
Had we drafted some more mids in the last 3 years we might have had the depth to cover the injuries. Just as an example, maybe we could have speculated on a Will Hayes type as a rookie instead of N M-M. Instead we currently have 55 key defenders/forwards and bugger-all midfield depth.

Apart from Libba and Macrae (for the last 3 weeks only), your list of players would add virtually nothing to our current midfield rotations. Clay and Picko were small pressure forwards. Williams/Suckers/Wood are all D50 players (Williams has future midfield potential and I really hope we give him time in there in 2019 and beyond).

You appear to believe that we've made every post a winner with our list management decisions in the last 3 years and that there's nothing to see here. I beg to differ.

[LostDoggy]

Its not even up for discussion that our list is unbalanced with too many talls. Bev has said has much in multiple pressers. Yes injuries compound it but even stating the bleeding obvious guys like 'The List Manager' were onto the problem before the season started and the injuries occurred.

So its nothing to do with hindsight. and its nothing to do with furphies like not drafting Naughton. We recontracted players that were plainly not in Bev's plans in Webb, Campbell and Roberts. We also hung on to guys like Prudden for way too long. There are two or three list spots that should have been allocated to mids right there. Guys like Lyons, even North's Jacobs who the Crows picked up as a DFA were avaiailable cheaply. So it wasn't a question of price, and they both would be far better players than Honey and Jong. We should have drafted a couple of mids and picked up a mature mid or two cheaply. I would absolutely have backed Dalrymple to snag a decent mid even with late picks. Heck guys like Kelly were floating around late.

Instead we kept poor depth in Honey and Jong, let go decent depth in Stevens and Hrovat for nix (shocking trading and player management by the way). And recontracted non factors like Roberts and Campbell, and for that matter Webb (who I sort of rate but Bev plainly doesn't).

A lot wrong and entirely foreeable and avoidable. Clearly a total breakdown in communication between Bev and the list manager who was handing out two year contracts to guys Bev didn't rate.

No wonder JMac was moved on.

[bornadog]

Its not even up for discussion that our list is unbalanced with too many talls. Bev has said has much in multiple pressers. Yes injuries compound it but even stating the bleeding obvious guys like 'The List Manager' were onto the problem before the season started and the injuries occurred.

So its nothing to do with hindsight. and its nothing to do with furphies like not drafting Naughton. We recontracted players that were plainly not in Bev's plans in Webb, Campbell and Roberts. We also hung on to guys like Prudden for way too long. There are two or three list spots that should have been allocated to mids right there. Guys like Lyons, even North's Jacobs who the Crows picked up as a DFA were avaiailable cheaply. So it wasn't a question of price, and they both would be far better players than Honey and Jong. We should have drafted a couple of mids and picked up a mature mid or two cheaply. I would absolutely have backed Dalrymple to snag a decent mid even with late picks. Heck guys like Kelly were floating around late.

Instead we kept poor depth in Honey and Jong, let go decent depth in Stevens and Hrovat for nix (shocking trading and player management by the way). And recontracted non factors like Roberts and Campbell, and for that matter Webb (who I sort of rate but Bev plainly doesn't).

A lot wrong and entirely foreeable and avoidable. Clearly a total breakdown in communication between Bev and the list manager who was handing out two year contracts to guys Bev didn't rate.

No wonder JMac was moved on.

I am not disagreeing that we need more mids, what I am saying is with the picks we had over the last 3 years, how were we going to get an A grader? We don't need a Jacobs type, we need A graders. That is what is currently missing.

I personally love the fact we have some talls, for years we haven't had tall players and it cost us wins in all the prelims going back to 1992 and right through to 2010. The talls will be sorted out through delisting guys like Campbell, Redpath and probably Collins.

[Sedat]

I am not disagreeing that we need more mids, what I am saying is with the picks we had over the last 3 years, how were we going to get an A grader? We don't need a Jacobs type, we need A graders. That is what is currently missing.

I personally love the fact we have some talls, for years we haven't had tall players and it cost us wins in all the prelims going back to 1992 and right through to 2010. The talls will be sorted out through delisting guys like Campbell, Redpath and probablly Collins.
Wrong. We need midfield depth. We already have A Graders like Macrae and Bont, and McLean has developed into an A Grader. But because we lack depth in the middle we have killed these 3 as well as Hunter. Guys like Jacobs (DFA), Lyons (cheap trade), Kelly (pick 20 odd) and Jack Graham (pick 50 odd) would have helped enormously and all would have cost stuff all. Players under our nose like Hayes could have been picked up as a rookie instead of million to one shot athletes. Sure we'd love a Josh Kelly but again that's not enough to cover our depth.

The most alarming thing about your stance is your last paragraph talking about how our talls will be sorted out with a few delistings. List spots are a precious commodity and should always be treated as such - they clearly haven't in the last few years.

[Axe Man]

Its not even up for discussion that our list is unbalanced with too many talls. Bev has said has much in multiple pressers. Yes injuries compound it but even stating the bleeding obvious guys like 'The List Manager' were onto the problem before the season started and the injuries occurred.

So its nothing to do with hindsight. and its nothing to do with furphies like not drafting Naughton. We recontracted players that were plainly not in Bev's plans in Webb, Campbell and Roberts. We also hung on to guys like Prudden for way too long. There are two or three list spots that should have been allocated to mids right there. Guys like Lyons, even North's Jacobs who the Crows picked up as a DFA were avaiailable cheaply. So it wasn't a question of price, and they both would be far better players than Honey and Jong. We should have drafted a couple of mids and picked up a mature mid or two cheaply. I would absolutely have backed Dalrymple to snag a decent mid even with late picks. Heck guys like Kelly were floating around late.

Instead we kept poor depth in Honey and Jong, let go decent depth in Stevens and Hrovat for nix (shocking trading and player management by the way). And recontracted non factors like Roberts and Campbell, and for that matter Webb (who I sort of rate but Bev plainly doesn't).

A lot wrong and entirely foreeable and avoidable. Clearly a total breakdown in communication between Bev and the list manager who was handing out two year contracts to guys Bev didn't rate.

No wonder JMac was moved on.

Jacobs still plays for North, do you mean Gibson (who was traded for a junk pick, not a DFA)?

I'm not sure why Tim Kelly keeps being brought up? He was drafted at pick 24, the only way we were getting him was to pass on Naughton or Richards. There we large doubts about him pre-draft leaving WA and there is speculation the Cats may be forced to trade him back home as soon as the end of this season. No doubt the list managers would have been slammed if we drafted him with a high pick for him to leave a year later.

If we still had Hrovat and Stevens on the list I'm willing to bet they would have ended up in the we held on to them too long category. Although either would be handy now, neither would have been a long term solution.

No doubt our list is unbalanced, hopefully this silly season can go a long way to correcting the issue.

[SlimPickens]

I am not disagreeing that we need more mids, what I am saying is with the picks we had over the last 3 years, how were we going to get an A grader? We don't need a Jacobs type, we need A graders. That is what is currently missing.



We 100% need a Jacobs type, guy is an A-Grader. Imagine if we had a bloke you could rely on to negate the oppositions best every single week? Would be amazing for our midfield group.

[Mofra]

We 100% need a Jacobs type, guy is an A-Grader. Imagine if we had a bloke you could rely on to negate the oppositions best every single week? Would be amazing for our midfield group.
If we had a guy like that he'd probably go on to be a legitimate game-winning utility late in his career, star in a finals series and kick three goals in the Grand Final including the sealer.

Oh, and we would have picked him up as a rookie - no first rounder required.

[bornadog]

The most alarming thing about your stance is your last paragraph talking about how our talls will be sorted out with a few delistings. List spots are a precious commodity and should always be treated as such - they clearly haven't in the last few years.

WTF

If you look at the breakup of our talls, Young, Naughton, English, Schache and Collins are all 20 years old or younger. They are the upcoming players of the future which you need on your list. As they gain experience, if the older talls are not performing, then you either delist or trade - ie they are off your list.

[Sedat]

I'm not sure why Tim Kelly keeps being brought up? He was drafted at pick 24, the only way we were getting him was to pass on Naughton or Richards. There we large doubts about him pre-draft leaving WA and there is speculation the Cats may be forced to trade him back home as soon as the end of this season. No doubt the list managers would have been slammed if we drafted him with a high pick for him to leave a year later.
He has nominated for the draft a number of years in a row now (everyone ignored him to be fair). Also we did have (from memory) three 2nd round picks after the Stringer trade that we decided to parlay into one higher pick and Schache. So we had choices.

But it's not even about Kelly specifically. It's about the lack of speculating on enough midfielders in the last 3 years and overloading our list with talls (either through drafting/trading/rookieing or retaining existing players for minimal senior impact). Some people still seem to think we have a balanced list and that we're simply unlucky with injuries.

[bornadog]

He has nominated for the draft a number of years in a row now (everyone ignored him to be fair). Also we did have (from memory) three 2nd round picks after the Stringer trade that we decided to parlay into one higher pick and Schache. So we had choices.

But it's not even about Kelly specifically. It's about the lack of speculating on enough midfielders in the last 3 years and overloading our list with talls (either through drafting/trading/rookieing or retaining existing players for minimal senior impact). Some people still seem to think we have a balanced list and that we're simply unlucky with injuries.

No one is saying the list is totally balanced. You keep banging on about we should have speculated in the last 3 years, what do you think we did with Richards, Porter, Lippa, Greene, Dunkley and Williams. How many more do you want? I am not saying they are the right players, but with the picks we had, that is what we did.

[Sedat]

WTF

If you look at the breakup of our talls, Young, Naughton, English, Schache and Collins are all 20 years old or younger. They are the upcoming players of the future which you need on your list. As they gain experience, if the older talls are not performing, then you either delist or trade - ie they are off your list.
You think we haven't got too many talls and that we're just peachy for sufficient midfield depth on the list. That's great. I don't share your rose-coloured outlook of our recent list management, and our consistent inability all season to run out 120 minutes would suggest we are very light-on for midfield running power.

[Mantis]

No one is saying the list is totally balanced. You keep banging on about we should have speculated in the last 3 years, what do you think we did with Richards, Porter, Lippa, Greene, Dunkley and Williams. How many more do you want? I am not saying they are the right players, but with the picks we had, that is what we did.

In the last 3 -5 years we have either traded in, drafted or re-signed Collins, Naughton, Cordy, Trengove, Young, Adams & Roberts who all play primarily as key defenders, Morris also is a 190cm defender who whilst can play on the 6'4"+ guys is more than capable on players <193... that's way too many for that part of the ground.

We also have Campbell & Roughead on the list who aren't all that durable and don't paly them when they are fit (form related as well).

Take out 2-3 of these guys and replace them with mids and the list looks far more balanced.

[Sedat]

No one is saying the list is totally balanced. You keep banging on about we should have speculated in the last 3 years, what do you think we did with Richards, Porter, Lippa, Greene, Dunkley and Williams. How many more do you want? I am not saying they are the right players, but with the picks we had, that is what we did.
Conservatively at the very least 3 more (in the last 3 years). You are massively underrating the running demands of the modern game and clearly our list manager did the same. Instead we punt on a N M-M tall athletic type and then pick up Young and Naughton straight after. And we keep all of Roughy, Roberts, Campbell and Redders for minimal senior impact when we are already swimming with talls at either end.

Your list contains one genuine midfielder (Porter). The rest are hybrids who might be able to transition into the middle over time. That's fine, but what happens in the meantime? Yep, no midfield depth whatsoever to cover a select few key injuries and a burning out of our core 4 senior mids.

[bornadog]

In the last 3 -5 years we have either traded in, drafted or re-signed Collins, Naughton, Cordy, Trengove, Young, Adams & Roberts who all play primarily as key defenders, Morris also is a 190cm defender who whilst can play on the 6'4"+ guys is more than capable on players <193... that's way too many for that part of the ground.

We also have Campbell & Roughead on the list who aren't all that durable and don't paly them when they are fit (form related as well).

Take out 2-3 of these guys and replace them with mids and the list looks far more balanced.

I agree with your assessment. All I am saying is 5 tall players are 18 to 20 years old and gives us a good base for talls in the future.

2-3 guys out is fixable this next year end.

[bornadog]

You think we haven't got too many talls and that we're just peachy for sufficient midfield depth on the list. That's great. I don't share your rose-coloured outlook of our recent list management, and our consistent inability all season to run out 120 minutes would suggest we are very light-on for midfield running power.

If you don't read my posts I won't bother reading yours

[Mantis]

I agree with your assessment. All I am saying is 5 tall players are 18 to 20 years old and gives us a good base for talls in the future.

2-3 guys out is fixable this next year end.

This doesn't include another 6-8 (maybe more) that could make way too.

[bornadog]

This doesn't include another 6-8 (maybe more) that could make way too.

Yes agree. I was referring to the talls.

[LostDoggy]

Jacobs still plays for North, do you mean Gibson (who was traded for a junk pick, not a DFA)?

I'm not sure why Tim Kelly keeps being brought up? He was drafted at pick 24, the only way we were getting him was to pass on Naughton or Richards. There we large doubts about him pre-draft leaving WA and there is speculation the Cats may be forced to trade him back home as soon as the end of this season. No doubt the list managers would have been slammed if we drafted him with a high pick for him to leave a year later.

If we still had Hrovat and Stevens on the list I'm willing to bet they would have ended up in the we held on to them too long category. Although either would be handy now, neither would have been a long term solution.

No doubt our list is unbalanced, hopefully this silly season can go a long way to correcting the issue.

Yep meant Gibson thanks

Id prefer Hrovat to Honey, it isn't that close and wasnt at the time. Sadly we gave him away.

Kelly is an example, but was overlooked in multiple drafts prior to being drafted. Could have had him as a rookie.

Totally puzzled how the list manager and coach could screw up communicating so badly that players not in Bev's plans were given two yr contracts. I have no problem with drafting talls but we simply did not clear out the poor talls (and Honey) to allow us to pick up some mid depth. Disappointing.

With the likely coming cap rotations, if we are smart we should be all in for any decently skilled mid who is an endurance beast...Gaff....

[bornadog]

Id prefer Hrovat to Honey, it isn't that close and wasnt at the time. Sadly we gave him away.

.

Hrovat has been one big flop at North and his averages stats wise are worst than HC's. Hrovat is just as disappointing as HC and we received about what he was worth.

[Sedat]

If you don't read my posts I won't bother reading yours
I've read your posts with great interest actually. In your own words from an earlier post, "I personally love having some talls", so I'm surprised you hit back when I simply reinforced what you've already said.

In addition, you have also defended our list management decisions in the last 3 years in relation to midfield depth by listing all the hybrids we've selected, and also listing examples of our current injury crisis as justification for the reasons we lack midfield depth when the vast majority of the players you listed weren't even mids. I'm simply calling out both of these assertions as incorrect.

I think we're significantly light-on for midfield running power and that it was very much an avoidable outcome that our list management failed to address. You happen to disagree.

[bornadog]

Firstly don't say I have rose coloured glasses because I don't. I know the recruiters have made mistakes, they always will.


In addition, you have also defended our list management decisions in the last 3 years in relation to midfield depth by listing all the hybrids we've selected, and also listing examples of our current injury crisis as justification for the reasons we lack midfield depth when the vast majority of the players you listed weren't even mids. I'm simply calling out both of these assertions as incorrect.

I simply think with the picks we had we had little choice and we recruited players we could make into mids. With those pick numbers if we simply went for mids, we could be taking pot luck. We simply took the best available and with a view to turning them into mids - at least rotate them through like 2016. Dunkley for example is being turned into a mid. Who would have thought after 2016, Mclean could be so good in the midfield. I can see guys like Lippa, becoming a good mid. We did fail with trying to make Webb into a mid, but he is not up to AFL standard.

Yes you mention Kelly, but 17 clubs missed him. There will always be misses and will depend on the pick numbers you have.
I am trying to put myself in their shoes, and if the mantra is best available you take best available. If you call that defending them, so be it. I know we tried to trade in some mids but yes we did fail.


I've read your posts with great interest actually. In your own words from an earlier post, "I personally love having some talls", so I'm surprised you hit back when I simply reinforced what you've already said..

You need to go back and see who was on our list at the end of 2015, 2016, 2017 and see why the recruiters have brought in the talls. It is called succession planning, and adding in talls we never had in previous years. We have tried to play Wood and Morris as talls, and it is a stop gap measure. We also brought in a future ruckman

5 talls under 20 years old tells me we are on the right track with talls.

What we have failed to do in the last two years is bring in an A grade midfielder with outside run and speed to help out Bont, Libba, Macrae, Mclean, Jong, Hunter, Dahlaus, Picken, Clay.

It is so easy to rubbish recruiters, but there are a lot of factors to consider.

What we should be talking about is how to get the balance right.

[bornadog]

Back on topic

Bevo today


If Jack (Macrae) gets through training, he will play. Thursday will be a significant session so we will anticipate he will get through and play


Fergus Greene was unlikely to make his debut against Melbourne at the MCG on Saturday despite good VFL form.

[LostDoggy]

Firstly don't say I have rose coloured glasses because I don't. I know the recruiters have made mistakes, they always will.



I simply think with the picks we had we had little choice and we recruited players we could make into mids. With those pick numbers if we simply went for mids, we could be taking pot luck. We simply took the best available and with a view to turning them into mids - at least rotate them through like 2016. Dunkley for example is being turned into a mid. Who would have thought after 2016, Mclean could be so good in the midfield. I can see guys like Lippa, becoming a good mid. We did fail with trying to make Webb into a mid, but he is not up to AFL standard.

Yes you mention Kelly, but 17 clubs missed him. There will always be misses and will depend on the pick numbers you have.
I am trying to put myself in their shoes, and if the mantra is best available you take best available. If you call that defending them, so be it. I know we tried to trade in some mids but yes we did fail.



You need to go back and see who was on our list at the end of 2015, 2016, 2017 and see why the recruiters have brought in the talls. It is called succession planning, and adding in talls we never had in previous years. We have tried to play Wood and Morris as talls, and it is a stop gap measure. We also brought in a future ruckman

5 talls under 20 years old tells me we are on the right track with talls.

What we have failed to do in the last two years is bring in an A grade midfielder with outside run and speed to help out Bont, Libba, Macrae, Mclean, Jong, Hunter, Dahlaus, Picken, Clay.

It is so easy to rubbish recruiters, but there are a lot of factors to consider.

What we should be talking about is how to get the balance right.

You appear very recruitment focussed. You do realise we could have recruited exactly the same players we have PLUS three mids if we had of moved on the players Bev doesn't rate, namely Roberts, Campbell and Webb?

[bornadog]

You appear very recruitment focussed. You do realise we could have recruited exactly the same players we have PLUS three mids if we had of moved on the players Bev doesn't rate, namely Roberts, Campbell and Webb?

Fine, yes could have done that. What year should we have done that, given 2017 we traded in three players? Straight after the Grand final?

[bornadog]

The Bont out after having appendix removed.

[mjp]

I'm not sure why Tim Kelly keeps being brought up? He was drafted at pick 24, the only way we were getting him was to pass on Naughton or Richards. There we large doubts about him pre-draft leaving WA and there is speculation the Cats may be forced to trade him back home as soon as the end of this season. No doubt the list managers would have been slammed if we drafted him with a high pick for him to leave a year later.


https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?17516-Picks-9-amp-16-What-do-want-Who-do-we-want&p=581551#post581551

I am just going to agree with myself here. Kelly (and Ryan) should have been taken in the top 10. Naughton has looked great - but how many KPD's do we need?

[The Pie Man]

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?17516-Picks-9-amp-16-What-do-want-Who-do-we-want&p=581551#post581551

I am just going to agree with myself here. Kelly (and Ryan) should have been taken in the top 10. Naughton has looked great - but how many KPD's do we need?

Wrong thread...but on topic : what are your thoughts on Ian Hill as a top 6 pick mjp?

[LostDoggy]

Fine, yes could have done that. What year should we have done that, given 2017 we traded in three players? Straight after the Grand final?

For a start if we were planning on recruiting talls like Schache, Trengove, Naughton and English we shouldn't have been offering 2 yr contracts to any of Campbell, Roberts and likely Redpath. Nor should we have recruited Cloke (who we had to pay out this yr).

That is four list spots for mids. You could argue hindsight but I and many others were against these contract offers and the Cloke recruiment at the time.

So in effect Campbell could have been shifted on and Cloke not recruited (on yet another two yr deal) in 2016. Roberts and Redpath could have been moved on in 17.

[Remi Moses]

In the last 3 -5 years we have either traded in, drafted or re-signed Collins, Naughton, Cordy, Trengove, Young, Adams & Roberts who all play primarily as key defenders, Morris also is a 190cm defender who whilst can play on the 6'4"+ guys is more than capable on players <193... that's way too many for that part of the ground.

We also have Campbell & Roughead on the list who aren't all that durable and don't paly them when they are fit (form related as well).

Take out 2-3 of these guys and replace them with mids and the list looks far more balanced.

Needs more than a like . Can’t for the life of me figure out why we re-signed Campbell and Roberts to begin with

[Remi Moses]

Why we needed Trengove still perplexes! I get the Crozier pick up, but still having Redpath and then recruiting Schache

[Mofra]

Why we needed Trengove still perplexes! I get the Crozier pick up, but still having Redpath and then recruiting Schache
He's flexible which Bevo likes - we had no way of knowing we'd pick up Naughton, nor can we rely on Adams.

It's not like we're flush for senior players so bringing anyone useful in that doesn't cost picks I'm comfortable with.

[Mantis]

He's flexible which Bevo likes - we had no way of knowing we'd pick up Naughton, nor can we rely on Adams.

It's not like we're flush for senior players so bringing anyone useful in that doesn't cost picks I'm comfortable with.

So why don't we use his flexibility? For the life of me why didn't he play in the ruck against Haw when Boyd went off the ground? Cordy got flogged in the centre and gave us nothing at all around the ground. Could've easily shifted Cordy down back to allow Trengove a run in the ruck where he is fairly capable in the no.2 role.

[bornadog]

Let me just say, yes I agree with you and Sedat we need more mids, however, what I don't agree with is the solution and how we could have done that over the past 3 seasons with the picks we had, and the players we had.


For a start if we were planning on recruiting talls like Schache, Trengove, Naughton and English we shouldn't have been offering 2 yr contracts to any of Campbell, Roberts and likely Redpath. Nor should we have recruited Cloke (who we had to pay out this yr).

We signed Campbell, Roberts and Redpath before we recruited Schache, Trengove, Naughton and English - so not sure what you are saying here ? Perhaps we should have got rid of those three??? or not recruited the four players?

* Campbell was kept as a back up in the VFL
* Roberts just came off a premiership
* Redpath - well another backup I guess


So in effect Campbell could have been shifted on and Cloke not recruited (on yet another two yr deal) in 2016. Roberts and Redpath could have been moved on in 17.


I believe we tried to move Campbell at end of 2017, but there were no takers. Cloke was recruited after the premiership, and looked ok as we didn't really have anyone for CHF.

What we don't need is crappy mids, we need a player in mid 20s A Grader, plus at pick 5 another future A grader.

For interest sake, How many mids should we have on the list?

[Mantis]

We signed Campbell, Roberts and Redpath before we recruited Schache, Trengove, Naughton and English - so not sure what you are saying here ? Perhaps we should have got rid of those three??? or not recruited the four players?

* Campbell was kept as a back up in the VFL
* Roberts just came off a premiership
* Redpath - well another backup I guess


Campbell - which other club has a mid 20's VFL ruckman? Or maybe 2 of them?
Roberts - why give him a 2yr contract early on in the 2017 season when he was only a bit part player previously? It wasn't like he was in demand player. Ridiculous decision.
Redpath - why he was given a 2yr contract is beyond me after only ever having 1yr contracts. Having serious knee issues meant he was always going to be a year on year proposition and he might be a nice guy and well liked within the club, but he can't stay on the park.



I believe we tried to move Campbell at end of 2017, but there were no takers. Cloke was recruited after the premiership, and looked ok as we didn't really have anyone for CHF.

What we don't need is crappy mids, we need a player in mid 20s A Grader, plus at pick 5 another future A grader.

For interest sake, How many mids should we have on the list?

More than we currently have!

And how many A grade mids should we have? With a fit list we have 3 with McLean getting close, that's probably about as many as a team like Richmond and more than other top 8 teams. We need some more depth in that area which is what's killing us at present.

[Bullies]

i don't understand as to why Cordy is not playing down back. He is our best defender. Agree with the previous poster as to why Trengove doesn't ruck. Another of the bizarre moves.

[bornadog]

And how many A grade mids should we have?

We need a speedy A grader who can spread quickly and deliver the ball into the FWD line on to the chest of a player, like a Prestia, Josh Kelly, Treloar type. Plus a future A grader around 18/19 years old.

Mclean will be good, but gee he needs to fix his kicking, why does he try and hit the roof of Etihad?

We don't need plodders.

[bornadog]

i don't understand as to why Cordy is not playing down back. He is our best defender. Agree with the previous poster as to why Trengove doesn't ruck. Another of the bizarre moves.

Trengove has been playing full back, because there hasn't been anyone else. Naughton was injured, Adams only back the last 3 weeks and no taller than the Bont , Cordy too short to take on the gorillas? Anyone else in mind?

[Mofra]

So why don't we use his flexibility? For the life of me why didn't he play in the ruck against Haw when Boyd went off the ground? Cordy got flogged in the centre and gave us nothing at all around the ground. Could've easily shifted Cordy down back to allow Trengove a run in the ruck where he is fairly capable in the no.2 role.
I agree - a few of us at the ground were wondering the same thing.

[bornadog]

Gowers only did laps today, so may be another one that doesn't come up.

[azabob]

Gowers only did laps today, so may be another one that doesn't come up.

I reckon Gowers shouldn’t have played against the Hawks. His ankle looked shot against Geelong

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Trengove has been playing full back, because there hasn't been anyone else. Naughton was injured, Adams only back the last 3 weeks and no taller than the Bont , Cordy too short to take on the gorillas? Anyone else in mind?

I disagree BAD, Cordy had been terrific this year at full back to be our best defender. Trengrove’s best position is CHB as he lacks pace at Full Back. Hope to see both Cordy and Richards back in defence where they play their best football. Wouldn’t mind seeing Adams tried at Centre half forward.

[Bullies]

I disagree BAD, Cordy had been terrific this year at full back to be our best defender. Trengrove’s best position is CHB as he lacks pace at Full Back. Hope to see both Cordy and Richards back in defence where they play their best football. Wouldn’t mind seeing Adams tried at Centre half forward. Cordy is like Morris and plays on tall and short. He is a tackling machine. Needs to play back. Trengove plays on the gorillas and gets caned so does it matter who plays on them.

[Mantis]

Cordy is like Morris and plays on tall and short. He is a tackling machine. Needs to play back. Trengove plays on the gorillas and gets caned so does it matter who plays on them.

Very alike, but I don't think you can play them both in the same defence.

[Rocket Science]

Well I'll be buggered, when it rains it pours.

OUT: Bont (inj), Crozier (inj) and Boyd (inj)

IN: Jack Macrae, Jordan Roughead, Mitch Honeychurch

[bornadog]

great more injuries

[Eastdog]

great more injuries

I know just unbelieveable. Feels like it's a forever thing with these injuries. Surely it will turn soon.

Will be good to see how Roughy goes and good to have Macrae back. I hope HC can have a good game.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Well I'll be buggered, when it rains it pours.

OUT: Bont (inj), Crozier (inj) and Boyd (inj)

IN: Jack Macrae, Jordan Roughead, Mitch Honeychurch

Our depth and on field leadership without Wood and Bontempelli is being seriously challenged.
The many injuries has enabled the Club to introduce a number of new players in Richards Naughton Lipinski Schache and Lynch all gaining valuable senior experience. The inclusions of Trengrove and Adams adds important maturity given the continued loss of our quality experienced players in Bont Liberatore Picken Crozier Williams etc. Roughead and Macrae are good inclusions and you know HC will be giving his best perhaps as a tagger where he looks to be better suited.

[AndrewP6]

Hope Boyd isn't struggling with his mental health. Good to have Jack Mac back (oh, that's poetry).

[Eastdog]

http://m.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2018-07-12/team-news-round-17

TEAM NEWS: Roughead returns
Katie de Haer
12 July 2018 6:45 PM

Jordan Roughead will return to the Western Bulldogs’ line-up ahead of its clash with Melbourne at the MCG on Saturday in place of Tom Boyd who’ll miss with back soreness.

Roughead is one of three inclusions to take on the Dees alongside Jackson Macrae and Mitch Honeychurch.

Boyd and Hayden Crozier (hamstring tightness) are both unavailable, while Marcus Bontempelli was ruled out on Wednesday after having surgery for appendicitis.

Roughead will play just his sixth match this season, his last senior appearance was against Melbourne in Round 11.

Macrae and Honeychurch will return for their first match since round 14.

Macrae missed a fortnight of football with a hamstring injury while Honeychurch has been given a senior recall following his 27 disposals, seven marks and five tackle performance in Footscray’s loss to Box Hill last Saturday.

In the absence of captain Easton Wood and vice-captain Marcus Bontempelli – Jason Johannisen, celebrating his 100th game milestone, will captain the side for the first time.

Saturday’s match will mark the Dogs’ first outing at MCG this year, with the team winning its past six games at the venue.

For full match and ticketing information click here.

AFL Round 17 Melbourne vs Western Bulldogs
Saturday 14 July 2018, 4:35pm AEST
Venue: MCG

Full back M Adams J Trengove R Smith
Half back D Morris Z Cordy J Johannisen
Centreline P Lipinski J Macrae L Hunter
Half forward E Richards J Schache J Dunkley
Full forward L Dahlhaus A Naughton B Gowers
Followers J Roughead T McLean M Wallis
Interchange M Honeychurch S Biggs C Daniel
B Lynch
Emergencies L Young T Campbell F Roberts
F Greene

IN: J. Macrae, M. Honeychurch, J. Roughead

OUT: M. Bontempelli (appendicitis), H. Crozier (hamstring), T. Boyd (back)

[Bullies]

if we lose we can blame Honeychurch.

[Axe Man]

Our depth and on field leadership without Wood and Bontempelli is being seriously challenged.
The many injuries has enabled the Club to introduce a number of new players in Richards Naughton Lipinski Schache and Lynch all gaining valuable senior experience. The inclusions of Trengrove and Adams adds important maturity given the continued loss of our quality experienced players in Bont Liberatore Picken Crozier Williams etc. Roughead and Macrae are good inclusions and you know HC will be giving his best perhaps as a tagger where he looks to be better suited.

Dunkley has done well the last couple of weeks in a run with role, shutting Mitchell down last game fresh off 50 touches the week before. No way should we switch back to the inferior Honeychurch. Besides he is too small to tag the bigger midfielders such as Oliver who I would think would be the prime target this week.

No doubting his endeavour but the place he looks better suited is the VFL.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Dunkley has done well the last couple of weeks in a run with role, shutting Mitchell down last game fresh off 50 touches the week before. No way should we switch back to the inferior Honeychurch. Besides he is too small to tag the bigger midfielders such as Oliver who I would think would be the prime target this week.

No doubting his endeavour but the place he looks better suited is the VFL.
No argument from me on Dunkley best suited to tag Oliver.
When you look at our interchange bench you would have to say that HC Biggs and Daniel are all lucky to be selected highlighting our lack of depth at the moment.

[Rocket Science]

Fine, I've foolishly taken the bait but what's this colossal arseflute alluding to?

http://i65.tinypic.com/aw5fgk.png

The club's full of shit? Boyd's out for 'other' reasons? Or merely an excuse to flog one more feeble yelp from the dead horse of easy Boyd narratives. Oh, and that nasty man Bevo inexplicably has it in for another of his players too.

The real shame is that 'Sliding Doors' isn't renamed 'Steaming Piles'.

[hujsh]

Fine, I've foolishly taken the bait but what's this colossal arseflute alluding to?

http://i65.tinypic.com/aw5fgk.png

The club's full of shit? Boyd's out for 'other' reasons? Or merely an excuse to flog one more feeble yelp from the dead horse of easy Boyd narratives. Oh, and that nasty man Bevo inexplicably has it in for another of his players too.

The real shame is that 'Sliding Doors' isn't renamed 'Steaming Piles'.

I'd like to applaud you for taking a screenshot/snip so the rest of us don't have to contribute to his traffic. Top class thinking there

[The Pie Man]

Purple - wind up merchants don’t need oxygen, but there is still something unsettling about the league letting that kind of post out under their name.

So Barrett, and by extension the AFL, are insinuating that every time Tom Boyd misses a game it maybe due to a mental health issue?

I’m trying to be objective... but the AFL’s messaging around mental health is clearly empty rhetoric. I shouldn’t be surprised, but it’s disappointing nevertheless.

[Before I Die]

It's a straight out attack on Bevo. Alluding that he is protecting Boyd and sacrificing Roughead to underhandedly given credence to his own personal view of their relative value.

This really is personal for Purple.

[The Pie Man]

It's a straight out attack on Bevo. Alluding that he is protecting Boyd and sacrificing Roughead to underhandedly given credence to his own personal view of their relative value.

This really is personal for Purple.

I get that - which on its own discredits him... but what a disgraceful way to go about it.

[Greystache]

It's a straight out attack on Bevo. Alluding that he is protecting Boyd and sacrificing Roughead to underhandedly given credence to his own personal view of their relative value.

This really is personal for Purple.

I think that's a more accurate interpretation than the mental health line of thought. Throw your unwanted to the wolves as it were.