We didn't win the flag in 1997 - who do you blame?

[Dry Rot]

First up, this season was in my pre-AFL days. I haven't seen the game but I've read a hell of a lot about it.

Many seem to think that a blind goal umpire robbed us of not only a PF but a seemingly certain flag, but does this really stand up to scrutiny?

1. Obvious question - was it a goal? Seems to be a consensus that it was?

2. Did we really deserve to win the game? IIRC, we were well ahead and should never have let the Crows back in the game.

3. As the Crows came back, didn't Wallace have a Plan B? Was he more to blame, the coach or the players?

4. But what if we had won the PF - was a flag so certain the next week? IIRC Spida Everritt had done his shoulder in the finals and one of young gun forwards that season was missing from the GF. If I was genie and could take you back then, if we want to discuss "ifs", how about I give Libba the goal and Spider a good shoulder and be available. Who would win that Dogs v Saints GF?

[hujsh]

Well at least if we made it the Crows wouldn't have won. It would have been us and the Saints which would have been nice.

[Dry Rot]

It would have been us and the Saints which would have been nice.

Why?

And would we have beaten Saints with Everitt?

[The Coon Dog]

Maybe, coulda, woulda, shoulda. Who knows? Not worth thinking about as it's something I try to forget about, but people on here & BF decide to bring it up again. More therapy sessions required now! ;)

I reckon Wallace was slow to react to the way the game changed. This is all from a supressed memory, mind you, but I recall Grant sitting up our forward line like a stale bottle of pineapple juice whist Nigel Smart ran amok in their forward line.

Romero should never have played as he re did his shoulder early doors.

Cameron was taken from the ground in the early part of the final term as i felt Wallace was 'resting' him for the following week.

Like in '85, I felt if we got there, we would have won, tho it would have been without Cookie from memory, I seem to recall he got reported & rubbed out.

Thanks DR, for making me relive some of that!! ;)

[LostDoggy]

1. Obvious question - was it a goal? Seems to be a consensus that it was?
Yes, I was behind it in flight.

2. Did we really deserve to win the game? IIRC, we were well ahead and should never have let the Crows back in the game.
No we played like millionaires in the 2nd half and choked on most chances we had to finish them off.

3. As the Crows came back, didn't Wallace have a Plan B?
Its more a case of Wallace had no answer to Blight's plan B.

Was he more to blame, the coach or the players?
Both

4. But what if we had won the PF - was a flag so certain the next week? IIRC Spida Everritt had done his shoulder in the finals and one of young gun forwards that season was missing from the GF. If I was genie and could take you back then, if we want to discuss "ifs", how about I give Libba the goal and Spider a good shoulder and be available. Who would win that Dogs v Saints GF?
Yes would have won. We had their measure. Beat comfortably a full strength Saints at their home ground at VFL park mid season. They had no matchup for Chris Grant. Unless we choked.

[Dry Rot]

How did Blight turn it around in the second half?

[LostDoggy]

How did Blight turn it around in the second half?
He was helped by Modra doing his knee prior half time. Our backline was in control, Kretiuk dominating Modra.
Simply moved Smart to CHF then later Jarman to FF. Rehn got on top of Wynd, Samson ( was never heard of again) kicked 2 rippers in the 3rd quarter to keep them within distance.

[BulldogBelle]

How did Blight turn it around in the second half?

Blight always had the answers whenever he coached against us...whilst at Adelaide and also at Geelong. He could read our game so easily. I used to hate playing against any team he coached - somehow I knew he would find our measure each and every time we faced his coaching against us.

Blame: It was a number of things - Our cockiness in the second half thinking we had the game won, the umpire who disallowed Libba's goal, Wallace doing a few silly moves. I could go on and on.

[LostDoggy]

Just remembered Adelaide beat us at Optus Oval easily but we thrashed them in Adelaide 4/5 weeks prior the finals.

[hujsh]

Why?

And would we have beaten Saints with Everitt?

Two clubs who haven't won flags in ages. One has to win. Adelaide doesn't

[hotdog]

Dry Rot a most painful memory for me but if you must....
1. Yes it was a goal but in the big scheme of things shoul have won the game by then
2. We were lining up at the Western Oval for GF tickets at 3/4 time so no we did not deserve to win even though it was our shot at glory
3. The beauty of our game. I can remember whilst playing if you got a run along nothing could stop you. Adelaide did just that. Jarman could have had 3 opponents that day and still marked and goaled,
they had the run.
4. Probably would have beaten the Saints but we too could be sitting here saying what happened on that day.
IMO as painful as it was/ is! it will make it all so sweeter on that day......

[Mantis]

Bringing up old memories I have been trying unsuccessfully to forget.

Up until the last quarter we were playing very well. We held ground in the all important 3rd qtr and looked to be cruising into the GF, but as we all know it unravelled in 30mins of torture.

Who to blame?

1. Wallace - As TCD posted, Wallace was very slow to react to the change in momentum. Grant had to move to CHB, just had to.

2. Kicking for goal - We had some very gettable goals which were missed. We had know-one with the calmness to ice the game. We simply wilted under the pressure.

3. Mark West - I still can't forget him for that miss. In-excusable for a league player to miss it.

4. Kick-ins - We continued to kick long to Wynd who was used as a step ladder by Smart on the Southern Stand side. For some reason I can remember thinking that Smith was rushing his kicks and not spotting up players free on the Members side. To me Dent should have been used to kick out more in this situation.

5. Midfield - Kane Johnson tore us apart in the last qtr. We had no run left. Playing Romero was a mistake.

6. Jarman - Curley was not the correct match-up, but Jarman was all class as he showed the next week.

[LostDoggy]

Bringing up old memories I have been trying unsuccessfully to forget.

Up until the last quarter we were playing very well. We held ground in the all important 3rd qtr and looked to be cruising into the GF, but as we all know it unravelled in 30mins of torture.

Who to blame?

1. Wallace - As TCD posted, Wallace was very slow to react to the change in momentum. Grant had to move to CHB, just had to.

2. Kicking for goal - We had some very gettable goals which were missed. We had know-one with the calmness to ice the game. We simply wilted under the pressure.

3. Mark West - I still can't forget him for that miss. In-excusable for a league player to miss it.
4. Kick-ins - We continued to kick long to Wynd who was used as a step ladder by Smart on the Southern Stand side. For some reason I can remember thinking that Smith was rushing his kicks and not spotting up players free on the Members side. To me Dent should have been used to kick out more in this situation.

5. Midfield - Kane Johnson tore us apart in the last qtr. We had no run left. Playing Romero was a mistake.

6. Jarman - Curley was not the correct match-up, but Jarman was all class as he showed the next week.

Bit harsh! On the run , someone breathing down his neck from 35m

[Mantis]

Bit harsh! On the run , someone breathing down his neck from 35m

and to put your team into a grand final... Mate, everyone dreams of this moment and it simply should not have been missed. As well as he played on that day this is the one moment that defines him and he stuffed it up.

[LostDoggy]

Can't blame 1 individual player as other missed easy shots too!
Huddo didn't sheppard, Someone blazed away when Cook was free in the square, etc, etc.

[always right]

...and Granty dropped a chest mark in the dying moments. Sigh...having flashbacks.:(

[LostDoggy]

[QUOTE=Mantis;24317]and to put your team into a grand final... Mate, everyone dreams of this moment and it simply should not have been missed. As well as he played on that day this is the one moment that defines him and he stuffed it up.[/QUOT

Comments like this just show your lack of knowledge and understanding for the game

[Twodogs]

[QUOTE=Mantis;24317]and to put your team into a grand final... Mate, everyone dreams of this moment and it simply should not have been missed. As well as he played on that day this is the one moment that defines him and he stuffed it up.[/QUOT

Comments like this just show your lack of knowledge and understanding for the game



I agree with Mantis.

You've got to put everything else out of your mind. You cant afford to think about the bloke on your hammer-a teammate will let you know if he's close enough to do any damage, it's your job to concentrate on the kick-especially on the run. West didnt balance properly, didnt drop his eyes to look for options but just panicked and blazed away. I loved Mark West and his shoulder injuries were a modern day bulldog tragedy. But if he had that moment again he'd do what he'd done at training a million times, do everything properly and kick the goal




Anyway many thanks to DR for dredging up all these hapy memories. My two main nightmare memories are Hudson and Grant running into each other instead of one of them shepherding and one go for the loose ball, from memory it was about 15-20 metres out and there was no Adelaide player goalside of the ball. The other was Libba's goal-I was three rows from the front directly behind the flight of the ball and it was a goal everyday of the week and twice on sundays.

[The Doctor]

My view

In: Kolyniuk, Dimattina, Southern

Out: Martin, Brown, Curley

If only...........sigh

-----------------------------

It was Romero who blazed away when Cook was free in the goalsquare.

Wallace lack of faith in the team thus foolishly playing Romero. Big mistake.

Martin needlessly running into West on the half forward flank late in the last 1/4 resulting in West getting caught as we were going forward and the turnover sending the Crows into attack. Goal result I think?

Wallace taking Cameron off for so long. Can someone spare me a boxing glove?

Smith and Johnson disappearing in the last 1/4.

However I think the big difference was Rehn getting on top of Wynd in the second half.

[mjp]

I dont blame anyone.

In a game lost by such a small margin, it really is a matter of what team was lucky enough to be in front when the final siren rang.

Yes, we were in front. Yes, we were the better side early in the match. But from a Crows perspective, they had the momentum and the more dangerous (and mobile) forward line. And (from recollection), actually had some players they could rotate off the bench.

1997/98 are the seasons I have enjoyed most as a Dogs fan, and I refuse to blame either players or coach or doctors or president or water boys or whoever for the teams failure to go all the way.

[Sockeye Salmon]

First up, this season was in my pre-AFL days. I haven't seen the game but I've read a hell of a lot about it.

Many seem to think that a blind goal umpire robbed us of not only a PF but a seemingly certain flag, but does this really stand up to scrutiny?

1. Obvious question - was it a goal? Seems to be a consensus that it was?


The following year there was an enormous amount of publicity about goal umpiring mistakes. I think Rowan Sawyers was the umpires advisor at the time and he make a comment something along the lines of: "Goal umpiring mistakes are nothing new, they have always been part of football. One of last years finals was probably decided by one".



2. Did we really deserve to win the game? IIRC, we were well ahead and should never have let the Crows back in the game.


Hard one. It wasn't as if we dominated the game, in fact it was the opposite. For the first three quarters we were just more efficent in front of goal than them. They kicked a whole lot of points from memory.




3. As the Crows came back, didn't Wallace have a Plan B? Was he more to blame, the coach or the players?


I hold Wallace totally responsible.
Niogel Smart was ripping us a new one at CHF while Grant froze his bum off in the goalsquare.
While Jarman was killing Curley at FF our regular FB, Steve Kretiuk, was on the bench.
Jose Romero dislocated a shoulder against Sydney two weeks earlier yet Wallace played him. A dislocated shoulder is a 6 week injury. Romero re-did it early in the game.





4. But what if we had won the PF - was a flag so certain the next week? IIRC Spida Everritt had done his shoulder in the finals and one of young gun forwards that season was missing from the GF. If I was genie and could take you back then, if we want to discuss "ifs", how about I give Libba the goal and Spider a good shoulder and be available. Who would win that Dogs v Saints GF?

Romero would have missed the grand final with injury.
James Cook and Mark West got reported in the PF and rubbed out.

Most people forget that Rohan Smith got reported for kicking in the PF but got off. If we had won that game this would have been the story of the next week. With all the extra scrutiny (and politics) would the tribunal have made the same decision?

[always right]

In '97 I was distraught but in '98 I was just plain angry. Rohan Smith at CHB on Robran, Libba at HB on McLeod...and we didn't give a yelp.

[hujsh]

I'm glad i can't remember that far back. I get bitter and angry enough from the stories. If i had seen it myself... that would suck

[LostDoggy]

In '97 I was distraught but in '98 I was just plain angry. Rohan Smith at CHB on Robran, Libba at HB on McLeod...and we didn't give a yelp.

While we had 2 or 3 backman playing reserves.

[Dry Rot]

In '97 I was distraught but in '98 I was just plain angry. Rohan Smith at CHB on Robran, Libba at HB on McLeod...and we didn't give a yelp.

That's a game I do remember and worthy of a thread itself.

[mjp]

That's a game I do remember and worthy of a thread itself.

Pretty sure we have done that already....but we were 'gone' by prelim final day. If the '98 GF had been in June we would have won.

[hujsh]

Pretty sure we have done that already....but we were 'gone' by prelim final day. If the '98 GF had been in June we would have won.

Yes because he did it. ;)

[mjp]

Yes because he did it. ;)

Not exactly...check the archives.

Yes, there is a new thread - my point was we have HAD the 1998 discussion. Anyway, thanks for the wink - it made all the difference.

[Sockeye Salmon]

While we had 2 or 3 backman playing reserves.

Danny Southern got 2 weeks for wrestling v Hawthorn (wrestling FFS!), so I think he would have still had 1 week to serve*.

Horse had missed a few games and played reserves rather than ome straight back in.



*Southern got 2 weeks for wrestling because he was done for wrestling the previous week as well. Hawthorn knew he was on a warning, jumped on him and the poor bugger was gone.

Raydon Tallis got 2 weeks for striking in that game as well. Hawthorn missed the finals but their reserves were in. Tallis was allowed to play in the reserves finals because he wasn't suspended playing reserves or some such shit. He served his 2 weeks in the Wizard cup the next February.

[aker39]

Danny Southern got 2 weeks for wrestling v Hawthorn (wrestling FFS!), so I think he would have still had 1 week to serve*.

Horse had missed a few games and played reserves rather than ome straight back in.






IIRC Southern was reported in Round 22 and got 2 weeks.

We won the Qualifying Final against the Eagles, so the prelim was his 2nd week.

He would have been available for the GF

[Mantis]

IIRC Southern was reported in Round 22 and got 2 weeks.

We won the Qualifying Final against the Eagles, so the prelim was his 2nd week.

He would have been available for the GF

Against the Swans..

Didn't Hawthorn try and belt the bejesus out of us in that game at Waverley. Maybe they drew a line in the sand.:rolleyes:

West was being seriously man handled by up to 3 Hawks players. Southern went over to sort it out and they turned on him. IIRC Paul Salmon did some dog acts that day too.

[aker39]

Against the Swans..




Sorry, I thought I was in the 1998 thread.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Sorry, I thought I was in the 1998 thread.

Whoops. I've been getting my years confused as well.

I bought my first house while I was at the G watching us beat Sydney.

[aker39]

Whoops. I've been getting my years confused as well.

I bought my first house while I was at the G watching us beat Sydney.


I bought my first house while I was at Optus Oval umpiring a game of football.

[LostDoggy]

This (1997) is really a neurosis for us, isn't it? We are all stuck on it. I blame myself for jinxing it at 3/4 time.

Perhaps in the spirit of therapy we should one day ask a Crows fan to explain what happened that day, from their perspective. It will be lies of course, but it might help.

[LostDoggy]

Talk about a neurosis.. it happened on my birthday. After the entire season, the Sydney game and the first three and a bit quarters, I thought all my presents had come at once.

I was living then just a stone's throw away from where the Dome is now (and strangely enough I'm back in the vicinity after making a circuit around the inner city over the last ten years), and I remember getting home after the game and looking out over the Flagstaff Gardens and just feeling empty as my housemate's dog yapped in the background. My housemate -- bless her heart -- then arrived home with my birthday presents -- a limited edition trophy plate autographed by Scott Wynd, and Doggie boxers. She heard the result on the way home and there was a funereal silence as she handed the loot over.

I still can't look at the plate.

[Sedat]

Why?

And would we have beaten Saints with Everitt?
Everett was out injured for the season from about July onwards. Vidovic was injured in the Friday night prelim victory against North. Brett Cook was their starting ruckman in the GF - they would have been cannon fodder for us.

We beat St Kilda at their Waverley fortress mid season when they were flying and at full strength.