Beams - Shiel - Neale - Wingard

[mjp]

SO. These 4-players are all changing clubs (so it would seem). Who is the best?

4. Beams. He is the oldest (by far). To me, that is where the argument starts and stops!

3. Shiel. Of the 3x 25 year olds (Shiel, Neale and Wingard are all 25), he is the most limited. He has been playing in a VERY good midfield - and has never been close to the best player. To me he is more cream than cake and has relied heavily on the work of Ward and Coniglio inside and has not copped the tagging attention of Kelly and Whitfield outside. Hasn't won a B&F...

2. Neale. Multiple B&F winner. Plays his BEST footy when he is 'da man' (aka when Fyfe is out, he steps UP). Goal kicker - well, apparently Shiel kicks more even though that isn't true! and is just a possession winning machine.

1. Wingard. Enough about him. Mid/forward, goal-kicking match-winner...

SO....why are people saying multiple first round picks will get Shiel, 1 early pick will get Neale and 1 mid-range pick will get Wingard. Is anyone watching footy and challenging these assessments? Or do people just not watch Freo and Port games but have been forced to watch the Giants as they have gone deeper into the finals over the past couple of seasons? Somethings up here...

[bornadog]

Lachie Neale really racks up the posessions, but I haven't really seen much of him. How damaging is he?

Wingard has not lived up to his early AA form and has stagnated a bit, or is that because he hasn't played much mid field in the last two years. I haven't rated him as an A Grader because of that, but I know he is.

As for what they are all worth in trading, I guess it depends on what the market will pay

[jeemak]

How much does the media narrative drive the market?

I'm honestly not sure whether we give those involved in the football industry too much credit, thinking they're impervious to what they see and hear in the media, or not prone to the same things lay folk are when over-exposed to certain messages (but to a smaller degree).

There's constant examples, ironically, within the media itself! Players and coaches finish up, and often sprout garbage...…….just because they heard it sprouted by colleagues or within the media generally.

[Grantysghost]

Shiel, Neale, Wingard, Beams I think.

[Twodogs]

At the time Shiel made his choice and the two first round pick talk started I thought that the team getting Wingard for one first rounder was getting a bargain in comparison.

[Go_Dogs]

If I was selecting players for us, I'd take Wingard first, Neale second, Shiel third and Beams fourth.

Wingard still has the highest ceiling of this group, albeit is the most inconsistent.

Neale would be great for us and a brilliant insurance if Libba can't get himself back on the park or back to his best.

We already have a much better 'does everything reasonably well' midfielder in Macrae, but Shiel would be a useful fourth or fifth cog and do a similar role to that he does at GWS for us.

Beams is last purely on age, but he'd also be a good addition to our group too.

Ultimately need comes into what players are worth on the market, and list composition will determine what a club sees as sufficient to trade away a wanted player.

[Mofra]

We talking draft value or who is the best player?

Beams has the lowest value due to his age, Neale is possibly the best player and the most valuable.

Wingard has the highest ceiling but how often dos he hit it? He's an elite forward or a very good mid and by all accounts he only wants to play as a mid. Sheil seems like a mid or nothing else.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Beams - Neale - Wingard - Shiel.

Why?

- Beams is a complete player who can be damaging (win plenty of ball + kick goals) but also adhere to defensive structures.
- Neale is a high output player and close to the complete player too.
- Wingard has extreme talent but his output isn't as high as the previous two.
- Shiel is a good player but seriously overrated. Doesn't kick goals and average skills.

[Ozza]

Beams is the best footballer in the group - no doubts for me. But of course he might only have 3-4 seasons remaining.
So if you take him out due to age....personally I think Neale is the best footballer. Doesn't know how to play a bad game.

Wingard and Shiel is a toss of the coin - different type of players and depends what your need is - Wingard is more suited to what we need.

[Twodogs]

Beams is the best footballer in the group - no doubts for me. But of course he might only have 3-4 seasons remaining.
So if you take him out due to age....personally I think Neale is the best footballer. Doesn't know how to play a bad game.

Wingard and Shiel is a toss of the coin - different type of players and depends what your need is - Wingard is more suited to what we need.

We have enough Shiel types that couldn't hit a barn door by foot under the smallest amount of pressure, in fact we have been madly showing them the door over the last couple of off seasons. I really don't understand the obsession with him and giving up TWO first rounders is verging on insanity. Wingard at one early first rounder is much more attractive value.

[Mofra]

Interesting to revisit this.
Hard to really judge after Wingard's injuries but we seem to have dodged a bullet in many ways.

[Go_Dogs]

Interesting to revisit this.
Hard to really judge after Wingard's injuries but we seem to have dodged a bullet in many ways.

Didn't watch last night, but appears he had a good game.

Gee Neale has been impressive though.

[azabob]

Didn't watch last night, but appears he had a good game.

Gee Neale has been impressive though.

It helps when the opposition don’t turn up.

[Twodogs]

It helps when the opposition don’t turn up.

Abysmal weren't they? I watched until half time and thought that despite the poor start that they were going to wind Hawthorn in after the break so I went to bed because I have this rotten cold that is going around and was quite surprised when I switched my phone on this morning.

[bornadog]

Happy we didn't pickup Wingard, my original assessment of not being an A grader holds true.

[GVGjr]

Happy we didn't pickup Wingard, my original assessment of not being an A grader holds true.

At his best he is an an A Grader but he is injury prone and we might have dodged a bullet

[AshMac]

I never wanted Wingard. he was awful at Port for the last year but in form he is magnificent.

The second I heard he takes his gaming rig on interstate trips with him, insists on a room alone and skips all the team meals etc to play games I went right off him. From a mile away he is a downhill skier IMO and the last personality type we’d be after given the type of person we’ve targeted lately

[Sedat]

Interesting to revisit this.
Hard to really judge after Wingard's injuries but we seem to have dodged a bullet in many ways.
Wingard has been excellent since he's come back from injury in the last few weeks. Slow start but I think he will recapture his best form over time - he is an elite midfielder when given the opportunity to play in there, which Hawthorn have been doing lately. With a full pre-season under his belt next year, I think he can return to a top 25 player in the comp.

Neale has been an absolute jet for Brisbane this season, even going up a notch from his previously elite Freo form. He is easily the best of the 4 big name recruits. Beams has been a complete disaster and Shiel has not improved Essendon's midfield clearance work one iota - he is simply another nice addition to their outside midfield stocks who has kicking deficiencies. Essendon have needed a big inside bull midfielder ever since Jobe Watson stopped becoming an elite player after the drugs wore off - some of the hyperbole about the Bomber's rise with Shiel's inclusion was complete hot air.

[Sedat]

Happy we didn't pickup Wingard, my original assessment of not being an A grader holds true.
He's an a-grader, but hasn't consistently reached that level. His talent is without question. If he was a stock I'd be buying in 2020.

I would not swap Wingard for Bailey Smith though - I got that wrong last year. Smith is one of the most complete inside-outside midfielders to enter the AFL in many years. Imagine how good he will be when he has a full pre-season under his belt.

[bornadog]

He's an a-grader, but hasn't consistently reached that level.

That is why I simply can't count him as an A-Grader. He is ranked on potential rather than what he has produced. No doubt if he worked hard and become a consistent performer he can be regarded as an A Grader.

[hujsh]

That is why I simply can't count him as an A-Grader. He is ranked on potential rather than what he has produced. No doubt if he worked hard and become a consistent performer he can be regarded as an A Grader.
Does he not work hard? I just hope ‘takes a game console on trips’ isn’t being conflated with ‘has zero work ethic’.

To me its not different to having having a kindle to read or a hard drive of movies to watch. Gaming is just a bit more stigmatised

[bornadog]

Does he not work hard? I just hope ‘takes a game console on trips’ isn’t being conflated with ‘has zero work ethic’.

To me its not different to having having a kindle to read or a hard drive of movies to watch. Gaming is just a bit more stigmatised

Work hard as in training, and playing, putting 100% effort. I don't care what he does on his time off.

[GVGjr]

Read an article in the Hun about Clarko forcing out Burton so that the Hawks could get the player Clarko was demanding.
Given our interest in him as well I thought it might be worth revisiting.

He is a snippet from the article:

The senior coach was hellbent on Wingard, after coaching him in the 2014 International Rules series, and Hawthorn’s list management committee, rightly or wrongly, backed him.

Wingard was a heck of a player, and Clarkson fell in love with the then 25-year-old’s mesmerising talent and polish.

It was the way he could burst out of congestion, slice through the opposition defence and slot goals from anywhere.

Wingard was an All-Australian in his second season in 2013 and that year became the youngest player at Port Adelaide to win the best and fairest in 30 years. He won the mark of the year the following season.

Wingard was a finisher. A matchwinner. One of the best forward-midfielders in the competition.

And at a meeting at the home of footy manager Graham Wright in late 2018, Clarkson told Wingard how bad the Hawks needed him.

Cyril Rioli, the four-time premiership hero, had just retired in dramatic fashion amid a fallout with president Jeff Kennett.

Meanwhile, Port Adelaide had gone a bit cold on Wingard, after some up-and-down form, and Clarkson knew that too.

But the only way the Power was doing a deal on Wingard was if it received Burton plus a first-round draft pick in the deal.

Hawthorn faced a fight to snare Wingard, as there was another club in the mix.

Western Bulldogs also had a keen interest, and arranged a dinner for Wingard and Dogs’ coach Luke Beveridge.

But in one of those massive sliding doors moments, Wingard chose Waverley over Whitten Oval.

It meant the Dogs kept pick seven, and at the draft snaffled one of the best young players in the game, jet midfielder Bailey Smith.

For Hawthorn, the protracted negotiations with Port on Wingard dragged on until the final day of the trade period when about midmorning the club gave up pick 15, 35 and a future-fourth round pick and Burton in exchange for Wingard and a future third.

So nearly 4 years have gone by since Wingard arrived at the Hawks how would you rate the deal?
He's had a few struggles with injuries this year but he was a very good performer last year.
He's certainly a match winner when he is on song but from our perspective picking up Bailey Smith makes up for missing out on Wingard.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think Wingard has been a pretty woeful trade for them. He's a cream on the cake type player, they didn't even have a cake baked. It was a waste.

As a player he promised a lot in his early days and I don't think he's delivered. Those first few seasons at Port were electric - perhaps it's more a case of he didn't choose the right club to flourish.

Would he have been better with us? I'd say undoubtedly, but I'm glad we got Smith instead.

[mjp]

I think Wingard has been a pretty woeful trade for them. He's a cream on the cake type player, they didn't even have a cake baked. It was a waste.

As a player he promised a lot in his early days and I don't think he's delivered. Those first few seasons at Port were electric - perhaps it's more a case of he didn't choose the right club to flourish.

Would he have been better with us? I'd say undoubtedly, but I'm glad we got Smith instead.

Yeah - we have the cake and he would have been AWESOME.

But happy to have Smith and those goals in the final up in Brissy will live long in my memory.

[EasternWest]

We're way ahead, and I was an advocate for giving them pick 7 for Wingard.

[bornadog]

I never rated him :D

[azabob]

I never rated him :D

True, but you rated Liam Jones so you break even at best! ;)

[Grantysghost]

Wingard been ok this season.
17 goals in 10 games reasonable return.

He's certainly not the same player he was at Port.

[1eyedog]

Yeah that's a bad trade for Hawthorn all round. Despite the success he brought the club in the years preceding this trade many Hawks supporters were at a loss re. Clarko's motives on this one.

[GVGjr]

Wingard been ok this season.
17 goals in 10 games reasonable return.

He's certainly not the same player he was at Port.

Thought he had a very good year in 2021 and that was as good as his time at Port.
Unfortunately it's always been more of a challenge for him to play enough games for the Hawks since he arrived and as a result he's not kicking as many goals per season.
2 or 3 games more per season with Hawthorn I think would have stacked up nicely against his successes at Port.

Terrific player who impacts the scoreboard.

[Happy Days]

Yeah I also thought Wingard’s 2021 was really good, with a noticeable improvement in his willingness to apply pressure exiting 50. No one paid any attention to it though because of the state of his club.

Was still a poor move from a list management perspective to give up a top pick for anyone given their position, but Chad himself has played some great footy for them.

[comrade]

Clarko made the classic mistake of trying to prop up a declining list and keep reaching for a flag rather than accurately assessing where they were at and taking his medicine.

Not easy to do after his unbelievable run of success and he probably looked at clubs like Geelong and Sydney as evidence it could be done but they are very much outliers due to their unique appeal to free agents and the way they’re able to manipulate the salary cap (COL money in Sydney / corporate deals / sponsorship etc).

Can’t begrudge him for having a crack and if a few failed moves are the price you pay for the preceding 7-8 years of overwhelming success, you’d pay it every time. They’ll get back on track soon enough, this isn’t a North Melbourne post 1999 scenario… winning is in the club’s DNA

[GVGjr]

Yeah I also thought Wingard’s 2021 was really good, with a noticeable improvement in his willingness to apply pressure exiting 50. No one paid any attention to it though because of the state of his club.

Was still a poor move from a list management perspective to give up a top pick for anyone given their position, but Chad himself has played some great footy for them.

It's one of the reasons why I think coaches have too much of a say in recruitment. Clarkson might have earned that right but Hawks are now in catch-up mode after a couple of years of a top-up approach that haven't quite worked out.

[soupman]

Meh.

I thought it was a pretty decent attempt at keeping a good side good. The odds probably weren't in their favour but they still probably had a 40% chance of being really good still by bringing in mature good players like O'Meara, Mitchell, Wingard etc.