Negativity? LOL. In Bevo we trust!

[mjp]

OK.

So much angst about losing Dahl (who has been average for 2 years), Roughie (who has been average pretty much his whole career - but is by all accounts a ripping bloke) and Adams (who has really done SFA).

I think we all need to chill. Our improvement (and I have already said this) is going to come from our BEST PLAYERS:

Bont.
Boyd.
J-Mac
JJ
Wood

Read those names again. We have the best young mid/leader in the game (though I admit, Cripps is pretty good). We have an elite ball winner who basically cannot be stopped. The single best running half back in the game. A top 5 intercept marker. An elite tall who can play ruck AND forward and has proven he has big game ability.

That list doesn't include the reigning B&F winner, the reigning leading goal-kicker or a host of other PREMIERSHIP PLAYERS who are still short of their 23rd birthday. AND it doesn't include our 2x first round (yep, TWO FIRST ROUND PICKS) from last year - who were both AMAZING in their debut seasons (Naughton and Richards) or a young ruckman who no-one here would be prepared to give away for almost any price.

...and...we have this guy as coach who might do some - well, kinda weird stuff - but who has already delivered a premiership.

I'm calling it now - we WILL play finals last year and there wont be too many teams looking forward to meeting us there...

So everyone just calm the hell down!

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I’m with you mjp if we can just get them on the park.

[Eastdog]

Yes I still reckon it will be tough to make the 8 depending on what the teams around us on the ladder do but I think we are every chance to play finals next year if we get some more improvement in players and less injuries will help massively.

Will have an 'easier' draw as well which gives us a chance.

I would like to see Bailey Dale get some form back.

[Bulldog Joe]

Thanks mjp.

I have felt that we are ready to push for finals based on the last month of footy, but it is frustrating that we are the ones who cannot add mature talent.

I see Lloyd and Duryea as nothing additions that only provide depth.

If we can play Bont midfield, without him needing to also be our saviour forward, we can be there.

[hujsh]

I guess one way to gain perspective is to ask what will improve us more between getting the players we have fit and in form or getting one or two big recruits into an injured out of sorts team.

Perhaps getting our fitness team sorted is the best coup we can pull this off season? (I have no idea how one does such a thing though)

[bulldogtragic]

I guess one way to gain perspective is to ask what will improve us more between getting the players we have fit and in form or getting one or two big recruits into an injured out of sorts team.

Perhaps getting our fitness team sorted is the best coup we can pull this off season? (I have no idea how one does such a thing though)

Recruit the Hawthorn fitness and conditioning guru, which Carlton did a couple of weeks ago after getting former Western Bulldogs footy boss Graham Lowe to review that area of the club and act on his recommendations. If only we knew how to contact Graham or that he did this kind of elite sports and fitness thing.

[GVGjr]

We are underestimating our list just because some other teams got some shiny toys

We have a great blend of talented players along with a list of emerging players many teams would be keen to have

Bontempelli and Macrae are two standout stars, if Liberatore gets his focus again that's huge for us and Johannisen rounds a strong list

We then have the likes of Boyd, Hunter, Dunkley and McLean who could all easily take a step forward next year and we should get a bit more from a fit Easton Wood.

We have reliable soldiers in Trengove, Crozier and Suckling which might now be supported by Duryea and Lloyd and we could have both Picken and Dickson in better form than 2018 and we have a warrior like Morris and a fit Wallis.

Now here is where things get interesting for us

From the class of 2016 we have English, Lipinski, Young and Greene who are all very talented and will be starting their 3rd pre-season with us. From a development point of view that is huge for us. English has plenty of potential, Lipinski got better as the season rolled on and Greene showed something at the back end of the season. Young was always going to take some time but he will be ready next year to take a step forward.

From 2015, I've already mentioned Dunkley but how exciting was Bailey Williams this year who also arrived that year?
From 2014 I've mentioned McLean but we also have Caleb Daniel and hopefully an emerging Bailey Dale and of course Zaine Cordy

Lets then look at two players from the rookie list that have been promoted in Gowers and Lynch. Gowers led our goal kicking and also played in other positions. Lynch has great kicking skills and should get better.

And the topper was getting two diamonds from the 2017 draft in Naughton and Richards and landed Schache via a trade

Fast forward to now, we have pick 7 in what is regarded as a strong draft, we will land a father son pick who has had an impressive TAC and Vic Metro season and we will land at least two more players via the draft.

I get people are disappointed that we didn't do something big during the trade period but the draft is the future for clubs like ours and we will bring in some talented types for sure.

We can make the Bulldogs great again, we can and we will. We've cleared out many of the distracted players and while it might bite us in 2019 we will be right in 12 months time.

A message to Bevo, the coaches and the fitness and development team, it's now time for you all to roll up your sleeves and get to work.

Stick with us fans, it's going to get interesting

[Doc26]

We are underestimating our list just because some other teams got some shiny toys

if Liberatore gets his focus again that's huge for us

If we can lock Bonts contract down early, avoiding the hype and distraction and for some added positivity, and Libba returns to what we all know he can deliver we will make some solid headway next season.

I will be hoping like many that Bailey Smith falls to pick seven to add that outside running class. Will make up for missing Wingard but without carrying a 1m pa overhead.

[GVGjr]

If we can lock Bonts contract down early, avoiding the hype and distraction and for some added positivity, and Libba returns to what we all know he can deliver we will make some solid headway next season.

I will be hoping like many that Bailey Smith falls to pick seven to add that outside running class. Will make up for missing Wingard but without the overhead.

That could easily transform our midfield by landing both Smith and West.

[Doc26]

That could easily transform our midfield by landing both Smith and West.

Can you imagine English tapping down to these guys in time? We would virtually have inherited a Gawn, Viney & Oliver type, and not including our existing and growing stars.

[Eastdog]

I like your sentiment GVGjr.

[bornadog]

I am with MJP, there is so much negativity just because we didn't pick up an A grader from another club. We have our own A graders and so many in the making.

If anyone went to the last game of the year, they would have seen the future right there.

[Mofra]

I see Lloyd and Duryea as nothing additions that only provide depth.
I see Lloyd making us at least a 1 goal per game better side. He's a natural goalkicker, I would have even chased another.

With Schache now locked into the best 22 we finally have an option for the get-out kick down the line and he covers decent ground, we've faced a HF black hole for a long time and now we have at least something there. That improves the way we move the ball all over the ground.
Wallis is our new Clay Smith - slowish contested forward who is vital in our structure as we score a higher % of goals from stoppages than most other sides.
Gowers is a natural goal kicker. Came from the clouds.

If we can cobble together some semblance of a forwardline - and we have a new forwards coach so hopefully new ideas - we will be a threat.

[AshMac]

I’d put Collingwood and essendons midfield (w Shiel) ahead of ours as promising young midfields. We have a lot of promise and upside but don’t see us as a genuine contender next year.

As for Bevo, the man is literally a god after 2016 to us. I think he has a vision and we’re working toward it. We’ll improve in 2019 but so will 15 other clubs. He gets an absolute A+ for not coming out in the media this year to devalue a player before draft period though.

[1eyedog]

I see Lloyd making us at least a 1 goal per game better side. He's a natural goalkicker, I would have even chased another.

With Schache now locked into the best 22 we finally have an option for the get-out kick down the line and he covers decent ground, we've faced a HF black hole for a long time and now we have at least something there. That improves the way we move the ball all over the ground.
Wallis is our new Clay Smith - slowish contested forward who is vital in our structure as we score a higher % of goals from stoppages than most other sides.
Gowers is a natural goal kicker. Came from the clouds.

If we can cobble together some semblance of a forwardline - and we have a new forwards coach so hopefully new ideas - we will be a threat.

Agreed. If the number of times we entered F50 with little return over the past two years is any indication we should start to capitalise on our opportunities with Lloyd, Gowers, Schache et al. in F50. A fit Dickson and Picken make us more a threat in the forward half as well. We have options. Our list is actually looking more balanced than it has in a long time. Our ability to score does still largely depend on the pressure the opposition exerts in the midfield but we showed at the back end of last year that our midfield still has the ability to win contested possession and apply enormous pressure. We certainly get plenty of it so we will have our opportunities again.

Say what you want about Lloyd's defensive capabilities but he's a nice long kick and has a knack for kicking goals.

[Webby]

Sit back for a moment and consider what having the youngest list in the comp and fielding the youngest team in the comp for all of 2018 means....

It means that there is a glut of players with collective improvement in them.

English will only get better, as will Williams, Dale, Richards, Schache, Young, Dunkley, Cordy, Boyd, Bont, McLean, Lipinski, Greene & Lynch... They’re all pre peak... which is scary for Naughton and Bont...

Then consider that Libba and Picken can only provide more than they have this year - pretty much by definition.

Then consider that just about all of our list except for Morris, Dickson and maybe Wood are still in their peak years, its hard not to see us being well in the up.

So with that huge core of our list still to peak, if and when it does click, look out! Finally, we effectively have two first round draft picks - which gives us an advantage over most other clubs.

Most other lists are in plateau or are declining territory. Our investment in youth will only pay off over the next 12-24 months.

Then consider that Jong, Hunter, Macrae, Jojo etc. have many years of prime ahead of them and, list wise, I think we’re the best set up we have been for 12-15 years. And that includes the obvious successes. Bullish.com!

[SquirrelGrip]

I think we’re the best set up we have been for 12-15 years. And that includes the obvious successes. Bullish.com!

Yes, that’s our slogan for Season 2019: BULLISH!

[Mofra]

Then consider that just about all of our list except for Morris, Dickson and maybe Wood are still in their peak years, its hard not to see us being well in the up.

For mine Wood was horribly mismanaged last pre-season and it really impacted negatively on his year. If he's actually spending pre-season as a backman - his best position and where he's been AA standard in the past - he will be a much better player for it.

Mentioned elsewhere, but Richards surely takes Dahl's wing with stints forward. He's a substantial upgrade in pretty much every facet of the game, save for getting up after getting knocked down which Dahl was supreme in. We don't need Richards back - JJ is elite there so should play there, with Suckling rotating through and Duryea an option. Crozier plays tall and short and intercepts like Wood.

[Cyberdoggie]

I have total trust in Beveridge now more than ever.

He has shown that he isn't just a nice guy and he has the mental fortitude to stick to his guns and make the hard decisions for the betterment of the moving forward. If that means getting rid of fan favourites who have probably given us their best already, or those who maybe don't have the commitment required, then so be it. So often in the past we would of never let a club move on fan favourites but I think we are a little more mature now and can handle it. Well most of us can anyway.


I love GVGjr's comment about not getting any shiny new toys. People don't seem to get excited about developing what you already have. It's much easier to get excited about the new apple iPhone we just bought, at least until the novelty wears off.

This thread is about getting excited so let's get excited about pick 7!
We are going to get top class kid, maybe Bailey Smith or one of the King brothers from all accounts. I'm tipping we won't be so upset that we didn't get Wingard half way through next year.

[Dancin' Douggy]

These are pretty much my thoughts exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.



We are underestimating our list just because some other teams got some shiny toys

We have a great blend of talented players along with a list of emerging players many teams would be keen to have

Bontempelli and Macrae are two standout stars, if Liberatore gets his focus again that's huge for us and Johannisen rounds a strong list

We then have the likes of Boyd, Hunter, Dunkley and McLean who could all easily take a step forward next year and we should get a bit more from a fit Easton Wood.

We have reliable soldiers in Trengove, Crozier and Suckling which might now be supported by Duryea and Lloyd and we could have both Picken and Dickson in better form than 2018 and we have a warrior like Morris and a fit Wallis.

Now here is where things get interesting for us

From the class of 2016 we have English, Lipinski, Young and Greene who are all very talented and will be starting their 3rd pre-season with us. From a development point of view that is huge for us. English has plenty of potential, Lipinski got better as the season rolled on and Greene showed something at the back end of the season. Young was always going to take some time but he will be ready next year to take a step forward.

From 2015, I've already mentioned Dunkley but how exciting was Bailey Williams this year who also arrived that year?
From 2014 I've mentioned McLean but we also have Caleb Daniel and hopefully an emerging Bailey Dale and of course Zaine Cordy

Lets then look at two players from the rookie list that have been promoted in Gowers and Lynch. Gowers led our goal kicking and also played in other positions. Lynch has great kicking skills and should get better.

And the topper was getting two diamonds from the 2017 draft in Naughton and Richards and landed Schache via a trade

Fast forward to now, we have pick 7 in what is regarded as a strong draft, we will land a father son pick who has had an impressive TAC and Vic Metro season and we will land at least two more players via the draft.

I get people are disappointed that we didn't do something big during the trade period but the draft is the future for clubs like ours and we will bring in some talented types for sure.

We can make the Bulldogs great again, we can and we will. We've cleared out many of the distracted players and while it might bite us in 2019 we will be right in 12 months time.

A message to Bevo, the coaches and the fitness and development team, it's now time for you all to roll up your sleeves and get to work.

Stick with us fans, it's going to get interesting

[GVGjr]

I have total trust in Beveridge now more than ever.

He has shown that he isn't just a nice guy and he has the mental fortitude to stick to his guns and make the hard decisions for the betterment of the moving forward. If that means getting rid of fan favourites who have probably given us their best already, or those who maybe don't have the commitment required, then so be it. So often in the past we would of never let a club move on fan favourites but I think we are a little more mature now and can handle it. Well most of us can anyway.


I love GVGjr's comment about not getting any shiny new toys. People don't seem to get excited about developing what you already have. It's much easier to get excited about the new apple iPhone we just bought, at least until the novelty wears off.

This thread is about getting excited so let's get excited about pick 7!
We are going to get top class kid, maybe Bailey Smith or one of the King brothers from all accounts. I'm tipping we won't be so upset that we didn't get Wingard half way through next year.

I'm going to be very honest here but I didn't think Bevo was overly impressive when he arrived at the club. He took a very good list that wasn't getting on that well with the previous coach and got them playing attacking football. It wasn't that much harder than that. I was particularly appalled with the way we went about the 2017 season and I felt like a lot of that rested on Bevo shoulders. He should have sent a player or two back to Footscray until the playing group got the message but he didn't however, come the end of the year and knowing that the club had lost the focus he went about resetting that. Stringer was gone and it shook up the supporters and made us the focus in the media but in the end I think most of us knew it was the right course. Things didn't improve though this year and once again I think there was some very honest comments made to some in the group at the end of the season which fast tracked their departure. Bevo led that charge

Attitude is everything in the AFL. GWS have proven that more often than not talent will only take you so far.

We brought in players with great attitudes like Trengove, Crozier and now Duryea and Lloyd and hopefully our other leaders like Wood, Bontempelli, Macrae, Hunter, Wallis, Dunkley, JJ, Picken, Dickson and Morris can all work with our talented youngsters on getting back a team first culture.

It's going to sound bad but I think Bevo has a better grasp now than when he first arrived. He had an easy ride to the ultimate success and now after two very disappointing years I think he has just arrived at the starting block and is ready to get us moving forward again. I loved the way he was heading down to the interchange area early in quarters when things weren't working. He's got the hunger back and the playing group will pick up on that and follow his lead.

With the experience of the roller coaster of performances we have had I genuinely believe he's now ready to get us moving forward again.

[mjp]

I’d put Collingwood and essendons midfield (w Shiel) ahead of ours as promising young midfields.


Why?

Bont and Macrae are better than anyone either of those sides can roll out - Sidebottom is the only challenger and he is 27 not 22.

Shiel - all the heavy lifting has been done at the Giants by Ward and Coniglio...he has had the easiest job in footy - sliding in between those two as an inside mid and behind Whitfield and Kelly on the outside...Essendon paid overs.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Why?

Bont and Macrae are better than anyone either of those sides can roll out - Sidebottom is the only challenger and he is 27 not 22.

Shiel - all the heavy lifting has been done at the Giants by Ward and Coniglio...he has had the easiest job in footy - sliding in between those two as an inside mid and behind Whitfield and Kelly on the outside...Essendon paid overs.

I still don't see how essendon addressed their problem of inside mids. Shiel is not an inside mid. They are just after the shiniest toy on the self. Not surprised they overpaid given Shiel's shiny hair.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Why?

Bont and Macrae are better than anyone either of those sides can roll out - Sidebottom is the only challenger and he is 27 not 22.

Shiel - all the heavy lifting has been done at the Giants by Ward and Coniglio...he has had the easiest job in footy - sliding in between those two as an inside mid and behind Whitfield and Kelly on the outside...Essendon paid overs.

Couldnt agree more with this

We may not be at the top now in terms of midfields, but we have more scope for growth and improvement than any of the others

Essendon paid overs, and Im not convinced it has made them better than us anyway

[jeemak]

Agree with a lot of the sentiments added here. The key things that stand out as areas where we could be exposed are:

1. Hubris - I am all for trying new things but I don't want to see another preseason where clear strengths of players and how they benefit the team are so readily avoided.

2. Culture - Hopefully our list management and coaching teams have the balance right, and the right players on the list to take us forward as a committed and united team

3. Injuries - We need to have our best players on the park as regularly as possible, and consistency in our second and third tier contributors. The difference between a semblance of continuity in best 22 and otherwise was stark these past two years

4. Incremental improvement - there's no point in being the youngest side in the competition and expecting positive development to just happen. Players and coaches alike have a huge responsibility these coming 12-24 months to ensure stagnation seen at times these past couple of years isn't repeated

As for our trade period recruits, it will be interesting to see if those incumbent on the list can keep them out of the side next year. Assuming each of the former don't suffer injuries or substantial lapses in form, we should be going OK if they can't crack a spot in the team.

[AshMac]

Why?

Bont and Macrae are better than anyone either of those sides can roll out - Sidebottom is the only challenger and he is 27 not 22.

Shiel - all the heavy lifting has been done at the Giants by Ward and Coniglio...he has had the easiest job in footy - sliding in between those two as an inside mid and behind Whitfield and Kelly on the outside...Essendon paid overs.

Not disagreeing with our potential, but don’t think we’re there. Bottom line we have 2 genuine A grade mids now - Bont and Macrae. I think McClean, Libba, Williams (love him) and even wally are each capable of getting there.

Compare that with pies - treloar, Adams, de goey all kids, then load pendles, sidebottom and beams on top - I think they are the best midfield in the comp.

As for shiel - he is elite. I think he is a great mix of inside and outside work. Coniglio has been injured a lot before 2018, so I think shiel, ward and kelly have carried their midfield of late. Big loss for giants IMO.

[mjp]

Not disagreeing with our potential, but don’t think we’re there. Bottom line we have 2 genuine A grade mids now - Bont and Macrae. I think McClean, Libba, Williams (love him) and even wally are each capable of getting there.

OK. If you are including Libba then we have THREE genuine 'a' grade mids...and you have left out Hunter (B+F winner) and Dunkley who was awesome playing inside the game this year, and Caleb Daniel...basically you are talking about a group of guys who outperformed/out-hustled the Josh Kennedy Swan's (featuring newly minted Brownlow Medallist Tom Mitchell) on GF day 2x years ago...



Compare that with pies - treloar, Adams, de goey all kids, then load pendles, sidebottom and beams on top - I think they are the best midfield in the comp.

I hear this. A lot. So...where were all those so called midfield guns on Grand Final day? Getting beaten by a WC midfield featuring Shuey, Yeo, Sheed, Redden and Hutchings...

Sidebottom was tagged out of it, Pendlebury unsighted, Adams was EPIC, De Goey anchored to the goal-square...their 2nd best mid was Sier who is just a kid and will battle for centre square time with Beams coming in. Just like Ablett going to Geelong, adding more of what you've already got doesn't necessarily improve the stew.




As for shiel - he is elite. I think he is a great mix of inside and outside work. Coniglio has been injured a lot before 2018, so I think shiel, ward and kelly have carried their midfield of late. Big loss for giants IMO.

Actually, Coniglio was injured in 2017...apart from that, he has been ultra reliable! I'm sure Shiel will play some good games for Essendon but how is he the solution to what ails them?

[Ghost Dog]

Good OP. Well, you give Richmond a close shave at the arse end of the year, ( with a bunch of kids no less) you know you are on the right track. Billy Gowers is a great young player and very excited to see how he develops. I heard that he played through injury well this season and he seems like a very tough nut. Our team cohesion seems good between different types of players.
Caleb Daniel could also have a break out year and do some serious work down there at half back.

[AshMac]

OK. If you are including Libba then we have THREE genuine 'a' grade mids...and you have left out Hunter (B+F winner) and Dunkley who was awesome playing inside the game this year, and Caleb Daniel...basically you are talking about a group of guys who outperformed/out-hustled the Josh Kennedy Swan's (featuring newly minted Brownlow Medallist Tom Mitchell) on GF day 2x years ago...



I hear this. A lot. So...where were all those so called midfield guns on Grand Final day? Getting beaten by a WC midfield featuring Shuey, Yeo, Sheed, Redden and Hutchings...

Sidebottom was tagged out of it, Pendlebury unsighted, Adams was EPIC, De Goey anchored to the goal-square...their 2nd best mid was Sier who is just a kid and will battle for centre square time with Beams coming in. Just like Ablett going to Geelong, adding more of what you've already got doesn't necessarily improve the stew.




Actually, Coniglio was injured in 2017...apart from that, he has been ultra reliable! I'm sure Shiel will play some good games for Essendon but how is he the solution to what ails them?

For me, Libba hasn’t been genuine A grade since 2016, it’s a real shame he went down this year as it would have been great to see his output in a year when his preseason was clearly better than the year before and by all accounts his head was in the game! So I’m sticking w McRae and Bont as the two genuine A graders we have today. Forgot about Dunkley - unless he improves his disposal though I’d rate him a B+ - above average but not elite. Hunter isn’t an A grader IMO, regardless of B&F, says everything that a first year player came 4th even though I’m delighted w Naughtons progress and year.

As for the pies midfield - I measure teams on consistent performances, not a single game. The GF means nothing to me in terms of assessing a teams actual midfield quality - the pies have depth and they have elite talent in there in spades. Doesn’t mean they’ll win GFs. Collingwood produced some outstanding performances across the year from thier midfield and through finals. Maybe we’ll be better than them one day but right now, and for next year we won’t in that part of the ground.

Coniglio has played 2 full seasons in 7 years! far from ultra reliable. Again - Shiel is equal
Part inside and outside for mine, he will slot nicely into thier structure but isn’t the ultimate answer and they paid overs big time. Given thier list though - Merrett, Heppell, McGrath (maybe tier 2) Sheil - even thier tier 2 zaharakas, Smith, stringer, parish can be damaging - I still see them as ahead of us today.

[mjp]

The GF means nothing to me in terms of assessing a teams actual midfield quality.


Ok. See - I’m pretty sure it means EVERYTHING. They were unable to deliver against a group including a couple of ‘replacement level’ mids (at best!) in Hutchings and Redden.

So tired about the hype over Collingwood’s mids...they have made one finals series in 4 years and were killed in the gf...they NEVER travel interstate and have things on their own terms at the mcg every week. Good stats and positive publicity does not mean they are a great midfield.

As for SC, he has played at least 18 games in 4 of his last 6 years...what exactly do you want?

[Twodogs]

For me, Libba hasn’t been genuine A grade since 2016, it’s a real shame he went down this year as it would have been great to see his output in a year when his preseason was clearly better than the year before and by all accounts his head was in the game! So I’m sticking w McRae and Bont as the two genuine A graders we have today. Forgot about Dunkley - unless he improves his disposal though I’d rate him a B+ - above average but not elite. Hunter isn’t an A grader IMO, regardless of B&F, says everything that a first year player came 4th even though I’m delighted w Naughtons progress and year.

As for the pies midfield - I measure teams on consistent performances, not a single game. The GF means nothing to me in terms of assessing a teams actual midfield quality - the pies have depth and they have elite talent in there in spades. Doesn’t mean they’ll win GFs. Collingwood produced some outstanding performances across the year from thier midfield and through finals. Maybe we’ll be better than them one day but right now, and for next year we won’t in that part of the ground.

Coniglio has played 2 full seasons in 7 years! far from ultra reliable. Again - Shiel is equal
Part inside and outside for mine, he will slot nicely into thier structure but isn’t the ultimate answer and they paid overs big time. Given thier list though - Merrett, Heppell, McGrath (maybe tier 2) Sheil - even thier tier 2 zaharakas, Smith, stringer, parish can be damaging - I still see them as ahead of us today.


If you can't perform on Grand Final day then it doesn't really matter how well you play in the other matches. It's GF day that counts,anything else us just a tease.

[AshMac]

Ok. See - I’m pretty sure it means EVERYTHING. They were unable to deliver against a group including a couple of ‘replacement level’ mids (at best!) in Hutchings and Redden.

So tired about the hype over Collingwood’s mids...they have made one finals series in 4 years and were killed in the gf...they NEVER travel interstate and have things on their own terms at the mcg every week. Good stats and positive publicity does not mean they are a great midfield.

As for SC, he has played at least 18 games in 4 of his last 6 years...what exactly do you want?

If we were talking about glory you’d have a point, but we’re not, we’re talking about form.

Personally I don’t think one game is enough to call a team on form, might be the GF but it’s still one game. Over the year they were good in the middle, better than us. Next year likely the same.

In honesty, I’d call cogs and sheil pretty even for contribution but suggesting Sheil has had the easiest job in footy because cogs did the heavy lifting is absurd. I’d have him at the dogs in a heartbeat.

[Rocket Science]

Call me a negative Nellie but everyone recalls the kind of 2018 season we trotted out prior to the last month of it, right?

[EasternWest]

Call me a negative Nellie but everyone recalls the kind of 2018 season we trotted out prior to the last month of it, right?

I do. I'm negative about a lot of last year but positive about what we're working towards.

That work for you?

[bulldogtragic]

I think the answer is far more thoughtful and nuanced than pure winning, losing or positive/negative. I will do my best to explain what I mean.

The October-November period is trade and draft. The overall rating has to be overall. But Act 1 Trade, and Act 2 Draft can be independtaly assessed. So the overall period is yet to be determined. The trade period I don't think was a huge success. The old adage is you draft the best, and trade for need. The outgoing players compensation/trade didn't serve a current deficiency in the playing list. Of the incoming, I don't think I can say Duryea addressed a need, but Lloyd addresses one at a lower level. So we weren't able to address our list needs in a substantive way. At the same time, we didn't piss pick 7 away despite bullshit offers trying us on (nice try WCE/Geelong). We didn't stock up on list cloggers trying to satisfy the media pundits that we were aggressive. Missing Wingard did suck, no sugar coating it. I don't mind the Adams trade, we got our initial investment back and probably 200+ draft points next year. Dahl for 27 wasn't too far off the mark considering the AFEL manipulated the compo last year for Geelong and Ablett. Two wrongs wouldn't make a right, just highlights the corruption within this process and the AFEL. I guess the intangible factor is Dahl is gone to piss and moan on Instagram elsewhere and Adams can be miserable about his current club at another club. While doing the right thing by Roughy, a good club man. Culture is a factor too to a degree.

So all up we didn't address the needs as discussed. But we did strengthen our draft hand this year and next year, which is good considering we have West, Khamis, Kellett & Liberatore as potential linked players. Not inspiring but it's par. I don't think it's time to microwave our 2019 memberships, but I wouldn't do the opposite (putting it in the freezer?).

But we are at the intermission heading into Act 2. This is where we can take it from a par by 9th (moving to a golf metaphor), to well under par by the clubhouse. Pick 7 will be a very good player. West coming in guarateed, the high liklihood of Khamis coming in and a pick from 32-53 be it best available/Will Hayes/need based pick brings in the high end talent we desperately need to add in. Pick 7 sounds like a KPF (King), small forward (Rozee) or midfielder (various) - plus West (midfield/forward) & Khamis (athletic rebounder) (maybe Hayes in a Gowers like forward/pinch hit midfield role). So we are addressing needs, unfortunately on the slow version of development and not ready made. If draft night has West going 18+ and Khamis 35+, then the entire period will huge for the club. Which it could.

The other thing is, we've (as I understand it) rolled the Simon Dalrymple called 'Hurley Money' and we didn't commit this year to a Wingard or May. Plus we've cleaned out potential salaries of Dahl, Roughy & Adams (who would've been on OK coin too) (Redders, Biggs, Smith etc too). We may well be on the bare minimum salary cap level this year I'd say. This should allow us to sign Bontempelli to a long term generous deal, sign up the list of kids we need to sign and then still have a shot next trade period at a Kelly type - in addition to Kellett & Liberatore next year and our extra third rounder to use from Adams. Things look very positive on this salary cap front this year and beyond.

It's not all bad, it's not all good, so far as the trade period goes. But it's overall only half way through the round. But nail draft night, develop the kids (I think West could surprise like Dunkley's first year), sign up those we want signed up, headlines by Bontempelli and head into trade and draft period in 2019 with renewed vigour. So yes, we are par to maybe 1 under right now. But the wind is dying down and the opportunity to end the round 4-5 under is there for us. I can understand both the frustrated view and the very optimistic view, they're both right and wrong in a paradoxical sense to me. There's a lot of nuance and grey in between. The trade wasn't great, but it has allowed the draft to be potentially great with a couple of mature depth players and culture fixes. Before I put my membership in the freezer, I want to wait for the draft. But even the pessimist in me, feels quite positive about draft night and what it means going forward.

[Greystache]

Call me a negative Nellie but everyone recalls the kind of 2018 season we trotted out prior to the last month of it, right?

I do, but we were the youngest team to take the field nearly every week last season and we will be younger again next season, so the positive is we will win the youngest team dick measuring contest amongst the supporters of teams that aren't competing for anything else.

I guess you could find a negative in that nearly every part of our strategy seems to revolve around natural improvement as the players get older (goal kicking, injury rates, team cohesion) yet we exit a number of mature players every season and replace them with teenagers from the draft, but we're supposed to be blindly positive, so I'll overlook that inconvenient fact.

Maybe I just don't get as excited as some about the shiny new toy of a bunch of untried kids coming in from the draft. Mostly because I know the reality is half won't make it, a quarter will be battlers, which leaves a quarter (or 1-2 players in real terms) who'll be quality. Adding some mature known quality players would be a massive benefit to the list, but with the way we manage our public relations and our clinical phobia of paying a premium for good players, that's really only an option for other clubs.

[FrediKanoute]

Call me a negative Nellie but everyone recalls the kind of 2018 season we trotted out prior to the last month of it, right?

Yep. It starts in the pre-season. We arrived at the start of season 17 hungover from the joys of 2016. We arrived in 2018 5 weeks underdone, lost Libba and it went backwards from there. We need our conditioning guys to get things right from the off.

[bulldogtragic]

Yep. It starts in the pre-season. We arrived at the start of season 17 hungover from the joys of 2016. We arrived in 2018 5 weeks underdone, lost Libba and it went backwards from there. We need our conditioning guys to get things right from the off.

I'd argue we need new conditioning guys, and should've done already with a clean sweep like Graham Lowe initiated at Carlton. Wingard, May & Shiel or Pick 7, West & Khamis matters little if they're in the rehab groups for stints and multiple stints. The same people, doing the same thing as they've been doing, will wait for it.... Have the same player outcomes and results.

[Sedat]

I'd argue we need new conditioning guys, and should've done already with a clean sweep like Graham Lowe initiated at Carlton. Wingard, May & Shiel or Pick 7, West & Khamis matters little if they're in the rehab groups for stints and multiple stints. The same people, doing the same thing as they've been doing, will wait for it.... Have the same player outcomes and results.
If they take a conservative approach with their injury management and tick all the boxes they should be fine.

[jeemak]

I do, but we were the youngest team to take the field nearly every week last season and we will be younger again next season, so the positive is we will win the youngest team dick measuring contest amongst the supporters of teams that aren't competing for anything else.

I guess you could find a negative in that nearly every part of our strategy seems to revolve around natural improvement as the players get older (goal kicking, injury rates, team cohesion) yet we exit a number of mature players every season and replace them with teenagers from the draft, but we're supposed to be blindly positive, so I'll overlook that inconvenient fact.

Maybe I just don't get as excited as some about the shiny new toy of a bunch of untried kids coming in from the draft. Mostly because I know the reality is half won't make it, a quarter will be battlers, which leaves a quarter (or 1-2 players in real terms) who'll be quality. Adding some mature known quality players would be a massive benefit to the list, but with the way we manage our public relations and our clinical phobia of paying a premium for good players, that's really only an option for other clubs.

You're getting pretty dark these days GS. Reading the flavour of your posts over recent times kind of reminds me of how the Man in Black became what he did in Westworld...….. :)

Savaged by logic that doesn't apply to you, but is seemingly playing out through time and circumstances you have no control over.

Funny thing is, we added two mature players to our list and lost a few. So the test is whether those we added have a bigger impact than those we lost, and in terms of games likely to be played next year I think with Adams being unreliable and Roughead either never getting onto or staying on the park (or not being selected) we only really have the gap Dahl leaves.

So how does the absence of Dahl actually affect us? Materially this is the only area of exposure or loss that this trade period might determine. The club is probably betting on some improvement from younger players developing which I agree, is a bit of an issue without fitness continuity across the group. It's hard for players to develop in a system that is always changing. However, given Libba missed the entire year in 2018 it could be argued that he will bridge the gap.

I must stress that at this point in time I think Libba is completely unreliable across the board physically and mentally, if he falls over what you've stated could be a bit closer to reality than I've accounted for.

[Topdog]

Let's not forget that same Collingwood midfield got smashed West Coast twice in the finals, it wasn't just the GF.

[AshMac]

If you can't perform on Grand Final day then it doesn't really matter how well you play in the other matches. It's GF day that counts,anything else us just a tease.

That’s fair. You also have to get there.

[jeemak]

That’s fair. You also have to get there.

It's bullshit. Ask him how many GF's Kelvin Templeton played in.

[AshMac]

It's bullshit. Ask him how many GF's Kelvin Templeton played in.

Love trivia - but you didn’t give the multiple choice options.

it’s a fair point that if you dont turn up to the big dance it’s all for nought, though definitely not the measure of whether a side or player is good or better than another

[GVGjr]

Call me a negative Nellie but everyone recalls the kind of 2018 season we trotted out prior to the last month of it, right?

It was a tough season no doubt but plenty of players made progress and in time we will be better for it.
Finishing the season on such a positive note has the 'half full' in me looking forward to next season.

[Twodogs]

I do, but we were the youngest team to take the field nearly every week last season and we will be younger again next season, so the positive is we will win the youngest team dick measuring contest amongst the supporters of teams that aren't competing for anything else.

I guess you could find a negative in that nearly every part of our strategy seems to revolve around natural improvement as the players get older (goal kicking, injury rates, team cohesion) yet we exit a number of mature players every season and replace them with teenagers from the draft, but we're supposed to be blindly positive, so I'll overlook that inconvenient fact.

Maybe I just don't get as excited as some about the shiny new toy of a bunch of untried kids coming in from the draft. Mostly because I know the reality is half won't make it, a quarter will be battlers, which leaves a quarter (or 1-2 players in real terms) who'll be quality. Adding some mature known quality players would be a massive benefit to the list, but with the way we manage our public relations and our clinical phobia of paying a premium for good players, that's really only an option for other clubs.

Don't forget luck. We need some luck, or we need not to be unlucky more to the point.


It's bullshit. Ask him how many GF's Kelvin Templeton played in.

Funny thing is I tend to agree, grand finals make the reputation of a player. Earlier in the year GVG suprised me when he and I were discussing who the better player out of Royce Hart and Buddy Franklin was and he said Buddy. My opinion was Hart had it all over Buddy due to his better GF record. But other things like Brownlows and Coleman medals count as well.

Anyway you could have relied on KT to win you a premiership, I know that you could have because he was the sort of player who would get you over the line. He just couldn't drag 19 other players over the line week after week.

[Grantysghost]

I think the answer is far more thoughtful and nuanced than pure winning, losing or positive/negative. I will do my best to explain what I mean.

The October-November period is trade and draft. The overall rating has to be overall. But Act 1 Trade, and Act 2 Draft can be independtaly assessed. So the overall period is yet to be determined. The trade period I don't think was a huge success. The old adage is you draft the best, and trade for need. The outgoing players compensation/trade didn't serve a current deficiency in the playing list. Of the incoming, I don't think I can say Duryea addressed a need, but Lloyd addresses one at a lower level. So we weren't able to address our list needs in a substantive way. At the same time, we didn't piss pick 7 away despite bullshit offers trying us on (nice try WCE/Geelong). We didn't stock up on list cloggers trying to satisfy the media pundits that we were aggressive. Missing Wingard did suck, no sugar coating it. I don't mind the Adams trade, we got our initial investment back and probably 200+ draft points next year. Dahl for 27 wasn't too far off the mark considering the AFEL manipulated the compo last year for Geelong and Ablett. Two wrongs wouldn't make a right, just highlights the corruption within this process and the AFEL. I guess the intangible factor is Dahl is gone to piss and moan on Instagram elsewhere and Adams can be miserable about his current club at another club. While doing the right thing by Roughy, a good club man. Culture is a factor too to a degree.

So all up we didn't address the needs as discussed. But we did strengthen our draft hand this year and next year, which is good considering we have West, Khamis, Kellett & Liberatore as potential linked players. Not inspiring but it's par. I don't think it's time to microwave our 2019 memberships, but I wouldn't do the opposite (putting it in the freezer?).

But we are at the intermission heading into Act 2. This is where we can take it from a par by 9th (moving to a golf metaphor), to well under par by the clubhouse. Pick 7 will be a very good player. West coming in guarateed, the high liklihood of Khamis coming in and a pick from 32-53 be it best available/Will Hayes/need based pick brings in the high end talent we desperately need to add in. Pick 7 sounds like a KPF (King), small forward (Rozee) or midfielder (various) - plus West (midfield/forward) & Khamis (athletic rebounder) (maybe Hayes in a Gowers like forward/pinch hit midfield role). So we are addressing needs, unfortunately on the slow version of development and not ready made. If draft night has West going 18+ and Khamis 35+, then the entire period will huge for the club. Which it could.

The other thing is, we've (as I understand it) rolled the Simon Dalrymple called 'Hurley Money' and we didn't commit this year to a Wingard or May. Plus we've cleaned out potential salaries of Dahl, Roughy & Adams (who would've been on OK coin too) (Redders, Biggs, Smith etc too). We may well be on the bare minimum salary cap level this year I'd say. This should allow us to sign Bontempelli to a long term generous deal, sign up the list of kids we need to sign and then still have a shot next trade period at a Kelly type - in addition to Kellett & Liberatore next year and our extra third rounder to use from Adams. Things look very positive on this salary cap front this year and beyond.

It's not all bad, it's not all good, so far as the trade period goes. But it's overall only half way through the round. But nail draft night, develop the kids (I think West could surprise like Dunkley's first year), sign up those we want signed up, headlines by Bontempelli and head into trade and draft period in 2019 with renewed vigour. So yes, we are par to maybe 1 under right now. But the wind is dying down and the opportunity to end the round 4-5 under is there for us. I can understand both the frustrated view and the very optimistic view, they're both right and wrong in a paradoxical sense to me. There's a lot of nuance and grey in between. The trade wasn't great, but it has allowed the draft to be potentially great with a couple of mature depth players and culture fixes. Before I put my membership in the freezer, I want to wait for the draft. But even the pessimist in me, feels quite positive about draft night and what it means going forward.

Possibly the most sensible post I've ever read on a forum. Great work BT!

[mjp]

If we were talking about glory you’d have a point, but we’re not, we’re talking about form.

Personally I don’t think one game is enough to call a team on form, might be the GF but it’s still one game. Over the year they were good in the middle, better than us. Next year likely the same.

In honesty, I’d call cogs and sheil pretty even for contribution but suggesting Sheil has had the easiest job in footy because cogs did the heavy lifting is absurd. I’d have him at the dogs in a heartbeat.

So...

1/. The media and Champion Data have been in love with the Collingwood midfield for a little while now. And they put up big numbers...but before this year they basically didn't win any games and then fell apart this year when it mattered most.

I still point to the way Richmond (albeit for a short time so far - 2 years) transformed their midfield through (primarily) Cotchin's willingness to take on more of the defensive heavy lifting. Who in Collingwood's midfield group does that? Sidebottom? Pendlebury? Neither - they have to bring in the likes of Greenwood (an attacking, ball-in-hand negative) to cover that gap...it also sends the message to the others that they don't need to do quite as much. Sidebottom - as good as he is - runs back to become an outlet player, not to defend. Until they change the group/mindset of the group, well, they are not going to change. To me, Beams makes the problem worse, not better.

2/. Shiel IS NOT WHAT WE NEED! There is a reason the Giants asked him to 'explore his options' a year out from contract expiry...they didn't have any intention of re-signing him. You don't need to be a genius to understand they have looked at their list, understand they are going to have to 'lose' a few and prioritised the ones they want to keep. Notice they didn't encourage Coniglio or Kelly to explore their options...we can debate this for days but the answer that Coniglio >>>>> Shiels will be the one that comes back time and time again.

With the 'I would love him (Shiel) at the Dogs' comment, well if you bring him to the 'Dogs then someone else - Macrae? Hunter? - has to go out. You need a balanced group - not a 'collection' of mids. The Lions Fab 4 - Aker, Voss, Lappin, Black - had their butts continuously covered by Hart and Brad Scott. The WC Kerr/Judd/Cousins triplet were covered by Rowan Jones and Chick. You need a defensively oriented player in there OR you need (like the Tiges example above) one of the leaders to really take that responsibility on and drag the others along with...ask the Geelong boys how Ablett, Dangerfield, Selwood, Kelly worked out for them??

If you want to talk about the Essendon mids, who exactly is going to do that? That side plays one-way footy already...and they add Shiel? What they need is a defensively minded stoppage player who is capable of going head to head with the likes of Tom Mitchell, splitting the clearances and limiting his atg influence. If you want to talk about the Collingwood side, they don't need Beams. They NEED someone to play on the likes of Kennedy (WCE), McDonald (Melb) and now Lynch (Richmond). Who is going to do that? If Collingwood wanted a mid, they should have identified a Harmes (Melbourne) type...otherwise, they NEED a key defender.

[China Dog]

Great post. Let's see how the draft pans out.

[AshMac]

So...

1/. The media and Champion Data have been in love with the Collingwood midfield for a little while now. And they put up big numbers...but before this year they basically didn't win any games and then fell apart this year when it mattered most.

I still point to the way Richmond (albeit for a short time so far - 2 years) transformed their midfield through (primarily) Cotchin's willingness to take on more of the defensive heavy lifting. Who in Collingwood's midfield group does that? Sidebottom? Pendlebury? Neither - they have to bring in the likes of Greenwood (an attacking, ball-in-hand negative) to cover that gap...it also sends the message to the others that they don't need to do quite as much. Sidebottom - as good as he is - runs back to become an outlet player, not to defend. Until they change the group/mindset of the group, well, they are not going to change. To me, Beams makes the problem worse, not better.

2/. Shiel IS NOT WHAT WE NEED! There is a reason the Giants asked him to 'explore his options' a year out from contract expiry...they didn't have any intention of re-signing him. You don't need to be a genius to understand they have looked at their list, understand they are going to have to 'lose' a few and prioritised the ones they want to keep. Notice they didn't encourage Coniglio or Kelly to explore their options...we can debate this for days but the answer that Coniglio >>>>> Shiels will be the one that comes back time and time again.

With the 'I would love him (Shiel) at the Dogs' comment, well if you bring him to the 'Dogs then someone else - Macrae? Hunter? - has to go out. You need a balanced group - not a 'collection' of mids. The Lions Fab 4 - Aker, Voss, Lappin, Black - had their butts continuously covered by Hart and Brad Scott. The WC Kerr/Judd/Cousins triplet were covered by Rowan Jones and Chick. You need a defensively oriented player in there OR you need (like the Tiges example above) one of the leaders to really take that responsibility on and drag the others along with...ask the Geelong boys how Ablett, Dangerfield, Selwood, Kelly worked out for them??

If you want to talk about the Essendon mids, who exactly is going to do that? That side plays one-way footy already...and they add Shiel? What they need is a defensively minded stoppage player who is capable of going head to head with the likes of Tom Mitchell, splitting the clearances and limiting his atg influence. If you want to talk about the Collingwood side, they don't need Beams. They NEED someone to play on the likes of Kennedy (WCE), McDonald (Melb) and now Lynch (Richmond). Who is going to do that? If Collingwood wanted a mid, they should have identified a Harmes (Melbourne) type...otherwise, they NEED a key defender.

I’m getting the impression we both enjoy a good debate which can be dangerous if there is a good bone to chew on 😉

context is getting a little lost though now.

Agree w the hallmarks of a good midfield and agree Shiel isn’t the ultimate answer for us.

I rate the pies midified over ours (can’t believe I’ve forgotten grundy until now), that’s all. They choked on the day, but gee they’re classy, rack up quality touches and had a strong year this year.

And - I’d love sheil at the dogs, but not sure we’d lose one as we’ll be in a strong position to pay Bont his dues and go hard at a big name next year if relevant. Sheil wouldn’t be the only player, just one of them. I also think he is hard at it, the most consistent of the GWS midfield cohort bar Ward (which kills me) and is the perfect mix of inside and outside class. He’s a weapon and has been a great player for GWS (top 10 B&F in 6 of his 7 years), but also not the only player Essendon need for glory. Also rate thier midfield over ours.

[FrediKanoute]

So...
If you want to talk about the Essendon mids, who exactly is going to do that? That side plays one-way footy already...and they add Shiel? What they need is a defensively minded stoppage player who is capable of going head to head with the likes of Tom Mitchell, splitting the clearances and limiting his atg influence. If you want to talk about the Collingwood side, they don't need Beams. They NEED someone to play on the likes of Kennedy (WCE), McDonald (Melb) and now Lynch (Richmond). Who is going to do that? If Collingwood wanted a mid, they should have identified a Harmes (Melbourne) type...otherwise, they NEED a key defender.

Isn't this the role the have recruited Roughie for?

[Topdog]

They didn't just choke on GF day, got smashed by the WC midfield 3 weeks before

[Topdog]

Isn't this the role the have recruited Roughie for?

Rough isn't a key backman

[bornadog]

Rough isn't a key backman

Worst decision by a coach ever.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Really enjoyed reading this thread.
MJP. You bring your 1st hand coaching, game plan analysis that cuts through the noise that armchair numpty's like myself bring whenever i try and critique our performace on match day.
I'd love to see you provide this analysis regularly in a pre/post game analysis during the season. It really makes interesting reading.
Your assessments given in this thread, for example on Collingwoods mids.. really way more interesting than any of the writing you come across in the so-called expert media.
Would love to read more of this stuff.
Maybe even pre season 2019 you could do an analysis of our list, game plan.
I know we're all time poor and no pressure on you, but again, I've really been fascinated by your comments here. So thanks for taking the time.
And that's not to dismiss others contributions here at all

[FrediKanoute]

Worst decision by a coach ever.

Then why did they recruit ROughie?

[bornadog]

Then why did they recruit ROughie?

Will be interesting to see where they play him.

I thought when Roughie was pushed out of the ruck, as a young up and coming player it did not help his development one bit.

[bornadog]

Call me a negative Nellie but everyone recalls the kind of 2018 season we trotted out prior to the last month of it, right?

The positives to come out of 2018 is the last few weeks, especially the way the midfield performed.

We had Macrae, Hunter, The Bont and Dunkley all picking up over 30 disposals in each game and even 40 each in one game over, the last 3 or 4 weeks.

Against the Tigers, Macrae 43, Hunter 35, Bont 29, Dunkley 28.

The other positives to come out of it was another years worth of experience and development. Yes we were the youngest team in 2018, and no it is not a dick comparing comp, it is the reason we lost so many games.

Pump in some experience, more development and 2019 is looking good.

[Rocket Science]

Yep, you get the feeling we've bottomed out and are broadly tracking in the right direction, but must be noted the achievements of that last month that helped soothe a diabolical year were against Carlton, St.Kilda, a pretty crap North outfit and a distracted Richmond.

We'll get there I think, but it's going to be a long, patient build back to anything resembling a flag threat.

[mjp]

We'll get there I think, but it's going to be a long, patient build back to anything resembling a flag threat.

OK. I refuse to accept this is the case.

We should be competing in 2019. I really don't see why we shouldn't...

I don't want to debate this for the sake of it or go around and around in circles - pretty sure my 'willingness' to do so has already been mentioned on this thread - but we shouldn't need patience. Anything less than top 8 and at least one finals win (or positive performance in a final similar to 2015) should be seen as an abject failure.

Bevo saw the need to re-create the team post-flag. I didn't really get it/understand it but it's done now. No more excuses.

[Rocket Science]

Hey, I'm in complete agreement. I don't *want* to wait, but I just think we're going to have to, unless a lot of things magically click into place.

As I see it, there are three critical hurdles we're going to have to clear to get there; our inexperience, our injury plague and our inability to kick scores and forward craft in general. If we somehow crack the trifecta who knows? I'm just not sure we should hold our collective breath, for the coming season at least.

[GVGjr]

Hey, I'm in complete agreement. I don't *want* to wait, but I just think we're going to have to, unless a lot of things magically click into place.

As I see it, there are three critical hurdles we're going to have to clear to get there; our inexperience, our injury plague and our inability to kick scores and forward craft in general. If we somehow crack the trifecta who knows? I'm just not sure we should hold our collective breath, for the coming season at least.

I think you have nailed the three area's for concern.

Getting and keeping our players fit is a key one for us as I'm sure we have all had enough with the ongoing theme of "conservatively managing players" with the injuries. While I'm reluctant to say we had bad luck with injuries I think a repeat again next season of the almost revolving door into the medico's will be a reflection of bad management.

Ironically if we get the above right the inexperienced list that was often highlighted after a loss this year is substantially diminished.

And finally the issue of keeping the scoreboard ticking over, we just can't have a repeat of the dry spells we endured last year.

Bevo has the players to get improved results next year, I'm confident that we can prepare this list for a long run of successful seasons.

[MrMahatma]

I don’t think it should be a slow build. We have the talent to be in finals. The vast majority of our list should be better next year than they were last. Many of those should be about to have break out seasons.

Id have loved Wingard as I feel our list just needs tweaking to be ready for a tilt again.

[boydogs]

Will be interesting to see where they play him

Roughead has always been a 2nd ruck IMO. Good around the ground but not strong enough for the ruck and too slow for defense

[AshMac]

Hey, I'm in complete agreement. I don't *want* to wait, but I just think we're going to have to, unless a lot of things magically click into place.

As I see it, there are three critical hurdles we're going to have to clear to get there; our inexperience, our injury plague and our inability to kick scores and forward craft in general. If we somehow crack the trifecta who knows? I'm just not sure we should hold our collective breath, for the coming season at least.

Yep - you’ve nailed the key areas of improvement. Makes winning 2016 with loads of injuries, a young team and inefficient fwd 50 entries (just lots and lots of them) even more special.

[Mantis]

Roughead has always been a 2nd ruck IMO. Good around the ground but not strong enough for the ruck and too slow for defense

But he won't take Mason Cox's spot so he either plays in defence or not at all.

[GVGjr]

Anyone else starting to get a bit excited at the prospect of Picken and Liberatore back on the track early and hopefully a refreshed Tory Dickson?

Picken looks to be in ripping condition and if Libba gets that hunger back that will be great news for us.

[josie]

Excited and worried. Libba and Picko will add immeasurably to our leadership, mongrel and class. And Dicko is not only a great goal kicker he is very crafty (those sneaky goals in finals in ‘16 when he quickly and sneakily stood up and scuppered a goal were imo as brilliant as a lot of Stringer’s plays) but it seems so long since he has put a string of games together (no pun intended). Another one I am nervous about is Wood. I felt he started to return to good form when he returned and played last few games last year, however whenever he runs I pray he does not ping yet another hammy.

If these four can regain their form and play most games along with Bonti, Maclean, Macrae, JJ, Cordy and Naughton I reckon we are a finals bound. Oh, and goodness forbid if 1 or more of Boyd, English and Trengrove suffer major injuries or drop in ruck form.

[AshMac]

Anyone else starting to get a bit excited at the prospect of Picken and Liberatore back on the track early and hopefully a refreshed Tory Dickson?

Picken looks to be in ripping condition and if Libba gets that hunger back that will be great news for us.

In honesty, I'm a little worried about Picken. Not about his footy output, but his health. Many people much more knowledgeable than me likely giving him the green light but to me last years injury was career ending for a clear family man with 3 kids.

[GVGjr]

In honesty, I'm a little worried about Picken. Not about his footy output, but his health. Many people much more knowledgeable than me likely giving him the green light but to me last years injury was career ending for a clear family man with 3 kids.

I don't think we will risk him if he hasn't passed the tests so while it's a concern if he is fit to play then I guess we will pick him
Like you I'm not sure if I would take that risk if I were him but it's clearly a choice between Picken and the club.

[Go_Dogs]

I don't think we will risk him if he hasn't passed the tests so while it's a concern if he is fit to play then I guess we will pick him
Like you I'm not sure if I would take that risk if I were him but it's clearly a choice between Picken and the club.

Given Koby and a few others have retired based on very similar injuries (based on media reports), it seems odd on the face of it Picko hasn't. There must be more to the story and a lower risk for him having long term effects, although I'm not sure how definitive the experts could really be.

[Sedat]

Picko needs to wear a helmet. I know the medical professions says it makes no difference but clearly it prevents concussions. Gary Wilson, Nathan Burke, Dean Kemp and Angus Brayshaw were never concussed once they started wearing helmets, and prior to that they were all multiple concussion victims.

Doctors keep crapping on about the rattling of the brain being the cause of concussion - in 40 years I've never seen a single player concussed whilst wearing a helmet but I've seen plenty saved from being concussed.

[SlimPickens]

Picko needs to wear a helmet. I know the medical professions says it makes no difference but clearly it prevents concussions. Gary Wilson, Nathan Burke, Dean Kemp and Angus Brayshaw were never concussed once they started wearing helmets, and prior to that they were all multiple concussion victims.

Doctors keep crapping on about the rattling of the brain being the cause of concussion - in 40 years I've never seen a single player concussed whilst wearing a helmet but I've seen plenty saved from being concussed.

AFL maybe, in the NFL however every single concussion in the sport ever.

[Sedat]

AFL maybe, in the NFL however every single concussion in the sport ever.
In NFL, the velocity of two concrete-like objects (their helmets) bashing into each other leaves no absorption for the head. Footy helmets are soft and pliable (yet very strong) and allow sufficient absorption for the head.

Helmets in the AFL is a real hobby horse of mine. Clearly they work, and yet clearly they are dismissed as not being of any use. Something doesn’t add up.

Anyway I really hope Picko wears one.

[Mofra]

AFL maybe, in the NFL however every single concussion in the sport ever.
In the NFL they grow up playing with hard helmets so never learn to protect the head. Contact sports without helmets (e.g. AFL, both codes of rugby) have lower rates of concussion IIRC.

[lemmon]

In NFL, the velocity of two concrete-like objects (their helmets) bashing into each other leaves no absorption for the head. Footy helmets are soft and pliable (yet very strong) and allow sufficient absorption for the head.

Helmets in the AFL is a real hobby horse of mine. Clearly they work, and yet clearly they are dismissed as not being of any use. Something doesn’t add up.

Anyway I really hope Picko wears one.

Is that backed empirically? Amateur boxers wearing headgear were actually experiencing concussion at a higher rate than those who weren't wearing them. I believe the current attitude in boxing is that while they may help stop cuts and lacerations, headgear actually just provides a bigger target to hit and your brain will still rattle in your skull regardless.

[Twodogs]

Is that backed empirically? Amateur boxers wearing headgear were actually experiencing concussion at a higher rate than those who weren't wearing them. I believe the current attitude in boxing is that while they may help stop cuts and lacerations, headgear actually just provides a bigger target to hit and your brain will still rattle in your skull regardless.

Concussion is the result of the brain impacting on the inside of the skull. Like any other trauma it leaves bruising to the soft spot (in this case the brain) and that what causes the problem.

I like your boxing analogy and will point out that bare knuckle fighting is increasing in popularity because the surface area that you hit with a glove is so much greater than the area you hit with a bare fist. Once you get past the blood that cuts from being hit by the knuckles cause you can see that they may (and I say may) have a point.

[FrediKanoute]

But he won't take Mason Cox's spot so he either plays in defence or not at all.

With respect, a fit Roughie is a better footballer than Mason Cox and I think if he can get himself fit then he will end up in the 2nd ruck role at Collingwood.

[SlimPickens]

In NFL, the velocity of two concrete-like objects (their helmets) bashing into each other leaves no absorption for the head. Footy helmets are soft and pliable (yet very strong) and allow sufficient absorption for the head.

Helmets in the AFL is a real hobby horse of mine. Clearly they work, and yet clearly they are dismissed as not being of any use. Something doesn’t add up.

Anyway I really hope Picko wears one.

No doubt but in an ever evidence based world, unfortunately the data is yet to be found to back up your statement. I’ve seen plenty of players KO’d wearing helmets so to suggest they work isn’t the entire arguement, nor does the evidence back this point up.

[bornadog]

No doubt but in an ever evidence based world, unfortunately the data is yet to be found to back up your statement. I’ve seen plenty of players KO’d wearing helmets so to suggest they work isn’t the entire arguement, nor does the evidence back this point up.

Picken out for a year - do you think it was more a mental thing rather than a medical problem? I have been told it was more mental, and pressure from the family.

[SlimPickens]

Picken out for a year - do you think it was more a mental thing rather than a medical problem? I have been told it was more mental, and pressure from the family.

The reported noise, light and exercise sensitivity months after the incident would suggest it was medical. I think Liam wanted to play towards the end of the year, i'd imagine the Drs took a cautious approach due to the severity and considering our position on the ladder there was very little to gain from playing him.

[AshMac]

Picken out for a year - do you think it was more a mental thing rather than a medical problem? I have been told it was more mental, and pressure from the family.

His wife is very vocal about how scary it was, but i think he is such a fierce competitor that he just wants to get back out there. I dont see him going on another year if there was a mental aspect to it - would have been too ripe an opportunity to retire if that was the case.