Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

[Scraggers]

Welcome to the Always Right Match Committee Thread. The Match Committee threads has been named after long time WOOF member Always Right who tragically passed away in March 2018.


If you were on the Western Bulldogs match committee what changes would you make after our Round 9 match against Geelong for our Round 10, 2019 match against North Melbourne at Marvel Stadium?

For those new to these threads, please give a brief explanation for your changes ... this would add a lot of value to the discussion.

[GVGjr]

Bump

[LostDoggy]

Shack for gowers
Williams for young

[The Pie Man]

In : Williams, Dale, English, Lipinski
Out : Young, Gowers, Roberts, Hayes

[DOG GOD]

In : Williams, Dale, English, Lipinski
Out : Young, Gowers, Roberts, Hayes

This

[dadsgirl16]

Thought Young did ok but agree on Hayes

[chef]

I'd be dropping Wood before Young, but hes captain so it aint happening.

[boydogs]

Hopefully English is right to go, wouldn't mind trying Trengove forward, Gowers and Hayes aren't cutting it

[Rocco Jones]

In: Dale, Lewis Young, English
Out: Hayes, Gowers, Roberts

[Remi Moses]

In : Williams, Dale, English, Lipinski
Out : Young, Gowers, Roberts, Hayes

Agree

[Mantis]

In: Dale, Lewis Young, English
Out: Hayes, Gowers, Roberts

No Lipinski?

Surely he deserves an opportunity.

[Rocco Jones]

No Lipinski?

Surely he deserves an opportunity.

I forgot Bailey Williams for Lachie Young. Yeah, I've wanted Lipsinki in for ages but have kind of given up on him getting a game. Gowers really has to go even if we don't know who replaces him forward. He is such a liability.

[Bullies]

Out : GOWERS (Please i'd be happy to play one short); Hayes (How does he get in before Lippa and Dale . A good seconds footballer at best); Roberts (Looks like there is a reason he hasn't been picked for 2 years); Young (will make the grade but needs a spell)

In: Williams, English, Dale and Lippa

[Danjul]

In: Dale, Lewis Young, English
Out: Hayes, Gowers, Roberts

l didnÂ’t think Roberts had a good game but he was on one of the best forwards in the history of the game and kept him to 4 goals when a quality team was kicking the ball into his hands (actually Hawkins only had 10 possessions).

I think it was the other 17 Geelong goals that killed us.

[KT31]

Out: Gowers, Wood and Hayes

In: English, Lipinski and Dale

[Danjul]

Out : GOWERS (Please i'd be happy to play one short); Hayes (How does he get in before Lippa and Dale . A good seconds footballer at best); Roberts (Looks like there is a reason he hasn't been picked for 2 years); Young (will make the grade but needs a spell)

In: Williams, English, Dale and Lippa

Richards also needs a spell. He has talent but it’s been a bad year. He is not getting the ball (only 7 possessions today) and is not making progress.

[Danjul]

Tom Hawkins (4goals) was bigger and stronger than his opponent. Geelong also had resting ruckmen (4 goals) dropping back to take marks close to goal. Their 2 ruckmen also contributed 40 hitouts. Trengove made a great contribution but it always seemed like the Dogs were not big enough where size mattered.

[Remi Moses]

Gowers has gone away from having great hands and lead up to wanting to continually engage in body contact

[MrMahatma]

In:
Shache, Lipinski, English

Out:
Hayes, Wood, Gowers

[bornadog]

Didn't see Dale play today, but his stats were pretty good with 21 disposals and 3 goals.

In: Dale, English, Lewis Young, Williams

Out: Gowers, Roberts, Hayes and Young

[Happy Days]

In : Williams, Dale, English, Lipinski
Out : Young, Gowers, Roberts, Hayes

Agree with this but not shattered if Fletch gets another go if English isn't right.

Hayes and Gowers can't play. I feel like I'm going insane watching them play every week with objectively better, younger, more talented guys who are outperforming them in the wings.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

What’s going on with Lynch? Why has he fallen away again after looking so promising at the end of last season?

[GVGjr]

What’s going on with Lynch? Why has he fallen away again after looking so promising at the end of last season?

Hard to say if he just hit a decent run of form when he got his chances last year.
He's no longer the skinny kid that arrived at the club and he has filled out nicely, he moves well and can kick the ball with either foot but he just doesn't get enough of the ball to command a spot.
Perhaps more games in the back line are in order but we do have a number of back flankers on the list already and he's often being asked to play as a forward which makes it harder for him to get a lot of the ball.

[comrade]

There's no way Suckling is at full fitness, he's come back too early. I'm also expecting English not to return, so I'd bring in Young who has been assisting with the ruck at VFL level to tag team with Trengove.

OUT: Suckling(inj), Hayes, Gowers, Roberts
IN: Williams, Dale, Schache, Young

Lachie Young, Easton Wood and Ed Richards all should not be playing next week, but we won't cut that deep.

Our list is a mess at the moment. We have some talent but so does every club. We lack on every line.

[GVGjr]

There's no way Suckling is at full fitness, he's come back too early. I'm also expecting English not to return, so I'd bring in Young who has been assisting with the ruck at VFL level to tag team with Trengove.

OUT: Suckling(inj), Hayes, Gowers, Roberts
IN: Williams, Dale, Schache, Young

Lachie Young, Easton Wood and Ed Richards all should not be playing next week, but we won't cut that deep.

Our list is a mess at the moment. We have some talent but so does every club. We lack on every line.

I just think we might stick with Roberts until English is fit enough to then allow Trengove to help out in back line. I don't say it with a lot of confidence though.

Suckling was okay against Brisbane but he didn't look great yesterday.

The thing that stands out for me is that for years we all said it was essential to have our own VFL side to develop players and play them in the same manner as the senior side and yet often we appear to have ignored the form of players at Footscray. Now that is more than okay when your senior side is performing strongly but ours has been inconsistent

Lipinski has been in the best players for multiple weeks but doesn't look likely and Williams has had a good few weeks as well.
Trengove was stuck there for few weeks too long

It's perplexing but we are just as likely to pick Sweet after one game back from a longish suspension than we are the players who have been in form

[DOG GOD]

I dont even want to think what Ben Brown will do to Roberts next week. We need English back ASAP so Trengove can go back.

[Doggy]

There's no way Suckling is at full fitness, he's come back too early. I'm also expecting English not to return, so I'd bring in Young who has been assisting with the ruck at VFL level to tag team with Trengove.

OUT: Suckling(inj), Hayes, Gowers, Roberts
IN: Williams, Dale, Schache, Young

Lachie Young, Easton Wood and Ed Richards all should not be playing next week, but we won't cut that deep.

Our list is a mess at the moment. We have some talent but so does every club. We lack on every line.


What is wrong with English?

[Danjul]

I dont even want to think what Ben Brown will do to Roberts next week. We need English back ASAP so Trengove can go back.

A normal team would not consider playing Roberts out of position like that. It would have a fullback to play on Brown. Just like it would on Hawkins etc.

Unfortunately playing people in ridiculous roles is the new normal. The concept of specialist is dead.

[GVGjr]

What is wrong with English?

He's missed 2 weeks with general soreness, I think Comrade is suggesting that it might take a bit longer

[Danjul]

I hope the match committee doesn’t focus on the players as these comments do.

The game was lost in the first 5 minutes. Crazy overuse of handball gave Geelong 3 goals which were never made up.

I think the Dogs had 40 more for the match. Many led to turnovers and goals that kept Geelong in front.

The game was lost in the last 20 minutes. Geelong kicked 6 goals to 1. Why did the Dogs run out of gas?

Does the running handball game work with a young small team that is getting physically battered week after week?

[Mofra]

No Lipinski?

Surely he deserves an opportunity.
Where does he play?
He's racking it up at VFL level as a slow inside mid, doesn't seem an area of need for us.

I'd have Dale in for Hayes as a start, and McLean can run further up the ground so Dale can rotate high forward
English for Fletch, Trengove plays back.

[Happy Days]

I dont even want to think what Ben Brown will do to Roberts next week. We need English back ASAP so Trengove can go back.

Ben Brown sucks now that his finishing move, run at the ball as fast as he can and extend his arms with no chance of marking it to try and win a free, has been adequately scouted. Roberts is likely not up to AFL standard but he'll be fine on Brown.

[DOG GOD]

Ben Brown sucks now that his finishing move, run at the ball as fast as he can and extend his arms with no chance of marking it to try and win a free, has been adequately scouted. Roberts is likely not up to AFL standard but he'll be fine on Brown.

Well, time will tell on that...I hope you’re right and I’m wrong.

[westbulldog]

out
gowers hayes young

in Lipinski Williams English or Lewis Young

[Jam Donuts]

I'd be dropping Wood before Young, but hes captain so it aint happening.
I think we missed a golden opportunity this year in not naming the Bont as captain, what an inspirational player and captain he would be, and I think he would handle the pressure of being a captain easily, lets Woody settle down and just play.

[hujsh]

A normal team would not consider playing Roberts out of position like that. It would have a fullback to play on Brown. Just like it would on Hawkins etc.

Unfortunately playing people in ridiculous roles is the new normal. The concept of specialist is dead.

Are you saying Roberts is out of position when playing at fullback? Where on Earth is is actual preferred position then? IIRC he played on Patton and Tippett in 2016 in the finals.

[1eyedog]

Where does he play?
He's racking it up at VFL level as a slow inside mid, doesn't seem an area of need for us.

I'd have Dale in for Hayes as a start, and McLean can run further up the ground so Dale can rotate high forward
English for Fletch, Trengove plays back.

Has to play high half forward.

[BulldogBelle]

Outs
1. Will Hayes - hasn't gone right for him since his first AFL game. Go back to the VFL and try to develop some class. Then give it another go.
2. Billy Gowers - gives away too many stupid free kicks. Things just are not getting better. He is not getting smarter with each game. He spoils good attacking moves.
3. Latchie Young - never was ready for AFL. Showed some promise, must have been picked on the basis of his training form.
4. Fletcher Roberts - loses too many one-on-ones. Wasn't good in the VFL to get a senior game in the first place.

IN
1. Patrick Lipinski - replaces Will Hayes.
Showing good form and is smart. Always will be better than Will Hayes.
2. Bailey Dale - replaces Billy Gowers.
Back to some good form. Is a better player than Billy Gowers.
3. Bailey Williams - replaces Latchie Young.
Getting back to some good form.
4. Lewis Young - replaces Fletcher Roberts or Billy Gowers.
Twice as good as Roberts. Also gaining some ruck and forward skills and making fewer blunders.
5. Tim English - if he is fit he comes in.
Then would have to not promote Bailey Dale.

OTHERS
1. E. Wood - will not be dropped as is the captain and don't have a replacement.
2. T. Liberatore - nowhere near his best.

COACH
1. Selection committee - replace these for continual poor team selection. If they pick. Hayes, Gowers and La Young again this week then we have to send them personalised letters. Matter of fact I am going to send them a letter now just to make them realise how stupid they are and in anticipation of them being stupid again.
2. Marking Coach. Who didn't train Tom Boyd to take marks. It was plainly obvious that Tom Boyd had a marking problem when he came to us. Did the coaches work on it in his first season? No. Did they work on it in the second season? No.
3. Backline Coach. Ball watching backline - when the opposition get past our defensive wall and run towards goal, their forwards run back fast. Meanwhile our backs are looking at them coming and not staying on their man. Always a simple ball over the top for an easy goal. Our backline is shocking.
4. Player recruitment - Darcy Fort played for Footscray a few years ago. He looked like a really good player whom you would recruit. Would have picked him in front of others. Now Geelong recruit him and he stars in his first match.

[bornadog]

He's missed 2 weeks with general soreness, I think Comrade is suggesting that it might take a bit longer

In Bevo's press conference on Friday, he explained English's injury. Started with a cork thigh, then became bloody beneath the skin and they didn't want to take any risks. We need him back urgently.

Story Here (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2019-05-17/english-on-the-mend)

[Danjul]

Are you saying Roberts is out of position when playing at fullback? Where on Earth is is actual preferred position then? IIRC he played on Patton and Tippett in 2016 in the finals.

I think Roberts came to the club as a tall half forward, the role Gowers has. Apparently he was a good goal kicker. He filled in for a few games on the full back line and has been stuck there ever since. Why is he trying to control champions who are taller and heavier like Hawkins . That was a match up he was never going to win.

The way Geelong played yesterday I am amazed Hawkins got only 10 possessions and 4 goals.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think Roberts came to the club as a tall half forward, the role Gowers has. Apparently he was a good goal kicker. He filled in for a few games on the full back line and has been stuck there ever since. Why is he trying to control champions who are taller and heavier like Hawkins . That was a match up he was never going to win.

The way Geelong played yesterday I am amazed Hawkins got only 10 possessions and 4 goals.

Roberts would be an opposition's dream as a forward. He's as slow as a wet week so he wouldn't get any separation on a lead, and would not apply any defensive pressure. He can't jump either so would be useless aerially, and is equally atrocious below his knees.
Even if he kicked 2 goals, his deficiencies would concede double that amount.

[hujsh]

I think Roberts came to the club as a tall half forward, the role Gowers has. Apparently he was a good goal kicker. He filled in for a few games on the full back line and has been stuck there ever since. Why is he trying to control champions who are taller and heavier like Hawkins . That was a match up he was never going to win.

The way Geelong played yesterday I am amazed Hawkins got only 10 possessions and 4 goals.

He has played forward at Footscray. I think it's fair to say that if he'd performed well in the role he'd be there now.

[Danjul]

Roberts would be an opposition's dream as a forward. He's as slow as a wet week so he wouldn't get any separation on a lead, and would not apply any defensive pressure. He can't jump either so would be useless aerially, and is equally atrocious below his knees.
Even if he kicked 2 goals, his deficiencies would concede double that amount.

we will not know until we try it. And no one has done anything to be pleased with on the forward line in years. Look at Saturday , many of Geelongs 21 goals were generated up the ground.

The highlight of the Dogs scoring in the last 50 games was a few bags of 4, and Schache getting 4 and Naughton getting 5 this year.

In 2015 there were 17 times our forwards kicked 4 or more goals. 13 of the games that year had more goals than yesterday.

Always preferred watching big scoring to one-percenters and defensive pressure and whatever.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

we will not know until we try it. And no one has done anything to be pleased with on the forward line in years. Look at Saturday , many of Geelongs 21 goals were generated up the ground.

The highlight of the Dogs scoring in the last 50 games was a few bags of 4, and Schache getting 4 and Naughton getting 5 this year.

In 2015 there were 17 times our forwards kicked 4 or more goals. 13 of the games that year had more goals than yesterday.

Always preferred watching big scoring to one-percenters and defensive pressure and whatever.

I think we know exactly how Roberts would go up forward based on his skill set. Just pretending his deficiencies would magically disappear by placing him forward is not a good plan.

As for scoring, i just prefer winning our score yesterday was precisely the same as our 2016 premiership. I cared not a jot that we didn't score more heavily once the siren sounded.

[LostDoggy]

Young for Young, Lewis time has surely come, can provide a ruck chop out. Lachie will be a good player and has had a taste.

Dale for Hayes, if Bailey is at his best he is a true asset to the side.

Less likely, but I’d do it..
Williams for Wood/suckers if sore
Lipinski for Gowers

[Danjul]

I think we know exactly how Roberts would go up forward based on his skill set. Just pretending his deficiencies would magically disappear by placing him forward is not a good plan.

As for scoring, i just prefer winning our score yesterday was precisely the same as our 2016 premiership. I cared not a jot that we didn't score more heavily once the siren sounded.

most supporters care a lot about scores. It must be bigger than the opposition total. Carlton and Geelong made a fifteen goal deficit between them. And one was the bottom team. Being occasionally competitive isn’t acceptable. And the rot goes a lot deeper than one or two players.

The simple fact is in the last 50 games you have not seen much winning. So it is time to change the mindset at the club.

[hujsh]

most supporters care a lot about scores. It must be bigger than the opposition total. Carlton and Geelong made a fifteen goal deficit between them. And one was the bottom team. Being occasionally competitive isn’t acceptable. And the rot goes a lot deeper than one or two players.

The simple fact is in the last 50 games you have not seen much winning. So it is time to change the mindset at the club.

That's exactly when YHF said. The point is you can do it multiple ways it doesn't have to be scoring 130 points it can be by restricting them to 50

[jeemak]

Or in the case of GWS vs. Carlton, both!

[soupman]

Out:
Lachie Young
I like him and see what the coaches see in him. A composed good ball user who i aggressive and able to play on many types. I think he will be good enough, but he isn't yet.
In:
Bailey Williams
Needs to play. One of the best talents on our list imo and yet spends the entire season in the VFL or playing weird roles in the ones. Get him in and the get the ball in his hands.

Out:
Will Hayes
I like his effort, but that's it. I just don't understand what the end game with him is that we are hoping for. He has no weapons, is thoroughly mediocre in every area and is basically a worse version of Lachie Hunter as a hard running link man. I just don't know why we are investing these games into him.
In:
Patrick Lipinski
Slower than Hayes, but similiarly naturally finds the ball and is a better user. I would be looking at trying to get he and Mclean to try and work up the ground and try to replicate Hayes running ability.

Out:
Billy Gowers
I defend him all week and that's what he dishes up? I think he is more important than the player he he needs to go to the VFL and be forced to earn his spot back after indifferent at best form.
In:
Bailey Dale
Natural forward who is good in the air and attacking with his ball use. Has earnt his spot back in the side.

Out:
Fletcher Roberts
Too small to play on the real bigs and too slow to play on anyone else. His role is to do just enough to allow a teammate to come over the top. That's not working. 51 games and a premiership Medal is pretty impressive for someone of his ability.
In:
Tim English
Frees up Trengove to play on Brown. Gives us some aerial presence around the ground. If fit must come in.

Out:
Easton Wood
Can't see this happening but it needs to. Was a deadset liability yesterday, if you bring his role all the way back to the basics as a defensive stopper who just has to be safe with the ball and he still stuff it up then that's it. If this seasons form continues does he get another contract? Has been a mediocre to poor AFL player for 3 seasons now.
In:
Lewis Young
Reward for good form in the VFL. Potentially allows Cordy or Trengove or even himself to play a bit forward and help Naughton out. Backup ruck. If English doesn't get up is my inclusion for Roberts and put Cordy on Brown.

[bulldogtragic]

Really well thought out post. Thanks for the effort Soupa.

And I agree.

[kruder]

I can't see Sucking playing this week looked sore indeed. Hasn't had much luck at all.

[bornadog]

I can't see Sucking playing this week looked sore indeed. Hasn't had much luck at all.

Calves again, has had a lot of feet/leg trouble.

[kruder]

Gowers will continue to play until Schache can force him out. Linpinksi/Dale play a totally different role to him.

Dale in for Hayes who should never play AFL again( bevo is more than likely to play him again though). He can roam the flanks and help with connections and hopefully take his opportunity at goal when it comes. The Dale that kicked 4 against Port is a very gifted player indeed.

Young in for Young, he is 2 years ahead of him in development It's been absolutely ridiculous that Lachie has been played ahead of him. He must fly for his marks, we cant have another defender looking to punch the ball back into the corridor. It sounds like he has been competitive the last few weeks let's give him a month of footy like Hayes and Young have been gifted.

Williams in for Suckling if injured, is an AFL quality player been solid in the VFL and deserves another crack.

Expecting English to miss another so Roberts survives and let's be honest there is 0 chance of Wood being dropped.

[whythelongface]

we will not know until we try it. And no one has done anything to be pleased with on the forward line in years. Look at Saturday , many of Geelongs 21 goals were generated up the ground.

The highlight of the Dogs scoring in the last 50 games was a few bags of 4, and Schache getting 4 and Naughton getting 5 this year.

In 2015 there were 17 times our forwards kicked 4 or more goals. 13 of the games that year had more goals than yesterday.

Always preferred watching big scoring to one-percenters and defensive pressure and whatever.

think you are selling Naughton short here. He is a long term prospect and will continue to develop as a forward (he kicked another 2 on Saturday night). In one sentence you state that you want stability and players to play in their designated positions then you argue Roberts to be played as a forward (he may have been drafted as a forward but as others have stated has shown little, if anything, as a forward). We need to stick with our current forward set up (with the exception of Hayes (not sure what his role has been)) and maybe include Schache once he finds some form.

Looking forward to seeing Dale get selected this week.

[Danjul]

think you are selling Naughton short here. He is a long term prospect and will continue to develop as a forward (he kicked another 2 on Saturday night). In one sentence you state that you want stability and players to play in their designated positions then you argue Roberts to be played as a forward (he may have been drafted as a forward but as others have stated has shown little, if anything, as a forward). We need to stick with our current forward set up (with the exception of Hayes (not sure what his role has been)) and maybe include Schache once he finds some form.

Looking forward to seeing Dale get selected this week.

my comment was about the team performance, no one is selling Naughton short. In fact the comment clearly says he has been a glimmer of hope in a grossly underperforming forward line in the last few years. Grossly underperforming.

our ability to score has steadily disappeared since 2015, and I am not convinced the problem is simply a lack of ability.

I will give a clear example from the Geelong game.

As everyone knows Hawkins has kicked over 300 goals in the last five and a half seasons. In successive weeks last year he kicked 7 goals, being approximately half of Geelong s score in that fortnight. A true power forward. On Saturday he had an average day with only 20% .

He was constantly using hand signals to his midfielders and other forwards so everyone knew what he was going to do. They coordinated brilliantly with moves that both gave him the ball and opened space for others.

That is not a part of the Dogs game that I have noticed.

[bornadog]

my comment was about the team performance, no one is selling Naughton short. In fact the comment clearly says he has been a glimmer of hope in a grossly underperforming forward line in the last few years. Grossly underperforming.

our ability to score has steadily disappeared since 2015, and I am not convinced the problem is simply a lack of ability.

I will give a clear example from the Geelong game.

As everyone knows Hawkins has kicked over 300 goals in the last five and a half seasons. In successive weeks last year he kicked 7 goals, being approximately half of Geelong s score in that fortnight. A true power forward. On Saturday he had an average day with only 20% .

He was constantly using hand signals to his midfielders and other forwards so everyone knew what he was going to do. They coordinated brilliantly with moves that both gave him the ball and opened space for others.

That is not a part of the Dogs game that I have noticed.

Who should have played on Hawkins?

[whythelongface]

my comment was about the team performance, no one is selling Naughton short. In fact the comment clearly says he has been a glimmer of hope in a grossly underperforming forward line in the last few years. Grossly underperforming.

our ability to score has steadily disappeared since 2015, and I am not convinced the problem is simply a lack of ability.

I will give a clear example from the Geelong game.

As everyone knows Hawkins has kicked over 300 goals in the last five and a half seasons. In successive weeks last year he kicked 7 goals, being approximately half of Geelong s score in that fortnight. A true power forward. On Saturday he had an average day with only 20% .

He was constantly using hand signals to his midfielders and other forwards so everyone knew what he was going to do. They coordinated brilliantly with moves that both gave him the ball and opened space for others.

That is not a part of the Dogs game that I have noticed.

Your point being? We don't have a power forward similar to Hawkins, at the moment. However we do have one in the making, as you have stated, that being Naughton (may play a different style but will be our 'power' forward nonetheless). We just need to be patient for him to develop and be more consistent (to be honest i think he has been reasonably consistent. We are currently very reliant on Naughton in the forward line.

What we do need is a few more decent lieutenants that complement Naughton. We are relying on Gowers to be our 2nd tall option at the moment. Gowers in reality should be a 3rd or 4th option. Hence we need to see Schache continue to develop and be that option moving forward.

I don't believe, as you stated earlier, that Fletcher Roberts is the answer.

[Danjul]

Responding to: Out:
Fletcher Roberts
Too small to play on the real bigs and too slow to play on anyone else. His role is to do just enough to allow a teammate to come over the top. That's not working. 51 games and a premiership Medal is pretty impressive for someone of his ability.

In the last 2 weeks the opposition full forwards have taken 4 marks each and kicked only 6 of their team’s 32 goals. Considering that one is in consideration for best full forward over the last 5 years (with over 300 goals including numerous bags of 7) that is barely an average return. I humbly suggest that something is working . what we need to find out is why did the opposition get their other 26 goals.

I am not convinced that anyone is even looking.

[hujsh]

Responding to: Out:
Fletcher Roberts
Too small to play on the real bigs and too slow to play on anyone else. His role is to do just enough to allow a teammate to come over the top. That's not working. 51 games and a premiership Medal is pretty impressive for someone of his ability.

In the last 2 weeks the opposition full forwards have taken 4 marks each and kicked only 6 of their team’s 32 goals. Considering that one is in consideration for best full forward over the last 5 years (with over 300 goals including numerous bags of 7) that is barely an average return. I humbly suggest that something is working . what we need to find out is why did the opposition get their other 26 goals.

I am not convinced that anyone is even looking.

Hipwood might have had 4 marks but he also had 2.5 as a key forward in the wet. Hawkins is not so great that keeping him to only 4 goals is an amazing achievement to cheer about. If he looked competent last night but give up 4 goals you might have a case but he clearly did not.

[Mantis]

Responding to: Out:
Fletcher Roberts
Too small to play on the real bigs and too slow to play on anyone else. His role is to do just enough to allow a teammate to come over the top. That's not working. 51 games and a premiership Medal is pretty impressive for someone of his ability.

In the last 2 weeks the opposition full forwards have taken 4 marks each and kicked only 6 of their team’s 32 goals. Considering that one is in consideration for best full forward over the last 5 years (with over 300 goals including numerous bags of 7) that is barely an average return. I humbly suggest that something is working . what we need to find out is why did the opposition get their other 26 goals.

I am not convinced that anyone is even looking.

Given most on here are suggesting the likes of Young & Wood also depart it probably suggests the defensive group are struggling.

Out of interest how many 1 on 1 contests were Roberts & Hawkins in on Saturday? How many were won by Tom? Understand where both are at as footballers, but given Fletch is into his 8th year on the list it's highly unlikely he will ever be able to play the role you would hope a 6'5" defender can.

[Danjul]

Your point being? We don't have a power forward similar to Hawkins, at the moment. However we do have one in the making, as you have stated, that being Naughton (may play a different style but will be our 'power' forward nonetheless). We just need to be patient for him to develop and be more consistent (to be honest i think he has been reasonably consistent. We are currently very reliant on Naughton in the forward line.

What we do need is a few more decent lieutenants that complement Naughton. We are relying on Gowers to be our 2nd tall option at the moment. Gowers in reality should be a 3rd or 4th option. Hence we need to see Schache continue to develop and be that option moving forward.

I don't believe, as you stated earlier, that Fletcher Roberts is the answer.

I agree with a lot you say, like
.......We are currently very reliant on Naughton in the forward line.

But for:
......We don't have an established power forward

my response is simply
..... we always should have, because all teams should have, and that responsibility goes beyond the players .

Also, I did not state that Roberts is the answer because I do not believe that is the case. But by being much taller than the rest of the forward line it might help get the score up a bit, and any improvement is welcome. At the moment inside 50s become outside 50s if the ball goes in above 195 cm.

Or, I would also be happy to have Cordy spend time there while we wait for our development options to arrive.

[Danjul]

Given most on here are suggesting the likes of Young & Wood also depart it probably suggests the defensive group are struggling.

Out of interest how many 1 on 1 contests were Roberts & Hawkins in on Saturday? How many were won by Tom? Understand where both are at as footballers, but given Fletch is into his 8th year on the list it's highly unlikely he will ever be able to play the role you would hope a 6'5" defender can.

who has beaten Hawkins over the last 5 years? He is a genuine match winner.

but in response to the question, Hawkins had only 10 possessions and barely had to move because Geelong delivers so well.

That was his second worst possessions count in his last 30 games. The more I think about it the better Roberts did.

[Danjul]

Hipwood might have had 4 marks but he also had 2.5 as a key forward in the wet. Hawkins is not so great that keeping him to only 4 goals is an amazing achievement to cheer about. If he looked competent last night but give up 4 goals you might have a case but he clearly did not.

picasso’s work doesn’t look competent - it is history that counts. Roberts has given up 6 goals in 2 games. when Crozier gave up 5 in one game it didn’t generate a response here.

300 goals in 5 and a half seasons means Hawkins is great.

[soupman]

Yeah Hawkins is great but that doesn't mean Roberts is excused. He still failed to show any ability to top Hawkins or even significantly impact his game. It wasn't through lack of effort, it was just because as i said he is not physically big enough to play on those key talls, and considering he no longer shows any ability to intercept mark or be effective at ground level if he can't play a lockdown role effectively on the only guys as slow as he is then he shouldn't be in the side.

How many contests did we see where Roberts had a direct hand at influencing them in our favour? Very few.

I like him and I love what he was achieved with us but Roberts shouldn't be in our side and that's why i said to drop him, and I hope he doesn't get another contract because he doesn't make us better.

[Danjul]

Yeah Hawkins is great but that doesn't mean Roberts is excused. He still failed to show any ability to top Hawkins or even significantly impact his game. It wasn't through lack of effort, it was just because as i said he is not physically big enough to play on those key talls, and considering he no longer shows any ability to intercept mark or be effective at ground level if he can't play a lockdown role effectively on the only guys as slow as he is then he shouldn't be in the side.

How many contests did we see where Roberts had a direct hand at influencing them in our favour? Very few.

I like him and I love what he was achieved with us but Roberts shouldn't be in our side and that's why i said to drop him, and I hope he doesn't get another contract because he doesn't make us better.

Cordy (who I like) played on a first gamer who kicked 3 goals. And Geelong got others against his ruck work. No comment here about it.

Roberts wasn’t there to put things in our favour. He was there to negate the best forward of the last 5 seasons who was playing in the best team in the competition at the moment. And he did a good job keeping him to 10 possessions.

His previous game was against the third best team in the competition and he gave up 2 goals.

A total of 6 goals against two of the top three teams is putting things in our favour.

But that was totally negated by the way our forwards rediscovered their talent for missing easy goals, and our handball turnovers in the middle (gave Geelong their first three goals in less than 10 minutes).

[hujsh]

Cordy (who I like) played on a first gamer who kicked 3 goals. And Geelong got others against his ruck work. No comment here about it.

Roberts wasn’t there to put things in our favour. He was there to negate the best forward of the last 5 seasons who was playing in the best team in the competition at the moment. And he did a good job keeping him to 10 possessions.

His previous game was against the third best team in the competition and he gave up 2 goals.

A total of 6 goals against two of the top three teams is putting things in our favour.

But that was totally negated by the way our forwards rediscovered their talent for missing easy goals, and our handball turnovers in the middle (gave Geelong their first three goals in less than 10 minutes).

Looked up Fort's goals and the only one I found he was standing next to Roberts and Wood when to took his mark. Seemed to be against Roberts. Not sure about the other 2

[Danjul]

Looked up Fort's goals and the only one I found he was standing next to Roberts and Wood when to took his mark. Seemed to be against Roberts. Not sure about the other 2

Hawkins 4. Fort 3. Rohan 3. Duncan 3. ......Dogs best was 2 goals

AFL stats gave Fort as Geelong’s 5th best. Hawkins 14th. Shows Roberts did good job.

[hujsh]

Hawkins 4. Fort 3. Rohan 3. Duncan 3. ......Dogs best was 2 goals

AFL stats gave Fort as Geelong’s 5th best. Hawkins 14th. Shows Roberts did good job.

Those stats do not say to me Roberts did well. Roberts was soundly beaten. Whether that be on the stats sheet or, more importantly, actually watching and judging his game.

[Mantis]

Hawkins 4. Fort 3. Rohan 3. Duncan 3. ......Dogs best was 2 goals

AFL stats gave Fort as Geelong’s 5th best. Hawkins 14th. Shows Roberts did good job.

How many 1 on 1’s did Fletcher win?

To my eye Geelong rarely used Hawkins as they didn’t need to, but when they did he won the ball.

[soupman]

How many 1 on 1’s did Fletcher win?

To my eye Geelong rarely used Hawkins as they didn’t need to, but when they did he won the ball.

I agree. Also Forts second goal was the centered kick where he was on Hunter.

And besides my suggested changes are for this week. Even if Cordy and Roberts played equally well/bad last game I still think Cordy offers significantly more than Roberts in practically every area.

My assessment of Roberts is a bit like Hayes. I don't think he lacks effort, and (prior to Hayes' last week) their form hasn't been terrible, but i fail to see what they add to the side or indeed the squad that others cannot match or surpass.

[Danjul]

Those stats do not say to me Roberts did well. Roberts was soundly beaten. Whether that be on the stats sheet or, more importantly, actually watching and judging his game.

Let’s turn it around.

What would Roberts have to do to have an acceptable game on Hawkins (has kicked over 500 goals and is likely to be Geelong’s best ever full forward)?

What would Cordy have to do? I’m sure he’s getting less of the ball this year, only had 6 touches against Bottom team.

What would Gowers have to do? I’m sure he is being given the wrong role each week, still our third highest goal scorer.

And how should the team be structured for that to happen?

[hujsh]

Let’s turn it around.

What would Roberts have to do to have an acceptable game on Hawkins (has kicked over 500 goals and is likely to be Geelong’s best ever full forward)?

What would Cordy have to do? I’m sure he’s getting less of the ball this year, only had 6 touches against Bottom team.

What would Gowers have to do? I’m sure he is being given the wrong role each week, still our third highest goal scorer.

And how should the team be structured for that to happen?

Win a few contests. Not turnover the ball or contribute to Geelong's score outside that.

[Rocco Jones]

I like Fletch but I don't get what his value is. He isn't strong enough to take on the monsters. He isn't quick. I guess he has some defensive guile. He can kick the ball but it's more over longer distances as a strength and his kicking was off vs Geelong. I honestly would like to hear from those who want him in the side tell me what he brings to the side (honestly not being facetious).

Say a guy like Lewis Young. Clearly not the finished product and has weaknesses, but he also has some strengths. He can read the ball when on and take intercept marks. He is also athletic.

[bornadog]

I agree. Also Forts second goal was the centered kick where he was on Hunter.

.

In that contest, Fort grabbed Hunter and threw him aside.

Can someone tell me where in the rule book it says you can do that?

[hujsh]

In that contest, Fort grabbed Hunter and threw him asise.

Can someone tell me where in the rule book it says you can do that?

The part where it says if it makes the Geelong crowd laugh it's legal

[bornadog]

In Bevo's Brief | Members Message (Rd9) (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2018-05-20/bevos-brief-members-message-rd9?camefrom=EMCL_2913090_139583712) he says we are short and it is not where we want to be. With the injury to Tim it hasn't helped. We need to address this come trade and draft time.

Lew Young must come in and maybe even Schache

[bornadog]

The part where it says if it makes the Geelong crowd laugh it's legal

Just about right

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7Dv2jBU8AA4YLW.jpg

[The Pie Man]

In Bevo's Brief | Members Message (Rd9) (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2018-05-20/bevos-brief-members-message-rd9?camefrom=EMCL_2913090_139583712) he says we are short and it is not where we want to be. With the injury to Tim it hasn't helped. We need to address this come trade and draft time.

Lew Young must come in and maybe even Schache

Didn't sound like Tim was going to be available this week either.

Lewis Young or even Sweet should play if English isn't fit.

[Danjul]

Win a few contests. Not turnover the ball or contribute to Geelong's score outside that.

too vague. Roberts had 9 possessions and Hawkins had 10 (averaging about 15 this year) . Everyone expected Hawkins to get goals. I expected 1 for every 3 the rest of the Geelong team got. Because that’s what he does.

[mjp]

How many 1 on 1’s did Fletcher win?
To my eye Geelong rarely used Hawkins as they didn’t need to, but when they did he won the ball.

I get all of this. I do.

But as long as we keep pointing the finger at the 'bottom' 5-6 players on our list as the reason we lost, we are going to be miserable and frustrated. 'cos no matter where we our in our development cycle, our 'bottom' players will occasionally get matched up against better opponents and they will LOSE. Or they will fumble at a crucial time. Or...you get my meaning.

15 players in our side had less than 10 kicks on the weekend. Included in that list are Macrae, Dunkley, Libba, Bont, Wood, Suckling and Crozier. They are - or SHOULD be - amongst our BEST PLAYERS.

Geelong had 13 players who had less than 10 kicks. NOT in that group were Danger, Ablett, Stewart, Kelly, Selwood and Duncan.

This is clearly not apples for apples, but you will find it is our BETTER players who wont kick...and the Cats best players who DO. Hawkins was among those with < 10 kicks (he had 8)...but let's excuse him as half of them were goals!

Whatever you think of Roberts - whatever that is - he is NOT THE PROBLEM. Is holding Hawkins to four a great effort? Of course not. But Hawkins kicked dead straight as well...but he competed OK and played his role. Wood having his butt handed too him by Rohan early in the game was not OK though...but nowhere NEAR the issue created by Dunks and Jackson continually going NOWHERE with their possessions.

We simply MUST start kicking the footy. We have to do it. Go back and watch the 2016 prelim when the handball club was in full swing. Bont, Boyd (M), Macrae, Picken, JJ, Daniel, Dahl, Bont, Biggs all with > kicks than handballs - actually Macrae was 11/14 but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

KICK THE BALL. I feel that the mythology of the handball club has exceeded the reality of it...the 'handball club' used to KICK THE BALL...well, a helluva lot more than they do now in any case. And don't tell me they did it because of our strong forward targets - Stringer was playing like a busted, Cordy was doing next to nothing, Dickson was playing well but hardly a compelling tall target.

KICK THE BALL.

The problem isn't Roberts. It isn't Hayes. It isn't Young. It isn't English missing and Trengove out of position or anything else. It is that our BEST PLAYERS aren't damaging 'cos they wont kick the footy.

[Rocket Science]

Kicking the ball more often sounds very nice provided you've got the personnel to do it accurately and consistently.

Have we?

[mjp]

Kicking the ball more often sounds very nice provided you've got the personnel to do it accurately and consistently.

Have we?

Well, if the likes of Macrae, Bont and Dunkley were good enough to kick the ball in the 2016 prelim, they should sure as hell be good enough to kick it now. I understand the question you are asking, but we are talking about the SAME PLAYERS.

[ledge]

Bont is a great kick , apparently Dunkley is as well, just not in front of goals.
Daniels is our best but due to size it’s not long and damaging but short and safe.
Bailey Smith lowers his eyes and from what I see will be welcomed in the future by leading talls.
Hunter and Libber tend to float the kick which allows opposition to spoil.
Macrae isn’t a long kick either.
Richards tends to be the run on have a ping player like JJ.
Would love to see Dale in the team and Suckers if he gets his kicking going but age and injury are his downfall.
Lipinski is a good spot up kick, another we could bring in.

[GVGjr]

In Bevo's Brief | Members Message (Rd9) (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2018-05-20/bevos-brief-members-message-rd9?camefrom=EMCL_2913090_139583712) he says we are short and it is not where we want to be. With the injury to Tim it hasn't helped. We need to address this come trade and draft time.

Lew Young must come in and maybe even Schache

This must be a recent thing, he ignored playing both Trengove and English together when he had the chance to earlier in the season.

I agree we need to play at least one of Schache and/or Lewis Young

[ledge]

This must be a recent thing, he ignored playing both Trengove and English together when he had the chance to earlier in the season.

I agree we need to play at least one of Schache and/or Lewis Young

The Carlton game was a terrible team sheet , Carlton went in with talls everywhere and Bevo went small.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Speaking of us v North and the gasometer:

https://m.facebook.com/1313506355361382/photos/a.1834874683224544/1834874733224539/?type=3&source=48

[kruder]

In Bevo's Brief | Members Message (Rd9) (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2018-05-20/bevos-brief-members-message-rd9?camefrom=EMCL_2913090_139583712) he says we are short and it is not where we want to be. With the injury to Tim it hasn't helped. We need to address this come trade and draft time.

Lew Young must come in and maybe even Schache

Sounded like Gowers and Hayes are a big chance to be dropped.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Sounded like Gowers and Hayes are a big chance to be dropped.

Has the penny dropped?

[Mantis]

too vague. Roberts had 9 possessions and Hawkins had 10 (averaging about 15 this year) . Everyone expected Hawkins to get goals. I expected 1 for every 3 the rest of the Geelong team got. Because that’s what he does.

Hawkins recieved votes from both coaches which means both thought he had a big impact on the result of the game.

[Mofra]

I get all of this. I do.

But as long as we keep pointing the finger at the 'bottom' 5-6 players on our list as the reason we lost, we are going to be miserable and frustrated. 'cos no matter where we our in our development cycle, our 'bottom' players will occasionally get matched up against better opponents and they will LOSE. Or they will fumble at a crucial time. Or...you get my meaning.

15 players in our side had less than 10 kicks on the weekend. Included in that list are Macrae, Dunkley, Libba, Bont, Wood, Suckling and Crozier. They are - or SHOULD be - amongst our BEST PLAYERS.

Geelong had 13 players who had less than 10 kicks. NOT in that group were Danger, Ablett, Stewart, Kelly, Selwood and Duncan.

This is clearly not apples for apples, but you will find it is our BETTER players who wont kick...and the Cats best players who DO. Hawkins was among those with < 10 kicks (he had 8)...but let's excuse him as half of them were goals!

Whatever you think of Roberts - whatever that is - he is NOT THE PROBLEM. Is holding Hawkins to four a great effort? Of course not. But Hawkins kicked dead straight as well...but he competed OK and played his role. Wood having his butt handed too him by Rohan early in the game was not OK though...but nowhere NEAR the issue created by Dunks and Jackson continually going NOWHERE with their possessions.

We simply MUST start kicking the footy. We have to do it. Go back and watch the 2016 prelim when the handball club was in full swing. Bont, Boyd (M), Macrae, Picken, JJ, Daniel, Dahl, Bont, Biggs all with > kicks than handballs - actually Macrae was 11/14 but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

KICK THE BALL. I feel that the mythology of the handball club has exceeded the reality of it...the 'handball club' used to KICK THE BALL...well, a helluva lot more than they do now in any case. And don't tell me they did it because of our strong forward targets - Stringer was playing like a busted, Cordy was doing next to nothing, Dickson was playing well but hardly a compelling tall target.

KICK THE BALL.

The problem isn't Roberts. It isn't Hayes. It isn't Young. It isn't English missing and Trengove out of position or anything else. It is that our BEST PLAYERS aren't damaging 'cos they wont kick the footy.
How much of a mid not kicking the ball is one the mid - and how much is personnel / gameplan?

For marking power we had Naughton who is quality but he can't do it all himself and... 186cm Gowers? They were matched against the best defence in the league with a Taylor/Stewart combo that feasts on the high ball. McLean grabbed a few F50 marks by being very shallow and avoiding their talls.

We seemed to play pretty well when we short passed or ran the ball to the HF line and had shallow F50 entries simply because it seemed like we were very hesitant to hand the ball back to them.

I'm not entirely sure if we had a legitimate second tall option (with Gowers playing F3) the kick/handball ratio stays as it is.
It was when we started kicking longer and deeper in the F50 in the last quarter that they overran us. For all of Naughton's prowess, he's a 19 year old kid playing against multiple seasoned defenders and still competed.

[Mofra]

This must be a recent thing, he ignored playing both Trengove and English together when he had the chance to earlier in the season.

I agree we need to play at least one of Schache and/or Lewis Young
That JLT 1 game really scarred us. The plan seemed to be a Trengove/English combo all pre-season, with Naughton back. It was quickly abandoned for round 1.

[Danjul]

Thanks mjp.

I enjoyed your analysis, so much so that I read it twice.

I agree with everything you said 100%.

Now do the same with the height problem and you will have set the Dogs up for an era of success.

[Rocco Jones]

I hear what mjp is saying, mulling over the last 5 picked is very deck chairs on the Titanic. I do however think Fletch is a bit different to say Hayes. Who you go with as your key back has more influence than the last runner you pick. Also, as much as the bottom 5 don't matter THAT much, they do matter a bit. It's an area we can clearly improve a little.

But yes, it's massively about the gun to good player range. The bottom 5 didn't contribute much at all vs Tigers. The stars were very poor vs Blues.

[MrMahatma]

Why is it either/or?

The bottom 5 need to improve and anyone not up to it shouldn’t be on the list, let alone playing.

And the guns need to impact the game more.

I still reckon Hayes needs to be dropped. Not good enough. Whether Bont kicks more or not, Hayes is a liability.

[Rocco Jones]

Why is it either/or?

The bottom 5 need to improve and anyone not up to it shouldn’t be on the list, let alone playing.

And the guns need to impact the game more.

I still reckon Hayes needs to be dropped. Not good enough. Whether Bont kicks more or not, Hayes is a liability.

I guess this is my point. We don't have to pick one to improve. The stars are more important but the bottom 5 matter too.

[hujsh]

It's also the match committee thread. We aren't dropping our best 5 players so there's less to discuss about them here.

[Axe Man]

Why is it either/or?

The bottom 5 need to improve and anyone not up to it shouldn’t be on the list, let alone playing.

And the guns need to impact the game more.

I still reckon Hayes needs to be dropped. Not good enough. Whether Bont kicks more or not, Hayes is a liability.

Agreed. It has often been said that in finals when teams are evenly matched the bottom 5 or 6 players can prove the difference. Might only be a small difference but it's still tangible.

[mjp]

It's also the match committee thread. We aren't dropping our best 5 players so there's less to discuss about them here.

Yeah, sure. But the scrutiny on the bottom few is overwhelming. Every week I read about Hayes, Young, now it's Fletcher. In the past it has been Honeychurch...those guys will be what they be and they ALWAYS will. When the group around them play BETTER, they will look better.

I just find it maddening that - for example - it is all Gowers fault, yet we have a group of our best players refusing to simply kick the ball inside 50m when he IS 1v1 so we will never know if he would have got it or not. Bring in Schache if you like - it simply will not matter. Bont's 2nd half was awesome last week...but he was in at the first two CBD's of the game (or I seem to recall he was) when Geeolong strolled out and kicked it to Rohan playing on our skipper...

That's Robert's fault? That's Hayes' fault? Give me a spell...

[Happy Days]

Yeah, sure. But the scrutiny on the bottom few is overwhelming. Every week I read about Hayes, Young, now it's Fletcher. In the past it has been Honeychurch...those guys will be what they be and they ALWAYS will. When the group around them play BETTER, they will look better.

I just find it maddening that - for example - it is all Gowers fault, yet we have a group of our best players refusing to simply kick the ball inside 50m when he IS 1v1 so we will never know if he would have got it or not. Bring in Schache if you like - it simply will not matter. Bont's 2nd half was awesome last week...but he was in at the first two CBD's of the game (or I seem to recall he was) when Geeolong strolled out and kicked it to Rohan playing on our skipper...

That's Robert's fault? That's Hayes' fault? Give me a spell...

It's not that there isn't criticism of the better players (search the forum by "Hunter" if you don't believe me), its that the selection of Gowers, Hayes, Roberts etc are problems that seem to be of our own doing and are immediately fixable by they players available in the seconds.

This is a match committee thread, after all.

[The Pie Man]

Yeah, sure. But the scrutiny on the bottom few is overwhelming. Every week I read about Hayes, Young, now it's Fletcher. In the past it has been Honeychurch...those guys will be what they be and they ALWAYS will. When the group around them play BETTER, they will look better.

I just find it maddening that - for example - it is all Gowers fault, yet we have a group of our best players refusing to simply kick the ball inside 50m when he IS 1v1 so we will never know if he would have got it or not. Bring in Schache if you like - it simply will not matter. Bont's 2nd half was awesome last week...but he was in at the first two CBD's of the game (or I seem to recall he was) when Geeolong strolled out and kicked it to Rohan playing on our skipper...

That's Robert's fault? That's Hayes' fault? Give me a spell...

I like Gowers - but most times he got an opportunity last weekend 1 on 1 he gave away a stupid free kick.

Billy's talented, but I believe he needs some time at Footscray to find the footy again. I imagine plenty would prefer he not play again, though I'm not in that camp.

The kick the ball thing - yeah I hear you, except that how often have we just blazed long into the F50 over the past few years only for the ball to come back the other way? It was bordering on insane at one point. Do think Bailey Smith overuses handball early in possession, but as he gets more confident that should balance out (he's going to be so good)

Can't argue the point about Rohan on Wood early, although he did take a pretty nice catch at one point that would've been hard to spoil. Plenty have been scathing of Easton this season, and our starts have also not been great.

Roberts wasn't horrible, but didn't look like halving contests that Hawkins goaled from when those opportunities arose. When the time came, he looked too easy to play against.

[mjp]

It's not that there isn't criticism of the better players (search the forum by "Hunter" if you don't believe me), its that the selection of Gowers, Hayes, Roberts etc are problems that seem to be of our own doing and are immediately fixable by they players available in the seconds.

This is a match committee thread, after all.

This is where I get driven crazy. Dropping Hayes wont solve a single thing. Nor will dropping Gowers. Nor will dropping Roberts. We will just bring in a new round of whipping boys.

I get the Williams love on one level...but he has played two games this year. And he was BAD. Very, very BAD. Now somehow replacing Hayes with Williams is going to 'FIX IT'? Well, this is where I don't get it...

Replacing Hayes with Lipinski? Go for it. But Lipinski is really, really slow. And maybe he will be better...and maybe he wont.

When I read people say that they are 'done' with their memberships if Gowers or Hayes are selected, give me a break. All we really want from guys at the bottom end of the playing list is effort. Hayes brings effort. Has he played the perfect first few games? Probably not...Has he played the WORST? Definitely not. What happened to the 20-game rule where we gave guys the benefit of the doubt.

Sling off at Gowers - fine. But when Schache last played everyone was (justifiably) up in arms about his performance as well.

As for it being a match committee thread, well, is it? Where is the discussion of match-ups, North's strong and weak points, the thing that makes their game go...it is just a whole heap of us piling on 3 blokes...I seem to recall one post even said to drop the match committee 'cos they keep picking guys who aren't up to it?

Match committee isn't about dropping players. It is about selecting a team and adjusting a game-style to beat a specific opponent. It just feels like we have abandoned that sort of discussion and now just furiously agree with each other that kicking a few blokes to the curb will solve everything?

I don't mean to aim all of this at you by the way HD - but it is just exhausting reading the same arguments every week...to me this is OUR thread - not the clubs. So since we don't KNOW what they are going to do, should we start by how we are going to counter Brown and how we will stop Cunnington around the contest and exactly WHO will take responsibility for Higgins?

[Happy Days]

This is where I get driven crazy. Dropping Hayes wont solve a single thing. Nor will dropping Gowers. Nor will dropping Roberts. We will just bring in a new round of whipping boys.

I get the Williams love on one level...but he has played two games this year. And he was BAD. Very, very BAD. Now somehow replacing Hayes with Williams is going to 'FIX IT'? Well, this is where I don't get it...

Replacing Hayes with Lipinski? Go for it. But Lipinski is really, really slow. And maybe he will be better...and maybe he wont.

When I read people say that they are 'done' with their memberships if Gowers or Hayes are selected, give me a break. All we really want from guys at the bottom end of the playing list is effort. Hayes brings effort. Has he played the perfect first few games? Probably not...Has he played the WORST? Definitely not. What happened to the 20-game rule where we gave guys the benefit of the doubt.

Sling off at Gowers - fine. But when Schache last played everyone was (justifiably) up in arms about his performance as well.

As for it being a match committee thread, well, is it? Where is the discussion of match-ups, North's strong and weak points, the thing that makes their game go...it is just a whole heap of us piling on 3 blokes...I seem to recall one post even said to drop the match committee 'cos they keep picking guys who aren't up to it?

Match committee isn't about dropping players. It is about selecting a team and adjusting a game-style to beat a specific opponent. It just feels like we have abandoned that sort of discussion and now just furiously agree with each other that kicking a few blokes to the curb will solve everything?

I don't mean to aim all of this at you by the way HD - but it is just exhausting reading the same arguments every week...to me this is OUR thread - not the clubs. So since we don't KNOW what they are going to do, should we start by how we are going to counter Brown and how we will stop Cunnington around the contest and exactly WHO will take responsibility for Higgins?

Fair, and thanks for expanding on your point; I don't and won't ever take anything with thought put into it personally. I honestly don't think there's that much wrong with the side at the moment, and sanding off the edges will help a fair bit, but it's not essential.

Do we need to tag/take responsibility for Higgins? Kelly didn't really hurt us too badly last week (unless you were watching the game through Chris Scott's eyes according to the coaches' votes), and he's a far more dynamic and quick player in a similar role. Obviously there's some sort of opposition to be put before him, but the best way to contain may be to win the midfield battle generally and force greater stoppage accountability. I kinda view taggers as a loss leader anyway, and the guys I would task with pinning him down (Dunkley or Wallis) are more valuable to us as offensive weapons, be it in the middle (Dunkley) or I50 (Wallis).

I said this elsewhere but Brown sucks. He is a one trick pony and is totally reliant on the ball being put on a single plot point or being paid a free kick. If we can't contain him with what we have then our problems down back are more severe than I imagined. He will get 2-3 goals from sheer weight of entry directed to him but he's not impactful on games at all when he isn't having a set shot, and is a a trampoline once the ball hits the ground. I'd even be fine with Roberts on him.

North's midfield make-up actually bares some similarities to the Carlton one that messed us up, albeit with lesser talent. Goldstein is a skilled tap ruckman and much like Kreuzer makes the whole midfield better and more dangerous. I think we let him (Kreuzer) control traffic against us too much and it let Cripps and SPS get on top, and could easily be something that repeats itself with akin players like Cunnington and all those spreaders (Polec has killed us before too). If Tim plays then he could take a tip from Trengove and try to neutralise as much as tap in the ruck, and then beat him around the ground like he did Nankervis and Lobb. I'm really confident in our midfield to win more 50-50 balls than North, and Trengove's dirty boxing approach to ruckwork is more conducive to us winning games right now.

Basically I think our mids are better than theirs and if given an equal opportunity will beat them and we will win. Containment will flow on from being better.

[Bullies]

I like Gowers - but most times he got an opportunity last weekend 1 on 1 he gave away a stupid free kick.

Billy's talented, but I believe he needs some time at Footscray to find the footy again. I imagine plenty would prefer he not play again, though I'm not in that camp.

The kick the ball thing - yeah I hear you, except that how often have we just blazed long into the F50 over the past few years only for the ball to come back the other way? It was bordering on insane at one point. Do think Bailey Smith overuses handball early in possession, but as he gets more confident that should balance out (he's going to be so good)

Can't argue the point about Rohan on Wood early, although he did take a pretty nice catch at one point that would've been hard to spoil. Plenty have been scathing of Easton this season, and our starts have also not been great.

Roberts wasn't horrible, but didn't look like halving contests that Hawkins goaled from when those opportunities arose. When the time came, he looked too easy to play against. this is our problem. Billy is not talented.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

The team in the past 3 games has performed pretty well against good teams in Richmond Brisbane and Geelong whose extra class and experience proved to be the difference.
To be a final 8 contender we still need to improve. I would like to see the recall of the likes of Lew Young, Lipinski Williams and Dale for an extended period given their good consistent form with Footscray. Without taking a bold approach we are in danger of stagnating. This is the ideal week against North Melbourne to refresh our side. There is also a need by the MC to put a better structure in place. It would seem that the WB needs Trengrove as a key defender and that our forward line looks better with a second key forward to support Naughton.

[GVGjr]

This is where I get driven crazy. Dropping Hayes wont solve a single thing. Nor will dropping Gowers. Nor will dropping Roberts. We will just bring in a new round of whipping boys.

I get the Williams love on one level...but he has played two games this year. And he was BAD. Very, very BAD. Now somehow replacing Hayes with Williams is going to 'FIX IT'? Well, this is where I don't get it...



I'm not sure I agree with the logic, there have been a few players that have put in bad games and survived being chopped after just one game. Regarding Williams, he trained all pre-season with the midfielders and was assigned to the backline for the first game.
He was promptly sent back to Footscray after a poor game where he put together some good games. He returned again to the seniors and was again less than impressive and was promptly dropped after just one game.

I look at this from a different perspective, his ceiling is vastly higher than some of the players that are allowed to work though a bad game or two so I think he deserves a bit better than just coming in and out of the team unless there is other reasons we aren't quite privy to.

I was critical of Gowers at times last year but I don't he's been as bad this year. While he is kicking goals he is making a compelling reason for him to be selected. Hayes is serviceable but has some limitations.

While we are transitioning I think there is a case for playing guys like Schache and Williams more than they are being selected and for that matter Lewis Young, Lynch and Lipinski as well. We need to find out if some of these guys have a genuine future with us and we won't really know while they are playing at Footscray

[mjp]

While we are transitioning I think there is a case for playing guys like Schache and Williams more than they are being selected and for that matter Lewis Young, Lynch and Lipinski as well. We need to find out if some of these guys have a genuine future with us and we won't really know while they are playing at Footscray

(I just picked out one bit to quote but really mean everything).

I don't disagree with what you are saying - but promoting Lipinski/Williams/Schache/the man in the moon because they have potential/we need to have an extended look/whatever is very different to 'drop Hayes 'cos he is crap and play xxxxx 'cos he is better'.

I understand the angst with Williams being in and out and training mid/playing back etc but I think it is a stretch to suggest that he doesn't know WHY he is out of the team and WHAT he is supposed to be doing better. Yo-Yo'ing players NEVER works in my experience - he was already up and down once and I think he should only be promoted once he has:

1/. A clear role.
2/. Clear expectations about what he needs to do to keep it (that aren't necessarily numbers related).

The comments about the ceiling are fair, but if we REALLY, REALLY want him to be a long-term player for us then we need to be working him to a long term plan. Playing him in the AFL cos we are worried Adelaide might recruit him? Well, whatever. The coaches shouldn't be concerned with that - they should be having honest conversations, building a sustainable relationship and holding him accountable to a development plan.

I think you know I love Le Young and want him to play. But he was SPOOKED that last game he played for us (wouldn't kick inside) and I said at the time you could mount an argument his decisions with the footy COST us the game (GC)...taking the easy option and kicking to a contest doesn't upset supporters as much as 'turnovers in the corridor'...but to me they are worse because they are a failure to adhere to the plan and take away a chance to score...anyway, I read he has been doing some ruck work/forward work back at Footscray so it seems the coaches have a plan to help him...

This isn't easy. Young players develop at different rates and as long as the players are being held accountable to their measurables, well, is that bad? Schache shouldn't just play ahead of Gowers because supporters think he should - Schache should play once he fixes some of the non-competitive stuff that has plagued his career and marred his last AFL game. Gowers may be a complete moron on the field at times, but you cannot say he doesn't bring effort...what are we judging him on???

[mjp]

Basically I think our mids are better than theirs and if given an equal opportunity will beat them and we will win. Containment will flow on from being better.

That's all fair enough. I just think our season so far features good wins/performances against 'good' teams...and bad ones against lesser teams. For North to beat us:

Brown has to kick goals.
Higgins has to win the footy/kick inside 50m.
Cunnington has to win clearances.
(You could add Ziebell as he is in good form but we cant worry about them all).

We need clear plans for all 3. This game is a non-negotiable win and to me leaving it up to our mids - who didn't bring effort against a lesser midfield in Carlton - has disaster written all over it. Have a plan for the key forward, shut down one inside (Cunnington) and one outside (Higgins) and if Kane Turner (or someone else) jumps up and kicks 7 in a career best game, well, fine...but the ones we know about should not be allowed to get us even for a single second.

We played well last week. That doesn't matter this week - this week we have to WIN.

[Mofra]

I think you know I love Le Young and want him to play. But he was SPOOKED that last game he played for us (wouldn't kick inside) and I said at the time you could mount an argument his decisions with the footy COST us the game (GC)...taking the easy option and kicking to a contest doesn't upset supporters as much as 'turnovers in the corridor'...but to me they are worse because they are a failure to adhere to the plan and take away a chance to score...anyway, I read he has been doing some ruck work/forward work back at Footscray so it seems the coaches have a plan to help him...

This isn't easy. Young players develop at different rates and as long as the players are being held accountable to their measurables, well, is that bad? Schache shouldn't just play ahead of Gowers because supporters think he should - Schache should play once he fixes some of the non-competitive stuff that has plagued his career and marred his last AFL game. Gowers may be a complete moron on the field at times, but you cannot say he doesn't bring effort...what are we judging him on???
Le Young - getting him into the contest means he has to kick more, and we desperately need someone who can play second ruck in the absence of Trengove playing predominantly back. It's a good move and TBH from what I've seen at VFL level he's bringing more attack on the ball right now than Schache.

Gowers is aggressive, it's more than just effort he brings that I'm happy with - lus he hits the scoreboard which is clearly something we need. For a guy who was one the rookie list and no certainty to even debut 18 months ago he's ahead of where we could reasonably expect IMO.

My preference is to play McLean further up the ground as he seems better suited there than in the F50, we have Dale who has shown real promise in the HF role and who is now hitting the scoreboard at VFL level, he's ready to come in.

[mjp]

My preference is to play McLean further up the ground as he seems better suited there than in the F50, we have Dale who has shown real promise in the HF role and who is now hitting the scoreboard at VFL level, he's ready to come in.

But where does McLean move up too? There is a bit of a log-jam further up the ground and of all of the players in there, he seems to make the best fist out of playing a permanent role in the forward line...

It is good to hear that Dale is playing well in the VFL because 2018 was a real wasted year for him in terms of 'tangible' improvement...I mean, he might have gotten better but he kept it pretty well under wraps - a horrific night game against Port I think comes to mind where it appeared as if he had never played a game before in his life! We all know he's better than he showed in 2018 - but it is the same thing with Williams this year - individual improvement is not always a linear track.

[Happy Days]

I sorta feel that Young hasn't been right/confident since that GWS game a few years ago.

[Mofra]

But where does McLean move up too? There is a bit of a log-jam further up the ground and of all of the players in there, he seems to make the best fist out of playing a permanent role in the forward line...

It is good to hear that Dale is playing well in the VFL because 2018 was a real wasted year for him in terms of 'tangible' improvement...I mean, he might have gotten better but he kept it pretty well under wraps - a horrific night game against Port I think comes to mind where it appeared as if he had never played a game before in his life! We all know he's better than he showed in 2018 - but it is the same thing with Williams this year - individual improvement is not always a linear track.
Wing, given like most I think Hayes needs a spell.
Dale can also rotate on the wing to give McLean a chop out and Toby does seem to have his moments in getting the ball for shallow F50 entries, I'm a McLean fan but I'm not convinced he contributes for 120 minutes when playing permanent forward.

If Suckling is out due injury, that presents a challenge but Williams has been playing behind the ball at VFL level and should know our system well to slot straight back in even though Suckling has been thrown around a bit.

[Mofra]

I sorta feel that Young hasn't been right/confident since that GWS game a few years ago.
He's only 5 months younger than Lachie Young and is clearly a project player but I've been surprised/impressed with his work as a mobile shortish ruckman. The fact that he can judge the ball in flight is a real attribute. I do wonder how he'd go if exposed to forwardline work at the highest level and think he'll get his chance this year.

[bornadog]

Out:

Gowers - Last two games 14 disposals in total and 1 goal. He is there to kick goals and is not doing it.

Hayes - At this stage, he is just not up to AFL standard


In: Dale - replaces Gowers, has been kicking goals in VFL

Le Young: We need another tall and he is showing good form in VFL.

If English is fit he comes in and Roberts makes way for Trengove to go back.

I could make a case for Young to go out for Williams, but not sure it will happen. If Suckling is out then Williams comes in.

[GVGjr]

(I just picked out one bit to quote but really mean everything).

I don't disagree with what you are saying - but promoting Lipinski/Williams/Schache/the man in the moon because they have potential/we need to have an extended look/whatever is very different to 'drop Hayes 'cos he is crap and play xxxxx 'cos he is better'.

I understand the angst with Williams being in and out and training mid/playing back etc but I think it is a stretch to suggest that he doesn't know WHY he is out of the team and WHAT he is supposed to be doing better. Yo-Yo'ing players NEVER works in my experience - he was already up and down once and I think he should only be promoted once he has:

1/. A clear role.
2/. Clear expectations about what he needs to do to keep it (that aren't necessarily numbers related).

The comments about the ceiling are fair, but if we REALLY, REALLY want him to be a long-term player for us then we need to be working him to a long term plan. Playing him in the AFL cos we are worried Adelaide might recruit him? Well, whatever. The coaches shouldn't be concerned with that - they should be having honest conversations, building a sustainable relationship and holding him accountable to a development plan.

I think you know I love Le Young and want him to play. But he was SPOOKED that last game he played for us (wouldn't kick inside) and I said at the time you could mount an argument his decisions with the footy COST us the game (GC)...taking the easy option and kicking to a contest doesn't upset supporters as much as 'turnovers in the corridor'...but to me they are worse because they are a failure to adhere to the plan and take away a chance to score...anyway, I read he has been doing some ruck work/forward work back at Footscray so it seems the coaches have a plan to help him...

This isn't easy. Young players develop at different rates and as long as the players are being held accountable to their measurables, well, is that bad? Schache shouldn't just play ahead of Gowers because supporters think he should - Schache should play once he fixes some of the non-competitive stuff that has plagued his career and marred his last AFL game. Gowers may be a complete moron on the field at times, but you cannot say he doesn't bring effort...what are we judging him on???

I'm not saying all of Lynch, Greene, Lewis Young, Lipiniski etc etc need to be picked each week but I don't want to get to the end of the season with players coming out of contract or attracting interest from other clubs because they can't get a game in the seniors and not really know if they have the ability to become regular senior players in the future with us.
We've had Roarke Smith for example on the list for a number of years now and I don't think anyone can put their hand on their heart and say yes he is good enough to play senior football. I don't think we can we really finish the season with too many question marks on players.

[Mofra]

We've had Roarke Smith for example on the list for a number of years now and I don't think anyone can put their hand on their heart and say yes he is good enough to play senior football. I don't think we can we really finish the season with too many question marks on players.
I'll go against the grain here, I think he's shown glimpses but no way he's close to Duryea as a defender.

I actually do think he's shown a little promise as a defensive forward and it is a role we could fill. It's hard to imagine how he'd look without two knee recos.

[Rocket Science]

Lewy Young's the closest thing we have to a budding Hamling replacement, with (on paper) more strings to his bow which should suit Bevo down to the ground in theory.

There's also the added benefit of being able to deploy Trengove and Naughton as we choose rather than as we're forced to.

He's clocked up all of 11 games so of course there'll be more growing pains but we're suffering through those with others so why not a guy who'll make us infinitely more dangerous once he acclimates properly.

[comrade]

Lewy Young's the closest thing we have to a budding Hamling replacement, with (on paper) more strings to his bow which should suit Bevo down to the ground in theory.

There's also the added benefit of being able to deploy Trengove and Naughton as we choose rather than as we're forced to.

He's clocked up all of 11 games so of course there'll be more growing pains but we're suffering through those with others so why not a guy who'll make us infinitely more dangerous once he acclimates properly.

I think that’s what frustrates people when the likes of Hayes or Roberts are getting picked. Yeah, those two playing aren’t the difference between winning and losing right now, but they’re being picked ahead of younger players with more potential that may become difference makers long term.

[GVGjr]

I'll go against the grain here, I think he's shown glimpses but no way he's close to Duryea as a defender.

I actually do think he's shown a little promise as a defensive forward and it is a role we could fill. It's hard to imagine how he'd look without two knee recos.

I've actually suggested his name as a potential inclusion a couple of times but if we get to the end of the season and he isn't given more than a couple of games I don't know how we can keep him on the list.

[Mofra]

I've actually suggested his name as a potential inclusion a couple of times but if we get to the end of the season and he isn't given more than a couple of games I don't know how we can keep him on the list.
I guess we need to decide where he shows promise before we come to that - is it as a smaller, lockdown defender? They're in short supply (pardon the pun), Daniel is a rebounder not lockdown and Doc is in the last years of his career. We go with JJ?

We do lack a defensive / hard nosed forward but I really like Wally in that role even if Bevo wants to keep playing him up the ground. He's a smart player and seems to just get tot he right spot unopposed once per game at a time you don't expect him to.

[chef]

4 good changes. Bevos been reading woof.

[Eastdog]

4 good changes. Bevos been reading woof.

I like those ins. Bevo has swung the axe.

[bornadog]

10 goal better side ;)

[whythelongface]

4 good changes. Bevos been reading woof.

Yes happy with the changes. Great to see Dale and Lipinski get their chances as well a return for Williams. English back in is a bonus

[Rocket Science]

#Baileypalooza

Pleasing ins, and pleasing a message has been sent to one of the outs.

Get better Billy and mount a new case.

[GVGjr]

In: B.Dale, T.English, P.Lipinski, B.Williams
Out: F.Roberts, B.Gowers, W.Hayes, La.Young

I hope we have someone in mind to tag Higgins

[Mofra]

I hope English is fit to play. Surprised we don't have a second marking forward option.

Is this our first game with Triple Baileys in?

[bornadog]

I hope English is fit to play. Surprised we don't have a second marking forward option.

Is this our first game with Triple Baileys in?
yes it is

[hujsh]

I hope English is fit to play. Surprised we don't have a second marking forward option.

Is this our first game with Triple Baileys in?

It must be.

Now we'll go on an unbeaten streak the likes of which has never been seen

[Mofra]

In: B.Dale, T.English, P.Lipinski, B.Williams
Out: F.Roberts, B.Gowers, W.Hayes, La.Young

I hope we have someone in mind to tag Higgins
Higgins has been out of form compared to his last two years. Some North fans want him out of their midfield rotations.

North can turn the ball over a lot - if our mids pressure the ball carrier, we win this. It really does come down to how disciplined our running players are.

[Eastdog]

#Baileypalooza

Pleasing ins, and pleasing a message has been sent to one of the outs.

Get better Billy and mount a new case.

Selection based on form not playing favourites. The MC has been smart this week.

[bulldogtragic]

I really like it. But it's unclear to me who our formal decoy up forward is.

[Rocket Science]

I hope we have someone in mind to tag Higgins

If Bevo deigns to assign a tag, I could see an in-form Dunkley spelling a dirty day for Higgins.

[Rocket Science]

I really like it. But it's unclear to me who our formal decoy up forward is.

The Bont according to the named side.

I hope we don't waste Dale's smooth distribution down there.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I like all the ins. Feel a bit for Fletch, he had a real tough gig last week and wasn't actually that bad. Plus I do feel we play better with another big body down back. Maybe Trengove will spend most of the day in defence.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I hope English is fit to play. Surprised we don't have a second marking forward option.

Is this our first game with Triple Baileys in?
Agree with your thoughts. This was an ideal time to alternate Lew Young and English in the ruck and up forward, otherwise the selected team looks pretty good.

[FrediKanoute]

Its 4 good changes, which structurally will leave us better placed to combat the main threats that North pose. If I had one change I disagree with its Gowers out for Dale. I think Dale is probably a little under done and could do with a couple more weeks. I also think that whilst Gowers has stunk it up big time this year and his errors have outweighed his contribution, he is strong in the air and provides a foil for Naughton. Structurally we are asking a HUGE amount of Naughton to kick our goals and be the focal point. If you were going to drop Gowers then I think you had to bring in Schache.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Its 4 good changes, which structurally will leave us better placed to combat the main threats that North pose. If I had one change I disagree with its Gowers out for Dale. I think Dale is probably a little under done and could do with a couple more weeks. I also think that whilst Gowers has stunk it up big time this year and his errors have outweighed his contribution, he is strong in the air and provides a foil for Naughton. Structurally we are asking a HUGE amount of Naughton to kick our goals and be the focal point. If you were going to drop Gowers then I think you had to bring in Schache.

Yeah good thoughts. Naughton can't be expected to be the single focal point. Let's not destroy the kid. It's a huge ask. The problem is, Gowers certainly needed to be dropped, but Scache really didn't deserve to be elevated. It's complicated...... Not sure what the answer is.

[josie]

Lippy & Bonti & Maclean and Dale all to have stints in F50. Bonti to play mid/forward 50/50 or 40/60. Wally mainly forward. I like this match selection and think we will play better. Gowers to be elevated once he learns to kick straighter and be more disciplined (less stupid free kicks). I would love to have seen West as small forward too. If English not quite right it would not surprise me if he is late inclusion.

[Twodogs]

It must be.

Now we'll go on an unbeaten streak the likes of which has never been seen

And win the flag at the end of the year?

One Bailey can win the Rising Sun.
One Bailey can the Norm Smith
One Bailey can win the Brownlow.

[Twodogs]

In that contest, Fort grabbed Hunter and threw him aside.

Can someone tell me where in the rule book it says you can do that?

It's in the Kardinia Park supplement (Written by the Geelong rules committee with Hocking, Dangerfiend and anyone else from Geelong who wants to put their hand up) that was released in 2019.

The trade/draft section of the Kardinia Park supplement to the rules came out in 2017 so they could get poor little Gary home after he had realised what an awful mistake he had made leaving the comfortable confines of KP in the first place.

[MrMahatma]

Happy to see those changes.

Stoked to see English back. We’ve missed him. The other lads will give us a slightly different look and I’d say a better skill level.

[hujsh]

And win the flag at the end of the year?

One Bailey can win the Rising Sun.
One Bailey can the Norm Smith
One Bailey can win the Brownlow.

Well for it to be an unbeaten run the likes of which has never been seen it'll have to go into next year so yes it will include a premiership.

I'd also expect one Baily to win the Coleman.

And I'd prefer Smith to win the Rising Star as the Rising Sun implies they play for GC

[Go_Dogs]

We made changes most of us were asking for the last few weeks. Good stuff.

Expecting a big win on Saturday even though we always seem to have struggling, scrappy games v Norf.

[bornadog]

We made changes most of us were asking for the last few weeks. Good stuff.

Expecting a big win on Saturday even though we always seem to have struggling, scrappy games v Norf.

Last 4 games the difference has been 5, 2, 1, 3 with both teams winning 2.

North are still an old team with the average games over 110, to our 82.

[Mofra]

I like all the ins. Feel a bit for Fletch, he had a real tough gig last week and wasn't actually that bad. Plus I do feel we play better with another big body down back. Maybe Trengove will spend most of the day in defence.
With English back I'd imagine that's the plan. Trengove to Brown, Cordy to Larkey, swap them as a plan B option.

[bornadog]

I wonder if there is a late change with Suckling?

Who would come in? Emergencies are: L Young, R West, B Gowers, L Young

[Mofra]

Its 4 good changes, which structurally will leave us better placed to combat the main threats that North pose. If I had one change I disagree with its Gowers out for Dale. I think Dale is probably a little under done and could do with a couple more weeks. I also think that whilst Gowers has stunk it up big time this year and his errors have outweighed his contribution, he is strong in the air and provides a foil for Naughton. Structurally we are asking a HUGE amount of Naughton to kick our goals and be the focal point. If you were going to drop Gowers then I think you had to bring in Schache.
I think Dale has been banging the door down and deserves his shot.

I do worry about the second tall forward option though. We started the year playing Naughton forward with both Schache and Gowers.

[Mofra]

I wonder if there is a late change with Suckling?

Who would come in? Emergencies are: L Young, R West, B Gowers, L Young
L Young :p

Honestly, I wouldn't mind Lewis Young getting a run forward, he can go back too especially when Trengove rucks to relieve English.

[Mantis]

Its 4 good changes, which structurally will leave us better placed to combat the main threats that North pose. If I had one change I disagree with its Gowers out for Dale. I think Dale is probably a little under done and could do with a couple more weeks. I also think that whilst Gowers has stunk it up big time this year and his errors have outweighed his contribution, he is strong in the air and provides a foil for Naughton. Structurally we are asking a HUGE amount of Naughton to kick our goals and be the focal point. If you were going to drop Gowers then I think you had to bring in Schache.

I think we will see Bont play forward a bit more this week, which hopefully means Libba is pushed up into the midfield rotation.


I wonder if there is a late change with Suckling?

Who would come in? Emergencies are: L Young, R West, B Gowers, L Young

Bevo mentioned this morning in his presser that Suckling has trained well and will play.

[ratsmac]

I like the changes but like others I worry that Naughton has been left one out to be our only marking tall up forward. I would have liked to see Schache given another go because he at least draws a tall defender away from Naughty. Tarrant will play on Naughton you'd think and he's a quality defender that is hard to beat one on one let alone someone else giving him a chop out.
Gowers isn't a tall but he can do a decent block from time to time for someone his size. Someone will need to play that role in his place and I can't see it being Lippa or Dale. I would actually like to see how Williams would go in this role but I can't see it happening as he'll be required down back I'd say.
Hopefully Lippa shows the MC that he should of been in the side from round 1. I'm scared he might be Webb mark II. We saw Webb get sent back to the two's to add more strings to his bow and he hasn't yet really come on as we'd hoped. Hopefully Lippa has learned a thing or two back in the magoos.
North always feel confident against us so I hope we don't bring our GC/Carlton mentality with us. We need to win and get back percentage lost last week.

[comrade]

Just play Bont forward for 75%, and give him a run in the midfield if they're getting on top in there.

Libba, Macrae & Dunkley with help from Smith, McLean & Bont should be good enough to blunt North's mids.

[bornadog]

Bevo mentioned this morning in his presser that Suckling has trained well and will play.

Thanks for that I missed it.

For others here are the tweets on the Presser:

* LB: North have always been a more mature & physically side than us. They’ve always been pretty dour, contested games. They’ve changed, we’re expecting to face a different North side. It’s going to be a different game to ones historically.

* LB: We’ve made some adjustments in defence, we’ve got a solid representation down there & we expect our mid to make sure the pressure is there & the forwards will do the same.

* LB: Matt Suckling trained extremely well & expelled any doubts he won’t be fit. He’ll take his spot in the team.

* LB: Tim is right to go, unfortunately had a significant bleed after the corky which created some soreness around the knee. He’s fine, he’ll play.

* LB: Patty has mostly been a winger/forwards. There’s a few things Patty has been working on. He’s been playing as a inside mid for Footscray, & we’ll give him an opportunity there at AFL level with the chance to play on the outside too.

* LB: We’re only four five in the win/loss ratio, most of our games we’ve been in there. It was time to break the circuit & for a few boys to get their form back, plus we need to give some boys an opportunity who have been banging the door down

[bornadog]

Just play Bont forward for 75%, and give him a run in the midfield if they're getting on top in there.

Libba, Macrae & Dunkley with help from Smith, McLean & Bont should be good enough to blunt North's mids.

Hunter usually racks up the possessions against this mob. Last time he had 44 disposals, and has done that before as well against North.

[comrade]

Hunter usually racks up the possessions against this mob. Last time he had 44 disposals, and has done that before as well against North.

Yeah, no doubt. I was just referring more to the guys who will take the centre bounces.

If Hunter has 40+ tomorrow, here's hoping he uses it like the first half vs Geelong. That was his best display of ball usage for a long time.

[Mantis]

Just play Bont forward for 75%, and give him a run in the midfield if they're getting on top in there.

Libba, Macrae & Dunkley with help from Smith, McLean & Bont should be good enough to blunt North's mids.

Wallis & Lipinski will also help out in there. Besides Higgins Norf don't really have much class/ pace in there so suggested we have enough bodies to go through the middle if Bont is forward.

Would love to see Libba go to Higgins and give him hell, also like to allow Dunkley to go 1 on 1 with Cunnington.

[Mofra]

Would love to see Libba go to Higgins and give him hell, also like to allow Dunkley to go 1 on 1 with Cunnington.
I like both of these, especially if the Bont is playing more forward.

We need to rotate runners on Polec, he has some weird 'ball retention' rate stat with his kicking which is in the top handful in the AFL.

[mjp]

The bottom 3 sides on the ladder are Carlton, North and GC. If we had just taken care of business vs Carlton and GC we would be 6-3 right now. Let’s hope we treat this game with the importance it deserves.

I worry about Bevo’s comments about it being a different game to past battles vs NM. We should be looking to take this game away from north by focussing pressure on their better players, not just roll the dice in head to heads. Officially worried right now.

[comrade]

Wallis & Lipinski will also help out in there. Besides Higgins Norf don't really have much class/ pace in there so suggested we have enough bodies to go through the middle if Bont is forward.

Would love to see Libba go to Higgins and give him hell, also like to allow Dunkley to go 1 on 1 with Cunnington.

Yeah, totally forgot Wallis & based on Bevo's comments, sounds like Lippa will also get a crack in the middle.

We are chockas for inside mids, and the cupboard is bare up forward. We're way better balance with Bont forward.

[Mofra]

Yeah, totally forgot Wallis & based on Bevo's comments, sounds like Lippa will also get a crack in the middle.

We are chockas for inside mids, and the cupboard is bare up forward. We're way better balance with Bont forward.
Plot twist - Lippi spends some time playing on Cunnington. Cunnington is fantastic but sloooow, and Lippi uses the ball well generally.

[Mantis]

We are chockas for inside mids, and the cupboard is bare up forward. We're way better balance with Bont forward.

What we do lose is Bont's poise & kicking ability in the midfield.. Most of the inside mids mentioned are poor on the spread or working away from the clearance situation so expect lots of 'hack' kicks going our way.

[comrade]

What we do lose is Bont's poise & kicking ability in the midfield.. Most of the inside mids mentioned are poor on the spread or working away from the clearance situation so expect lots of 'hack' kicks going our way.

I'm hoping Smith takes another step forward and uses his foot skills more this week. Libba is also good when he has some space.

If we're relying heavily on Dunkley and Wallis to get us inside 50, then yeah...good luck Naughts.

[GVGjr]

The bottom 3 sides on the ladder are Carlton, North and GC. If we had just taken care of business vs Carlton and GC we would be 6-3 right now. Let’s hope we treat this game with the importance it deserves.

I worry about Bevo’s comments about it being a different game to past battles vs NM. We should be looking to take this game away from north by focussing pressure on their better players, not just roll the dice in head to heads. Officially worried right now.

We've had some dour uninspired contests over the last few years so I hope this one has us kicking a few more goals

A win against either Carlton or the Suns would have in a vastly stronger position so I guess the challenge for us is to make sure we don't play poorly against the poorer sides

A couple of tags might be in order but it's not our normal approach. Williams on Higgins is something I'd like to see and Dunkley or Liberatore on Cunnington makes sense as well

Important game for us.

[mjp]

A couple of tags might be in order but it's not our normal approach. Williams on Higgins is something I'd like to see and Dunkley or Liberatore on Cunnington makes sense as well



Yeah - I know it's not our normal approach. But doing something 'different' to stress to the players the importance of this contest would be a good idea. It is easy to get up for Richmond and Geelong - we played well in both games. It is not easy to get up for 'bottom sides' (we still have a core of players who seem to believe the 2016 finals series was yesterday whenever we play a team down the bottom of the ladder) and I don't think we should be taking any chances.

Handing it over to the on-field leaders in the way we did vs Carlton is 100% not the answer.

[Rocket Science]

Noted this line with curiosity from Bevo's presser; "Those four changes were no-brainers in the end as far as our philosophy goes".

Extrapolate away ...

[comrade]

Noted this line with curiosity from Bevo's presser; "Those four changes were no-brainers in the end as far as our philosophy goes".

Extrapolate away ...

Multi-position versatility.

Williams - back and mid
Dale - mid and forward
English - ruck and around the ground
Lipinksi - forward and inside mid

[mjp]

Extrapolate away ...

I would think it has something to do with both training and match-day KPI's/measures based around pressure/skill ex/whatever it is the group is valuing....the guys who were left out have been missing them, the guys that have been selected have been hitting them...

Things like that are visible to the playing group and it enables them to feel 'positive' about the correlation between performance and selection.

[The Pie Man]

Noted this line with curiosity from Bevo's presser; "Those four changes were no-brainers in the end as far as our philosophy goes".

Extrapolate away ...

It’s a new philosophy, one where we take The Pie Man’s suggested changes from WOOF and just run with those.

....I’ll show myself out

[mjp]

It’s a new philosophy, one where we take The Pie Man’s suggested changes from WOOF and just run with those.

....I’ll show myself out

And that's fine. So if we do a little bit of low level contingency planning:

1/. What happens if Trengove (assume playing back) or Cordy gets injured?
2/. What happens if English gets injured or is having his butt handed to him by Goldstein. (And be aware, if Trengove is the answer then you also need to apply the plan for #1.
3/. What happens if Naughton gets injured (and again, be aware, if 'Naughton back' was the answer to either of the above...).

I am all happy with the changes - no trouble - but let's not kid ourselves for a second that this team is balanced or that if things go awry we have plan b.

[GVGjr]

And that's fine. So if we do a little bit of low level contingency planning:

1/. What happens if Trengove (assume playing back) or Cordy gets injured?
2/. What happens if English gets injured or is having his butt handed to him by Goldstein. (And be aware, if Trengove is the answer then you also need to apply the plan for #1.
3/. What happens if Naughton gets injured (and again, be aware, if 'Naughton back' was the answer to either of the above...).

I am all happy with the changes - no trouble - but let's not kid ourselves for a second that this team is balanced or that if things go awry we have plan b.

Do we have players available at Footscray and in good enough form to better balance the side?

I think Lewis Young and Schache are players we should have considered, well at least one of two of them.

Could Dunkley be used as a key defender at a pinch if we did have to cover an injury? and of course Wood can play tall as well.

[mjp]

Do we have players available at Footscray and in good enough form to better balance the side?

I think Lewis Young and Schache are players we should have considered, well at least one of two of them.

Could Dunkley be used as a key defender at a pinch if we did have to cover an injury? and of course Wood can play tall as well.

...and so it goes.

For Gowers to come out, I think either Young or Schache had to come in. Because now we are where we are...I agree 100% on the 'Wood will have to play tall' thing - he probably will/can - but this seems to be one of the things that upsets people the most.

We need a marking target to complement Naughton...but more to the point, we need a marking target for when Naughton is off resting OR if he has to go back OR if he gets injured...

Look, it *should* be OK...but match committee....

[LostDoggy]

Well for it to be an unbeaten run the likes of which has never been seen it'll have to go into next year so yes it will include a premiership.

I'd also expect one Baily to win the Coleman.

And I'd prefer Smith to win the Rising Star as the Rising Sun implies they play for GC

Norm Smith Smith

[The Pie Man]

...and so it goes.

For Gowers to come out, I think either Young or Schache had to come in. Because now we are where we are...I agree 100% on the 'Wood will have to play tall' thing - he probably will/can - but this seems to be one of the things that upsets people the most.

We need a marking target to complement Naughton...but more to the point, we need a marking target for when Naughton is off resting OR if he has to go back OR if he gets injured...

Look, it *should* be OK...but match committee....

But do we though?

We’ve gone deliberately small before to force our mids to lower their eyes. Some of our better games were with Picken & Dickson kicking the bulk of our score.

My/The changes were closest to like for like in some form, with the idea that Trengove would play back. I know Dale doesn’t play exactly like Gowers but a different look could be beneficial. Libba spending more time in the middle (and potentially on Higgins which is a suggestion made elsewhere that I think has merit) also appeals.

[mjp]

But do we though?

We’ve gone deliberately small before to force our mids to lower their eyes. Some of our better games were with Picken & Dickson kicking the bulk of our score.

My/The changes were closest to like for like in some form, with the idea that Trengove would play back. I know Dale doesn’t play exactly like Gowers but a different look could be beneficial. Libba spending more time in the middle (and potentially on Higgins which is a suggestion made elsewhere that I think has merit) also appeals.

I’m happy with anything and would always go with an extra runner over an extra tall - but there is a difference between a 5-minute look at a fwd group with 6xmid/small players and doing it for an extended time in the event of injury/Naughton just getting plain old beaten.

I am just trying to point out that say what you will about Gowers, he does fly at the ball in the air and plays ‘tall’...we have not really replaced him with a tall and people on here get very snippy when we kick long into a fwd line where there are no marking players...and our selected side has basically guaranteed that will happen...and lower the eyes is fine, but pressure....

Again - I’m happy enough with the changes but still think we lack balance.

[boydogs]

Again - I’m happy enough with the changes but still think we lack balance.

I think Bont will play tall today

[Ghost Dog]

Few others mentioned it - tag is a good idea. Remove their captain and a couple of others, not much going with North.
But they will probably come out swinging today so expect some lowlights to hit their KPIs.
And would rather they came out swinging, because we need a good test.
Like to see Naughton moved down back, their defence lacks pace, let Lloyd and even JJ have a go down forward.

[Go_Dogs]

I worry about Bevo’s comments about it being a different game to past battles vs NM. We should be looking to take this game away from north by focussing pressure on their better players, not just roll the dice in head to heads. Officially worried right now.

He did speak about this.

The context for it being different is important too. They are taking more risky kicks through the corridor in transition. Seems like we've been planning for that. I'm very confident after watching the press conference and the side we've selected.

[westbulldog]

This is a watershed game for us, lose and be 4-6 we are gonski, if we can't beat this Norf rabble we deserve to be gonski. We have our best 22 for the year in today, lets smash them.

[azabob]

Again - I’m happy enough with the changes but still think we lack balance.

So I think its fair to say a lot of mjp fears came to light around team selection balance and if dropping Gowers, Hayes and co will actually make a difference.

[azabob]

Again - I’m happy enough with the changes but still think we lack balance.

So I think its fair to say a lot of mjp "watch outs" came to light around team selection balance and if dropping Gowers, Hayes and co will actually make a difference.

[G-Mo77]

So I think its fair to say a lot of mjp "watch outs" came to light around team selection balance and if dropping Gowers, Hayes and co will actually make a difference.

It was certainly noticeable. I changed my tip when I saw the team, it wasn't as catastrophic as the Carlton selections but it was noticebly unbalanced. That being said we seemed to leak the ball from stoppages far too easily so not sure if another bigger target up forward would have helped that much.

[The Pie Man]

Didn’t see Cordy rucking ...or us winning 4 clearances in a row and finding English on the lead in two of those phases.

Weird game - and of course mjp raised valid concerns, the forum’s worth being part of for his insight alone

[Ghost Dog]

This game is a non-negotiable win and to me leaving it up to our mids - who didn't bring effort against a lesser midfield in Carlton - has disaster written all over it.

Well this, unfortunately, turned out to be spot on.

[Ghost Dog]

4 good changes. Bevos been reading woof.
Sadly missed the one by MJP that said it wouldn't make a dif.