Shouldn't the Dogs be angrier with themselves?

[angelopetraglia]

Interesting piece from Rohan Connolly https://footyology.com.au/shouldnt-the-dogs-be-angrier-with-themselves/

SHOULDN’T THE DOGS BE ANGRIER WITH THEMSELVES?

Rarely does a week of an AFL season go by now without at least one if not more clubs and coaches being put under the microscope, sometimes after just one bad loss, let alone several.

This week, there’s multiple candidates. Melbourne, for instance, a preliminary finalist of last year, currently a miserable 1-4, second last on the ladder, and facing Richmond on Wednesday night after a four-day turnaround.

Similarly, much better was expected from North Melbourne this season after a promising 2018 and an off-season recruiting spree landed a clutch of established senior players. Instead, the Roos are last, also 1-4, with frustrated fans turning on coach Brad Scott.

One club, though, seems to be avoiding much blowback, even from its own, after a particularly ignominious defeat at the weekend. And perhaps that in itself is actually part of its problem.

Nothing will alter the iconic status of the Western Bulldogs’ 2016 premiership win, breaking a drought of 62 years, and won in the unlikeliest of circumstances, from seventh spot on the ladder (creating history) and after four successive cut-throat finals wins, two of them on the road.

But you can’t help but think this is also a club which should be a lot dirtier with itself about what’s followed that historic victory. Which, to be frank, is plenty of the sort of mediocrity it appeared to have shrugged off once and for all in September less than three years ago.

The Bulldogs’ loss to Carlton, a team which had won just three of its previous 36 games, was a stinker. By a margin of 44 points, and with the Dogs by the end seemingly unable to hit the side of the barn such was the scale of their kicking yips with 7.15.

That was a third loss in a row, and a second straight home loss after having gone down to everyone’s wooden spoon favourite Gold Coast in round three.

That makes it just 21 wins from 49 games since that glorious grand final win over Sydney, the Bulldogs last year becoming only the second team in the past 40 years to miss the finals two seasons in a row after winning a premiership.

It’s been a remarkable downturn, yet one which hasn’t attracted anything like the sort of forensic analysis you would expect were the club concerned, say, Collingwood, Hawthorn or Geelong.

Why is that the case? Well, at the risk of incurring the wrath of the Bulldog faithful, it’s hard not to conclude it’s because an entire club, however sub-consciously, is still pretty sated by that 2016 triumph. Because other possible explanations simply don’t stack up.

Doggies fans (understandably) bristle when it’s suggested they got lucky with the 2016 flag. The first year of the pre-finals bye did enable them to regain a clutch of key players who’d been out injured for their first knock-out final in Perth.

This, however, was also a side good enough to have won 15 home and away games, the most ever by a team finishing that low on the ladder. It was also a list which had to endure an at-times shocking run with injuries that season yet still managed to prevail.

No premiership team should ever have to re-state its credentials. But you can’t have it both ways. If 2016 was built on a lot more than one outstanding month of football, where has it been since? And if injuries haven’t been kind over the past couple of years (and they haven’t) why wasn’t that enough to stop Luke Beveridge’s men then?

The demise certainly hasn’t had anything to do with age. Bob Murphy, Matthew Boyd and now Liam Picken may not be around anymore, but a lot of others involved still are.

The Dogs’ flag team was one of the youngest of the game’s modern era. There’s still 14 of the premiership 22 on the list, and exactly half of the senior and rookie list of 44 from 2016 remain at the club. In terms of games’ experience, the 2019 list is ranked mid-table in the AFL.

There’s been some list decisions since 2016 worthy of scrutiny. The recruitment of Travis Cloke, for one. The trading out of an All-Australian Jake Stringer, currently playing excellent football for Essendon. The trading in of Josh Schache for two draft picks and restricted free agent Jackson Trengove on a three-year deal, neither of whom played last Sunday.

Some off-field talent has been lost, too, the club’s list and recruiting managers from the premiership year, Jason McCartney and Simon Dalrymple, both having departed at the beginning of last year for GWS and Sydney respectively. But it’s not like, either in the offices, or on the field, there’s been a complete changing of the guard.

Beveridge has alluded several times since the premiership to players not having handled the heights of their win well. It’s more than just supposition. How many who were part of the flag are better players, if at all, now than they were then?

As for raw numbers, well, scoring, an issue even in 2016, is still a major achilles heel. But a tell-tale sign is contested ball, a great measure of hunger. The Dogs were a clear No.1 on the differentials in 2016. That ranking slipped to eighth in 2017, then 16th last year. They’re currently mid-table again, but still a long way from their standards of three years ago.

On Sunday, the Bulldogs just pipped Carlton for contested ball, but were smashed 26-42 at the clearances, having gone into the game ranked No.1 in that category and the Blues a lowly 14th.

Any momentum built on two good wins to start this season against Sydney and Hawthorn has been well and truly extinguished by what’s come since, particularly losses to two opponents almost universally tipped pre-season to fill the bottom two spots on this year’s ladder.

Saturday night in Perth against Fremantle will be the Western Bulldogs’ 50th game since the famous grand final win. How many performances among that half-century have even remotely approached the sort of levels they reached in September 2016? Four, maybe five?

Safe to say not many. Which is fine if history does indeed judge the 2016 flag as a glorious but fleeting moment in the club’s history. But having broken the drought, shouldn’t the Bulldogs have aspired to more? And if they have, shouldn’t a whole club be a lot angrier than it seems to be about the ensuing mediocrity?

[bulldogtragic]

Didn't he read woof Sunday night?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I'd like to know what domain Connolly has sought out to gauge the level of supporter anger and frustration.
I mean Sunday was very heated here, and the other forum resembled a dumpster fire.

[bornadog]

he read woof Sunday night?

Corrected for accuracy

[angelopetraglia]

"On Sunday, the Bulldogs just pipped Carlton for contested ball, but were smashed 26-42 at the clearances, having gone into the game ranked No.1 in that category and the Blues a lowly 14th."

I know this was discussed on the game thread, but this really does stand out. I did believe we were at risk of losing from not taking our chances but was so confident that we would win the clearances and midfield battle. That we were so severely beaten in this area of the game and that we made the decisions to give Libba and Macrae more forward time and give midfield time to Gowers and Williams is difficult to comprehend (and Bevo did try and explain it in the presser).

[bornadog]

"On Sunday, the Bulldogs just pipped Carlton for contested ball, but were smashed 26-42 at the clearances, having gone into the game ranked No.1 in that category and the Blues a lowly 14th."

I know this was discussed on the game thread, but this really does stand out. I did believe we were at risk of losing from not taking our chances but was so confident that we would win the clearances and midfield battle. That we were so severely beaten in this area of the game and that we made the decisions to give Libba and Macrae more forward time and give midfield time to Gowers and Williams is difficult to comprehend (and Bevo did try and explain it in the presser).

This was a big error made by the coaches and cost us the game.

[bulldogtragic]

Corrected for accuracy

Sorry, you've lost me. He finishes saying we should've (fans as well as club) been angrier Sunday night. I'd guess and say most fans were pretty angry to some degree. I mean what's he want, riots in the streets to make it clear we've had a gut full of a lot of things like goal kicking, etc, etc. I don't get where he's coming from.

[Ozza]

"On Sunday, the Bulldogs just pipped Carlton for contested ball, but were smashed 26-42 at the clearances, having gone into the game ranked No.1 in that category and the Blues a lowly 14th."

I know this was discussed on the game thread, but this really does stand out. I did believe we were at risk of losing from not taking our chances but was so confident that we would win the clearances and midfield battle. That we were so severely beaten in this area of the game and that we made the decisions to give Libba and Macrae more forward time and give midfield time to Gowers and Williams is difficult to comprehend (and Bevo did try and explain it in the presser).

I watched the presser last night. It was absolutely pathetic.

He may as well have said "We have no respect for Carlton so we debuted two players AND decided to trial a few flankers in the middle for when we need them there in the future. And Cripps and SPS had 25 at half time, but we were only a few goals down, so we thought it wasn't that big an issue, and if we keep doing what we are trying to do, we'll get back into the game".

[Greystache]

I watched the presser last night. It was absolutely pathetic.

He may as well have said "We have no respect for Carlton so we debuted two players AND decided to trial a few flankers in the middle for when we need them there in the future. And Cripps and SPS had 25 at half time, but we were only a few goals down, so we thought it wasn't that big an issue, and if we keep doing what we are trying to do, we'll get back into the game".

I watched it too. Pathetic is exactly the word I would use. My take away was he was saying "yeah we lost but we're a better team than them so it doesn't matter".

Luke may not have any connection with reality any more, but there's every chance we'll finish in the same grouping as Carlton, so if we're better than then it's by fine margins. Certainly not something to post yourself on the back over.

[Sedat]

A premiership buys you an awful lot of goodwill but Bevo is churning through the goodwill much quicker than expected. His first 2 years were outstanding in just about every aspect, but he has barely put a foot right since then. He's not terminal but the next 2 months are absolutely critical to his future at the kennel IMO. If we curl our toes in that time I reckon this will be his last season as our coach.

The time to shake up the coaching panel was this pre-season, not next year. By keeping the same coaches together (for the 4th year now), Bevo is backing himself in to improve the on-field results in 2019, and I reckon Bains/Gordon have been overly generous in giving him so much rope.

[kruder]

A premiership buys you an awful lot of goodwill but Bevo is churning through the goodwill much quicker than expected. His first 2 years were outstanding in just about every aspect, but he has barely put a foot right since then. He's not terminal but the next 2 months are absolutely critical to his future at the kennel IMO. If we curl our toes in that time I reckon this will be his last season as our coach.

The time to shake up the coaching panel was this pre-season, not next year. By keeping the same coaches together (for the 4th year now), Bevo is backing himself in to improve the on-field results in 2019, and I reckon Bains/Gordon have been overly generous in giving him so much rope.

100%

Make no mistake, no company in the world would have had 2 years like we have had without major change. All we can presume is that they thought it was Stringers, Dahlhaus, Rougheads and injures at fault. If Clarko can be tamed Bevo can be.

GVGjr was warning us going into 2017 about a lot of this and we are in 2019 and are club continues to make the same mistakes its unbelievable. Id keep Bevo for sure but changes have to be made and if he doesn't like it then he can go coach somewhere else.

[Remi Moses]

Sorry, you've lost me. He finishes saying we should've (fans as well as club) been angrier Sunday night. I'd guess and say most fans were pretty angry to some degree. I mean what's he want, riots in the streets to make it clear we've had a gut full of a lot of things like goal kicking, etc, etc. I don't get where he's coming from.

I had a bit of a two and fro on Twitter with him .I find it ironic the media want our club to get over the 16 flag , yet they continually reference it . I’m not sure what he wants ? Pitch fork and torch on the Whitten Oval . Pretty heated on forums Sunday night

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

A premiership buys you an awful lot of goodwill but Bevo is churning through the goodwill much quicker than expected. His first 2 years were outstanding in just about every aspect, but he has barely put a foot right since then. He's not terminal but the next 2 months are absolutely critical to his future at the kennel IMO. If we curl our toes in that time I reckon this will be his last season as our coach.

The time to shake up the coaching panel was this pre-season, not next year. By keeping the same coaches together (for the 4th year now), Bevo is backing himself in to improve the on-field results in 2019, and I reckon Bains/Gordon have been overly generous in giving him so much rope.

Agree with all your comments but would like to add that Chris Grant as Head of Football needs to step up to the plate and demand more of the Coaches and players. We are facing 3 years in the doldrums after winning a Premiership which is unacceptable.I also question the quality of our list. Too many of our smaller brigade lack kicking skills and our two best big men in English and Naughton are relatively inexperienced.

[LostDoggy]

I think the point of the article is the complacency of club officials to not address issues we all are aware of through coaching, strategy and drafting.

[MrMahatma]

I agree we’ve not had the blow torch we deserve. Let’s face it, we’ve shown little more than glimpses of good footy in over 2 seasons! We can’t keep at it.

It’s pretty soul destroying.

There’s probably a load of reasons. List, coaches, mindset... but I welcome the media getting stuck in.

[WBFC4FFC]

I think the point of the article is the complacency of club officials to not address issues we all are aware of through coaching, strategy and drafting.

Bevo is the type that is not afraid to try things and make mistakes. He did that to win a flag, so he ain’t gonna Change. We are all peeved because last week he tried too much in one game and hence not giving the team the best chance to win. (I did find it interesting on the video of Young and Hayes being told they were making their debut that Bevo said everything they are presently trying is to make sure that when they make finals again they will win them)!

Given all the players that have been signed-up on long-term Contracts, he has not lost the players.

The club under Gordon appears to back coaches over the long-term, believing instability to have harmed this club for too long They are right but remember, it was Cyclops leaving the Bullies for GWS that eventually bought McCartney’s downfall, so they have to be prepared to pull the trigger when that comes. With that being said, I too have been thinking that the Assistants are getting a bit too comfy at the Club. No need for wholesale changes but one or two new ones would be worthwhile: one experienced coach and a rookie.

[Hotdog60]

I wonder how Hodge would go?
Has he got another year in him or do we give him a try.

[Jeanette54]

I wonder how Hodge would go?
Has he got another year in him or do we give him a try.

At least he would be cheap. What with his age pension and all

[macca]

Im not angry just tired of seeing the glaring problems I see week in week out
Question need to be asked :

1. Why has our goal kicking not being addressed ?
2. From observation , our fitness does not seem to be as high as where it was in 2015-16 season . We were able to overrun teams . How much has cordy departure impacted ?
3. What impact is rotating / losing the coaching staff have an impacted our players continuity ?
Gotch was an amazing game coach from what he had achieved and developed in VFl. Hansen inherited a good setup to win the GF vfl flag in 2016 . why they hell we did not keep gotch?

4. Do we have too many average players without any xfactor?
5. Demanding multiple positions , is that confusing the players or stifling their ability just to be good at the one position ? Interesting bucks does Not demand multiple positions and has specific roles. cox is not being shredded each week in the ruck . Hudson played important 2 Seasons so that Grundy could develop. Maybe we just kept Campbell for too Long ??? Roughead is just playing back.

I watched the post conference and Bevo looked like he had run out of ideas . An analogy came to mind , you prepare for the exam for a term and then when come for the test you realise your under prepared , studied for the wrong thing or just donT have any answers for the day time questions (tactics ) which are thrown at you because your brain(players) are not agile or trained to respond quickly enough . Not trying to be critical or smug , but I was very concerned with his response.

Maybe he needs a BAD cop type of coach who can be the disciplinarian , who calls a spade a spade? Interesting that Bucks has mellowed more with the right assistants around him .

What to do ? As they would say in Nepali .

I donÂ’t have any ideas either but I will continue to rant and rumble as I am forever footy tragic .

[bornadog]

I questioned Rocco on this article on why he didn't do some investigative reporting to find reasons, instead of just reporting what we know. He claimed he was only allowed to write so many words. To me it is a cop out and lazy journalism.

If you are going to write these articles, then delve deeper and tell us what has been happening.

[jeemak]

I actually thought Bevo was OK then. Having said that, I'm watching it well and truly after the blood has cooled.

RoCo is the master of writing articles to generate discussion and hits now, because that's what his freelance career and business model is incentivised by. He doesn't want to give answers, what he wants to do is generate clicks and discussion so links can be followed and advertisements can be consumed. He's still a good writer, but the substance of his writing markedly deteriorated in his last while at The Age as it moved to an online bias, and it's gotten worse since.

I actually thought Bevo looked the most livid he has ever looked and did all he could by not throwing players and the entire organisation under the bus. To MJP's point players play where they are told to, and in context if Bevo had have said "we tried the things we tried but our players were completely piss weak, and we as a coaching group screwed up" he'd have been murdered retrospectively (which he has been by us).

Do we really want that immediately after a game when tension is high? He answered every question and didn't resort to some of the churlish and childish responses more recent and previous premiership coaches have. I won't commend him for that because it's just a basic part of his job, but I won't whip him for only telling half the story of what happened on the night.

[azabob]

I questioned Rocco on this article on why he didn't do some investigative reporting to find reasons, instead of just reporting what we know. He claimed he was only allowed to write so many words. To me it is a cop out and lazy journalism.

If you are going to write these articles, then delve deeper and tell us what has been happening.

So many words? Ah, it’s his platform he can write as many as he wants!

[mjp]

1. Why has our goal kicking not being addressed ?

Well. What we know is it hasn't improved. We don't know what they are addressing. Whatever they are doing hasn't been successful, but I just think all of us saying 'it isn't being worked on' MIGHT be unfair...who knows, maybe we are on the worlds biggest "J" curve! :-)


2. From observation , our fitness does not seem to be as high as where it was in 2015-16 season . We were able to overrun teams . How much has cordy departure impacted ?
The counter from me. You look fitter when you hit targets and take intercept marks. We have dropped away incredibly with our handball skills AND our ability to intercept/create turnovers...

If we could start doing those things, we wouldn't be spending so much time chasing opposition butts and would look like we are running on top of the ground.

Is there a difference in S+C staff/teams? Of course their is, but I don't think this is a massive factor.



3. What impact is rotating / losing the coaching staff have an impacted our players continuity ?
Gotch was an amazing game coach from what he had achieved and developed in VFl. Hansen inherited a good setup to win the GF vfl flag in 2016 . why they hell we did not keep gotch?

Is winning VFL flags important? It is fun, but it isn't really important and too much focus on winning at that level can detract from player development for the senior side.


4. Do we have too many average players without any xfactor?

I would almost say the opposite. Right now we could do with a little more steak and a little less sizzle.


5. Demanding multiple positions , is that confusing the players or stifling their ability just to be good at the one position ? Interesting bucks does Not demand multiple positions and has specific roles. cox is not being shredded each week in the ruck . Hudson played important 2 Seasons so that Grundy could develop. Maybe we just kept Campbell for too Long ??? Roughead is just playing back.



How do you get inside a players head? For me, if I was battling as a forward I would like another 'string' that kept me in the game vs sent me to the bench/vfl. Is this over-emphasised at our club? Well, it seems to be from the outside, but how are we really to know?

[1eyedog]

From observation , our fitness does not seem to be as high as where it was in 2015-16 season . We were able to overrun teams

I agree and I think it is directly related to our goal kicking woes. Kicking under fatigue to me would be the hardest part of set sets.


I would almost say the opposite. Right now we could do with a little more steak and a little less sizzle

I wouldn't. Stringer has been lighting it up this year. I'm still dirty he's not with us. Every goal he kicks is another dagger through my heart. He nearly won the game for them yesterday he was sensational. I'll take Stringer for Lloyd thanks. Happy to also pass on one of Dunkley or Wallis or any other steaks in the team for some outside run with kicking penetration. Collingwood's Maynard would be nice.

If you're simply inferring existing players play within their limitations I completely agree.

[bornadog]

I wouldn't. Stringer has been lighting it up this year. I'm still dirty he's not with us.

I am surprised by this comment, knowing what you know about his personal side and what a shit bloke he was in 2016 to 2017 with us.

In 6 games has kicked 11 goals, hardly a world beater. How many times again yesterday was he sitting at the back of the pack waiting for cheapies, and not wanting to get his body bruised.

Good average player at best.

[The Adelaide Connection]

I am surprised by this comment, knowing what you know about his personal side and what a shit bloke he was in 2016 to 2017 with us.

In 6 games has kicked 11 goals, hardly a world beater. How many times again yesterday was he sitting at the back of the pack waiting for cheapies, and not wanting to get his body bruised.

Good average player at best.

I would argue that he could be in the elite bracket and that we even saw that for most of 2015. I’d agree his output is good-average at best.

Imagine Stringer if he was a great bloke and elite competitor in the Daniel Cross mould! Unfortunately, he seems more like Fevola- could be best on ground or could be overweight and playing amateurs in his prime.

[mjp]

If you're simply inferring existing players play within their limitations I completely agree.

1/. I love Stringer.

2/. Yeah - this is what I mean. I just feel we have too many trying to do 'fancy' stuff when it isn't needed...stop kicking around corners, trying to take one-handers, trying to spot-up one player in the midst of 3x oppo players...ALL of that looks amazing when it works, but not all 22 should have a license to try it.

If some of our developing players had a look at the development of Liam Picken's career they would be well served by trying to emulate it...start with the steak. Get established. Add the 'special sauce' later (MUCH later). Williams is a good example at the moment...it doesn't matter how talented he is, 9 touches (4 in 3-quarters) is not going to cut it. Become a consistent 20per game player - your talent will shine. Dont guess with your running patterns NOW. Get a good starting point vs your opponent and build from there...

[Twodogs]

I am surprised by this comment, knowing what you know about his personal side and what a shit bloke he was in 2016 to 2017 with us.

In 6 games has kicked 11 goals, hardly a world beater. How many times again yesterday was he sitting at the back of the pack waiting for cheapies, and not wanting to get his body bruised.

Good average player at best.


Actually he is a good average player at worst. At best he is in elite Garry Ablett Senior territory.

[1eyedog]

I am surprised by this comment, knowing what you know about his personal side and what a shit bloke he was in 2016 to 2017 with us.

In 6 games has kicked 11 goals, hardly a world beater. How many times again yesterday was he sitting at the back of the pack waiting for cheapies, and not wanting to get his body bruised.

Good average player at best.

Shit bloke amazing footballer who I thought would be with us forever. Selfish and Self centred but can he play. Is better than anyone on our list except Bont, perhaps Daniel. Eventually Naughton, maybe. Wanted to be with us forever but we pulled the pin. He was making some questionable life choices no doubt but there's heaps of shit blokes on AFL lists. The struggle between maintaing culture and getting players in that can win you Premierships is real. Stringer was within a bees dick of winning it for them yesterday.

[Twodogs]

Shit bloke amazing footballer who I thought would be with us forever. Selfish and Self centred but can he play. Is better than anyone on our list except Bont, perhaps Daniel. Eventually Naughton, maybe. Wanted to be with us forever but we pulled the pin. He was making some questionable life choices no doubt but there's heaps of shit blokes on AFL lists. The struggle between maintaing culture and getting players in that can win you Premierships is real. Stringer was within a bees dick of winning it for them yesterday.

Like my dear old mum often says "We just can't have nice things"

[Sedat]

I wouldn't. Stringer has been lighting it up this year. I'm still dirty he's not with us. Every goal he kicks is another dagger through my heart. He nearly won the game for them yesterday he was sensational.
Yesterday Stringer was as he has been his entire career, save for a consistent purple patch from late 2014 to late 2015 - occasional bursts of brilliance interspersed with half-arsed efforts and large parts unsighted. His goal in the last qtr of the 2016 GF could only be done by about 4-5 players in the entire comp, but he was missing for most of the rest of the match. Ditto yesterday - a couple of monster clutch goals and brilliant gathers mixed with some of the most insipid one-armed efforts in marking contests.

That's Jakey's lot at AFL level. He will frustrate for large parts but then produce something sublime that can win a flag.

[Twodogs]

Yesterday Stringer was as he has been his entire career, save for a consistent purple patch from late 2014 to late 2015 - occasional bursts of brilliance interspersed with half-arsed efforts and large parts unsighted. His goal in the last qtr of the 2016 GF could only be done by about 4-5 players in the entire comp, but he was missing for most of the rest of the match. Ditto yesterday - a couple of monster clutch goals and brilliant gathers mixed with some of the most insipid one-armed efforts in marking contests.

That's Jakey's lot at AFL level. He will frustrate for large parts but then produce something sublime that can win a flag.

Not many would have spotted up Dickson the way he did in the prelim the week before either. Most other bulldog players in history would have blasted away at goals and probably turned the ball over with 35 seconds left on the clock and we know how our luck usually holds in situations like that.

[FrediKanoute]

Yesterday Stringer was as he has been his entire career, save for a consistent purple patch from late 2014 to late 2015 - occasional bursts of brilliance interspersed with half-arsed efforts and large parts unsighted. His goal in the last qtr of the 2016 GF could only be done by about 4-5 players in the entire comp, but he was missing for most of the rest of the match. Ditto yesterday - a couple of monster clutch goals and brilliant gathers mixed with some of the most insipid one-armed efforts in marking contests.

That's Jakey's lot at AFL level. He will frustrate for large parts but then produce something sublime that can win a flag.

There were also the 3 goals in the v Hawthorn in the 2nd Semi.

[Greystache]

Shit bloke amazing footballer who I thought would be with us forever. Selfish and Self centred but can he play. Is better than anyone on our list except Bont, perhaps Daniel. Eventually Naughton, maybe. Wanted to be with us forever but we pulled the pin. He was making some questionable life choices no doubt but there's heaps of shit blokes on AFL lists. The struggle between maintaing culture and getting players in that can win you Premierships is real. Stringer was within a bees dick of winning it for them yesterday.

I can't agree with your assessment of Stringer at all. The one thing he's done consistently in his AFL career is play poorly against good teams. It's the only consistent he's ever produced. He's played 5 finals in his career for a total of 1 good quarter (against Hawthorn) and a couple of good moments. He also consistently battled whenever we played a top team, the best we could hope for was a couple of good moments and his opponent not to slaughter us.

He's a downhill skier who needs the play going his way for him to contribute. He's too lazy and unfit to do the hard things, and he doesn't have the will or courage to do the a tough things.

[1eyedog]

I can't agree with your assessment of Stringer at all. The one thing he's done consistently in his AFL career is play poorly against good teams. It's the only consistent he's ever produced. He's played 5 finals in his career for a total of 1 good quarter (against Hawthorn) and a couple of good moments. He also consistently battled whenever we played a top team, the best we could hope for was a couple of good moments and his opponent not to slaughter us.

He's a downhill skier who needs the play going his way for him to contribute. He's too lazy and unfit to do the hard things, and he doesn't have the will or courage to do the a tough things.

That's fine and fair enough. I'd argue he did more good things than people think and I really just refer to clutch goals in the 2015 EF and 2016 finals series and his dynamic playing ability. He's been playing well this year but I get the harsh assessment.

[bornadog]

That's fine and fair enough. I'd argue he did more good things than people think and I really just refer to clutch goals in the 2015 EF and 2016 finals series and his dynamic playing ability. He's been playing well this year but I get the harsh assessment.

Since mid 2016, he has been an ordinary player. Does the occasional freakish thing, but they are rare these days, because as Grey said he is lazy and does not have the intensity as someone like a De Goey.

[LostDoggy]

Its all very well to to bag or not bag Stringer but even as half assed as he is, he probably just maybe has Gowers covered by the length of the Flemington Straight.

The bigger picture is that post 16 we have done opposite of what a good, young and successful club would've done and had a nett loss of talent.

Why has our injury and man management been so poor that we couldnt get the best out of and lost talent like Adams, Dahlhaus and Stringer? Meanwhile we cant attract anyone of note and not even anyone best 22 (Crozier excepted) at their former club. No we brought in a clearly cooked Cloke, duryea another back flanker that we didnt need, and lloyd who is aging and was always slow. Then there is Schache who has already been dropped for what we all suspect are effort reasons. You cant teach hunger. But we wiĺ all keep our fingers crossed...

But we do recruit Trengove.who seems.awfully similar to Roughhead in a role and looks. JT doesnt get picked till rd 6 while Rough plays solidly in a top 4 team...

We should have capitalised but instead pissed it away by not being good enough to manage and keep our 'different' players engaged and motivated.

Buddy and G Ablett aside, how many good young players did the Hawks and the Cats lose (young players that they didn't want to lose or couldnt manage) after their breakthrough flags?

In Hamling, Dahl, Adams and Stringer we have lost four very good youngish players since 16. Plus Rough. Plus Boyd who we cant get on the park or seem to motivate. Not to mention Dalrymple, one of the best recruiters ever seen at our 'club who we also couldnt retain.

Very annoying club since 16. Very.

[westdog54]

Its one thing to gloss over the fact that Stringer is a 'shit bloke', which he is.

But lets look beyond Stringer as an individual and look at his overall impact at the club.

If his presence was having a negative impact on other players and attempts to address this have failed then you've got to make an assessment as to the value of keeping him versus the benefit of moving him on.

He's had some good games this year, however,

a) I'm not sure he'd have made much difference to our fortunes in the games we've lost this year
b) If he was a disruptive influence then I'm comfortable with him being moved on.

He was a ticking time bomb who seemed to have little to no interest in putting things right off field.

[Topdog]

Its all very well to to bag or not bag Stringer but even as half assed as he is, he probably just maybe has Gowers covered by the length of the Flemington Straight.

And yet they have about the same impact on games for their respective clubs.




Why has our injury and man management been so poor that we couldnt get the best out of and lost talent like Adams, Dahlhaus and Stringer?

Adams going for more surgery right? Dahl is an interesting case but I dont believe he has ever been or ever will be an A grader.


Meanwhile we cant attract anyone of note and not even anyone best 22 (Crozier excepted) at their former club. No we brought in a clearly cooked Cloke, duryea another back flanker that we didnt need, and lloyd who is aging and was always slow.
Ive been perplexed by many of these decisions


Then there is Schache who has already been dropped for what we all suspect are effort reasons. You cant teach hunger. But we wiĺ all keep our fingers crossed...

If that is actually the reason he was dropped i am expecting wholesale changes this week.....


Very annoying club since 16. Very.

Yep unfortunately firmly agree

[Remi Moses]

Hard to get the best out of Adams when he’s in a hospital ward awaiting his upteenth surgery .
Agree with a few others on Jake , he will infuriate with his inconsistency and go missing in big games .
But his sublime moments will happen more than Billy Gowers has his .

[Remi Moses]

Its all very well to to bag or not bag Stringer but even as half assed as he is, he probably just maybe has Gowers covered by the length of the Flemington Straight.

The bigger picture is that post 16 we have done opposite of what a good, young and successful club would've done and had a nett loss of talent.

Why has our injury and man management been so poor that we couldnt get the best out of and lost talent like Adams, Dahlhaus and Stringer? Meanwhile we cant attract anyone of note and not even anyone best 22 (Crozier excepted) at their former club. No we brought in a clearly cooked Cloke, duryea another back flanker that we didnt need, and lloyd who is aging and was always slow. Then there is Schache who has already been dropped for what we all suspect are effort reasons. You cant teach hunger. But we wiĺ all keep our fingers crossed...

But we do recruit Trengove.who seems.awfully similar to Roughhead in a role and looks. JT doesnt get picked till rd 6 while Rough plays solidly in a top 4 team...

We should have capitalised but instead pissed it away by not being good enough to manage and keep our 'different' players engaged and motivated.

Buddy and G Ablett aside, how many good young players did the Hawks and the Cats lose (young players that they didn't want to lose or couldnt manage) after their breakthrough flags?

In Hamling, Dahl, Adams and Stringer we have lost four very good youngish players since 16. Plus Rough. Plus Boyd who we cant get on the park or seem to motivate. Not to mention Dalrymple, one of the best recruiters ever seen at our 'club who we also couldnt retain.

Very annoying club since 16. Very.

Joel Hamling , Josh Kennedy off hand . Sydney have also been a great club ,lost last years Brownlow medalist .
I tend to look at the performances of the ones we lost with our club, and to be honest they’d been ordinary for two seasons.
Definitely shitted off on how we’ve recruited from other clubs ( bar Crozier) though

[Remi Moses]

Its one thing to gloss over the fact that Stringer is a 'shit bloke', which he is.

But lets look beyond Stringer as an individual and look at his overall impact at the club.

If his presence was having a negative impact on other players and attempts to address this have failed then you've got to make an assessment as to the value of keeping him versus the benefit of moving him on.

He's had some good games this year, however,

a) I'm not sure he'd have made much difference to our fortunes in the games we've lost this year
b) If he was a disruptive influence then I'm comfortable with him being moved on.

He was a ticking time bomb who seemed to have little to no interest in putting things right off field.


Well said

[LostDoggy]

Joel Hamling , Josh Kennedy off hand . Sydney have also been a great club ,lost last years Brownlow medalist .
I tend to look at the performances of the ones we lost with our club, and to be honest they’d been ordinary for two seasons.
Definitely shitted off on how we’ve recruited from other clubs ( bar Crozier) though

That is ny point though. Its not that they were moved on.

Why were they shit for the two previous seasons? Why havent we been able to manage these players to get.the best out of them? If it was just one or two players blame the individual but at some point you need.to look at.the system. You add Libba to that as well as he may as well have not played in 17 as he was totally unmotivated.

Too many players havent played at their best for far too long.

We see it repeating now with Dunkley. Everyone can see he is shot fwd and played some good footy last yr in the guts. But Bev knows better and plays him fwd and ruck. It must be incredibly frustrating for Dunks.

I love Bev for what he did but since 16 he has dropped for the ball with player management.

Bev is simply NOT getting the best out of players, seeing some leave and way too many others plateau or go backwards (look at Bonts goal kicking).

[Remi Moses]

Fair points, but not sure Bonts goalkicking can be put on the coach

[Mofra]

Am I the only person on the planet that was happy to pick up Duryea?
Instant upgrade on Roarke and he cost us little.

Lloyd fills a need - he's not the answer but at least he's a natural forward.

Trengove should have been playing already and was probably our best ruck last year, as a FA signing he's exactly the type we should look at. A freebie.

I was one of the first on the Crozier bandwagon, no more commentary needed.

We manage to hold our first rounders every year too (although I suspect we trade away our 2020 first rounder, not needed with McPherson/Ugle-Hagen). This draft looks flush for mid/forwards which will help us but I'd still like support in the front half and a genuine swingman (Gardner as a mid-year draft option may suit us).

[G-Mo77]

Am I the only person on the planet that was happy to pick up Duryea?
Instant upgrade on Roarke and he cost us little.

I think he's surplus on what we already have, cost us virtually nothing though so it's not all doom and gloom. When we first picked him I wasn't pleased and even now I would have rather just left him for another team.


Lloyd fills a need - he's not the answer but at least he's a natural forward.

I was happy with getting Lloyd. Knows how to kick a goal and with Dixon that makes 2 on the list.


Trengove should have been playing already and was probably our best ruck last year, as a FA signing he's exactly the type we should look at. A freebie.

Should be playing and I was happy with getting him.


I was one of the first on the Crozier bandwagon, no more commentary needed.

Took me a while to warm up but reasonably pleased with it now. Pick 40 is all we gave up for him so again not one that broke the bank.

Only thing I'd argue Mof is that none of these guys are in the upper end of our best 22. While they didn't cost a lot they're all taking up list spots on multi year contracts and restricts what we can bring in next season or the season after. Hopefully they become the measuring stick for those in the VFL and they're pushed out but I sadly I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[1eyedog]

I'd argue that Crozier has been in our top 5 players this year would be right up there in the B&F and is an automatic selection of fit.

[GVGjr]

Its one thing to gloss over the fact that Stringer is a 'shit bloke', which he is.

But lets look beyond Stringer as an individual and look at his overall impact at the club.

If his presence was having a negative impact on other players and attempts to address this have failed then you've got to make an assessment as to the value of keeping him versus the benefit of moving him on.

He's had some good games this year, however,

a) I'm not sure he'd have made much difference to our fortunes in the games we've lost this year
b) If he was a disruptive influence then I'm comfortable with him being moved on.

He was a ticking time bomb who seemed to have little to no interest in putting things right off field.

All valid points, While I don't agree with the way Bevo played the issue out in the media which I think had an impact on other clubs interest in him I don't believe we had many other options other than either stick with him because of his contract or take a reasonable trade offer. A few good games here or there doesn't change that he was a bad influence at the club.

[Ghost Dog]

Sorry, you've lost me. He finishes saying we should've (fans as well as club) been angrier Sunday night. I'd guess and say most fans were pretty angry to some degree. I mean what's he want, riots in the streets to make it clear we've had a gut full of a lot of things like goal kicking, etc, etc. I don't get where he's coming from.

I was just so down about the Trengrove omission. Posted about it on the Facebook group too.
It seemed like the perfect game to play him in.
Maybe we should start a Getup campaign to improve our kicking....

[bornadog]

Of the players that have left in the last two years, the only player I can see that would fit back into our side and I would have back is Hamling. I love Roughead, but he is very slow and playing in a role that suits Collingwood and the players that are around him. Third man up masked how bad he was in the ruck.

Hamling is the big loss, and at the time he said his father was sick and he wanted to be back with family.

Of the players that have come in, Suckling and Crozier have been excellent, I think Duryea is playing well, but I am a little disappointed we picked up Lloyd.

I can see what the MC was doing, and ie to inject some experience into the team until the younger guys develop more. As for Trengove, well we are screaming out for a ruckman and he brings some experience to the role.

Lloyd was brought in to kick goals as we all know we are deficient in this area, so what is the big deal.

Glad to see the back of Stringer and Dahl who were ungrateful shit stirrers around the club

[AndrewP6]

Of the players that have left in the last two years, the only player I can see that would fit back into our side and I would have back is Hamling. I love Roughead, but he is very slow and playing in a role that suits Collingwood and the players that are around him. Third man up masked how bad he was in the ruck.

Hamling is the big loss, and at the time he said his father was sick and he wanted to be back with family.

Of the players that have come in, Suckling and Crozier have been excellent, I think Duryea is playing well, but I am a little disappointed we picked up Lloyd.

I can see what the MC was doing, and ie to inject some experience into the team until the younger guys develop more. As for Trengove, well we are screaming out for a ruckman and he brings some experience to the role.

Lloyd was brought in to kick goals as we all know we are deficient in this area, so what is the big deal.

Glad to see the back of Stringer and Dahl who were ungrateful shit stirrers around the club

Lloyd leads our goal kicking, slotting 1.4 goals a game, so he is doing his job.

[Rocket Science]

Lloyd leads our goal kicking, slotting 1.4 goals a game, so he is doing his job.

He is??

No slight on the lad, he's contributing, but that perfectly underlines everything that's depressing about our forward competency.

[G-Mo77]

Glad to see the back of Stringer and Dahl who were ungrateful shit stirrers around the club

2 of the players who helped break a seemingly never ending premiership drought, sure they have there faults but I can never hold any animosity towards anyone from 2016. That was one of the happiest days of my life.

I'd still have Stringer back in a heart beat, I'd love someone in our team with that X Factor.

[MrMahatma]

Not sure why this is now a thread about Stringer?

For me, the lack of movement in the assistant coaches feels like a root cause for our current symptoms.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Personally still wish we had Stringer.

Has major flaws in his game and agree his form v top teams wasn’t great, but who else in our side can win a game by themselves like he can with either a burst or a miraculous moment? Nobody. Still only 25 or something too.

The likes of Lloyd and Gowers might be better blokes but they’re certainly not better footballers.

We’re a boring side minus Bont and Naughton.

[SonofScray]

I'm filthy. Spiralling into a malicious rage. Been trying so hard to temper things, I can see plenty of the rationale for why things have been the way they have since 2017. However, I am struggling to move past the feeling that Grant and Bevo have absolutely botched it. That the admins quick reversion to a quiet, ultra conservative approach has botched it. History has repeated itself.