The Three Top KPPs In Three Drafts - All Bulldogs

[bulldogtragic]

All three players were ranked, by draft selection, as the three best KPP/KPFs in their draft:

Pick 1. Tom Boyd
Pick 2. Josh Schache
Pick 9. Aaron Naughton

I mean, FMD, the little old Bulldogs land three gun KPPs. But it seems the players further up the ground aren't overly skilled and we are watching Boyd be turned into a ruckman/forward. Schache a forward/ruckman. Naughton a swingman without mastering either first.

I'll defend all three players until I'm blue in the face. And have done especially with Boyd. But after the initial burst for Naughton, he's gone stone cold as a forward too. A fate that Schache & Boyd have felt with poor delivery.

At Boyd, you can say maybe it's just the player. But add in Schache & Naughton, then that's three of the best KPFs of their draft year who are struggling at the club and the forward coaching and skills of theirs and their team mates. At some point we have to nuance the debate about these players and ask if a Hawthorn or Geelong had three exciting KPFs would they be doing the same as us? Be it match committee philosophy, head coach, forward coach, skills coach etc.

I mean if Boyd, Schache & Naughton can't make a prolonged impact as a KPF, then maybe no one can. Seriously, maybe no one can. Dropping Boyd & Schache for lack of rucking ability, or low output, or after 7 quarters of low output swinging Naughton back, doesn't to me seem to address that we have highly talented players who all can't seem to make the circumstances work. Yo-yo'ing them later in the year won't help either. I for one don't think it's the players complete fault that KPF in this side is one of the worst jobs in the league, not to mention they were very good set shots before spending too much time at the club.

This is now a trend, with the sample size of three top end KPP/KPFs. So what do we do? How do we turn this around? We have a lot of salary cap and a lot of contracted years in these very talented young men, and we will piss that and their potential away if we can't work out a scenario by which the selected 22 benefit from them achieving their very, very high potential. There's a lot of very strong cases for 'priority one'. But this is my nomination.

[Rocket Science]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[MrMahatma]

I'd suggest we have "system" coaches who can't actually coach talent.

The players that will thrive in our system are the less creative and the battlers who will see, to improve quickly but actually be capped out at average ability.

Until our coaches (all of them!) swallow their pride and accept they shouldn't stop instinct, we're stuffed.

[MrMahatma]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

The password is "inbevowetrust"

[comrade]

I'd suggest we have "system" coaches who can't actually coach talent.

The players that will thrive in our system are the less creative and the battlers who will see, to improve quickly but actually be capped out at average ability.

Until our coaches (all of them!) swallow their pride and accept they shouldn't stop instinct, we're stuffed.

The irony is that the massive improvement when Bevo took over was attributed to releasing our players and allowing them to play instinctual footy.

[GVGjr]

Good thread BT.

We should bring in Schache and play him regardless. Boyd should come back in when he has form and fitness.
I'm not against Naughton as a forward but we do miss him as a defender. He's a conundrum for the selectors

[GVGjr]

The irony is that the massive improvement when Bevo took over was attributed to releasing our players and allowing them to play instinctual footy.
Spot on, he got the defenders taking the game on and creating a lot of run and dash.

[whythelongface]

Just give them time.

Boyd has had issues both mental health and back issues. He will take time to come good. Hopefully he does. He needs to spend some time in the magoos. Is he struggling? Probably but not necessary in regards to the game. More health and personal issues. We know what he is capable of. Let’s hope he gets back to this one day. I still don’t believe he is an out and out FF. For mine at his best he plays better up the ground.

Schache has potential and I would like to see him back in the seniors. Can understand why he was dropped as he needs to find consistency. Still only 22 so has time. For mine probably the one that is struggling the most in terms of consistency. Something he needs to work on as well as becoming more physical. I do have hope for him that he does become the player we want him to be.

Naughton is a non issue. Has talent and can play both ends.Won’t and shouldn’t be dropped as if he doesn’t fire in the forward can drop back into defence, like this evening. He did this well and looked comfortable. He is a long term defensive option who can play forward when required. He is only 19. I don’t believe at all that Naughton is struggling. He is learning his craft and is playing well for a 2nd year player. He will continue to learn and get better.

What is the main issue? Poor delivery or that all three are struggling at this level? Or a combination of both?

[AndrewP6]

Schache is only 21.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Boyd showed nothing at GWS.
Schache little more at Lions- we were spooked into signing him. We had to throw a dart at the board come trade time given we'd just had to jettison Stringer for less than true market value.
Nothing about Schache in his time with the Lions suggested he was a top e e AFL talent. Why would Brisbane offload him so cheaply, having just re-signed him.
Naughton has already shown more grit than Schache. And barring one glorious game, he pretty much has Boyd's measure too.

[bulldogtragic]

Just give them time.

Boyd has had issues both mental health and back issues. He will take time to come good. Hopefully he does. He needs to spend some time in the magoos. Is he struggling? Probably but not necessary in regards to the game. More health and personal issues. We know what he is capable of. Let’s hope he gets back to this one day. I still don’t believe he is an out and out FF. For mine at his best he plays better up the ground.

Schache has potential and I would like to see him back in the seniors. Can understand why he was dropped as he needs to find consistency. Still only 22 so has time. For mine probably the one that is struggling the most in terms of consistency. Something he needs to work on as well as becoming more physical. I do have hope for him that he does become the player we want him to be.

Naughton is a non issue. Has talent and can play both ends.Won’t and shouldn’t be dropped as if he doesn’t fire in the forward can drop back into defence, like this evening. He did this well and looked comfortable. He is a long term defensive option who can play forward when required. He is only 19. I don’t believe at all that Naughton is struggling. He is learning his craft and is playing well for a 2nd year player. He will continue to learn and get better.

What is the main issue? Poor delivery or that all three are struggling at this level? Or a combination of both?

I'm not sure I can say with complete certainty their struggle is about their own form in and of itself. What I can say is that all three boys are very highly talented and I believe in all three implicitly. Also that we've almost immediately made them adopt a second role. Then there's an obvious lack of forward craft, presumably stemming from their forward coach. Poor delivery is a killer to young KPFs playing on the best defenders.

There was some good footage and commentary last night by Richo highlighting that missed kicks ND handballs with surging forward either forced the forwards to led to the boundary or completely burned them despite space. Boyd, Schache, Nughton, Franklin, Lockett or GAS would've been rendered useless. Boyd, Schache & Naughton get the 'on paper' advantage of having 60 forward 50 entries each week. But they're garbage entries for the most part.

On selection, we seem for the most part to only want to play one KPF. That means these kids re trying to develop at the level on the best defender each week. Then when we bomb it on their heads, predictably it gets spoiled. What else can these kids do?

To avoid any doubt, I'm backing all these young men in. What I question is how to unleash their potential, develop them successfully and whether anyone can actually be our KPF with success. Yo-yo'ing players in and out of the role doesn't seem to me to address to broader issue. The way we use the ball going forward, the high shallow entries, the long bombs, the best defenders and spares to kill contests, I don't think the causes and conditions currently exist for them to succeed or judge them fairly. But I think we should be addressing the delivery in, the coaching and selections. Because arguably, there's no need for a KPF if we continue to play this way. And selfishly, I don't want to spend all my time passionately defending them all when their low impact has origins well before the game starts. The best outcome now is having a 'development year', so I just pray we develop them appropriately and not continue the status quo.

[bornadog]

All three are great to have on the list, but you can't play players out of form just because they have height.

[bulldogtragic]

All three are great to have on the list, but you can't play players out of form.

How can you get into form is a part of my point? You can be a great runner like Schche, or a great mark like Naughton. But both got bugger all footy in their last 7-8 quarters of AFEL footy as a KPF. Perhaps quiet games in output isn't about them altogether. If you can't get delivery to advantage, which we don't deliver them, you will never work back into form in the seniors. In a sense they're being set up to fail.

[GVGjr]

It's so important this year that we not only back these young and talented group of talls but also give them the opportunities

Schache is a great talent. He needs to get more physical with the way he plays but we should get him back into the seniors and I think he will answer the challenge

I think we have to show a but more patience with a Boyd return given the injury interrupted preseason he had. There is no point in rushing him back if it means taking a risk.

In an ideal scenario we should have 2 big versatile talls for the 2nd half of the season

Naughton has had two quiet games up forward but he's had two opponents who have been playing so well. Jones has hardly put a foot wrong this season and has got the better of all of his opponents this year and Hamling remains one of the better one on one defenders
I suspect Naughty will return to the back line when Boyd returns but I can understand why the MC has pushed him forward.

As BT pointed out, these 3 talls can offer us so much if we can get them playing to their level and I remain optimistic that we can get it working for us.

[The Adelaide Connection]

It’s time to employ a “squeaky wheel gets the grease” philosophy.

Before playing these three forwards again we need to do the right thing by them and get our media department to make up a tape of edits showing how many times a game they have been held, blocked, and arm chopped by opponents without any infringement being paid. Emulate the best coach in the business (Clarko) who regularly “seeks clarification” and tells the media he will be doing as much. Do you think the umpiring fraternity don’t hear this and at least make them a bit more vigilant/hesitant?

We can be critical of all three (certainly lesser of Naughton) but the reality is no-name, developing forwards get adjudicated so differently to established big names (like Riewoldt, Franklin, etc.). This effect is multiplied when playing on a star defender (like a Rance or Talia who could tie you up and hit you with a dump truck without punishment a lot to the time).

Bevo went as far as he ever has in his press conference on this issue last night, but changed the subject not wanting to make excuses. That’s all noble and good and well that you don’t want to blame your loss on it straight after a game, but now the club need to make sure they are stomping their feet over the week.

It must be difficult developing confidence when once in a blue moon our entries are actually to your advantage, only to have your opponent infringe without consequence. I have always thought that Boyd, in particular, gets an incredibly raw deal.

Time to do something about it.

[ratsmac]

It's quite the conundrum. Bad form because the boys don't kick it too you!! It must be frustrating playing KPF at the dogs. We've been starved ever since Barry Hall IMO.

I am in the corner of Boyd not getting a good go at it for long enough at FF. He was forced to play ruck due to injuries and he did perform better playing ruck than FF at that time. He never owned that position either though and then his own injuries and personal issues arose. Unfortunate but that's his journey.

Schache seems to have been allowed to play forward more that ruck duties than Tom, but thats probably because he sucks at playing ruck. Schache will be a great KPF for us as soon as he shows presence and competes consistently. He has the tools except he lacks mongrel, which all the gorillas need to have.

However our delivery is awful more than not but that's partly due to the modern day game these days. Congestion due to zoning and the forward press takes away all the space to lead into and makes pin pointing passes near impossible. It's the easy miss kicks that infuriates. Now the good functioning forward lines create space for each other to lead into with movement, blocks and creativity which is something we lack big time. Whether we aren't coached properly in that area or the players aren't up to it... I dunno. All I know is that we need someone to stand up and be the general in the forward line because we lack leadership up there big time.

[Danjul]

The problem holding back these three players is what is holding back the team - handball! More emphasis on precision kicking please.

When was the last time you saw a running player receive a bullet pass so that they didn’t break stride. Or a forward mark hands out in front of their face so their opponents couldn’t spoil.

Better kicking, quicker kicking, more direct kicking. Then the players will know where the ball is going and get in good position. And the forwards might be one on one.

Then the supporters can enjoy a few goals for a change.

[SonofScray]

It's a great OP, with the examples really pertinent. I'd add Walsh and Jones to the list too.

It's a white knight issue. If you aren't Chris Grant or Beasley or Carey/Lloyd we just write them off. There's no development or acceptance of the role outside of a superstar.

[S Coast Simon]

Brisbane and Hipwood are a great example of persistence paying off. They left Hipwood in the team even when he was hardly near it and not really doing anything. He is going great these days he is confident and going for it. Our three need to be left to their position. Naughton FB
Boyd FF
Scache CHF.
Leave them in the team and learn to play with them. They need the time and patience now to pay dividends later on. Give them some continuity.

By by the way Freo made us look slow. Our draw can’t help either Sunday , Friday, Sunday is terrible for training. You will notice the favourite clubs don’t get messed around like we do.

[Danjul]

Good thread BT.

We should bring in Schache and play him regardless. Boyd should come back in when he has form and fitness.
I'm not against Naughton as a forward but we do miss him as a defender. He's a conundrum for the selectors

prior to the GC and Collingwood games Schache averaged 12 disposals per game and 1.5 goals per game. Why the dramatic change.

I suggest it is the way that the ball is moved down the ground and into the forward line. Too slowly followed by too high.

that is why all the forwards are failing.

[bornadog]

prior to the GC and Collingwood games Schache averaged 12 disposals per game and 1.5 goals per game. Why the dramatic change.

I suggest it is the way that the ball is moved down the ground and into the forward line. Too slowly followed by too high.

that is why all the forwards are failing.

The forwards get plenty of opportunities because we pump the ball into the FWD 50 almost more than any other team. Schache's efforts need to improve. He needs to really attack the ball.

[GVGjr]

The forwards get plenty of opportunities because we pump the ball into the FWD 50 almost more than any other team. Schache's efforts need to improve. He needs to really attack the ball.

Yep, at times he just lacks the vigor required. Given he put on size and muscle in the off season it's a shame he doesn't appear to have the confidence to throw his weight around.

[Jeanette54]

After watching Footscray play Williamstown today, I noted the total lack of any recognisable system.

Surely Bevo and Gia must be on the same constructive page when it comes to coaching.

It looked like Gia's instruction was to get it, and either handball or kick it haphazardly (more or less) in our direction. The lack of discipline and team direction was astounding. That resulted in us attacking on the negative flank with the wind, and defending on Willie's attacking flank when they had the wind.

Oh, wait. They are on the same page.

I have no idea how any of our KPP's can improve with this type of team practice.

Fix the system (or establish one) and we will be back on the road to recovery, and our players will improve.

[MrMahatma]

We’re seemingly spoilt for talent in KPF stocks more than almost ever... I’d like to see the guys given an extended crack at their best spot.

It’s not like the other fwds in the team are killing it, so there’s little downside.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Schache has been putrid for the last few weeks, but is it any wonder we looked like we might score when we had him and Naughton paired together in Rounds 1 & 2?

Like most, I want to see Boyd play FF for the long term.

I think we can play Boyd, Naughton and Schache in the one side. All compliment one another in that Boyd is the 'Hawkins' close to goal type (ala bail out option), Naughton is our Daniher (Runs and jumps at the ball) whilst Schache is a leading forward.

Dickson is done and Gowers isn't the answer.

We can easily, and should, try and build a forward half around all of Boyd, Naughton and Schache.

But we won't.

[kruder]

Schache has been putrid for the last few weeks, but is it any wonder we looked like we might score when we had him and Naughton paired together in Rounds 1 & 2?

Like most, I want to see Boyd play FF for the long term.

I think we can play Boyd, Naughton and Schache in the one side. All compliment one another in that Boyd is the 'Hawkins' close to goal type (ala bail out option), Naughton is our Daniher (Runs and jumps at the ball) whilst Schache is a leading forward.

Dickson is done and Gowers isn't the answer.

We can easily, and should, try and build a forward half around all of Boyd, Naughton and Schache.

But we won't.

With this set up I'm guessing we would only play one Ruck?

[bornadog]

With this set up I'm guessing we would only play one Ruck?

Surely Boyd would play second ruck, but only for short stints

[The Bulldogs Bite]

With this set up I'm guessing we would only play one Ruck?

Yep - long term this is English. This year, he'll need to be rested at times. Boyd would still likely need to chop out in the ruck for 5-8 mins a qtr, which is fine.

I'd like to see us commit to a structure, even when it doesn't work for a week or two. Commit to it. Most would be satisified with a Boyd/Naughton/Schache combo, understanding of the fact that all 3 need to improve in certain areas. I'm sick of us playing mids as key forwards (ie. Dunkley) and expecting success. Boyd won't be a star KPF but he is predictable in that he brings the ball to ground - this is a POSITIVE. We can then recruit pressure small and medium forwards to work with the talls.

Instead, Bevo and co are hellbent on commiting to structures that simply were never and have never worked (Dunkley as a key forward or ruck, Jong rucking, Gowers FF etc).

Let's be predictable - a BIG key forward to bring the ball to ground (Boyd), an agile jumping key forward to compliment Boyd (Naughton), a leading forward (Schache) and small/medium pressure forwards. This is a structure which is LONG proven. We have some of this cattle on our list already, so let's commit to it and NEVER kill our eyes watching our horrible kicking mids play as key forwards ever again!

[Twodogs]

Yep - long term this is English. This year, he'll need to be rested at times. Boyd would still likely need to chop out in the ruck for 5-8 mins a qtr, which is fine.

I'd like to see us commit to a structure, even when it doesn't work for a week or two. Commit to it. Most would be satisified with a Boyd/Naughton/Schache combo, understanding of the fact that all 3 need to improve in certain areas. I'm sick of us playing mids as key forwards (ie. Dunkley) and expecting success. Boyd won't be a star KPF but he is predictable in that he brings the ball to ground - this is a POSITIVE. We can then recruit pressure small and medium forwards to work with the talls.

Instead, Bevo and co are hellbent on commiting to structures that simply were never and have never worked (Dunkley as a key forward or ruck, Jong rucking, Gowers FF etc).

Let's be predictable - a BIG key forward to bring the ball to ground (Boyd), an agile jumping key forward to compliment Boyd (Naughton), a leading forward (Schache) and small/medium pressure forwards. This is a structure which is LONG proven. We have some of this cattle on our list already, so let's commit to it and NEVER kill our eyes watching our horrible kicking mids play as key forwards ever again!


I agree. Let's back our guys in to do it better than the other team's guys. It might mean we are taking take some thumpings in the short term but at least we would be working towards something. Even if our guys aren't up to it then at least we find out and we can move on to something else. Somebody (think it was BT) said last week that it's like we are a little bit pregnant in that we aren't one thing or the other but more stuck in the middle and not going forward. At this rate we will just get picked off week after week until our players have no confidence in themselves, their teammates or the team.

[The bulldog tragician]

This is an interesting discussion, and I agree that developing key forwards hasn’t been a strength in many a year and the lack of one was seen as why we couldn’t get it done in 08-09 with an undersized forward line, hence the recruitment of Barry hall. We do seem to lack patience in letting young talls develop and trying to build a team around them, Liam Jones was probably the last one we hoped to make the grade.

(It’s funny though how we won the flag..not with a gorilla but by a makeshift group. Clay Smith, Liam Picken, Cordy...the natural forwards were Dickson (not a KPP) & Stringer who did not kick the bags of goals we all thought he would on big stage.)

[kruder]

Yep - long term this is English. This year, he'll need to be rested at times. Boyd would still likely need to chop out in the ruck for 5-8 mins a qtr, which is fine.

I'd like to see us commit to a structure, even when it doesn't work for a week or two. Commit to it. Most would be satisified with a Boyd/Naughton/Schache combo, understanding of the fact that all 3 need to improve in certain areas. I'm sick of us playing mids as key forwards (ie. Dunkley) and expecting success. Boyd won't be a star KPF but he is predictable in that he brings the ball to ground - this is a POSITIVE. We can then recruit pressure small and medium forwards to work with the talls.

Instead, Bevo and co are hellbent on commiting to structures that simply were never and have never worked (Dunkley as a key forward or ruck, Jong rucking, Gowers FF etc).

Let's be predictable - a BIG key forward to bring the ball to ground (Boyd), an agile jumping key forward to compliment Boyd (Naughton), a leading forward (Schache) and small/medium pressure forwards. This is a structure which is LONG proven. We have some of this cattle on our list already, so let's commit to it and NEVER kill our eyes watching our horrible kicking mids play as key forwards ever again!


I like the setup but we need to add speed at their feet and unfortunately we have no one on the list to play this role. Why the hell would you draft Porter, Duryea and Hayes when we are crying out for the speed and craftiness forward( a specialist not a resting inside mid)to go along with our developing talls?

Cavara is the only one we have had a crack at, lets hope he can get some continuity at VFL over the coming weeks and push for selection.

[LostDoggy]

Genuine question can anyone name one player who learned to be hungry after being in the sytem for 4 yrs? Learned to be aggressive? And became a very good player? You can teach a player to football but you can't teach him to want to learn and play.

Can anyone name one single 200cm player who was successful as a deep fwd when averaging 3 or less marks per game for the first 5/6 years of his career? Just one?

Boyd and Schache will never amount to much beyond bit part players IMO. (Excepting a couple of famous games). Pipedreaming to ignore the evidence in front of us.

Naughton and English will be guns they are the future.

[bornadog]

Why the hell would you draft Porter, Duryea and Hayes .

Because they didn't cost anything. All late picks are unknowns and at least Duryea, a premiership player can add some experience.

[bornadog]

Can anyone name one single 200cm player who was successful as a deep fwd when averaging 3 or less marks per game for the first 5/6 years of his career? Just one?.

From any team, or just us?

[FrediKanoute]

We will crucify Naughton playing him as the sole tall in attack. He has to play with one of Schache or Boyd otherwise he gets the best defender. Schache was putrid v GCS and the Pies, but we should have persisted with him.

[LostDoggy]

From any team, or just us?

Any team, ever.

[Bulldog4life]

We will crucify Naughton playing him as the sole tall in attack. He has to play with one of Schache or Boyd otherwise he gets the best defender. Schache was putrid v GCS and the Pies, but we should have persisted with him.

I think he would have been persisted with if it was just form.

[hujsh]

The forwards get plenty of opportunities because we pump the ball into the FWD 50 almost more than any other team. Schache's efforts need to improve. He needs to really attack the ball.

How about hitting a target or kicking to advantage? Pump it in all you want, it will amount to jack shit as we have well and truly proven over nearly 2 full seasons now.

[bulldogtragic]

How about hitting a target or kicking to advantage? Pump it in all you want, it will amount to jack shit as we have well and truly proven over nearly 2 full seasons now.

This to me is the issue here. All three could be absolute guns, or absolute duds, but we will never know at this rate. To me rating any of them as forwards is akin to rating batsmen who have got run out cheaply 10 innings a row and then saying they aren't applying themselves, or skilled, or making enough runs. It's a team sport, like cricket, what your team mates do/don't do is important to output and perception. Bombing the ball in shallow, or hacked entries, or teammates not hitting you up, or honouring leads, or other forwards bringing company to where you are to allow easy spoils to me is the equivalent of being run out by a 'yes, no, yes, no, maybe, yes, no, sorry'. Then being blamed for not making runs. Then being dropped for not making runs.

Either Boyd, Schache & Naughton (ex. One game this year) are all sub par KPFs. Or, stick with me, the problem might not be with them alone but elsewhere. And that elsewhere is not improving its kicking and shows no signs of improving, meaning all this talent, all this salary cap, all these contracted years are for nothing. Until we fix the underlying issue of why they can't impact games, ie their team mates won't allow them to, then we can go mad trying to figure out why after being gifted with the three best KPFs in three drafts they couldn't consistently at our club. To me the answer is obvious.

[bulldogtragic]

Genuine question can anyone name one player who learned to be hungry after being in the sytem for 4 yrs? Learned to be aggressive? And became a very good player? You can teach a player to football but you can't teach him to want to learn and play.

Can anyone name one single 200cm player who was successful as a deep fwd when averaging 3 or less marks per game for the first 5/6 years of his career? Just one?

Boyd and Schache will never amount to much beyond bit part players IMO. (Excepting a couple of famous games). Pipedreaming to ignore the evidence in front of us.

Naughton and English will be guns they are the future.

Liam Jones found hunger and aggression. Seems to be doing alright. So that's one. For two, for bonus points, Simon Prestigiacomo.

200cm deep tall forwards isn't much of a sizable class. But Josh Jenkins & Ben Brown couldn't even get into the AFEL system, to under perform such was their stock price. So there's 2, I know you said one, but I want the bonus points. And on these two, they're being judged at older ages and with more experience as a comparison which I wouldn't ask for. Time not being afforded in fairness to Boyd or Schache. The same Boyd that was the real BOG in the GF, and the same Schache that spear headed the best 14 minutes ever played against Hawthorn where he kicked 3 goals in a quarter (just a month ago).

I would never, ever call such young talented KPFs 'bit part players' so early in their careers.

[FrediKanoute]

I think he would have been persisted with if it was just form.

Surely we would have known/picked this up in the pre-season? He has done 2. He is a big kid still feeling his way in the game. Our game plan doesn't make it easy, and this season he has had to contend with Gowers and Dicko in the forward line not really contributing. I agree that his game v GCS and the Pies was sub-par, but structurally we erred in dropping him for the Carlton game. Why drop him and not Gowers or Dicko who were just as putrid?

I don't buy the argument that he is soft. I believe though that there is no point having Schache playing in the 2's. He would have go nothing out of his run at Willi yesterday.

[AshMac]

How about hitting a target or kicking to advantage? Pump it in all you want, it will amount to jack shit as we have well and truly proven over nearly 2 full seasons now.

This is spot on. So many times we burn a leading target and either kick it to a loose man in the grand stand or bomb it into an outnumbered contest at the top of the square.

I want to Schache develop some hardness but it must be excruciating being expected to take marks in those conditions all game.

[LostDoggy]

Liam Jones found hunger and aggression. Seems to be doing alright. So that's one. For two, for bonus points, Simon Prestigiacomo.

200cm deep tall forwards isn't much of a sizable class. But Josh Jenkins & Ben Brown couldn't even get into the AFEL system, to under perform such was their stock price. So there's 2, I know you said one, but I want the bonus points. And on these two, they're being judged at older ages and with more experience as a comparison which I wouldn't ask for. Time not being afforded in fairness to Boyd or Schache. The same Boyd that was the real BOG in the GF, and the same Schache that spear headed the best 14 minutes ever played against Hawthorn where he kicked 3 goals in a quarter (just a month ago).

I would never, ever call such young talented KPFs 'bit part players' so early in their careers.

Brown averaged 4.5 marks a game in his first yr aged 20. Pretty sure Boyd is older and has never hit 3.5 marks a game in a season. Last yr he marked the ball less than half as much as Brown did when he was 20. Same story for Jenkins - 4.5 marks a game in his first yr at around 22 - younger than Boyd was last yr and again doubling Boyds marks per game at the same age.

Liam Jones was just unfit and ran under the ball. Unlike Schache he never shirked body contact and always crashed packs.

No points (let alone bonus points) for you.

Boyd will never be a good let alone a great KPF but could possibly ruck if he gets fit - but will only ever be a bit player at our club as he is already well behind English and the gap will only widen.

Schache will only ever tease with oçcasional decent games but doesnt have the aggression or hunger and IMO will amount to even less than Boyd.

[bulldogtragic]

If that’s what you think, so be it.

[LostDoggy]

If that’s what you think, so be it.

Obviously hope I am wrong. But if Im honest ive moved on from Boyd and was never sold on Josh.

Rather look at the positives. Naughton and English are rippers. Both are way more aggressive than Josh or Tom. Both can mark and seem resilient.

[bornadog]

Obviously hope I am wrong. But if Im honest ive moved on from Boyd and was never sold on Josh.

Rather look at the positives. Naughton and English are rippers. Both are way more aggressive than Josh or Tom. Both can mark and seem resilient.

Two of the best young talls I have seen for a long time. Hopefully they go on with it.

[kruder]

Because they didn't cost anything. All late picks are unknowns and at least Duryea, a premiership player can add some experience.

They are so vanilla we already have all their attributes covered just does not make sense. We lack speed/natural forward ability surely you would have a crack at players with at least one of those attributes.

[jeemak]

They are so vanilla we already have all their attributes covered just does not make sense. We lack speed/natural forward ability surely you would have a crack at players with at least one of those attributes.

We certainly didn't have Duryea's attributes covered, although I was originally skeptical on him when he started with us and I'd like to see what can do forward of the ball should he come back into the side and a spot is vacated by one of Dickson or Gowers. I mean, if being able to safely use the football by foot and kick a long goal from time to time is vanilla, then I'm done with strawberry and chocolate. They are the attributes we desperately need right now.

I'm still dumbfounded by the selection of Hayes, he is a bit light on for anything that stands out in the AFL (though his first career goal was a bloody ripper) and doesn't seem to have the physique to compete against athletic types playing in his position. Not sure about Porter, from reports it's looking like he's going to struggle to maintain a spot on the list as it is.

Whilst I know you didn't mention him, I've been really happy with Sam Lloyd. He plays a really tough role for us and has continued to go at 1.5 goals a game, which is all you can ask of him. He could possibly get involved in scoring chains more and tackle more, but a bit like Crozier last year I'm hopeful he'll continue to find his feet at a new club and have greater impact as the year progresses.

[hujsh]

Brown averaged 4.5 marks a game in his first yr aged 20. Pretty sure Boyd is older and has never hit 3.5 marks a game in a season. Last yr he marked the ball less than half as much as Brown did when he was 20. Same story for Jenkins - 4.5 marks a game in his first yr at around 22 - younger than Boyd was last yr and again doubling Boyds marks per game at the same age.

Liam Jones was just unfit and ran under the ball. Unlike Schache he never shirked body contact and always crashed packs.

No points (let alone bonus points) for you.

Boyd will never be a good let alone a great KPF but could possibly ruck if he gets fit - but will only ever be a bit player at our club as he is already well behind English and the gap will only widen.

Schache will only ever tease with oçcasional decent games but doesnt have the aggression or hunger and IMO will amount to even less than Boyd.

That's a completely arbitrary way to judge a player. So if he averaged an extra mark a game in 2016 getting a cheap kick in defense there'd be hope for him but since he didn't he's stuffed.

As for the question Hipwood is still averaging 3.5 for his career and he's 4 years in. Not dissimilar to one T.Boyd before he was moved to being a number one ruckman in 2017.

[LostDoggy]

That's a completely arbitrary way to judge a player. So if he averaged an extra mark a game in 2016 getting a cheap kick in defense there'd be hope for him but since he didn't he's stuffed.

As for the question Hipwood is still averaging 3.5 for his career and he's 4 years in. Not dissimilar to one T.Boyd before he was moved to being a number one ruckman in 2017.


No I only use marking as a key criterion to judge a 200cm player whose primary role is deep fwd. Some folk are happy with an aerial contest and bugger all marks and goals from a 200cm primary deep fwd. I'm not one of them. If you are big and slow and offer stuff all with ground ball or defensively, you simply have to mark it more than the two times a game Boyd has since the GF.

And on Hipwood, he averaged 3 marks a game in his first two years. Now averaging over 4 marks a game. And in his third yr (last year) he pretty much doubled Boyds marks per game last yr (Boyds fifth yr).

And as English has shown it should be easy enough to get four plus marks per game in the ruck. Last yr in English's second yr, he too comfortably doubled Boyd's marks per game. Both playing ruck for the same team, both with injuries.

Sorry Boyd just doesn't mark it enough to be a successful deep fwd IMO.

As I said, hope Im wrong but we are six yrs in and Boyds marking average year on year has declined while his injuries have piled up. IMO.

[Bullies]

All three are great to have on the list, but you can't play players out of form.

Form doesn't seem to be an issue with them playing Gowers each week. I would rather Schache be given the same opportunities. Boy can play and the penny will drop once he gets a bit of confidence.

[Mofra]

No I only use marking as a key criterion to judge a 200cm player whose primary role is deep fwd. Some folk are happy with an aerial contest and bugger all marks and goals from a 200cm primary deep fwd. I'm not one of them.
When has Boyd ever played as a deep forward for the majority of a game?
He's been a ruck/forward for almost his entire career with us.

FWIW Nicnat averages 1.9 marks per game.

I'm not sure Boyd ever gets close to the player we want him to be but stats never tell the full story.

[Mofra]

Form doesn't seem to be an issue with them playing Gowers each week. I would rather Schache be given the same opportunities. Boy can play and the penny will drop once he gets a bit of confidence.
Schache was terrible in the VFL. We are toast if we reward piss poor efforts like that with promotion.

[hujsh]

No I only use marking as a key criterion to judge a 200cm player whose primary role is deep fwd. Some folk are happy with an aerial contest and bugger all marks and goals from a 200cm primary deep fwd. I'm not one of them. If you are big and slow and offer stuff all with ground ball or defensively, you simply have to mark it more than the two times a game Boyd has since the GF.

And on Hipwood, he averaged 3 marks a game in his first two years. Now averaging over 4 marks a game. And in his third yr (last year) he pretty much doubled Boyds marks per game last yr (Boyds fifth yr).

And as English has shown it should be easy enough to get four plus marks per game in the ruck. Last yr in English's second yr, he too comfortably doubled Boyd's marks per game. Both playing ruck for the same team, both with injuries.

Sorry Boyd just doesn't mark it enough to be a successful deep fwd IMO.

As I said, hope Im wrong but we are six yrs in and Boyds marking average year on year has declined while his injuries have piled up. IMO.

His marks per game went down as he played more minutes in the ruck. That’s why I say this is an arbitrary judgement.

[Bulldog4life]

They are so vanilla we already have all their attributes covered just does not make sense. We lack speed/natural forward ability surely you would have a crack at players with at least one of those attributes.

We did have a crack at a speedster in Impey but missed out.

[bornadog]

We did have a crack at a speedster in Impey but missed out.

I reckon he would have been good for us.

[LostDoggy]

His marks per game went down as he played more minutes in the ruck. That’s why I say this is an arbitrary judgement.

Marking is marking. If Boyd could mark the ball he would. As I said, English played the same role in the same team almost at the same time in only his second yr and doubled Boyds marks per game last year. And English is no Naughton aerially.

And its not just stats, anyone watching Boyd closely could not help but notice how easily he is bumped out of marking contests, how he regularly drops marks on the lead and how he flat hands the ball rather than using a soft 'W'. last yr he even started going for marks one handed. 2.2 marks a game last yr is just the natural byproduct.

No doubt we shall see him deep fwd at some point as he wont be playing predominant ruck while English plays IMO.

I wish him well but see no reason to believe he suddenly ups his marking and becomes any more than a bit part 'structural' player who provides an aerial contest fwd and a ruck chop out for English.

[hujsh]

Marking is marking. If Boyd could mark the ball he would. As I said, English played the same role in the same team almost at the same time in only his second yr and doubled Boyds marks per game last year. And English is no Naughton aerially.

And its not just stats, anyone watching Boyd closely could not help but notice how easily he is bumped out of marking contests, how he regularly drops marks on the lead and how he flat hands the ball rather than using a soft 'W'. last yr he even started going for marks one handed. 2.2 marks a game last yr is just the natural byproduct.

No doubt we shall see him deep fwd at some point as he wont be playing predominant ruck while English plays IMO.

I wish him well but see no reason to believe he suddenly ups his marking and becomes any more than a bit part 'structural' player who provides an aerial contest fwd and a ruck chop out for English.
The second paragraph is all you need and better illustrates your point. Marks per game is not a useful stat without further context. It’s a pretty useless stat normally. I’d like to give Boyd a go as a forward where we let him get form in the VFL then give him time in the seniors to prove himself. I don’t care to make a judgement before then personally. Will Boyd ever get this chance though? Maybe not. Maybe not under this coaching group.

[lemmon]

I think Schache is a centre half back that hasn't been told it yet.

A lot of the criticisms of Josh are the same that were made of Darcy Moore and before him Lachy Henderson - not aggressive enough, doesn't crash packs, doesn't stay involved in the play etc etc.

What he does have is a beautiful field kick, he's a good athlete and moves well laterally for a man of his size, has enough bulk to play key defence, he has good hands and I think is underrated below his knees.

A lot of ingredients there to make a pretty good tall defender.

Naughton's marking is generational - to me he sits at centre half forward for the next 12 years and watches Nick Riewoldt tapes before bed. Boyd plays forward and second ruck to give him some support and stop him being double teamed as much.

Leaves a spot in the backline for Josh.

[Mofra]

The second paragraph is all you need and better illustrates your point. Marks per game is not a useful stat without further context. It’s a pretty useless stat normally. I’d like to give Boyd a go as a forward where we let him get form in the VFL then give him time in the seniors to prove himself. I don’t care to make a judgement before then personally. Will Boyd ever get this chance though? Maybe not. Maybe not under this coaching group.
I hardly saw him forward in the VFL, spent more time in the ruck.
The club clearly see him as a ruck and I suspect the fact he can't mark a leading ball (can mark a high ball) has a bit to do with it.

[bornadog]

I think Schache is a centre half back that hasn't been told it yet.

A lot of the criticisms of Josh are the same that were made of Darcy Moore and before him Lachy Henderson - not aggressive enough, doesn't crash packs, doesn't stay involved in the play etc etc.

What he does have is a beautiful field kick, he's a good athlete and moves well laterally for a man of his size, has enough bulk to play key defence, he has good hands and I think is underrated below his knees.

A lot of ingredients there to make a pretty good tall defender.

Naughton's marking is generational - to me he sits at centre half forward for the next 12 years and watches Nick Riewoldt tapes before bed. Boyd plays forward and second ruck to give him some support and stop him being double teamed as much.

Leaves a spot in the backline for Josh.

THis may very well be the case. I did hear Josh say he has never played in the backline, however, it may suit him.

[hujsh]

I hardly saw him forward in the VFL, spent more time in the ruck.
The club clearly see him as a ruck and I suspect the fact he can't mark a leading ball (can mark a high ball) has a bit to do with it.
They’ve seen how we play right? High ball is about all were likely to give him.

[Mofra]

THis may very well be the case. I did hear Josh say he has never played in the backline, however, it may suit him.
A lot of forwards enter the system then become defenders. Harris/Lake a case in point, and Turtle was predominantly a forward as a junior.

Outside of the bulldogs, Prestagiacomo was considered a 'high-flying forward' pre-draft! Then of course there's SEN's push for a certain 'explosive animal' to be named in the AA squad this year.

[LostDoggy]

The second paragraph is all you need and better illustrates your point. Marks per game is not a useful stat without further context. It’s a pretty useless stat normally. I’d like to give Boyd a go as a forward where we let him get form in the VFL then give him time in the seniors to prove himself. I don’t care to make a judgement before then personally. Will Boyd ever get this chance though? Maybe not. Maybe not under this coaching group.

Boyd was moved to the ruck because he offered so little fwd. Bev said so (but more politely) at the time. So think its a cop out to blame Bev or delivery for that matter.

Agree to disagree on marks per game. If Boyd could mark he would as any 200cm player who could mark should wherever he played. It actually should be easier to mark in the ruck where you don't have a dedicated beast KPD stopper on you.

As someone said, Boyd is like Nic Nat as far as marking goes. But unlike NN he doesn't offer match turning explosive hit outs and clearances as a ruck.

Time will tell the full story. But 6yrs in one suspects time has largely told its tale with Tom.

But who knows, a clear run with injuries and he may improve.

My biggest concern will be that English has his development interfered with by having to play fwd to accomodate Boyd who can only really play ruck with any degree of effectiveness.

[Happy Days]

Appreciate the thought but I don't buy it. He's a natural forward who lacks urgency to his game and willingness to commit to contests. I think that moving him to the backline will mitigate his strengths and do nothing for his weaknesses.

[bornadog]

Appreciate the thought but I don't buy it. He's a natural forward who lacks urgency to his game and willingness to commit to contests. I think that moving him to the backline will mitigate his strengths and do nothing for his weaknesses.

Hey HD, are you talking about Schache?

[Happy Days]

Hey HD, are you talking about Schache?

Yep. Not having any appetite for the contest will cook him regardless of position, so assuming he can learn it we should keep him at the one he's proven to be good at.

[mjp]

This is a cool thread. The only problem is the original premise which is that Boyd, Schache and Naughton were the best talls in their draft.

The best tall in 2013 was McGovern - but he was a rookie, so give it to Cripps. But he is playing as a mid so give it to Barrass.
The best tall in 2015 'right now' is McKay. You would have to say his first few years were behind Schache and Wietering though.
Naughton is miles ahead of the next best for 2017.

The best players at 18 aren't always the best players at 21, or 24, or 27...some of it is environment, some of it is coaching, some of it is the player, some of it is just dumb luck.

[Greystache]

Boyd was moved to the ruck because he offered so little fwd. Bev said so (but more politely) at the time. So think its a cop out to blame Bev or delivery for that matter.

Agree to disagree on marks per game. If Boyd could mark he would as any 200cm player who could mark should wherever he played. It actually should be easier to mark in the ruck where you don't have a dedicated beast KPD stopper on you.

As someone said, Boyd is like Nic Nat as far as marking goes. But unlike NN he doesn't offer match turning explosive hit outs and clearances as a ruck.

Time will tell the full story. But 6yrs in one suspects time has largely told its tale with Tom.

But who knows, a clear run with injuries and he may improve.

My biggest concern will be that English has his development interfered with by having to play fwd to accomodate Boyd who can only really play ruck with any degree of effectiveness.

Boyd had played 16 games as a 19/20 y.o. key forward before we moved him to ruck/forward in 2016. To write off a dominant junior key forward that quickly at AFL level is beyond insane. I guess it's just bad luck we're coming into our third generation without developing a key forward. We just always get ones we immediately realize are no good.

[Go_Dogs]

Boyd had played 16 games as a 19/20 y.o. key forward before we moved him to ruck/forward in 2016. To write off a dominant junior key forward that quickly at AFL level is beyond insane. I guess it's just bad luck we're coming into our third generation without developing a key forward. We just always get ones we immediately realize are no good.

Naughton back to CHB Saturday?

[Greystache]

Naughton back to CHB Saturday?

Who knows, it's deck chairs... Defence is a disorganised mess so he'll be exposed there, but the forward line organisation and delivery is shambolic so he'll get crucified there again. We'll probably play him in the midfield switching into the ruck so we're unpredictable and he'll be lost and confused.

[bulldogtragic]

Who knows, it's deck chairs... Defence is a disorganised mess so he'll be exposed there, but the forward line organisation and delivery is shambolic so he'll get crucified there again. We'll probably play him in the midfield switching into the ruck so we're unpredictable and he'll be lost and confused.

We’re all lost & confused Rick. Why should he be any different??

[hujsh]

Could Naughton run the bench instead? Just throwing out different ways to get players involved.

[Greystache]

Could Naughton run the bench instead? Just throwing out different ways to get players involved.

I wouldn't mind seeing him in charge of the medical team. Does he know how to manage injuries conservatively?

[Bulldog4life]

This thread is getting ridiculous.

[Bulldog4life]

This is a cool thread. The only problem is the original premise which is that Boyd, Schache and Naughton were the best talls in their draft.

The best tall in 2013 was McGovern - but he was a rookie, so give it to Cripps. But he is playing as a mid so give it to Barrass.
The best tall in 2015 'right now' is McKay. You would have to say his first few years were behind Schache and Wietering though.
Naughton is miles ahead of the next best for 2017.

The best players at 18 aren't always the best players at 21, or 24, or 27...some of it is environment, some of it is coaching, some of it is the player, some of it is just dumb luck.

Agree. It is irrelevant where players are picked. For example the "big guy" who dominates the juniors doesn't automatically do it in the seniors.