I seriously dont know

[Twodogs]

how some of the people drawing a wage from our footy club can hold their heads up when they provide performance after performance after performance, season after season after season like this.


Do they have no shame? I mean if I was getting hundreds of thousands to do a job I would at least make sure that I could do the basic fundamentals (and when we are talking footy that is kicking, marking and shooting at goal straight as a player and providing a gameplan that plays to our strengths as coaches) of that job. We are going backwards, not forwards.

[bulldogtragic]

We still have to bottom out. It's not going to be fun this year at all. Premiership of elite kids, then followed by going lower on the ladder year, after year after, year since. Every chance if things continue next year then there's another Shocktober type event. I don't have many addictions, mainly this club, and I just wished it was more fun for more of the time. It doesn't make me nearly as happy as it could or should.

[Twodogs]

We still have to bottom out. It's not going to be fun this year at all. Premiership of elite kids, then followed by going lower on the ladder year, after year after, year since. Every chance if things continue next year then there's another Shocktober type event. I don't have many addictions, mainly this club, and I just wished it was more fun for more of the time. It doesn't make me nearly as happy as it could or should.

You expect an addiction to be fun? You and I probably have traditionally come at addiction from different angles but addictions are never a happy thing whether its caffeine or heroin. So you're right in that it hurts but that's what it is supposed to do.


I still think we should have made the situation with Stringer (especially) and Dalhaus work the way we made it work with Tom Libba. We don't (and never have had) so many quality players that we can afford to pissing them up against the wall when they do come our way. We should have given Stringer the fright of his life, got some commitments about him being more professional and then bought him back into the group. Now Essendon are going to get the benefit of his ability, and it will come.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It’s OK - we will re-sign the coaching group soon.

[bulldogtragic]

It’s OK - we will re-sign the coaching group soon.

Bevo is getting a new contract a year early. Good to know team performance isn't a KPI.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Bevo is getting a new contract a year early. Good to know team performance isn't a KPI.

Absolutely laughable.

[bornadog]

It’s OK - we will re-sign the coaching group soon.

You have been banging on about coaching for 2 years, it gets tiresome. How about looking at the playing group. We have players that are just not good enough to be out there.

[Twodogs]

It’s OK - we will re-sign the coaching group soon.

Yes, that will make things A1 brilliant. And hopefully we will sign the entire group as a package and tell them to never change a thing!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You have been banging on about coaching for 2 years, it gets tiresome. How about looking at the playing group. We have players that are just not good enough to be out there.

About time you actually open your eyes to what’s happening, you’re right I’ve been critical of them for 2 years and what’s changed? Nothing, but good to hear you’re still defending them.

If I didn’t know any better I’d swear you’re a paid employee.

[Twodogs]

You have been banging on about coaching for 2 years, it gets tiresome. How about looking at the playing group. We have players that are just not good enough to be out there.

And these players are chosen by, prepared by and instructed by whom?

Oh yeah, it's the coaches...

[bornadog]

And these players are chosen by, prepared by and instructed by whom?

Oh yeah, it's the coaches...

Coach can't kick it for them

[bulldogtragic]

You have been banging on about coaching for 2 years, it gets tiresome. How about looking at the playing group. We have players that are just not good enough to be out there.

People were banging on about the world being round for years too. They were right. Time doesn't make a fact wrong. That something as painfully obvious as our coaching group isn't being addressed needs to continue to be debated in my opinion whether it's tiresome or not. It's a huge problem and no one deserves a 'pass' for taking this club from premiers to lower on the ladder each year running for three years. Players and coaches, and fitness staff.

[The bulldog tragician]

I am at a loss to understand this. Not the fact we did not win. The Eagles are a powerful team, on their home ground, with more to play for than us. But something about this performance has raised massive questions for me on where we are headed and where improvement will come.

I have been a massive supporter of Bevo and always try to retain faith, but the appearance of disinterested players over the past couple of weeks is really starting to grate on me. I am seeing those signs of a lack of effort which is what I hate more than anything, players not showing care for each other to lead hard, to apply the block, to do the one percenters. I am completely puzzled at our strategy, selections and direction. Our club worked so hard to pull off that amazing flag, but to be a bottom 4 team ago so soon feels a lot harder to take than all those years of misery just seems worse.

[bulldogtragic]

I am at a loss to understand this. Not the fact we did not win. The Eagles are a powerful team, on their home ground, with more to play for than us. But something about this performance has raised massive questions for me on where we are headed and where improvement will come.

I have been a massive supporter of Bevo and always try to retain faith, but the appearance of disinterested players over the past couple of weeks is really starting to grate on me. I am seeing those signs of a lack of effort which is what I hate more than anything, players not showing care for each other to lead hard, to apply the block, to do the one percenters. I am completely puzzled at our strategy, selections and direction. Our club worked so hard to pull off that amazing flag, but to be a bottom 4 team ago so soon feels a lot harder to take than all those years of misery just seems worse.

I'm not even angry as an emotional response. I'm really disappointed with a tinge of sadness, because I agree with everything you post.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I don't think Bevo is the problem.
I do think our lack of change throughout our whole coaching group IS part of the problem.
I would be disappointed if Bevo were to either be turfed or if he got sick of it and put his hat in the ring for say a North, Carlton or maybe Saints job.
I'm recalling Leigh Matthews getting the sack at Collingwood...after being made the fall guy for their failure 5 years after their premiership.
How'd that work out?

[bulldogtragic]

I don't think Bevo is the problem.
I do think our lack of change throughout our whole coaching group IS part of the problem.
I would be disappointed if Bevo were to either be turfed or if he got sick of it and put his hat in the ring for say a North, Carlton or maybe Saints job.
I'm recalling Leigh Matthews getting the sack at Collingwood...after being made the fall guy for their failure 5 years after their premiership.
How'd that work out?

He got gifted 50 gun players after a merge, had all the AFEL money he could ever spend and took his drunkenedness like ego and set about destroying a young kid called Tom Boyd later in life.

And if not for Akermanis, Collingwood would've won one or two if the threepeat. But I digress, they had the players and money from the Sith Lords at AFEL house.

[Twodogs]

Coach can't kick it for them

Seriously BAD? Bevo was a shit kick too but the players don't coach themselves. He relied on the coaches to make him a better player-in the same way our players should be able to rely on the coaches to make them better players. The coach is responsible for playing standards and to give the coaches a pass because they don't kick the ball is (with all due respect) one of those trite things that people say when they don't want to face up to uncomfortable facts. And one of those uncomfortable facts is that the coaching department is underperforming as badly, if not worse than the playing group.

I don't want to be at the head of the queue with a pitchfork wanting to sack one of only two coaches to coach us to a flag in the last 94 years of AFL footy but we cant just continue to drift along in the manner we have or we wont have a club to follow at all.

[Remi Moses]

Totally insane to sack the coach , but we need massive change around him .
Not sacking Buckley and Hardwick the perfect example .
The coach needs a massive self assess as I think he’s a bit deluded with a few on the list

[Rocket Science]

We still have to bottom out. It's not going to be fun this year at all. Premiership of elite kids, then followed by going lower on the ladder year, after year after, year since. Every chance if things continue next year then there's another Shocktober type event. I don't have many addictions, mainly this club, and I just wished it was more fun for more of the time. It doesn't make me nearly as happy as it could or should.

Deep down in my guts I'm readying myself for Bevo to walk at some stage of his own volition in much the same way Boyd has.

I say this in all earnestness.

[bornadog]

I don't think Bevo is the problem.
I do think our lack of change throughout our whole coaching group IS part of the problem.
I would be disappointed if Bevo were to either be turfed or if he got sick of it and put his hat in the ring for say a North, Carlton or maybe Saints job.
I'm recalling Leigh Matthews getting the sack at Collingwood...after being made the fall guy for their failure 5 years after their premiership.
How'd that work out?

It's not a coaching issue, it is a lack of the right players in the right areas. We have the worse defence in the AFL. We don't have intercepting tall players like West Coast do? Where is our McGovern, where is our tight nit backline group. I am beginning to think that guys like Cordy, Trengove, Wood, Williams and even Caleb shouldn't be in the backline.

Caleb gets alot of the ball, but does he instigate attacking footy? Is he a good defender one on one? Cordy is not strong enough or tall enough to play on any decent size forwards, Trengove is shoved around to fill holes. Then we have players that are not ready, like Young.

Our mids get alot of the ball, but are they damaging enough? There are holes all over the ground, and all Bevo and his assistants can do is plug holes and move them around.

We need to get more experience into some of these young players and hope they will be better in the next few years.

[Remi Moses]

Coach can't kick it for them


The effort or lack of it was deplorable in the second half
We should have lead at half time , but to fade like that is totally unacceptable

[Remi Moses]

It's not a coaching issue, it is a lack of the right players in the right areas. We have the worse defence in the AFL. We don't have intercepting tall players like West Coast do? Where is our McGovern, where is our tight nit backline group. I am beginning to think that guys like Cordy, Trengove, Wood, Williams and even Caleb shouldn't be in the backline.

Caleb gets alot of the ball, but does he instigate attacking footy? Is he a good defender one on one? Cordy is not strong enough or tall enough to play on any decent size forwards, Trengove is shoved around to fill holes. Then we have players that are not ready, like Young.

Our mids get alot of the ball, but are they damaging enough? There are holes all over the ground, and all Bevo and his assistants can do is plug holes and move them around.

We need to get more experience into some of these young players and hope they will be better in the next few years.

Goes to the recruiting and list management, and Bevo’s our leader and the buck stops there

[bornadog]

The effort or lack of it was deplorable in the second half
We should have lead at half time , but to fade like that is totally unacceptable

and that is not the coaches fault.

[bulldogtragic]

I'm not quite at sack the coach. But I'm at the head of the queue that says he's contracted for 2020 and a KPI for a future contract must be team performance and is a matter for next year. If he's extended this year, like BMac a year before time was also, it will be a shit show of our own making. Clear out his entire entourage, less the ones that can do the job (Corey), and see how he goes next year and make an informed decision then. But please don't sign him early for no good reason. Everyone at the club needs to drive standards back up, and offering senior coaching contracts must be based on the highest of standards being met (which we are not doing yet).

[bulldogtragic]

It's not a coaching issue, it is a lack of the right players in the right areas. We have the worse defence in the AFL. We don't have intercepting tall players like West Coast do? Where is our McGovern, where is our tight nit backline group. I am beginning to think that guys like Cordy, Trengove, Wood, Williams and even Caleb shouldn't be in the backline.

Caleb gets alot of the ball, but does he instigate attacking footy? Is he a good defender one on one? Cordy is not strong enough or tall enough to play on any decent size forwards, Trengove is shoved around to fill holes. Then we have players that are not ready, like Young.

Our mids get alot of the ball, but are they damaging enough? There are holes all over the ground, and all Bevo and his assistants can do is plug holes and move them around.

We need to get more experience into some of these young players and hope they will be better in the next few years.

Bevo put them in those roles and then selects them each week. How is he not responsible for the re-actions of his actions?

[bornadog]

Bevo put them in those roles and then selects them each week. How is he not responsible for the re-actions of his actions?

We don't have any one else to replace them. When he moves players around this board goes into melt down and he is criticized.

[Eastdog]

The effort or lack of it was deplorable in the second half
We should have lead at half time , but to fade like that is totally unacceptable

That is what is so dissapointing about today.

[Twodogs]

and that is not the coaches fault.

How is a lack of effort not the coach's fault? It's their job to get the best effort out of the players.

[bulldogtragic]

We don't have any one else to replace them. When he moves players around this board goes into melt down and he is criticized.

We have 5,000,000 HBFs. You sighted Daniel & Williams to move from the HBF. We have them covered. He plays Gowers in the middle. Gardner over Schache. Libba & Macrae and others in the forwardline. But it always seems to be the players fault, never Bevo's. Bevo, the guy who trains them, prepares them, selects their roles, selects them in the team, and moves them on match day etc.

[bulldogtragic]

How is a lack of effort not the coach's fault? It's their job to get the best effort out of the players.

Remember in doco year of the dog, how everyone was saying 'Don't sack Joycey. He's a premiership coach a few years ago. Don't criticise Joycey, it's the players. The players should be sacked by Gordo'...

We are playing as a group like we were when (I think it was) Wallis Snr told them to turn the cameras off. Then... No more Joycey.

I'm not advocating termination, but that part of the doco shows how when the playing group gets beaten mentality with the coach, insipid results come, and something has to happen. If the players can't perform, then Grant & Bains need to work it out ASAP. If the players have checked out of the season, I'd like to know so I can too.

[Sedat]

It's not a coaching issue, it is a lack of the right players in the right areas. We have the worse defence in the AFL. We don't have intercepting tall players like West Coast do? Where is our McGovern, where is our tight nit backline group. I am beginning to think that guys like Cordy, Trengove, Wood, Williams and even Caleb shouldn't be in the backline.

Caleb gets alot of the ball, but does he instigate attacking footy? Is he a good defender one on one? Cordy is not strong enough or tall enough to play on any decent size forwards, Trengove is shoved around to fill holes. Then we have players that are not ready, like Young.

Our mids get alot of the ball, but are they damaging enough? There are holes all over the ground, and all Bevo and his assistants can do is plug holes and move them around.

We need to get more experience into some of these young players and hope they will be better in the next few years.
You honestly think our back 6 is responsible for all defending? Do you think any of our midfield group showed the required effort to assist the back 6 in preventing clean and easy opposition F50 ball when we didn't have it?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We have 5,000,000 HBFs. You sighted Daniel & Williams to move from the HBF. We have them covered. He plays Gowers in the middle. Gardner over Schache. Libba & Macrae and others in the forwardline. But it always seems to be the players fault, never Bevo's. Bevo, the guy who trains them, prepares them, selects their roles, selects them in the team, and moves them on match day etc.

Hang on, only a couple of weeks ago, Schache turned out a performance that was softer than tissue paper. And yet he should be in our side right now. I think Bevo is well and truly in the right to present Schache with a clear checklist of what he needs to demonstrate at Footscray before he gets back.
Gardner is clearly a work in progress, but he showed more willingness at his size at the contest, in one game, than Schache has shown in his whole career.
Right now Scache is the Alastair Ford of this generation... low energy.

[GVGjr]

I don't think Bevo is the problem.
I do think our lack of change throughout our whole coaching group IS part of the problem.
I would be disappointed if Bevo were to either be turfed or if he got sick of it and put his hat in the ring for say a North, Carlton or maybe Saints job.
I'm recalling Leigh Matthews getting the sack at Collingwood...after being made the fall guy for their failure 5 years after their premiership.
How'd that work out?

I agree, I don't think Bevo is the problem but he is part of the problem
Sacking him is not an option in my opinion. Lets get him some support and modify his focus

[Twodogs]

You honestly think our back 6 is responsible for all defending? Do you think any of our midfield group showed the required effort to.assizt the defenders in preventing clean and easy opposition F50 ball when we didn't have it?

Yep. Defence is either we have the ball or we are trying to get our hands on the bloody thing and get it back. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't take a lot of thought.


In 2016 when we were playing our best footy we were slapping the ball out of opposition players' hands right from the get-go. We never let them settle and always had them thinking "where the hell are they?"

[bulldogtragic]

Hang on, only a couple of weeks ago, Schache turned out a performance that was softer than tissue paper. And yet he should be in our side right now. I think Bevo is well and truly in the right to present Schache with a clear checklist of what he needs to demonstrate at Footscray before he gets back.
Gardner is clearly a work in progress, but he showed more willingness at his size at the contest, in one game, than Schache has shown in his whole career.
Right now Scache is the Alastair Ford of this generation... low energy.

I hope he makes me eat my words, but Gardner looks like a poor mans Tom Campbell. But one who can't ruck. The physique, the mannerisms all remind me of Soup. But even now Soup seems a safer bet to make it.

Schache gets no grace at the selection table, while others get a huge amount. Everyone has favourites and Bevo is no different.

[bulldogtragic]

Yep. Defence is either we have the ball or we are trying to get our hands on the bloody thing and get it back. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't take a lot of thought.


In 2016 when we were playing our best footy we were slapping the ball out of opposition players' hands right from the get-go. We never let them settle and always had them thinking "where the hell are they?"

The mentality of 'Wall of Biggs' in 2016.

Now it's the 'indifferent uninterested wet blanket of please don't score'.

[jeemak]

It's not a coaching issue, it is a lack of the right players in the right areas. We have the worse defence in the AFL. We don't have intercepting tall players like West Coast do? Where is our McGovern, where is our tight nit backline group. I am beginning to think that guys like Cordy, Trengove, Wood, Williams and even Caleb shouldn't be in the backline.

Caleb gets alot of the ball, but does he instigate attacking footy? Is he a good defender one on one? Cordy is not strong enough or tall enough to play on any decent size forwards, Trengove is shoved around to fill holes. Then we have players that are not ready, like Young.

Our mids get alot of the ball, but are they damaging enough? There are holes all over the ground, and all Bevo and his assistants can do is plug holes and move them around.

We need to get more experience into some of these young players and hope they will be better in the next few years.

You realise why McGovern is so good is largely due to the players in front of him and the structures and tactics the coaching team employ to ensure opposition sides kick to him, right?

Defence starts deep in the forward half and at the stoppage coal face, and the further our opposition moves it away from our goal when they get it the easier it seems for them because the process started with such small amounts of pressure. By the time it gets to our back six or the last line, whoever is there barely stands a chance to influence things positively, and when up against very good to elite forwards they're going to be exposed.

Now I'm not saying our first choice defencive talls in Trengove and Cordy are who we want or need holding up our last line, but what I am saying it largely wouldn't matter who you had down there at the moment because they'd already be cooked before the ball got within 50m of them.

I guess the question comes down to whether our forward half defence through to midfield defence is personnel related or a mental deficiency we have within the players who play in those areas. I think it's the latter coupled with coaching, and I think the coaching can have a really big impact on that if changed.

[Sedat]

Yep. Defence is either we have the ball or we are trying to get our hands on the bloody thing and get it back. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't take a lot of thought.
The likes of Gaff, Cripps, Yeo, etc.. shamed our mids with their two-way gut running in the 2nd half tonight. That 2nd half display from our mids was not even close to the required standard in defensive support.

We had a very good plan to deny WC the ball in the first half, only let down by poor goal kicking and getting smashed at stoppages. Clearly WC changed things up at the break (as things were not going their way in general play despite being in front) and our coaching group were utterly clueless to do anything about it.

[merantau]

The mentality of 'Wall of Biggs' in 2016.

Now it's the 'indifferent uninterested wet blanket of please don't score'.

We could do with some "Wall of Biggs" desperation all over the ground right now.

[Eastdog]

We could try to get a return to the men of mayhem back into our game.

[jeemak]

The likes of Gaff, Cripps, Yeo, etc.. shamed our mids with their two-way gut running in the 2nd half tonight. That 2nd half display from our mids was not even close to the required standard in defensive support.

We had a very good plan to deny WC the ball in the first half, only let down by poor goal kicking and getting smashed at stoppages. Clearly WC changed things up at the break (as things were not going their way in general play despite being in front) and our coaching group were utterly clueless to do anything about it.

I'd actually like to know what our opposition scouting told us about the different modes to which WCE revert to under different situations. At half time we clearly were more effective in general play right up to the point of execution. The opposition was always going to change things up.

Now, I was watching the game within a social environment on an internet feed at a Hanoi sports bar, and all I could see was a pathetic defencive effort. But did WE actually come out at half time and play differently in anticipation of WCE likely trying something different themselves?

Defencive effort aside, something just looked off. Would be interested to know what others think.

[MrMahatma]

It's not a coaching issue, it is a lack of the right players in the right areas. We have the worse defence in the AFL. We don't have intercepting tall players like West Coast do? Where is our McGovern, where is our tight nit backline group. I am beginning to think that guys like Cordy, Trengove, Wood, Williams and even Caleb shouldn't be in the backline.

Caleb gets alot of the ball, but does he instigate attacking footy? Is he a good defender one on one? Cordy is not strong enough or tall enough to play on any decent size forwards, Trengove is shoved around to fill holes. Then we have players that are not ready, like Young.

Our mids get alot of the ball, but are they damaging enough? There are holes all over the ground, and all Bevo and his assistants can do is plug holes and move them around.

We need to get more experience into some of these young players and hope they will be better in the next few years.

Well, from flag winners to irrelevant in 3 years? Players don't draft themselves. Someone isn't up to their job. There have been questions asked about list management, conditioning, coaching tactics, basic skills... a lot in the past couple of years.

I'm not sure how anyone can honestly say Beveridge isn't at least partly to blame for where we're at now.

I wouldn't sack him. But there needs to be a review. Cause all of the areas I've mentioned are issues.

[Bulldog4life]

Seriously BAD? Bevo was a shit kick too but the players don't coach themselves. He relied on the coaches to make him a better player-in the same way our players should be able to rely on the coaches to make them better players. The coach is responsible for playing standards and to give the coaches a pass because they don't kick the ball is (with all due respect) one of those trite things that people say when they don't want to face up to uncomfortable facts. And one of those uncomfortable facts is that the coaching department is underperforming as badly, if not worse than the playing group.

I don't want to be at the head of the queue with a pitchfork wanting to sack one of only two coaches to coach us to a flag in the last 94 years of AFL footy but we cant just continue to drift along in the manner we have or we wont have a club to follow at all.

You might be thinking of the wrong guy Td. In his 118 games Bevo kicked 107 goals 56 behinds. He was a good kick for goal that I remember.

[AutoFill]

It’s OK - we will re-sign the coaching group soon.

“Team Teflon”🤔

[jeemak]

Well, from flag winners to irrelevant in 3 years? Players don't draft themselves. Someone isn't up to their job. There have been questions asked about list management, conditioning, coaching tactics, basic skills... a lot in the past couple of years.

I'm not sure how anyone can honestly say Beveridge isn't at least partly to blame for where we're at now.

I wouldn't sack him. But there needs to be a review. Cause all of the areas I've mentioned are issues.

A genuine review is definitely needed. Given I am not in the country and don't catch radio and visual media I am not sure whether our leaders in Gordon and Baines have been vocal about our current situation but I suspect they haven't been. If this is the case I actually want to see these two acknowledge that there's something that needs to be addressed and it will be addressed.

If the football department can't cope with that then so be it. There seems to be a lack of accountability present at the moment and the club needs to get together and acknowledge that all football areas are underperforming and need to improve publicly.

[Cyberdoggie]

Coach can't kick it for them

Can teach them how to kick properly though, it's the same people every time and they have such fundamental flaws in their kicking action for set shots it's not funny.

Just got to keep it simple. Put your head over the ball, approach in a direct straight line, guide the ball down straight and don't lean back on kick.

It's amazing that they can't do this. Mitch Wallis isn't a great kick of the football but he has a nice simple action when he's within 40metres of goal on set shots, and he would easily be our most accurate kick for goal because he usually follows the few simple points I listed above. Doesn't run around on stupid arcs (unless he's outside 40 because that is his limit!), has a reliable ball drop, keeps his head over the ball and doesn't lean back.

[AutoFill]

How is a lack of effort not the coach's fault? It's their job to get the best effort out of the players.

Agree 100%.

[jeemak]

Can teach them how to kick properly though, it's the same people every time and they have such fundamental flaws in their kicking action for set shots it's not funny.

Just got to keep it simple. Put your head over the ball, approach in a direct straight line, guide the ball down straight and don't lean back on kick.

It's amazing that they can't do this. Mitch Wallis isn't a great kick of the football but he has a nice simple action when he's within 40metres of goal on set shots, and he would easily be our most accurate kick for goal because he usually follows the few simple points I listed above. Doesn't run around on stupid arcs (unless he's outside 40 because that is his limit!), has a reliable ball drop, keeps his head over the ball and doesn't lean back.

Commence with ball held with a bias towards kicking leg (don't bugger around with it), run straight, low ball drop, knee to forehead, follow through.

[Rocket Science]

While we're sacking all the coaches can we sack the social media person too?

https://i.ibb.co/VmVBTJZ/Screen-Shot-2019-06-02-at-9-51-57-PM.png (https://ibb.co/xHh56X0)

Read the room you gormless hack.

[AutoFill]

We have 5,000,000 HBFs. You sighted Daniel & Williams to move from the HBF. We have them covered. He plays Gowers in the middle. Gardner over Schache. Libba & Macrae and others in the forwardline. But it always seems to be the players fault, never Bevo's. Bevo, the guy who trains them, prepares them, selects their roles, selects them in the team, and moves them on match day etc.

That’s hitting the nail on the head right there. I thought we did ok early and I even thought we were a chance.....until I seen Gowers go in to contest a centre bounce. Honestly, whoever is making these positional decisions ( that have been rubbish since 2017) has to make way for someone else. Can anyone else remember English playing about his fourth or so game, in Sydney, in the wet, on the wing?? It hasn’t got any better.

[jeemak]

While we're sacking all the coaches can we sack the social media person too?

https://i.ibb.co/VmVBTJZ/Screen-Shot-2019-06-02-at-9-51-57-PM.png (https://ibb.co/xHh56X0)

Read the room you gormless hack.

It's actually a good representation of where many of us think the club is versus the feelings of fans, isn't it. It's like the whole organisation has become completely out of touch with what's happening in public.

I get that negativity breeds negativity, but misguided positivity breeds cynicism. and the latter seems to be what's happening.

[The bulldog tragician]

It's actually a good representation of where many of us think the club is versus the feelings of fans, isn't it. It's like the whole organisation has become completely out of touch with what's happening in public.

I get that negativity breeds negativity, but misguided positivity breeds cynicism. and the latter seems to be what's happening.

At 3/4 time our social media person said: three quarters down. One to go.

Umm...

Regarding the issue of: do we have the right players vs is it the coaches fault.... again, I have the utmost respect for Luke Beveridge. But the playing list we have at present is now pretty much his. If our backline has deficiencies, then we need to ask why can Roughead hold down a backline position at the team challenging for a flag & why we kept Fletcher Roberts when he didn’t seem to be in our plans. If the problem is no ruck support for English, Then why don’t we play Trengove to assist him, why did we get rid of Campbell. There may be answers, but we don’t seem to be privy to them. The point is that decisions are being made about our list and this is where we are at, but why?

(And, on the query raised about Daniel in the backline, I have my doubts on this strategy too. He is a neat distributor, but we concede goals each week from the simple fact he is the shortest bloke on the ground. Ok, he “ makes the play” but I now see players like Bont and co handpassing backwards to give it to him, which may mean we regain possession, but he will rarely slice open a game by gaining territory such as you get from. Suckling, JJ or Crozier. I think it slows down what is already very slow movement from defence.)

Look, to be honest, we don’t know what’s going on, that’s half the problem, but I see some of the “I don’t really care” body language from those years that we’ve been a rabble and I find it painful when it comes from guys who we know can do so much more.

[bornadog]

We have 5,000,000 HBFs. You sighted Daniel & Williams to move from the HBF. We have them covered. He plays Gowers in the middle. Gardner over Schache. Libba & Macrae and others in the forwardline. But it always seems to be the players fault, never Bevo's. Bevo, the guy who trains them, prepares them, selects their roles, selects them in the team, and moves them on match day etc.

I will put it more simply, we don't have the talent at this stage to win consistently.

[jeemak]

At 3/4 time our social media person said: three quarters down. One to go.

Umm...

Regarding the issue of: do we have the right players vs is it the coaches fault.... again, I have the utmost respect for Luke Beveridge. But the playing list we have at present is now pretty much his. If our backline has deficiencies, then we need to ask why can Roughead hold down a backline position at the team challenging for a flag & why we kept Fletcher Roberts when he didn’t seem to be in our plans. If the problem is no ruck support for English, Then why don’t we play Trengove to assist him, why did we get rid of Campbell. There may be answers, but we don’t seem to be privy to them. The point is that decisions are being made about our list and this is where we are at, but why?

(And, on the query raised about Daniel in the backline, I have my doubts on this strategy too. He is a neat distributor, but we concede goals each week from the simple fact he is the shortest bloke on the ground. Ok, he “ makes the play” but I now see players like Bont and co handpassing backwards to give it to him, which may mean we regain possession, but he will rarely slice open a game by gaining territory such as you get from. Suckling, JJ or Crozier. I think it slows down what is already very slow movement from defence.)

Look, to be honest, we don’t know what’s going on, that’s half the problem, but I see some of the “I don’t really care” body language from those years that we’ve been a rabble and I find it painful when it comes from guys who we know can do so much more.


I will put it more simply, we don't have the talent at this stage to win consistently.

It's because we're rebuilding and we're afraid to say it. I thought everyone already knew this.

Possibly if we'd have landed Hurley after 2016 it would have been different. But it isn't. We're rebuilding but have been too afraid to say it so close to a flag.

Look at the age of our key position players outside of Morris, they're all young (and were still young when Boyd was around) and need time.

Roughead is doing well at the Pies because they defend across the whole ground because they're better prepared and possibly coached than we are now. He'd get murdered in our structure, absolutely murdered.

[bornadog]

It's because we're rebuilding and we're afraid to say it. I thought everyone already knew this.

Possibly if we'd have landed Hurley after 2016 it would have been different. But it isn't. We're rebuilding but have been too afraid to say it so close to a flag.

Look at the age of our key position players outside of Morris, they're all young (and were still young when Boyd was around) and need time.

You have backed my argument, thank you.

[Mofra]

Roughead is doing well at the Pies because they defend across the whole ground because they're better prepared and possibly coached than we are now. He'd get murdered in our structure, absolutely murdered.
Yep. I'd hate to be a defender in our side because the ball just comes in repeatedly with little pressure.

We are clearly a step below other teams in desire to win each and every contest. Macrae's dropped off markedly, McLean is passable as a forward but much better at the contest but is well down, Has Bailey Dale laid a tackle yet since he came back?

We've got a mixture of senior guys playing below their best and kids trying to establish themselves, it's an ugly combination.
Our first half shows we can actually play the game but we miss easy shots then lose concentration and teams that keep the pressure up wear us down and kill us.

[Ghost Dog]

I dunno. If we had nailed those 5 goals we missed in the first, may have given us a wind up. I think this team is really underperforming. Would have been beaten still probably but I reckon we are not as bad as the drubbing suggests.

[Mofra]

I dunno. If we had nailed those 5 goals we missed in the first, may have given us a wind up. I think this team is really underperforming. Would have been beaten still probably but I reckon we are not as bad as the drubbing suggests.
If we took our chances early we would have been up/on par with North too.

Games rarely happen in a vacuum, nail a few difficult early shots and everyone gets a little spring in their step. Naughton's routine looks much better than his kicking action last year, we add 1-2 genuine forwards with goal sense and I think the team lifts. Our mids run just a little harder in transition, our defenders aren't defending such clean F50 entries, it all helps.

[Ghost Dog]

If we took our chances early we would have been up/on par with North too.

Games rarely happen in a vacuum, nail a few difficult early shots and everyone gets a little spring in their step. Naughton's routine looks much better than his kicking action last year, we add 1-2 genuine forwards with goal sense and I think the team lifts. Our mids run just a little harder in transition, our defenders aren't defending such clean F50 entries, it all helps.

Right. North got a wind up with the coaching thing. Now they have some good wins. It's not like they are a vastly better side in talent, but they are playing for each other.

[Ozza]

I don't at all accept that its all the players, and is not a coaching issue.

There is a huge coaching issue.

The best teams in the competition keep their forwards, mids and backs largely in the same areas of the ground. Sure they might move the odd player - but on the most part, the best teams turn up knowing how to play with each other and are consistent and predictable to each other. We have zero of this. Every week we seem like a make shift team all for the sake of 'versatility' that is clearly not working and hasn't worked since Bevo decided at the start of 2017 that we all had to play in all three areas of the ground.

It is time he accepts that he is wrong, swallowed his pride, and knuckled down to picking the best team in their best positions.

His other point of ego/pride/stubborness is a harder one to get around. Bevo is obsessed with competitiveness - and that is fine, we need to be as competitive as possible. But this comes at the expense of talent sometimes. It is why the likes of Schache and Lewis Young aren't getting their development at AFL level, and we play a Lachlan Young, Ryan Gardner or Will Hayes.

I think there is bundles of talent on the list. Sure there are some missing pieces, and particularly with tall players - we need to get more time into them to improve. Bu the list aren't being given the opportunity to gel and to play as cohesively as they should be because they are getting thrown around to all parts of the ground which is very unsettling - and the obsession with competing at the source means we are just bees to the honey pot on game day, getting killed on the outside and leaking easy goals.

Agree that sacking the coach leads to far worse, and huge instability. And the runs on the board are enormous. But the club needs to seriously review and challenge what is happening in this space, because it is not showing any signs of turning around any time soon.

[jeemak]

You have backed my argument, thank you.

Well no BAD, not quite!

We're not coaching well, or selecting well, and the team isn't doing the basics such as bringing consistent effort each game and defending the ground with discipline. When we do these things we can compete well enough and we should be winning a bit more than we currently are.

[bornadog]

The best teams in the competition keep their forwards, mids and backs largely in the same areas of the ground. Sure they might move the odd player -

Which players have moved all over the ground this season?

[mjp]

I will put it more simply, we don't have the talent at this stage to win consistently.

I don't think this is true.

We are caught between defensive systems/philosophies...until we figure out what we want to do (or the players get on the same page with one common plan and DO IT) then we are going to be beaten.

You can argue that West Coast have more talent than us - but you could equally argue that they don't. What they do have is a singular style of play - of having a clear structure behind the ball and a set 'shape' ahead of the ball, together with a methodical ball movement plan than ensures they ALWAYS have these things in place - that all the players have bought into.

The capitulation yesterday was unacceptable. Once again we have conceded a MASSIVE points against score (off the back of WC kicking just 4x goals in the first HOUR of play) and until we stop the bleeding things will only get worse.

If you read my posts on this board, I think you will find I am generally a positive and optimistic 'stick with the plan' type poster...but we cannot win conceding the points against we are conceding - no-one had better mention missing goals 'cos that isn't the problem - and it needs to be fixed and NOW!!!

[bornadog]

If you read my posts on this board, I think you will find I am generally a positive and optimistic 'stick with the plan' type poster...but we cannot win conceding the points against we are conceding - no-one had better mention missing goals 'cos that isn't the problem - and it needs to be fixed and NOW!!!

Totally agree with you MJP, you have convinced me on the lack of defence.

My comment on talent was "at this stage", as I believe we still have players just not up to it, or lack of experience running around.

eg: Ruck - English is going to be a real player for us, but he is young, inexperienced and getting belted in hitouts.

[Axe Man]

Ruck - English is going to be a real player for us, but he is young, inexperienced and getting belted in hitouts.

At times but he held his own yesterday.

[bornadog]

At times but he held his own yesterday.

Hopefully gives him some confidence.

[Ozza]

Which players have moved all over the ground this season?

I'll list them. (And some moves I don't necessarily disagree with - such as Naughton - but making the point we are unsettled).

Suckling performs best at half back. Was half forward yesterday and finally when moved back, got into the game.
Bontempelli plays mid....except for huge portions against the lower sides where he has been predominently forward and we get killed on ball.
Dunkley - forward and even ruck earlier - finally have him in the middle.
Trengove - out of the side, then in as a defender, then a ruckman, now defender again.
Macrae - mostly mid - but inexplicably forward in some games for large periods.
Cordy - Mostly back....stint in the ruck. Stint forward.
McLean - last year a 25 possession mid. Now a barely sighted forward
Richards - All three areas of the ground.
Libba - large chunks forward.
Lipinski - finally breaks in, and gets thrown in as an inside mid, before now finding his proper role on a wing
Dicko - should only be forward. Regularly found on a wing.
Gowers - spent time as an inside mid in games (Why?)
Naughton - back and forward.
Bailey Williams - is a half back....some reason was inside mid in his first game back after VFL for a while.

[bornadog]

I'll list them. (And some moves I don't necessarily disagree with - such as Naughton - but making the point we are unsettled).

Suckling performs best at half back. Was half forward yesterday and finally when moved back, got into the game.
Bontempelli plays mid....except for huge portions against the lower sides where he has been predominently forward and we get killed on ball.
Dunkley - forward and even ruck earlier - finally have him in the middle.
Trengove - out of the side, then in as a defender, then a ruckman, now defender again.
Macrae - mostly mid - but inexplicably forward in some games for large periods.
Cordy - Mostly back....stint in the ruck. Stint forward.
McLean - last year a 25 possession mid. Now a barely sighted forward
Richards - All three areas of the ground.
Libba - large chunks forward.
Lipinski - finally breaks in, and gets thrown in as an inside mid, before now finding his proper role on a wing
Dicko - should only be forward. Regularly found on a wing.
Gowers - spent time as an inside mid in games (Why?)
Naughton - back and forward.
Bailey Williams - is a half back....some reason was inside mid in his first game back after VFL for a while.

Bont, Dunkley, Macrae, Libba - all play mids rotating in forward line.
Trengove - we were forced to play him ruck as Boyd retired, English had a bad corked thigh - cupboard bare.
Cordy 5 min in ruck, although we had to throw him there against North as were being killed.
Dicko ???
Gowers - thrown in mid to help out - again nothing wrong with that.
Naughton - in 11 games probably spent 5 minutes in the backline.
Lippa - Thrown in as an inside mid? Have you been watching VFL, that is where he has been playing.
Williams - I have only seen him play HBF this year?

Suckling has been thrown forward to generate some goals. Maybe he should stick to the backline.

The majority of your argument is about the mids who can't play fulltime in the middle, and need to rotate anyway. Have a look at other teams, guys like Dangerfield play forward sometimes as does Dusty and others.

Your other argument is about rucks - if English goes down, we have no choice.

Sorry Ozza I don't buy it, as far as I can see we have basically stuck with the same players in the same positions with players rotating through the midfield. The backline of Cordy, JJ, Wood, Daniel, Crozier, have been there the whole season. With Trengove going to ruck when English was down.

[Ozza]

Bont, Dunkley, Macrae, Libba - all play mids rotating in forward line.
Trengove - we were forced to play him ruck as Boyd retired, English had a bad corked thigh - cupboard bare.
Cordy 5 min in ruck, although we had to throw him there against North as were being killed.
Dicko ???
Gowers - thrown in mid to help out - again nothing wrong with that.
Naughton - in 11 games probably spent 5 minutes in the backline.
Lippa - Thrown in as an inside mid? Have you been watching VFL, that is where he has been playing.
Williams - I have only seen him play HBF this year?

Suckling has been thrown forward to generate some goals. Maybe he should stick to the backline.

The majority of your argument is about the mids who can't play fulltime in the middle, and need to rotate anyway. Have a look at other teams, guys like Dangerfield play forward sometimes as does Dusty and others.

Your other argument is about rucks - if English goes down, we have no choice.

Sorry Ozza I don't buy it, as far as I can see we have basically stuck with the same players in the same positions with players rotating through the midfield. The backline of Cordy, JJ, Wood, Daniel, Crozier, have been there the whole season. With Trengove going to ruck when English was down.

Do you not see the issue with the instability?

We can argue the toss over individuals roles, but the point is that we are far more unstable than other teams. Look at West Coast yesterday - at least 5 of their forwards (JK, Darling, Cripps, Rioli, Ryan) play forward 100% of the time.

You referenced Dangerfield - he goes forward occasionally, but is on ball the vast majority of the time. Particularly now that Ablett is permanent forward, which is proving to be a good move.

As for the comment that mids can't play there all the time....why not? Did Gaff, Shuey, Redden or Yeo go forward at all yesterday?

[mjp]

Do you not see the issue with the instability?



Yeah, but....

Mclean has played almost exclusively forward - and that seems to cause people to get upset because he should be playing mid. But if he plays mid more, then someone else (Macrae, Libber, Dunks, Bont, Hunter, whoever) has to play forward more.

I 100% get what you are saying but we all seem to want it each way on this - we want everyone settled in positions, but for that to happen we cant field a team...

Pick our best 7 forwards - Naughton, Lloyd....who else? I guess if 'The Fergus' was fit, he could be one. Gowers maybe??? So we end up topping the forward line up with mids as they are in our best 22...but then we have McLean forward not getting as much footy as he would as a mid...

Try doing the same with our backs and mids. That isn't as hard but the back 6 ends up pretty unbalanced...

We have created a bit of a mess

[comrade]

We have created a bit of a mess

So what you're saying is the list is stuffed?

[mjp]

So what you're saying is the list is stuffed?

No - I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in 2019 you can only construct your list so many ways...West Coast are a good example. Sheed is clearly a good player, but got dropped last year because he wasn't impacting as a forward. Gaff whacks Brayshaw, there is a spot in the mids available, hey presto...then he starts this year on fire, Gaff returns from suspension, he gets spat out of the midfled...suddenly he's no good again, Redden gets injured, back in he goes...he's a gun again.

We have: Bont, Daniel, Macrae, Hunter, Dunks, Libber, McLean and Smith who all need to play in the midfield (inside or outside, I don't care). Then you have Suckling, Richards, Williams, Dale, Lipinski and Wallis as well. Again - inside, outside or spat out either forward or back. You can add JJ to that list - and probably Crozier as well.

They have to get the forward/mid balance right because for all of those guys to play some are going to have to play outside mid, half forward and half back. There simply isn't room for them all to play...or we adopt the West Coast model, drop half of the above group to the 2's and play a forward line consisting of forwards - Naughton, Lloyd, Gowers, Greene, Dickson, Schache and Cavarra. 'Cos that's the alternative strategy.

If you watched yesterday, we were OK early then started getting beaten at the stoppages, so Bevo sent a 5th to the clearance, which allowed West Coast to free up Hurn...but what was the coach supposed to do? It looked like we tried to reset it towards the back end of the 3rd, but by then the press was in full effect, then we allowed Waterman to kick 3 in 3 minutes and honestly who cares what happened after that?

Our list isn't stuffed, but if Sidebottom can spend time on a wing and at half-forward and Ablett can go forward with Selwood and Duncan being spat outside the contest, why can't McLean, Macrae, Libber, Dunkley and even Bont deal with playing outside of the contest (either outside mid or hf) for more than 5 minutes at time - have an impact, defend like their lives depend on it and maybe sneak a goal? Honestly, looking at Dunkley he just seems unable to figure it out which is (I guess) fine. Playing forward is tricky. Macrae seems to be sulking every time he goes down there. McLean at least seems enthusiastic but largely ineffective. Wallis has been good at it.

[Hotdog60]

Could the Bont take on M.Boyds old role instead of sending him forward send him back.
His goal kicking has dropped off but his field kicking is very good and his lack of pace may not hurt as much.

[bornadog]

No - I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in 2019 you can only construct your list so many ways...West Coast are a good example. Sheed is clearly a good player, but got dropped last year because he wasn't impacting as a forward. Gaff whacks Brayshaw, there is a spot in the mids available, hey presto...then he starts this year on fire, Gaff returns from suspension, he gets spat out of the midfled...suddenly he's no good again, Redden gets injured, back in he goes...he's a gun again.

We have: Bont, Daniel, Macrae, Hunter, Dunks, Libber, McLean and Smith who all need to play in the midfield (inside or outside, I don't care). Then you have Suckling, Richards, Williams, Dale, Lipinski and Wallis as well. Again - inside, outside or spat out either forward or back. You can add JJ to that list - and probably Crozier as well.

They have to get the forward/mid balance right because for all of those guys to play some are going to have to play outside mid, half forward and half back. There simply isn't room for them all to play...or we adopt the West Coast model, drop half of the above group to the 2's and play a forward line consisting of forwards - Naughton, Lloyd, Gowers, Greene, Dickson, Schache and Cavarra. 'Cos that's the alternative strategy.

If you watched yesterday, we were OK early then started getting beaten at the stoppages, so Bevo sent a 5th to the clearance, which allowed West Coast to free up Hurn...but what was the coach supposed to do? It looked like we tried to reset it towards the back end of the 3rd, but by then the press was in full effect, then we allowed Waterman to kick 3 in 3 minutes and honestly who cares what happened after that?

Our list isn't stuffed, but if Sidebottom can spend time on a wing and at half-forward and Ablett can go forward with Selwood and Duncan being spat outside the contest, why can't McLean, Macrae, Libber, Dunkley and even Bont deal with playing outside of the contest (either outside mid or hf) for more than 5 minutes at time - have an impact, defend like their lives depend on it and maybe sneak a goal? Honestly, looking at Dunkley he just seems unable to figure it out which is (I guess) fine. Playing forward is tricky. Macrae seems to be sulking every time he goes down there. McLean at least seems enthusiastic but largely ineffective. Wallis has been good at it.

You have taken the words out of my mouth, but articulated it better.

[Topdog]

when you should be up by 5 goals at qtr time but are not even leading it is demoralising. We need to do nothing but practice goal kicking for a month, it is beyond a joke now

[Vred]

After reading this thread it doesn't fill me with alot of confidence that things will improve this year, and again we will be waiting for the offseason to change around some pieces both coaching and player wise.. I'm no expect but I still feel both front and back we are weak, when our midfield is on fire they are hard to stop but our inability to kick goals and the amount of goals scored on us from turnovers week after week does get really old.

What's the fix? Goal kicking coach? Dump our large surplus of money on a gun forward (seriously trying to steal Ben Brown or Degoey is what I'd like to do). I don't even know what to do with the backline considering Moz will most likely be throwing in the towel at the end of this season.

If we lose our next game, again, I.. don't even know.

[GVGjr]

After reading this thread it doesn't fill me with alot of confidence that things will improve this year, and again we will be waiting for the offseason to change around some pieces both coaching and player wise.. I'm no expect but I still feel both front and back we are weak, when our midfield is on fire they are hard to stop but our inability to kick goals and the amount of goals scored on us from turnovers week after week does get really old.

What's the fix? Goal kicking coach? Dump our large surplus of money on a gun forward (seriously trying to steal Ben Brown or Degoey is what I'd like to do). I don't even know what to do with the backline considering Moz will most likely be throwing in the towel at the end of this season.

If we lose our next game, again, I.. don't even know.

It's a good point you have raised, losing is one thing, blaming it on inexperience and injuries is often a weaker excuse but it's harder for people to cop when the same problems are occurring and there is almost no sign of improvement

We have to address some of the glaring gaps

[Mofra]

No - I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in 2019 you can only construct your list so many ways...West Coast are a good example. Sheed is clearly a good player, but got dropped last year because he wasn't impacting as a forward. Gaff whacks Brayshaw, there is a spot in the mids available, hey presto...then he starts this year on fire, Gaff returns from suspension, he gets spat out of the midfled...suddenly he's no good again, Redden gets injured, back in he goes...he's a gun again.

We have: Bont, Daniel, Macrae, Hunter, Dunks, Libber, McLean and Smith who all need to play in the midfield (inside or outside, I don't care). Then you have Suckling, Richards, Williams, Dale, Lipinski and Wallis as well. Again - inside, outside or spat out either forward or back. You can add JJ to that list - and probably Crozier as well.

They have to get the forward/mid balance right because for all of those guys to play some are going to have to play outside mid, half forward and half back. There simply isn't room for them all to play...or we adopt the West Coast model, drop half of the above group to the 2's and play a forward line consisting of forwards - Naughton, Lloyd, Gowers, Greene, Dickson, Schache and Cavarra. 'Cos that's the alternative strategy.

If you watched yesterday, we were OK early then started getting beaten at the stoppages, so Bevo sent a 5th to the clearance, which allowed West Coast to free up Hurn...but what was the coach supposed to do? It looked like we tried to reset it towards the back end of the 3rd, but by then the press was in full effect, then we allowed Waterman to kick 3 in 3 minutes and honestly who cares what happened after that?

Our list isn't stuffed, but if Sidebottom can spend time on a wing and at half-forward and Ablett can go forward with Selwood and Duncan being spat outside the contest, why can't McLean, Macrae, Libber, Dunkley and even Bont deal with playing outside of the contest (either outside mid or hf) for more than 5 minutes at time - have an impact, defend like their lives depend on it and maybe sneak a goal? Honestly, looking at Dunkley he just seems unable to figure it out which is (I guess) fine. Playing forward is tricky. Macrae seems to be sulking every time he goes down there. McLean at least seems enthusiastic but largely ineffective. Wallis has been good at it.
I understand the mid log-jam issues, but aside from Hunter we need a second 'run both ways' wingman and right now nobody has made that spot their own.
I really think McLean is capable with chop-outs from one of our developing types (Lipinski / Bailey Dale) but one of our 'inside' mids simply has to develop more outside ability. I understand we're loathe to play Smith more outside as he is the only mid on our list with genuine burst pace.
Vandermeer looks a classic developing wingman but he's not ready and likely won't be this year.

The other argument is as good as Daniel is in the backline as a distributor, the risk of him getting isolated means we have to develop someone else to play that role. McLean is also a chance there as we know Daniel delivers well into the F50 and has spent a fair amount of time at HF where aside from Lloyd there is nobody settled.
The 'McLean problem' is as much an opportunity.