When things aren’t always as they seem

[The bulldog tragician]

Most of us, including me, are feeling a deep gloom about our current prospects and future. The chance that we will slide even further down the ladder, probably win a spoon in 2020, is even being discussed.

This isn’t about trying to be positive or pollyannaish for the sake of it, but... if we went back in the time machine to 2014, even allowing for our realisation that Mcartney wasn’t the right coach, did any of us think our list was in good shape and that a flag was only two years away?

We would have said we lacked quality key position players ... BUT we won a flag with a forward line which only had Stringer as a genuine tall (albeit one who was lucky to be in the team and at 192 cm, not the size of the ‘gorillas’.) We got amazing contributions from a former tagged, two 19 yr olds, and a guy with three busted knees.

At the other end of the ground, no one was raving at the prospect of a backline held together by three former rookies, including two blokes over 30, one who wasn’t a defender and who some thought should retire or head back to Frankston seconds. Fletcher Roberts and Joel Hamling, even in Sept 2016, were nobody’s idea of quality talls, we would have hoped Talua would be That Guy.

We weren’t thrilled about our ruck stocks, never having been too excited about Roughie and not foreseeing that our GReat White Hope of the Forward line, Tom Boyd, would not play a traditional forward role in our premiership but would ruck instead.

If we’d have been told our most naturally talented player Bob Murphy wouldn’t have been out there our disbelief would have grown even further.

I don’t know what’s going wrong at present, but we still have 3 premiership midfielders still very much in their prime (Bont, Macrae, Libba) and two who since then have played midfield (Dunkley, McLean). The sort of genuine tall you could build a team around in Aaron Naughton, and the best young midfielder I’ve seen since Bont in Bailey Smith.

So is our list any worse or less unbalanced than the group from 2016 or were they exceptionally well coached and motivated? How come the versatility idea for some of our lesser lights (Picken a forward, M Boyd a defender, Z Cordy a defensive forward etc) all worked back then? Can’t the ship be turned around again quickly, with some hard conversations and honesty from coaches and players alike? Are things not as bad as they seem?

[mjp]

Yep - cool thread.

I agree with it. In 2014 the place nearly burned to the ground. Let's hope we don't need that type of event to turn the ship.

[Hotdog60]

This where the loss of Monty had a telling impact. He was there for the climb and left when the wheels had full momentum.
Not afraid to tell some home truths even in public.
So the main change from that time is him and we have gone backwards.
It's only looking from the outside in and may be he had put himself in a place that couldn't be recovered but I think how different would thing have been if he was still at the club.
It could have worse or maybe he would have kept the players focus and we may have had a second flag.
Only inside the kennel know and Monty may have wanted to leave because he got over looked in the first place.

[bulldogtragic]

In our history, we've probably had 20+ bad periods. In our history we've won two premierships. There's hope to turn things around, but statically at least, this is probably just another bad period. 2016 is the exception, not the rule based on our history. I do hope things aren't as dire as they seem to be and will be if there's no positive change.

[Twodogs]

This where the loss of Monty had a telling impact. He was there for the climb and left when the wheels had full momentum.
Not afraid to tell some home truths even in public.
So the main change from that time is him and we have gone backwards.
It's only looking from the outside in and may be he had put himself in a place that couldn't be recovered but I think how different would thing have been if he was still at the club.
It could have worse or maybe he would have kept the players focus and we may have had a second flag.
Only inside the kennel know and Monty may have wanted to leave because he got over looked in the first place.

He was disappointed to miss out on the main gig in 2014 (there were murmurings that he had been promised the job) but thankfully he hung around for nearly 2 years after Bevo's appointment because he is loyal and wanted to help the players and Bevo transition into the new coach's era. Surely he would have left at the end of 2014 if his nose was completely out of joint.

He left just after the last H & A round in 2016 in order to prepare for any new coaching jobs that may have come up without the distraction of being involved full time (and they work a lot of hours) at a club.

[The bulldog tragician]

This where the loss of Monty had a telling impact. He was there for the climb and left when the wheels had full momentum.
Not afraid to tell some home truths even in public.
So the main change from that time is him and we have gone backwards.
It's only looking from the outside in and may be he had put himself in a place that couldn't be recovered but I think how different would thing have been if he was still at the club.
It could have worse or maybe he would have kept the players focus and we may have had a second flag.
Only inside the kennel know and Monty may have wanted to leave because he got over looked in the first place.
I don’t think he was the ‘main change’ though of course a significant one. The staggering change is not the loss of one coach, surely it is that NINE premiership players are gone.
Natural attrition/injury: M Boyd and, though a bit prematurely, Picken and the very unlucky Clay Smith
Still playing elsewhere: Stringer, Dahlhaus, Roughead, Hamling.
Mental illness: Boyd.
God knows: the enigmatic Shane Biggs.
Only two in their 30s and foreseeable. The inability to keep the core of that group together is one of the things that is most regrettable in my view.

However, my main point is that the raw mix of talent in the group in 2014 as a whole did not have us salivating, but they were more talented AS A GROUP than we anticipated, with ‘lesser lights’ contributing in unforeseen ways. We did not have 22 stars out there, and you could make a case that our current list contains the same blend of unique talents, plodders that we think we know their ceiling but can thrive in a role given the chance, guys that still have immense potential. All is not lost, I think Bevo needs more support because like all coaches, he is in danger of becoming stuck in tracks of thinking and stick to them to the bitter end.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Out of interest where is Monty now?

I still hate seeing Stringer playing elsewhere. He was frustrating but he was - at times - worth the price of admission alone.

Reality is we are rebuilding now and need more elite, exciting talent. Huge draft coming up - plenty of holes to fill, we are crying out for some raw exciting players to make footy fun again because we’ve been dull for 3 years now.

[bornadog]

I am going to remain half glass full at this stage.

We have been competitive in most of our games this year, but faded in our loses when in a winning position in 5 games.

The trip to WA remains a mystery, we have won one in 14 games over there, in fact we have only won 8 of 37.

Yesterday was expected and I am not sure why many seemed surprised. Talk of sacking the coach and internal turmoil is just nonsense.

We need to move on and see what we can do for the remainder of the year.

[Grantysghost]

Out of interest where is Monty now?

I still hate seeing Stringer playing elsewhere. He was frustrating but he was - at times - worth the price of admission alone.

Reality is we are rebuilding now and need more elite, exciting talent. Huge draft coming up - plenty of holes to fill, we are crying out for some raw exciting players to make footy fun again because we’ve been dull for 3 years now.

Port Adelaide I believe

[FrediKanoute]

I am going to remain half glass full at this stage.

We have been competitive in most of our games this year, but faded in our loses when in a winning position in 5 games.

The trip to WA remains a mystery, we have won one in 14 games over there, in fact we have only won 8 of 37.

Yesterday was expected and I am not sure why many seemed surprised. Talk of sacking the coach and internal turmoil is just nonsense.

We need to move on and see what we can do for the remainder of the year.

Sanest post I have read. We are not that far away. We will finish lower half of the table and probably lower half of the bottom eight. The difference of this year to last year is that we are way more competitive than we were last year. Also we are competitive for longer and our best is closer to what it needs to be.

Whilst we have had a better run with injuries than prior years losing T Boyd and the versatility he offers is a blow, not just for now, but also for the next 5 to 10 years, because he would be that player. Clay Smith is a tragedy. At 25 he should have been the midfield bull and half forward goal sneak that we are crying out for. Picko was a Brad Johnson clone in his ability to mark in the forward line. Deadly accurate kick as well. We wonder why we have dropped off the pace and haven't moved forward this year. These 3 guys alone guys you an answer.

Maybe we weren't smart at the recruitment table, maybe we should have realised at the end of 2017 that Clay would never get back to his best or at the end of 18 that both Picko and Boyd were cooked, but I think that is simplifying the problems a little.

The positives to me out of the West Coast game were the first 40 minutes. Our pressure levels and harassing of the Eagles had us on top. We just didn't capitalise and we allowed them too many easy goals.

What would I like to see:

1) a more defensive mindset from the whole team, with an emphasis on accountability and pressure;

2) More care with kicking for goal - take a shot like your life depends on it; and

3) More support for teammates, lay the shepherd, block the run

To me this is where we are letting ourselves down.

[bornadog]

The difference of this year to last year is that we are way more competitive than we were last year. Also we are competitive for longer and our best is closer to what it needs to be.

People forget that last year we went through some games without kicking a goal for the first half, or quarters without goals.

The difference this year is players are now a little more experienced, but we need to get even more experience into these guys. On the weekend, West Coast had an average of 50 more games than us. Whilst this is not an excuse, what experience does is give you mature heads that can win back control of the game and steady the ship.

We do have lot of deficiencies, particularly in the big man area, but I have no doubt the club has a plan with the recruitment of English, Naughton, Lew Young, Schache, Gardner. Once these guys mature, god help any team coming up against us.

As Fredi has pointed out and MJP keeps telling us, we need to stop the goals against us with a better defensive system.

I would like Bevo to work on defence and come up with an alternative plan to stop goals being kicked against us, whilst continue being an attacking side.

[Axe Man]

Port Adelaide I believe

Yes defence coach at Port. Only started after the end of last season, not sure what he did in the previous 2 years?

[Happy Days]

I still hate seeing Stringer playing elsewhere. He was frustrating but he was - at times - worth the price of admission alone.


Yeah I'm the same - I've heard some pretty cooked stuff about why he was booted that make me not wholly disagree with the decision, but a bigger part of me thinks that Jake wasn't the only unprofessional one in all of this. Part of being an effective man-manager is having the emotional intelligence to navigate conflicts, and Bevo (who I still love) has several black marks against his name in this respect.

Also- it really really irritates me when talented players leaving the club is rationalised as a good thing based on something external to their ability (be it the return gotten (Dahlhaus), the equity achieved (Hamling), or the harmonious effect of being cleansed of their personality (Jake)). We still lose considerable talents in areas of need and replace them with nothing. These are all losses.

[Twodogs]

Yeah I'm the same - I've heard some pretty cooked stuff about why he was booted that make me not wholly disagree with the decision, but a bigger part of me thinks that Jake wasn't the only unprofessional one in all of this. Part of being an effective man-manager is having the emotional intelligence to navigate conflicts, and Bevo (who I still love) has several black marks against his name in this respect.

Also- it really really irritates me when talented players leaving the club is rationalised as a good thing based on something external to their ability (be it the return gotten (Dahlhaus), the equity achieved (Hamling), or the harmonious effect of being cleansed of their personality (Jake)). We still lose considerable talents in areas of need and replace them with nothing. These are all losses.

My mum used to say "why cant we have nice things?" We seem to be hell bent on proving that we can't handle good things.

[Bulldog4life]

Yes defence coach at Port. Only started after the end of last season, not sure what he did in the previous 2 years?

Coaching at one of the private schools in Melbourne.

[Mofra]

Our best two KPPs right now are Naughton (19) and Cordy (22), in terms of KPP they are babies.

God knows where we find two more as Schache is unproven. Le Young very raw, Trengove is a spare parts Mr Fixit then there's Gardner who might be a decent second tall at either end but Cordy isn't a first KPD.
As mentioned we have an experienced, solid midfield group. English is raw but promising.

We have a number of role players, very few of whom have established themselves. Some of these guys have time to make positions their own, in some cases (La Young) performing far better than they ought to be. We also have a genuine second potential A grade mid (Smith).

here's enough there to build from and as we're seen in the past, it can come together surprisingly quickly.

[Ghost Dog]

Our best two KPPs right now are Naughton (19) and Cordy (22), in terms of KPP they are babies.

God knows where we find two more as Schache is unproven. Le Young very raw, Trengove is a spare parts Mr Fixit then there's Gardner who might be a decent second tall at either end but Cordy isn't a first KPD.
As mentioned we have an experienced, solid midfield group. English is raw but promising.

We have a number of role players, very few of whom have established themselves. Some of these guys have time to make positions their own, in some cases (La Young) performing far better than they ought to be. We also have a genuine second potential A grade mid (Smith).

here's enough there to build from and as we're seen in the past, it can come together surprisingly quickly.

Players get certain labels in their career. Already Trengove is being labeled a 'trier' or a 'journeyman', but if he got decent feed he could tear it up in the forward line. I tend to be a little overly optimistic but if he wasn't playing ruck he could do a decent job in the forward line, at least splitting packs.

[Mofra]

Players get certain labels in their career. Already Trengove is being labeled a 'trier' or a 'journeyman', but if he got decent feed he could tear it up in the forward line. I tend to be a little overly optimistic but if he wasn't playing ruck he could do a decent job in the forward line, at least splitting packs.
The label for Trengove is based on an entire career's worth of work. He has been tried in our forwardline too given he was signed as a ruck/forward but his best work at AFL level has largely been in the ruck with his work in defence a close second.

He's aggressive and never drops his head, wonderful teammate and he has allowed Wood to play more of an intercepting game but he's not the long term answer to our KPD needs IMO and as a forward he looks like a ruckman.

[Rocket Science]

The label for Trengove is based on an entire career's worth of work. He has been tried in our forwardline too given he was signed as a ruck/forward but his best work at AFL level has largely been in the ruck with his work in defence a close second.

He's aggressive and never drops his head, wonderful teammate and he has allowed Wood to play more of an intercepting game but he's not the long term answer to our KPD needs IMO and as a forward he looks like a ruckman.

With respect, everyone but you and I have been tried in our forward line but the list of blokes who've flourished rather than perished down there is grim. The personnel might not be the problem ...

Reckon you've nailed Trengove's present value to us though, particularly with Moz still on the sidelines.

[Greystache]

Yeah I'm the same - I've heard some pretty cooked stuff about why he was booted that make me not wholly disagree with the decision, but a bigger part of me thinks that Jake wasn't the only unprofessional one in all of this. Part of being an effective man-manager is having the emotional intelligence to navigate conflicts, and Bevo (who I still love) has several black marks against his name in this respect.

Also- it really really irritates me when talented players leaving the club is rationalised as a good thing based on something external to their ability (be it the return gotten (Dahlhaus), the equity achieved (Hamling), or the harmonious effect of being cleansed of their personality (Jake)). We still lose considerable talents in areas of need and replace them with nothing. These are all losses.

There's also some sections dismissing the regular thumpings as being acceptable because we're a young team, totally ignoring the fact the past 3 years we've had a number of mature and experienced players walking out the door and needing to be replaced with kids. The team doesn't get any older and the youth excuse becomes a permanent crutch.

We can convince ourselves that losing mature players is a good thing because they weren't helping anyway but you have to wonder why guys like Roughead, Dahlhause, Stringer, Hamling can go to other clubs and play a leading role while we thought they either couldn't contribute or weren't worth the trouble to a team at the bottom of the ladder and sinking further. Clearly our people management is sadly lacking.

[bornadog]

We all remember Jake pre mid 2016 and his ability, then his life changed for a number of reasons. He has never hit the same heights as his 2015 AA year, and pretty much was a non-event in the finals. Given he was a bully and trouble maker at the club, with no sympathy for Boyd and the things he said and did to him, his off field issues which I won't go into, I am glad he was given his marching orders. To blame his departure on a lack of management at the club is really a joke.

He has continued to be a good ordinary footballer, but nothing special. Good luck to him - the end.

[Mofra]

With respect, everyone but you and I have been tried in our forward line but the list of blokes who've flourished rather than perished down there is grim. The personnel might not be the problem ...

Reckon you've nailed Trengove's present value to us though, particularly with Moz still on the sidelines.
Fair comment - I guess it does go back to a central theme in that I think we need to emphasise the strengths of players rather than try and mitigate their weaknesses, and in part that means playing them in their best position where possible.

Dunkley is a contested mid, so for me he should play in the middle not forward. Wallis is a decent forward or an average mid, he should play far more forward (for the first 6 weeks those roles were reversed).

Richards can run the ball so I think one of his real fortes is wasted forward. Wing for mine, defence a second option.

Gowers is a much better forward than midfielder, he should be played forward.

etc.

I don't think it would take much to get our list into good shape - remember Lloyd and Crozier cost very little and have been fantastic for us. Our core group of mids are in their prime which is always a very good start.

[Danjul]

What would I like to see:

1) a more defensive mindset from the whole team, with an emphasis on accountability and pressure;

.

the team does what it is told.

The coach needs a more practical defensive mindset.

He could start by telling the players to stand 10 to 20 metres closer to their opponents after we score a behind. That might stop the ball leaking to the opposition forwards so easily.

[bulldogtragic]

943

Here's our 3.5 year form line as a graph.

The only question I have is if the trend has bottomed out now, or whether there's more southward going line to come in the graph.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We all remember Jake pre mid 2016 and his ability, then his life changed for a number of reasons. He has never hit the same heights as his 2015 AA year, and pretty much was a non-event in the finals. Given he was a bully and trouble maker at the club, with no sympathy for Boyd and the things he said and did to him, his off field issues which I won't go into, I am glad he was given his marching orders. To blame his departure on a lack of management at the club is really a joke.

He has continued to be a good ordinary footballer, but nothing special. Good luck to him - the end.

So why wasn't he suspended during his time with us if he was so bad?

No doubt he was/is a questionable character but the way we (management) handled the situation was diabolical.

We keep losing proven talent for more youth for various reasons and it needs to stop.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yeah I'm the same - I've heard some pretty cooked stuff about why he was booted that make me not wholly disagree with the decision, but a bigger part of me thinks that Jake wasn't the only unprofessional one in all of this. Part of being an effective man-manager is having the emotional intelligence to navigate conflicts, and Bevo (who I still love) has several black marks against his name in this respect.

I've heard plenty too, and no doubt he was disruptive/unprofessional to a degree, but why wasn't he suspended/punished?

We kicked him out of the club without punishing poor behaviour. Yes, we probably tried to 'help' him, but it still makes no sense to me. IF he was so bad, WHY didn't we send him away from the club for a period of time?

The bloke is supremely talented and we let him walk to one of our biggest rivals.

[bornadog]

So why wasn't he suspended during his time with us if he was so bad?

No doubt he was/is a questionable character but the way we (management) handled the situation was diabolical.

We keep losing proven talent for more youth for various reasons and it needs to stop.

You don't remember he was dropped to the VFL?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You don't remember he was dropped to the VFL?

Form related which was 2016.

If he was as bad as was made out to be he should have been away from the club for a period of time.

We did nothing until we decided to kick him out, which was also handled poorly.

[Bulldog4life]

Form related which was 2016.

If he was as bad as was made out to be he should have been away from the club for a period of time.

We did nothing until we decided to kick him out, which was also handled poorly.

Not one person on this forum knows that for sure TBB.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I've heard plenty too, and no doubt he was disruptive/unprofessional to a degree, but why wasn't he suspended/punished?

We kicked him out of the club without punishing poor behaviour. Yes, we probably tried to 'help' him, but it still makes no sense to me. IF he was so bad, WHY didn't we send him away from the club for a period of time?

The bloke is supremely talented and we let him walk to one of our biggest rivals.
I to agree with you. If he is as bad as it’s made out to be. How have the Bombers been able to change that around and these things not now be a issue.

Biggs an issue, Libba an issue, Dahl an issue. We all have had “issues” in family or workplaces and with some open communication and boundaries most of things fall into line.

I think with the likes of Monty, Murphy, Pickin and Marty Boyd gone has left a huge leadership gap that we didn’t realise would hurt so muck.

I remember seeing Redpath and Roughy in our leadership group and being surprised. Well they have gone too. This equates to 25% of our on field leaders.

[Remi Moses]

Not one person on this forum knows that for sure TBB.

Thankyou . Bit of perspective.

[Eastdog]

It’s been a tough few years after our great premiership win in 2016. We love the Bulldogs and that is why we are so passionate and frustrated at the moment which is totally justified.

Things just have not clicked since then and there are a number of factors contributing to that. Injuries have hit us hard the lasts few years but we can’t really use that as an excuse as we had injuries in the premiership year. Clubs worked us out in 2017. Our premiership was built on team defence and the ability to lock the ball in our forward 50. We didn’t need to score 100 points in a grand final but in saying that you want to be strong up forward which we clearly have not been and this needs to change with a thorough review of our goalkicking people at the club.

We have some great kids coming through which is great but our senior guys haven’t been that great and need to lead the way now. The captain Easton Wood in particular hasn’t been what he used to be. We need strong on field leadership.

There have been good signs at times this season but I’m afraid they have been a bit few and far between judging by our win loss ratio of 4-7 and we have had some heavy defeats taking a hit to our %.

I’m more inclined to keep Bevo but we need to change the assistant coaches around him I feel. King, Corey and Hansen have been here for a number of years so fresh ideas, new direction might be what is required for Bevo to thrive again.

Need to play players in their natural positions and don’t go overboard on experimenting too much. Can work for example with Naughton who has been great up forward this year coming from the back but never play JJ and Woof ahead of the ball.

[AndrewP6]

Form related which was 2016.

If he was as bad as was made out to be he should have been away from the club for a period of time.

We did nothing until we decided to kick him out, which was also handled poorly.

The club provided therapy which he didn't turn up to. Murph publicly said there were 2 years of difficulties. That's a long time to put up with things.

[bornadog]

Form related which was 2016.

If he was as bad as was made out to be he should have been away from the club for a period of time.

We did nothing until we decided to kick him out, which was also handled poorly.

You are speculating. I can tell you 100% that the club did a lot for him to get himself back on track. With flogs like GrubGrubGrubGrubGrubGrubGrub hanging around to make us look bad, the club kept things away from the press. Even David Smorgon sat down with him, every angle was tried.


The club provided therapy which he didn't turn up to. Murph publicly said there were 2 years of difficulties. That's a long time to put up with things.

Exactly.

I don't mind having discussions on a forum but making things up is another thing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The club provided therapy which he didn't turn up to. Murph publicly said there were 2 years of difficulties. That's a long time to put up with things.

Which is kind of my point in that where was the punishment and/or tough love? We effectively let him get away with it until we kicked him out.

Hell, didn’t we suspend Boyd and Cordy for a week for a scuffle?

Remi and alike posters can continue to close their eyes but many of the issues I was raising about our club in 2017 have proven to be a few of our many downfalls since 2016 and the Stringer saga is one of those.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You are speculating. I can tell you 100% that the club did a lot for him to get himself back on track. With flogs like GrubGrubGrubGrubGrubGrubGrub hanging around to make us look bad, the club kept things away from the press. Even David Smorgon sat down with him, every angle was tried.

I know the club tried to help but I question they could and should have penalised him instead of continually wrapping their arms around him. The fact that it finally blew up in the public and NOW he’s back on track is testament to this. We were so hellbent on shielding him and where did it get either of us? The beneficiaries were Essendon.

[Ghost Dog]

I remember when Bmac was the coach. Some of the posters here cast doubt on his decisions, having sat in the box on game day and watched him work. They turned out to be 100% right. You know who you are. There are a lot of clever people here with deep football knowledge, and it's you who make this forum what it is. But I also remember 2016, when many on this board dismissed us. So you never really know. We back this club and make no more excuses, for youth and injuries and whatever. Cause that was 2016 and that is who we are. Things are never as good or as bad as they seem. I firmly believe we could have come close to the Eagles if we handn't have dropped our chins, first quarter says that. And I think this season has some strands of a narrative yet. Prove me right dogs!

[Grantysghost]

Yes defence coach at Port. Only started after the end of last season, not sure what he did in the previous 2 years?
He was at Melbourne Grammar as football director

[Mofra]

Stringer's gone and he's not coming back so he's not relevant in the discussions about what we can do now and in the immediate future.

I mentioned on another thread we have to abandon reputation and talent and simply reward effort as that is playing a large part of where we're breaking down. If that means dropping a senior player and promoting a kid who is barely ready for AFL action (West/Porter/Vendermeer) than so be it. As supporters, if we lose we lose but non-efforts are completely unacceptable.

It may well hurt us for a week or two this year - but for the rest of the year and next year there will be little doubt that effort is a non-negotiable. I don't think it will cause discontent in the playing group as someone busting their gut gets an opportunity.

[Grantysghost]

Stringer's gone and he's not coming back so he's not relevant in the discussions about what we can do now and in the immediate future.

I mentioned on another thread we have to abandon reputation and talent and simply reward effort as that is playing a large part of where we're breaking down. If that means dropping a senior player and promoting a kid who is barely ready for AFL action (West/Porter/Vendermeer) than so be it. As supporters, if we lose we lose but non-efforts are completely unacceptable.

It may well hurt us for a week or two this year - but for the rest of the year and next year there will be little doubt that effort is a non-negotiable. I don't think it will cause discontent in the playing group as someone busting their gut gets an opportunity.

Totally agree you set a code of conduct and you enforce it no matter the player. This applies on and off the field. You can't say well player X you don't have to wear your seatbelt today because you're a premiership player. Applies to everyone , all the time and you have systems in place to assist those who are having a hard time. Personally as I've gotten older my favourite part of Aussie rules and following the dogs is the new kids coming through. Remember Bonts weaving goal on the boundary v Melbourne, wow! So to tie in with this great thread, things aren't as bad as they seem when you have at start of the season Dunkley, Cordy, Scache, West, Roberts, Gowers, English, Naughton, Smith, Richards, Williams, Lipinski, Greene, Young1, Young 2, Dale, Porter, Hayes, Lynch, Gardner (have I missed anyone!) that are just starting their senior careers with less than 50 games who else would you follow ! The wheel turns, in this instance a little WD-40 wouldn't go astray but it will turn and with the aforementioned list, some smart recruitng, our bona fide stars and Bevo at the helm I'm greatly anticipating our next time in the sun (because 1. I miss Cairns and 2.The last one was too short!)
Go dogs.

[ledge]

I know the club tried to help but I question they could and should have penalised him instead of continually wrapping their arms around him. The fact that it finally blew up in the public and NOW he’s back on track is testament to this. We were so hellbent on shielding him and where did it get either of us? The beneficiaries were Essendon.

I’m not sure they have benefited at all , he hasn’t done anything but be an average AFL footballer with them in two years, with an above average wage/contract.
I would say we have benefited.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I’m not sure they have benefited at all , he hasn’t done anything but be an average AFL footballer with them in two years, with an above average wage/contract.
I would say we have benefited.

He's still got 7+ years of footy left, he's slimmed up this year and was playing solid footy prior to injury.

He's not going to be Gary Ablett (thanks BT) but he's a good player capable of great moments and we effectively replaced him with Gowers (positionally) and Schache (draft picks) who have been abysmal this year.

Dogs supporters can keep saying how "we benefited" from Stringer leaving but there is absolutely no evidence of this on or off field.

Anyway - my last post on this topic.

[Rocket Science]

He's still got 7+ years of footy left, he's slimmed up this year and was playing solid footy prior to injury.

He's not going to be Gary Ablett (thanks BT) but he's a good player capable of great moments and we effectively replaced him with Gowers (positionally) and Schache (draft picks) who have been abysmal this year.

Dogs supporters can keep saying how "we benefited" from Stringer leaving but there is absolutely no evidence of this on or off field.

Anyway - my last post on this topic.

Yeah but ...

https://i.ibb.co/z2v9DDP/Screen-Shot-2019-06-05-at-1-02-39-PM.png (https://ibb.co/C9GCDDV)

[hujsh]

Yeah but ...

https://i.ibb.co/z2v9DDP/Screen-Shot-2019-06-05-at-1-02-39-PM.png (https://ibb.co/C9GCDDV)

Finally some proper perspective

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yeah but ...

https://i.ibb.co/z2v9DDP/Screen-Shot-2019-06-05-at-1-02-39-PM.png (https://ibb.co/C9GCDDV)

Thank god he’s gone! ;)

[Twodogs]

Thank god he’s gone! ;)

Manbuns should be against the law. I don't care what law, it could be the law of physics for all I care just as long as we can start holding men down in public and cutting their manbuns off.

[Greystache]

He's still got 7+ years of footy left, he's slimmed up this year and was playing solid footy prior to injury.

He's not going to be Gary Ablett (thanks BT) but he's a good player capable of great moments and we effectively replaced him with Gowers (positionally) and Schache (draft picks) who have been abysmal this year.

Dogs supporters can keep saying how "we benefited" from Stringer leaving but there is absolutely no evidence of this on or off field.

Anyway - my last post on this topic.

Exactly.

We were worse the year after he left and are worse again this year. There is absolutely nothing to suggest we are better for having him leave, and I don't even rate him as a player anywhere near as highly as many on here used to.

He's also kicked more goals in the past 2 seasons than any Bulldog player. There is actual evidence to prove that!

[bornadog]

Exactly.

We were worse the year after he left and are worse again this year. There is absolutely nothing to suggest we are better for having him leave, and I don't even rate him as a player anywhere near as highly as many on here used to.

He's also kicked more goals in the past 2 seasons than any Bulldog player. There is actual evidence to prove that!

The club is bigger than the individual.

[Greystache]

The club is bigger than the individual.

Plus the club knows best.

[bornadog]

Plus the club knows best.

Seems troll knows best.

[Greystache]

Seems troll knows best.

Nah the club, always the club. No point discussing otherwise.

[macca]

Thank god he’s gone! ;)

New hairstyle , Is this after watching Aladdin ?

[LostDoggy]

Aw, little mini bun.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I remember when Bmac was the coach. Some of the posters here cast doubt on his decisions, having sat in the box on game day and watched him work. They turned out to be 100% right. You know who you are. There are a lot of clever people here with deep football knowledge, and it's you who make this forum what it is. But I also remember 2016, when many on this board dismissed us. So you never really know. We back this club and make no more excuses, for youth and injuries and whatever. Cause that was 2016 and that is who we are. Things are never as good or as bad as they seem. I firmly believe we could have come close to the Eagles if we handn't have dropped our chins, first quarter says that. And I think this season has some strands of a narrative yet. Prove me right dogs!

Our lack of experience size and class eventually proved our undoing against WCE. We are still to establish a recognised goal to goal line structure which quickly needs to happen to become competitive over four quarters. Important to get a win against Carlton to boost morale and confidence.

[WBFC4FFC]

Our lack of experience size and class eventually proved our undoing against WCE. We are still to establish a recognised goal to goal line structure which quickly needs to happen to become competitive over four quarters. Important to get a win against Carlton to boost morale and confidence.

Agree with the summation about the spine being Inexperienced.

Just think we are letting too many soft goals over the top at present. This hurts when you are not putting the Scoreboard pressure on at the other end.

Having said that, when we were on last Sunday we played a pretty good brand of footy versus earlier in the year, when the scores were lower/tighter. Thinking Bevo would rather get the attacking mindset going a bit more, even if it means conceding a few cheapies.

[Ghost Dog]

Agree with the summation about the spine being Inexperienced.

Just think we are letting too many soft goals over the top at present. This hurts when you are not putting the Scoreboard pressure on at the other end.

Having said that, when we were on last Sunday we played a pretty good brand of footy versus earlier in the year, when the scores were lower/tighter. Thinking Bevo would rather get the attacking mindset going a bit more, even if it means conceding a few cheapies.

All players want finals success. Have our players, achieving what they did in 2016, then after a miserable few subsequent years, stopped believing we are a club to get them there?

[G-Mo77]

Our lack of experience size and class eventually proved our undoing against WCE. We are still to establish a recognised goal to goal line structure which quickly needs to happen to become competitive over four quarters. Important to get a win against Carlton to boost morale and confidence.

Not going to happen. They'll be booming with confidence after they embarrassed us earlier this season and we'll give the new coach his first W. We can say we are inexperienced and to a small degree we can ride that excuse but for the most part we're just garbage.

[Remi Moses]

So we should have kept Stringer regardless of the issues players were having with him ?
Okaaaay :rolleyes:

[GVGjr]

All players want finals success. Have our players, achieving what they did in 2016, then after a miserable few subsequent years, stopped believing we are a club to get them there?

I'm not so sure, other clubs back up great years with good ones. There is something missing with us, it's not injuries or that the list isn't good enough for us to have a good season. As NBP mentioned it's important to start with a win against Carlton and to have a strong 2nd half of the season.

[GVGjr]

So we should have kept Stringer regardless of the issues players were having with him ?
Okaaaay :rolleyes:

Not at all, I'd argue that Bevo cost us some currency with Stringer but in the end we had to trade him away

[Bulldog4life]

So we should have kept Stringer regardless of the issues players were having with him ?
Okaaaay :rolleyes:

Agree. He had to go. Simple as that. Not sure why we are even talking about him.

[Mofra]

I'm not so sure, other clubs back up great years with good ones. There is something missing with us, it's not injuries or that the list isn't good enough for us to have a good season. As NBP mentioned it's important to start with a win against Carlton and to have a strong 2nd half of the season.
Johnno expressed concerns about our game plan off the back of the JLT games. Not personnel, gameplan.
As far as I can tell everything he said has come true.

I think our issues are fixable but I really don't think that much can be done mid-season. It will take some analysis and a pre-season of changing strategy to fix our problems - the main issues for mine being ball-retention, pressure on the ball carrier and forwardline efficiency. We still seem to be playing in a similar manner as 2016 and other teams have caught up, changed their style, and gone past us.

[Jeanette54]

Does anyone else think its time we heard from the coach, what the club is trying to achieve, and (specifically) how he plans to go about it.

To be fair I can't remember any coach actually doing this in public, but it would be great for the supporters to know that we actually plan further ahead than the next training session. I can't be the only supporter who thought 2016 might have set up a dynasty of success, only to be disappointed by both our lack of success and apparent lack of any discernable direction.

Is there any value in getting the plan (if there is one) out there, so we can get onboard and at least see some progress. Yes, even in a loss there can be progress.

I understand it would be a ground breaking move but if anybody would be prepared to step outside the norm it would be Bevo.

To be honest this year reminds me of the aimless Royce Hart period, no plan, no direction and no hope. That was the worst period in my time of watching the 'Dogs, but this is getting perilously close.

[G-Mo77]

Not at all, I'd argue that Bevo cost us some currency with Stringer but in the end we had to trade him away

But there is a theme. We had to trade Stringer, we had to let Dahlhaus go, Libba we have had public issues as well. We seem to have a lot of trouble handling the players that are a bit more "out there" Why? Stringer seems to be moving along OK, Dahlhaus is much better since moving. Why? Players are not all perfect and need to be managed correctly so why do we seem to have issues? Not all good players past and present are perfect role models we need to find a way to manage them better rather than throwing them in the too hard basket.

[GVGjr]

But there is a theme. We had to trade Stringer, we had to let Dahlhaus go, Libba we have had public issues as well. We seem to have a lot of trouble handling the players that are a bit more "out there" Why? Stringer seems to be moving along OK, Dahlhaus is much better since moving. Why? Players are not all perfect and need to be managed correctly so why do we seem to have issues? Not all good players past and present are perfect role models we need to find a way to manage them better rather than throwing them in the too hard basket.

My guess is that we tried to get the distracted players back on track and they weren't responding leaving us with minimal options.
Stringer was bad for other players as well and leaving him there would have been a bigger issue
We made Dahlhaus a good offer based on his form since the GF but he wanted more which he is entitled to do but one that we weren't prepared to match.
It's not surprising to me that both players have done OK since their departure as it was never a question on their talent just their commitment

We clearly took our foot off the accelerator in 2017 and momentum is a bitch to get back after some people realise they don't have to be manic in their preparation and dedication. Clearly that was a challenge for Bevo and the club and we fell short of it but trading away Stringer and not offering Dahlhaus overs to stay were the right decisions.

[The bulldog tragician]

Does anyone else think its time we heard from the coach, what the club is trying to achieve, and (specifically) how he plans to go about it.

To be fair I can't remember any coach actually doing this in public, but it would be great for the supporters to know that we actually plan further ahead than the next training session. I can't be the only supporter who thought 2016 might have set up a dynasty of success, only to be disappointed by both our lack of success and apparent lack of any discernable direction.

Is there any value in getting the plan (if there is one) out there, so we can get onboard and at least see some progress. Yes, even in a loss there can be progress.

I understand it would be a ground breaking move but if anybody would be prepared to step outside the norm it would be Bevo.

To be honest this year reminds me of the aimless Royce Hart period, no plan, no direction and no hope. That was the worst period in my time of watching the 'Dogs, but this is getting perilously close.

It’s always hard to remember how good or bad things were in the past, but hey, those Royce Hart years (yep I was around for them too) don’t remotely resemble where we are at this year. We won two games in 1981 and must have set a new record in losses by more than 10 goals. We were putrid. I’m not happy where we are at this year, the strange thing is a few weeks ago we could have been top 4 if we’d just beaten GC and the Bluebagging cheats. We’d been competitive in our losses. I’m alarmed at our listlessness in the past couple of weeks but it ain’t no 1981, remembering too that we hadn’t won a final for 20 years then (admittedly we’d only made the finals twice)...ok, I’m depressing myself, but we’ve endured worse than this slump!!

[Ghost Dog]

Johnno expressed concerns about our game plan off the back of the JLT games. Not personnel, gameplan.
As far as I can tell everything he said has come true.

I think our issues are fixable but I really don't think that much can be done mid-season. It will take some analysis and a pre-season of changing strategy to fix our problems - the main issues for mine being ball-retention, pressure on the ball carrier and forwardline efficiency. We still seem to be playing in a similar manner as 2016 and other teams have caught up, changed their style, and gone past us.

What did he say Mofra? I suspect it was about our forward line.

[jeemak]

Plus the club knows best.


Seems troll knows best.

You two lovebirds crack me up.


Johnno expressed concerns about our game plan off the back of the JLT games. Not personnel, gameplan.
As far as I can tell everything he said has come true.

I think our issues are fixable but I really don't think that much can be done mid-season. It will take some analysis and a pre-season of changing strategy to fix our problems - the main issues for mine being ball-retention, pressure on the ball carrier and forwardline efficiency. We still seem to be playing in a similar manner as 2016 and other teams have caught up, changed their style, and gone past us.

He was right to an extent, but I don't think what he is commenting on was actually our plan - rather - just how we play when we're not playing well.

When our pressure is up and we're defending well we can take the ball and move it forward effectively by both hand and foot, probably in a way no other team has been able to do in the past few years. We look a million bucks when make it work.

When our pressure is down, the opposition is moving it forward freely and is able to set up defencively we have a tendency to move the ball away from goal by hand and it all becomes too much for us and we turn it over and leak, or get bogged down going sideways.

Like you I think our issues are fixable from an effort and team defence perspective. We actually just need some leadership across both the coaching and senior players to drive the standard. However, there needs to be a change in coaching personnel and approach to match improved effort. The former will have to wait until the end of the year, the latter can actually be put into place now.

[Greystache]

My guess is that we tried to get the distracted players back on track and they weren't responding leaving us with minimal options.
Stringer was bad for other players as well and leaving him there would have been a bigger issue
We made Dahlhaus a good offer based on his form since the GF but he wanted more which he is entitled to do but one that we weren't prepared to match.
It's not surprising to me that both players have done OK since their departure as it was never a question on their talent just their commitment

We clearly took our foot off the accelerator in 2017 and momentum is a bitch to get back after some people realise they don't have to be manic in their preparation and dedication. Clearly that was a challenge for Bevo and the club and we fell short of it but trading away Stringer and not offering Dahlhaus overs to stay were the right decisions.

How distracted was Roughead?

He's come out this week and said he'd have quit football if he had to stay at the Bulldogs.

Not only did he hate football while at the club but we couldn't find a role for him on field (he'd have 10 goals kicked on him every week in the disorganised chaos that's our defence) but he can be the centre piece in the defence of a top 4 team pushing for a premiership. The question has to be asked why are so many players are so unhappy. Macrae looks like the next candidate this year. The results just seem to be the output of something really broken.

[GVGjr]

How distracted was Roughead?

He's come out this week and said he'd have quit football if he had to stay at the Bulldogs.

Not only did he hate football while at the club but we couldn't find a role for him on field (he'd have 10 goals kicked on him every week in the disorganised chaos that's our defence) but he can be the centre piece in the defence of a top 4 team pushing for a premiership. The question has to be asked why are so many players are so unhappy. Macrae looks like the next candidate this year. The results just seem to be the output of something really broken.

I don't think Roughead was an issue at all. We should have tried more to keep him. Macca was really taken to task for trying him as a defender (and where he actually did OK) and yet Bevo who seems to crave versatility couldn't really find a him a role for a player who can play as a key defender and ruckman. Buckley will seem like a inspired coach.

I know some players need that fresh start but he'd been with us since he was 18 and he'd been a greater leader and it's a shame he felt like he needed a fresh start elsewhere and that he wanted away from the Whitten Oval rather than play for us.
He's no world beater but it's good to see he has kicked on in his new role

[Hotdog60]

It makes you wounder that the dogs thought rotating the coaching panel after 2016 was their idea to freshen things up for the players and have a different perspective.

In hind sight maybe we should have kept the winning formula going until it got stale. Its good for the coaches to gain experience across the board but is it good for the players after they bond with a coach and have ultimate success.

If the coaches need something to freshen them up maybe that's when they look elsewhere at another club but at club level you stay where you are until it doesn't work anymore.

[Greystache]

I don't think Roughead was an issue at all. We should have tried more to keep him. Macca was really taken to task for trying him as a defender (and where he actually did OK) and yet Bevo who seems to crave versatility couldn't really find a him a role for a player who can play as a key defender and ruckman. Buckley will seem like a inspired coach

It's hard to understand. We seem to only want to play players in multiple positions if they show they can't do it.

Roughead seemed his most natural as a defender and is probably playing career best footy as one at the moment. There were some on this forum that claimed not only should he have never played in defence but it ruined his development. They were ridiculous claims at the time and just look absurd now.

[comrade]

The place doesn’t need to be blown up and rebuilt from the ground up but it’s getting close to that. Collingwood and Richmond have both been in similar spots in recent time (from an external perspective) and they managed to turn the corner. How did they do it?

We’ve gone from being one of the most committed and close knit playing groups to an absolute basket case in 2 years with a number of players dreading the place. That sort of environment is fostered by the coaching group, IMO. We need a complete clean out of the assistants at the very least and Bevo needs someone senior to reign him in.

And as much as I love CG as a club legend, I’ve got no faith in his ability as a back office manager.

[GVGjr]

It's hard to understand. We seem to only want to play players in multiple positions if they show they can't do it.

Roughead seemed his most natural as a defender and is probably playing career best footy as one at the moment. There were some on this forum that claimed not only should he have never played in defence but it ruined his development. They were ridiculous claims at the time and just look absurd now.

I talked to Macca once and asked him about the move and I got the impression he didn't see it as a long term solution but more around his faith that Roughead could make it work.

[bornadog]

I talked to Macca once and asked him about the move and I got the impression he didn't see it as a long term solution but more around his faith that Roughead could make it work.

We had no one else that tall to take on some of the taller forwards, so I guess Macca was trying to fill it. Minson was a better ruckman anyway. At the time I thought Roughead was only just serviceable in that role.

[Sedat]

Johnno expressed concerns about our game plan off the back of the JLT games. Not personnel, gameplan.
As far as I can tell everything he said has come true.

I think our issues are fixable but I really don't think that much can be done mid-season. It will take some analysis and a pre-season of changing strategy to fix our problems - the main issues for mine being ball-retention, pressure on the ball carrier and forwardline efficiency. We still seem to be playing in a similar manner as 2016 and other teams have caught up, changed their style, and gone past us.
This is even more damning for Bevo and the match committee than the results indicate. Our 2015/2016 'Men of Mayhem' game plan has already been vastly improved upon (by Richmond in 2017), completely superseded (by West Coke in 2018) and is now well and truly dead and buried (by all the top 5-6 contenders in 2019, who prioritize retention of the ball and moving it slowly and carefully into F50). The fact that Bevo and his assistants seem to think the 2016 game plan is still relevant today is astounding. Richmond just had a sobering moment that their window with the mosquito small forward fleet has been unceremoniously slammed shut - we are still playing around the edges with an even older and less relevant game plan.

I very much fear Bevo has been exposed as a one-trick pony who has shown a complete and utter inability to adjust and adapt to stay ahead of the curve. He had no answer whatsoever to 3rd man up, he hasn't been able to find any advantage for the team with the recent rule changes, and he has been out-coached most weeks by inferior playing lists in the last 2.5 years. Player development is also clearly a major issue - who has actually improved from pre-season 2017 to today?

I'm leaning towards Bevo and the Dogs parting company sooner rather than later. He was absolutely perfect for the club in 2015-2016 but time waits for nobody.

As for off-season analysis, this is 1.5 years too late. Bevo has allowed the club to drift into the abyss since Oct 2017 (arguably 12 months prior but I'll cut the club some slack just as Hawthorn 2008 and Essendon 1993 can attest when a flag is won 'ahead of time').

[chef]

We had no one else that tall to take on some of the taller forwards, so I guess Macca was trying to fill it. Minson was a better ruckman anyway. At the time I thought Roughead was only just serviceable in that role.
What we would give for someone who is servicable in that role now.

[GVGjr]

This is even more damning for Bevo and the match committee than the results indicate. Our 2015/2016 'Men of Mayhem' game plan has already been vastly improved upon (by Richmond in 2017), completely superseded (by West Coke in 2018) and is now well and truly dead and buried (by all the top 5-6 contenders in 2019, who prioritize retention of the ball and moving it slowly and carefully into F50). The fact that Bevo and his assistants seem to think the 2016 game plan is still relevant today is astounding. Richmond just had a sobering moment that their window with the mosquito small forward fleet has been unceremoniously slammed shut - we are still playing around the edges with an even older and less relevant game plan.

I very much fear Bevo has been exposed as a one-trick pony who has shown a complete and utter inability to adjust and adapt to stay ahead of the curve. He had no answer whatsoever to 3rd man up, he hasn't been able to find any advantage for the team with the recent rule changes, and he has been out-coached most weeks by inferior playing lists in the last 2.5 years. Player development is also clearly a major issue - who has actually improved from pre-season 2017 to today?

I'm leaning towards Bevo and the Dogs parting company sooner rather than later. He was absolutely perfect for the club in 2015-2016 but time waits for nobody.

As for off-season analysis, this is 1.5 years too late. Bevo has allowed the club to drift into the abyss since Oct 2017 (arguably 12 months prior but I'll cut the club some slack just as Hawthorn 2008 and Essendon 1993 can attest when a flag is won 'ahead of time').

An extremely thought provoking post as it magnifies our fall from lofty heights and challenges why rather than offering soft but plausible excuses

I don't think Bevo should be departing the Dogs though and it's not because I feel we owe him more latitude after the flag but I think he is working hard on making changes but just going about it in a confused manner. Just a small part of me thinks he might have gotten a bit drunk after the success of 2016 and he has it in the back of his mind that he has to revolutionize the game rather than just fix some of the leaks. If we narrow his focus and find him some support I think he can return to close to his best

Player development is an interesting topic and one that we are clearly lacking in. Why hasn't our skill level improved and why have so many players just stalled?

[MrMahatma]

And as much as I love CG as a club legend, I’ve got no faith in his ability as a back office manager.

Not sure there’s been much discussion on this previously. How is CG performing since he moved into that role?

[Sedat]

An extremely thought provoking post as it magnifies our fall from lofty heights and challenges why rather than offering soft but plausible excuses

I don't think Bevo should be departing the Dogs though and it's not because I feel we owe him more latitude after the flag but I think he is working hard on making changes but just going about it in a confused manner. Just a small part of me thinks he might have gotten a bit drunk after the success of 2016 and he has it in the back of his mind that he has to revolutionize the game rather than just fix some of the leaks. If we narrow his focus and find him some support I think he can return to close to his best

Player development is an interesting topic and one that we are clearly lacking in. Why hasn't our skill level improved and why have so many players just stalled?
Agree with this. If Bevo is to survive and prosper again as our senior coach, there needs to be a dramatic overhaul of our footy dept akin to what transpired at Geelong at the end of season 2006, when Bomber Thompson at the time was stripped of all external responsibilities and was told in no uncertain terms to focus solely on coaching. That turned out ok for the Cats and for Bomber.

I know he's won a flag but I'm far from 100% sold on Bevo being as good a long-term coach as Bomber. It is 3 consecutive years of failure and only 2 successful years out of 5, which is a negative overall coaching record. There should have been much more heat up to this point but it looks like it is finally coming - if we lose next week it will arrive in spades.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Good posts Sedat.

Next week will be big - Carlton are coming for us and we’re ripe for the picking again.

I’ve been astounded at how our club has meekly accepted the last 3 years of results. No chance Hawthorn, Geelong, West Coast etc sit back as idle as we have. We’ve made no noise, we’ve copped no heat but most of all we’ve made no changes - except to further weaken our list from a playing perspective.

I have no faith we’ll make any changes or hard calls - we’ve shown no indication of this in 3 years. Instead we’ve bickered (Gordon and Alberti which was bloody poor) and used scapegoats (Stringer/Dahlhaus) and sent out mixed messages instead of taken any responsibility or action.

Lose next week and surely the heat comes.

[Ghost Dog]

This is even more damning for Bevo and the match committee than the results indicate. Our 2015/2016 'Men of Mayhem' game plan has already been vastly improved upon (by Richmond in 2017), completely superseded (by West Coke in 2018) and is now well and truly dead and buried (by all the top 5-6 contenders in 2019, who prioritize retention of the ball and moving it slowly and carefully into F50). The fact that Bevo and his assistants seem to think the 2016 game plan is still relevant today is astounding. Richmond just had a sobering moment that their window with the mosquito small forward fleet has been unceremoniously slammed shut - we are still playing around the edges with an even older and less relevant game plan.

I very much fear Bevo has been exposed as a one-trick pony who has shown a complete and utter inability to adjust and adapt to stay ahead of the curve. He had no answer whatsoever to 3rd man up, he hasn't been able to find any advantage for the team with the recent rule changes, and he has been out-coached most weeks by inferior playing lists in the last 2.5 years. Player development is also clearly a major issue - who has actually improved from pre-season 2017 to today?

I'm leaning towards Bevo and the Dogs parting company sooner rather than later. He was absolutely perfect for the club in 2015-2016 but time waits for nobody.

As for off-season analysis, this is 1.5 years too late. Bevo has allowed the club to drift into the abyss since Oct 2017 (arguably 12 months prior but I'll cut the club some slack just as Hawthorn 2008 and Essendon 1993 can attest when a flag is won 'ahead of time').

Good post. I can't tolerate us languishing when we clearly have so much talent on our list. A kid like Hunter or Jack would be out and out stars in any other big club, with all the others around them.

[boydogs]

Roughead as a defender reminded me of Lewis Young, got lost all the time. He was also very slow, too easy to outmark on the lead. He's a good contested mark when it's bombed in and he has time to get into position, but is easily exposed

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Roughead as a defender reminded me of Lewis Young, got lost all the time. He was also very slow, too easy to outmark on the lead. He's a good contested mark when it's bombed in and he has time to get into position, but is easily exposed
Roughead not unlike Dahlhaus has shown how much easier it is to fit into a potential GF team in Collingwood being a much settled side than the WB. I will always remember Roughy’s courageous efforts in our 2016 Premiership win after coming back from a serious eye injury in the Prelim final.

[GVGjr]

Roughead not unlike Dahlhaus has shown how much easier it is to fit into a potential GF team in Collingwood being a much settled side than the WB. I will always remember Roughy’s courageous efforts in our 2016 Premiership win after coming back from a serious eye injury in the Prelim final.

I'd argue that Dahlhaus hasn't made a lot of difference to Geelong who could easily cover him but if the Pies were to lose Roughead I think they would struggle.

[bornadog]

I'd argue that Dahlhaus hasn't made a lot of difference to Geelong who could easily cover him but if the Pies were to lose Roughead I think they would struggle.

He seems to compliment Moore and they work well together.

[Rocket Science]

Happened to catch 'On The Couch' last night and there were a couple of curious observations about us that gave pause for thought.

First, Roos - and I'm not suggesting he's the oracle he thinks he is - commented that our style of play means the Bulldogs "always give you a chance", except he wasn't talking about us he was talking about our opponents and our propensity to over-share the football.

If opposition coaches share that view, it suggests even when we're ascendant in a contest the other mob always feels they're half a show and if they make some smart adjustments the tide can turn fairly quickly, which frankly correlates with a number of jekyll-and-hyde performances this year where we've played a strong early hand but been reeled in and overrun.

This speaks fundamentally to our game style, its merits, and our ability to execute it.

The second and more curious tidbit came from a discussion about Fremantle under Lyon and the dramatic extent to which they've turned over their list since the end of 2016, with just 12 players remaining since then, the lowest player retention rate in the league.

That's nice for Ross, but look who sits equal second ...

https://i.ibb.co/kG19nPt/Screen-Shot-2019-06-18-at-10-20-43-pm.png (https://ibb.co/b6J2hGk)

Consider Picken and Boyd who I assume were factored in as players no longer there despite the fact we began the season with both on the list, and we might be potentially higher, perhaps highest of all.

Club hierarchy's quick to assert we're a very different team to 2016 and we're leveraged into a deep rebuild, and on one hand they're right, we're obviously retooling.

On the other hand that graph tells very different story relative to the rest of the comp.

So how do you perform a comprehensive rebuild with the equal second most players still on your list across the past 3 years?

[bornadog]

Club hierarchy's quick to assert we're a very different team to 2016 and we're leveraged into a deep rebuild, and on one hand they're right, we're obviously retooling.

On the other hand that graph tells very different story relative to the rest of the comp.

So how do you perform a comprehensive rebuild with the equal second most players still on your list across the past 3 years?

If you look at the graph more closely right up to Port Adelaide the difference is about 3 or 4 players, or one per year - that is 13 teams are about the same. We only have 12 players left from the premiership team - we are a different team and you cant compare this team to that.

[bornadog]

Something that seems not what it is, are skills. Often people on this forum complain about our skills, however looking at the stats:

We are currently ranked last for Clangers, and first for disposal efficiency. We are also second for Effective Disposals.

[Rocket Science]

If you look at the graph more closely right up to Port Adelaide the difference is about 3 or 4 players, or one per year - that is 13 teams are about the same. We only have 12 players left from the premiership team - we are a different team and you cant compare this team to that.

Sure, one can't credibly assert we're the same team as back then, but I certainly hadn't expected the majority of the league to have a higher list turnover rate than us, not forgetting that Boyd & Picken likely put us at the head of the pack had they not both retired.

Speaking of turnover or lack thereof, I just noticed this with interest too ...

'Not wasting a minute': Struggling Dees' coaching shake-up (https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-18/were-not-wasting-a-minute-dees-radical-coaching-shakeup)

[boydogs]

Something that seems not what it is, are skills. Often people on this forum complain about our skills, however looking at the stats:

We are currently ranked last for Clangers, and first for disposal efficiency. We are also second for Effective Disposals.

Handpasses and short kicks into space due to lack of long marking targets

[Happy Days]

I'd argue that Dahlhaus hasn't made a lot of difference to Geelong who could easily cover him but if the Pies were to lose Roughead I think they would struggle.

Gary I love you but this isn't right. Dahlhaus is clearly a better player right now and forever than Roughead and has been awesome for Geelong this year.

[Danjul]

Handpasses and short kicks into space due to lack of long marking targets

I have seen quite a few discussions on this forum use different logical sequences and still finish up with this conclusion.

so maybe it is correct.

[GVGjr]

Gary I love you but this isn't right. Dahlhaus is clearly a better player right now and forever than Roughead and has been awesome for Geelong this year.

I'm talking about the impact to each team not on who is the better player.
Geelong could lose Dahlhaus to an injury and I doubt they would miss a beat, I don't think the Pies could easily cover Roughead though

[Twodogs]

Sure, one can't credibly assert we're the same team as back then, but I certainly hadn't expected the majority of the league to have a higher list turnover rate than us, not forgetting that Boyd & Picken likely put us at the head of the pack had they not both retired.

Speaking of turnover or lack thereof, I just noticed this with interest too ...

'Not wasting a minute': Struggling Dees' coaching shake-up (https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-18/were-not-wasting-a-minute-dees-radical-coaching-shakeup)

That's a slap in the face for B-mac. Down to 'mentoring' the AFL and VFL assistants. What does that even mean? "Don't come monday but we will keep paying you until your contract is finished?"

[AshMac]

this is a really great thread, enjoyed reading it a lot!

I'm a huge Bevo fan but agree he doesnt often seem to have a plan B. He seems like an extreme Alpha who wont take direction and input from others Just like the playing group need to operate as a team, the coaching panel need to do the same and I dont see anyone there that would challenge him and inject new thinking when we stagnate. Sure this is common w senior coaches.

[Scorlibo]

I'm talking about the impact to each team not on who is the better player.
Geelong could lose Dahlhaus to an injury and I doubt they would miss a beat, I don't think the Pies could easily cover Roughead though

Without being able to check the stats, Geelong have been enormous this year at repeat entries and locking the ball in their forward half (ie. what we were once praised for), and Dahlhaus has been their best forward pressure player. He's a key cog for them right now.

[bornadog]

Without being able to check the stats, Geelong have been enormous this year at repeat entries and locking the ball in their forward half (ie. what we were once praised for), and Dahlhaus has been their best forward pressure player. He's a key cog for them right now.

Geelong are ranked 13th for inside 50's yet they have kicked the most goals. This tells me when they get the ball inside 50, they will get a goal more often than other teams, but that doesn't mean they lock it in. I agree with GVGjr, if they lost Dahl right now, their performance would not be really effected.

[Mofra]

Geelong are ranked 13th for inside 50's yet they have kicked the most goals. This tells me when they get the ball inside 50, they will get a goal more often than other teams, but that doesn't mean they lock it in. I agree with GVGjr, if they lost Dahl right now, their performance would not be really effected.
They basically let Menzel go who was terrible for forward pressure and brought in four guys who are elite at it (Dahl, Tom Atkins from the VFL, Gryan Miers who was a second round pick and Dahl clone right down to the hair, and Gary Rohan who they got for peanuts).

In one trade period they turned their weakness into a strength, noting Miers was already on their list but in his first season was developing a VFL level.

[mjp]

They basically let Menzel go who was terrible for forward pressure and brought in four guys who are elite at it (Dahl, Tom Atkins from the VFL, Gryan Miers who was a second round pick and Dahl clone right down to the hair, and Gary Rohan who they got for peanuts).

In one trade period they turned their weakness into a strength, noting Miers was already on their list but in his first season was developing a VFL level.

You guys really need to listen to the latest edition of the 'TRENDS' podcast. They talk quite a bit about Geelong, the problem with the kicking efficiency ranking and the better stat/measure you should be talking about...I know a few people who will also be happy to hear how Geelong have won 2-games they should have lost (vs Collingwood and vs North) simply because they 'out-kicked the expectation' in terms of goal-kicking (and vs North it made a difference of > 4 goals).

[FrediKanoute]

Without being able to check the stats, Geelong have been enormous this year at repeat entries and locking the ball in their forward half (ie. what we were once praised for), and Dahlhaus has been their best forward pressure player. He's a key cog for them right now.

So playing dahlhaus in one position has ensured that he plays to his strengths?

[Twodogs]

You guys really need to listen to the latest edition of the 'TRENDS' podcast. They talk quite a bit about Geelong, the problem with the kicking efficiency ranking and the better stat/measure you should be talking about...I know a few people who will also be happy to hear how Geelong have won 2-games they should have lost (vs Collingwood and vs North) simply because they 'out-kicked the expectation' in terms of goal-kicking (and vs North it made a difference of > 4 goals).

What does that mean? That they kicked straighter than we thought they would?

[hujsh]

What does that mean? That they kicked straighter than we thought they would?

Basically. Given the difficulty of the shots they should have missed more than they did.

[bornadog]

Basically. Given the difficulty of the shots they should have missed more than they did.

Lots of flukes :D

[The bulldog tragician]

I wonder if Geelong’s accuracy is linked to their home ground advantage.

[Twodogs]

I wonder if Geelong’s accuracy is linked to their home ground advantage.

It's probably lots of things but training and playing on the same oval must be an advantage. Not many clubs that do that anymore.

[hujsh]

Both matches were away from GMHBA.

Collingwood was MCG, Roos was Marvel

[Happy Days]

Geelong have been really good but a bit tin arse all year. They were going at nearly best of all time accuracy pace as of the game against us.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

You guys really need to listen to the latest edition of the 'TRENDS' podcast. They talk quite a bit about Geelong, the problem with the kicking efficiency ranking and the better stat/measure you should be talking about...I know a few people who will also be happy to hear how Geelong have won 2-games they should have lost (vs Collingwood and vs North) simply because they 'out-kicked the expectation' in terms of goal-kicking (and vs North it made a difference of > 4 goals).

Thanks for the recommendation. Just listened to the latest episode and thoroughly enjoyed it. Will go back and listen to the others now.

[azabob]

Thanks for the recommendation. Just listened to the latest episode and thoroughly enjoyed it. Will go back and listen to the others now.

The other good one is an RSN podcast “Beyond The Numbers” which drops ever Thursday morning. Hosted by Daniel Harford, Brendon Goddard and Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data.

[mjp]

The other good one is an RSN podcast “Beyond The Numbers” which drops ever Thursday morning. Hosted by Daniel Harford, Brendon Goddard and Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data.

100%.

These two podcasts are awesome if you are keen on trying to understand exactly what is going on and what sort of information is driving coaching/match committee/recruiting decisions.

[bornadog]

The other good one is an RSN podcast “Beyond The Numbers” which drops ever Thursday morning. Hosted by Daniel Harford, Brendon Goddard and Daniel Hoyne from Champion Data.

I enjoy that one.

I have subscribed to Trends and see how it goes.

[azabob]

Today’s episode of “Beyond the Numbers” last 7 minutes focuses on the dogs and gives a great insight to what we have changed pre and post bye.