Three things you have learned round 13 2019 v Carlton.

[Twodogs]

Three things is all we want...

[GVGjr]

Bump

[bulldogtragic]

1. Bailey Dale is Fredo Corleone, to my Michael. Two tackles in three games, the exact opposite of 2016 Finals. For all my defence of you and this is what you do to me. His time with us needs to go out fishing with Al on a big lake.

2. Gardner over Schache? Hubris and taking everyone as fools.

3. If not for 5 minutes of play by Suckers in the third, this was another loss to the 18th team for sure.

[AshMac]

1. We are incapable of playing four full quarters

2. I officially have no idea what the correct interpretation of holding the ball is anymore

3. Please only be jarring of the knee...

[Twodogs]

1/ I don't want Tom Libba to be injured long term again. I mean if he is then we just wait until he has healed but for God's sake...

2/I love beating Carlton.

3/ When we play out full quarters and games then we are going to be a bloody good team.

[bornadog]

1. Tim English is improving every game.

2. Dale has confirmed what I feared

3. Gardner still very raw, but he was plying his 2nd game, so not too concerned yet.

[westdog54]

1. Tim English is going to be just fine.

2. We will be Charlie Curnow's bunny through his career.

3. Channel 7s stalking of the security guards is adding fuel to a completely overblown fire.

[Danjul]

1. Daniel should not be given the kick in.
2. Cordy should not be CHB.
3. The second ruck role needs some ​thought

[lemmon]

1. Lipinski is absolutely part of our core midfield group. He's added a real hard edge to his game.
2. The emergence of Dunkley has made Bont a far better player.
3. English is starting to imprint himself on games. That forward 50 mark in the last was huge.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

1. Dunkley is one of the better mids in the comp - works both ways. Beast.

2. Lipinski is making strides forward now. Great size, uses it well and is now finding more of the ball through winning it in close. Always been a fan - think he can develop into another big mid.

3. Cordy as a defender? I still don’t really see it.

[merantau]

Lipinski is an interesting one. I didn't think he was going to be a player but I will have to re-think that.
Libba is a key player for us.
It seems Aaron Naughton is rapidly becoming to go-to bloke if you want to scrag someone and get away with it.

[Mantis]

1/ Our inability to curb momentum swings is frustrating.

2/ It's an extremely important last 10 games for a number of players on our list who are treading water.

3/ As per other comments Lipinski is going to make it, how or why others were preferred to him for the first 6-7 weeks has me staggered.

[Ghost Dog]

1. I'm a football dunce but it took hell and high water for Trengrove and Lipinski to be bought into this side. What the hell for!!
2. I am glad it was so close, in the end. We have to look at the cracks in this side.
3. Anyone who comments on Caleb Daniel and begins throwing around AA for his 80% disposal efficiency is not paying attention towhen and where the other 20% goes south.

[GVGjr]

1. I'm a football dunce but it took hell and high water for Trengrove and Lipinski to be bought into this side. What the hell for!!
.

I was sitting near someone who was asking those very questions.
Lipinski had a great preseason but we seemed to lose all faith after one bad game in the JLT
Trengove should have been playing as well and I think it was the JLT game in Ballarat that stamped his card

[Danjul]

1. I'm a football dunce but it took hell and high water for Trengrove and Lipinski to be bought into this side. What the hell for!!
2. I am glad it was so close, in the end. We have to look at the cracks in this side.
3. Anyone who comments on Caleb Daniel and begins throwing around AA for his 80% disposal efficiency is not paying attention towhen and where the other 20% goes south.

The problem with Daniel and Cordy is they are put in situations where they are not able to succeed. Daniel (my favourite player) can kick accurately over 40 metres, but that doesn’t get the ball far enough from opposition goal even with a 20 run. If the ball goes to a contest it can spill back into the 50 metre arc and the opposition gets a shot at goal. And it often does spill when we have such a short backline. We need a better plan for restarting play. We also need some other plans too.

[bornadog]

I was sitting near someone who was asking those very questions.
Lipinski had a great preseason but we seemed to lose all faith after one bad game in the JLT
Trengove should have been playing as well and I think it was the JLT game in Ballarat that stamped his card

Lipinski was schooled in being an inside mid for the first 7 or 8 games and then took his opportunity when he got a senior game. We tried the same with Webb, who was killing it in the VFL but couldn't make the transition.

As for Trengove, should have been playing from round 1. Trengove is not a star, he is not a pretty footballer, but he gets the job done. Fixed up Harry Mckay last night, who killed us last time.

[The bulldog tragician]

The problem with Daniel and Cordy is they are put in situations where they are not able to succeed. Daniel (my favourite player) can kick accurately over 40 metres, but that doesn’t get the ball far enough from opposition goal even with a 20 run. If the ball goes to a contest it can spill back into the 50 metre arc and the opposition gets a shot at goal. And it often does spill when we have such a short backline. We need a better plan for restarting play. We also need some other plans too.
It is clear though that our game plan is overly focused on getting the ball in Daniel’s hands. He is a neat but far from penetrating kick. Dinky little kicks, or wheeling round a few times to find a target within his range, don’t help us. Having duryea back, and looking to Crozier more, will help because we do move it more slowly into the forward line. We rarely manufacture situations where Naughton is one out, is that due to the slow play out of defence?

[MrMahatma]

1. Winning is to be celebrated, but some on here will only be happy if we play the perfect match.
2. English when fresh, has lots of tricks. Looking forward to him up against Grundy.
3. Bont can be tagged out. Didn’t expect that to happen as drastically as it did.

[lemmon]

We tried the same with Webb, who was killing it in the VFL but couldn't make the transition.


That's fairly revisionist.

Webb showed some great AFL form as a half back, started developing his midfield craft in the VFL but whenever he was promoted he'd play almost exclusively half forward. The guy spent next to no time running through the middle at AFL level.

[westbulldog]

Carlton are worse than us...……..just.
We need a key position defender as a priority.
The AFL is in danger of gagging genuine barracking, what qualifications for such judgement did these clowns roving the aisles have ?

[ratsmac]

1. We can stop a team who has a run on.

2. No we can't.

3. We need Dale Morris back playing desperately.

[bornadog]

That's fairly revisionist.

Webb showed some great AFL form as a half back, started developing his midfield craft in the VFL but whenever he was promoted he'd play almost exclusively half forward. The guy spent next to no time running through the middle at AFL level.

Like Dale, I can't see Webb making it. He had chances and didn't take them.

[Twodogs]

The AFL is in danger of gagging genuine barracking, what qualifications for such judgement did these clowns roving the aisles have ?


They all have their cert III in being obnoxious and making instant judgements with no context.

[Mofra]

1. English will be a star

2. Naughton chases hard, constantly

3. When we really needed him, Hunter lifted.

[Danjul]

That's fairly revisionist.

Webb showed some great AFL form as a half back, started developing his midfield craft in the VFL but whenever he was promoted he'd play almost exclusively half forward. The guy spent next to no time running through the middle at AFL level.

Couldn’t agree more. Webb brings others into the game which is a skill in itself.

He showed some talent in his early games but has not been given more than two consecutive games in the last three years. He would average 12 possessions and get a goal here and there... And then be dropped even though others had a worse game. I can remember him kicking a quarter of the teams goals in game and then being droped.

I think his main problem is having a name at the bottom of the alphabet. Too close to Roberts and Schache, not near Cordy and Bevo.

[Twodogs]

Couldn’t agree more. Webb brings others into the game which is a skill in itself.

He showed some talent in his early games but has not been given more than two consecutive games in the last three years. He would average 12 possessions and get a goal here and there... And then be dropped even though others had a worse game. I can remember him kicking a quarter of the teams goals in game and then being droped.

I think his main problem is having a name at the bottom of the alphabet. Too close to Roberts and Schache, not near Cordy and Bevo.


Very good.

[Danjul]

Like Dale, I can't see Webb making it. He had chances and didn't take them.

webb has certainly not been given the chances afforded many other players who have not played as well. He hasn’t had more than 2 consecutive games in the last 3 years. Couldn’t get a game after best on ground performances in vfl.

We have just heard that Gardner will get another game , after 3 possessions, after a poor performance against West Coast. Wouldn’t happen to Webb.

[Jeanette54]

1. Libba is the teams "hard man" at the coalface. He paves the way for others to clear the ball, and is instrumental in restricting the oppositions mids in close.. As soon as he went off Carlton began to halve the clearances, whereas up until then we were killing them.

2. Bont draws opposition players to him, we need to exploit our resulting "free" players better. Particularly in the forward line.

3. Sunday replays are great. To all our disgruntled supporters I suggest you watch the game again, without the stress and emotion of a real time game. You will see things you never notice live, and appreciate our players efforts so much more.

[Twodogs]

1. Libba is the teams "hard man" at the coalface. He paves the way for others to clear the ball, and is instrumental in restricting the oppositions mids in close.. As soon as he went off Carlton began to halve the clearances, whereas up until then we were killing them.

2. Bont draws opposition players to him, we need to exploit our resulting "free" players better. Particularly in the forward line.

3. Sunday replays are great. To all our disgruntled supporters I suggest you watch the game again, without the stress and emotion of a real time game. You will see things you never notice live, and appreciate our players efforts so much more.

Anyone who thinks that the players weren't putting in should have a look at how many of our blokes were flat out after the siren blew to end the game. I make a point of counting how many players are on their haunches or plain old laying on the ground at the end of a game and I havent counted that many for a long time.

Carlton threw everything they had to hand at us (yes, including the kitchen sink) and we came out of top.

[bornadog]

webb has certainly not been given the chances afforded many other players who have not played as well. He hasn’t had more than 2 consecutive games in the last 3 years. Couldn’t get a game after best on ground performances in vfl.

We have just heard that Gardner will get another game , after 3 possessions, after a poor performance against West Coast. Wouldn’t happen to Webb.

He has played 24 games and only averaged 11 disposals a game.

[Danjul]

He has played 24 games and only averaged 11 disposals a game.

Richards was given 16 consecutive games with an 11- possessions average.

Webb could not get more than two in a row.

He was dropped after 15 possessions in a game last year , and again after 14 and a goal against Adelaide when the team scored only two. Disgraceful treatment.

and that’s not criticising Richards.

[Bulldog4life]

1. Tim English's tap work was a vast improvement. His around the ground efforts continue to impress and I loved his forward work.

2. A win is a win is a win.

3. Pat Lipinski played his best game...according to Bevo. Shows what a stint in the VFL can do learning new tricks.

[Danjul]

1. Tim English's tap work was a vast improvement. His around the ground efforts continue to impress and I loved his forward work.

2. A win is a win is a win.

3. Pat Lipinski played his best game...according to Bevo. Shows what a stint in the VFL can do learning new tricks.

I agree, but what new tricks? I think he played nearly as well in a few games last year. He has some talent.

[Bulldog4life]

I agree, but what new tricks? I think he played nearly as well in a few games last year. He has some talent.

Learning to play in and under to add to his outside work.

[bornadog]

Richards was given 16 consecutive games with an 11- possessions average.

Webb could not get more than two in a row.

He was dropped after 15 possessions in a game last year , and again after 14 and a goal against Adelaide when the team scored only two. Disgraceful treatment.

and that’s not criticising Richards.

Richards showed something in all his games, Webb didn't. Disgraceful treatment, really??? :rolleyes:

[Danjul]

Richards showed something in all his games, Webb didn't. Disgraceful treatment, really??? :rolleyes:


I certainly think so.

The previous year , 2017, he got 2 consecutive games against West Coast and Geelong.

He had the same number of possessions as Clay Smith and kicked more goals. In my opinion that is showing something.

Naturally he was dropped.

Against West Coast that’s 2 goals out of a team total of 8. in my opinion that is showing something.

[chef]

I dont think theres any doubt certain footballers get more of a chance than others with Bevo. He has his favourites.

[bornadog]

I certainly think so.

The previous year , 2017, he got 2 consecutive games against West Coast and Geelong.

He had the same number of possessions as Clay Smith and kicked more goals. In my opinion that is showing something.

Naturally he was dropped.

Against West Coast that’s 2 goals out of a team total of 8. in my opinion that is showing something.

Well I see it differently, so we will agree to disagree.

[bornadog]

I dont think theres any doubt certain footballers get more of a chance than others with Bevo. He has his favourites.

You don't know that, it is just a perception.

[chef]

You don't know that, it is just a perception.

Its an observation and opinion.

[Danjul]

Its an observation and opinion.

Widely held.

[bornadog]

Widely held.

By who?

[chef]

By who?

I guess on here.

You just need to read the ins and out threads or gameday ones to see it.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

1, Libba makes us a far better side. Interesting the first half we set up more like our best kids stay on ball. Wingers just stay out and run the lines.

2, We miss Morris. He would have taken Curnow and taken the pressure of Cordy. The back six just need his leadership

3, We have done serous talent on the list. We just need to play In position and be well coached.

[AshMac]

I think Daniel is having an outstanding season overall. He's now our go to in tough defensive situations because of his decision making and elite ability to execute (most of the time). He gets it right more than he gets in wrong - more often than not under intense pressure. It is still infuriating when he kicks it relatively free from pressure directly to an opposition player 35 out directly in front of goal, but take the downs with the ups.

[AutoFill]

By who?
Me for one. Pretty obvious I would have thought.

[Flamethrower]

I am sure Bevo has his favourites as all coaches do....
- those that follow team rules.
- those that keep to team structures.
- those that don't go kick chasing and allow their opponent to be free to hurt the team going the other way.
- those that listen to instructions and then execute them to the best of their ability
- those that give full effort 100% of the time

I am continually amazed at how many fans just use the superficial statistics like kicks and handballs to judge players. They play such a small part in determining the outcome of games.

[Danjul]

I am sure Bevo has his favourites as all coaches do....
- those that follow team rules.
- those that keep to team structures.
- those that don't go kick chasing and allow their opponent to be free to hurt the team going the other way.
- those that listen to instructions and then execute them to the best of their ability
- those that give full effort 100% of the time

I am continually amazed at how many fans just use the superficial statistics like kicks and handballs to judge players. They play such a small part in determining the outcome of games.

Thanks for this list of what gets players selected. It enlightens me.

Now I understand how Gardner will get a game after 3 possessions and how Boyd, for example, was selected after some very low counts.

Now I understand why (as I mentioned earlier) Roberts was dropped after what I thought was a good game and 8 others had less of the ball (Trengove had 4 possessions that day - all handballs). No criticism of Trengove, he is very important to the team now.

It also clarifies an understanding of why the club consistently ends the home and away part of the season below where it was the year before. (6,7,10,14?)

When I sit watching games unfold I will finally understand what I am observing. I might even be able to explain it to others around me.

[jeemak]

Thanks for this list of what gets players selected. It enlightens me.

Now I understand how Gardner will get a game after 3 possessions and how Boyd, for example, was selected after some very low counts.

Now I understand why (as I mentioned earlier) Roberts was dropped after what I thought was a good game and 8 others had less of the ball (Trengove had 4 possessions that day - all handballs). No criticism of Trengove, he is very important to the team now.

It also clarifies an understanding of why the club consistently ends the home and away part of the season below where it was the year before. (6,7,10,14?)

When I sit watching games unfold I will finally understand what I am observing. I might even be able to explain it to others around me.

You're not letting this Roberts thing go are you? You also realise we won the flag and more home and away games in 2016 than we did the year prior, right?

Flamethrower has given you criteria coaches could use as an alternative to possessions. It might be helpful to acknowledge those as possible reasons some players get selected ahead of others, and debate their merits.

[ratsmac]

I am sure Bevo has his favourites as all coaches do....
- those that follow team rules.
- those that keep to team structures.
- those that don't go kick chasing and allow their opponent to be free to hurt the team going the other way.
- those that listen to instructions and then execute them to the best of their ability
- those that give full effort 100% of the time

I am continually amazed at how many fans just use the superficial statistics like kicks and handballs to judge players. They play such a small part in determining the outcome of games.

100%. Out of 120 minutes of footy a high possession player who gets the ball 30 times would be lucky to have the ball in his hands for just 1 of those 120 minutes (longer if they are having a set shot I suppose), so what is that player doing for the other 119 minutes? Coaches are looking at what players doing (a) when they don't have the ball (b) their team has the ball and (c) when the opposition has the ball. When they get these things right they are going a long way to being a coaches fav and getting a game. The fringe benefit is they will probably become a good footballer in the meantime.

So yes sometimes it seems players might get more of a fair go than others, but we don't know what KPI's are set for each individual player.

[Danjul]

You're not letting this Roberts thing go are you? You also realise we won the flag and more home and away games in 2016 than we did the year prior, right?

Flamethrower has given you criteria coaches could use as an alternative to possessions. It might be helpful to acknowledge those as possible reasons some players get selected ahead of others, and debate their merits.

I am not sure you read the bold part carefully. Kicks and handballs play such a small part in determining the results???

I can’t believe anyone thinks that. And

1. most of the premiership team was built by a previous group. They won 29 games in 2015/2016.

2. we have lost twice as many home and away games as we have won since the bye in 2017. Put another way, our success rate has halved and we have been beaten by lower quality opponents.

3. And now we are relieved to beat the bottom team by 3 points, because we were humiliated in the previous three games .

Give me something that explains why the present leadership took us from premiership to cellar dwellers in such a short time.

oh, you have. That ridiculous list.

[jeemak]

I am not sure you read the bold part carefully. Kicks and handballs play such a small part in determining the results???

I can’t believe anyone thinks that. And

1. most of the premiership team was built by a previous group. They won 29 games in 2015/2016.

2. we have lost twice as many home and away games as we have won since the bye in 2017. Put another way, our success rate has halved and we have been beaten by lower quality opponents.

3. And now we are relieved to beat the bottom team by 3 points, because we were humiliated in the previous three games .

Give me something that explains why the present leadership took us from premiership to cellar dwellers in such a short time.

oh, you have. That ridiculous list.

Yep, the team and list was inherited, the current coaching team got it to a flag and it has been in a state of flux since then and is now rebuilding.

We have done the reasons why we have struggled in the years since to death, you seem to based on what you've stated in this thread think it's largely because we're not selecting players based on possessions. That's fine, though if I was you I'd be really cautious of calling other people's opinions or reasonings ridiculous on an open forum.

Ratsmac elaborates on Flamethrower's point really well, it would be wise of you to open your mind and consider what each of these posters is attempting to communicate.

[Danjul]

Yep, the team and list was inherited, the current coaching team got it to a flag and it has been in a state of flux since then and is now rebuilding.

We have done the reasons why we have struggled in the years since to death, you seem to based on what you've stated in this thread think it's largely because we're not selecting players based on possessions. That's fine, though if I was you I'd be really cautious of calling other people's opinions or reasonings ridiculous on an open forum.

Ratsmac elaborates on Flamethrower's point really well, it would be wise of you to open your mind and consider what each of these posters is attempting to communicate.

Sorry for the word ridiculous.

[Dry Rot]

1. The Daniel backline experiment was fun while it lasted

2. Cordy is not a KPD

3. We are playing some dud/cooked players who hopefully will not not be with us next year eg Dickson, Dale.

[Ghost Dog]

1. The Daniel backline experiment was fun while it lasted

2. Cordy is not a KPD

3. We are playing some dud/cooked players who hopefully will not not be with us next year eg Dickson, Dale.

Agree about CD. Gave up some key goals that made my eyes water. Is at times kicking when he should be hand balling.
Not sure about Tinder King. I thought Tory worked pretty hard. Didn't have a great day, but every time I saw him off ball, going for it. He's that kind of player who everyone will write off, then come out and kick a bag. Late career Gia was a bit like that.
Dale on the other hand, just seems a little prone to doing clever things that don't work out. I could use one less Bailey in the side anyway. I'm an old man and it confuses me.

[Ghost Dog]

I dont think theres any doubt certain footballers get more of a chance than others with Bevo. He has his favourites.

Yeah. Roarke Smith seemed to jump the queue a fair bit IIRC, or is this wrong?

[Ozza]

1. Carlton seem to be a team we don't match up overly well with. Even when we were playing far better (2015/16) - we never really have gotten a hold of them.

2. There is a serious case for Dunks to be made Vice Captain when Bontempelli becomes captain next year.

3. Lipinski's hands are as clean as anyone, he's a one grab player.

[Bullies]

The problem with Daniel and Cordy is they are put in situations where they are not able to succeed. Daniel (my favourite player) can kick accurately over 40 metres, but that doesn’t get the ball far enough from opposition goal even with a 20 run. If the ball goes to a contest it can spill back into the 50 metre arc and the opposition gets a shot at goal. And it often does spill when we have such a short backline. We need a better plan for restarting play. We also need some other plans too. I disagree. It is the little "cute" kicks Daniel does that creates the turnovers and catches us out. He also runs around in circles meaning the guys on the lead are left flat footed or covered by the time he kicks. He needs to give off at first option.

[Ozza]

1. The Daniel backline experiment was fun while it lasted

2. Cordy is not a KPD

3. We are playing some dud/cooked players who hopefully will not not be with us next year eg Dickson, Dale.

At the half way point of the year, plenty of football commentators have Caleb Daniel in their All Australian half back line.

Pretty harsh commentary on Dickson also, one of our best finals players in my life time, kicked 2 goals and had 7 score involvements on Saturday night.

[Mofra]

I disagree. It is the little "cute" kicks Daniel does that creates the turnovers and catches us out. He also runs around in circles meaning the guys on the lead are left flat footed or covered by the time he kicks. He needs to give off at first option.
... if there is an option.

There are times he has to hold the ball as there are no options. Simply blazing away in the modern game means a turnover which is the no 1 source for scores.
At times we need harder working players up the ground, which is why I am a little mystified by Gardner automatically getting another game.
Forget his stats, how many contests did he get to? How many leads did he create? For mine that is the worrying element of his game, not being brushed aside by Casbault easily for just getting 3 touches. Being a KPF is a tough gig (especially early in your career) but is his actual effort and effect enough? He hasn't even played as a full time forward at VFL level.

[bornadog]

... if there is an option.

There are times he has to hold the ball as there are no options. Simply blazing away in the modern game means a turnover which is the no 1 source for scores.
At times we need harder working players up the ground, which is why I am a little mystified by Gardner automatically getting another game.
Forget his stats, how many contests did he get to? How many leads did he create? For mine that is the worrying element of his game, not being brushed aside by Casbault easily for just getting 3 touches. Being a KPF is a tough gig (especially early in your career) but is his actual effort and effect enough? He hasn't even played as a full time forward at VFL level.

Gardner needs more time in the VFL and also needs to build up his strength. I would be dropping him this week to work on his fitness and strength and also setting him up for one role, ie either back or forward.

[The bulldog tragician]

Gardner needs more time in the VFL and also needs to build up his strength. I would be dropping him this week to work on his fitness and strength and also setting him up for one role, ie either back or forward.

Gardner getting another game is an example of feeling the clubs messaging is very confusing. Him leapfrogging into the team and now being guaranteed another game is hard to understand unless the message is completely and only about rebuilding. It is the same with Lewis young’s prolonged stint at Footscray. Are we saying this is a long view, through which he will come through a better player a la Lipinski. How does it all square with a cameo from out of favour Fletcher Roberts? It just feels all over the shop as to whether we are about ... win every game possible now... or blooding and developing a list for the future.