WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

[Eastdog]

https://m.afl.com.au/news/2019-06-18/match-preview-western-bulldogs-v-collingwood

Match preview: Western Bulldogs v Collingwood
Paul Bastin
Jun 18, 2019 10:11AM

Where and when: Marvel Stadium, Sunday June 23, 3:20pm AEST

TV, radio and online: Click here for broadcast guide

What it means for the Western Bulldogs: Given their upcoming run of fixtures, it's big. They face Collingwood, an interstate trip to Port Adelaide and Geelong in the next three games, so this result could be the difference between breathing new life and momentum into their season or falling irretrievably adrift of the chasing pack outside the eight.

What it means for Collingwood: Five teams currently lead the race to finish top four, and with Geelong setting the pace, pressure remains on third-placed Collingwood and co. Their eight wins in the past nine games started by beating the Bulldogs and they need to keep the ball rolling.

The stat: Collingwood star ruckman Brodie Grundy won the hitout count 60-6 against Tim English in round four this season. The All Australian monstered his more inexperienced opponent and in doing so had the highest percentage of hitouts in a game during the AFL era.

The match-up: Marcus Bontempelli v Scott Pendlebury

Both are stars, both are born leaders, both are left-footers, both find time and space like few others. The similarities between Bontempelli (14th in the Official AFL Player Ratings) and Pendlebury (25th) are evident. If either gets the upper hand, their side will be well on the way to a win.

It’s a big week for: Josh Dunkley

The Bulldogs' midfielder re-signed with the club for a further three years on Tuesday and has set a remarkable standard in the past six weeks, averaging 32.5 disposals to provide another dimension in the middle. A career-best 41 touches last week against Carlton alerted many to his rapid rise, and now arguably the premier midfield group in the competition awaits as his latest challenge.

Big call: Dunkley gets leather poisoning again with 40-plus disposals.

Prediction: Collingwood by 12 points

[chef]

Pies by 54
BOG Dunkley
First Goal Naughty

[bornadog]

Dogs by 19
First Goal: Lloyd
BOG: The Bont

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Dogs by 4 points
BOG McLean (replacing Libba)
1st Goal Suckers

[bornadog]

Not sure if anyone listens to these each week. Normally hosted by Bob.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5he6UXvLnc

[Twodogs]

Us be 49 points
Schache first goal
the Bont BOG.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Dogs by 23
First Goal: Schache
BOG: Suckling

[Eastdog]

Dogs by 2 points in another thriller
First Goal: Sam Lloyd to get our first
Best On Ground: Bont to have a great impact

[Eastdog]

Not sure if anyone listens to these each week. Normally hosted by Bob.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5he6UXvLnc

Thanks BAD. Yeah I watch them.

[Eastdog]

Will be good to be in my reserved seat again being a home game and to catch up with the people around me. Haven’t been in there for a month now Round 10.

[Rocket Science]

Oh man, I applaud the Puddy 'gotta support the team' vibes but strewth you're an ambitious lot.

Pies by 47
BOG : Hunter
First major : Lloyd

I hope the brains trust in here is right and I'm full of shit.

[Eastdog]

Oh man, I applaud the Puddy 'gotta support the team' vibes but strewth you're an ambitious lot.

Pies by 47
BOG : Hunter
First major : Lloyd

I hope the brains trust in here is right and I'm full of shit.

I genuinely give us a big chance. The Pies have been a little shaky and some of their wins in recent weeks. Will be a big test for us but we are a chance.

[azabob]

I genuinely give us a big chance. The Pies have been a little shaky and some of their wins in recent weeks. Will be a big test for us but we are a chance.

What does your brother think?

[Eastdog]

What does your brother think?

He wouldn’t be taking this game easy as a Pies fan.

[Twodogs]

Oh man, I applaud the Puddy 'gotta support the team' vibes but strewth you're an ambitious lot.

Pies by 47
BOG : Hunter
First major : Lloyd

I hope the brains trust in here is right and I'm full of shit.


Years ago my dear departed father proudly told me that he had picked 6 winners (back when there were 6 games a week) in the pool at work. We had lost that weekend and I shot back with "was the prize 30 pieces of silver?" and managed to get out before the meaning became clear in his head and "the *!*!*!*!ing WHAT?" came out.

The actor who played David Puddy trotted out the colours at a hockey match during the season just gone. Of course he totally got into what he was doing and forgot about the fact that he was standing/walking around on ice and went over flat on his face as he was exiting the arena. He did bounce straight back up again though.

[Rocket Science]

Years ago my dear departed father proudly told me that he had picked 6 winners (back when there were 6 games a week) in the pool at work. We had lost that weekend and I shot back with "was the prize 30 pieces of silver?" and managed to get out before the meaning became clear in his head and "the *!*!*!*!ing WHAT?" came out.

The actor who played David Puddy trotted out the colours at a hockey match during the season just gone. Of course he totally got into what he was doing and forgot about the fact that he was standing/walking around on ice and went over flat on his face as he was exiting the arena. He did bounce straight back up again though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rN1CDokeSw

In hindsight it's the perfect metaphor for being wedded to this bloody club.

What else can you do but just keep getting back up.

[G-Mo77]

These are the kind of games we do pretty well in. Not expected to win and playing a much superior opposition. I don't think we'll win but I think we'll get close enough to be asking what ifs.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

I’m going to the VFL first - 11am Whitten Oval

[Eastdog]

I’m going to the VFL first - 11am Whitten Oval

Look forward to the reports on the VFL game day thread.

[Eastdog]

https://www.metrotrains.com.au

AFL Round 14
Western Bulldogs v Collingwood
Sunday 23 June, 3.20pm, Marvel Stadium

EXTRA SERVICES

We’re running extra trains to get you to and from the game.

Before, to Southern Cross Station
Mernda, departing 1.40pm
Glen Waverley, departing 1.57pm
Greensborough, departing 2.02pm
Sunbury, departing 2.02pm

After, departing Southern Cross Station
Greensborough, departing 6.09pm and 6.13pm Platform 9
Glen Waverley, departing 6.10pm Platform 10
Sunbury, departing 6.12pm Platform 11
Mernda, departing 6.16pm and 6.25pm Platform 9

Plan your journey at ptv.vic.gov.au or call 1800 800 007.


KEY INFORMATION

From 8.20pm Saturday to last train Sunday
Saturday 22 June - Sunday 23 June 2019
Buses replace trains between Newport and Werribee, while level crossing removal works take place.
Please allow an extra 40 minutes.
To check the bus frequency, click here.

Bicycles, surfboards and dogs are not allowed on train replacement buses.
To check the location of the train replacement bus stops, click here.
Plan your journey at ptv.vic.gov.au or call 1800 800 007.

KEY INFORMATION

From 9pm Friday to last train Sunday
Friday 21 June - Sunday 23 June 2019
Buses replace trains between South Yarra and Sandringham, while maintenance works takes place.
Please allow an extra 45 minutes.
To check the bus frequency, click here.
To check the location of the train replacement bus stops, click here.

Bicycles, surfboards and dogs are not allowed on train replacement buses.
Plan your journey at ptv.vic.gov.au or call 1800 800 007.

KEY INFORMATION

9.33am to 7.12pm each day
Saturday 22 June - Sunday 23 June 2019
Trains run direct to and from Caulfield Station.
From City, 10.23am to 7.03pm
Take a Cranbourne or Pakenham train to Caulfield Station and change to a Frankston train.
To City, 9.33am to 6.25pm
Change to a Cranbourne or Pakenham train at Caulfield Station.
Plan your journey at ptv.vic.gov.au or call 1800 800 007.

[1eyedog]

The Pies by 6 goals
Macrae BOG
Schache the first but he's come into a baptism of fire with Howe and Moore to content with.

[Bulldog4life]

The Tri Colours by 5 points
Bont BOG
Naughty Fist Goal

[GVGjr]

I still like our underdog status for today's game.

Dogs by 9 points, Lloyd first goal and Hunter BOG

[GVGjr]

Who do you think gets the job on De Goey? For me it has to be Easton Wood

[Twodogs]

Who do you think gets the job on De Goey? For me it has to be Easton Wood

It starts and finishes with Easton Wood. Good luck on your 150th Easton because you have got DeGoey and you can help win the game for us.

[Bulldog Joe]

Unable to get to the game today due to some family commitments.

It is a winnable game and I like the selected side.

Come on Dogs. Make it Happen!!!

[bornadog]

Who do you think gets the job on De Goey? For me it has to be Easton Wood

perfect match up

[Mantis]

Bailey Williams forward, Roarke on a wing.. I give up.

[Rocket Science]

Quality umpiring.

[Mantis]

Has Hunter ever played midfield before?

[Bullies]

Surely our skills coach doesn't get paid

[kruder]

Need to get Hunter out of the centre ASAP. Winning clearance is our only chance of winning and Hunter isn't a clearance player pretty simple stuff.

[Rocket Science]

Wot is happening.

Better signs from Richards & Schache I'll say that much.

[Vred]

Schache actually playing like he wants to keep his spot, good to see

[bulldogtragic]

Agreed. Richards giving us good use, and Schache must've taken Gardner playing ahead of him to heart.

[chef]

Good quarter keep it up.

[GVGjr]

Bailey Williams forward, Roarke on a wing.. I give up.

R. Smith and Richards on wings were part of the early plan. They are trying to out a bit of work into Sidebottom

[Vred]

Fingers crossed that bad Daniels turnover was the last one for the game

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Fantastic effort from our guys, if not perfect execution. If we can do anything to fix up the clearance situation we're going to push the Filth all the way. If we can't, then they'll grind us down, because you can bet they will tighten up on their work to ensure they don't allow us the easy transition out of defense for the next 3 Qtrs.

Good to see Schache and Richards clearly take on board some feedback as to what they need to bring as AFL footballers. Richards has been very dangerous forward of centre, and for the first time in a while I'm seeing Schache show some urgency, and repeat efforts when he's on the deck too to try and halve a contest.

[Funke disco]

Richards has been great. Just need to show a 4 quarter effort

[G-Mo77]

It looked like Collingwood by how much early on but good fight back and finish to the quarter. I'm concerned about getting exposed for height down back but hopefully team defence can hold up over the next 3 quarters.

[Mantis]

R. Smith and Richards on wings were part of the early plan. They are trying to out a bit of work into Sidebottom

Richards has been good on his wing.. Roarke has been horrid on his side.

Neither are lining up on Sidebottom.

[Rocket Science]

Encouraging first quarters then clocking off for the day is right in our wheelhouse this year.

Lets put that to bed shall we.

[Mantis]

Macrae would be the worst sniper ever.. simply refuses to pull the trigger!

[NoseBleed]

10 minutes with no score in the 2nd? I'm on a plane coming back to melb with only enough internet to get score updates. Has it turned into an arm wrestle all of a sudden?

[Rocket Science]

I wish we respected the pill a bit more when presented with scoring opportunities, and by we I mean Suckling.

[jeemak]

So bloody frustrating and wasteful with our snapping at goal...……….drop punts fellas.

[lemmon]

Naughton should be taking a couple of hundred shots at goal a week. His routine looks negligible.

And it's a 12 point turnaround

[G-Mo77]

Classic Bulldog quarter here. Just destroying their opponents but absolutely zilch on the scoreboard.

[macca]

Naughton should be taking a couple of hundred shots at goal a week. His routine looks negligible.

And it's a 12 point turnaround

Miss shot by naughton and down the other end it goes for a goal by Degoey. Please fix our kicking

[Rocket Science]

Nice late goal but for all the pointing in here at our volume of forward entries this year, that half-hearted, lob-and-hope example from Macrae right there sums up far too many of them.

[jeemak]

Apart from some of our kicking this is really good from us.

More positives than negatives, our pressure on them is outstanding as is our willingness to play to our strengths and move the ball with a bit of pace and dare.

[GVGjr]

Hiw many errors has Sidebottom made?

[bulldogtragic]

We should've been 4-5 goals up that quarter with such dominance. Poor decision making and execution, and poor goal kicking do us again.

[kruder]

Bulldog intensity is there it's nice to see. Just wish our forwards would come at the footy more, we are just so stagnant, we need to clear the space infront of Naughty/Schache they need room to move. Lloyd and Sucking need to have a chat, they have burnt each other a few times in the last few weeks it's costing us.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

This is a really intriguing game. Colingwood clearly have our measure at stoppages right now, but for all the clearance dominance, they're not getting too much easy one on one's inside 50. And conversely we are transitiong brilliantly from our defensive 50.
JJ has been really back to his best recently. Loving his game.
Roarke Smith, still looks shaky with his execution and decision making, but I'm loving his intent and repeat efforts.

If we win this I have a feeling it will be a nail biter, as I just don't see us taking enough opportunities to put Collingwood away.

[whythelongface]

Apart from some of our kicking this is really good from us.

More positives than negatives, our pressure on them is outstanding as is our willingness to play to our strengths and move the ball with a bit of pace and dare.

Agree definitely more positives just wish we knew how to nail an opposition.

[merantau]

Bailey Smith’s second effort was excellent- Dicko goals. We are killing this mob everywhere- except on the board.

[Jeanette54]

All our "ins" are contributing, good to see. I think Ed Richards is trying to show us that he belongs in the ones, and should not be dropped again.

I love both our pressure and the run from the backline.

Now all we need is to start converting our scoring opportunities.

[GVGjr]

Great arm wrestle. It could be the battle of the fittest in the last quarter

[Vred]

All our "ins" are contributing, good to see. I think Ed Richards is trying to show us that he belongs in the ones, and should not be dropped again.

I love both our pressure and the run from the backline.

Now all we need is to start converting our scoring opportunities.

this.
I feel after what I’ve seen this game that Ed should always be in our best 22.

[chef]

this.
I feel after what I’ve seen this game that Ed should always be in our best 22.

He did need to be dropped though.

[Jeanette54]

Bailey Smith is becoming a bit of a sure bet when the hardball needs to be won. Quite an achievement for one so young.

[Rocket Science]

Howe done for the day with a calf, FWIW.

[Rocket Science]

Keep pissing away set shots. I'm sure it'll be fine.

[Mantis]

That’s not good enough.. he’s running out of chances.

[KT31]

Seriously the boundary umpire through that to advantage, should have been rethrown in.

[Rocket Science]

Absolutely MORONIC from Suckling.

[Mantis]

Just a total disregard for the most valuable skill.

[Mantis]

Piss away easy shots and they go straight down the other end for a goal.. I’m almost done with this.

[jeemak]

I am so angry with our attitude towards goal kicking. It is completely buggering up my watching experience.

[Bullies]

That’s not good enough.. he’s running out of chances. How Roarke Smith is considered a better option than Toby is a joke

[DOG GOD]

What exactly is r.smith offering this team?

[kruder]

Why is Cordy always 15m from a player? He really needs to go back to the VFL has lost all confidence.

[DOG GOD]

Kicking the game away as usual

[Rocket Science]

Just a total disregard for the most valuable skill.

Dead set idiot let 20 seconds elapse with the ball on the ground and not once facing the goals he was about to kick at.

Umpire: "That's twenty seconds gone Matthew. TWENTY SECONDS"

Ahhh shit, umm, alright better hurriedly chuck it on the boot.

[Bullies]

Our goal kicking is a disgrace

[DOG GOD]

To be honest, the body language of certain players kicking for goal is below school level...terrible to watch. You’re paid in excess of $300k, at least learn how to kick the football properly.

[DOG GOD]

Can we actually tackle any opposition player standing upright? We just get constantly brushed off or refuse to grab the arm.

[jeemak]

Our players clearly don't have backs....

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

31 to 15, clearances. 9 to 2 this quarter.

[chef]

Same old story. Goal kicking killing us.

[Mantis]

Dead set idiot let 20 seconds elapse with the ball on the ground and not once facing the goals he was about to kick at.

Umpire: "That's twenty seconds gone Matthew. TWENTY SECONDS"

Ahhh shit, umm, alright better hurriedly chuck it on the boot.

He’s too cool for school.

[Funke disco]

Our pressure is off. They are one rotation down so lets hope they fatigue

[kruder]

The pressure is gone. Gee lloyd is a hog.

[chef]

Well thats it, we tried for a half and a bit but we are just so shithouse at scoring and it'll cost another game.

[Vred]

And here comes the loss :mad:

[KT31]

The pressure is gone. Gee lloyd is a hog.

Hard to sustain for long periods, but they haven't given up.

[lemmon]

We're clearly short an inside mid with Libba out and it's showing in the clearance stats . McLean should have played

[bulldogtragic]

Well thats it, we tried for a half and a bit but we are just so shithouse at scoring and it'll cost another game.

Look at the bright side, no ones going to fix it. Well, it's not really a bright side per se.

[GVGjr]

Don't give up on us yet, the first goal of the quarter might be telling

[bulldogtragic]

McLean or Roarke?
McLean or Hunter at the centre bounces?

Thanks selectors.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We're not done.
But we have to come up with a way to minimise the effect of Grundy's dominance at the stoppages. They're getting easier clearances which is resulting in better looks inside 50. Which is allowing them shots on goal instead of the turnovers they were giving us out of their poor inside 50 entries. And given we were getting alot of our scores off the back of our transition out of our defense, that explains now why our scoring opportunities have dried up.

[Topdog]

Still outplaying them, i reckon we win from here

[Jeanette54]

We need to win this, so get proactive.

Trengove into the ruck to wrestle with Grundy, we are loosing too many clearances.

[Rocket Science]

Can we dig in and rally?

Or are we resigned to another heartbreaker liberally perfumed with the stench of lost opportunity?

[chef]

Look at the bright side, no ones going to fix it. Well, it's not really a bright side per se.

Lucky its not a big part of the game.

[Mantis]

Hunter is just so dumb! Switches off, allows Sidebottom to cut inside and off they go!

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Now its tough

[kruder]

Cordy at it again.....

[chef]

We love picking out the Collingwood defenders. So shit in the final third.

[G-Mo77]

That'll probably do it now. Only 17 but we've only kicked that since quarter time.

[Rocket Science]

Getting virtually nothing from too many to pull this off barring something Bontempellian.

[chef]

Cordy at it again.....

Stick a fork in him, hes not a AFL quality footballer.

[lemmon]

Williams has had a really good day. I wanted him dropped last week, but very happy with his work forward of the footy

[KT31]

How can you be held by the leg, directly in front of an umpire and not get a free?

[KT31]

Williams has had a really good day. I wanted him dropped last week, but very happy with his work forward of the footy

Williams been solid, R. Smith looks like a deer in the headlights though.

[jeemak]

Pissing about with the *!*!*!*!ing football in defence is not on. We had so many chances to clear that football then.

[Rocket Science]

Pissing about with the *!*!*!*!ing football in defence is not on. We had so many chances to clear that football then.

Why use one kick when fourteen handballs will do?

[Rocket Science]

Nobody reads our aimless lollipops forward better than Roughy.

Nobody.

[kruder]

Schache inured?

[Mantis]

It’s hard to get enthused by this.. there’s a solid level of effort (which should be a given) and our mids get thousands of touches, but we aren’t fun to watch.

Change needs to occur.

[lemmon]

Naughts has had a dirty day but would love our mids to have more faith in going long to him. He's rarely outmarked and is excellent at ground level.

[Rocket Science]

The best thing about Sunday twilight games is there's very little of the weekend left to stew.

[G-Mo77]

A respectable loss as expected.

[chef]

6 more scoring shots. We are our own worst enemy .

[jeemak]

Well with a bit of scoreboard pressure earlier in the game we could have won that.

Sure, as soon as a goal is kicked the ball goes back to the centre and an area the Pies were dominating, but the pressure scoring creates counts for a lot.

Really disappointing that we continue to be so poor with our goal kicking. The Smith and Suckling misses in the second were disgraceful, but perfect examples of what is wrong with our goal kicking. Both attitude and technique are clear issues and it isn't good enough that professional sportsman can serve that rubbish up.

[Bullies]

Surely Dickson is well and truly cooked. Roarke Smith is nowhere near this level and never has been.

this was lost at selection. Would have been nice having a player like Toby in that forward line.

[Twodogs]

Well with a bit of scoreboard pressure earlier in the game we could have won that.

Sure, as soon as a goal is kicked the ball goes back to the centre and an area the Pies were dominating, but the pressure scoring creates counts for a lot.

Really disappointing that we continue to be so poor with our goal kicking. The Smith and Suckling misses in the second were disgraceful, but perfect examples of what is wrong with our goal kicking. Both attitude and technique are clear issues and it isn't good enough that professional sportsman can serve that rubbish up.

We've put up with it for years and across several coaches. Why give up now?

[Sedat]

It’s hard to get enthused by this.. there’s a solid level of effort (which should be a given) and our mids get thousands of touches, but we aren’t fun to watch.

Change needs to occur.
It's almost as though effort is more than enough for the coaching group.

We lose the same way every time, so either the players are as thick as planks or the coaching group has developed a game plan that is specifically designed to narrowly fail most weeks.

[merantau]

It’s a case of dejavu all over again. So frustrating. We have lost all confidence in kicking for goal from set shots and for just taking a ping. How many times did we turn the ball over in our forward half by trying some dinky kick to a team mate, surrounded by opponents, instead of just having a crack? Naughton has become another Chris Grant in terms of his scraggability. Defenders can safely do anything to him - he’s a free fire zone.
Throwing the ball - it’s allowed these days
Sadly, that’s year over for us I’m afraid. We look to the future now. We need to work out who is going to make it and who isn’t over the next few months. We have shown that we can mix it with good teams - but not for four quarters. Fix that and our goal kicking, get a couple of big mobile defenders and a backup ruckman and we can make the eight in 2020.

[Sedat]

So that is 3 failed seasons in a row with no finals and a coach who is now barely 50% W/L in his career (and much worse in the last 3 years).

I guess Gordo will just give him and his motley crue of assistants another 2-3 year extension for shits and giggles

[bornadog]

So that is 3 failed seasons in a row with no finals and a coach who is now barely 50% W/L in his career (and much worse in the last 3 years).

I guess Gordo will just give him and his motley crue of assistants another 2-3 year extension for shits and giggles
��������

[bulldogtragic]

So that is 3 failed seasons in a row with no finals and a coach who is now barely 50% W/L in his career (and much worse in the last 3 years).

I guess Gordo will just give him and his motley crue of assistants another 2-3 year extension for shits and giggles

Will an early extension of Bevo and keeping the majority of assistants next year look to many like rewarding mediocrity? Yes.

[Sedat]

��������
Whatever it is you've posted, I can't see the format. Not expecting it to be flattering.

All good anyway, we're travelling beautifully at 5-8 after finishing 11-11 and 8-14 in the previous two seasons. Carry on.

[kruder]

So that is 3 failed seasons in a row with no finals and a coach who is now barely 50% W/L in his career (and much worse in the last 3 years).

I guess Gordo will just give him and his motley crue of assistants another 2-3 year extension for shits and giggles

If we get execution right we will be fine Sedat:rolleyes:

[Sedat]

If we get execution right we will be fine Sedat:rolleyes:
Sounds like you're at the presser. That's Bevo's stock standard response to every loss.

[Mofra]

More scoring shots, we lose the game. This is becoming a sadly familiar narrative.

We definitely have the effort just not the finishing ability.

[jeemak]

Whatever it is you've posted, I can't see the format. Not expecting it to be flattering.

All good anyway, we're travelling beautifully at 5-8 after finishing 11-11 and 8-14 in the previous two seasons. Carry on.

2017 was really poor and we should have performed better. Since then we've been rebuilding, and have serious deficiencies on the list.

I look at our personnel and don't really know how we can play differently. If we go slow with the football we'll get creamed on the intercept and numbers back.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as frustrated as anyone, I just don't know how much better we can expect to be without a strong key defender and a couple of developed natural forwards.

There needs to be a change in assistant coaching personnel, perhaps a few different sets of eyes can unlock something different.

[GVGjr]

Whatever it is you've posted, I can't see the format. Not expecting it to be flattering.

All good anyway, we're travelling beautifully at 5-8 after finishing 11-11 and 8-14 in the previous two seasons. Carry on.

Left field question but are we simply missing Monty? Just think we need that hard arse 2IC

[bornadog]

Whatever it is you've posted, I can't see the format. Not expecting it to be flattering.

All good anyway, we're travelling beautifully at 5-8 after finishing 11-11 and 8-14 in the previous two seasons. Carry on.

Sorry the four or five laughing emoticons didn't work from my phone.

[GVGjr]

More scoring shots, we lose the game. This is becoming a sadly familiar narrative.

We definitely have the effort just not the finishing ability.

We play some exhilarating football at times but just lack that polish to hurt the opposition
I'm not sure how we can turn that around but I wouldn't be above getting Akermanis down at the club to work with some of the youngsters during the pre season

[Sedat]

Left field question but are we simply missing Monty? Just think we need that hard arse 2IC
It's a valid question but obviously Gordo and Ameet are very happy with our footy dept structure as they have made minimal changes since the flag and are highly likely to extend contracts within the dept. Would the likes of Sydney, Hawthorn or Geelong do this after such an extended period of failure?

Chris Scott was something of a laughing stock at the end of 2018 for having such a poor finals record since 2012 - at least he makes finals.

[jeemak]

We play some exhilarating football at times but just lack that polish to hurt the opposition
I'm not sure how we can turn that around but I wouldn't be above getting Akermanis down at the club to work with some of the youngsters during the pre season

I don't want that dickhead anywhere near our football club. Agree we need help, but please anyone but him.

[bornadog]

Left field question but are we simply missing Monty? Just think we need that hard arse 2IC

I can tell you now, it was not a coaching issue today, but people are quick to turn on to the coach. I have said it before, we lack some key players that would make the difference.

Collingwood who are a grandfinalist from last year and sitting nicely in second spot, should have lost today, but we wasted our opportunities.

[GVGjr]

I don't want that dickhead anywhere near our football club. Agree we need help, but please anyone but him.

I get its a role of the dice but he was a classy kick both on the run and with set shots. You might be right though

[GVGjr]

I can tell you now, it was not a coaching issue today, but people are quick to turn on to the coach. I have said it before, we lack some key players that would make the difference.

Collingwood who are a grandfinalist from last year and sitting nicely in second spot, should have lost today, but we wasted our opportunities.

Im not having a crack at Bevo in the slightest just looking for ways to support him. A top line 2IC would be a good starting point

[Sedat]

I can tell you now, it was not a coaching issue today, but people are quick to turn on to the coach. I have said it before, we lack some key players that would make the difference.
We lose virtually the same way every time (and often). I would argue there is a strong enough body of evidence to suggest that this is EXACTLY a coaching/game plan issue,.

Over-possession, poor conversion, poor delivery into F50 - it happenes every single loss and has done for 3 years. How can it not fall on the coach and footy dept?

[G-Mo77]

Does anyone know what Daniel's disposal efficiency was, it looked like half of his possessions went to opposition players. Sometimes those TOs stand out more though.

[bornadog]

Im not having a crack at Bevo in the slightest just looking for ways to support him. A top line 2IC would be a good starting point

Yeah I know you are not. I agree we should be turning over assistants more regularly. You only have to look at the Hawks, even when they won premierships, they turned over a few. But today, and this season, it is not about coaches, it;s having the right players.

We as supporters over rate our players because they play for us.

[bornadog]

Does anyone know what Daniel's disposal efficiency was, it looked like half of his possessions went to opposition players. Sometimes those TOs stand out more though.

65.7%, which is a little unusual for him.

[Axe Man]

Does anyone know what Daniel's disposal efficiency was, it looked like half of his possessions went to opposition players. Sometimes those TOs stand out more though.

66%, down on his usual high standard but his good still easily outweighed his bad today.

[Hotdog60]

Daniel had 3 clangers by the stats with a disposal efficacy at 65.7%

[GVGjr]

Yeah I know you are not. I agree we should be turning over assistants more regularly. You only have to look at the Hawks, even when they won premierships, they turned over a few. But today, and this season, it is not about coaches, it;s having the right players.

We as supporters over rate our players because they play for us.

I'm not sure BAD, despite the fact I dont think we have been active enough with our list mangement I think we have a list capable of performing better than we have. Finding the right balance with our player development is hitting the critical stage

[bornadog]

Over-possession, poor conversion, poor delivery into F50 - it happenes every single loss and has done for 3 years. How can it not fall on the coach and footy dept?

That just tells me you haven't been to the footy for a long time, and don't look at that stats at all. We are top two for marks inside 50. Our issue is poor kicking for goal, and defence. We leak too many goals.

[Mantis]

Yeah I know you are not. I agree we should be turning over assistants more regularly. You only have to look at the Hawks, even when they won premierships, they turned over a few. But today, and this season, it is not about coaches, it;s having the right players.

We as supporters over rate our players because they play for us.

Which players in today’s team do we over-rate?

[Hotdog60]

Well I have to say I'm as frustrated and disappointed as the rest off us but in all the gloom we must be doing something right to have more scoring shots than them.
If we finished off the easy set shots it may have been a different story and we would be a happy lot heaping praise.
I wonder if Bevo is having trouble coping with the runner reduction as he spends more time on the bench than when runners had more time on ground.
In the end its 15 playing 2 and our skills are the difference not the endeavour.

[bornadog]

I'm not sure BAD, despite the fact I dont think we have been active enough with our list mangement I think we have a list capable of performing better than we have. Finding the right balance with our player development is hitting the critical stage

It is ok when you don't have injuries, but you need players to come in and cover and we just don't have those players.

Ruck, and a key back are a problem, this very moment. I have no doubt English will be good in the future. I would rather see Trengove helping in the ruck, but who do you put into Fullback? Roberts has been tried, Lew Young has been told to do certain things and doesn't seem to be ready. Does Naughton go back? Our Key big guys are all still very young and not mature.

[merantau]

Goal kicking has been THE big issue since 2016. Fix that and our ladder position improves markedly. But it is not our only issue. We are just doing too many dumb things. Suckling flaffing around and then having to rush his shot for goal was inexcusable. Cordy expecting de Goey to shoot for goal and allowing Read to get 10 metres goal side of him - likewise.
We are reluctant to shoot for goal, we butcher set shots, and very getable snaps, and we bleed goals on turnovers.
We had a great opportunity to win this game and let it slip. I imagine it must be very demoralising for the players.
Right now we need some strong personalities to take a stand or else the next two weeks could be very ugly.

[bornadog]

Which players in today’s team do we over-rate?

I am talking in general, but from today, I think Bailey Williams is over rated.

[Sedat]

That just tells me you haven't been to the footy for a long time, and don't look at that stats at all. We are top two for marks inside 50. Our issue is poor kicking for goal, and defence. We leak too many goals.
How was our stoppage and clearance work today? It might have come as a complete shock but Grundy goes alright with his stoppage work - another 50+ hitouts and 17 to advantage today, and subsequently a large clearance advantage for his team - who could have predicted it?

Grundy has 6 Brownlow votes against us in 2019, courtesy of our coaching group and their stubborn, smart ass attitude.

[chef]

We as supporters over rate our players because they play for us.

And the coaches?

[bornadog]

How was our stoppage and clearance work today? It might have come as a complete shock but Grundy goes alright with his stoppage work - another 50+ hitouts and 17 to advantage today, and subsequently a large clearance advantage for his team - who could have predicted it?

Grundy has 6 Brownlow votes against us in 2019, courtesy of our coaching group and their stubborn, smart ass attitude.

Grundy is the best ruck in the AFL - no surprise. However, normally they are our best asset.

[bornadog]

And the coaches?

Who are you talking about?

[chef]

Who are you talking about?

The guys coaching our team?

Seems like for the third year running we'll be dropping further down the ladder and keep making the same makes over and over again.

The coaches are as much to blame as the players .

[Sedat]

Grundy is the best ruck in the AFL - no surprise. However, normally they are our best asset.
Grundy got destroyed by Gawn last match. Yes he's great but we have allowed him to do as he pleases this season, and it has cost us 8 premiership points. How many more times will Bevo feed English to the wolves and cost us more matches? And how is that good for English's development?

[bornadog]

Grundy got destroyed by Gawn last match. Yes he's great but we have allowed him to do as he pleases this season, and it has cost us 8 premiership points. How many more times will Bevo feed English to the wolves and cost us more matches? And how is that good for English's development?

Who do you suggest plays that role?

[Eastdog]

Disappointed with the result obviously but we matched them very well today. Didn't feel we did too much wrong but at times our field kicking skill level was bad.

Our goal kicking is the major issue. We need to get some people down at the Whitten Oval who can teach our players basic technique in how to do it. 10.13 which is 23 scoring shots to 13.4 17 scoring shots there is the game. If we can fix that will beat more teams.

Wont be playing finals this year unless a miracle happens which is winning 8 out of our last 9 games but with not a good percentage.

[Sedat]

Who do you suggest plays that role?
I've suggested a few weeks previously that English lacks the ruck stoppage craft to be our #1 ruck for extended periods, and the proof this year is very much in the pudding.

IMO Trengove should be our bash and crash no 1 ruck, and English should be used no more than 5-8 mins a qtr as 2nd ruck. English is a great asset in other areas but he is getting absolutely destroyed at the stoppages this season, and it has hurt us significantly.

[bornadog]

I've suggested a few weeks previously that English lacks the ruck stoppage craft to be our #1 ruck for extended periods, and the proof this year is very much in the pudding.

IMO Trengove should be our bash and crash no 1 ruck, and English should be used no more than 5-8 mins a qtr as 2nd ruck. English is a great asset in other areas but he is getting absolutely destroyed at the stoppages this season, and it has hurt us significantly.

Whilst I agree it could work, that leaves us without an experienced backman. I don't think Roberts can hold that position, and Trengove has done so well in the backline. We need Lew Young to come good, but we are relaying on a 20 years old, and if Naughton went back, we will be relying on a 19 year old.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

It is ok when you don't have injuries, but you need players to come in and cover and we just don't have those players.

Ruck, and a key back are a problem, this very moment. I have no doubt English will be good in the future. I would rather see Trengove helping in the ruck, but who do you put into Fullback? Roberts has been tried, Lew Young has been told to do certain things and doesn't seem to be ready. Does Naughton go back? Our Key big guys are all still very young and not mature.

Today was a gutsy effort against one of the top teams. We were thrashed in the ruck with Grundy giving a BOG performance. Our lack of leg speed and inferior disposal continues to be major defects.On the positive side Lipinski and Bailey Smith continue to impress. Both Daniel and Dunkley continue to enjoy stand out years. Schache was a welcome return to the side today. Richards also was a welcome addition and has better skills than some of our more experienced players. Naughton continues to struggle up forward and is needed in defence. Lloyd has been a welcome addition to the team as has been Crozier. Both Macrae and Hunter continue to rack up big possessions but do not use the ball anywhere near good enough. Trengrove would provide a better contest in the ruck which may mean using Naughton and Lew Young as key defenders.

[Twodogs]

Left field question but are we simply missing Monty? Just think we need that hard arse 2IC

The short answer from my POV is yes. Yes is also the long answer. I'm not a great one for being a hard arse just for the sake of it but that skillset is something that is desperately missing from our coaching set up.

[SonofScray]

The question for me now is this: is it talent, or tactics?

We lose in the same way, under the same conditions so frequently. You could set your watch to it. The effort is there, mostly. The margin suggests we can go with teams in a stronger form line. It's something in the coaching/footy dept that isn't quite working. The whole club has the yips.

[Danjul]

Today was a gutsy effort against one of the top teams. We were thrashed in the ruck with Grundy giving a BOG performance. Our lack of leg speed and inferior disposal continues to be major defects.On the positive side Lipinski and Bailey Smith continue to impress. Both Daniel and Dunkley continue to enjoy stand out years. Schache was a welcome return to the side today. Richards also was a welcome addition and has better skills than some of our more experienced players. Naughton continues to struggle up forward and is needed in defence. Lloyd has been a welcome addition to the team as has been Crozier. Both Macrae and Hunter continue to rack up big possessions but do not use the ball anywhere near good enough. Trengrove would provide a better contest in the ruck which may mean using Naughton and Lew Young as key defenders.

Completely agree.

English seemed to have trouble moving freely, is his leg injury not healing properly? If that’s the case we need to plan future ruck play very carefully.

[GVGjr]

It is ok when you don't have injuries, but you need players to come in and cover and we just don't have those players.

Ruck, and a key back are a problem, this very moment. I have no doubt English will be good in the future. I would rather see Trengove helping in the ruck, but who do you put into Fullback? Roberts has been tried, Lew Young has been told to do certain things and doesn't seem to be ready. Does Naughton go back? Our Key big guys are all still very young and not mature.

And yet you were very confident we had enough ruckman and KP players during the draft and trade period and were strong on that point all preseason. When the depth gets tested as it was always likely to happen at some point then it's an issue because of injuries and development.
We seem to fall back on the fact we don't have the cattle after a loss but when we are setting up the list we've rung the right changes.
I don't get it

[GVGjr]

Caleb Daniel started the 3rd and 4th quarters on the bench. I thought it was strange at the time

Can anyone have a guess why we would have done that?

[mjp]

We seem to fall back on the fact we don't have the cattle after a loss but when we are setting up the list we've rung the right changes.
I don't get it

I'm not sure this is the case. Well, for me it isn't.

We coulda/shoulda/woulda won yesterday. Effort was good and we played well. We kept Collingwood to 17x shots on goal (4 per q) which is really, REALLY good going...and on top of that, we kept them to 3 scoring shots in both q2 and q4. Which is quite simply incredible. Our finishing was a tragedy - theirs was almost perfect...and there you have it.

I understand the complaining about the Grundy/English match-up...and I do understand the English/Trengove/Naughton 'switcheroo' that might have helped equalise that contest. But we are really guessing...was it worth a try? Maybe. But as I feel like I have said repeatedly, we all complain about Bevo throwing players around into 'unfamiliar' roles, but then whenever it suits us we want to do exactly that. If Naughton is to be a forward, then shouldn't we just play him in the forward line (the way everyone wanted Boyd just left there and wants Schache left up there?). If we throw him back everytime their is a sniff of 'trouble' (and yep, maybe yesterday was more than a 'SNIFF') then how does that help.

I think we have hitched our wagon to English. He was a high draft pick and the club has invested a lot of time/effort in him. What we are seeing right now is the reason some clubs hate taking developing ruckman with early draft picks - they aren't ready, and WONT be ready...but the only way to get them ready is to play them and to do so will cost games. How many of the top ruckman in the competition were high draft picks who are still at their original club? Grundy? Is that it? Kruezer? Nic Nat? Are those two even considered 'top ruckman' these days? I enjoy the work of Nankervis who was a mid-round pick by the Swans who was then on-traded to Sydney...and by the way, he played as a 19yo in the 2014 National Champs so was behind the curve in terms of his own development. Darcy at Freo is promising - but pretty sure he was a pick in the 20's...who else??? The Giants - with all their access to early picks - never really selected one. We did. Right or wrong, we are stuck with it now and simply must find a way to make it work.

Personally, I am frustrated by the non-selection of Roberts because he seems to provide us with 'structure' (in the form of an anchor) behind the ball...but it is obvious we don't want to play that way and further obvious that the club is prioritising English in the ruck ahead of other developmental elements...the debate about our mid-sizers is going to rage forever but honestly, that (to me) is on the players, not the MC. If the likes of Williams, Smith, Richards, Webb, Dale, Lynch etc want to play, then PLAY BETTER. The reason they are in and out of the side is because their form isn't what it needs to be. Now I know there are going to be those who say 'maybe if they weren't played out of position, they WOULD play better....'. Well, be that as it may, when you are given lemons you can either complain they you can't make apple sauce or just get on with making lemonade. If you are a mid-sized, young (ish) fringe player trying to make your way, well, get a kick. There really isn't much difference in modern footy between playing in a back pocket (which doesn't really exist as a position) and half forward (which doesn't really exist either)...it is all about getting a strong starting point, beating your opponent to the contest and looking to get involved on the outside when your team-mates have the ball. We make excuses for these guys, but I'm pretty confident (aka 100% certain) that Crozier and JJ didn't venture backward of centre as juniors. Bachar Houli thought 'DE FENCE' was the thing that went around the boundary as an 18yo. Syd Stack hadn't played on a man since Auskick when Richmond sent him to half back (and if you are being critical, he STILL hasn't but that's another story).

Yesterday, we had the cattle and played well enough to win. For one of the first times all season, I thought our defensive effort was of an 'acceptable' standard to win (and was the first time in 5-weeks we have kept our opposition under 100 points).

[KT31]

I'm not sure this is the case. Well, for me it isn't.

We coulda/shoulda/woulda won yesterday. Effort was good and we played well. We kept Collingwood to 17x shots on goal (4 per q) which is really, REALLY good going...and on top of that, we kept them to 3 scoring shots in both q2 and q4. Which is quite simply incredible. Our finishing was a tragedy - theirs was almost perfect...and there you have it.

I understand the complaining about the Grundy/English match-up...and I do understand the English/Trengove/Naughton 'switcheroo' that might have helped equalise that contest. But we are really guessing...was it worth a try? Maybe. But as I feel like I have said repeatedly, we all complain about Bevo throwing players around into 'unfamiliar' roles, but then whenever it suits us we want to do exactly that. If Naughton is to be a forward, then shouldn't we just play him in the forward line (the way everyone wanted Boyd just left there and wants Schache left up there?). If we throw him back everytime their is a sniff of 'trouble' (and yep, maybe yesterday was more than a 'SNIFF') then how does that help.

I think we have hitched our wagon to English. He was a high draft pick and the club has invested a lot of time/effort in him. What we are seeing right now is the reason some clubs hate taking developing ruckman with early draft picks - they aren't ready, and WONT be ready...but the only way to get them ready is to play them and to do so will cost games. How many of the top ruckman in the competition were high draft picks who are still at their original club? Grundy? Is that it? Kruezer? Nic Nat? Are those two even considered 'top ruckman' these days? I enjoy the work of Nankervis who was a mid-round pick by the Swans who was then on-traded to Sydney...and by the way, he played as a 19yo in the 2014 National Champs so was behind the curve in terms of his own development. Darcy at Freo is promising - but pretty sure he was a pick in the 20's...who else??? The Giants - with all their access to early picks - never really selected one. We did. Right or wrong, we are stuck with it now and simply must find a way to make it work.

Personally, I am frustrated by the non-selection of Roberts because he seems to provide us with 'structure' (in the form of an anchor) behind the ball...but it is obvious we don't want to play that way and further obvious that the club is prioritising English in the ruck ahead of other developmental elements...the debate about our mid-sizers is going to rage forever but honestly, that (to me) is on the players, not the MC. If the likes of Williams, Smith, Richards, Webb, Dale, Lynch etc want to play, then PLAY BETTER. The reason they are in and out of the side is because their form isn't what it needs to be. Now I know there are going to be those who say 'maybe if they weren't played out of position, they WOULD play better....'. Well, be that as it may, when you are given lemons you can either complain they you can't make apple sauce or just get on with making lemonade. If you are a mid-sized, young (ish) fringe player trying to make your way, well, get a kick. There really isn't much difference in modern footy between playing in a back pocket (which doesn't really exist as a position) and half forward (which doesn't really exist either)...it is all about getting a strong starting point, beating your opponent to the contest and looking to get involved on the outside when your team-mates have the ball. We make excuses for these guys, but I'm pretty confident (aka 100% certain) that Crozier and JJ didn't venture backward of centre as juniors. Bachar Houli thought 'DE FENCE' was the thing that went around the boundary as an 18yo. Syd Stack hadn't played on a man since Auskick when Richmond sent him to half back (and if you are being critical, he STILL hasn't but that's another story).

Yesterday, we had the cattle and played well enough to win. For one of the first times all season, I thought our defensive effort was of an 'acceptable' standard to win (and was the first time in 5-weeks we have kept our opposition under 100 points).

Good post mjp.

[Ozza]

Yes, agree on good post.

Just on Crozier and JJ seeing you mentioned them as 'backs'. I was happy with both again yesterday. Crozier seems to be growing into some leadership down there. I observed him being very instructional and getting us organised down there yesterday - and if he peels off his man to go third (or 5th) up he really commits to it and makes sure he spoils. Earlier in the year (v Freo as an example) - he got a little bit caught between, but he seems to be more decisive now and that comes with experience in playing down there.

On JJ, it just makes a huge difference when he is on the burst creating chances for us.

I hear a lot of JJ criticism around me at the footy (a lot of criticism or general bagging of all our players really...but thats another frustrating story), which I think is really harsh and undervaluing of the impact JJ has with his speed and kicking.

[Danjul]

I'm not sure this is the case. Well, for me it isn't.

We coulda/shoulda/woulda won yesterday.

I understand the complaining about the Grundy/English match-up...and I do understand the English/Trengove/Naughton 'switcheroo' that might have helped equalise that contest. But we are really guessing...was it worth a try? Maybe. But as I feel like I have said repeatedly, we all complain about Bevo throwing players around into 'unfamiliar' roles, but then whenever it suits us we want to do exactly that. If Naughton is to be a forward, then shouldn't we just play him in the forward line (the way everyone wanted Boyd just left there and wants Schache left up there?). If we throw him back everytime their is a sniff of 'trouble' (and yep, maybe yesterday was more than a 'SNIFF') then how does that help.

I think we have hitched our wagon to English. He was a high draft pick and the club has invested a lot of time/effort in him. What we are seeing right now is the reason some clubs hate taking developing ruckman with early draft picks - they aren't ready, and WONT be ready...but the only way to get them ready is to play them and to do so will cost games.

Personally, I am frustrated by the non-selection of Roberts because he seems to provide us with 'structure' (in the form of an anchor) behind the ball...but it is obvious we don't want to play that way and further obvious thather story).


This is a good summary of where we are at. But there is nothing unfamiliar here....

English will be a good ruckman in the future but he can contribute more on the forward line now. His build is more suited to forward play and his struggles in the ruck are removing some of his talents. When he gets the ball his first tendency is to handball, when he is capable of kicking 60 metres, for example .

Naughton is a talented KPP and can succeed at both ends. It makes sense to play him where the match circumstances determine his maximum contribution.

The real problem here is selection decisions have left the team without sensible ruck options. The lack of foresight means when English gets monstered by stronger and more experienced opponents we have chosen to lose the game. (I suspect 4 but others will disagree)

I don’t blame English. It is a matter of how he is developed. Personally I would like to see him as a match winning forward who might become a match winning ruckman.

[bornadog]

Good post mjp.

Ditto.

It's posts by MJP that helps me get through reading WOOF after a loss. Sensible, non emotional (unlike me :D )

I really thought we took it right up to a premiership contender yesterday, and let ourselves down. Collingwood a more experienced, mature team against a young team (yes a young team when KPP are under developed), yet we were so close to winning. We have to stick with these guys, not lose anymore like we have in the past 3 years.

You want to know why we have gone into development mode since the premiership, then tell me if it would make a difference if we had a few of these guys in the team:

2016 games

Where are they now?

Marcus Adams
Brisbane

Shane Biggs
Retired

Matthew Boyd
Retired

Tom Boyd
Retired

Travis Cloke
Retired

Luke Dahlhaus
Geelong

Joel Hamling
Fremantle

Nathan Hrovat
North Melbourne

Bob Murphy
Retired

Liam Picken
Retired

Jack Redpath
Retired

Jordan Roughead
Collingwood

Clay Smith
Retired

Koby Stevens
Retired

Jake Stringer
Essendon

All for different reasons, but the experience loss is tremendous.

[MrMahatma]

I actually thought we played well, and am gutted we lost that. Frustrating that we missed shots and the old “honourable” loss vibe is setting in.

Thought Roarke Smith showed a bit. Had a crack. I’ve never been much of a fan but he attached the ball well and tried a few things.

[ratsmac]

I think the reasons why Bevo won't do the switch-a-roo with Naughton/English/Trengove is because he's looking to the future, he's playing the long game. He has mentioned in his presser a few times about playing players now to build what our long term goal as team will look like. I believe Bevo wants Naughton and English to grind it out and learn off the best opposition to be better players themselves in the long term. If he pulls them out of there positions as soon as the are getting beaten what lessons are there in that.

Yesterday we done enough to win with out too many players thrown around to catch the opposition out, we simply didn't take our chances.

[soupman]

Naughton is a talented KPP and can succeed at both ends. It makes sense to play him where the match circumstances determine his maximum contribution.


Sure if we are desperate but isn't there also merit in keeping him forward as much as possible. If we see him as our long term key forward, which it appears we do, then we should commit to that and give him as much time as possible up there.

I remember many years ago Rocket talking about that game against Adelaide where Darcy kicked 6 goals in about a half of footy and Morris made his debut. He was talking about how everyone was talking about how the move of Darcy forward was a genius move and swung the game, when in fact he had spent the entire game the week prior up there as well as the entire first half for a return of about 1 goal. Nobody was calling it genius at half time of the Adelaide game.

I think Naughton (and all but the best forwards) is kind of the same, he will have quiet games where it seems like he isn't getting involved enough and should be moved around, but the longer he stays up forward the more opportunities he has to have that second half and learn how to impact the game.

Most importantly, if he is down back everytime we are struggling how is he going to learn to bring the game back onto our terms as a forward? It pretty hard to kick a crucial goal to get us back into the contest when you are lining up at CHB.



I don’t blame English. It is a matter of how he is developed. Personally I would like to see him as a match winning forward who might become a match winning ruckman.

This is plain silly.

I have some doubts on English both short and long term as a ruckman, but he has certainly shown he is capable of becoming something fantastic there, if given the time to develop. As a forward though? What has he shown there that Schache or Naughton hasn't? A couple of marks against Carlton? Schache had some good moments in the ruck against Hawthorn, is he now our developing match winning ruck?

Clearly we see English as our gun ruck as early as possible, so why would we a) delay that development in the ruck when we have shown no intention of finding any stop gap to help him out in the meantime and b) change his focus onto a role that he has shown both minimal form in actually being and that will distract him from learning the position he does excel at and when we already have two very highly rated players that we have invested heavily in developing already.

Sorry but English as a "match winning forward" is not a plan I want to get behind.

[Ghost Dog]

Sure if we are desperate but isn't there also merit in keeping him forward as much as possible. If we see him as our long term key forward, which it appears we do, then we should commit to that and give him as much time as possible up there.

I remember many years ago Rocket talking about that game against Adelaide where Darcy kicked 6 goals in about a half of footy and Morris made his debut. He was talking about how everyone was talking about how the move of Darcy forward was a genius move and swung the game, when in fact he had spent the entire game the week prior up there as well as the entire first half for a return of about 1 goal. Nobody was calling it genius at half time of the Adelaide game.

I think Naughton (and all but the best forwards) is kind of the same, he will have quiet games where it seems like he isn't getting involved enough and should be moved around, but the longer he stays up forward the more opportunities he has to have that second half and learn how to impact the game.

Most importantly, if he is down back everytime we are struggling how is he going to learn to bring the game back onto our terms as a forward? It pretty hard to kick a crucial goal to get us back into the contest when you are lining up at CHB.



This is plain silly.

I have some doubts on English both short and long term as a ruckman, but he has certainly shown he is capable of becoming something fantastic there, if given the time to develop. As a forward though? What has he shown there that Schache or Naughton hasn't? A couple of marks against Carlton? Schache had some good moments in the ruck against Hawthorn, is he now our developing match winning ruck?

Clearly we see English as our gun ruck as early as possible, so why would we a) delay that development in the ruck when we have shown no intention of finding any stop gap to help him out in the meantime and b) change his focus onto a role that he has shown both minimal form in actually being and that will distract him from learning the position he does excel at and when we already have two very highly rated players that we have invested heavily in developing already.

Sorry but English as a "match winning forward" is not a plan I want to get behind.

I don't know, English took some good grabs against Carlton. I think he is as good as Shack, despite Shack being up in Brisbane for a while. If the jury is still out on English as a ruckman, then where else do you want him?
If it works, I will get behind him! Just want us to kick straight.

[mjp]

So to summarise Naughton has spent his junior career as a defender - so we should move him back there.
English has spent his junior career as a ruckman - so we should move him to the forward line?

I know it is more complicated than that, but does anyone/everyone understand the continual inconsistency with this stuff? We need to play guys in their best spot - or move them somewhere else - depending on who it is and the state of the game...

It is just craziness.

[bornadog]

So to summarise Naughton has spent his junior career as a defender - so we should move him back there.
English has spent his junior career as a ruckman - so we should move him to the forward line?

I know it is more complicated than that, but does anyone/everyone understand the continual inconsistency with this stuff? We need to play guys in their best spot - or move them somewhere else - depending on who it is and the state of the game...

It is just craziness.

Naughton should stay forward, and English in the ruck, however, would love to see Trengove as the second ruck to help out, BUT, where does he play when he is not in the ruck. At the moment, Trengove is playing good football as the FB, the craft he excelled in at Port - so that doesn't work and we should leave him there. Has had very little goals kicked against him this season.

[Danjul]

I have some doubts on English both short and long term as a ruckman, but he has certainly shown he is capable of becoming something fantastic there, if given the time to develop. As a forward though? What has he shown there that Schache or Naughton hasn't? A couple of marks against Carlton? Schache had some good moments in the ruck against Hawthorn, is he now our developing match winning ruck?

Clearly we see English as our gun ruck as early as possible, so why would we a) delay that development in the ruck when we have shown no intention of finding any stop gap to help him out in the meantime and b) change his focus onto a role that he has shown both minimal form in actually being and that will distract him from learning the position he does excel at and when we already have two very highly rated players that we have invested heavily in developing already.

Sorry but English as a "match winning forward" is not a plan I want to get behind.

English has been a terrible choice as the Number one ruckman. That decision was made before the season started and with no justification. He was struggling in the ruck against strong bodies in the vfl last year.

He has been comprehensively beaten in most games, contributing to some losses. He has broken even in a few. But in None has he taken pressure off the midfielders. He should not be shouldering this responsibility so early in his career. Who didn’t expect Grundy to beat him so badly, we all saw what he did earlier in the year. It is unbelievable that we went into Sunday’s game without a plan B.

It is not English’s fault, he could have had a very successful season as a key forward who helps out for 5 minutes in the ruck each quarter.

His best contributions against North Melbourne were 2 good goals in 10 minutes (looked like a match winner the way he combined with the Bont). Against Carlton he also kicked a couple of goals in a short period of time when others were not getting the score on the board. He is good down low and a nice kick. I see no down side with him at CHF.

[Danjul]

So to summarise Naughton has spent his junior career as a defender - so we should move him back there.
English has spent his junior career as a ruckman - so we should move him to the forward line?

I know it is more complicated than that, but does anyone/everyone understand the continual inconsistency with this stuff? We need to play guys in their best spot - or move them somewhere else - depending on who it is and the state of the game...

It is just craziness.

English has proven that at this stage of his career his best spot is CHF.

But he will not be played there. So against Melbourne, for example, Gawn will do what?

[Ozza]

On Naughton, Bevo has stated that it is much harder to find players with the characteristics of a tall contested marking forward that it is to find a lockdown defender - so while he has Naughton exhibiting these traits, he is going to play him as a forward. So we need to get used to it - and I'm onboard with this logic. I don't care if he makes it easier for Schache to kick goals, or vice versa - as long as someone is doing it each week. I just want them to spend a good stint of games working together to see if they can get it to work well.

For English, this argument being trotted out about him not being a ruckman, I just don't buy it at all. He looks every bit the future gun ruckman we are looking for. Most 21 year old ruckman are playing state league, this kid is good enough to compete well with all bar the absolute top level rucks. Its really only been Grundy and Witts that have handled him this year. English has acquitted himself well in all other games, and even yesterday in getting belted up by the best in the game - he had 9 score involvements and has had more score involvements than his opponent in all bar two games this season, which is an indication of the quality in his game.

[bornadog]

On Naughton, Bevo has stated that it is much harder to find players with the characteristics of a tall contested marking forward that it is to find a lockdown defender - so while he has Naughton exhibiting these traits, he is going to play him as a forward. So we need to get used to it - and I'm onboard with this logic. I don't care if he makes it easier for Schache to kick goals, or vice versa - as long as someone is doing it each week. I just want them to spend a good stint of games working together to see if they can get it to work well.

For English, this argument being trotted out about him not being a ruckman, I just don't buy it at all. He looks every bit the future gun ruckman we are looking for. Most 21 year old ruckman are playing state league, this kid is good enough to compete well with all bar the absolute top level rucks. Its really only been Grundy and Witts that have handled him this year. English has acquitted himself well in all other games, and even yesterday in getting belted up by the best in the game - he had 9 score involvements and has had more score involvements than his opponent in all bar two games this season, which is an indication of the quality in his game.

Spot on Ozza.

We need to be patient with these kids. I said it before, how exciting is our future with these talls in our team. I don't ever remember a Bulldog team with this many tall young potential players with Naughton, Schache, English and Young in the wings.

Let's leave them in their spots, let them learn and go from there.

[Danjul]

On Naughton, Bevo has stated that it is much harder to find players with the characteristics of a tall contested marking forward that it is to find a lockdown defender - so while he has Naughton exhibiting these traits, he is going to play him as a forward. So we need to get used to it - and I'm onboard with this logic. I don't care if he makes it easier for Schache to kick goals, or vice versa - as long as someone is doing it each week. I just want them to spend a good stint of games working together to see if they can get it to work well.

For English, this argument being trotted out about him not being a ruckman, I just don't buy it at all. He looks every bit the future gun ruckman we are looking for. Most 21 year old ruckman are playing state league, this kid is good enough to compete well with all bar the absolute top level rucks. Its really only been Grundy and Witts that have handled him this year. English has acquitted himself well in all other games, and even yesterday in getting belted up by the best in the game - he had 9 score involvements and has had more score involvements than his opponent in all bar two games this season, which is an indication of the quality in his game.

English is tall for his age. But in an AFL club that is not enough. He has more development ahead of him before he is ready for the most important role on the field. He is improving steadily and will continue to do so.

Goldstein also turned in a match winning performance against him , something like 30 possessions and 50 hitouts. Cordy did better in the ruck that day.

English’s score involvement have not come from ruck work, mainly when he has displayed forward craft.

[Ozza]

English has proven that at this stage of his career his best spot is CHF.

But he will not be played there. So against Melbourne, for example, Gawn will do what?

Proven when exactly? Has barely played there - and 2 of his career 5 goals were kicked when playing in the ruck last week.

[Sedat]

For English, this argument being trotted out about him not being a ruckman, I just don't buy it at all. He looks every bit the future gun ruckman we are looking for. Most 21 year old ruckman are playing state league, this kid is good enough to compete well with all bar the absolute top level rucks. Its really only been Grundy and Witts that have handled him this year. English has acquitted himself well in all other games, and even yesterday in getting belted up by the best in the game - he had 9 score involvements and has had more score involvements than his opponent in all bar two games this season, which is an indication of the quality in his game.
So it's 4 games (Grundy x2, Witts and v North/Goldy) where the opposition rucks have monstered English at the stoppages in a close loss. So basically the difference between 5-8 and 9-4. I don't blame English at all - he just doesn't have the ruck craft at stoppages to assist in giving us quality clearances and better looks inside F50. He's a fantastic follower, hence why he gets involved in scoring chains, but at the source he is getting belted too often and very much to his and the team's detriment. It's a massive ask to punish him for 80% ruck time every week, and frankly it is stubbornness and arrogance by Bevo to continue subjecting him to it. Gawn and Grundy weren't rucking big minutes at the same stage of their careers - the only young ruck who did was Josh Fraser, who was cooked by 25.

Hell of a lesson for player and club to learn.

[Bullies]

English is tall for his age. But in an AFL club that is not enough. He has more development ahead of him before he is ready for the most important role on the field. He is improving steadily and will continue to do so.

Goldstein also turned in a match winning performance against him , something like 30 possessions and 50 hitouts. Cordy did better in the ruck that day.

English’s score involvement have not come from ruck work, mainly when he has displayed forward craft. Listening to Rob Harvey from Collingwood he said English was well ahead of where Grundy was at the same stage. We need to remember this isn't going to happen overnight.

[SonofScray]

So it's 4 games (Grundy x2, Witts and v North/Goldy) where the opposition rucks have monstered English at the stoppages in a close loss. So basically the difference between 5-8 and 9-4. I don't blame English at all - he just doesn't have the ruck craft at stoppages to assist in giving us quality clearances and better looks inside F50. He's a fantastic follower, hence why he gets involved in scoring chains, but at the source he is getting belted too often and very much to his and the team's detriment. It's a massive ask to punish him for 80% ruck time every week, and frankly it is stubbornness and arrogance by Bevo to continue subjecting him to it. Gawn and Grundy weren't rucking big minutes at the same stage of their careers - the only young ruck who did was Josh Fraser, who was cooked by 25.

Hell of a lesson for player and club to learn.
That's a good take, I hadn't thought too deeply about it because I am relatively happy with the overall value English is providing us. He is getting chucked to the wolves in a way we never dared with someone like Luke Darcy. The traditional thing would be to squeeze some goals out of him up front and get him going for stints in the ruck. If we could set up that way, I think he and the team would be better served.

[FrediKanoute]

English has proven that at this stage of his career his best spot is CHF.

But he will not be played there. So against Melbourne, for example, Gawn will do what?

I don't think you could say that English has proven anything, and certainly he hasn't proven to be a good CHF. He is tracking fine as a developing ruckman and has gotten better as the year has progressed.

[Danjul]

Listening to Rob Harvey from Collingwood he said English was well ahead of where Grundy was at the same stage. We need to remember this isn't going to happen overnight.

Agree 100%.

My comments are only focused on our lacking of winning now. Trying to win in three years is getting too much attention.

[Ghost Dog]

So it's 4 games (Grundy x2, Witts and v North/Goldy) where the opposition rucks have monstered English at the stoppages in a close loss. So basically the difference between 5-8 and 9-4. I don't blame English at all - he just doesn't have the ruck craft at stoppages to assist in giving us quality clearances and better looks inside F50. He's a fantastic follower, hence why he gets involved in scoring chains, but at the source he is getting belted too often and very much to his and the team's detriment. It's a massive ask to punish him for 80% ruck time every week, and frankly it is stubbornness and arrogance by Bevo to continue subjecting him to it. Gawn and Grundy weren't rucking big minutes at the same stage of their careers - the only young ruck who did was Josh Fraser, who was cooked by 25.

Hell of a lesson for player and club to learn.

Going to be really, really ticked off if he gets injured.

[jeemak]

Going to be really, really ticked off if he gets injured.

It's footy, players get injured, but I wonder what evidence there is to suggest what the danger is in playing ruck as an underdeveloped player relative to some opponents actually is.

Nic Nat has had a shit of a time post maturing, and Kreuzer seems to have always had a shit of a time injury wise. I look at forwards and there's the likes of McCartin and Patton who seem to be in the firing line for different reasons. Going back Fraser as Sedat posted had issues with his body at a young to medium age for a ruck, Luke Darcy copped a knee later in his career - but the game has changed a lot for forwards and rucks in the last ten years.

I think you could make a case that young forwards are sitting ducks for bash and crash wear and tear or injuries given the amount of ground they have to cover and the sheer volume of physical contact they face in lieu of zone defending and multiple aerial challenges they face contest to contest.

Not sure whether English is more exposed playing ruck than he might be elsewhere. It's an interesting discussion and I'd like to understand what type of injuries rucks are more susceptible to these days.

[Ghost Dog]

It's footy, players get injured, but I wonder what evidence there is to suggest what the danger is in playing ruck as an underdeveloped player relative to some opponents actually is.

Nic Nat has had a shit of a time post maturing, and Kreuzer seems to have always had a shit of a time injury wise. I look at forwards and there's the likes of McCartin and Patton who seem to be in the firing line for different reasons. Going back Fraser as Sedat posted had issues with his body at a young to medium age for a ruck, Luke Darcy copped a knee later in his career - but the game has changed a lot for forwards and rucks in the last ten years.

I think you could make a case that young forwards are sitting ducks for bash and crash wear and tear or injuries given the amount of ground they have to cover and the sheer volume of physical contact they face in lieu of zone defending and multiple aerial challenges they face contest to contest.

Not sure whether English is more exposed playing ruck than he might be elsewhere. It's an interesting discussion and I'd like to understand what type of injuries rucks are more susceptible to these days.

Call me an expert. I can use Google.
Posterior Cruciate Ligament
Posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) injuries have earned the colloquial label “ruckman’s curse” due to their prevalence in AFL ruckmen. Opposing ruckmen jump to contest the ball when it is bounced up or thrown in at a stoppage in play.57 The 2 opposing ruckmen will usually run at each other while the ball is in flight, potentially colliding with a flexed knee. The most widely reported mechanism of PCL injury is a fall on the flexed knee with the foot in plantar flexion or direct force blow to the anterior tibia63; however, a ruckman can also collide with a flexed knee while “rucking.”

Dunno I am pretty sure a new player is more at risk of injury than a mature player. But I am no sports scientist.
Anyway if Tim is happy to grind away that's fine with me. Just hope he lasts his career. He looks ok up forward. Not out of his element at all.

[jeemak]

Watching the replay - Q1 Observations

This is almost where the game was lost. We were running at SFA disposal efficiency, a dubious yet unnecessary free kick to Cox and some really poor communication and terrible disposal in the back half in the 3-10 minute mark and we were three goals down just like that. You can't do that against quality like the Pies.

However, we stuck to our knitting and the game plan and positional tactics seemed to bear fruit once we tidied up our disposal - notwithstanding some attention to detail issues from Lloyd, Daniel and English. A good finish from Lippa was needed, the pressure overall was excellent.

I don't know how anyone can say Jacko isn't damaging by foot. Sure he doesn't take the shot as often as he should, but he slices the ground up with his kicking regularly, Richards was really damaging in the same area.

Ben Reid's first goal was scored against Trengove, Roark Smith had a crack in the air in a really good contest running back that saved a gettable shot on goal. The head clash with Smith and Dunkley should have been avoided, if it was there's a fair chance Lippa wouldn't have missed his target and we'd not have had to come back from as far down to even things up at quarter time.

Cracking game of footy thus far.

[jeemak]

Call me an expert. I can use Google.
Posterior Cruciate Ligament
Posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) injuries have earned the colloquial label “ruckman’s curse” due to their prevalence in AFL ruckmen. Opposing ruckmen jump to contest the ball when it is bounced up or thrown in at a stoppage in play.57 The 2 opposing ruckmen will usually run at each other while the ball is in flight, potentially colliding with a flexed knee. The most widely reported mechanism of PCL injury is a fall on the flexed knee with the foot in plantar flexion or direct force blow to the anterior tibia63; however, a ruckman can also collide with a flexed knee while “rucking.”

Dunno I am pretty sure a new player is more at risk of injury than a mature player. But I am no sports scientist.
Anyway if Tim is happy to grind away that's fine with me. Just hope he lasts his career. He looks ok up forward. Not out of his element at all.

You got some Dolmio Grin to back this up? Just interested to know given the AFEL introduced rules to negate these injuries a while back. Cheers.

[bornadog]

The head clash with Smith and Dunkley should have been avoided

I wonder if that head clash effected Smith as he hardly touched the ball for the rest of the day.

[Ozza]

Grundy played 15 games in the ruck as a 20 year old, 19 games as a 21 year old, 21, 20 & 26 the 3 seasons after that, and every game this season.

All scenarios are different, and when English had an injury this year - we were conservative with him and gave him the additional week.

[Mantis]

Watching the replay - Q1 Observations

This is almost where the game was lost. We were running at SFA disposal efficiency, a dubious yet unnecessary free kick to Cox and some really poor communication and terrible disposal in the back half in the 3-10 minute mark and we were three goals down just like that. You can't do that against quality like the Pies.

However, we stuck to our knitting and the game plan and positional tactics seemed to bear fruit once we tidied up our disposal - notwithstanding some attention to detail issues from Lloyd, Daniel and English. A good finish from Lippa was needed, the pressure overall was excellent.

I don't know how anyone can say Jacko isn't damaging by foot. Sure he doesn't take the shot as often as he should, but he slices the ground up with his kicking regularly, Richards was really damaging in the same area.

Ben Reid's first goal was scored against Trengove, Roark Smith had a crack in the air in a really good contest running back that saved a gettable shot on goal. The head clash with Smith and Dunkley should have been avoided, if it was there's a fair chance Lippa wouldn't have missed his target and we'd not have had to come back from as far down to even things up at quarter time.

Cracking game of footy thus far.

For your own sanity give Q2 a miss.

[jeemak]

For your own sanity give Q2 a miss.

I actually watched it, and was not really sure what I could constructively post about it! Well, was actually too tired.

It was a real exercise in frustration, with some really poor decisions and execution in front of goal from players who should know and do better.

Once again the effort was there, we set up the ground well and played as a team, but broke down regularly because of pressure and some skill issues.

[Danjul]

Grundy played 15 games in the ruck as a 20 year old, 19 games as a 21 year old, 21, 20 & 26 the 3 seasons after that, and every game this season.

All scenarios are different, and when English had an injury this year - we were conservative with him and gave him the additional week.

Is English carrying an injury?

There was some complication with bleeding into the tissue and it is heavily strapped. He wasn’t moving freely at times.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

So it's 4 games (Grundy x2, Witts and v North/Goldy) where the opposition rucks have monstered English at the stoppages in a close loss. So basically the difference between 5-8 and 9-4. I don't blame English at all - he just doesn't have the ruck craft at stoppages to assist in giving us quality clearances and better looks inside F50. He's a fantastic follower, hence why he gets involved in scoring chains, but at the source he is getting belted too often and very much to his and the team's detriment. It's a massive ask to punish him for 80% ruck time every week, and frankly it is stubbornness and arrogance by Bevo to continue subjecting him to it. Gawn and Grundy weren't rucking big minutes at the same stage of their careers - the only young ruck who did was Josh Fraser, who was cooked by 25.

Hell of a lesson for player and club to learn.
I agree with most of your sentiments but would question whether it is stubbornness and arrogance by Bevo. I sense it is a lack of input by others on the MC to challenge and debate other ideas that would explore different options. English is very young and inexperienced to be expected to compete against the more mature ruck men in Grundy Gawn and Goldstein. He needs the stronger bodied Trengrove to handle the bulk of the ruck work. If you compare similar tall key forwards in Cox and Daniher you would have to say that English is as equally talented and probably more talented.
Is there any reason why he couldn’t play predominantly as a key forward and as a second string ruck man. I also believe our structure would be a lot better by playing Naughton at Full back. Young players need to be played where they are most suitable to gain confidence and Naughton for the most part looks uncomfortable as a key forward. The MC needs a big lift.
One of the best moves this year was to use Macrae as a tag on Cripps which was a big factor in our narrow win.
The Match Committee needs an overhaul in my opinion. I would be doing all possible to lure back Matthew Boyd and Daniel Cross both who had a never say die spirit and wouldn’t accept second best. The Collingwood game was there for the taking but in the end we didn’t know how to win made difficult by Grundy’s dominance of 50 hitouts to English’s 16.