WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019

[Eastdog]

Match preview: Western Bulldogs v Melbourne
Jourdan Canil
Jul 8, 2019 2:37PM

Where and when: Marvel Stadium, Sunday, July 14, 3.20pm AEST

Last time they met: MCG, round 17, 2018: Melbourne 18.11 (119) defeated Western Bulldogs 10.9 (69)

TV, radio and betting: Click here for broadcast guide

What it means for Western Bulldogs: After knocking off the Cats, Luke Beveridge’s men sit at 7-8 and are still in striking distance of a finals spot. All this team needs is a sniff.

What it means for Melbourne: A chance to regain some respect. Sitting in 16th place, the Demons have won two out of their last three games and have a real shot at four points this week.

The stat: Aaron Naughton sits level with Richmond's Tom Lynch in first place in the competition for contested marks. The young forward has taken 33 for the season so far.

The match-up: Clayton Oliver v Jack Macrae

The Official AFL Player Ratings have Oliver and Macrae sixth and 10th-ranked players in the competition this year. Could we see the two ball magnets go head-to-head at Marvel Stadium?

It’s a big week for: Christian Petracca

The young Demon has hit form, averaging 20 disposals and 1.5 goals per game across the last eight matches. With Tom McDonald set to miss the rest of the season, Petracca will have to produce more as marking target.

Big call: Patrick Lipinski to get off the chain with 30 disposals and a goal, with Melbourne's midfield putting a defensive focus on the bigger names.

Prediction: Bulldogs by 15 points.

[bornadog]

Don't forget this is a double header with the VFL starting before the main game

[Eastdog]

I’ll get my predictions in once the teams for Sunday are announced.

[G-Mo77]

I'm going this week and it's a game we're expected to win so I wouldn't get too confident. I haven't watched the Bulldogs win since the Carlton game in 2018. :(

[1eyedog]

Bulldogs by 11 points. Gawn helps them a lot but this is cancelled out by McDonald going out. Good ins Jetta and Lever hopefully still need to find touch.

First major Sam Lloyd
The Bont.

[bornadog]

Dogs by 24
First Goal Schache
BOG: Bont

[bornadog]

Preview:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIvYv_iDvl4

[westbulldog]

Our form suggests we should win but a win in this game is far from given as some might think. English up against both Gawn and Preuss. Lever May and Jetta form a formidable last line, big test for Naughton.

Dogs by 14, they don't have the Bont
First goal McLean
BOG Jack

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I am impressed with Jetta and Lever has not had a chance to impress MFC yet so respect his threat. Their forward half is less threatening without MacDonald. I respect their midfield when they are on. We will have to to will our way to a win. As Bevo says we need everyone to be on their game for us to do the following:
DOGs by 38 pts
FIRST GOAL Macrae
BOG Macrae

[Twodogs]

Bulldogs by 61 points
First goal (out of the 7 he will kick for the game) Naughton
BOG the Bont, the Bont, the Bont!!!!!!!

[Bulldog4life]

Dogs by 28 pts
First goal Lloyd
BOG Macrae

[Eastdog]

Dogs by 19 points

First Goal: Josh Schache

Best On Ground: Jack Macrae along with the Bont have a huge influence

[Rocket Science]

Dead set, we're entitled to be favourites and should account for them.

So of course we won't.

Them by a kick
First major : Johannisen
BOG : Dunkley

I hope Naughton turns May into a stepladder at some point.

[AndrewP6]

This worked the last couple of weeks, so...

Dees by 5 points
First goal Lloyd
BOG AstroNaught

[Eastdog]

I agree we need to weary once again so I’m looking for a great professional Bulldog performance with a win after our last 2 great weeks.

[Eastdog]

https://m.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2019-07-12/four-things-to-watch-round-17

Match preview included which BAD has posted up.

Four things to watch: Round 17
Jul 12, 2019 11:55AM

1. Marcus Bontempelli
Watching the star Bulldog is worth the ticket price alone.
Marcus Bontempelli is enjoying a sensational season – and finding plenty of support from his fellow midfielders too.
The 23-year-old continues to have a big impact on matches.
He’s racking up elite numbers in a number of key areas, according to the AFL’s stats – including contested possessions (13.2), centre clearances (three), inside-50s (5.2) and metres gained (514.5)*.
He was playing a different ball-game in the wet against Port Adelaide, and was again exceptional against Geelong last week.
*All averages per game in 2019

2. Melbourne’s twin towers
With star ruckman Max Gawn returning from injury, the Dees will pair him with fellow big man Braydon Preuss this week.
It looms as a big challenge not just for Tim English, but also the Dogs’ defence.
Gawn is one of the best in the business, and both he and Preuss will have an extra 10 kilograms on English and ruck reserves Josh Schache and Aaron Naughton.
But the Dees will also use their resting ruckman forward, with Jackson Trengove set to have a big role to play when Gawn or Preuss head to the goal square.

3. Dunkley v Dunkley
It’s a match-up neither brother would have seen coming at the start of the season.
But Kyle Dunkley’s elevation to Melbourne’s list from Footscray through the mid-season draft has paid dividends, with teenager earning an AFL debut last week.
He’s set to go head-to-head with older brother Josh, who is one of the competition’s emerging midfield stars.
To complicate things, they live together – and we can only assume it’s been an interesting week in the Dunkley household.
Could they line up side-by-side at some point on Sunday? It’d be nice to see.

4. Our forward line
Cohesion forward of the ball has been talking point for the Dogs all year.
When the midfield-forward connection works – and the conversion rate is high – the Dogs look as dangerous as any team in the competition.
The flipside this week is that Melbourne has conceded more points than any team this year.
They will welcome back important defenders Jake Lever and Neville Jetta though.
But, the Bulldogs’ forward line appears to be coming together nicely. Aaron Naughton slotted four last week, while Josh Schache had important hauls of three in the two matches prior to that.
And Sam Lloyd’s regular output around the sticks – he has 25 majors for the season – has been a welcome addition in 2019.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Dogs by 24 points

1st Goal Suckers

BOG Dunks

[Bulldog Joe]

I agree we need to weary once again so I’m looking for a great professional Bulldog performance with a win after our last 2 great weeks.

Easty
I certainly hope we are not weary but full of energy.

However, I do agree that we need to be WARY.

We win this if we bring 100% commitment and intensity.

[Happy Days]

Dogs by 89
First goal - Naughton
BOG - Bont

Kill the bourgeois pigs Dogs

[Twodogs]

This worked the last couple of weeks, so...

Dees by 5 points
First goal Lloyd
BOG AstroNaught

What a great club, even the supporters get to take one for the team!


Dogs by 89
First goal - Naughton
BOG - Bont

Kill the bourgeois pigs Dogs

For sure, Eat the *!*!*!*!ing rich!

[Eastdog]

Easty
I certainly hope we are not weary but full of energy.

However, I do agree that we need to be WARY.

We win this if we bring 100% commitment and intensity.

Yep wary it is. But I quietly confident we’ll bring that Bulldog intensity on Sunday which we have seen in the past 2 weeks.

[Eastdog]

https://www.metrotrains.com.au/extra-services/

SERVICE DETAIL

AFL Round 17
Western Bulldogs v Melbourne
Sunday 14 July, 3.20pm, Marvel Stadium

EXTRA SERVICES

We’re running extra trains to get you to and from the game.

Before, to Southern Cross Station
Mernda, departing 1.41pm
Glen Waverley, departing 1.58pm
Sunbury, departing 2.01pm
Greensborough, departing 2.02pm

After, departing Southern Cross Station
Mernda, departing 6.06pm Platform 9
Greensborough, departing 6.08pm Platform 9
Sunbury, departing 6.08pm Platform 11
Glen Waverley, departing 6.10pm Platform 10

Plan your journey at ptv.vic.gov.au or call 1800 800 007.


https://www.metrotrains.com.au/planned-works/

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Easty
I certainly hope we are not weary but full of energy.

However, I do agree that we need to be WARY.

We win this if we bring 100% commitment and intensity.

I bet Weary Dunlop was wary of war.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Saturday 5pm and the footy gods are shining down on us. The results so far this weekend look fantastic fir us. We just need to hold up our end tomorrow and bring our A game.

Go Dogs!

[bornadog]

I bet Weary Dunlop was wary of war.

The house I sold two years ago was once Weary Dunlop's Aunt's place and he stayed there with his Aunt while he went to uni

[1eyedog]

Yep wary it is. But I quietly confident will bring that Bulldog intensity on Sunday which we have seen in the past 2 weeks.

We'll.

Go Dogs. We need the next three.

[ratsmac]

We are on a roll and won't be stopped!

Dogs by 32
First goal- Naughton
BOG- Bontempelli (He's so hot right now!)

It's a double header so...
Footscray by 18
First goal- Dale
BOG- Wallis

[boydogs]

Worried Gawn back will kill us at the source

Melbourne by 21
First Goal Lloyd
BOG Crozier

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Worried Gawn back will kill us at the source
I’m not worried around the guts as our boys have been excellent in recent weeks. I more concerned about him pushing forward and doing some damage on the score board
��

[Ghost Dog]

Dogs by 20
First goal- Dickson
BOG- Bont


Cordy looks great in the retro jumper with the moustache. Looks straight off a Scanlens footy card.
Not too sure about the 'Up yours Oakley' banners. necessary?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Not too sure about the 'Up yours Oakley' banners. necessary?

They should have invited him to sit with the cheer squad. That would have been something.

[Ghost Dog]

Bless Irene Chatfield, to toss the coin. Risking a serious neck injury with the several kilo's of badges on her scarf growing longer each year.

[Ghost Dog]

English wins the tap, MacRae inside 50 to Smith who just misses from 20 out. Good start, close one.

[Rocket Science]

https://i.ibb.co/cvJJ7jV/up-yours-gillon.jpg (https://ibb.co/n0rr5Ft)

[Rocket Science]

Good work Toby.

[Ghost Dog]

Good work Toby.

Looked really composed. Playing well so far in all areas.

[AndrewP6]

Arrogance from Bont.

[Vred]

Arrogance from Bont.

Agreed

[Rocket Science]

Arrogance from Bont.

Well if anyone's entitled ...

But yes. Just go back and slot the bloody thing.

[bulldogtragic]

Arrogance from Bont.

Or afraid of a set shot.

[bulldogtragic]

Schache just running up and back. I'm tired just watching him work that hard. And he's getting a bit of it too.

Nice kick Roarke.

[Vred]

Jeez nice goal!

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Nice porky Roarkey.

[Ghost Dog]

Roarke Smith, Slots it from 50 out on an angle.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Scache in the contest like he must be.

[Ghost Dog]

Think Cordy is playing well. Taking good contested grabs down back.

[bulldogtragic]

Scache in the contest like he must be.

Nice to see splitting packs and bringing the ball down. Already 4 disposals, 3 tackles, and maybe 3km.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Bont! The more you miss the more you get.

[Vred]

Come on Bont...

[bulldogtragic]

Nice to see splitting packs and bringing the ball down. Already 4 disposals, 3 tackles, and maybe 3km.

Now mark, kick and goal. Keep it up Joshy.

Inc. 100% efficiency, 3 contested possessions, 3 score involvements.

[jeemak]

Bont is turning into a real bed wetter in front of goals.

Great finish Schache.

[Vred]

Go Josh!

also the English kick to the guts, that would suck to be on the end of that

[Ghost Dog]

Bont missed a very easy goal.
Dogs missing easy shots to keep Melbourne in the game

[GVGjr]

Unforgivable from Bontempelli, is he too scared to take a set shots?
He needs to lift

[bulldogtragic]

Dunkley: 12 disposals, 2 marks, 6 tackles.

Beast.

[bulldogtragic]

Unforgivable from Bontempelli, is he too scared to take a set shots?
He needs to lift

That's my guess.

[AndrewP6]

Pretty uninspiring so far.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Not too sure about the 'Up yours Oakley' banners. necessary?

They should have invited him to sit with the cheer squad. That would have been something.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

McLean is done

[Bulldog4life]

Or afraid of a set shot.

I think that was it BT.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

The Bont the bloody Bont. Two sitters down the drain.

[Ghost Dog]

Pretty uninspiring so far.

McClean Injured. Not sure if he will continue. Sucks. Was playing well.
Our tackles are not sticking in our forward line.

[Vred]

Lloyd with balls of steel running that in

[jeemak]

Sam Lloyd is just a ripping pick up.

[Vred]

Llllllyyyyooooooddddddd

[Ghost Dog]

2 for Sam Lloyd very quickly
Made something out of an ordinary Suckling shot for goal.

Defence holding up well this qtr. Good marking from Easton, Crozier, Cordy.

[Vred]

Bullshit call, no holding in that at all

[Ghost Dog]

Trengrove's kicking reminds me of Minson's action.

[Vred]

These umpiring calls are disgusting

[Ghost Dog]

We are making these guys look good.

[bulldogtragic]

Overruling correct decisions, to make incorrect ones... Cheating?

[bulldogtragic]

Two rule books today. *!*!*!*! me dead.

[Ghost Dog]

Again, it's that last kick inside 50 that is killing us. It's super frustrating to watch. If I wasn't in a public place....
Rather have our Dunkley than theirs. He's having a great game.
Good goal off a Gawn ruck infringement and I have no idea what it was for.

[Mantis]

Is Bont injured? Hasn’t been on for 15min and only 2 sitting on the bench.

[bulldogtragic]

Is Bont injured? Hasn’t been on for 15min and only 2 sitting on the bench.

Rolled ankle, inside of the ankle.

[bulldogtragic]

Even upperer.

[Ghost Dog]

Half time. Suckling, JJ, R.Smith, all have to give a bit more.
Cordy, Jack M, Dunks, doing well.

Hunter is a frustrating player. He gets a lot of the footy but not really affecting the game as much as he could.

[Mantis]

Rolled ankle, inside of the ankle.

Going to be tough with 2 mids out.. including our best one.

[GVGjr]

I love our spirit but we are working far too hard for our results

Need Bontempelli back in the 2nd half

[bulldogtragic]

Dunkley: 22 disp (14 contested), 9 tackles (2 HTB), 1 goal, 2 marks, 6 score involvements, 296m gained

Most would do that in a game, not a half.

[GVGjr]

Half time. Suckling, JJ, R.Smith, all have to give a bit more.
Cordy, Jack M, Dunks, doing well.

Hunter is a frustrating player. He gets a lot of the footy but not really affecting the game as much as he could.

Spot on GD, Suckling has been disappointing

[bulldogtragic]

Going to be tough with 2 mids out.. including our best one.

Yep. Going to need Dunkley to keep influencing, Macrae & Hunter to lift a little and kids like Smith & Lippa do to more minutes

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Dunkley: 22 disp (14 contested), 9 tackles (2 HTB), 1 goal, 2 marks, 6 score involvements, 296m gained

Most would do that in a game, not a half.

He is a beast, we really need Lipinski yo stand up now that the. Only had gone down. This is your time son.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Dunkley is immense, but we have far too many down including Bont.

Our ball movement must improve dramatically.

[Bulldog4life]

Umpiring has been lop sided.

[ratsmac]

We aren't looking good at the moment. Second to the ball and the Dees are getting more numbers to the contest and winning it. We are going to have to even the numbers around to ball this quarter to stop some of their momentum because whats the use of having oitside players that aren't getting it.
Umps gave some soft decisions both way but there was a period there where the umps seem to give them a good run on.

[bulldogtragic]

What a pick up off the ground by Schache!

[Ghost Dog]

Last 10 inside fifties, few points to show for it.

[bulldogtragic]

Last 10 inside fifties, few points to show for it.

Wasted.

[Ghost Dog]

Not confident at all in our f50. Melbourne look like scoring every time they go in.
Lipinski lowering his eyes in the 50 to hit a target. Makes a good change. RSmith to convert. Much needed goal.
Someone in the bar I'm in asks " is that Scott West? I do see the resemblance.."

[Mantis]

How *!*!*!*!ing typical! Dominate the play for 15min for 6 behinds and a few out of bounds and they score with one opportunity.

[Bulldog4life]

Got to kick those Josh

[ratsmac]

I wish our forwards got holding frees like Melbourne's get

[Vred]

My opinion on Roake is starting to change this game.. kid has potential

[lemmon]

Have we genuinely let a 19 year old defender playing his second game kick 3 in two and a half quarters?

[bulldogtragic]

Have we genuinely let a 19 year old defender playing his second game kick 3 in two and a half quarters?

Yes.

[Ghost Dog]

Bont with a one handed juggling grab in the f50. But misses. Having a poor game but still time.

[bulldogtragic]

I don't remember ever being really frustrated by Bonts. But I'm getting very, very, very close.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Lipinski didn’t wrap Viney up and let him play on then kicks it out of. Bounds. Poor 2 minutes of footy

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Bont has the yips bad like that one year of Chris Grants. He moved his torso to the right as he kicked it and missed right.
Girdle your loins Marcus...
Now Scache....didn't follow through
.

[Ghost Dog]

At this point, being just ahead, I'd love it if we took more set shots just outside 50. It eats up the clock and we are a fair chance to mark it in the square. We keep dicking around with our entries and stuffing it up.

[GVGjr]

Gee we are working hard, if we can get some efficient footy in the last quarter we will give this an almighty shake

[jeemak]

Flat out cheating. That was 50 any day of the week. Disgusting display.

[Ghost Dog]

Siren. 7 goals 13. Back to our old ways. If we get a steady run at it and calm down a bit, should have this.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Yep but if we nail a few set shots they are gonna crumble

How good has Dunkley been today. Did I saw if before. He is a beast

[Bulldog4life]

Flat out cheating. That was 50 any day of the week. Disgusting display.

They don't pay it anymore. Last week Kelly twice kicked it away after a free to us and both times nothing.

[Vred]

Flat out cheating. That was 50 any day of the week. Disgusting display.

Should of been a *!*!*!*!ing 50. Umpiring this game has been shithouse

[bulldogtragic]

1.8 and complete misses is just so frustrating. A part from losing, going ahead in years it hurts percentage so much.

[Jeanette54]

Whatever happens Dunks is never beaten, just keeps going.

[chef]

Not confident. Hope we dont spoil a memorable week.

[GVGjr]

I think we will all be sitting on the edge of our chairs this quarter

[Bumper Bulldogs]

1.8 and complete misses is just so frustrating. A part from losing, going ahead in years it hurts percentage so much.

Also about three out on the full and a couple fell short.

[merantau]

Listening on the ABC over here. Tolerable broadcast this time. Wish we could kick straight. Got to put them away. My heart is not up to close finishes any more. Surely we have to turn the corner. Go Dogs!

[BornInDroopSt'54]

One quarter shoot out.

[bulldogtragic]

I think I might Anchor Bonts for the first ever time.

[Jeanette54]

I think I might Anchor Bonts for the first ever time.

Give him a break. Watching the replays of his injury incident we will be lucky if he manages any time in the rest of the game.

[bulldogtragic]

Give him a break. Watching the replays of his injury incident we will be lucky if he manages any time in the rest of the game.

His goal kicking.

[chef]

Trengoves had a bit of a mare.

[Vred]

Trengove out. Done with him now

[jeemak]

This is why Trengove is a liability around the footy in the ruck. Just too loose with how he contests.

[chef]

Give him a break. Watching the replays of his injury incident we will be lucky if he manages any time in the rest of the game.

His crap goal kicking has been happening all year though.

[Ghost Dog]

Dunks absolutely deserves that goal. Has been brilliant all game.
Melbourne have far too many numbers going in 50 our defence looks disorganised.

[Vred]

These umpires can go hang. Worst umpiring I’ve seen all year

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Umpires think its their game.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Lachie! I was not confident but he was.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

That was B.S!

[Vred]

Sign Bailey Smith for the next 10 years, now

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Good defensive pressure Dogs.

[Ghost Dog]

Crozier has mad skills in the air.

[Ghost Dog]

Lachie! I was not confident but he was.

Trust him to get the hard ones. A bit like my billiards game.

[Ghost Dog]

Lipnski out of the game. Melbourne matching us in the kicking dept. let us off the hook with a point.

[Ghost Dog]

Easton Wood diving for a free on the deck. Not a good look from the captain.

[Vred]

:mad: This one is going down to the last minute

[Ghost Dog]

Naughton in defence. JJ marks in Fwd 50. We won this fight literally by keeping the ball in our half for large parts of the game, without being able to score a goal.

[bulldogtragic]

That's my boy Josh!

[Ghost Dog]

10 goals 14 points. Was pretty scrappy and not very skillful, but we got there.

[Vred]

Thank *!*!*!*! for that one. Close game, still in it for the finals (one can hope)

[whythelongface]

Well done. Not pretty but managed to get the four points

[jeemak]

Really happy with an ugly win, it's three weeks in a row where we've had to scrap and fight for a lot of the games to get points but he did and we should be very happy with the resilience we've been able to build.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I think we needed a real gritty win like that. Should give them a small kick in the butt to come out next week. Will be interesting to see how the boys pull up. Could be three changes next week.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Scache has presented really well, shame about his last two shots on goal.

[GVGjr]

Unreal, it wasn't pretty butwe got there in the end.

Pround supporter at the moment

[BornInDroopSt'54]

A percentage booster.

[Ghost Dog]

Not sure. I don't feel that confident to be honest. Made extremely hard work of it.
A lot of players on decent salaries are underperforming IMHO.
JJ, Suckling, Shaq ( presented well, but even at the end, should be icing goals like that. I did like his attack on the ball ).
But the younger players are certainly getting reward for effort. R Smith had a good game, Dunks, Smith, Lipinski.

If anything I am really happy, as Melbourne are a boogey side for us and it's the sharp end of the season.

[merantau]

If games like that don't build belief then nothing does. Seems to me they willed themselves to win. From the radio broadcast it sounded like Crozier, Duryea, Hunter, JJ and English were very good in the last and Dunkley was outstanding all game. Schache also was good throughout along with Roarke Smith and Lloyd.

[merantau]

And Bailey Smith

[chef]

Fitting win in the context of the week. We just didnt want to die.

Carn the Scray.

[bornadog]

Killed in clearances, stoppages, Cont poss and still won

[bornadog]

How good was Duryea, Hunter and Dunks

[Bulldog4life]

Scache has presented really well, shame about his last two shots on goal.

Played well but he has to nail the sitters.

[ReLoad]

Killed in clearances, stoppages, Cont poss and still won it’s normally the other way around

[Sedat]

Our ability to clamp down defensively on the opposition has been next level in the last month.

Considering we were predictably destroyed in the ruck and at stoppage and clearances, and with less rotations due to injury, that is a really solid win.

We desperately need to do sometbing about lightening English's ruck stoppage workload for the rest of the season. Had we lost, it would have been the 5th time this season under the same circumstances.

[divvydan]

I actually thought Trengove did a good job nullifying Gawn's ruck dominance in the second half. Yes he gave away a free or two but Gawn and by extension Melbourne's scoring from stoppages, was just about our biggest hurdle to overcome all game (our goalkicking aside).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Dunkley was the difference and supported well by Hunter and Duryea.

Massive game from Josh - he’s one of the best mids in the game now. Incredibly strong and works both ways.

Thought Doc was super important and saved us a number of times - especially considering Wood, Crozier and Trengove struggled. The sooner we can replace Trengove the better - he’s a real battler - and we should be demanding so much more from Wood who routinely makes some poor decisions ie. the free he gave away late.

Smith is having a great first year - quieter today but that goal was fantastic.

I liked Schaches intensity - kick straight and he has a great game.

We did well to win considering how many players were down. As mentioned elsewhere, probably fitting of the week.

[Mofra]

Doc's best game for the club, Dunkley one of the best individual efforts for the year.

Thought Wood was very good early.

[Mofra]

The sooner we can replace Trengove the better - he’s a real battler - and we should be demanding so much more from Wood who routinely makes some poor decisions ie. the free he gave away late.
Trengove kept their ruck duo to 1 behind (combined) for the day, he more than played his role. He nullified Gawn in the ruck in the 3rd quarter.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Trengove kept their ruck duo to 1 behind (combined) for the day, he more than played his role. He nullified Gawn in the ruck in the 3rd quarter.

I couldn’t disagree more.

Trengove has at least 2 kicked in him by a kid (Petty), positioned himself poorly numerous times, gave away free kicks, turned it over and was lucky enough to get away with one or two late holds. He was awful.

[The Doctor]

Doc's best game for the club

thanks :cool:

[GVGjr]

Fritsch playing on and missing that shot in the last quarters timely for us.

[Twodogs]

Fritsch playing on and missing that shot in the last quarters timely for us.

One of the 5,000 or so Bai(y)leys on the ground today.

[chef]

I couldn’t disagree more.

Trengove has at least 2 kicked in him by a kid (Petty), positioned himself poorly numerous times, gave away free kicks, turned it over and was lucky enough to get away with one or two late holds. He was awful.

Agree. He was putrid .

[azabob]

Not sure. I don't feel that confident to be honest. Made extremely hard work of it.
A lot of players on decent salaries are underperforming IMHO.
JJ, Suckling, Shaq ( presented well, but even at the end, should be icing goals like that. I did like his attack on the ball ).
But the younger players are certainly getting reward for effort. R Smith had a good game, Dunks, Smith, Lipinski.

If anything I am really happy, as Melbourne are a boogey side for us and it's the sharp end of the season.

Bit harsh on Schache. One of our bests today.

[azabob]

Great effort and a good win by the boys. Down a man in the rotations for three quarters, but we kept grinding away.

[bulldogtragic]

Bit harsh on Schache. One of our bests today.

Yep, easily one of our bests for so many different reasons.

I also liked this week, and last week too, that Bailey Smith has found himself in the position to kick a crucial goal in a very tight match with the heat of opponents on, and he nailed them.

[HOSE B ROMERO]

Another weekend and another three wins to savour. Makes the working week a lot easier .

[Mantis]

Not sure. I don't feel that confident to be honest. Made extremely hard work of it.
A lot of players on decent salaries are underperforming IMHO.
JJ, Suckling, Shaq ( presented well, but even at the end, should be icing goals like that. I did like his attack on the ball ).
But the younger players are certainly getting reward for effort. R Smith had a good game, Dunks, Smith, Lipinski.

If anything I am really happy, as Melbourne are a boogey side for us and it's the sharp end of the season.

Really?.. both were terrible. Roarke kicked a couple of nice goals, but did f-all else.

Lipinski had a stinker.

[merantau]

Can someone answer this - how many getable set shots did we miss? And getable snaps? Especially in the first half and the 3rd quarter.

[Ghost Dog]

Really?.. both were terrible. Roarke kicked a couple of nice goals, but did f-all else.

Lipinski had a stinker.

On Roarke, When I mean good game, I mean much improved by his standards. Would certainly not call his involvement besides the goals 'f-all else'.
Lipinski I may be at times getting confused with Richards I think. But hey, I was drinking.

[Eastdog]

Go Dogs! Just happy to get the win. We could have won by more had we kicked straighter but we are still in with a chance for finals.

[GVGjr]

You know what, the way we played and the result we achieved does take me back 30 years ago. We didn't always play nice and pretty football but we often found a way to etch out a nail biting win.

Outside of the injury concerns to a few players today it's was a gutsy win that has me as proud as ever for our club.

I can't been too critical of anyone given what we achieved today and I'm looking forward to our battle against the Saints next week

[Mantis]

On Roarke, When I mean good game, I mean much improved by his standards. Would certainly not call his involvement besides the goals 'f-all else'.
Lipinski I may be at times getting confused with Richards I think. But hey, I was drinking.

Roarke had 7 touches across a full game playing wing/HF.. that's not good enough.

Lipinski missed tackles and wasn't clean by hand or foot, not his best game.. Ed was quiet too.

[GVGjr]

Roarke had 7 touches across a full game playing wing/HF.. that's not good enough.

Lipinski missed tackles and wasn't clean by hand or foot, not his best game.. Ed was quiet too.

A number of players were down today and will need to lift in the next few weeks. Our better players were just so dominant and carried us to the win

[Ghost Dog]

Roarke had 7 touches across a full game playing wing/HF.. that's not good enough.

Lipinski missed tackles and wasn't clean by hand or foot, not his best game.. Ed was quiet too.


The kid has had two knee reco's and a tough road. He got 2 goals. Good on him. It may not be good enough for you, but it's better than last week.
You've said what you think. I get it.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Our strength today was our team defensive set up, we did not let them off the leash. Our offensive side was down missing goals but Schache kept presenting and contesting. Watching Bont today was like watching Greg Chappell in his off year although his defensuve efforts in the 4th were great.

[mjp]

You know what, the way we played and the result we achieved does take me back 30 years ago. We didn't always play nice and pretty football but we often found a way to etch out a nail biting win.



Yeah I agree - and I'm a bit baffled by this thread...I thought we played great. Got smashed in the ruck and in the clearances, were one down for most of the game and missed Bont as well for the 2nd quarter...and 3 of Melbourne's goals were to 50-50 decisions right in front of goal. No - I'm not blaming umpiring but those decisions *COULD* have gone either way and really hurt us.

I am reading and understanding the criticism of Smith (Roarke version) and Dickson I guess...but both have played the last two weeks and we have WON BOTH GAMES.

I think sometimes we all forget that teams are greater than the sum of the parts and instead focus heavily on individuals. We WON. Without Smith (in particular), we wouldn't have as those 2-goals were CRUCIAL to the outcome. I don't want to engage in what Ross Lyon would call 'finger-nail deep analysis' but that was a really good performance today against a team strongest where we are weakest (ruck and key defenders) and constructed around an inside ball-winning midfield (Viney et al) that really is the only combination in the league strong enough to consistently beat our group (Macrae, Bont, Dunk) in a contested ball battle...PLUS, they tagged JJ and settled him RIGHT down so we lost our one proven run and carry player behind the ball...and we STILL WON.

Great game of footy and really well done to the players.

[azabob]

On Roarke Smith he may not have got a hell of a lot of the ball but without his two goals we don’t win the game. His first goal was an absolute cracker and didn’t look like missing.

[Twodogs]

Yeah I agree - and I'm a bit baffled by this thread...I thought we played great. Got smashed in the ruck and in the clearances, were one down for most of the game and missed Bont as well for the 2nd quarter...and 3 of Melbourne's goals were to 50-50 decisions right in front of goal. No - I'm not blaming umpiring but those decisions *COULD* have gone either way and really hurt us.

I am reading and understanding the criticism of Smith (Roarke version) and Dickson I guess...but both have played the last two weeks and we have WON BOTH GAMES.

I think sometimes we all forget that teams are greater than the sum of the parts and instead focus heavily on individuals. We WON. Without Smith (in particular), we wouldn't have as those 2-goals were CRUCIAL to the outcome. I don't want to engage in what Ross Lyon would call 'finger-nail deep analysis' but that was a really good performance today against a team strongest where we are weakest (ruck and key defenders) and constructed around an inside ball-winning midfield (Viney et al) that really is the only combination in the league strong enough to consistently beat our group (Macrae, Bont, Dunk) in a contested ball battle...PLUS, they tagged JJ and settled him RIGHT down so we lost our one proven run and carry player behind the ball...and we STILL WON.

Great game of footy and really well done to the players.

Yep I agree. I read a lot on this thread about effort and all the rest but I thought that today was about the effort we need to bring to our next few games and if we bring that for the rest of the season we win every game. I don't understand the doom and gloom.




You know what, the way we played and the result we achieved does take me back 30 years ago. We didn't always play nice and pretty football but we often found a way to etch out a nail biting win.

Outside of the injury concerns to a few players today it's was a gutsy win that has me as proud as ever for our club.

I can't been too critical of anyone given what we achieved today and I'm looking forward to our battle against the Saints next week

Actually 30 years ago we were on our uppers and couldn't get a win to save ourselves-literally! 1989 was a shit of a year (wooden spoon, coach and players leaving) that was saved by one divine off-field moment. But I see what you mean.

[hujsh]

You know what, the way we played and the result we achieved does take me back 30 years ago. We didn't always play nice and pretty football but we often found a way to etch out a nail biting win.

Outside of the injury concerns to a few players today it's was a gutsy win that has me as proud as ever for our club.

I can't been too critical of anyone given what we achieved today and I'm looking forward to our battle against the Saints next week

Is also how we won most games in the H&A season in 2016. Sometimes you just have to get the job done and today we did that...just

[Eastdog]

Just was wondering if we can still buy those fightback jumpers from the Bulldog shop online.

I just got my ticket for the game for next Sunday at Marvel.

[ledge]

On Roarke Smith he may not have got a hell of a lot of the ball but without his two goals we don’t win the game. His first goal was an absolute cracker and didn’t look like missing.

Also made important tackles in key moments.

[The bulldog tragician]

Also made important tackles in key moments.

I feel certain the coaches would have been happy with Roarke’s game. I don’t know if he will make it longer-term, but he is still very young in terms of experience, and those two goals were like gold. I’m very happy with how he goes about it, his endeavour can’t be questioned, and he’s starting to look like he believes in himself. We are very critical as supporters, even when Bont has a rare poor game. He has carried us on his shoulders for so much of the season. We found a way to win today, earlier in the season this was a game we would have lost. The group is developing cohesion. Good times are not far away..

[soupman]

Happy with that. Not necessarily an enjoyable game to watch but we nullified them well and most players contributed.

Roarke statistically wasn't impressive but I think he owned his moments in the p;lay which was pleasing. Took good marks, was constructive with the ball in hand, applied good pressure and importantly nailed his chances for goal. Let's face it we don't want Roarke getting it 20 times at the expense of someone else, so if he can make his involvements good and perform a role in the side i think he keeps his spot.

Very happy with Cordy's game. He has had a tough season where he has struggled to do much more than break even in contests so to see him taking good intercept marks and being physical was pleasing. Duryea is another who isn't highly rated here but was fantastic today. Was good aerially, constructive and effective with ball in hand and really showed he can contribute. It was about this point in the season last year that Crozier finally seemed to click and went from being fringe to an integral part of the side, could Duryea also be hitting that point?

Also Schache put in a strong case for his making it. Today he was excellent in affecting aerial contests, and showed the poise and good ball use he is capable of that would have been big reasons why he went pick 2. Very pleased with his effort.

[azabob]

Great point on Duryea, Lloyd has his breakthrough game last week and Duryea today.

[SonofScray]

A dour win, on a good day for the Club. Winning is the most valuable thing for us now.

I was frustrated for a few stretches, concerned with the output of a few blokes but am giving them a reprieve. We were two down for a fair stretch and one down for most. Hard to win when you are faced with that. Did well to push on.

[bornadog]

Can someone answer this - how many getable set shots did we miss? And getable snaps? Especially in the first half and the 3rd quarter.

Bont had 3 all up

[bornadog]

Actually 30 years ago we were on our uppers and couldn't get a win to save ourselves-literally! 1989 was a shit of a year (wooden spoon, coach and players leaving) that was saved by one divine off-field moment. But I see what you mean.

Not quite the wooden spoon, but close

[Scraggers]

Did you hear the Bulldog song at the end of the game?
It was Sons of the Scray. Sounded bloody good too.

[bornadog]

The Retro Jumper - was pretty good

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_b3eL_UcAE4txT.png

[AndrewP6]

Did you hear the Bulldog song at the end of the game?
It was Sons of the Scray. Sounded bloody good too.

They used it for the VFL too. I like it. Had the lyrics on screen before the game.

[bulldogtragic]

How many jumpers have we had this year in 17 rounds?

Home, away, fightback, marvel, indigenous (5)

Any others?

[Mofra]

I couldn’t disagree more.

Trengove has at least 2 kicked in him by a kid (Petty), positioned himself poorly numerous times, gave away free kicks, turned it over and was lucky enough to get away with one or two late holds. He was awful.
Ditto, couldn't disagree more. He was barely on Petty at all, Cordy took Pettey whenever Petracca played high forward.
We have nobody else who can take the big forwards. Given he spent all pre-season in the ruck before we desperately threw him back he's doing all we can ask of him.

[SonofScray]

How many jumpers have we had this year in 17 rounds?

Home, away, fightback, marvel, indigenous (5)

Any others? I reckon we'll get the diamond dog at some point!

[The bulldog tragician]

Re: the song. Does anyone remember, For little while after 89, the lyrics were changed..they used to have: Remember 54, until I guess that was a bit embarrassing :cool: and we changed to Remember 89..

It was so very us that the song used to be: We’ll come up smiling, if we win or lose..

[Dry Rot]

Only heard bits on the radio and have seen the highlights.

What a tackle by Dunkley on Brayshaw? High speed, high impact and with intent to hurt.

As an old NRL man, that was a thing of great beauty for me.

Show me a better AFL tackle.

[Ghost Dog]

From Demonland forum "Our forward entries are like a 15 year old boy trying to pick up at a blue light disc";)

[soupman]

Did you hear the Bulldog song at the end of the game?
It was Sons of the Scray. Sounded bloody good too.

A few of the lyrics were a bit questionable but the music backing track was phenomenal. Much better than the current backing track.

[Twodogs]

Not quite the wooden spoon, but close

You are right too. I had us down for more spoons than we have "earned."

[Twodogs]

From Demonland forum "Our forward entries are like a 15 year old boy trying to pick up at a blue light disc";)

I used to go alright when I was 15, certainly better than I go as a 55 year old!

[Hotdog60]

I used to go alright when I was 15, certainly better than I go as a 55 year old!

There is something very wrong with this statement. :eek:

[Mantis]

Ditto, couldn't disagree more. He was barely on Petty at all, Cordy took Pettey whenever Petracca played high forward.
We have nobody else who can take the big forwards. Given he spent all pre-season in the ruck before we desperately threw him back he's doing all we can ask of him.

He was on Petty long enough to give away another silly free in a marking contest when we were well on top.. gifted them a goal from nothing.

[Mofra]

From Demonland forum "Our forward entries are like a 15 year old boy trying to pick up at a blue light disc";)
They did have their two best KPFs out.

[Bulldog4life]

Melbourne's dual All Australian ruckman Max Gawn dined out on the Western Bulldogs for the umpteenth time on Sunday, but it was the Dogs who won the day. It's a familiar problem for Luke Beveridge and his team, with promising big man Tim English still some way from being a force in the centre. English consistently loses the hitouts by a big margin – just ask Brodie Grundy – but the Bulldogs have found a way to defy that disadvantage. Beveridge calls it being "reactively proactive", with his midfielders conditioned to having to shark the opposition's taps. The Demons won the clearances, but certainly didn't fully capitalise on the armchair ride Gawn gave them. In fact, only 12 of the 208cm ruckman's 34 hitouts were to advantage, whereas he famously had seven to advantage in one quarter against the Dogs last year. That's where hitout numbers can be deceiving, and everyone would be better off including only those to advantage. - Marc McGowan

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-07-14/nine-things-we-learned-from-round-17

[AndrewP6]

A few of the lyrics were a bit questionable but the music backing track was phenomenal. Much better than the current backing track.

The lyrics were befitting of a time when footy wasn't big business, and people played for the love of the game. I thought it was terrific.

[Eastdog]

I’m used to the current WB song but I enjoyed singing the old one yesterday. Having the lyrics up there helped me :)

[Eastdog]

The worst part of the song

Doesn’t make sense if we lose that you would come out smiling.

[Danjul]

Melbourne's dual All Australian ruckman Max Gawn dined out on the Western Bulldogs for the umpteenth time on Sunday, but it was the Dogs who won the day. It's a familiar problem for Luke Beveridge and his team, with promising big man Tim English still some way from being a force in the centre. English consistently loses the hitouts by a big margin – just ask Brodie Grundy – but the Bulldogs have found a way to defy that disadvantage. Beveridge calls it being "reactively proactive", with his midfielders conditioned to having to shark the opposition's taps. The Demons won the clearances, but certainly didn't fully capitalise on the armchair ride Gawn gave them. In fact, only 12 of the 208cm ruckman's 34 hitouts were to advantage, whereas he famously had seven to advantage in one quarter against the Dogs last year. That's where hitout numbers can be deceiving, and everyone would be better off including only those to advantage. - Marc McGowan

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-07-14/nine-things-we-learned-from-round-17

according to the stats in The Age , Melbourne had 20 hitouts to advantage and the Dogs had 3 (none by English).

The difference of 17 kept Melbourne in the game. Some of them happened in front of me and I got a clear view of the Melbourne player running away from the pack with the ball landing in his hands at speed. Most of these seem to result in a kick heading directly towards goal. Worth 3 or 4 of the sideways or backwards kicks and handballs which try to get out of trouble.

Despite what Beveridge says, the Dogs midfielders have not sharked one of the opponents hitouts to advantage this year. It has always been other players responsibility to rectify the damage, and damage it has been. That is the aspect which has prevented the team from sitting comfortably in the top eight.

[hujsh]

according to the stats in The Age , Melbourne had 20 hitouts to advantage and the Dogs had 3 (none by English).

The difference of 17 kept Melbourne in the game. Some of them happened in front of me and I got a clear view of the Melbourne player running away from the pack with the ball landing in his hands at speed. Most of these seem to result in a kick heading directly towards goal. Worth 3 or 4 of the sideways or backwards kicks and handballs which try to get out of trouble.

Despite what Beveridge says, the Dogs midfielders have not sharked one of the opponents hitouts to advantage this year. It has always been other players responsibility to rectify the damage, and damage it has been. That is the aspect which has prevented the team from sitting comfortably in the top eight.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that impossible? The act of sharking the tap surely means it is not a tap to advantage anymore.

[bornadog]

according to the stats in The Age , Melbourne had 20 hitouts to advantage and the Dogs had 3 (none by English).

The difference of 17 kept Melbourne in the game. Some of them happened in front of me and I got a clear view of the Melbourne player running away from the pack with the ball landing in his hands at speed. Most of these seem to result in a kick heading directly towards goal. Worth 3 or 4 of the sideways or backwards kicks and handballs which try to get out of trouble.

Despite what Beveridge says, the Dogs midfielders have not sharked one of the opponents hitouts to advantage this year. It has always been other players responsibility to rectify the damage, and damage it has been. That is the aspect which has prevented the team from sitting comfortably in the top eight.

We lost the hitouts, hitout to advantage, Clearances, Stoppages, Cont. poss. centre clearances - yet we won. Go figure, despite Gawn doing everything he could as a ruckman. Ruckman are not the only cog in the wheel.

The thing is right now, we don't have anyone else as a ruckman and we have to make do. I think, English probably only rucked half the game yesterday, yet I think he was just as if not more more valuable around the ground than Gawn.

[Ozza]

We lost the hitouts, hitout to advantage, Clearances, Stoppages, Cont. poss. centre clearances - yet we won. Go figure, despite Gawn doing everything he could as a ruckman. Ruckman are not the only cog in the wheel.

The thing is right now, we don't have anyone else as a ruckman and we have to make do. I think, English probably only rucked half the game yesterday, yet I think he was just as if not more more valuable around the ground than Gawn.

He was quite brilliant around the ground again.
Interesting match up for Tim v Marshall for St.Kilda this week who is only 2 years older and 4 games more experienced than Tim. Marshall gives them a fair bit around the ground, and has hit the scoreboard in recent weeks.

[Danjul]

We lost the hitouts, hitout to advantage, Clearances, Stoppages, Cont. poss. centre clearances - yet we won. Go figure, despite Gawn doing everything he could as a ruckman. Ruckman are not the only cog in the wheel.

The thing is right now, we don't have anyone else as a ruckman and we have to make do. I think, English probably only rucked half the game yesterday, yet I think he was just as if not more more valuable around the ground than Gawn.

Sorry, I didn’t see it this way.

1. Melbourne’s rucks kept them in the game. They would have lost by 5 goals otherwise.

2. Ruck is very important and there are disadvantages in not treating it seriously.

we risk Naughton by playing him in the ruck. High injury rate for part time ruckmen.
And we waste Schache by playing him in the ruck. Has contributed nothing this year and it depletes the forward line where he is important.
And we rob the backline by playing Trengove in the ruck.
And we will not be so lucky again when playing Dunkley in the ruck.

3. Gawn’s 14 kicks were more valuable than English’s 6. I would love to see English kick 50 metres as a first option instead of handball. Then he might have been as valuable.

Despite this ruck fiasco the Dogs did win as expected. That is because Dunkley’s 2 goals were better than his brother’s 1. And the rest of the team played well.

[bornadog]

we risk Naughton by playing him in the ruck. High injury rate for part time ruckmen.
And we waste Schache by playing him in the ruck. Has contributed nothing this year and it depletes the forward line where he is important.
And we rob the backline by playing Trengove in the ruck.
And we will not be so lucky again when playing Dunkley in the ruck.

You keep saying this but have no solution. We need a number one ruck, and a second ruck when number one is resting. That is why we play Schache, or Naughton and this time Trengove in the ruck. Who else plays ruck? Please don't say Sweet, as he is not AFL standard at this stage.


Gawn’s 14 kicks were more valuable than English’s 6. I would love to see English kick 50 metres as a first option instead of handball. Then he might have been as valuable.

English's marks in the last line of defence saved a few goals. Gawn is the AFL number one/two ruckman - Tim has played 23 games, Gawn 114 and at his peak 6 years older. I think give credit where credit is due.


the Dogs did win as expected. That is because Dunkley’s 2 goals were better than his brother’s 1. And the rest of the team played well.

That is very simplistic

[Danjul]

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that impossible? The act of sharking the tap surely means it is not a tap to advantage anymore.

Exactly.

The forum comments suggest that the hitouts to advantage are the relevant statistic, and where we get killed most weeks. They keep the opposition in the game and give them a win even the Dogs are the better team.

The coach’ Comments about setting up to shark the opposition hitouts are simply propaganda. We have a situation that should never have been allowed to develop. And it has defined the season.

[bornadog]

Exactly.

The forum comments suggest that the hitouts to advantage are the relevant statistic, and where we get killed most weeks. They keep the opposition in the game and give them a win even the Dogs are the better team.

The coach’ Comments about setting up to shark the opposition hitouts are simply propaganda. We have a situation that should never have been allowed to develop. And it has defined the season.

Gawn 34 hitouts, Preuss 17, total 51. 20 to advantage, means we got the rest of the balls ie 31 ;) - that is why we won. :D

[jeemak]

Exactly.

The forum comments suggest that the hitouts to advantage are the relevant statistic, and where we get killed most weeks. They keep the opposition in the game and give them a win even the Dogs are the better team.

The coach’ Comments about setting up to shark the opposition hitouts are simply propaganda. We have a situation that should never have been allowed to develop. And it has defined the season.

How can they have defined the season if the same thing is happening and we're putting ourselves in a position to possibly play finals on the back of actually defending the ground and constraining the oppositions ability to score freely?

The ruck situation isn't ideal, and we should have known we needed more support in the area given the issues with Tom Boyd. But, on face value there is very little evidence to suggest that with the personnel we have available to us that we would be competing at a higher level with a different ruck set up.

Pulling Trengove out of full back and having him ruck as first option leaves us exposed defencively, putting in Sweet means we have an additional big in the side and we lose run and ball usage ability, unless we want one of Naughton or Schache not to play or play defencively (in the case of Naughton), weakening our forward line.

Talking about sharking the opposition's ruck tapping isn't propaganda, it's what any sane and sensible midfield set-up would do if faced with the personnel variances we are every week. Sure it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens and will continue to happen. The idea is to ensure you keep a balance between that and being defencive around stoppages, which is what we've struggled with more than I'd like.

[hujsh]

Yeah if we take our chances they're out of the game at 3 quarter time. Ruckwork didn't keep Melbourne in it this time, we did.

[Bulldog4life]

Bobby Skilton won 3 Brownlow medals roving to the other side's ruckman. It has been going on for a very long time.

[Danjul]

You keep saying this but have no solution. We need a number one ruck, and a second ruck when number one is resting. That is why we play Schache, or Naughton and this time Trengove in the ruck. Who else plays ruck? Please don't say Sweet, as he is not AFL standard at this stage.

English's marks in the last line of defence saved a few goals. Gawn is the AFL number one/two ruckman - Tim has played 23 games, Gawn 114 and at his peak 6 years older. I think give credit where credit is due.

We outplayed a bottom team and fell over the line. Three weeks ago we humiliated Collingwood but still lost. Stop saying that there’s no problem and anyway there’s nothing that can be done. There is a problem and there are people in the club who are smart enough to shuffle the pieces and make a better picture.

English was not first ruck standard at the end of last year in the VFL. He was consistently pushed aside by bigger bodies.

Sweet is a better tap ruckman in the VFL than English was at this stage last year.

All he has to do is limit the carnage. What else does he have to do? Nothing. Does it matter if Sweet gets beaten? No. Let him ruck 100 minutes....
......and let English, Schache, Naughton, Trengove and others get on with winning the game. They can do it.

(No one has considered using English as a tall utility, I think he could be exceptional in that role.)

This is not criticising English, he has heeps to offer. He is tall and exceptional. Time for the club to focus more on the exceptional.

How many hitouts to advantage has Schache had this season? None.
Do we want Naughton injured? No.

At the moment the ruck is simply a distraction for them.

[Danjul]

Bobby Skilton won 3 Brownlow medals roving to the other side's ruckman. It has been going on for a very long time.

Not sure of the timing, but the Swans still took Barry Round.

[bornadog]

We outplayed a bottom team and fell over the line. Three weeks ago we humiliated Collingwood but still lost. Stop saying that there’s no problem and anyway there’s nothing that can be done. There is a problem and there are people in the club who are smart enough to shuffle the pieces and make a better picture.

English was not first ruck standard at the end of last year in the VFL. He was consistently pushed aside by bigger bodies.

Sweet is a better tap ruckman in the VFL than English was at this stage last year.

All he has to do is limit the carnage. What else does he have to do? Nothing. Does it matter if Sweet gets beaten? No. Let him ruck 100 minutes....
......and let English, Schache, Naughton, Trengove and others get on with winning the game. They can do it.

(No one has considered using English as a tall utility, I think he could be exceptional in that role.)

This is not criticising English, he has heeps to offer. He is tall and exceptional. Time for the club to focus more on the exceptional.

How many hitouts to advantage has Schache had this season? None.
Do we want Naughton injured? No.

At the moment the ruck is simply a distraction for them.

I once asked Will Minson the difference between VFL and AFL, and he said, if I can get 27 disposals at VFL, that tells the story.

I am not saying there isn't an issue with hitouts, what I am saying is the way we are playing it, I don't have a problem with it.

This is not the 1980's when you can have a lumbering ruckman like Sweet tapping the ball down and then doing stuff all during the game. It just doesn't work that way.

Danjul - enjoy the win, enjoy the last 2 as well and who knows where the season will take us. We are on the improve with a young inexperienced side that is getting better every week.

[GVGjr]

You keep saying this but have no solution. We need a number one ruck, and a second ruck when number one is resting. That is why we play Schache, or Naughton and this time Trengove in the ruck. Who else plays ruck? Please don't say Sweet, as he is not AFL standard at this stage.



Clearly we don't have many options for this year and we will have to live with the consequences but the focus has to be about finding some support for English for next year in particular

Losing Boyd hurt us but we were very shortsighted with our planning given his struggles. Enough said

I think the days of playing two ruckman like Melbourne tried yesterday are over but equally we must have some other options.
There is merit in what Danjul writes in that it's taking a higher risk than is necessary with our younger players like Dunkley, Naughton and even Schache than we should be. We either need to find a KP defender to free up Trengove more or find a stronger bodied forward who can provide more that 5 minutes a quarter in the ruck as required.

[GVGjr]

Sweet is a better tap ruckman in the VFL than English was at this stage last year.

All he has to do is limit the carnage. What else does he have to do? Nothing. Does it matter if Sweet gets beaten? No. Let him ruck 100 minutes....
......and let English, Schache, Naughton, Trengove and others get on with winning the game. They can do it.

(No one has considered using English as a tall utility, I think he could be exceptional in that role.)

This is not criticising English, he has heeps to offer. He is tall and exceptional. Time for the club to focus more on the exceptional.

How many hitouts to advantage has Schache had this season? None.
Do we want Naughton injured? No.

At the moment the ruck is simply a distraction for them.

Sweet is a mile off being a senior player in my opinion. He's also not the quality tap ruckman many think he is.
He needs another season or so before he might force his way into calculations

Gawn would have run him ragged by half time, Tim actually started putting work into Gawn at times with his mobility

At the moment Sweet doesn't quite have the feel for the game offering little value around the ground but the scope for improvement is there

[Danjul]

How can they have defined the season if the same thing is happening and we're putting ourselves in a position to possibly play finals on the back of actually defending the ground and constraining the oppositions ability to score freely?

The ruck situation isn't ideal, and we should have known we needed more support in the area given the issues with Tom Boyd. But, on face value there is very little evidence to suggest that with the personnel we have available to us that we would be competing at a higher level with a different ruck set up.

Pulling Trengove out of full back and having him ruck as first option leaves us exposed defencively, putting in Sweet means we have an additional big in the side and we lose run and ball usage ability, unless we want one of Naughton or Schache not to play or play defencively (in the case of Naughton), weakening our forward line.

Talking about sharking the opposition's ruck tapping isn't propaganda, it's what any sane and sensible midfield set-up would do if faced with the personnel variances we are every week. Sure it doesn't happen all the time, but it happens and will continue to happen. The idea is to ensure you keep a balance between that and being defencive around stoppages, which is what we've struggled with more than I'd like.

In my opinion (which counts for nothing) we should have won the games against ...

....Gold Coast, Fremantle, North And Collingwood (the second time - the Pies had 100 less possessions, 6 of our players had 30 possessions - so running with the ball isn’t the answer ).

What was a significant common problem in those games? The opponents hitouts to advantage.

That still allows Carlton their first win for the season.

What was done as an attempt to limit this ruck damage? Have another runner who gets less than 10 possessions.

It is not a matter of possibly playing finals. Finals should be a given with this group.

[The Doctor]

Not sure of the timing, but the Swans still took Barry Round.

not sure what you mean but Barry Round joined the Swans about 5 years after Skilton retired

[Danjul]

not sure what you mean but Barry Round joined the Swans about 5 years after Skilton retired

They were looking for a ruckman, possibly so they would not have to rely on sharking the opposition hitouts.

[Go_Dogs]

Yep, easily one of our bests for so many different reasons.

I also liked this week, and last week too, that Bailey Smith has found himself in the position to kick a crucial goal in a very tight match with the heat of opponents on, and he nailed them.

Give it 2 years and we'll iron that out

[Twodogs]

Not sure of the timing, but the Swans still took Barry Round.

The only half decent ruckman that I can find Skilton playing with was Ken Boyd and they only played together for 5 years. Apart from that I cant see any ruckman I have even heard of.

[Danjul]

Gawn 34 hitouts, Preuss 17, total 51. 20 to advantage, means we got the rest of the balls ie 31 ;) - that is why we won. :D

AFL website: clearances

Melbourne 51 with 20 to advantage. Bulldogs 29 with 3 to advantage.

17 possessions to advantage is the equivalent of the disposals by the two Smiths.

Yes, but the Smiths got 3 goals.

Well Melbourne probably got 3 extra goals from stoppages. (guessing 7 compared to 4).

My point is simply ruck is important, and I hope that is incorporated into future decisions.

[Twodogs]

Give it 2 years and we'll iron that out

2 years? I think we would pride ourselves on destroying his goalkicking reliability over the next preseason.

[Bulldog4life]

Coaches Votes:

WESTERN BULLDOGS v MELBOURNE
10 Josh Dunkley (WB)
7 Lachie Hunter (WB)
7 Taylor Duryea (WB)
3 Jack Macrae (WB)
2 Steven May (MELB)
1 Jack Viney (MELB)

[Bulldog4life]

Coaches Votes Leaderboard:

LEADERBOARD
78 Tim Kelly
70 Marcus Bontempelli
68 Patrick Cripps
68 Lachie Neale
65 Ben Cunnington
65 Nat Fyfe
62 Luke Shuey
60 Patrick Dangerfield
60 Brodie Grundy
58 Travis Boak
53 Max Gawn
50 Brad Crouch
48 Dayne Zorko
47 Josh Dunkley
46 Scott Pendlebury
45 Stephen Coniglio
45 Elliot Yeo
44 Tim Taranto
42 Gary Ablett
42 Luke Parker

[Danjul]

Sweet is a mile off being a senior player in my opinion. He's also not the quality tap ruckman many think he is.
He needs another season or so before he might force his way into calculations

Gawn would have run him ragged by half time, Tim actually started putting work into Gawn at times with his mobility

At the moment Sweet doesn't quite have the feel for the game offering little value around the ground but the scope for improvement is there

Was English ready to be the first ruck, based on his VFL form last year?

I think I saw you say no somewhere but I could be wrong (again).

[FrediKanoute]

In my opinion (which counts for nothing) we should have won the games against ...

....Gold Coast, Fremantle, North And Collingwood (the second time - the Pies had 100 less possessions, 6 of our players had 30 possessions - so running with the ball isn’t the answer ).

What was a significant common problem in those games? The opponents hitouts to advantage.

That still allows Carlton their first win for the season.

What was done as an attempt to limit this ruck damage? Have another runner who gets less than 10 possessions.

It is not a matter of possibly playing finals. Finals should be a given with this group.

I thought our kicking for goal in those games killed us as well.......

[jeemak]

I thought our kicking for goal in those games killed us as well.......

Yes, and there were clear passages and extended periods of time in all of those games where we just didn't set the ground up properly and were much too easy to transition and score against.

We've had a mix of issues that have impacted our chances of winning this year, of which hit-outs to advantage or any other in isolation is just one. It's when we play out a game with multiple issues being exposed at different times that we really struggle, but when we only let one or so get exposed for brief periods within games we seem to have the game plan and personnel to provide cover and be highly competitive.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Was English ready to be the first ruck, based on his VFL form last year?

I think I saw you say no somewhere but I could be wrong (again).

English has attributes that keep him in the game longer than Sweet. Even last year English still had more strings to his bow than Sweet does right now.
Right now, Sweet would be a complete liability at all facets of the game, bar possibly the actual ruck contest.

[azabob]

Who was the special comments on the channel 7 coverage?

[bulldogtragic]

Who was the special comments on the channel 7 coverage?

Joel Selwood

[azabob]

Joel Selwood

Really? Thanks. I couldn’t pick the voice

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Sorry, I didn’t see it this way.

1. Melbourne’s rucks kept them in the game. They would have lost by 5 goals otherwise.

2. Ruck is very important and there are disadvantages in not treating it seriously.

we risk Naughton by playing him in the ruck. High injury rate for part time ruckmen.
And we waste Schache by playing him in the ruck. Has contributed nothing this year and it depletes the forward line where he is important.
And we rob the backline by playing Trengove in the ruck.
And we will not be so lucky again when playing Dunkley in the ruck.

3. Gawn’s 14 kicks were more valuable than English’s 6. I would love to see English kick 50 metres as a first option instead of handball. Then he might have been as valuable.

Despite this ruck fiasco the Dogs did win as expected. That is because Dunkley’s 2 goals were better than his brother’s 1. And the rest of the team played well.
From Marc MacGowan - AFL website
8. Hitouts need to be ditched as a mainstream statistic

Melbourne's dual All Australian ruckman Max Gawn dined out on the Western Bulldogs for the umpteenth time on Sunday, but it was the Dogs who won the day. It's a familiar problem for Luke Beveridge and his team, with promising big man Tim English still some way from being a force in the centre. English consistently loses the hitouts by a big margin – just ask Brodie Grundy – but the Bulldogs have found a way to defy that disadvantage. Beveridge calls it being "reactively proactive", with his midfielders conditioned to having to shark the opposition's taps. The Demons won the clearances, but certainly didn't fully capitalise on the armchair ride Gawn gave them. In fact, only 12 of the 208cm ruckman's 34 hitouts were to advantage, whereas he famously had seven to advantage in one quarter against the Dogs last year. That's where hitout numbers can be deceiving, and everyone would be better off including only those to advantage. - Marc McGowan

[Remi Moses]

Staggered by the lack of scrutiny Melbourne haven’t got this year .
The fall has been dramatic , and the whole post season surgeries is this biggest cop out of all time .

[AndrewP6]

Doesn’t make sense if we lose that you would come out smiling.

Because they simply loved playing.

[Twodogs]

Staggered by the lack of scrutiny Melbourne haven’t got this year .
The fall has been dramatic , and the whole post season surgeries is this biggest cop out of all time .

In all honesty I don't think that a lot of people outside of the MSM expected them to back up after last year. When have they ever followed up a good season with another good season? They epitomize the flat track bully type of footy club in that they turn up to play when it suits them and give up all too soon when it doesn't.

The worst thing that the competition bigwigs could have done was to give them players from outside the club like May and Lever because basically it makes it too easy for them. The same as wehen the AFeL gifted them Tyson and Hogan. I'm kinda glad that the AFeL hates us when you see the ham fisted crap they come up when they support you.

[Danjul]

From Marc MacGowan - AFL website
8. Hitouts need to be ditched as a mainstream statistic

Melbourne's dual All Australian ruckman Max Gawn dined out on the Western Bulldogs for the umpteenth time on Sunday, but it was the Dogs who won the day. It's a familiar problem for Luke Beveridge and his team, with promising big man Tim English still some way from being a force in the centre. English consistently loses the hitouts by a big margin – just ask Brodie Grundy – but the Bulldogs have found a way to defy that disadvantage. Beveridge calls it being "reactively proactive", with his midfielders conditioned to having to shark the opposition's taps. The Demons won the clearances, but certainly didn't fully capitalise on the armchair ride Gawn gave them. In fact, only 12 of the 208cm ruckman's 34 hitouts were to advantage, whereas he famously had seven to advantage in one quarter against the Dogs last year. That's where hitout numbers can be deceiving, and everyone would be better off including only those to advantage. - Marc McGowan

I am not sure that I find any any justification or consolation for our ruck problem here.

we are killed in the hitouts to advantage statistic. Elite ruckmen get a bigger percentage of a bigger total. Grundy gets about one third of 50-60 hitouts or +18 against us. Gawn and Preust got 38% of 52 which is about 20. English and Trengove got 3. Good ruckmen get +10.

How much damage does one do? A huge amount. A hitout to advantage can mean an accurate 45m kick into an uncongested forward line, for example.

Grundy’s 18 are after the opposition has Sharked some taps. So it is a problem searching for a better solution.

[bornadog]

I am not sure that I find any any justification or consolation for our ruck problem here.

we are killed in the hitouts to advantage statistic. Elite ruckmen get a bigger percentage of a bigger total. Grundy gets about one third of 50-60 hitouts or +18 against us. Gawn and Preust got 38% of 52 which is about 20. English and Trengove got 3. Good ruckmen get +10.

How much damage does one do? A huge amount. A hitout to advantage can mean an accurate 45m kick into an uncongested forward line, for example.

Grundy’s 18 are after the opposition has Sharked some taps. So it is a problem searching for a better solution.

Well you keep complaining about it every week, but, there is no easy solution for 2019.

Sweet is not the solution, just not good enough, Tom Boyd is probably the player we thought would work with English, and he is gone. We don't have a backman in form so we have to stick Trengove down there.

I just don't get your point bringing up the rucks every week, even when we win.

[1eyedog]

I couldn’t disagree more.

Trengove has at least 2 kicked in him by a kid (Petty), positioned himself poorly numerous times, gave away free kicks, turned it over and was lucky enough to get away with one or two late holds. He was awful.

Cordy was on Petty for two of his goals while Trengove was rucking. Bloke tries his guts out and is solid.

[Dry Rot]

Staggered by the lack of scrutiny Melbourne haven’t got this year .
The fall has been dramatic , and the whole post season surgeries is this biggest cop out of all time .

Same old. https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?17946-Why-are-the-Demons-still-so-piss-weak-in-2018&highlight=demons

[Danjul]

Well you keep complaining about it every week, but, there is no easy solution for 2019.

Sweet is not the solution, just not good enough, Tom Boyd is probably the player we thought would work with English, and he is gone. We don't have a backman in form so we have to stick Trengove down there.

I just don't get your point bringing up the rucks every week, even when we win.


1. To make sure those responsible are under some pressure to make sure the problem is solved before 2020 season begins.

2. To hope someone can improve the matter slightly so our chances of winning are improved in 2019.

3. To move the discussion to a more realistic basis. For example, it does not get hidden behind the fact that English is progressing well, which he certainly is. English is not the problem and never was.

4. Because people are angry that experimentation became a substitute for management. The wooden spoon should never have been a statistical possibility 5 games ago. Supporters did not deserve that.

5. Maybe comments here lead to weaknesses being addressed. The club’s difficulties were exacerbated by the decision to leave Trengove out of the team for the first 5 games, because the culture at the club at the start of the season believed talls and rucks were optional. This led to the Carlton debacle (No Schache and no Trengove and now addressed ).

[jeemak]

I guess we don't understand why you keep flogging this horse when there's been plenty of other issues that caused our malaise over the early parts of the season and continue to expose us - but you don't seem to acknowledge them. It's a bit one-track, and without wanting to sound patronising you clearly understand a lot about the game and our club but don't seem to want to see or include the various sides of our performances when appraising the results.

We get the ruck situation isn't ideal, and was clearly exposed early and continues to be. We actually all agree that it isn't sustainable if we want to take the next step.

But what we seem to see is that there's ways of trying to minimise the impact of the issue and that there are other areas we can concentrate on to increase our competitiveness irrespective of it. The club has stuffed up but is making ground up concentrating on these and those involved should get some credit for it. We've also asked of ourselves what can be done differently with the personnel we have at hand but once the issue continues to be scrutinised we collectively don't seem to be able to come up with a more viable option that will bring us to the level of competitiveness we seem to be displaying right now.

So yes, losing the hit-outs to advantage puts us back a step, but we can't do much about it without cooking other areas of the ground that seem to be functioning pretty well right now - albeit look shaky more than we would like. But what can be done about it in a material sense when we're this deep into the season? And why wouldn't we just enjoy putting some good footy together rather than worrying about the possibility that the season could be worse than it currently is.

We're eight wins and eight losses (already on as many wins as last year) and there's six to play. Green shoots are starting to turn into something more substantial from a quality perspective and we know there is plenty of talent on the list that could immediately lift and develop more strongly as the season progresses and into the future.

It's a tough competition and our young list is showing plenty of guts, is starting to bring effort across the ground each week and be more reliable compared to what it has been, and I'm really happy about that.

[Danjul]

I guess we just don't understand why you keep flogging this horse when there's been plenty of other issues that caused our malaise over the early parts of the season and continue to expose us - but you don't seem to acknowledge them.

We get the ruck situation isn't ideal, and was clearly exposed early and continues to be. We actually all agree that it isn't sustainable if we want to take the next step.

But what we seem to see is that there's ways of trying to minimise the impact of the issue and that there are other areas we can concentrate on to increase our competitiveness irrespective of it. The club has stuffed up but is making ground up concentrating on these and those involved should get some credit for it. We've also asked what can be done differently with the personnel we have at hand but once the issue continues to be scrutinised don't seem to be able to come up with a more viable option that will bring us to the level of competitiveness we seem to be displaying right now.

So yes, losing the hit-outs to advantage puts us back a step, but we can't do much about it without cooking other areas of the ground that seem to be functioning pretty well right now - albeit look shaky more than we would like.


Nice comment. A problem acknowledged is a problem on the way to being solved.

With respect to your first sentence, Not only do I acknowledge them I think they are closely related. I suspect that as the ruck improves some of our entries into the forward line will improve and our scores will improve. (And the opposition scoring will drop.)

Hope to see that soon.

[jeemak]

In all honesty I don't think that a lot of people outside of the MSM expected them to back up after last year. When have they ever followed up a good season with another good season? They epitomize the flat track bully type of footy club in that they turn up to play when it suits them and give up all too soon when it doesn't.

The worst thing that the competition bigwigs could have done was to give them players from outside the club like May and Lever because basically it makes it too easy for them. The same as wehen the AFeL gifted them Tyson and Hogan. I'm kinda glad that the AFeL hates us when you see the ham fisted crap they come up when they support you.

I think at the end of last year they were a bit like us at the end of '92, thought they had a blip in the preliminary final and weren't too far away but were caught out by a competition that was becoming far too competitive to allow for any level of complacency.

[bornadog]

Nice comment. A problem acknowledged is a problem on the way to being solved.

With respect to your first sentence, Not only do I acknowledge them I think they are closely related. I suspect that as the ruck improves some of our entries into the forward line will improve and our scores will improve. (And the opposition scoring will drop.)

Hope to see that soon.

BTW Danjul, I enjoy reading your posts and having the discussion.