Always Right Match Committee Rd 19 vs Fremantle

[GVGjr]

Welcome to the Always Right Match Committee Thread. The Match Committee threads has been named after long time WOOF member Always Right who tragically passed away in March 2018. Check out the link below :)


Always Right (https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?17881-Vale-always-right)

If you were on the Western Bulldogs match committee what changes would you make for our Round 19 games against Fremantle?

For those new to these threads, please give a brief explanation for your changes ... this would add a lot of value to the discussion.

[bulldogtragic]

No change.

[comrade]

No change.

Haha.

[bulldogtragic]

Haha.

We ironically laugh now...

[bornadog]

Schache with concussion may be an issue

[Happy Days]

I'm still pretty pissed off but I'd start with dropping Cordy for Dale Morris (and not Lewis Young).

[westbulldog]

Out Schache (inj?) Cordy Trengove R Smith Suckling
In Lewis Young Sweet Morris West Jong

[Bullies]

Out: R Smith (surely they have seen enough to know he is not up to it), Cordy, Suckling.

In Morris, Lewy Young and West or Jong

[Dry Rot]

Yep, if Schache is out play English forward and then Sweet vs Sandilands.

Sweet's lack of mobility will not be a worry.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think Trengove, Schache, and Suckling (probably dropped anyway) might have some injuries that could present some issues.
Maybe Trengove will be ok, I think he copped a knee in the ribs.
Based on that.

All I know is that Dale Morris has to come in, and I think West needs to get reward for several good weeks. However I think given Hayes was the match day emergency, he might get a guernsey, and I'm not in favour of that.

Outs
Again not definitive, but Cordy surely needs a spell for Morris.
Surely Schache will not be right after his knock, but who can fill his role? Could Lewis Young be a shot? He can fill some minutes in the ruck like Schache does, and has played forward as a junior?
And if Suckling is not injured, he has to be dropped. Maybe Lachie Young come in for him?
Does anyone in the midfield cop it for this week. Lipinski did stuff all, could West come in for him?

[Bumper Bulldogs]

So Schache out. I like Dry Rot’s idea with Sweet in and English up forward

Do we rest Bont. Clearly injured. West to come in surly.

Morris to come in for Cordy.

Happy to give Naughton time in. He back 50 and swap with Trengrove if needed.

[lemmon]

Out- Cordy (been bloody lucky to have played all year), Schache, Roarke Smith

In- Morris, West, Sweet

English going to need some help next week against Freo - should spend a chunk of time forward too.

[bornadog]

Out: Cordy, Schache if he doesn't come up

In: Morris, Roberts (played well today)

Trengove into the ruck, English limited time in the ruck, swapping with Trengove,

I am tempted to get rid of Roarke, but too many changes.

[The bulldog tragician]

G
So Schache out. I like Dry Rot’s idea with Sweet in and English up forward

Do we rest Bont. Clearly injured. West to come in surly.

Morris to come in for Cordy.

Happy to give Naughton time in. He back 50 and swap with Trengrove if needed.

Let’s hope West’s attitude is better than that!

But seriously, I want to see him given a chance next week. :)

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Out: R Smith (surely they have seen enough to know he is not up to it), Cordy, Suckling.

In Morris, Lewy Young and West or Jong

I would add JJ to your players to be dropped. He has been poor for most of the year as he was again today.

[Ghost Dog]

I would add JJ to your players to be dropped. He has been poor for most of the year as he was again today.

Yes agreed. JJ gave away two important goals in the 1stQtr. Not taking the game on. Sorely lacking in confidence.

[Danjul]

Out: Cordy, Schache if he doesn't come up

In: Morris, Roberts (played well today)

Trengove into the ruck, English limited time in the ruck, swapping with Trengove,

I am tempted to get rid of Roarke, but too many changes.

Schache got hurt just in front of me and I couldn’t understand why trainers were not with him immediately.

He should be out for a few weeks, he didn’t know where he was and could not stand up or walk properly.

[LostDoggy]

I’m overseas and didn’t watch the game. I listened to the first half and then went back to enjoying my Italian holiday.

We can’t drop everyone and make wholesale changes.

We need to understand our best 25 going forward, are B Dale, R Smith and Glorious Tory part of it? If not make the call.

Otherwise changes for injury with Mighty Moz, b wiiliams and the son of the west to come in.

[GVGjr]

I suspect there might be two changes with 3 an outside chance

With Schache a likely out for a few weeks our lack of KP depth on the playing list is really being tested

The ins to come from Roberts, Hayes, West, Lachie and Lewis Young.

[bornadog]

Schache got hurt just in front of me and I couldn’t understand why trainers were not with him immediately.

He should be out for a few weeks, he didn’t know where he was and could not stand up or walk properly.

I saw him come to the interchange bench barely able to stand up.

[Danjul]

There’s been a lot of discussion about teams sacking coaches before they play the Dogs.

But there are other similarities between those losses.

1. Short backline syndrome: 3 or more backmen trying to spoil at the same contest, leaving only Saints in the clear 5m from the pack. This led to a number of goals.

2. The Dogs played 10m closer to the boundary line. Sitting behind the goal square this was very obvious. It led to

more handballs, and under pressure,
less margin for error when kicking to teammates
and slower movement forward.

3. Partly because of point 2 the forward entries were often shallow and wide. Only Dale and Dickson were confident kicking at goal. Others tried to pass in a crowded area and turned the ball over.

4. English and Naughton spent a lot of time 30m from goal watching teammates kicking the ball wide (away from them). By the time the ball came in their direction they were in a pack and the kick was too high.

None of these observations have any to do with opposition coaches but all helped us lose.

[Mofra]

I suspect there might be two changes with 3 an outside chance

With Schache a likely out for a few weeks our lack of KP depth on the playing list is really being tested

The ins to come from Roberts, Hayes, West, Lachie and Lewis Young.
Lewie could barely walk properly a couple of weeks ago, I don't think he'll be ready for a couple of weeks.

West looks ready, can we move Lippi forward a bit more and add west tot he midfield rotations? Libba also spent time forward.

[Danjul]

I saw him come to the interchange bench barely able to stand up.

Schache’s injury highlights a problem with how the game is/was managed. He took a long time to get up, obviously didn’t know where he was, eventually staggered towards the bench 100m away. On his way the play followed him. If he had collected the ball and been tackled while concussed the severity of his injury would have been magnified.

The game should have been stopped.

[Bulldog4life]

I suspect there might be two changes with 3 an outside chance

With Schache a likely out for a few weeks our lack of KP depth on the playing list is really being tested

The ins to come from Roberts, Hayes, West, Lachie and Lewis Young.

And Morris must be and in I would think G.

[lemmon]

Lewie could barely walk properly a couple of weeks ago, I don't think he'll be ready for a couple of weeks.

West looks ready, can we move Lippi forward a bit more and add west tot he midfield rotations? Libba also spent time forward.

Wouldn't mind West having a crack as a forward. A lack of forward pressure has been a theme through the year.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Schache’s injury highlights a problem with how the game is/was managed. He took a long time to get up, obviously didn’t know where he was, eventually staggered towards the bench 100m away. On his way the play followed him. If he had collected the ball and been tackled while concussed the severity of his injury would have been magnified.

The game should have been stopped.

The whole incident with Schache was a sham both from the Umpires and the slowness of our training staff to react. The incident occurred close to where we were sitting and he obviously was in a great deal of distress. It was a blight on our game in what could have led to further complications to Schache’s health.

[Bullies]

He also had a blood nose so should have told the umpire to stop for the blood rule

[mjp]

He also had a blood nose so should have told the umpire to stop for the blood rule

To be fair to Josh, I don't think he was totally aware what was going on...his team-mates should have told the umpire though.

[bornadog]

He also had a blood nose so should have told the umpire to stop for the blood rule


To be fair to Josh, I don't think he was totally aware what was going on...his team-mates should have told the umpire though.

I read on Twitter that Mick Malthouse on 774, called him soft for not going up for the ruck contest, after he got up.

[Danjul]

He also had a blood nose so should have told the umpire to stop for the blood rule

Schache was not capable of telling anyone anything. I have never seen any football player in such a disoriented state.

[Danjul]

I read on Twitter that Mick Malthouse on 774, called him soft for not going up for the ruck contest, after he got up.

If I remember correctly Schache was on his hands and knees for a while after the play had moved on. He was obviously trying to remember how to stand up. He needed a few attempts. I hope he can do it properly now.

Malthouse should offer a public apology. What a disgrace!

[Dry Rot]

After what happened to Picken, I'd rest him for the rest of season.

[Dry Rot]

Time to unleash the Beast.

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/2019-07-22/sweets-big-month

[The bulldog tragician]

If I remember correctly Schache was on his hands and knees for a while after the play had moved on. He was obviously trying to remember how to stand up. He needed a few attempts. I hope he can do it properly now.

Malthouse should offer a public apology. What a disgrace!

That fake macho commentary style infuriates me. Brereton also recently dredged up the “it’s a mans game” mantra because Lachie Neale asked to see a doctor because of blurred vision. Our game is brutal. It takes quite enough of a physical toll without that stupid kind of questioning of the masculinity of those that literally risk their lives out there.

[bornadog]

That fake macho commentary style infuriates me. Brereton also recently dredged up the “it’s a mans game” mantra because Lachie Neale asked to see a doctor because of blurred vision. Our game is brutal. It takes quite enough of a physical toll without that stupid kind of questioning of the masculinity of those that literally risk their lives out there.

Game is a lot tougher now than when those cowards played - king hitting when the player wasn't looking.

[bulldogtragic]

That fake macho commentary style infuriates me. Brereton also recently dredged up the “it’s a mans game” mantra because Lachie Neale asked to see a doctor because of blurred vision. Our game is brutal. It takes quite enough of a physical toll without that stupid kind of questioning of the masculinity of those that literally risk their lives out there.

Don't get me started. Young women get forced to live a world where an online world (Insta especially) pressures them to impossible and not real standards. Then these fools try to tell young men that 'real masculinity' is risking your health unnecessarily. Except in EJ Whitten Legends week where these jerks hypocritically tell all men that they should go to the doctor for a preventative appointment (which all men should do). I'm dreading when the enevitable early deaths from concussion start happening and what these jerks will say and how that will drive impressions of young men to put them in an unacceptable position of risk or not - or maybe they can die a honourable man's death, gallant to the end.

I'm so glad I don't have to grow up in this day and age and try to make sense of everything around me and my place in it.

[Axe Man]

In the mix: Who's pushing for selection in round 19? (https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-07-23/in-the-mix-whos-pushing-for-selection-in-round-19)

Western Bulldogs

Get them in: Father-son draftee Rhylee West was best on ground in Footscray's 37-point win over Sandringham. Returning forward Billy Gowers started slowly but worked his way into the match and finished with two goals. Premiership defenders Dale Morris and Fletcher Roberts were rocks in defence for Footscray and gives the Bulldogs options to combat Fremantle's tall forwards this week.

Under the pump: It was the Dogs' first loss in a month but with the experience in reserve there will be some changes. There will be pressure on defender Zaine Cordy, while Luke Beveridge lamented how easily the Saints were able to move out of defence, so the spots held by Roarke Smith and Bailey Smith, who combined for just one tackle on the weekend, could also come under the microscope.

Medical room: Josh Schache sat out the last quarter after suffering a concussion but he remains in the mix to face the Dockers this week. Matt Suckling received treatment on his hip during the loss to the Saints but played out the game. Ed Richards was rested last week with hamstring tightness but is expected to be available for this week.

Toyota WorkHorse Verdict: West, Morris and Richards to come in for Cordy, Suckling and Roarke Smith. - Josh Schonafinger

[hujsh]

I'd drop Suckling and maybe give Schache the week to rest. One of West or Gowers up forward (West really if I'm being honest) and Lewis Young in to either cover Trengove's move forward, to play the forward ruck role or play forward and swing back when Trengove rucks.

If Schache's cherry ripe then maybe Young in for Cordy?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

In what was our worst performance of the year against St Kilda the MC needs to refocus its attention on looking to 2020 by rewarding players who have been performing well in the VFL. Following 3 disappointing seasons it is time to refocus our approach. I would prefer to take a radical approach to selection rather than be content with what is currently being shown.
For these reasons I would make the following changes:
In. Sweet West B Williams Lew and Lach Young and Richards
Out. Schache (inj) Suckling R Smith Cordy Johanissen and Liberatore who has struggled for most of the year and would be better off spending some time in the VFL.
Schache should be rested following his heavy head knock.
Supporters are justifiably frustrated with our indifferent performances now in its third season and deserve better. The whole Football department needs to lift its game.

[Rocket Science]

Oh good, Lyon & his club are copping a concerted public blowtorch this week.

That sounds helpful.

[bornadog]

In. Sweet West B Williams Lew and Lach Young and Richards.

Richards had hamstring tightness last week and may still be injured

[1eyedog]

Oh good, Lyon & his club are copping a concerted public blowtorch this week.

That sounds helpful.

They should sack him to guarantee the win.

[jeemak]

That fake macho commentary style infuriates me. Brereton also recently dredged up the “it’s a mans game” mantra because Lachie Neale asked to see a doctor because of blurred vision. Our game is brutal. It takes quite enough of a physical toll without that stupid kind of questioning of the masculinity of those that literally risk their lives out there.

It's a man's game...….tell that to the AFLW crazies who play it at the most elite and hardest level they can and go completely ballistic towards each other and the footy. It's insulting dinosaur views like this that represent the full picture of how the game is still viewed by some.

In my first senior game I had a head on clash with a player and we were both committed, both ended up concussed and we both ended up back on the ground in the second half. Immediately after it happened I was heading off the ground and tried to contest the footy as it came towards me and I was completely exposed. As soon as I was off I didn't know where I was, and everyone in the rooms at half time lauded me for the contest itself and the fact I tried to compete still - but they shouldn't have as the game clearly should have been stopped until my opponent and I left the ground.

It was dumb going back on, but I was in my first senior game and wanted to make sure everyone knew I was hard even as I was coming off after the initial incident. I remember things got a bit heated and a scuffle broke out later in the game when I'd returned and the slightest brush to the head put me on my arse again, but I stupidly played it out.

Josh has had his hardness questioned and I have no doubt the only thing going through his mind as he was coming off was his base need to prove to people that he is hard as well, and during that time he should have been protected against himself. For dickheads like Malthouse to question him at that time, as above, shows the dinosaur views that are still prevalent within the game.

[Happy Days]

Dermott is a proud MRA. Pretty amazing he still has a job in the AFL media.

[jeemak]

Dermott is a proud MRA. Pretty amazing he still has a job in the AFL media.

For the unwashed of us that means.....?

[AutoFill]

West and Morris are locked in. Schacke, the Bont and Sucking will be out. I’d love to see Sweet debut this week and play out the season. On form alone I’m sure it’s a long shot but he’s getting his hand on the ball a lot.

[1eyedog]

Magnetic resonance angiogram? Macho redneck Asshole?

[Vred]

For the unwashed of us that means.....?

Men's Rights Activist - internet mean guys

[Axe Man]

Bevo has confirmed West to debut and Morris to return.

Bevo Surprises Rhylee West (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2019-07-24/bevo-surprises-rhylee-west)

[Axe Man]

Dermott is a proud MRA. Pretty amazing he still has a job in the AFL media.


Men's Rights Activist - internet mean guys

I thought maybe it was meant to be IRA since Dermott was alleged to have donated money to them. I remember my Grandmother didn't like him because of that rumour (although Dermie has denied it).

[Go_Dogs]

Great Westy is in.

He’s been made to earn his spot and I think he’s going to be hard to dislodge.

[Twodogs]

I suspect there might be two changes with 3 an outside chance

With Schache a likely out for a few weeks our lack of KP depth on the playing list is really being tested

The ins to come from Roberts, Hayes, West, Lachie and Lewis Young.

Another week for Morris in the 2s or should we bring him in too? If he is right to go then I would bring him in.


Schache’s injury highlights a problem with how the game is/was managed. He took a long time to get up, obviously didn’t know where he was, eventually staggered towards the bench 100m away. On his way the play followed him. If he had collected the ball and been tackled while concussed the severity of his injury would have been magnified.

The game should have been stopped.

Agree 100%


He also had a blood nose so should have told the umpire to stop for the blood rule

As a couple of others have said I dont think he knew what his own name was at that stage.


I read on Twitter that Mick Malthouse on 774, called him soft for not going up for the ruck contest, after he got up.

I volunteer to give Mick a thump and let's see how quickly he gets up again...

[Twodogs]

Schache was not capable of telling anyone anything. I have never seen any football player in such a disoriented state.

Jim Edmond was once knocked silly in a game at the SCG v Sydney. The trainer runs out to help him to his feet and the next thing you know Jock has punched him and knocked the trainer into the middle of next week. I reckon that was the worst concussion I have seen, poor Jimmy didn't even know what team he was paying for.


They should sack him to guarantee the win.

Don't. Just don't. We shouldn't even kid about it with our record.


It's a man's game...….tell that to the AFLW crazies who play it at the most elite and hardest level they can and go completely ballistic towards each other and the footy. It's insulting dinosaur views like this that represent the full picture of how the game is still viewed by some.

In my first senior game I had a head on clash with a player and we were both committed, both ended up concussed and we both ended up back on the ground in the second half. Immediately after it happened I was heading off the ground and tried to contest the footy as it came towards me and I was completely exposed. As soon as I was off I didn't know where I was, and everyone in the rooms at half time lauded me for the contest itself and the fact I tried to compete still - but they shouldn't have as the game clearly should have been stopped until my opponent and I left the ground.

It was dumb going back on, but I was in my first senior game and wanted to make sure everyone knew I was hard even as I was coming off after the initial incident. I remember things got a bit heated and a scuffle broke out later in the game when I'd returned and the slightest brush to the head put me on my arse again, but I stupidly played it out.

Josh has had his hardness questioned and I have no doubt the only thing going through his mind as he was coming off was his base need to prove to people that he is hard as well, and during that time he should have been protected against himself. For dickheads like Malthouse to question him at that time, as above, shows the dinosaur views that are still prevalent within the game.

When I was 13 I got selected to play open age cricket for the first time. I was pretty rapt that they thought I was ready at the age of 13 to play against men so I was determined to prove myself. The second or third ball that I faced was short and I got onto position to hook it but I was used to 12 and 13 yos bowling and I wasn't quite quick enough. I can remember the ball flicking my forearm and then it must have smashed into my jaw (I don't remember that bit) and then climbing to my feet to face the next one. But (from what I am told) as the bowler ran in to bowl the next ball I toppled over unconscious and fell to the ground. The ambulance had to come onto the ground and up to the pitch because they thought it was less riskier than stretchering me off the ground to the ambulance. I was in a bad way.


I thought maybe it was meant to be IRA since Dermott was alleged to have donated money to them. I remember my Grandmother didn't like him because of that rumour (although Dermie has denied it).

My dad was on the executive of a trade union that was basically a front for collecting donations to the IRA. It's more common than you would think or at least it was until 11/9/2001 when terrorists became terrorists even if they spoke with an Irish accent.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Another week for Morris in the 2s or should we bring him in too? If he is right to go then I would bring him in...

Bevo announced Moz was back too.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I thought maybe it was meant to be IRA since Dermott was alleged to have donated money to them. I remember my Grandmother didn't like him because of that rumour (although Dermie has denied it).

The Irish have never accepted the brutality the British used to subjugate the citizens of Ireland.
Baby faced assassin, Rhylee West congratulations on you first game. How significant that Dale Morris will join you after yet another injury comeback.

[Rocket Science]

Bevo has confirmed West to debut and Morris to return.

Bevo Surprises Rhylee West (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2019-07-24/bevo-surprises-rhylee-west)

https://i.ibb.co/s5wF3CT/DALE.jpg (https://ibb.co/cbFNTwW)

[bornadog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp-PK-Rpk_A

[BornInDroopSt'54]

If I remember correctly Schache was on his hands and knees for a while after the play had moved on. He was obviously trying to remember how to stand up. He needed a few attempts. I hope he can do it properly now.

Malthouse should offer a public apology. What a disgrace!

Ballarat, a filthy day, freezing, rain blown horizontally on the exposed footie oval in 1969. We were Whitefriars College playing a preseason game against a catholic team, not the mighty St Pats but perhaps a boys home.
They were beating us with hard footy. I chased a ball carrier, got my arms around his front and whacked the ball also punching his nuts accidentally and he swung his elbow flushing my jaw. Next I remember constantly chasing the ball which always seemed to be down the other end to where I was.
I remember games end walking off and saying as a cry for help, "Frank, you won't believe this but I don't know where we are or what we are doing here". Then everybody seemefd to say the same word "concussion" which was comforting but a bit dismissive. I had no recall of what concussion was but anothr of our players had it and I looked at his face and thought it rude and embarrassing. He looked like he would do something stupid.
Later I played under 19s for Beverly Hills in the VAFA thinking it was a fair comp of ball players. A psycho ruckman from Nth Old Boys who was swearing angrily at his mates for not kicking it to him, came out of nowhere just after I had hanballed off and round armed punched me breaking my nose which became a spout of blood. End of playing football for me. This hippy didn't believe in violence.
AFL have done well in eliminating most psychopaths and in identifying head injuries as needing protection.
You are right that Schache was vulnerable and umps should have stopped the game with him in the contested area. If that siren hadn't stopped I may have been still on that oval chasing the far away ball.

[Scraggers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp-PK-Rpk_A

I absolutely love this ... love Bevo's method of interaction with Rhylee and the way Mozz was part of it. As much of the knock that Bevo has received this year as not relating to his players, this five minute video proves to me they're wrong.

[comrade]

Did we miss a trick by not playing Morris & West last week? Having a legendary father-son debut & our veteran defensive hero back in the side may have helped to counter-act the sacked coach dead cat bounce the Saints enjoyed. At the very least, Moz would have shored up the ****-show that was our defensive 50.

[Happy Days]

Did we miss a trick by not playing Morris & West last week? Having a legendary father-son debut & our veteran defensive hero back in the side may have helped to counter-act the sacked coach dead cat bounce the Saints enjoyed. At the very least, Moz would have shored up the ****-show that was our defensive 50.

Would you have played Morris as well as Libba and Caleb? I think we made an error by bringing them both back, seemingly underdone, at the same time. Moz as well may have only compounded that.

[Mantis]

Did we miss a trick by not playing Morris & West last week? Having a legendary father-son debut & our veteran defensive hero back in the side may have helped to counter-act the sacked coach dead cat bounce the Saints enjoyed. At the very least, Moz would have shored up the ****-show that was our defensive 50.

I really struggle how we can fit Morris into a defensive group that already contains Trengove, Cordy & Wood due to the lack of offensive outputs.

Interested to see how we structure up.

[Axe Man]

I really struggle how we can fit Morris into a defensive group that already contains Trengove, Cordy & Wood due to the lack of offensive outputs.

Interested to see how we structure up.

I share your concerns. Taking Trengove out to ruck more may help English but leaves us dangerously undersized against Lobb (if he plays). Perhaps Cordy is squeezed out this week.

[Mofra]

I really struggle how we can fit Morris into a defensive group that already contains Trengove, Cordy & Wood due to the lack of offensive outputs.

Interested to see how we structure up.
I'm waiting to see if Cordy stays in the side given Moz is back. Freo do play tall but Lobb is under an injury cloud as well

[mjp]

So - if Fyfe plays forward, what exactly is our plan?

[Axe Man]

So - if Fyfe plays forward, what exactly is our plan?

We have a few options I would think - Wood, Crozier, or our returning T-800 Model 101 Terminator.

[Doggy]

Just heard on 10 news that West will make his debut this week.:)
And Moz is back!

[Ghost Dog]

That's great news. Thanks for sharing.

[westdog54]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp-PK-Rpk_A

I really, really enjoyed watching that.

Love that they've still got the Domestique jersey for training.

[Doggy]

That's great news. Thanks for sharing.

Oops, thought I had a scoop?:o I probably should have read the previous page before posting.
Anyways congrats to young Westy.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Now I’m pumped for the game against Freo

150 Woody
1st game West
The return of our Heart

[bornadog]

Now I’m pumped for the game against Freo

150 Woody
1st game West
The return of our Heart

Wood played his 150 - 5 games ago. :)

[mjp]

I really struggle how we can fit Morris into a defensive group that already contains Trengove, Cordy & Wood due to the lack of offensive outputs.

Interested to see how we structure up.

Well..Freo loaded up a bit last week and played with Sandilands, Lobb and Darcy...McCarthy played as well. So we are going to need two tall defenders throughout.

Wood actually provided us some run and bounce last week - I think he is going to have his hands full with Fyfe though.

From there, other Freo forwards are going to be Walters (obviously a good player), Matera (having a good season but unlikely to kick more than 2) and Bewley down there...Mundy will take a turn and even the Brad version of the Hills will spend time as a HHF.

If you assume Cordy plays and takes McCarthy, Trengove takes the Lobb/Sandi/Darcy thing and Wood takes Fyfe, well, I am not sure who Morris plays on. Then again, I am not sure who plays on Walters full-stop.

Oh - I would tag Luke Ryan as well. He makes them 'go' from behind the ball and so often sets up as the deepest...needs an elbow in his back. No uncontested intercept marks - actually, just make it no uncontested marks full stop - for Ryan and we will go a long way to stopping their rebound...he only goes at about 90% by foot so stopping him will really impact them. Yes, Wilson is flashy and runs but does blaze away a fair bit...

[Hotdog60]

ROUND 19 SQUAD
B: Dale Morris, Jackson Trengove, Hayden Crozier
HB: Caleb Daniel, Zaine Cordy, Easton Wood
C: Lachie Hunter, Tom Liberatore, Jason Johannisen
HF: Bailey Dale, Aaron Naughton, Sam Lloyd
F: Bailey Smith, Marcus Bontempelli, Tory Dickson
Foll: Tim English, Josh Dunkley, Jack Macrae
Int (ext.): Rhylee West, Taylor Duryea, Ed Richards, Pat Lipinski, Will Hayes, Bailey Williams, Roarke Smith, Jordon Sweet
In: Rhylee West, Ed Richards, Will Hayes, Bailey Williams, Dale Morris, Jordon Sweet
Out: Matt Suckling (back), Josh Schache (concussion)

[westdog54]

Cam McCarthy dropped for Freo.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Cam McCarthy dropped for Freo.

So Lyon is still in. Bewdy, we win

[Rocket Science]

Sweet named in the extended squad interestingly enough despite being a mile off it.

[Danjul]

Sweet named in the extended squad interestingly enough despite being a mile off it.
Sandilands and Lobb.

[Rocket Science]

Sandilands and Lobb.

Sure, but one's injured and the other's a hundred and three.

Assuming Lobb plays since when do we pick talls to combat talls? Particularly when the ruck's involved.

Anyway, just find the messaging interesting. As in, go on Ross, pick em both.

[ratsmac]

FMD Freo or the media are trying thair very best to sack Lyon this week, the week they play the dogs. Teams will go to great lengths for a win :D

There's a lot of innuendo surrounding Ross Lyon and the Stkilda job right now. Will he stay or will he go. Can't they do all this next week and leave us out of it!

[AutoFill]

West and Morris are locked in. Schacke, the Bont and Sucking will be out. I’d love to see Sweet debut this week and play out the season. On form alone I’m sure it’s a long shot but he’s getting his hand on the ball a lot.

Nearly there... better buy a lotto ticket

[Axe Man]

Sweet named in the extended squad interestingly enough despite being a mile off it.

I think they tend to name players that are performing well in the VFL in the extended squad as a bit of encouragement when often they are not actually much chance of being picked at that time.

[Ozza]

Sweet named in the extended squad interestingly enough despite being a mile off it.

Surely doesn't play.

We'd have heard by now if they were debuting someone.

[Mofra]

Sure, but one's injured and the other's a hundred and three.

Assuming Lobb plays since when do we pick talls to combat talls? Particularly when the ruck's involved.

Anyway, just find the messaging interesting. As in, go on Ross, pick em both.
I hope they both play and we go a little shorter.

I can think of only one game this year where talls got a hold of us (the first game against Carlton) where we played Cordy as a sole KPD and our mids were poo anyway.
When we out run the opposition (both ways) we generally win.

[westbulldog]

Sweet named in the extended squad interestingly enough despite being a mile off it.

Shane Warne was "a mile off it" by your definition in 1992 when he got 1/150 in his first test. Why such negativity about Sweet before he has even been given a chance ?

[hujsh]

Shane Warne was "a mile off it" by your definition in 1992 when he got 1/150 in his first test. Why such negativity about Sweet before he has even been given a chance ?

Really? It's not even negativity. Sweet's a long term prospect who's good in the ruck but not really anywhere else at his point.

[Rocket Science]

I'm not ragging on Sweet - who is actually a mile off it - I'd love us to select him and send him out to coathanger anyone who so much as looks at English.

Fingers crossed for the Essendon game.

[Danjul]

Really? It's not even negativity. Sweet's a long term prospect who's good in the ruck but not really anywhere else at his point.

Just to clarify the discussion,

what would Sweet have to do (apart from 40 hitouts) to have a successful game?

I have never seen anyone define success for a Bulldog ruckman.

[Rocket Science]

Just to clarify the discussion,

what would Sweet have to do (apart from 40 hitouts) to have a successful game?

I have never seen anyone define success for a Bulldog ruckman.

I may be wrong but I suspect the prerequisite for being a ruckman in a Bevo-coached squad is that you're actually a ruck rover.

That suggests Sweet has a little bit of work to do.

[The Pie Man]

From what little I've seen of Sweet I was impressed with his aggression and willingness to spoil a pack, and he's very good at the actual ruck contest. Nice long kick too.

Mobility and getting into general play more seems to be a development area.

[hujsh]

Just to clarify the discussion,

what would Sweet have to do (apart from 40 hitouts) to have a successful game?

I have never seen anyone define success for a Bulldog ruckman.

I think if a ruckman can't have an influence around the ground the minimum is that they negate the opposition ruckman.

[bulldogtragic]

I think if a ruckman can't have an influence around the ground the minimum is that they negate the opposition ruckman.

Yep. A good ruckman, young or old, needs to be able to have another string to their bow in addition to ruck craft. Luke Darcy could have the other guy chase him and float forward to kick a goal or two. Scott Wynd could sit in front of full forward, including Tony Lockett and intercept mark. Will Minson owing to rugby scrum game plan of BMac could make repeat efforts after the hit out (averaged 4 tackles a game in 2013), brutalise men and play huge minutes (90+% in 2013). Roughead during the finals was taking the hit outs, but then working across the ground being a target and taking contested marks.

Depending on the game style of the day and the tactics of the senior coach, what's wanted from a ruck may be the above or something else. I think it's a matter of influencing the game somehow outside a ball up/throw in.

[bornadog]

Just to clarify the discussion,

what would Sweet have to do (apart from 40 hitouts) to have a successful game?

I have never seen anyone define success for a Bulldog ruckman.

Am I reading into your post that hitouts is the measure of success for a ruckman? If so, that is very 1980s

The benchmark is Grundy, just see what he does.

[Danjul]

Am I reading into your post that hitouts is the measure of success for a ruckman? If so, that is very 1980s

The benchmark is Grundy, just see what he does.

So Sweet does not get a game until he is as good as Grundy. Fair enough.


[I checked the stats for this year:
Grundy has over 700 hitouts, the whole Bulldog team has under 400.]

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So Sweet does not get a game until he is as good as Grundy. Fair enough.

No, but he has to not be a significant liability in other aspects of our gameplan.
Tim English may not yet be able to compete with Gawn, Grundy tapwise, but as has been highlighted by footy analysts he does compete in his movement around the ground, meaning he can run off to create or defend.
Sweet from reports does not yet have the tank to sustain movement around the ground.
He may win a heap of hit outs, and we may benefit 6-10 times directly from that. but if by his inability to cover the ground creates a dozen or more holes in our zone that are exploited, that is not a positive outcome.

[Danjul]

No, but he has to not be a significant liability in other aspects of our gameplan.
Tim English may not yet be able to compete with Gawn, Grundy tapwise, but as has been highlighted by footy analysts he does compete in his movement around the ground, meaning he can run off to create or defend.
Sweet from reports does not yet have the tank to sustain movement around the ground.
He may win a heap of hit outs, and we may benefit 6-10 times directly from that. but if by his inability to cover the ground creates a dozen or more holes in our zone that are exploited, that is not a positive outcome.

When the supporters got their first look at English playing for the Dogs in 2017 he got 7 disposals and 5 hitouts. You are saying Sweet is nowhere near that standard. I can’t argue with that.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That's a bloody strawman argument, and if that's indicative of the level of good faith your going to bring to a discussion then have a nice day.

[Axe Man]

When the supporters got their first look at English playing for the Dogs in 2017 he got 7 disposals and 5 hitouts. You are saying Sweet is nowhere near that standard. I can’t argue with that.

I was at that game and I'm pretty sure English played forward and not in the ruck - Roughy and Tom Boyd shared ruck duties.

[bornadog]

Dale Morris,
Rhylee West,
Ed Richards


OUT


Josh Schache (Injured),
Roarke Smith (Omitted),
Matthew Suckling (Injured)



NEW

[bulldogtragic]

Side discussion. Genuine question. Is that the end of Roarke Smith at the dogs? If this month was his make or break time at the level, and he played one ok game in the wet, and he's now dropped. Are his papers stamped as a good VFL player?

[Axe Man]

Hayden Ballantyne back for Freo - I genuinely didn't realise he was still on their list.

[Danjul]

That's a bloody strawman argument, and if that's indicative of the level of good faith your going to bring to a discussion then have a nice day.

Not at all. The discussion was about getting a look at a recruit in his first game. I have not seen Sweet play so I don’t know how good/bad he is. You are suggesting that he will be a significant liability.

Simply for reference.....

In his first season with us Boyd averaged 8 disposals, a goal and 3 hitouts.

In his first season English was younger and got two games. Both 7 disposals and 5 hitouts. Looked promising.
In his second year he had improved to averages of 14 and 14.

Is Sweet being held to a different standard for his first game?

Or, as some say here, he is not going to get half a dozen disposals and hitouts.

[divvydan]

Assuming Lobb stays fwd all game, English will be up against both Sandi and Darcy. Likely to get monstered strength wise by both at ruck contests so he really needs to keep his distance as best as possible, then run them both off their legs after the contest. If either 2 or all 3 ruck, the big danger is how much they can work him over phyiscally.

[mjp]

Just to clarify the discussion,

what would Sweet have to do (apart from 40 hitouts) to have a successful game?

I have never seen anyone define success for a Bulldog ruckman.

It's actually a pretty good question.

The first step would be to work out whether he is leading the ruck (> 70% game time) or operating as a backup/support ruckman.

Leading the ruck:

- 50% of hitouts with 1x hit to advantage per quarter.
- 1x mark per half
- 1% count around 10-12
- Possessions in the 6-10 range with high effectiveness (he wouldn't have a kicking license so would be on a handball/kick over 40m rule I suspect.

Support role:

- 35% hitouts whilst in the ruck and 'even' at clearances.
- 3-4 marks for the game
- 6-10 possessions at high efficiency.
- 1% count in the 4-8 range (not as many clearances so tackles and blocks would drop).

Something like that?

The challenge with a player like Sweet is he is going to be like Jack Witts/Dawson Simpson were 6-8 years ago. He will win 70% of the ruck hitouts with 1-2 to advantage per quarter. But wouldn't be capable around the ground and hence couldn't play in the support role...

It is very hard for ruckman as they have no chance to develop outside of being played in the VFL. English is pretty unique at the moment in that he is getting 1st ruck development minutes in the AFL and the club is counting on two things:

1/. It works and he becomes a star.
2/. He becomes a star and stays at our footy club.

Ultimately most good ruckman are > sum of the parts/sum of the stats and sometimes the dominant ruckman in the game from a physical impact perspective appears to have lost the match-up based on the stats. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who wins the hit-out IF the other ruckman is simply contacting the arm (rather than the ball) and ensuring it doesn't get to the defined hit zone...if you compete hard, tackle and provide a strong contest for down the line kicks, what else do you really need to do???

Collingwood got an amazing game out of Grundy last week and it didn't make a lick of difference - they were smashed. Richmond are in a pretty awesome run of form with what (based on names alone) would be the worlds worst ruck division. It is a unique position and one that is particularly difficult to measure on stats alone...

[The bulldog tragician]

It's actually a pretty good question.

The first step would be to work out whether he is leading the ruck (> 70% game time) or operating as a backup/support ruckman.

Leading the ruck:

- 50% of hitouts with 1x hit to advantage per quarter.
- 1x mark per half
- 1% count around 10-12
- Possessions in the 6-10 range with high effectiveness (he wouldn't have a kicking license so would be on a handball/kick over 40m rule I suspect.

Support role:

- 35% hitouts whilst in the ruck and 'even' at clearances.
- 3-4 marks for the game
- 6-10 possessions at high efficiency.
- 1% count in the 4-8 range (not as many clearances so tackles and blocks would drop).

Something like that?

The challenge with a player like Sweet is he is going to be like Jack Witts/Dawson Simpson were 6-8 years ago. He will win 70% of the ruck hitouts with 1-2 to advantage per quarter. But wouldn't be capable around the ground and hence couldn't play in the support role...

It is very hard for ruckman as they have no chance to develop outside of being played in the VFL. English is pretty unique at the moment in that he is getting 1st ruck development minutes in the AFL and the club is counting on two things:

1/. It works and he becomes a star.
2/. He becomes a star and stays at our footy club.

Ultimately most good ruckman are > sum of the parts/sum of the stats and sometimes the dominant ruckman in the game from a physical impact perspective appears to have lost the match-up based on the stats. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who wins the hit-out IF the other ruckman is simply contacting the arm (rather than the ball) and ensuring it doesn't get to the defined hit zone...if you compete hard, tackle and provide a strong contest for down the line kicks, what else do you really need to do???

Collingwood got an amazing game out of Grundy last week and it didn't make a lick of difference - they were smashed. Richmond are in a pretty awesome run of form with what (based on names alone) would be the worlds worst ruck division. It is a unique position and one that is particularly difficult to measure on stats alone...

Love your knowledgeable contributions mjp, you always get me thinking differently about the game.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It's actually a pretty good question.

The first step would be to work out whether he is leading the ruck (> 70% game time) or operating as a backup/support ruckman.

Leading the ruck:

- 50% of hitouts with 1x hit to advantage per quarter.
- 1x mark per half
- 1% count around 10-12
- Possessions in the 6-10 range with high effectiveness (he wouldn't have a kicking license so would be on a handball/kick over 40m rule I suspect.

Support role:

- 35% hitouts whilst in the ruck and 'even' at clearances.
- 3-4 marks for the game
- 6-10 possessions at high efficiency.
- 1% count in the 4-8 range (not as many clearances so tackles and blocks would drop).

Something like that?

The challenge with a player like Sweet is he is going to be like Jack Witts/Dawson Simpson were 6-8 years ago. He will win 70% of the ruck hitouts with 1-2 to advantage per quarter. But wouldn't be capable around the ground and hence couldn't play in the support role...

It is very hard for ruckman as they have no chance to develop outside of being played in the VFL. English is pretty unique at the moment in that he is getting 1st ruck development minutes in the AFL and the club is counting on two things:

1/. It works and he becomes a star.
2/. He becomes a star and stays at our footy club.

Ultimately most good ruckman are > sum of the parts/sum of the stats and sometimes the dominant ruckman in the game from a physical impact perspective appears to have lost the match-up based on the stats. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who wins the hit-out IF the other ruckman is simply contacting the arm (rather than the ball) and ensuring it doesn't get to the defined hit zone...if you compete hard, tackle and provide a strong contest for down the line kicks, what else do you really need to do???

Collingwood got an amazing game out of Grundy last week and it didn't make a lick of difference - they were smashed. Richmond are in a pretty awesome run of form with what (based on names alone) would be the worlds worst ruck division. It is a unique position and one that is particularly difficult to measure on stats alone...

Would the ability to have the aerobic capacity to work and move around the ground be a required skill set if a young ruckman ala English was not able to provide a dominant role at ruck contests? Flipside would a ruckman who was dominant in the primary ruck contest be able to play if they did not have the ability to positively contribute in other facets of play?
I get the impression the club are willing to play English because whilst not yet dominant in ruck contests, he does contribute in other facets of play at a level that is greater than his shortcomings in the ruck contest itself.
Conversely, Sweet might be able to compete strongly at ruck contests, nut at present would not be aerobically ready to work around the ground, and that this would be a liability greater than his contributions at the ruck contest.

[bornadog]

Side discussion. Genuine question. Is that the end of Roarke Smith at the dogs? If this month was his make or break time at the level, and he played one ok game in the wet, and he's now dropped. Are his papers stamped as a good VFL player?

He hasn't hit the sockeye salmon 20 game test yet, but I can't see what he brings to the table.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Side discussion. Genuine question. Is that the end of Roarke Smith at the dogs? If this month was his make or break time at the level, and he played one ok game in the wet, and he's now dropped. Are his papers stamped as a good VFL player?

I definitely think Roarke has shown improvement. Is it enough to save him? I don't think so. I wonder whether he's a delist with a view to redraft as a rookie if he's amenable to that?

[bornadog]

I definitely think Roarke has shown improvement. Is it enough to save him? I don't think so. I wonder whether he's a delist with a view to redraft as a rookie if he's amenable to that?

Roarke is still a rookie.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Roarke is still a rookie.

D'oh.. then gonski i suspect.

[mjp]

Would the ability to have the aerobic capacity to work and move around the ground be a required skill set if a young ruckman ala English was not able to provide a dominant role at ruck contests? Flipside would a ruckman who was dominant in the primary ruck contest be able to play if they did not have the ability to positively contribute in other facets of play?.

I think this is the million $ question. I also think the cynical answer would be ‘whatever the attributes are of our recent 1st round draft pick, those are the ones we want to see despite other shortcomings’ - but I do think it is easier to persist with a young ruckman such as English who involve some himself in ball movement than it is a young ruckman similar to Max Gawn who once upon a time was a hit out machine who was unable to impact with ball in hand.

It is hard to develop ruckman because only one can play at a time. It always amazes me that the commentary is always ‘big blokes take longer’ rather than challenging WHY that is the case. A young mid such as Smith can easily be inserted into a rotation (in 2019 at least - it was a bit harder in 1980!) whereas a young ruckman generally speaking doesn’t get that chance. I think what the club Ian trying to do with English is pretty admirable and clearly shows a MC who have at least one eye on Achieving success for the long-term over winning right now...but exactly how much short term distress they are prepared to go with I really don’t know.

There has been a lot of talk about the lack of support given English, the lack of alternatives on the list etc...at some point we all need to acknowledge that a deliberate plan is in place and English is at the centre of it. Will it work? Who knows? Was it conceived before or after dalrymple selected him? Who knows?

[mjp]

Love your knowledgeable contributions mjp, you always get me thinking differently about the game.

Thanks - I appreciate that.

I know I can be a bit of an arse as well but I am trying hard not to be that way (quite so much anyway).

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think this is the million $ question. I also think the cynical answer would be ‘whatever the attributes are of our recent 1st round draft pick, those are the ones we want to see despite other shortcomings’ - but I do think it is easier to persist with a young ruckman such as English who involve some himself in ball movement than it is a young ruckman similar to Max Gawn who once upon a time was a hit out machine who was unable to impact with ball in hand.

It is hard to develop ruckman because only one can play at a time. It always amazes me that the commentary is always ‘big blokes take longer’ rather than challenging WHY that is the case. A young mid such as Smith can easily be inserted into a rotation (in 2019 at least - it was a bit harder in 1980!) whereas a young ruckman generally speaking doesn’t get that chance. I think what the club Ian trying to do with English is pretty admirable and clearly shows a MC who have at least one eye on Achieving success for the long-term over winning right now...but exactly how much short term distress they are prepared to go with I really don’t know.

There has been a lot of talk about the lack of support given English, the lack of alternatives on the list etc...at some point we all need to acknowledge that a deliberate plan is in place and English is at the centre of it. Will it work? Who knows? Was it conceived before or after dalrymple selected him? Who knows?

Hypothetical. If English were unavailable to us this week. Clearly Sweet would have to come in. Would his inclusion require a major change in what we do to try and win? That is, it appears right now, we're accepting that Tim will in a best case scenario break even in the ruck, but his ability to work around the ground and in essence contribute in other facets. If Sweet came in, he would not likely be able to contribute in our current style. What would we need to do to enable his shortcomings not cost us dearly. Could we play the same style of game, knowing the opposition would likely have a free man to link up with around the ground?

[mjp]

Hypothetical. If English were unavailable to us this week. Clearly Sweet would have to come in.

I don’t think he would. We would just ruck Trengove and play Williams as a defensive rotator.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I don’t think he would. We would just ruck Trengove and play Williams as a defensive rotator.

That is insightful.
And look, I'm not anti-Sweet, but that he would not get a game if English were not available speaks volumes to where he is in his development and to what he could offer our team right now.
I hope he can work on his game and present well next year to be able to bring his attributes to the table as a net positive and not an overall liability outside of his ruck work.

[Mofra]

There has been a lot of talk about the lack of support given English, the lack of alternatives on the list etc...at some point we all need to acknowledge that a deliberate plan is in place and English is at the centre of it. Will it work? Who knows? Was it conceived before or after dalrymple selected him? Who knows?
I'll jump in an ask if the plan is in fact deliberate.

All pre-season Trengove 'had the pads on' and the club was bullish about English impacting forward, while Naughton spent his whole pre-season in defence. This was shelved after JLT 1, and in JLT 2 English and Trengove were each given a half as sole ruck to see who took the round 1 spot.

I suspect English's growing ability to provide an aerial presence around the ground means we'll stick with this plan as it stands.

Given we went very short in defence at the start of the year (Cordy as sole KPD) the overriding concern seems to be run anyway. Our being linked to quick players indicates the club still see this as a concern.

[jeemak]

Well perhaps the plan is now based around two people. English and Naughton.

Plans can change, there's nothing wrong with that if done for the right reasons.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

This would have been the ideal game to blood Sweet against the three big Freo followers. Having played in a SAGF League Premiership last year and with a strong body it would have allowed English to play a key forward role predominantly with an occasional run on the ball. Tim has demonstrated that he has the skills to play forward. At the moment we rob ourself of a key defender in Trengrove when Tim requires a spell as the main ruck man. Our forward line hasn’t functioned for most of the year and this would have provided an opportunity to look at a different structure considering also that Schache is out injured

[BornInDroopSt'54]

[QUOTE=BornInDroopSt'54;649430]Ballarat, a filthy day, freezing, rain blown horizontally on the exposed footie oval in 1969. We were Whitefriars College playing a preseason game against a catholic team, not the mighty St Pats but perhaps a boys home.
They were beating us with hard footy. I chased a ball carrier, got my arms around his front and whacked the ball also punching his nuts accidentally and he swung his elbow flushing my jaw. Next I remember constantly chasing the ball which always seemed to be down the other end to where I was.
I remember games end walking off and saying as a cry for help, "Frank, you won't believe this but I don't know where we are or what we are doing here". Then everybody seemefd to say the same word "concussion" which was comforting but a bit dismissive. I had no recall of what concussion was but anothr of our players had it and I looked at his face and thought it rude and embarrassing. He looked like he would do something stupid.
Later I played under 19s for Beverly Hills in the VAFA thinking it was a fair comp of ball players. A psycho ruckman from Nth Old Boys who was swearing angrily at his mates for not kicking it to him, came out of nowhere just after I had hanballed off and round armed punched me breaking my nose which became a spout of blood. End of playing football for me. This hippy didn't believe in violence.
AFL have done well in eliminating most psychopaths and in identifying head injuries as needing protection.
You are right that Schache was vulnerable and umps should have stopped the game with him in the contested area.
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/collingwood/concussed-collingwood-defender-jordan-roughead-thought-he-was-playing-for-the-western-bulldogs-last-week/news-story/4a8684820c908e7c682ff02a2e5fdbcc?fbclid=IwAR1kRFm-8Y_R7BFvklE8nYC97WjLfnFbEJbGoB6-3Re2oY2kj0SWCUhHMvI