Three things you have learned-round 20 v Brisbane 2019

[Twodogs]

Three things you've learned today.

[bulldogtragic]

1. To quote Plough's texta on his forehead in 1997 prelim review to the players: We blew it.
2. If Bonts got treated like Dangerfield, or even a Pendlebury, he'd actually get a lot frees and be even more damaging.
3. Picken & Boyd gone. Morris 38 next year, two years out, 3 ACL injuries recently - retire our hero. Dicko should retire, his class touch is failing. Webb is made from whatever Tommy Williams body was made out of and unfortunately it's not made for afl. Suckers go do the NFL thing. Roberts thanks for your service, and being a premiership player. Williams papers look stamped too. Wood you have a contract expiring next year, lift your bloody game.

[comrade]

1. Our defensive group is overall one of the worst in the competition. Shocking foot skills, vulnerable one on one, slow (outside of JJ). We need to inject some talent because Trengove, Cordy & Wood just wont cut it as a collective.

2. Bont is a freakazoid. 7+ goal loss without him

3. He was able to keep me quiet for the first half of the year, but I don’t think I’ve ever disliked watching a Bulldogs player more than Suckling.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

1. Schache and Naughts is going to be a very potent forward combo, especially if Naughts can improve his goalkicking.
2. Until we can stop having regular halves or quarters of footy where we just crap our pants, no amount of heroics after the fact are going to regularly see us win enough games of footy.
3. Suckling is cooked.

[merantau]

The first time I saw Suckling near the ball was when he took a kick in late in the second quarter. I think his time is up.

We simply butcher the ball going inside 50.

It's hard to win when you have so many passengers.

[westbulldog]

repeat repeat, Trengove and Cordy try hard but are not up to it as KPD's, we need to recruit one or two.
11.14 and still no specialist goalkicking coach.
Either Bontempelli or Cripps will win the brownlow.

[Eastdog]

repeat repeat, Trengove and Cordy try hard but are not up to it as KPD's, we need to recruit one or two.
11.14 and still no specialist goalkicking coach.
Either Bontempelli or Cripps will win the brownlow.

This is something we seriously we need. We have to get someone to teach our guys how to kick for goal - get back to basics. Our delivery into the forward 50 was poor in the 1st half just bombing it long but much better in the 2nd half kicking it to more short targets which made it easier. So it is both really that need work.

[jeemak]

1. Our disposal forward of centre on the break is still a major weakness. Even the kicks that do find a way to a target are often sluggish or slightly off the mark, and it drops us back to behind the transition of the opposition defence and makes it just that bit easier to score. I thought we were working our way out of this gradually, today was a step backwards

2. When both Dickson and Lloyd are off their food at the same time the forward line looks impotent. There just wasn't that feeling of danger for Brisbane and it shows how much we need a zippy forward who can frighten the willies out of and spread defences with forward run or crumbing ability. Both Dickson and Lloyd applied themselves and tackled, but they are a bit samey with each other pace wise and were easily accounted for by an organised Lions defence close to goal

3. In games and now in season we are genuinely the masters of our own destiny. Because of our structure we need full commitment to concentration on team defence and ball use, because we're vulnerable back and forward but elite in the middle. Get the focus right and we can take our opportunities when they present, and that eases pressure on the defence. We didn't do that early today and that set the tone for the game. If we do it for the coming three matches we're still a chance at finals

[AutoFill]

1. Our forward line disfunction is caused by kicking the ball to our small forwards on the lead and ignoring our talls. That means no crumbers and our talls become irrelevant.

2. When you know your not good enough, you give away a lot of frees by holding the oppositions jumper or you blaze away because you just need to be rid of it.

3. When you have a height advantage in the ruck, in the middle just get under the ball and jump vertically rather that try to jump over someone.

[AshMac]

1. Brisbane are the real deal. Top end talent all over the ground - we are their measure. That was a very winnable game and I feel we lost that game more than they won it.

2. Some really poor performances from some of our more senior defenders. In part caused by skill errors further up the ground

3. Tory Dickson is such a clever player. If he can maintain his presence and fitness then I think he deserves another year. Don’t see it happening though



Bonus gripe: the umpires didn’t cost us that game but god does naughton get held/pushed out of marking contests and bont get held at the stoppages!!

[bornadog]

1. Have been saying for a long time Cordy is not a Key PP, rather should take the third tall, but, we have no choice. Having said that, Cordy gives his all.

2. Dickson, Dale, Lloyd - doesn't work together.

3. We panick when we get anywhere near the F50.

[Bulldog4life]

Coulda shoulda won this game. But we didn't.

Cordy should train over summer as a forward.

This has to be Suckers last season.

[Danjul]

1. Our forward line disfunction is caused by kicking the ball to our small forwards on the lead and ignoring our talls. That means no crumbers and our talls become irrelevant.

2. When you know your not good enough, you give away a lot of frees by holding the oppositions jumper or you blaze away because you just need to be rid of it.

3. When you have a height advantage in the ruck, in the middle just get under the ball and jump vertically rather that try to jump over someone.

An astute observation. The lead often puts them too wide and on their kicking limit.

Also, a spill allows the defenders to clear the 50 easily.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

1, I think we miss a Gowers, Stringer type in the forward 50. What has gone wrong with Gowers. Has he lost motivation, does he have behaviour issues. See s strange that after last year he can’t get a game now.

2, why are our players not right between the ears. We just seem to be fragile and have no mental toughness

3, since the flag. We have uncovered some ripping kids and a lot of talent, so why are we not a force. We don’t have a huge injury list. We trade and seem to do Ok but it’s not showing on the field. If you look at Brisbane we finished why higher than them three years ago. Have they traded better than us? Have the a better coaching staff? Do the have better facilities?
Surely they can’t be sitting second on the ladder and gone past us with out the club screaming out fir a review on the footy department.

[Danjul]

1, I think we miss a Gowers, Stringer type in the forward 50. What has gone wrong with Gowers. Has he lost motivation, does he have behaviour issues. See s strange that after last year he can’t get a game now.
He
2, why are our players not right between the ears. We just seem to be fragile and have no mental toughness

3, since the flag. We have uncovered some ripping kids and a lot of talent, so why are we not a force. We don’t have a huge injury list. We trade and seem to do Ok but it’s not showing on the field. If you look at Brisbane we finished why higher than them three years ago. Have they traded better than us? Have the a better coaching staff? Do the have better facilities?
Surely they can’t be sitting second on the ladder and gone past us with out the club screaming out fir a review on the footy department.

Gowers was given a new role when Naughton became the forward line.

Like others, he did not successfully manage his transition.

[Bulldog Joe]

3, since the flag. We have uncovered some ripping kids and a lot of talent, so why are we not a force. We don’t have a huge injury list. We trade and seem to do Ok but it’s not showing on the field. If you look at Brisbane we finished why higher than them three years ago. Have they traded better than us? Have the a better coaching staff? Do the have better facilities?
Surely they can’t be sitting second on the ladder and gone past us with out the club screaming out fir a review on the footy department.

Well since 2016, we have lost significant experience from an inexperienced team.
Boyd, Picken, Dahlhaus, Roughead, Morris were our more experienced players.

Brisbane in that same time frame have added experience:

Cameron, Christensen, Hodge, Lyons and Neale make up half of their +100 gamers from this week. Added to that are several years of high draft picks maturing in what is now a good environment.

They were always the best chance as 2019 improvers.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Well since 2016, we have lost significant experience from an inexperienced team.
Boyd, Picken, Dahlhaus, Roughead, Morris were our more experienced players.

Brisbane in that same time frame have added experience:

Cameron, Christensen, Hodge, Lyons and Neale make up half of their +100 gamers from this week. Added to that are several years of high draft picks maturing in what is now a good environment.

They were always the best chance as 2019 improvers.

Not sure that this stacks up. We traded Dahl and Rough. Added Lloyd, Crozier, Trengrove. Surely their is more behind the scenes than we know.

[Danjul]

Well since 2016, we have lost significant experience from an inexperienced team.
Boyd, Picken, Dahlhaus, Roughead, Morris were our more experienced players.

Brisbane in that same time frame have added experience:

Cameron, Christensen, Hodge, Lyons and Neale make up half of their +100 gamers from this week. Added to that are several years of high draft picks maturing in what is now a good environment.

They were always the best chance as 2019 improvers.

Interesting fact about Cameron, he only had 13 possessions and none were handballs.

Interesting fact about Rich, he had 17 possessions and none were handballs.

The Lions also had 2 players with 1 handball.

So 4 players, 53 possessions, 2 handballs.

Add in Hodge and you have 65 possessions, 4 handballs.

Anything to learn here?

[bornadog]

Not sure that this stacks up. We traded Dahl and Rough. Added Lloyd, Crozier, Trengrove. Surely their is more behind the scenes than we know.

The make up of the two teams is extremely different which has happened in the past two years.

We are now much younger and inexperienced than Brisbane. They had an average of 20 games per player and a whole year older on Sunday.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

The make up of the two teams is extremely different which has happened in the past two years.

We are now much younger and inexperienced than Brisbane. They had an average of 20 games per player and a whole year older on Sunday.

Ok then if age profile is our problem, how do we fix it? Many on here are calling for Trengrove, Dickson and Suckers to retire. Lin Jong, Roberts, Hayes cant get a game, Wallis could go to Essendon. Libba could also be another Clay Smith and retire. Morris could also be gone at years end.

Do we need to continue being the youngest side week in week out? recruiting more kids.

Or do we really need some older guys at this years draft.

MaCrae, Hunter, Lloyd, Wood Duryea and JJ

Do you think we might have been a little quick to move on Dahlhaus, Roughy and Hamling. Also what about Jake, I don't hear of him playing up at all out of Essendon, Couldn't our senior coaches do the Job just like Essendon?

[bornadog]

Ok then if age profile is our problem, how do we fix it? Many on here are calling for Trengrove, Dickson and Suckers to retire. Lin Jong, Roberts, Hayes cant get a game, Wallis could go to Essendon. Libba could also be another Clay Smith and retire. Morris could also be gone at years end.

Do we need to continue being the youngest side week in week out? recruiting more kids.

Or do we really need some older guys at this years draft.

MaCrae, Hunter, Lloyd, Wood Duryea and JJ

Do you think we might have been a little quick to move on Dahlhaus, Roughy and Hamling. Also what about Jake, I don't hear of him playing up at all out of Essendon, Couldn't our senior coaches do the Job just like Essendon?

I don't want to go over old ground with the players you have mentioned, but I think we aren't too far off with the players we still have. It is just a matter of a couple of more good preseasons and guys like Naughton, English, Richards, Smith etc will have more experience and more consistency.

Yes, we need to trade for a good KPP for the backline and perhaps some outside run in the midfield and a goal sneak.

My answer to you was in regards to the difference between Brisbane and us on the weekend. Brisbane have gone through a few years of pain and are now reaping the rewards.

[hujsh]

Interesting fact about Cameron, he only had 13 possessions and none were handballs.

Interesting fact about Rich, he had 17 possessions and none were handballs.

The Lions also had 2 players with 1 handball.

So 4 players, 53 possessions, 2 handballs.

Add in Hodge and you have 65 possessions, 4 handballs.

Anything to learn here?
Brisbane kick more than any other team in the league relative to handballs IIRC. They’re successful with this style partly because it matches or suits the players they have. Simply copying Brisbane because they beat us on the weekend probably won’t help us beat them or improve as a club. Richmond handball more and are in just as good form. However we play it needs to suit the resources we have.

[Danjul]

Brisbane kick more than any other team in the league relative to handballs IIRC. They’re successful with this style partly because it matches or suits the players they have. Simply copying Brisbane because they beat us on the weekend probably won’t help us beat them or improve as a club. Richmond handball more and are in just as good form. However we play it needs to suit the resources we have.

My observations suggest (and I welcome correction) that when the Dogs have a better kick to handball ratio they win.

Last 6 games:

218%. W
151%. W
151%. W
139%. L
147%. W
132%. L

They can kick effectively.

[Danjul]

Brisbane kick more than any other team in the league relative to handballs IIRC. They’re successful with this style partly because it matches or suits the players they have. Simply copying Brisbane because they beat us on the weekend probably won’t help us beat them or improve as a club. Richmond handball more and are in just as good form. However we play it needs to suit the resources we have.

Last two games for Richmond: kick/handball

159%. W
145%. W

Both significantly higher than opponents.

[Mofra]

I don't want to go over old ground with the players you have mentioned, but I think we aren't too far off with the players we still have. It is just a matter of a couple of more good preseasons and guys like Naughton, English, Richards, Smith etc will have more experience and more consistency.

Yes, we need to trade for a good KPP for the backline and perhaps some outside run in the midfield and a goal sneak.
We've all but stated we want to be big players during trade week and bring in experienced players. It's definitely something the club are aware of.

[Danjul]

Brisbane kick more than any other team in the league relative to handballs IIRC. They’re successful with this style partly because it matches or suits the players they have. Simply copying Brisbane because they beat us on the weekend probably won’t help us beat them or improve as a club. Richmond handball more and are in just as good form. However we play it needs to suit the resources we have.
It did When we defeated them early in the year .

our kick/handball ratio was 150%.

[The bulldog tragician]

Brisbane reminded me of us in 2008 in their game style. The extra heat in finals often means skilled teams fall apart as we frequently did. Our premiership team had plenty of average kicks who delivered under extreme pressure. Of course I’d love us to be cleaner but sometimes the whole is greater than the parts. I’m not sure how many times it’s poor kicking and how many times it’s taking a wrong option, lack of confidence in teammates, or a game plan either not well enough polished or not right in the first place.

[hujsh]

Last two games for Richmond: kick/handball

159%. W
145%. W

Both significantly higher than opponents.
And the week before that they had more handballs than kicks (an unusual feat) and smashed Port and the week before was 227-178 (127%) and smashed GWS.

[hujsh]

My observations suggest (and I welcome correction) that when the Dogs have a better kick to handball ratio they win.

Last 6 games:

218%. W
151%. W
151%. W
139%. L
147%. W
132%. L

They can kick effectively.
That seems to generally be true but correlation is not causation. Why did we win those games? It is because we kicked more? Is part of the reason that we kicked more? Is it a side effect of dominating the game in other aspects?

[bornadog]

Brisbane reminded me of us in 2008 in their game style. The extra heat in finals often means skilled teams fall apart as we frequently did. Our premiership team had plenty of average kicks who delivered under extreme pressure. Of course I’d love us to be cleaner but sometimes the whole is greater than the parts. I’m not sure how many times it’s poor kicking and how many times it’s taking a wrong option, lack of confidence in teammates, or a game plan either not well enough polished or not right in the first place.

I don't believe overall it is our kicking. We lead the AFL for Disposal efficiency (1st) and effective disposals (2nd).

I think it is what you have said, ie taking wrong options through decision making as well as panicking in the F50, thinking we are about to get caught and just blazing away. This will improve with a bit more experience. You can see it in Richards who is often seen looking around thinking he can kick a low drop punt, only for the kick to be intercepted.

[Danjul]

And the week before that they had more handballs than kicks (an unusual feat) and smashed Port and the week before was 227-178 (127%) and smashed GWS.

You seem to be desperate to discount something that is starting to look obvious. When this Bulldog team focuses on kicking as the first option they usually win.

Obviously there are other factors.

For example when we lost to Gold Coast the ratio was 159%. We lost the hitouts by more than 50, which didn’t help.

The following week we had the same ratio as Collingwood but also lost the hitouts by more than 50 again. And our tallest backman was the non-tall Cordy which also didn’t help.

Obviously kicking doesn’t always overcome structural weaknesses.

[hujsh]

You seem to be desperate to discount something that is starting to look obvious. When this Bulldog team focuses on kicking as the first option they usually win.

Obviously there are other factors.

For example when we lost to Gold Coast the ratio was 159%. We lost the hitouts by more than 50, which didn’t help.

The following week we had the same ratio as Collingwood but also lost the hitouts by more than 50 again. And our tallest backman was the non-tall Cordy which also didn’t help.

Obviously kicking doesn’t always overcome structural weaknesses.

Ah of course if it’s not kicking then it must be your other hobby horse, hitouts. And that fact my initial comment was that we shouldn’t just outright copy Brisbane and we need the right balance for us is lost forever as you mischaracterise my reasoning as ‘the dogs shouldn’t kick more’

Thank you for advising me of how I appear but I simply don’t accept your ‘this is the exact problem and here’s some stats’ and ‘this player is better than this other player and here’s some stats’ line of argument.

All I’m saying is that maybe it’s actually something else that allows us to kick first rather than simply a directive to kick first that is the cause of success in these examples. Pressure, good quick release by hands at the contest to someone free, work rate up the field, lack of pressure by the opposition, etc. You can get me a graph if all our kick to handball ratios vs the +\- margin and it still won’t satisfy me on its own. Statistics are to be interpreted. That are a glimpse at the truth. They are not the truth itself.

[Danjul]

Ah of course if it’s not kicking then it must be your other hobby horse, hitouts. And that fact my initial comment was that we shouldn’t just outright copy Brisbane and we need the right balance for us is lost forever as you mischaracterise my reasoning as ‘the dogs shouldn’t kick more’

Thank you for advising me of how I appear but I simply don’t accept your ‘this is the exact problem and here’s some stats’ and ‘this player is better than this other player and here’s some stats’ line of argument.

All I’m saying is that maybe it’s actually something else that allows us to kick first rather than simply a directive to kick first that is the cause of success in these examples. Pressure, good quick release by hands at the contest to someone free, work rate up the field, lack of pressure by the opposition, etc. You can get me a graph if all our kick to handball ratios vs the +\- margin and it still won’t satisfy me on its own. Statistics are to be interpreted. That are a glimpse at the truth. They are not the truth itself.

I have not counted them but i am sure that i have had more than two.

[Twodogs]

I have not counted them but i am sure that i have had more than two.

Oh absolutely! Half a dozen at least. ;)

I am able to make that point because I am perfect and would never bang on about anything...


...except goalkicking technique. And umpiring. Not to mention handballing backwards over your head. But apart from those there are only 4 or 5 more that I bang on about.

[westdog54]

Oh absolutely! Half a dozen at least. ;)

I am able to make that point because I am perfect and would never bang on about anything...


...except goalkicking technique. And umpiring. Not to mention handballing backwards over your head. But apart from those there are only 4 or 5 more that I bang on about.

*cough*ASADA*cough*

[Twodogs]

*cough*ASADA*cough*

Oh, don't get me stared on that. To be fair ASADA isn't strictly about footy.

Speaking of which why are WADA now forcing athletes to take drugs? Caster Semenya who was never accused of taking performance enhancers is now being made to take drugs if she wants to compete because she has a naturally occuring hormone? Where do we go next? If athletes are really fast do we tie one of their legs to the other?


What a farce.

[Bulldog4life]

Oh absolutely! Half a dozen at least. ;)

I am able to make that point because I am perfect and would never bang on about anything...


...except goalkicking technique. And umpiring. Not to mention handballing backwards over your head. But apart from those there are only 4 or 5 more that I bang on about.

Don't forget the trade of Hamling Td.

[Bulldog Joe]

Oh, don't get me stared on that. To be fair ASADA isn't strictly about footy.

Speaking of which why are WADA now forcing athletes to take drugs? Caster Semenya who was never accused of taking performance enhancers is now being made to take drugs if she wants to compete because she has a naturally occuring hormone? Where do we go next? If athletes are really fast do we tie one of their legs to the other?


What a farce.

Now you will upset me about this one.

There has previously been a maximum testosterone level for athletes to compete as females.

Semenya was previously banned because she is not within acceptable female hormone levels, but had the rules overturned to win gold medals.

If she wants to compete she can, but not as a female unless she reduces the hormone levels to acceptable female standards.

[comrade]

Gender & sport, this should end well ;)

[jeemak]

Now you will upset me about this one.

There has previously been a maximum testosterone level for athletes to compete as females.

Semenya was previously banned because she is not within acceptable female hormone levels, but had the rules overturned to win gold medals.

If she wants to compete she can, but not as a female unless she reduces the hormone levels to acceptable female standards.

Acceptable female hormone levels...…….out of context that sequence of words could get you in a fair bit of trouble!

I think we should also look at genetics if we're looking at hormones.

[Bulldog Joe]

Acceptable female hormone levels...…….out of context that sequence of words could get you in a fair bit of trouble!

I think we should also look at genetics if we're looking at hormones.

An interesting topic for debate and I can easily be out of context when it comes to the female gender. Perhaps we should leave it there as we are far enough of topic already.

[Twodogs]

An interesting topic for debate and I can easily be out of context when it comes to the female gender. Perhaps we should leave it there as we are far enough of topic already.

I've made my point. I'm happy.