Brisbane were ready for us.

[mjp]

Just a quick point on game-style.

Our rapid fire handball - particularly out of contested situations and PARTICULARLY from inside the contest killed us today.

We do this thing where the ball is on the ground, we are 'over it' and we 'throw it outside the contest' where the runners are. Today the 'runners' wore maroon and blue.

Watching on TV, I just found myself shouting over and again 'just hold it in' as we were tackled and indiscriminantly handballed it to the outside...one by Liber in q2 and another by Hunter in q4 will live long in my memory...we aren't going to be called for holding the ball, so just hang on to the thing and force a stoppage/restart.

But. That's how we play. And the Lions saw us coming. And they surrounded the contest. And they HURT us on the breakaway.

It is a big strength of ours (handball) but when there are numbers around the ball, it really is a roll of the dice and today it came up snake eyes too many times. Oh yeah, and whilst I'm at it if Maclean isn't going to knock Berry out of bounds in the last quarter of a close game and is going to forget the percentage play and instead try to lay a tackle but miss the tackle, well, I don't think he can play for a couple of weeks. Sorry, but some things are non-negotiable and that was a BIG moment.

[Bulldog Joe]

Mike, as usual you are spot on.

We had a great opportunity and we showed we can compete, but we gift it to our opposition WAAY too often.

[bornadog]

When Brisbane had the ball, they controlled the pace and tempo, and we really didn't like it. We need a plan for when this happens, so we can get the ball back.

[Twodogs]

When Brisbane had the ball, they controlled the pace and tempo, and we really didn't like it. We need a plan for when this happens, so we can get the ball back.

Just a thought but maybe not kicking it to them every time we got the ball might help?

[Cyberdoggie]

Just a thought but maybe not kicking it to them every time we got the ball might help?

Hunter says hello. He butchered the ball today worse than I've ever seen him do. So many times they just banged it on the boot when they had time, and when they actually had time they missed easy lay up passes that just had to be in the general vicinity.

[Ghost Dog]

Hunter provides options and gut running, that's true. But I get so frustrated because he often gets the ball, then tries some party-trick only to undo the chain. He looks a million bucks until the kick that matters most. I feel a bit disappointed, and hope I am not being too hard, but today was particularly bad!

[jeemak]

Just a quick point on game-style.

Our rapid fire handball - particularly out of contested situations and PARTICULARLY from inside the contest killed us today.

We do this thing where the ball is on the ground, we are 'over it' and we 'throw it outside the contest' where the runners are. Today the 'runners' wore maroon and blue.

Watching on TV, I just found myself shouting over and again 'just hold it in' as we were tackled and indiscriminantly handballed it to the outside...one by Liber in q2 and another by Hunter in q4 will live long in my memory...we aren't going to be called for holding the ball, so just hang on to the thing and force a stoppage/restart.

But. That's how we play. And the Lions saw us coming. And they surrounded the contest. And they HURT us on the breakaway.

It is a big strength of ours (handball) but when there are numbers around the ball, it really is a roll of the dice and today it came up snake eyes too many times. Oh yeah, and whilst I'm at it if Maclean isn't going to knock Berry out of bounds in the last quarter of a close game and is going to forget the percentage play and instead try to lay a tackle but miss the tackle, well, I don't think he can play for a couple of weeks. Sorry, but some things are non-negotiable and that was a BIG moment.

Great post, thanks for the insight.

It was clear that not only at the first contest after a stoppage but those subsequent Brisbane were able to put enough pressure on the ball but keep a balance on the outlet to ensure they had cover as you mentioned. A couple of contests Dickson was involved in showed this up.

With a bit more care using the football we could have adjusted a little better earlier, which we eventually did anyway, as we had the opportunity to pressure them on the scoreboard and reset but it wasn't to be. As a result it was a genuine weekend wrecker of a game because we fluffed our lines so clinically early that Brisbane was able to get a good lead and give the likes of Charlie Cameron an opportunity to kick straight due to point blank opportunities.

I'd actually forgotten that Toby was on the ground until that contest you mentioned, that and Macrae's overrun to be faked out for a Brisbane goal early stood out for me as key defencive moments where players just needed to be a bit smarter. Well not just a bit smarter, but more in tune with what is important which is neutralise a situation and hold up the game because we were done for speed.

While you were shouting at the TV for your own reasons, I think I was shouting at the stupidity of our decision making and execution forward of half back pretty much all game. You're right the Lions did us next ball out, but we won enough footy to hurt them back and we failed to do it at critical times. Plus while everyone was slipping over all game, we seemed to do that more and it really pissed me off.

[AshMac]

Agree - they had a better structure than us all game. Every time the camera panned out there seemed to be more of them than us.

I thought the core difference was how innefective we were with turnovers. There were 3 instances in the first, and a couple in the second where we had numbers running with the ball but either second guessed ourselves or just missed a target in space.

You could see the momentum switch each time they transitioned and scored easily.


Side point - I have absolutely no issue with the bump from Robinson on Dunkley, but for god sake I’d like a couple of the boys to remonstrate and bloody well do the same thing to their top mids!! We don’t match up well when teams bring aggression.

[Mofra]

I missed the game unfortunately, how did we get back into the game? An adjustment to our handball game, or did we try and slow it down and move the ball more deliberately?

[The bulldog tragician]

They used the wide open space better. There was a sense of a coherent plan and all knew their role. Fagan is impressive.

And every team but us manages to do the fast break where there ends up being either a line forward or a one out contest where the kick is to their advantage. We are slow in a lot of areas of the ground. I struggle to think of who has pace. Bailey Smith. jJ. Little Red (what’s happened with him?). Naughton is reasonably quick for his size. But I can’t think of others..

[Cyberdoggie]

Still if we had Cameron we would of easily won that game. Or even if Dickson was anywhere near his prime or Lloyd had a better game then it could of been different. Dickson has been great for us over recent years but he looks like he's running on a different surface out there compared to everyone else.

[Ghost Dog]

Zorko's hamstring wasn't ready. And that's part of why we got back into it.

[bornadog]

Zorko's hamstring wasn't ready. And that's part of why we got back into it.

Don't agree. We changed it up after half time, and The Bont started to dominate the game.

[Twodogs]

I missed the game unfortunately, how did we get back into the game? An adjustment to our handball game, or did we try and slow it down and move the ball more deliberately?

The Bont took control.

[Eastdog]

The Bont took control.

In particular that 3rd quarter to get us back in it. He was really good but we need to capitalise on our advantages inside 50 and we simply haven’t done that consistently. We have kicked some good scores this year but need to aim for that week to week.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Hunter provides options and gut running, that's true. But I get so frustrated because he often gets the ball, then tries some party-trick only to undo the chain. He looks a million bucks until the kick that matters most. I feel a bit disappointed, and hope I am not being too hard, but today was particularly bad!
You are not being too harsh on Hunter but it equally applies to a number of others as well. Against the Lions, Hunter Macrae and Dunkley would have accumulated over 100 disposals between them with little result on the scoreboard. Their ability to win the ball isn’t matched by disposing of the ball correctly. As a result we are becoming hard to watch as a team. There is a trend that has emerged that is proving unhealthy. I personally think that the team is in need of a shake up. Others on Woof that players are gaining regular selection without earning it, which is becoming a concern. Losing games to the likes of GCS, Carlton and St Kilda simply highlights our lack of professionalism. Bontempelli is an exception. We need more to follow his lead.

[Axe Man]

You are not being too harsh on Hunter but it equally applies to a number of others as well. Against the Lions, Hunter Macrae and Dunkley would have accumulated over 100 disposals between them with little result on the scoreboard. Their ability to win the ball isn’t matched by disposing of the ball correctly. As a result we are becoming hard to watch as a team. There is a trend that has emerged that is proving unhealthy. I personally think that the team is in need of a shake up. Others on Woof that players are gaining regular selection without earning it, which is becoming a concern. Losing games to the likes of GCS, Carlton and St Kilda simply highlights our lack of professionalism. Bontempelli is an exception. We need more to follow his lead.

Macrae had 9 score involvements, Dunkley 10 (Bont 12). They don’t have to kick goals themselves to have scoreboard impact.

[ledge]

We lost because of our own stupid mistakes, simple as that , hunter missing easy targets up forward, the Bont and Naughton missing goals,bombing it as usual to Brisbane’s talls in our forward line, kick those we win.
What happened to last weeks lowering the eyes and hitting up targets ?

[Bulldog4life]

We lost because of our own stupid mistakes, simple as that , hunter missing easy targets up forward, the Bont and Naughton missing goals,bombing it as usual to Brisbane’s talls in our forward line, kick those we win.
What happened to last weeks lowering the eyes and hitting up targets ?

Yep that was the big difference.

[ledge]

Yep that was the big difference.

It’s our biggest bug bear, we wouldn’t lose to many games If we did that every game, just hope it clicks into action more often than not as it’s visa versa at the moment.

[mjp]

Macrae had 9 score involvements, Dunkley 10 (Bont 12). They don’t have to kick goals themselves to have scoreboard impact.

Yes...but Bont's miss from inside the goal-square counts as a score involvement. As does Hunter running inside 50m in q2, not taking the shot and somehow also missing both Lloyd and Smith (both open ahead of him) and the ball rolling through for a point.

I know what you are saying, but Macrae and Bont had 30% of our inside 50's...and I think we all feel delivery inside 50 was a significant problem for us...so - be careful of lies and damned statistics as they only tell half the story.

[Mantis]

We lost because of our own stupid mistakes, simple as that , hunter missing easy targets up forward, the Bont and Naughton missing goals,bombing it as usual to Brisbane’s talls in our forward line, kick those we win.
What happened to last weeks lowering the eyes and hitting up targets ?

We still took 14 marks inside F50 so it wasn’t a total disaster.

[Axe Man]

Yes...but Bont's miss from inside the goal-square counts as a score involvement. As does Hunter running inside 50m in q2, not taking the shot and somehow also missing both Lloyd and Smith (both open ahead of him) and the ball rolling through for a point.

I know what you are saying, but Macrae and Bont had 30% of our inside 50's...and I think we all feel delivery inside 50 was a significant problem for us...so - be careful of lies and damned statistics as they only tell half the story.

It was a response to the assertion that Macrae, Dunkley and Hunter get lots of possessions but apparently all have terrible disposal and don't impact the scoreboard at all. I think that is completely incorrect, especially in regards to Macrae and Dunkley.

Of course our delivery inside 50 remains an issue, but I actually felt our decision making was a bigger problem than skill execution against Brisbane. Your Hunter example a case in point.

[bornadog]

Of course our delivery inside 50 remains an issue, but I actually felt our decision making was a bigger problem than skill execution against Brisbane. Your Hunter example a case in point.

I didn't understand why we had to always rush our shots within the F50, we need to be more composed.

[Danjul]

We still took 14 marks inside F50 so it wasn’t a total disaster.

One in four entries results in a mark, is that the expected rate? Should be 1 in 3.

What score results from the mark? Not enough.

Why? Where the mark is taken, Distance and angle - Too far, too wide.

Why? Entry is slow from the wings.

Do the opposition backmen take more? Suspect so.

Why? Slow wide entries put 20 defenders in the arc.

How to fix this?

Open up, less handball (too many, too short) , look ahead, quick 40 metre low trajectory kicks (forward- not backwards and sideways), get away from the boundary line, have some set plays into forward line like other teams, give players an assigned role (all over the ground).

[Danjul]

Macrae had 9 score involvements, Dunkley 10 . They don’t have to kick goals themselves to have scoreboard impact.

Great players - but many of their score involvements should be goals they have kicked.

A midfielder getting 40 possessions should have a few goals.

If Dunkley gets a set kick 40 metres from goal he is likely to look for a pass.

There must be someone at the club who can turn them into goal kickers.

It would take a lot of pressure off the team.

[Axe Man]

One in four entries results in a mark, is that the expected rate? Should be 1 in 3.

What score results from the mark? Not enough.

Why? Where the mark is taken, Distance and angle - Too far, too wide.

Why? Entry is slow from the wings.

Do the opposition backmen take more? Suspect so.

Why? Slow wide entries put 20 defenders in the arc.

How to fix this?

Open up, less handball (too many, too short) , look ahead, quick 40 metre low trajectory kicks (forward- not backwards and sideways), get away from the boundary line, have some set plays into forward line like other teams, give players an assigned role (all over the ground).

No team in the league averages 1 mark per 3 inside 50s. We are equal with Collingwood for the most marks inside 50, although they do it from fewer inside 50s.

You know what though? Inside 50 and marks inside 50 numbers have little correlation to the current ladder.

I do agree that often our marks inside 50 are not in dangerous positions. It's not a simple solution though - the opposition is likely to better guard the dangerous areas leaving us with a choice to kick long to the hot spot with a low likelihood of a mark or try to find an open player in a lower percentage goal kicking position.

Ball movement is not as simple as just kick 40 metres forward all the time. We would be slaughtered if we did that. It's up to the players to assess the situation and take the best course of action which may be breaking the play up with handball, kicking sideways or backwards to shift the defence and open something up, or kicking long if it's on. I guess striking the right balance is the key.

[Axe Man]

Great players - but many of their score involvements should be goals they have kicked.

A midfielder getting 40 possessions should have a few goals.

If Dunkley gets a set kick 40 metres from goal he is likely to look for a pass.

There must be someone at the club who can turn them into goal kickers.

It would take a lot of pressure off the team.

Why? Does it matter who kicks goals, as long as they are kicked?

Some absolute champion midfielders have not been goal kickers. Macrae in particular is not going to magically become one. We all wish he would pull the trigger more when in position to have a shot, but it doesn't make or break him as a player.

If he's getting the ball +30 times and setting up other for goals that's just fine with me. Where his inside 50s are going may be a different discussion.

[Bullies]

Yes...but Bont's miss from inside the goal-square counts as a score involvement. As does Hunter running inside 50m in q2, not taking the shot and somehow also missing both Lloyd and Smith (both open ahead of him) and the ball rolling through for a point.

I know what you are saying, but Macrae and Bont had 30% of our inside 50's...and I think we all feel delivery inside 50 was a significant problem for us...so - be careful of lies and damned statistics as they only tell half the story. Too true. Stats can be over rated and read what you want into them. Perfect example was the other week. Freo had more inside 50's than West Coast and lost by 90+ points.

[westdog54]

One in four entries results in a mark, is that the expected rate? Should be 1 in 3.



Whether a mark results from an inside 50 is of little relevance, I want us to score from entries, not just catch the thing.

This year, we average 2.33 Inside 50s per scoring shot. Brisbane averages 2.13. We average one mark inside 50 out of every 4.35 entries. Brisbane averages One mark every 5.11 entries.

Both of the top two teams in the competition are running a 1 mark to 4 inside 50s ratio. Your 1 in 3 rationale is simplistic in the extreme and not backed up by evidence.

[Danjul]

Why? Does it matter who kicks goals, as long as they are kicked?

Some absolute champion midfielders have not been goal kickers. Macrae in particular is not going to magically become one. We all wish he would pull the trigger more when in position to have a shot, but it doesn't make or break him as a player.

If he's getting the ball +30 times and setting up other for goals that's just fine with me. Where his inside 50s are going may be a different discussion.

They are not being kicked. That’s why we lose too often. .( Even when the team has 70 more possessions.)

[mjp]

...but I actually felt our decision making was a bigger problem than skill execution against Brisbane. Your Hunter example a case in point.

What came first, the decision or the skill?

This is an interesting one. Because a players decisions are IMPACTED by his skill.

For example:

- Right call for Hunter was 'kick the goal'.
- He is an experienced player - His initial decision = 'Kick the Goal'.
- BUT. He missed at training during the week. Or missed vs Port Adelaide in 2017. Or in the u12s.
- SO. 'Do the team thing'. Quick. Quick.
- Messed up.

What is to blame? The decision? Or the skill failing (real or imagined) that led to the decision?

It is why we - as supporters - see open players but the player with the ball will not kick it to them. They are haunted by their own perceptions (and the coaches instructions!) as to what they are/aren't capable of/allowed to do. Hit the 25m 45 in the d50? Caleb Daniel says 'Yes I can'. Same opportunity is there for Zaine Cordy (aka Ayce for those listening to the ABC broadcast team last weekend) and he tends to bomb it long to the junction. Safer. Can't be a clanger if you go long to a contest.

Decision error? Skill error?

Other players see the open target but - rather than try and hit it, simply hold the ball an extra 2-seconds...then the opening is gone. Guess what? That means they don't have to try and hit it now, so they wave their arms about and pretend they are looking for a lead before blasting away...

Decision error? Skill error? Chicken? Egg?

[Danjul]

No team in the league averages 1 mark per 3 inside 50s. We are equal with Collingwood for the most marks inside 50, although they do it from fewer inside 50s.

You know what though? Inside 50 and marks inside 50 numbers have little correlation to the current ladder.

I do agree that often our marks inside 50 are not in dangerous positions. It's not a simple solution though - the opposition is likely to better guard the dangerous areas leaving us with a choice to kick long to the hot spot with a low likelihood of a mark or try to find an open player in a lower percentage goal kicking position.

Ball movement is not as simple as just kick 40 metres forward all the time. We would be slaughtered if we did that. It's up to the players to assess the situation and take the best course of action which may be breaking the play up with handball, kicking sideways or backwards to shift the defence and open something up, or kicking long if it's on. I guess striking the right balance is the key.

Exactly. And we don’t have it.

All year I have seen players get the ball and immediately look sideways for a handball. From marks and free kicks too.

The over use of handball has been behind the shocking first quarters against St Kilda and Brisbane.

Was it 70 more than Brisbane by the end?

I would like to see the team focus more on the kicking aspect of the game.

[Danjul]

Whether a mark results from an inside 50 is of little relevance, I want us to score from entries, not just catch the thing.

This year, we average 2.33 Inside 50s per scoring shot. Brisbane averages 2.13. We average one mark inside 50 out of every 4.35 entries. Brisbane averages One mark every 5.11 entries.

Both of the top two teams in the competition are running a 1 mark to 4 inside 50s ratio. Your 1 in 3 rationale is simplistic in the extreme and not backed up by evidence.

It was not simplistic, it was made up to catch attention because I don’t have full access to the evidence. Thanks for fact checking.

But.....

All I was going on was the fact that when Geelong smashed us earlier in the year they had 17 marks from 50 entries (1 in 3) and 21 goals . Suggests much cleaner play, but they had only about 4 more scoring shots.

We had 13 (which is 1 in 4) for only 13 goals.

We also had more 40 more possessions but 50 more handballs.

If you look at the Brisbane game - almost an exact repeat.

They were better than 1 in 3 and we were worse than 1 in 4. We had 70 more possessions but 70 more handballs. They won but only with 3 more scoring shots.

We are not going to fix our problems by looking at league stats, we must look at our own.

Look at the Collingwood game. We had 12 marks from 60 entries (only 1 in 5). We had 50 more disposals (455 was the most in any game since the premiership year) but mainly handball. And the Pies still won, even with less scoring shots.

The marks per entry indicate a lot more than someone caught the ball.

Oh well, at least the Dogs are consistent.

[Insufficient Intent]

I would like to see the team focus more on the kicking aspect of the game.

Spot on, if we could add a greater accuracy count to the kicks, both field and goal.
Nothing wrong with handball, but overdoing it usually leads to yet another turnover.
Upping our boot skills would make us so much more adaptive to different situations.

[Mantis]

Spot on, if we could add a greater accuracy count to the kicks, both field and goal.
Nothing wrong with handball, but overdoing it usually leads to yet another turnover.
Upping our boot skills would make us so much more adaptive to different situations.

Taking a simplistic view, you can either kick or you can’t... and we have more than our fair share of players who can’t kick.. well not at an above average or higher level.

[Danjul]

Taking a simplistic view, you can either kick or you can’t... and we have more than our fair share of players who can’t kick.. well not at an above average or higher level.

I know a surgeon who could not put people back together when he was 20. With a lot of effort he is now very good at it.

How is it that professional footballers are not expected to learn skills? They either can or can’t, and that’s how they expect to stay.

[GVGjr]

Why? Does it matter who kicks goals, as long as they are kicked?

Some absolute champion midfielders have not been goal kickers. Macrae in particular is not going to magically become one. We all wish he would pull the trigger more when in position to have a shot, but it doesn't make or break him as a player.

If he's getting the ball +30 times and setting up other for goals that's just fine with me. Where his inside 50s are going may be a different discussion.

If we could turn Macrae into a midfielder who kicked 15 to 20 goals per season I genuinely believe it would enhance his Brownlow medal chances. Unfortunately it's unlikely that he will take on that sort of goal scoring involvement

He's been playing senior footy since 2013 and has kicked just 32 goals and 28 points in 137 games.

[Mantis]

I know a surgeon who could not put people back together when he was 20. With a lot of effort he is now very good at it.

How is it that professional footballers are not expected to learn skills? They either can or can’t, and that’s how they expect to stay.

Did said surgeon started cutting into people when he was 5 or 6?

Much easier to be taught correctly from the start, than try to rectify ingrained issues some 12-15 years later.

[Danjul]

Did said surgeon started cutting into people when he was 5 or 6?

Much easier to be taught correctly from the start, than try to rectify ingrained issues some 12-15 years later.

True, but these guys have natural talent to work with. So it should only take about 200 hours to get a 100% improvement.

[AshMac]

If we could turn Macrae into a midfielder who kicked 15 to 20 goals per season I genuinely believe it would enhance his Brownlow medal chances. Unfortunately it's unlikely that he will take on that sort of goal scoring involvement

He's been playing senior footy since 2013 and has kicked just 32 goals and 28 points in 137 games.

I would love to see this. Of all our players, he is the one that has the kicking style and opportunity to have more shots

[Ghost Dog]

For years people railed on the kicking skills of Matty Boyd. Myself included, the panic bomb from congestion, he was the master.
It turns out he was not a bad kick from full back. I believe JMac can achieve any realistic goal. For me, that would be to kick 10-15 goals more per season.

[bornadog]

If we could turn Macrae into a midfielder who kicked 15 to 20 goals per season I genuinely believe it would enhance his Brownlow medal chances. Unfortunately it's unlikely that he will take on that sort of goal scoring involvement

He's been playing senior footy since 2013 and has kicked just 32 goals and 28 points in 137 games.

Not all mids kick goals. Look at Cripps, has kicked 46 in 98 games whereas, Bont over 100 in 123 games.

[GVGjr]

Not all mids kick goals. Look at Cripps, has kicked 46 in 98 games whereas, Bont over 100 in 123 games.

I thought that was sort of obvious but if Macrae stepped it up a bit rather than looking to pass it off at every opportunity it would hold hom in a higher regard

[azabob]

I thought that was sort of obvious but if Macrae stepped it up a bit rather than looking to pass it off at every opportunity it would hold hom in a higher regard

Exactly- at minimum Macrae would get 1 shot at goal a game but chooses to pass it off to a player in a worse spot who is under more pressure.

For our midfield to be the best in the comp (which we are not even though some think we are) they need to take more responsibility in kicking goals and hitting targets inside forward 50.

I am getting sick of seeing high disposals for little return on the scoreboard and most importantly winning games of football.

[bornadog]

I am getting sick of seeing high disposals for little return on the scoreboard and most importantly winning games of football.

You need to also look at goal assists, and score involvements, not just goals.

Name one team with better mids than us - it's an interesting debate.

[Mofra]

You need to also look at goal assists, and score involvements, not just goals.

Name one team with better mids than us - it's an interesting debate.
Right now - West Coast, Richmond and arguably Brisbane.

Before anyone even considers suggesting Collingwood - hell no. They have Grundy, then some ball hunters who don't work for each other at all.

[Mantis]

You need to also look at goal assists, and score involvements, not just goals.

Name one team with better mids than us - it's an interesting debate.

I would love to see Macrae’s conversation rate for score assists against attempts. My thoughts are that his final kick doesn’t hit the mark as often as it should.

Lots of score involvements which is a given how often he handles the ball, but as the final piece he lets himself down.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I would love to see Macrae’s conversation rate for score assists against attempts. My thoughts are that his final kick doesn’t hit the mark as often as it should.

Lots of score involvements which is a given how often he handles the ball, but as the final piece he lets himself down.

You could say the same about Dunkley and Hunter. When our 5 permanent forwards contribute just 5 goals between them then something is radically wrong when you consider the amount of ball supply being generated by the midfield

[hujsh]

True, but these guys have natural talent to work with. So it should only take about 200 hours to get a 100% improvement.
Are you able to give me a percentage figure on how arbitrary those figures you came up with are?

[bornadog]

I would love to see Macrae’s conversation rate for score assists against attempts. My thoughts are that his final kick doesn’t hit the mark as often as it should.

Lots of score involvements which is a given how often he handles the ball, but as the final piece he lets himself down.

I don't know if those stats are available, but for the season, Macrae has kicked 3 goals, but 19 goal assists and running at 75.2% disposal efficiency.

I think perception and reality don't equal, because humans tend to concentrate on the errors but not the positives.

[bornadog]

Right now - West Coast, Richmond and arguably Brisbane.

Before anyone even considers suggesting Collingwood - hell no. They have Grundy, then some ball hunters who don't work for each other at all.

Depends how you measure better of course. Going by disposal stats, Eagles have Gaff, Sheed, Shuey, Richmond have Prestia in top 15 for disposals, and then falls to 18 for Dusty, Brisbane have Neale top 4, next best is Lyon at 49.

We have Macrae at 2, Bont, Hunter, Dunkley in top 20. I think we stand up to any team

[Happy Days]

Right now - West Coast, Richmond and arguably Brisbane.

Before anyone even considers suggesting Collingwood - hell no. They have Grundy, then some ball hunters who don't work for each other at all.

I think we have the best midfield but are hampered somewhat by Tim being at the stage of development he's at. Interestingly enough the ruck divisions suck for all the teams you mentioned too.

[Mofra]

Depends how you measure better of course. Going by disposal stats, Eagles have Gaff, Sheed, Shuey, Richmond have Prestia in top 15 for disposals, and then falls to 18 for Dusty, Brisbane have Neale top 4, next best is Lyon at 49.

We have Macrae at 2, Bont, Hunter, Dunkley in top 20. I think we stand up to any team
As accumulators, yes.
But if simply accumulating the ball was all that mattered we'd be in the top 4.

[Happy Days]

As accumulators, yes.
But if simply accumulating the ball was all that mattered we'd be in the top 4.

It's why Brisbane are so impressive - they never ever burn the ball and get so much more done with so much less possession.

This isn't to say that I think what Macrae/Dunkley/Hunter do is mere accumulation, but it is also the reason that Bont is a better player than them.

[Danjul]

Are you able to give me a percentage figure on how arbitrary those figures you came up with are?

Are you suggesting that after 200 hours of practising someone like Hunter could not improve their kicking?

Even Olympic champions have personal training to detect and remove small faults that develop.

OK, let’s assume that the Dogs need longer. Give them 400 hours.

By next season I expect all players to be able to kick 9 out of 10 goals from the 50 metre arc.

[hujsh]

Are you suggesting that after 200 hours of practising someone like Hunter could not improve their kicking?

Even Olympic champions have personal training to detect and remove small faults that develop.

OK, let’s assume that the Dogs need longer. Give them 400 hours.

By next season I expect all players to be able to kick 9 out of 10 goals from the 50 metre arc.
200 hours would possibly result in some improvement. Depends on a few factors like how they’re practising and what guidance they get. 100% improvement means they’re literally twice as good as they are now as professional players with years of experience. A 10% improvement would probably be incredible. I have no idea how many hours it would take to get there or if it’s even possible/realistic for most players.

You also have to ask how long are these hours spread over and what’s the opportunity cost of investing more in kicking specifically?

As for kicking 9/10 goals from 50... can anyone do that? Literally anyone in the history of the game?

[azabob]

You need to also look at goal assists, and score involvements, not just goals.

Name one team with better mids than us - it's an interesting debate.


Right now - West Coast, Richmond and arguably Brisbane.

Before anyone even considers suggesting Collingwood - hell no. They have Grundy, then some ball hunters who don't work for each other at all.

In addition to Mofra's i'd even suggest GWS have a better midfield. Congillio, Taranto, Kelly, Ward, Hopper.

The closer we get to the end of the season the more frustrated I am getting. We should be playing finals.

[MrMahatma]

In addition to Mofra's i'd even suggest GWS have a better midfield. Congillio, Taranto, Kelly, Ward, Hopper.

The closer we get to the end of the season the more frustrated I am getting. We should be playing finals.

Many teams could argue they’re better than the ladder says. The fact is, a long season usually balances things out.

If we’re good enough to be in the 8 at the end of the year, we will be. If we’re not, we shouldn’t be.

Losing because we make mistakes, even though we “could” have played better, doesn’t mean we deserve to be higher on the ladder.

It’s like the “honourable loss” but an “honourable season”...

[bornadog]

In addition to Mofra's i'd even suggest GWS have a better midfield. Congillio, Taranto, Kelly, Ward, Hopper.


Based on what? Taranto is 11th for disposals, then the rest fall away.

I am basing this on 2019, and Kelly and Ward haven't played.

[Danjul]

200 hours would possibly result in some improvement. Depends on a few factors like how they’re practising and what guidance they get. 100% improvement means they’re literally twice as good as they are now as professional players with years of experience. A 10% improvement would probably be incredible. I have no idea how many hours it would take to get there or if it’s even possible/realistic for most players.

You also have to ask how long are these hours spread over and what’s the opportunity cost of investing more in kicking specifically?

As for kicking 9/10 goals from 50... can anyone do that? Literally anyone in the history of the game?

For most of the players 1 extra goal every few games would be somewhere between a 100% and an infinite improvement.

And are you suggesting there is no one at the club who can give guidance? That would explain the poor disposals.

[hujsh]

For most of the players 1 extra goal every few games would be somewhere between a 100% and an infinite improvement.

And are you suggesting there is no one at the club who can give guidance? That would explain the poor disposals.
Okay move the goalposts. You said it would improve their kicking 100% and the context of the conversation clearly includes field kicking. You aren’t improving anyone’s kicking skills 100% by any metric unless starting from a very low base (international rookie perhaps)

As for the guidance I’m saying that it comes in various forms. Are they going to the AIS and having specialists analyse their technique? Is a coach giving them general tips? Is someone helping them with the mental aspect of goal kicking?

It’s easy to say ‘put in 200 hours and be a better kick’ but how are you doing it? Under what conditions? Is this extra on top of existing skills work or 200 hours pulled from something else? What do we do currently to address our kicking skills? (I certainly don’t know aside from training drills).

You’ve thrown out random numbers and frankly I’m not convinced by your defense of them. If you want the club to focus more on skills then that’s fine if there’s actually going to be a benefit. Without evidence to suggest there will be payoff of the time invested it’s hard to get onboard though. Perhaps there’s a point of diminishing returns when it comes to working on your kicking where you’d be better off focusing on say endurance instead (an example not an actual suggestion)

[Mofra]

In addition to Mofra's i'd even suggest GWS have a better midfield. Congillio, Taranto, Kelly, Ward, Hopper.

The closer we get to the end of the season the more frustrated I am getting. We should be playing finals.
I only left GWS out because of Ward's knee although you could argue Coniglio's transformation from the best two-way running midfielder in the competition to a complete one-way runner also impacts my opinion.

I think GWS have the cash to keep everyone, but based on Coniglio's play I think he goes. Apologies for going off-topic.

[mjp]

I only left GWS out because of Ward's knee although you could argue Coniglio's transformation from the best two-way running midfielder in the competition to a complete one-way runner also impacts my opinion.

I think GWS have the cash to keep everyone, but based on Coniglio's play I think he goes. Apologies for going off-topic.

What are you trying to say about Coniglio - has he gotten better or worse?

[Danjul]

Okay move the goalposts. You said it would improve their kicking 100% and the context of the conversation clearly includes field kicking. You aren’t improving anyone’s kicking skills 100% by any metric unless starting from a very low base (international rookie perhaps)

As for the guidance I’m saying that it comes in various forms. Are they going to the AIS and having specialists analyse their technique? Is a coach giving them general tips? Is someone helping them with the mental aspect of goal kicking?

It’s easy to say ‘put in 200 hours and be a better kick’ but how are you doing it? Under what conditions? Is this extra on top of existing skills work or 200 hours pulled from something else? What do we do currently to address our kicking skills? (I certainly don’t know aside from training drills).

You’ve thrown out random numbers and frankly I’m not convinced by your defense of them. If you want the club to focus more on skills then that’s fine if there’s actually going to be a benefit. Without evidence to suggest there will be payoff of the time invested it’s hard to get onboard though. Perhaps there’s a point of diminishing returns when it comes to working on your kicking where you’d be better off focusing on say endurance instead (an example not an actual suggestion)

Good points.

Comments on the forum suggest that both the field kicking and shots at goal were terrible in the first quarter of Sunday’s game. Personally I thought it was close to the worst I have seen.

Missing goals from 35 metres must be fixable.

The same goes for missing a teammate on their own 30 metres away when not under pressure.

Between now and the start of the season there is plenty of time, If the problem is acknowledged and the desire to fix it is present.

[azabob]

Based on what? Taranto is 11th for disposals, then the rest fall away.

I am basing this on 2019, and Kelly and Ward haven't played.

Based on my opinion. I’m not too fussed on total disposals. I think GWS midfielders have more hurt factor.

Reality is, it’s a fairly close call.

[Twodogs]

For most of the players 1 extra goal every few games would be somewhere between a 100% and an infinite improvement.

And are you suggesting there is no one at the club who can give guidance? That would explain the poor disposals.

I agree it's fixable.

I've said it before but give me the worst kick in our team for 30 minutes and I will improve his set shot kicking by 50%. It's not that complicated. Walk to the top of the mark, take a deep breath and walk in straight, keep your head over the ball when it hits your foot. Don't stress, don't panic. Simple.

Part time, semi professional players back in the '70s and '80s managed to kick the bloody thing straight so there is no reason why they can't now.

[Mantis]

Part time, semi professional players back in the '70s and '80s managed to kick the bloody thing straight so there is no reason why they can't now.

The game is unrecognisable to what it was in this era with regard to the amount of explosive running players do. It’s pretty easy to kick the ball straight when you don’t run, different story when you’re heavily fatigued.

But I agree that there is some woeful techniques within our team.

[hujsh]

Good points.

Comments on the forum suggest that both the field kicking and shots at goal were terrible in the first quarter of Sunday’s game. Personally I thought it was close to the worst I have seen.

Missing goals from 35 metres must be fixable.

The same goes for missing a teammate on their own 30 metres away when not under pressure.

Between now and the start of the season there is plenty of time, If the problem is acknowledged and the desire to fix it is present.

For what it’s worth I absolutely agree that something has to be done to address our goal kicking. If there’s a way to do it the field kicking as well

[Mofra]

What are you trying to say about Coniglio - has he gotten better or worse?
From a team perspective - worse.
It may be at instruction from the coaching group but from the outside looking in that seems unlikely.

[Mofra]

For what it’s worth I absolutely agree that something has to be done to address our goal kicking. If there’s a way to do it the field kicking as well
There has to be a way - Dunkley and Naughton have improved their field kicking since entering our system.

[Axe Man]

Interesting theory on skill decline

Nick Dal Santo says kids are having ‘a million touches less’ of the footy growing up (https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2019-nick-dal-santo-says-kids-are-having-a-million-touches-less-of-the-footy-growing-up-on-fox-footy-podcast/news-story/7126c5f6309b376a3eca44b93cd79e4c?fbclid=IwAR0W5MpYsrHZaHBSSd Uyq5K_GETUgn_6w-YinrFPwWA1OVngvNmitvvWKWc)

AFL draftees having “a million touches less” of a footy as kids is contributing to a decline in the overall skill level of the competition, according to St Kilda and North Melbourne champion Nick Dal Santo.
Fans and experts alike have been scathing of player skill level in 2019, with overall goalkicking accuracy continuing to decline this season. Notably, Melbourne great Garry Lyon declared the overall skill level is “deplorable”.

Many theories have been floated as to why this is happening, given that with advancements in sports science players should only be getting better.

While Dal Santo believes that many factors are to blame - such as increased defensive pressure - he told the Fox Footy Podcast his pet theory was that new AFL players just didn’t have enough experience with ball sports growing up.

“When we were growing up, we didn’t have social media. We would’ve had computer games, but I know for me, all I did was be outside and play sport,” he said.

“I loved basketball, I loved golf, I loved football clearly. I was happy to do anything that would get me out of class. I played at recess, I played at lunch time, I played with my mates post-school.

“I don’t think kids are having this amount of time with a football in their hand. I don’t think they experience the amount of variety and playing with a ball, peripheral vision ... and then how that can translate onto a footy field and the beauty of that.

“To put it really simply, kids by the age of 18 getting drafted could be a million touches less than what we were.

“So I think once they get to AFL level, they’ve missed out on all that education. All that time of decision making, holding the football differently and still trying to kick a drop punt.”

The Saints great admitted he had issues with players during his time in the AFL making skill errors, but he feels it has gotten worse in recent seasons.

“I used to get frustrated. There’s a lot of things on the footy field I couldn’t do, but I used to rate my kicking. I used to have confidence that if I got the footy under pressure, I could pretty much kick it to a teammate,” he said.

“So I used to get frustrated at other teammates, particularly when you had a free-flowing passage of play where you could see ‘well if I get to that position, the ball has to get to me’ and then you realise it doesn’t because there’s a poor skill error or a silly mistake or decision.

“But even now sitting back and trying to remove myself from being that player ... I just think as a whole, the game’s been diluted as a beautiful product because the skill level generically has gone backwards - or hasn’t improved.”

However Dal Santo also believes the increased defensive pressure being put on players is playing a role in the current issues.

He pointed to Adam Treloar’s brilliant performance against lowly Gold Coast as an example of what players can do when not under quite as much pressure.

Treloar had 35 disposals and 19 kicks against the Suns - the latter his second-most for the season. But he also had his second-best disposal and kicking efficiency for the year, at 91.4 per cent and 84.2 per cent respectively.

“Adam Treloar on the weekend had one of his greatest games with disposal efficiency and kicking efficiency,” Dal Santo said.

“Is it any coincidence that it was against the Gold Coast Suns, and the pressure wasn’t on him?

“When players have got a little bit more time, they kick the footy a lot better. Adam Treloar in my opinion hasn’t been a great decision-maker/skill executer for most of this year but on the weekend when the pressure wasn’t there, he looks like a rock star.”

[Twodogs]

I pretty much always had a footy in my hands until my late teens. If I wasn't holding a footy then it meant that I had just kicked it to someone. I even slept with one until I was 14-15.