A little something to ponder...

[bulldogtragic]

This team smashed two Top 8 teams in two weeks, with goal runs of 21 & 12.

Due to injury, Liberatore, Wallis, Daniel and English (today) missed. Take some time to ponder how to get them into the 22.

Now ponder the clubs aggressive player acquisition strategy, that has as much as $2M to back up trading picks. Ponder landing Tomlinson/Keith, Tippa & Jack Martin (experienced, mature role players of much talent). Ponder how you fit them in with Liberatore, Wallis, Daniel & English.

Ponder that we have a heap of kids still nowhere near their talent ceiling: Naughton, Le Young, Schache, English, Dunkley, Lippa, Richards, West, Smith etc. (all signed next year and far beyond). Then a solid group of kids and role players at the VFL level looking to make it themselves.

After you've pondered the above, ponder what happens now and for some years if the 22 selected each week players with the consistently displayed effort, application and skill.

Ponder.

[ledge]

This team smashed two Top 8 teams in two weeks, with goal runs of 21 & 12.

Due to injury, Liberatore, Wallis, Daniel and English (today) missed. Take some time to ponder how to get them into the 22.

Now ponder the clubs aggressive player acquisition strategy, that has as much as $2M to back up trading picks. Ponder landing Tomlinson/Keith, Tippa & Jack Martin (experienced, mature role players of much talent). Ponder how you fit them in with Liberatore, Wallis, Daniel & English.

Ponder that we have a heap of kids still nowhere near their talent ceiling: Naughton, Le Young, Schache, English, Dunkley, Lippa, Richards, West, Smith etc. (all signed next year and far beyond). Then a solid group of kids and role players at the VFL level looking to make it themselves.

After you've pondered the above, ponder what happens now and for some years if the 22 selected each week players with the consistently displayed effort, application and skill.

Ponder.
I pity Sam Power he will have some hard decisions to make trading or delisting very good players in the near future.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I thought about it and all I can say is that it is a very exiting pls d to be.

That is why when people or the media are telling about trade rumours. We have no one in that conversation wanting to leave.

With the efforts of Bont and Dunks we should hire a plain and fly the entire team to the states over the pre season

[jeemak]

Ponder the difference between perspectives from before and after the bye!

Alas, our structural weaknesses will not improve unless we get at last one tall defender and some cover in the ruck. If we can manage to nail those two areas then the sky will be the limit.

[azabob]

Ponder the difference between perspectives from before and after the bye!

Alas, our structural weaknesses will not improve unless we get at last one tall defender and some cover in the ruck. If we can manage to nail those two areas then the sky will be the limit.

If we get a key defender can Trengrove be the ruck cover?

[Mofra]

If we get a key defender can Trengrove be the ruck cover?
Trengove is still our no 1 KPD. He's one of the best in the comp when it comes to one on ones, marginally behind McGovern. Massively underrated. Just lucky we have him to play him where needed.

[comrade]

Ponder the difference between perspectives from before and after the bye!

It’s amazing what happens when Dunks isn’t rotting away in the forward line while Billy Gowers gets extended minutes in the centre.

[Rocket Science]

It’s amazing what happens when Dunks isn’t rotting away in the forward line while Billy Gowers gets extended minutes in the centre.

Strewth, is he *still* on the list?

Seems like an eternity ago. I don't wanna go back.

[bornadog]

It’s amazing what happens when Dunks isn’t rotting away in the forward line while Billy Gowers gets extended minutes in the centre.

Dunks was playing midfield before the bye. He played forward in the first few rounds, with some midfield time.

[jeemak]

If we get a key defender can Trengrove be the ruck cover?

Possibly, but I would think only for next year and year after that at a stretch?

[GVGjr]

Trengove is still our no 1 KPD. He's one of the best in the comp when it comes to one on ones, marginally behind McGovern. Massively underrated. Just lucky we have him to play him where needed.

I like him as a spare parts player but yes we underrate him, we could still do with another KP defender and a ruck man though

[jeemak]

It’s amazing what happens when Dunks isn’t rotting away in the forward line while Billy Gowers gets extended minutes in the centre.

Has this not been done to death already?

There's much more to our turnaround than one positional change and Gowers being out of the side.

[jeemak]

Strewth, is he *still* on the list?

Seems like an eternity ago. I don't wanna go back.

He's completely dropped off my radar, I wonder what his future holds. He will be sweating on Dickson retiring you'd think, and depending on how we trade might be considering if he's best suited elsewhere.

[comrade]

Has this not been done to death already?

There's much more to our turnaround than one positional change and Gowers being out of the side.

That was just one example.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It’s amazing what happens when Dunks isn’t rotting away in the forward line while Billy Gowers gets extended minutes in the centre.

I think we should acknowledge the adjustment the Match Committee made, rather than pan Dunkley playing forward.
1. Dunks playing forward was a numbers game. We needed to fit a bunch of blokes in the squad and they all couldn't play significant minutes in the mids.
2. Given above, I think the MC made a logical call to play Dunks and Mclean up forward in the knowledge they are best 22. Its not like the forward line was foreign territory for them both, given they'd performed more than admirably there in 2016.
3. Fantastic that the MC adjusted their strategy when evidence over a number of games suggested it wasn't working.

[macca]

I pity Sam Power he will have some hard decisions to make trading or delisting very good players in the near future.

Its a good problem to have
But we need to make tough calls on guys like Jong , porter , Lynch , Webb, Greene and williams

In the last 2 weeks there is a sense of ruthlessness we have exhibited in the last half
21 goals vs cheats in a row last week
12 goals today against a plasticis

Against 2 teams above us

Brisbane and geelong were like this during their premiership trifectas

I am truly excited and hope we can land a big fish during next trade period

[jeemak]

That was just one example.

Out of interest what do you think the biggest change is? It's hard for me to get the whole picture as I can't get to games.

Our ball movement has been much better from what I have been able to see on TV, and we don't seem to get as exposed over the back as we were earlier which tells me we're not pressing forward as hard and generally running to the right spots at the right time.

Having both Schache and Naughton contributing and creating contests really helps us as well. Our defence even though not perfectly structured from a personnel perspective, and form has been stable and stability really helps no matter what.

Mostly though I think it's the effort that has become more consistent within games, and you can really tell when that drops away (see the Saints game for a prime example). It's a cliche, but if we actually bring the required effort we can be competitive.

[jeemak]

I think we should acknowledge the adjustment the Match Committee made, rather than pan Dunkley playing forward.
1. Dunks playing forward was a numbers game. We needed to fit a bunch of blokes in the squad and they all couldn't play significant minutes in the mids.
2. Given above, I think the MC made a logical call to play Dunks and Mclean up forward in the knowledge they are best 22. Its not like the forward line was foreign territory for them both, given they'd performed more than admirably there in 2016.
3. Fantastic that the MC adjusted their strategy when evidence over a number of games suggested it wasn't working.

It's a really good example of wanting all your good players in the side if you can without giving away too much structurally. Usually injury and form has a way of working these things out though, and it didn't really work for us.

[kruder]

I think the beauty is the fact that we don't have to land a big fish in the trade period.

We now have a nucleus that has grown together, we have added further elite talent in Naughty,Smith and English and all we need now is needs based quality role payers which is absolutely achievable with the cap space we have.

We should also need to ponder Jamarra Ugle-Hagan joining the dogs in 2021;)

[bulldogtragic]

JUH & MacPherson will be more than welcome additions for sure.

I don't think we need to land any 'big fishes' and I'd prefer we don't chase the Cogs etc. We already have current crop of big fishes and future big fishes on the list. What I think we need is several players moving into their best years of footy (25-27yo), in roles we really need. Tomlinson, Martin & Tippa (as the media has us linked to) would be an ideal outcome. Tall defender, quick small forward and outside/inside class and run. These guys at their peak will be playing with a lot of our guys at their peak is a good recipe. As Jee as mentioned, some ruck cover would be ideal as well. Adding in elite priority access players is just us being greedy! And I love it!!

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

JUH & MacPherson will be more than welcome additions for sure.

I don't think we need to land any 'big fishes' and I'd prefer we don't chase the Cogs etc. We already have current crop of big fishes and future big fishes on the list. What I think we need is several players moving into their best years of footy (25-27yo), in roles we really need. Tomlinson, Martin & Tippa (as the media has us linked to) would be an ideal outcome. Tall defender, quick small forward and outside/inside class and run. These guys at their peak will be playing with a lot of our guys at their peak is a good recipe. As Jee as mentioned, some ruck cover would be ideal as well. Adding in elite priority access players is just us being greedy! And I love it!!

If JUH is as good as what he's putting up in the juniors...we are in for a treat as supporters over the next decade with Naughton, Schache and him up front.
I will be livid if the AFL finds a way to deny our access to the kid.

[bulldogtragic]

If JUH is as good as what he's putting up in the juniors...we are in for a treat as supporters over the next decade with Naughton, Schache and him up front.
I will be livid if the AFL finds a way to deny our access to the kid.

Ozza said recently something about not being too stressed about things, although the AFEL is liable to change for no reason from that point in time. Mofra the other day pointed out JUH is sharing and liking dogs stuff on social media. So he thinks he's coming to us or winding us all up in order to get to Hawthorn...

[The bulldog tragician]

It really is fascinating where the improvement has come from. After the Carlton win I think we were all despondent at how we were performing. We really looked like a team out of ideas.

I feel chemistry has grown in the mid field. And I’m not that sure we are missing Libba and Wally as much as we thought...and, an unpopular view no doubt, but Caleb Daniel not in backline makes us a better team.

And we underestimated the self belief that the group retained. There’s a glint in the eyes of Bont, Macrae, Dunkley et al. They want to get back up there and they’re committed to making it happen again.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I think the beauty is the fact that we don't have to land a big fish in the trade period.

We now have a nucleus that has grown together, we have added further elite talent in Naughty,Smith and English and all we need now is needs based quality role payers which is absolutely achievable with the cap space we have.

We should also need to ponder Jamarra Ugle-Hagan joining the dogs in 2021;)

What are your thoughts on chasing a Rance or Davis type. We could easily use s big key general down back. Captaincy on the table if needed. I’m sure the Bont wouldn’t mind.

[jeemak]

JUH & MacPherson will be more than welcome additions for sure.

I don't think we need to land any 'big fishes' and I'd prefer we don't chase the Cogs etc. We already have current crop of big fishes and future big fishes on the list. What I think we need is several players moving into their best years of footy (25-27yo), in roles we really need. Tomlinson, Martin & Tippa (as the media has us linked to) would be an ideal outcome. Tall defender, quick small forward and outside/inside class and run. These guys at their peak will be playing with a lot of our guys at their peak is a good recipe. As Jee as mentioned, some ruck cover would be ideal as well. Adding in elite priority access players is just us being greedy! And I love it!!

Some in the media believe we only have a couple of elite players in Bontempelli and Macrae, with Dunkley on the door step, and a heap of really good footballers at the next level.

How many of that next level will turn into genuinely elite players? Given Naughton is leading the competition for contested marks as a 19 year old you might make an argument to already put him in that bracket, but for mine he'll get there but isn't quite yet (providing he works on his goal kicking over summer - and gets a little help from the umpires in the future). Bailey Smith looks like he will in time, and who knows what English could be or how long it will take to get there.

Six genuine competition elite players supported by a blend of really good players is great, but an elite key defender would be the ultimate and would improve us immensely. But, if one isn't available then so be it, we can settle for really good for the time being, but we should always be doing what we can to find one because they are invaluable in stopping the opposition and helping launch attacks.

[bulldogtragic]

Some in the media believe we only have a couple of elite players in Bontempelli and Macrae, with Dunkley on the door step, and a heap of really good footballers at the next level.

How many of that next level will turn into genuinely elite players? Given Naughton is leading the competition for contested marks as a 19 year old you might make an argument to already put him in that bracket, but for mine he'll get there but isn't quite yet (providing he works on his goal kicking over summer - and gets a little help from the umpires in the future). Bailey Smith looks like he will in time, and who knows what English could be or how long it will take to get there.

Six genuine competition elite players supported by a blend of really good players is great, but an elite key defender would be the ultimate and would improve us immensely. But, if one isn't available then so be it, we can settle for really good for the time being, but we should always be doing what we can to find one because they are invaluable in stopping the opposition and helping launch attacks.

I don't see one being available (I wouldn't mind being wrong), but the best two unsigned are Tomlinson & Keith and we've been mentioned as interested in both. I agree with you on grabbing one in they become available. If we can sure up a very good best 22 for years to come, then I have no problem in trying to trade most years like Hawthorn did. There's going to be a new CBA and players moving to retirement (Dicko, Suckling, Trengove, Wood etc) so we still should be well placed to have some money to put at one important target. I'd agree, that's a KPD with a gun midfield with Naughton, Schache & JUH.

[jeemak]

Schache is an interesting proposition BT. He's managing to regularly impact the scoreboard without being an aerial threat, even though he is bringing the ball to ground often which is great, but how is he classified if he can take some more contested marks and get on the end of forward moves regularly?

I think our depth of talent will allow us to be really bold at the trade table. For instance, if EFC loses McDonald-Tipungwuti, and Daniher this year, and slide, a player like Hurley might not want to stick around for a rebuild and a club like us could prise him loose (and finally spend the Hurley money on Hurley!). We'd hopefully have some currency at the trade table if everyone develops like we hope they will.

That's just one example, but we should always be trying to raid the talent of other clubs, they'll try and do it to us so stuff them!

[bulldogtragic]

Schache is an interesting proposition BT. He's managing to regularly impact the scoreboard without being an aerial threat, even though he is bringing the ball to ground often which is great, but how is he classified if he can take some more contested marks and get on the end of forward moves regularly?

I think our depth of talent will allow us to be really bold at the trade table. For instance, if EFC loses McDonald-Tipungwuti, and Daniher this year, and slide, a player like Hurley might not want to stick around for a rebuild and a club like us could prise him loose (and finally spend the Hurley money on Hurley!). We'd hopefully have some currency at the trade table if everyone develops like we hope they will.

That's just one example, but we should always be trying to raid the talent of other clubs, they'll try and do it to us so stuff them!

I think Schache is going to be a player, I've always thought that. In time I think the closest example, in my eyes, and not exactly like for likes is Kennedy & Darling.

Kennedy (Naughton) has those vice like hands. Moves well, takes the best defender and averages 2.5 goals a game.
Darling (Schache) covers the ground well. Has a knock early on about physicality but grew into his body and averages 1.8 goals a game. Getting better year on year.
As a team these two work well, pose different threats, and bring the other forwards into the game.

Josh since coming back has kicked 16.3. That's an elite pocket of form, plus GAs etc. Despite his poorer games this year Josh is 20th on the goal kicking average per game, averaging 1.8 goals (Darling's career average). Despite being the youngest on the list ahead of him. If this is him developing as a player, and finding consistency as a player I would be happy. But he's still so young (21) and got so much more to grow. He will start to take an extra mark or two (his marking is down this year on average), and maybe get closer attention from the umpires too. With his accuracy there's no reason to think he can't jump from 1.8 towards 2-2.5 goals a game. His career average goal per game has been 0.9, 0.9, 1.3 & 1.8 this year. It's a trend that will continue, especially with improved forward entries like this year.

My biased view is that he will move to elite or close to elite within two years. I say that because he's forward partner only started playing forward 4 months ago. Yet we can lock them in for 4-5 goals a game already. If we can get them a gun assistant forward coach, the leading patterns, understanding and forward craft will make both of them better players. As Naughton gets better, I see that Schache gets the lesser KPD which is better for him. If they can more frequently seperate there's hopefully more of a chance Schache doesn't have a pack around him. Plus Schache's tank gives him a huge advantage in working out different opponents. He's just going to get better and I love a kid who kicks 16.3 in a period. The heart rate relaxes when he has it (38.17 in 25 games for us = goal accuracy of circa 70% accurate. That's Tory Dickson like levels since Josh has come across).

But I've always said I'm biased on Josh (& Tom before him).

The Hurley Money on Hurley. Is Hurley still worth Hurley money? :D (I'd do it in a heart beat)

[jeemak]

I have always found the commentary around Schache a bit puzzling. Even now commentators talk about him finally showing us what he is capable of. The guy's a raw 21 year old and 199cm tall! He was always going to take time, and sure, like any young player has things he needs to work on and for him that was his intensity and willingness to stay involved.

He's sublimely talented and is becoming more and more competitive each week, and it also seems as if he is happy. The last bit is important.

[Hotdog60]

Hurley had his chance so I say stuff him.
As for a forward coach we should be in Roughead's ear. Newly out of the system with a successful club he would be a benefit to our young forwards.
I have read on here that he's bound to another club.

[Twodogs]

I think Schache is going to be a player, I've always thought that. In time I think the closest example, in my eyes, and not exactly like for likes is Kennedy & Darling.

Kennedy (Naughton) has those vice like hands. Moves well, takes the best defender and averages 2.5 goals a game.
Darling (Schache) covers the ground well. Has a knock early on about physicality but grew into his body and averages 1.8 goals a game. Getting better year on year.
As a team these two work well, pose different threats, and bring the other forwards into the game.

Josh since coming back has kicked 16.3. That's an elite pocket if form, plus GAs etc. Despite his poorer games this year Josh is 20th on the comp goal kicking tally and averaging 1.8 goals (Darling's career average). If this is him developing as a player, and finding consistency as a player I would be happy. But he's still so young (21) and got so much more to grow. He will start to take an extra mark or two (his marking is down this year on average), and maybe get closer attention from the umpires too. With his accuracy there's no reason to think he can't jump from 1.8 towards 2-2.5 goals a game. His career average goal per game has been 0.9, 0.9, 1.3 & 1.8 this year. It's a trend that will continue, especially with improved forward entries like this year.

My biased view is that he will move to elite or close to elite within two years. I say that because he's forward partner only started playing forward 4 months ago. Yet we can lock them in for 4-5 goals a game already. If we can get them a gun assistant forward coach, the leading patterns, understanding and forward craft will make both of them better players. As Naughton gets better, I see that Schache gets the lesser KPD which is better for him. If they can more frequently seperate there's hopefully more of a chance Schache doesn't have a pack around him. Plus Schache's tank gives him a huge advantage in working out different opponents. He's just going to get better and I love a kid who kicks 16.3 in a period. The heart rate relaxes when he has it (38.17 in 25 games for us).

But I've always said I'm biased on Josh (& Tom before him).

The Hurley Money on Hurley. Is Hurley still worth Hurley money? :D (I'd do it in a heart beat)

I thought that you had measured your heart rate and written it down for a second.

[bulldogtragic]

I have always found the commentary around Schache a bit puzzling. Even now commentators talk about him finally showing us what he is capable of. The guy's a raw 21 year old and 199cm tall! He was always going to take time, and sure, like any young player has things he needs to work on and for him that was his intensity and willingness to stay involved.

He's sublimely talented and is becoming more and more competitive each week, and it also seems as if he is happy. The last bit is important.

Exactly. We may as well not count the Brisbane years. Homesickness and stress is not conducive to development. He's happy and now he's looking comfortable out there. Last week when he took an advantage and snapped a 35m goal absolutely nonchalantly, right through the exact middle, I was thinking to myself that's a guy whose comfortable and confident at the level (and a rare talent). The smiles and high fives was nice too.

If we've learnt anything as a group of Bulldogs people, it's to tell commentators (inc. Leigh Matthews & Black Soul) to *!*!*!*! off and support our own. Embrace them, encourage them and support them. We will feel better for it, and our players will be better (if even minorly) for it. Don't get me wrong, there's room for criticism and honest opinion on form. But he's tracking really well for a 21 year old.

[bulldogtragic]

Hurley had his chance so I say stuff him.
As for a forward coach we should be in Roughead's ear. Newly out of the system with a successful club he would be a benefit to our young forwards.
I have read on here that he's bound to another club.

Roughy would be ideal. There were years where he and Buddy were just all out for anything. Then Buddy's last year where the focus was him and lessen going to Buddy. Games where they employed different roles as two KPFs. You'd think he'd have some ideas about developing plans using two KPFs in different ways but for maximum effect.

That would involve us letting some existing ones go.

[jeemak]

People make more of his form at Brisbane than what they should.

Here's a fun comparison with Tom Hawkins at the same age. Notice the weight difference:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=8&playerStatus2=A&tid2=10&type=A&pid1=4164&pid2=1759&fid1=O&fid2=O

[bulldogtragic]

Those pesky facts... :D

[Dry Rot]

Everyone, repeat after me:

TOMLINSON IS NOT A KEY POSITION DEFENDER.

[jeemak]

Everyone, repeat after me:

TOMLINSON IS NOT A KEY POSITION DEFENDER.

His name was Robert Paulsen.

[bornadog]

Everyone, repeat after me:

TOMLINSON IS NOT A KEY POSITION DEFENDER.

Thankyou, I have said that all along. Not a player we need at this stage.

[GVGjr]

Thankyou, I have said that all along. Not a player we need at this stage.

Can you please add your logic behind that though? We need context

Originally it was because he wasn't tall enough wasn't it?

[1eyedog]

Can you please add your logic behind that though? We need context

Originally it was because he wasn't tall enough wasn't it?

Where do you see him playing if you're still interested in him that is?

If anything I'd see him as a third tall Cordy-type. I can't see him in our midfield and I think we'll rob Peter to pay Paul having him on a wing. Forward is a possibility but he hasn't played there a lot.

Not sure how he works now.

[Mofra]

I like him as a spare parts player but yes we underrate him, we could still do with another KP defender and a ruck man though
Yep - I think we need a legitimate intercepting KPD (Keath). Compliments Trengove perfectly.

I wonder how we view Sweet after a pre-season. Doesn't have an AFL tank this year but might be ready as a back-up next year.

[Mofra]

Everyone, repeat after me:

TOMLINSON IS NOT A KEY POSITION DEFENDER.
Yep.
He would be handy though. Can pinch hit anywhere, great kick for goal yesterday. Barlow with aggression.

[comrade]

Yep - I think we need a legitimate intercepting KPD (Keath). Compliments Trengove perfectly.

I wonder how we view Sweet after a pre-season. Doesn't have an AFL tank this year but might be ready as a back-up next year.

Having an additional mature KPD means if English does go down for a week here and there, Trengove can provide decent coverage.

[GVGjr]

Yep - I think we need a legitimate intercepting KPD (Keath). Compliments Trengove perfectly.

I wonder how we view Sweet after a pre-season. Doesn't have an AFL tank this year but might be ready as a back-up next year.

Currently Sweet will need to improve both his tank and his footy IQ in my opinion but another year as a rookie will tell the story if he has the talent. His tap work is good but if he improves his mobility he might be a chance

[bornadog]

Can you please add your logic behind that though? We need context

Originally it was because he wasn't tall enough wasn't it?

Going over old ground.

I go by the adage, draft the best available and trade for needs.

I believe our needs are:

* Key Position Defender - Tomlinson is not that player.

* Speedy outside mid/winger -

* Small goal sneak, ala, Betts, Cameron type.

We are covered in most other areas.

[The Doctor]

Going over old ground.

I go by the adage, draft the best available and trade for needs.

I believe our needs are:

* Key Position Defender - Tomlinson is not that player.

* Speedy outside mid/winger -

* Small goal sneak, ala, Betts, Cameron type.

We are covered in most other areas.

We need another specialist ruckman. Not a makeshift one.

[bornadog]

We need another specialist ruckman. Not a makeshift one.

Yes, agree we can add that in as well.

My point is Tomlinson maybe a nice to have , but not a need.

[bulldogtragic]

Going over old ground.

I go by the adage, draft the best available and trade for needs.

I believe our needs are:

* Key Position Defender - Tomlinson is not that player. Media link to Keith also. (Darcy Moore manager denies a link) .

* Speedy outside mid/winger - Media link to Martin, Hill & Langdon (Isaac Smith denies a link)

* Small goal sneak, ala, Betts, Cameron type. - Media link to Tippa. Jamie Elliott not signed yet.

We are covered in most other areas.

A genuine back up or alternate ruck would be great, but I'm reluctant to think this will happen. Although a few might be out there 'maybe' including Cegler and Paddy Ryder.

[Twodogs]

Going over old ground.

I go by the adage, draft the best available and trade for needs.

I believe our needs are:

* Key Position Defender - Tomlinson is not that player.

* Speedy outside mid/winger -

* Small goal sneak, ala, Betts, Cameron type.

We are covered in most other areas.


That should be written on a huge banner on the wall of the recruiter's office. The golden rule of recruiting.

[Bulldog4life]

Elliot is a free Agent too. Last I read he was determined to stay at Collingwood although his last contract was for only one year because of injury. Still you would think might be gettable depending on what Collingwood offers him this time.

[mjp]

Elliot is a free Agent too. Last I read he was determined to stay at Collingwood although his last contract was for only one year because of injury. Still you would think might be gettable depending on what Collingwood offers him this time.

Is Elliot a small forward? He's more like a tall forward in a small body...I would think we need a crumber more than an Elliot type.

[Mofra]

We've signalled we'll be aggressive at trade week BUT... our signings suggest we want to keep as much of the team together as possible, which is not necessarily a bad thing. We're clearly nailing our colours to the mast of the current midfield group + English so I'm not even sure we look at an experienced ruck.

We have a truckload of cap space but I can see us picking up 1-2 role players and that's it. I'd be willing to pay heavily for Keath as a 197cm intercept marking KPD who can kick as he would suit us perfectly, with maybe another role player in the Lloyd/Crozier/Duryea category.
Having extra cap will really help us keep the team together and I have no doubt when we take 3-4 kids next year from NGA/FS (all one 2 year base salary) we'll have cap space for the next couple of years too just in case another FA bobs up.
IIRC Wood signed a deal after 2016 on big coin.

[azabob]

Mofra I am really enjoying your list management analysis and perspective.

It’s well reasoned and thought out.

[Mantis]

As per others I'm all for grabbing an experienced KPD and a quick defensive minded small forward as I see those area's of greatest concern on our list. Potentially Young and maybe West/ Cavarra will develop into these roles, but some additional coverage would be welcomed.

Given the way our players have developed in the 2nd part of the season & with lost of $$ in the salary cap to spare we are in an extremely strong position heading into the next 3-5 years.. Fun times ahead!

[bulldogtragic]

We've signalled we'll be aggressive at trade week BUT... our signings suggest we want to keep as much of the team together as possible, which is not necessarily a bad thing. We're clearly nailing our colours to the mast of the current midfield group + English so I'm not even sure we look at an experienced ruck.

We have a truckload of cap space but I can see us picking up 1-2 role players and that's it. I'd be willing to pay heavily for Keath as a 197cm intercept marking KPD who can kick as he would suit us perfectly, with maybe another role player in the Lloyd/Crozier/Duryea category.
Having extra cap will really help us keep the team together and I have no doubt when we take 3-4 kids next year from NGA/FS (all one 2 year base salary) we'll have cap space for the next couple of years too just in case another FA bobs up.
IIRC Wood signed a deal after 2016 on big coin.

I can see the merit in a strategy like this, but I think with the money and picks we should aim a bit higher, but not extreme. Where I'm at is 3 picks at the draft, and 3 trades. 6 spots need to open up: Picken, Boyd, Morris (Ret), Williams (traded), Roberts & Webb make 6. Dickson stays if that's what is wanted by Power & Bevo. So the list is pretty much in tact considering those six players have only played a couple of handfuls of games.

If the three players were for example (mature & experienced role players) Keath/Tomlinson (KPD), Jack Martin (classy runner) & Tippa (small quick forward) then these three players we are not going to fully exhaust our salary cap room (close though). The savings from Morris & Williams then lock away Bailey Smith and help lock away Schache etc.

To me it's the 'middle path' approach I'd like us to see, intelligent aggression on the trade front. When we have money and picks we should use them and make hay when the sun shines. We have such an amazing opportunity with the picks and money we have to propel us further again next year. Three trades for best 22 role players with three draft picks, and some cap left to nail down Smith and co. All while keeping the vast majority of the list together. So I'm on three trades, three draft picks, and therefore six changes and more key re-signings with cap room left over.

[bornadog]

As per others I'm all for grabbing an experienced KPD and a quick defensive minded small forward as I see those area's of greatest concern on our list. Potentially Young and maybe West/ Cavarra will develop into these roles, but some additional coverage would be welcomed.

Given the way our players have developed in the 2nd part of the season & with lost of $$ in the salary cap to spare we are in an extremely strong position heading into the next 3-5 years.. Fun times ahead!

What is your opinion on Tomlinson?

[Mantis]

What is your opinion on Tomlinson?

He's a nice player who moves well and is a neat kick.. I would be interested in him at the right price, but believe his type isn't our most pressing need.

[GVGjr]

Going over old ground.

I go by the adage, draft the best available and trade for needs.

I believe our needs are:

* Key Position Defender - Tomlinson is not that player.

* Speedy outside mid/winger -

* Small goal sneak, ala, Betts, Cameron type.

We are covered in most other areas.

Why isn't Tomlinson that player? Is it still because he is too short?

[Mantis]

Why isn't Tomlinson that player? Is it still because he is too short?

I would think it's the type/style of player that Tomlinson is rather than his size, he is the perfect size for a KPD.. he just doesn't play as one.

Maybe we can mold him into this type of player, but given he's a 6-7 year player it is a stretch to think he can become a combative key defender.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Never seen it with Tomlinson - Young is a far better prospect and Tomlinson would cost a first round pick. He’s not great at any position; he’s basically a younger Trengove.

[bulldogtragic]

Never seen it with Tomlinson - Young is a far better prospect and Tomlinson would cost a first round pick. He’s not great at any position; he’s basically a younger Trengove.

Although being a free agent probably won't change your view.

[Twodogs]

Although being a free agent probably won't change your view.

Not really. If he isn't what we need then the fact he comes free is neither here nor there.

[bulldogtragic]

Not really. If he isn't what we need then the fact he comes free is neither here nor there.

A 194cm, 96kg, 26yo, played 136 games in a good side, played all 21 games this year averging 17.3 disposals and 6.2 marks at CHB with multiple career best numbers, and who has good disposal and skill.

I'm interested. I think he'd get a game on need with us. Free makes it better.

[Mantis]

A 194cm, 96kg, 26yo, played 136 games in a good side, played all 21 games this year averging 17.3 disposals and 6.2 marks at CHB with multiple career best numbers, and who has good disposal and skill.

I'm interested. I think he'd get a game on need with us. Free makes it better.

Is he really a CHB? Maybe I didn't watch all that closely, but I can't remember seeing him lining up on Schache or Naughton all tat often.

He's a HBF'er/ wingman.

[Twodogs]

A 194cm, 96kg, 26yo, played 136 games in a good side, played all 21 games this year averging 17.3 disposals and 6.2 marks at CHB with multiple career best numbers, and who has good disposal and skill.

I'm interested. I think he'd get a game on need with us. Free makes it better.

We already have a few of his type that I'd like us to be playing instead of bringing in a similar player on big money. I know we have plenty to spend but lets get the stucture right first.

[bulldogtragic]

Is he really a CHB? Maybe I didn't watch all that closely, but I can't remember seeing him lining up on Schache or Naughton all tat often.

He's a HBF'er/ wingman.

True. Perhaps just 'defender' (inc. high half back) would've been more accurate. That clarification aside, for the right wage as a free agent he'd be a handy addition for a mature player with his height, agility and skill.

[bulldogtragic]

We already have a few of his type that I'd like us to be playing instead of bringing in a similar player on big money. I know we have plenty to spend but lets get the stucture right first.

Who is similar? Roberts will be delisted. Young is still raw, but signs are good. Different to JT & Cordy. Probably closest to Wood as an athletic third tall sort. Tomlinson seems to have had a better year than Wood. But competition for spots is no issue.

The argument to go hard at Keath as an intercepting KPD (or similar) is a good one. But I wouldn't dismiss looking at Tomlinson.

[jeemak]

We actually need any player who makes us better!

Tomlinson would definitely make us better and we'd just end up paying what the market would end up paying him. He could definitely do a job for us, on the wings or in defence, and has improvement left in him like many talls his age do.

It's not likely we'll land the perfect defender, actually landing Tomlinson as a free agent would be fantastic, so while we can look elsewhere for that perfect defender there's no harm in keeping an eye on him.

[bulldogtragic]

And earlier in the year, when it was getting loud about our interest, the media were reporting we wanted him as a forward.

[bornadog]

We actually need any player who makes us better!

Tomlinson would definitely make us better and we'd just end up paying what the market would end up paying him. He could definitely do a job for us, on the wings or in defence, and has improvement left in him like many talls his age do.

It's not likely we'll land the perfect defender, actually landing Tomlinson as a free agent would be fantastic, so while we can look elsewhere for that perfect defender there's no harm in keeping an eye on him.

Based on the team that played on Sunday, who comes out for Tomlinson? I don't believe he makes us a better team.

[bornadog]

Why isn't Tomlinson that player? Is it still because he is too short?

He is just not a KPP. Not sure how many times I have to put my opinion forward. Just put the short thing aside.

[GVGjr]

I would think it's the type/style of player that Tomlinson is rather than his size, he is the perfect size for a KPD.. he just doesn't play as one.

Maybe we can mold him into this type of player, but given he's a 6-7 year player it is a stretch to think he can become a combative key defender.

He hasn't been used as one either this year. I don't mind anyone challenging his true position but the original diagnosis on him was because he was too short at 192cm when he was really 194cm

[GVGjr]

He is just not a KPP. Not sure how many times I have to put my opinion forward. Just put the short thing aside.

But you make sweeping statements about age, height and 'not wanting players near the club' without supporting it with valid reasons
If you don't want to be challenged about it again why did you quote Dry Rot's comment?

[GVGjr]

We actually need any player who makes us better!

Tomlinson would definitely make us better and we'd just end up paying what the market would end up paying him. He could definitely do a job for us, on the wings or in defence, and has improvement left in him like many talls his age do.

It's not likely we'll land the perfect defender, actually landing Tomlinson as a free agent would be fantastic, so while we can look elsewhere for that perfect defender there's no harm in keeping an eye on him.

Agreed, the best players play. Once we sorted out the selection mess earlier this season we've started to play our best football and hopefully that is a good lesson for us going forward

[bornadog]

But you make sweeping statements about age, height and 'not wanting players near the club' without supporting it with valid reasons
If you don't want to be challenged about it again why did you quote Dry Rot's comment?

So this is a sweeping statement:


Going over old ground.

I go by the adage, draft the best available and trade for needs.

I believe our needs are:

* Key Position Defender - Tomlinson is not that player.

* Speedy outside mid/winger -

* Small goal sneak, ala, Betts, Cameron type.

We are covered in most other areas.

I have already said this in another thread, we don't need a Tomlinson, we need a KPP. Just because I don't agree with you, you just want to keep at me. Not sure why

[GVGjr]

So this is a sweeping statement:

I have already said this in another thread, we don't need a Tomlinson, we need a KPP. Just because I don't agree with you, you just want to keep at me. Not sure why

I couldn't care less if you agree with me, it's a discussion forum not a cheer squad but you bumped Dry Rots comments without putting reasons forward and your original ones about his lack of height were incorrect

When pressed you eventually did provide some reasons

[bornadog]

I couldn't care less if you agree with me, it's a discussion forum not a cheer squad but you bumped Dry Rots comments without putting reasons forward and your original ones about his lack of height were incorrect

When pressed you eventually did provide some reasons

You didn't challenge DR?

My reasons were given in another thread.

[GVGjr]

You didn't challenge DR?

My reasons were given in another thread.

I was going to let sleeping dogs lie and your reasons for quoting it was?

[westbulldog]

I think we will draft well if recent history is any guide. Currently, I would only go after Keath and Jack Martin. Some good discussion on here.

[dog town]

A 194cm, 96kg, 26yo, played 136 games in a good side, played all 21 games this year averging 17.3 disposals and 6.2 marks at CHB with multiple career best numbers, and who has good disposal and skill.

I'm interested. I think he'd get a game on need with us. Free makes it better. He isn’t free though really because he is taking a spot on our list and good money. No price to the other club but by reaching to get someone across we could compromise our great cap position. We need to use this to land players we really need and players who are going to win games for us.

[Topdog]

I'd be surprised if we were not interested in a tall player that can run and is a very good user of the ball.

[Grantysghost]

I'd be surprised if we were not interested in a tall player that can run and is a very good user of the ball.

Tomlinson would be a great get I think. There aren't many KP defenders out there really? Look at how the Tigers set up with Grimes, Astbury, Broad, Rance when fit. It's all about a team of good defenders and he meets that criteria. Guess for me the caveat with all these things is the price. But I feel he is exactly what we need. At 193cm he is listed as the same height as Grimes.

[bulldogtragic]

He isn’t free though really because he is taking a spot on our list and good money. No price to the other club but by reaching to get someone across we could compromise our great cap position. We need to use this to land players we really need and players who are going to win games for us.

Free in the context of not having to give picks and/or players. And I personally would take him for all the reasons I've outlined (and others too) across many posts.

[Mofra]

True. Perhaps just 'defender' (inc. high half back) would've been more accurate. That clarification aside, for the right wage as a free agent he'd be a handy addition for a mature player with his height, agility and skill.
The media reports months ago said we were interested, but as a forward. IIRC he hasn't played much forward at GWS.

I think he'd make a great link player though, off the flanks or even rotating on a wing. Good tank, decent overhead, good kick. The Saints seem in the box seat though, they have a big offer in front of him.

[Mofra]

Based on the team that played on Sunday, who comes out for Tomlinson? I don't believe he makes us a better team.
Hayes or Dale.

Suckling has one year left too, although I really think Lachie Young will in a couple of years take that spot. I love his overhead ability and think he'll develop composure to really ail those lower percentage kicks he tries.

[Bullies]

I pity Sam Power he will have some hard decisions to make trading or delisting very good players in the near future. And you can see a lot of our players are playing well at other clubs as well - Adams/Stringer/Hamling/Dahl which says a lot about the system we have in place. We have been able to cover them and the injuries as well.

[Rocket Science]

This team smashed two Top 8 teams in two weeks, with goal runs of 21 & 12.

Due to injury, Liberatore, Wallis, Daniel and English (today) missed. Take some time to ponder how to get them into the 22.

Now ponder the clubs aggressive player acquisition strategy, that has as much as $2M to back up trading picks. Ponder landing Tomlinson/Keith, Tippa & Jack Martin (experienced, mature role players of much talent). Ponder how you fit them in with Liberatore, Wallis, Daniel & English.

Ponder that we have a heap of kids still nowhere near their talent ceiling: Naughton, Le Young, Schache, English, Dunkley, Lippa, Richards, West, Smith etc. (all signed next year and far beyond). Then a solid group of kids and role players at the VFL level looking to make it themselves.

After you've pondered the above, ponder what happens now and for some years if the 22 selected each week players with the consistently displayed effort, application and skill.

Ponder.

A little bit more to ponder ...

https://i.ibb.co/kDgnWy8/Screen-Shot-2019-08-20-at-2-23-58-pm.png (https://ibb.co/pKvD9Pz)

https://i.ibb.co/WWXsrxc/Screen-Shot-2019-08-20-at-2-24-19-pm.png (https://ibb.co/cc9xWgN)

I'm aroused.

[bornadog]

Hawks in trouble. Can't be bothered to rebuild or draft young players, they prefer to get ready made. It will bite them in the bum soon.

[hujsh]

Hawks in trouble. Can't be bothered to rebuild or draft young players, they prefer to get ready made. It will bite them in the bum soon.

You could argue they're a Tom Mitchell injury away from playing finals this year. How sustainable that is long term is another question but they seem to generally manage to be around the mark and seem keen to recruit more again this year (one reason I'd rather not help them out with cap relief unless we're sure it's beneficial to us).

[The Doctor]

We've signalled we'll be aggressive at trade week BUT... our signings suggest we want to keep as much of the team together as possible, which is not necessarily a bad thing. We're clearly nailing our colours to the mast of the current midfield group + English so I'm not even sure we look at an experienced ruck.


So what happens if English sustains a long term injury? All we have is Sweet as a specialist ruck. I don't want Trengove to be the replacement. We need him at FB as our defence has been much more settled with him anchoring the backline. An experienced ruck will add competition for a spot and cover for injuries. There are a few out there in the market around the 30yo and that is who I would be targeting.

[Mofra]

So what happens if English sustains a long term injury? All we have is Sweet as a specialist ruck. I don't want Trengove to be the replacement. We need him at FB as our defence has been much more settled with him anchoring the backline. An experienced ruck will add competition for a spot and cover for injuries. There are a few out there in the market around the 30yo and that is who I would be targeting.
I agree, but the list managers don't. Last year they were happy to go in with a LTI Boyd, Trengove (who trained as a ruck all pre-season), English and later a raw, underdone Sweet. All pre-season we went in with Trengove & English swapping forward, Schache permanent forward and Naughton KPD.

Maybe we will rookie some ruck cover this year but I'm not sure the club see it that way.

[jeemak]

You could argue they're a Tom Mitchell injury away from playing finals this year. How sustainable that is long term is another question but they seem to generally manage to be around the mark and seem keen to recruit more again this year (one reason I'd rather not help them out with cap relief unless we're sure it's beneficial to us).

You could also argue they're a couple more injuries away from being in all sorts.

[Bulldog Joe]

You could also argue they're a couple more injuries away from being in all sorts.

But it would be unfair for Hawthorn to get injuries.

They pillage other clubs and get previously injured players cheaply for trades and Hawthorn just make them better.

No way should they cop injuries to those experienced pick ups in their early thirties (or other younger long term injured at other clubs).

[Mofra]

But it would be unfair for Hawthorn to get injuries.

They pillage other clubs and get previously injured players cheaply for trades and Hawthorn just make them better.

No way should they cop injuries to those experienced pick ups in their early thirties (or other younger long term injured at other clubs).
Well they'll almost certainly add Patton next year. Big boy with 3 ACLs, that will really test them.

[Twodogs]

Well they'll almost certainly add Patton next year. Big boy with 3 ACLs, that will really test them.

I worry about Patton and that saying about never being a washed up full forward until you are a washed up full forward who finished his career with us.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'm most definitely aroused!

A little bit more to ponder ...

https://i.ibb.co/kDgnWy8/Screen-Shot-2019-08-20-at-2-23-58-pm.png (https://ibb.co/pKvD9Pz)

https://i.ibb.co/WWXsrxc/Screen-Shot-2019-08-20-at-2-24-19-pm.png (https://ibb.co/cc9xWgN)

I'm aroused.

[hujsh]

As long as we build on that stat this time instead of watching it crumble less than a year (2 if you count 2015) later

[ledge]

Well that will drop with Picken and maybe Morris, Dickson retiring/ delisted / traded .. of course depending who we pick up but I am thinking it will drop next year.

[hujsh]

Well that will drop with Picken and maybe Morris, Dickson retiring/ delisted / traded .. of course depending who we pick up but I am thinking it will drop next year.

Sorry I meant performance wise. More that if we have a young inexperienced team performing (youngest in finals when we won in 2016) I want that to translate into prolonged success. Less the stat itself changing.

[Bulldog Joe]

Well that will drop with Picken and maybe Morris, Dickson retiring/ delisted / traded .. of course depending who we pick up but I am thinking it will drop next year.

Doesn't the stat relate to the sides actually fielded across the year.

That would mean Picken has no impact and Morris is miniscule, with just 1 game.

[ledge]

Doesn't the stat relate to the sides actually fielded across the year.

That would mean Picken has no impact and Morris is miniscule, with just 1 game.

Not sure or is it the list in general ?

[Bulldog Joe]

Not sure or is it the list in general ?

The list does say teams played average, so it is relative to who actually have gotten on the park.