Jack Martin

[GVGjr]

I think he deserves his won thread because he will be a prime focus for a few clubs from this time going forward

The questions I'd like to hear about are:

What would be his best position with us?

Is he actually worth the hype?

Does he and can he deliver on his talent?

What would be a reasonable offer from a salary perspective for his services and for how long would the contract be?

For such a highly regarded player he hasn't quite delivered yet and I'd want to be confident that our club can extract the best out of him

I'd be very interested to hear your thought on the Pro's and Con's we need to consider before trading for Jack Martin

[ledge]

He will definitely be a better player in a better side.
Opportunist who can accumulate when moved up the ground , X factor , brings more than Stringer would have I think.
Good fit , better club and more professional.

[Go_Dogs]

He's a yes from me and I'd look to play him as a wing or high half forward.

From a trade point of view, I'd say a late first or early second and maybe a swap of picks the following year if we had too.

Salary - not close enough to these kinds of things, but I suppose we'd need to stump up around $600k a year to get a ticket. I'd be reluctant to go too much higher if we got a 4 year deal given consistency concerns.

He's a yes for me on the above basis, but would want to know he fits well with our playing group and will buy in.

[bulldogtragic]

He's a yes from me and I'd look to play him as a wing or high half forward.

From a trade point of view, I'd say a late first or early second and maybe a swap of picks the following year if we had too.

Salary - not close enough to these kinds of things, but I suppose we'd need to stump up around $600k a year to get a ticket. I'd be reluctant to go too much higher if we got a 4 year deal given consistency concerns.

He's a yes for me on the above basis, but would want to know he fits well with our playing group and will buy in.

Agree with much of this, especially late first rounder (or if it's sooner, something back in 2020). With the competition for his signature, I'm thinking 5 years at $600,000 would be minimum to win him over. Maybe a trigger for a sixth year. Winning a premiership or too nets him extra big cash on top too.

He has talent to burn, my estimation is that in a better set up and in a contending team we will see that talent reached. He can win his own ball as well as get it on the outside. Has good tackle numbers. So I think he's flexibile for to Bevo to play midfield, high half forward, wing or as a forward. His type is exactly what we need.

The risk is whether the time at GCS has resulted in an arrested development, or if this his best footy. To me his best footy is ahead of him in a team like ours where he has a clear role to address a clear need. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[comrade]

Look at a player like Scrimshaw. A top 10 pick that struggled to break into GC’s senior team last year, comes across to Hawks and a good program, suddenly looks a player again.

I think the same thing would happen with Martin.

[strebla]

$600 over for years is also a yes from me but the best question here is will he buy in!!! Our mids and high half worwards work hatter both ways that any other club not sure he has the work ethic but in the club I trust.

[Hotdog60]

Could we offer a player with the deal to get him across?
Would one of our fringe players like to make a move for more senior time.
I'm thinking someone like Webb who has been going ok in the two's but no vacancy in the seniors.
Age profile would help the Suns or may be Jong although he's having trouble staying on the park.
Just a thought.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Ok. Here's my thoughts.
I remember the lead up to that idiotic 'mini draft' that basically was another poorly thought out AFL 'initiative'.

Jack Martin was so, so, so hyped, He was driven, he was footy obsessed, he spent his whole life dreaming of playing footy. He drove himself with extra training and moved himself away from home to be in a better footy environment and follow his dream............and all the way he just kept impressing people on and off field. ( sound like anyone we know?????? Cough.....Bailey Smith.... cough) We were absolutely keen on him and would have taken him FOR SURE if we weren't asked for picks 5 AND 6 for him.

So........ we said shove it and took Stringer and Macrae.

He...........poor kid............get's drafted into the dead end cess pit called the Gold Coast suns. His whole glorious vision turns to pus.
He's basically treading water..............and dreaming, still, of REAL football.

It's like ending up a Rodeo Clown in the KOO WEE RUP rodeo, when you should have been Clint Eastwood.

My belief is you take that kid........you put him in a proper team, put him on the big stage,
with genuine leaders and authentic footy history and culture around him and he will shine.
We have money....... He's a type we are lacking in........... He's a good age profile............... I would take the gamble.

He's no Richard Tambling, who was also highly rated but bombed...........he's hung around for 5 years, is approaching 100 games and is a nudge over 6 foot. I would be absolutely thrilled if we could get him and I'd be happy to pay (slightly) overs rather than penny pinch and miss out on him.

[Dry Rot]

If it came down to a choice, would you choose Martin or Tippa?

Why?

[FrediKanoute]

Martin, there is just something about Tippa I don't think fits. I think he is a little one dimensional and in a good team could find himself struggling to hold his spot. I also think we have a few like him, whlist Martin can play forward, wing, probably even half back or through the middle.

[jeemak]

Ok. Here's my thoughts.
I remember the lead up to that idiotic 'mini draft' that basically was another poorly thought out AFL 'initiative'.

Jack Martin was so, so, so hyped, He was driven, he was footy obsessed, he spent his whole life dreaming of playing footy. He drove himself with extra training and moved himself away from home to be in a better footy environment and follow his dream............and all the way he just kept impressing people on and off field. ( sound like anyone we know?????? Cough.....Bailey Smith.... cough) We were absolutely keen on him and would have taken him FOR SURE if we weren't asked for picks 5 AND 6 for him.

So........ we said shove it and took Stringer and Macrae.

He...........poor kid............get's drafted into the dead end cess pit called the Gold Coast suns. His whole glorious vision turns to pus.
He's basically treading water..............and dreaming, still, of REAL football.

It's like ending up a Rodeo Clown in the KOO WEE RUP rodeo, when you should have been Clint Eastwood.

My belief is you take that kid........you put him in a proper team, put him on the big stage,
with genuine leaders and authentic footy history and culture around him and he will shine.
We have money....... He's a type we are lacking in........... He's a good age profile............... I would take the gamble.

He's no Richard Tambling, who was also highly rated but bombed...........he's hung around for 5 years, is approaching 100 games and is a nudge over 6 foot. I would be absolutely thrilled if we could get him and I'd be happy to pay (slightly) overs rather than penny pinch and miss out on him.

I'm a sucker for a good footywire compare, so here's Martin and Tambling at the same age. Big difference is Tambling's disposal efficiency, versus Martin's higher total disposals for the season at same age compared:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=24&playerStatus2=I&tid2=2&type=A&pid1=3915&pid2=1487&fid1=O&fid2=O

It should be noted that Richmond was essentially the same prospect as GCS in the time Tambling was drafted and playing there, he also had the added pressure of being taken ahead of players who ended up playing substantially better than he did early.

Anyway, it was too late for Tambling once he found his way to Adelaide. He still played 124 games which is nothing to sneeze at, but I can't help but think if he had have been in a better environment from an earlier stage in his career he would have blossomed more thoroughly. Hopefully the same fate doesn't befall Martin.

[dog town]

Martin, there is just something about Tippa I don't think fits. I think he is a little one dimensional and in a good team could find himself struggling to hold his spot. I also think we have a few like him, whlist Martin can play forward, wing, probably even half back or through the middle. Who have we got like Tippa?

[Mofra]

I'm still very keen on Martin but I now think we miss out. Carlton and Essendon going hard.
He wanted to go to Essendon last year and Carlton suddenly have the Cogs money available.

I'd be willing to give Keath his four years and look at another quality smaller mobile type if we miss out on Martin.

[bornadog]

I'm still very keen on Martin but I now think we miss out. Carlton and Essendon going hard.
He wanted to go to Essendon last year and Carlton suddenly have the Cogs money available.

I'd be willing to give Keath his four years and look at another quality smaller mobile type if we miss out on Martin.

This ^^

Keath is more the need at this stage. Would be good to get Martin, but I wouldn't be disappointed either.

[The Doctor]

I'm still very keen on Martin but I now think we miss out. Carlton and Essendon going hard.
He wanted to go to Essendon last year and Carlton suddenly have the Cogs money available.

I'd be willing to give Keath his four years and look at another quality smaller mobile type if we miss out on Martin.

I wouldn't be too spooked by Essendon & Carlton.

Essendon only have picks 29 & 31 so that won't get a deal done. They also have salary cap issues otherwise they would have signed up AMT by now.. They would have to trade out someone decent I would think. Daniher? Surely they wouldn't do that.

Carlton only have pick 8, then 39. They are very keen on Papley apparently and that would cost them pick 8 I would think.

I doubt future picks would be in the Suns interest either as they need to fix their problems sooner rather than later.

And for all this talk about everybody going to St Kilda well all they have is pick 5 (and Carlisle lol) which they will need for Brad Hill if he's interested in going there. Great list manager Lethlean!

We on the other hand have 5 excellent picks in the top 50 and lots of cap space coz "We Got the Power"! I'm not yet convinced we are going to be as trade active as everyone thinks. Bevo has said he wants to keep the group together and we are doing that especially if Dale & Williams stay on, and Dicko extends for another year. That will only leave us with 5 spots on the list & we have those 5 picks in the top 50 we can use in the draft if we wanted to. I think our strong finish to the season could well mean that our original intention to be major trade players could have subsided somewhat. Maybe we just do 1 trade. I would also expect to us to try and convert one or more of our 3rd rounders to future picks to help us with points for our NGA recruits. I guess we will soon see. But certainly the wholesale changes I thought might happen won't be happening.

[bulldogtragic]

I can't say the rationale is wrong, especially with Bevo wanting to keep the group together. My issue with the concept is that we should trade for needs and we have the money and trade currency to trade for 3 needs. The stars are aligning for us to do it this year. That extra talent and growth in incoming trades helps raise our talent profile in stead of solely relying on maturing players. With lots more kids next year at the draft, and being the youngest team often this year I think the year is right to pick up mature talent heading into next year.

I think the five outs are reasonably set. Which would only allow us two trades. Or we look at Dicko (unsigned) or someone requests a trade out for more opportunities and we oblige. But for me one extra player leaving, shouldn't upset the team to give us the option of looking at 3. As you say we will see what happens if and when players start saying 'yes' to Sam Power. That's a big first step.

[GVGjr]

Does anyone think our chances of landing Martin have slipped back a bit? The media speculation is Carlton and Essendon firming as likely destinations. I'm not sure we are out of it though

[Grantysghost]

Does anyone think our chances of landing Martin have slipped back a bit? The media speculation is Carlton and Essendon firming as likely destinations. I'm not sure we are out of it though

Yes, reading the tea leaves it does appear that way. Generally you will see some link in reports. If that's the case, we need to keep working on our indigenous program as a high priority. Brett Goodes leaving as well was a blow and I know was devastating to at least one future players family. I'm sure there's high quality people out there to fill his shoes. I think we are heading in the right direction, albeit maybe a bit late to satisfy Martin?
By the way do Essendon have bottomless cap space?

[bulldogtragic]

Does anyone think our chances of landing Martin have slipped back a bit? The media speculation is Carlton and Essendon firming as likely destinations. I'm not sure we are out of it though

It depends of the years, money and the role we have put forward him. I assume that hasn't changed and our pursuit hasn't slowed. The media pumping up 'big' (cheating, shit) clubs is nothing new.

[bulldogtragic]

Yes, reading the tea leaves it does appear that way. Generally you will see some link in reports. If that's the case, we need to keep working on our indigenous program as a high priority. Brett Goodes leaving as well was a blow and I know was devastating to at least one future players family. I'm sure there's high quality people out there to fill his shoes. I think we are heading in the right direction, albeit maybe a bit late to satisfy Martin?
By the way do Essendon have bottomless cap space?

No. They just don't have a salary cap.

[Grantysghost]

No. They just don't have a salary cap.

Someone needs to do a forensic audit (hint :cool:), with the big name money we know of (I think even Hooker gets 800k) they must be close.
Fortunately it's not helping them.

[ledge]

Someone needs to do a forensic audit (hint :cool:), with the big name money we know of (I think even Hooker gets 800k) they must be close.
Fortunately it's not helping them.

Did stringer get a decent contract ?
I would presume it wasn’t big as no one else was interested in him, and if they were at the start he turned them away with his behaviour.

[Grantysghost]

Did stringer get a decent contract ?
I would presume it wasn’t big as no one else was interested in him, and if they were at the start he turned them away with his behaviour.

The reports at the time were about 550k x 3.

[bulldogtragic]

Someone needs to do a forensic audit (hint :cool:), with the big name money we know of (I think even Hooker gets 800k) they must be close.
Fortunately it's not helping them.

I've long advocated the ATO need to get involved. But I'm still waiting.

[Bulldog4life]

Yes, reading the tea leaves it does appear that way. Generally you will see some link in reports. If that's the case, we need to keep working on our indigenous program as a high priority. Brett Goodes leaving as well was a blow and I know was devastating to at least one future players family. I'm sure there's high quality people out there to fill his shoes. I think we are heading in the right direction, albeit maybe a bit late to satisfy Martin?
By the way do Essendon have bottomless cap space?

I am behind the times as I wasn't aware of that. When did he leave?

[Twodogs]

I've long advocated the ATO need to get involved. But I'm still waiting.

In all seriousness that will happen. The Essendon TPP situation is a long way short of being over. The cowbows at AFL City Hall and the cheats at Essendon think they have outsmarted everyone and perhaps if this was only overseen by the AFL it would be. But the ATO will come calling soon and want to inspect their books and that is when the shit will really hit the fan.

[Grantysghost]

I am behind the times as I wasn't aware of that. When did he leave?

I heard about it a few weeks ago, I wasn't sure if the club were going to mention it so kept schtum. We are on the look out for a replacement there's a job advertised. Should be some quality candidates, but I wonder how it affects landing guys like Martin.

[Rocket Science]

Curious that Goodes' departure coincides with the club making it plain it's keen to attract and foster indigenous talent both on and off the field.

If nothing else it makes the Betts conversation a little juicier.

[mjp]

Should be some quality candidates, but I wonder how it affects landing guys like Martin.

There will be some good candidates, but none of this is an exact science in terms of mentorship/support structures for the aboriginal boys. Some won't care about the background of the person in the role. Others will want (and expect) them to be indigenous. Others will want and expect them to be indigenous BUT will only go to them for advice if the person is part of 'their' people.

So, we might get the best and most well qualified candidate in the world...and it still might not be enough. This stuff is tricky!!

[lemmon]

He reminds me a bit of Shaun Higgins when he was with us. Always 'looked' a player but never managed to string enough consistent footy together to cement himself as a really good player.

I like Martin and think he'd play well as a genuine winger but it's a lot of money for a bloke with pretty mediocre numbers. If we get him, I'll be happy, if we miss I think there's a lot of other good fish in the sea.

[1eyedog]

Think he wants to go to Essendon first Carlton next. Essendon have a fantastic history with Indigenous players, they were the first club to really procure Aboriginal players from South Australia and the Territory and Islands. They invested hard in these States in the 80s now you'll find an overwhelming proportion of Aboriginal people support Essendon (Long) , St Kilda (Winmar) or, the older ones, (Richmond) M Rioli. If Essendon are involved in Martin I'd almost guarantee that he finds his way there.

Our proposed Indigenous program is great, but it's 20 years too late. Better late than never I suppose but it will be a long time before we become a destination club for Indigebous people. Playing the Cairns and NT games helped as larger-scale Indigenous populations had an opportunity to see us live. We were also doing clinics outside Darwin within Indigenous communities, but for one economic reason or another we stopped playing there, so we dropped the bundle of extending our brand across these communities. It's a shame because one thing that connects Indigenous populations from W.A to Tassie to the islands to non-traditional AFL States like Queensland is that every Aboriginal kid knows how to play AFL footy. It's kinda like when I went to India in the late 90s and played street cricket in India, every Indian kid could bat and bowl. A far higher proportion of Aboriginal people live AFL as opposed to what we see outside Aboriginal populations, and that resource is under utilised.

A lot of work is needed with this Indigenous program. Hope the club invests in it properly, it could rake in great reward.

[comrade]

Think he wants to go to Essendon first Carlton next. Essendon have a fantastic history with Indigenous players, they were the first club to really procure Aboriginal players from South Australia and the Territory and Islands. They invested hard in these States in the 80s now you'll find an overwhelming proportion of Aboriginal people support Essendon (Long) , St Kilda (Winmar) or, the older ones, (Richmond) M Rioli. If Essendon are involved in Martin I'd almost guarantee that he finds his way there.

Our proposed Indigenous program is great, but it's 20 years too late. Better late than never I suppose but it will be a long time before we become a destination club for Indigebous people. Playing the Cairns and NT games helped as larger-scale Indigenous populations had an opportunity to see us live. We were also doing clinics outside Darwin within Indigenous communities, but for one economic reason or another we stopped playing there, so we dropped the bundle of extending our brand across these communities. It's a shame because one thing that connects Indigenous populations from W.A to Tassie to the islands to non-traditional AFL States like Queensland is that every Aboriginal kid knows how to play AFL footy. It's kinda like when I went to India in the late 90s and played street cricket in India, every Indian kid could bat and bowl. A far higher proportion of Aboriginal people live AFL as opposed to what we see outside Aboriginal populations, and that resource is under utilised.

A lot of work is needed with this Indigenous program. Hope the club invests in it properly, it could rake in great reward.

It’s kind of chicken and the egg isn’t it? You need a good program to help attract the playing talent, but you need playing talent to bolster the program.

[Grantysghost]

Think he wants to go to Essendon first Carlton next. Essendon have a fantastic history with Indigenous players, they were the first club to really procure Aboriginal players from South Australia and the Territory and Islands. They invested hard in these States in the 80s now you'll find an overwhelming proportion of Aboriginal people support Essendon (Long) , St Kilda (Winmar) or, the older ones, (Richmond) M Rioli. If Essendon are involved in Martin I'd almost guarantee that he finds his way there.



I guess being injected with unknown substances that may or may not affect your children, and we just can't say what it is (Ryder) doesn't affect a solid indigenous program. That's tongue in cheek but I do feel the planets have to align for us to land an in demand player which is becoming a little deflating! Maybe our strategy remains what we know, drafting and developing amazing talent and filling for need with surplus from other teams (Lloyd, Duryea).

[ledge]

I guess being injected with unknown substances that may or may not affect your children, and we just can't say what it is (Ryder) doesn't affect a solid indigenous program. That's tongue in cheek but I do feel the planets have to align for us to land an in demand player which is becoming a little deflating! Maybe our strategy remains what we know, drafting and developing amazing talent and filling for need with surplus from other teams (Lloyd, Duryea).

Moneyball !! It was on fox last night actually got stuck watching it again.

[Grantysghost]

Moneyball !! It was on fox last night actually got stuck watching it again.

Butler from the Tigers kicked 4 in the VFL final yesterday. Lloyd mk II :cool:

[Mofra]

Does anyone think our chances of landing Martin have slipped back a bit? The media speculation is Carlton and Essendon firming as likely destinations. I'm not sure we are out of it though
Yep, I'd say Carlton are leading the pack (especially with Betts going there).
Essendon will free up a little cash with Laverde beind traded out but I doubt they can meet the full $600k demand especially with having a couple of players 'bid up' recently.

[Twodogs]

Think he wants to go to Essendon first Carlton next. Essendon have a fantastic history with Indigenous players, they were the first club to really procure Aboriginal players from South Australia and the Territory and Islands. They invested hard in these States in the 80s now you'll find an overwhelming proportion of Aboriginal people support Essendon (Long) , St Kilda (Winmar) or, the older ones, (Richmond) M Rioli. If Essendon are involved in Martin I'd almost guarantee that he finds his way there.

Our proposed Indigenous program is great, but it's 20 years too late. Better late than never I suppose but it will be a long time before we become a destination club for Indigebous people. Playing the Cairns and NT games helped as larger-scale Indigenous populations had an opportunity to see us live. We were also doing clinics outside Darwin within Indigenous communities, but for one economic reason or another we stopped playing there, so we dropped the bundle of extending our brand across these communities. It's a shame because one thing that connects Indigenous populations from W.A to Tassie to the islands to non-traditional AFL States like Queensland is that every Aboriginal kid knows how to play AFL footy. It's kinda like when I went to India in the late 90s and played street cricket in India, every Indian kid could bat and bowl. A far higher proportion of Aboriginal people live AFL as opposed to what we see outside Aboriginal populations, and that resource is under utilised.

A lot of work is needed with this Indigenous program. Hope the club invests in it properly, it could rake in great reward.

https://www.ejwhittenfoundation.com.au/past-events/tiwi-island/

We had a presence in the Tiwi Islands long before Essendon or St Kilsa or amy other club. Ted Whitten went to the Tiwi Islands for the grand final every year for 20 odd years. Long before any VFL player/personality even knew that played footy north of Alice Springs EJ was heading up there. He started going in the late '60s and now Ted Jr has continued on his work up there. There used to be heaps of indigenous who followed Footscray, I wonder what happened to them all?

[Bulldog4life]

https://www.ejwhittenfoundation.com.au/past-events/tiwi-island/

We had a presence in the Tiwi Islands long before Essendon or St Kilsa or amy other club. Ted Whitten went to the Tiwi Islands for the grand final every year for 20 odd years. Long before any VFL player/personality even knew that played footy north of Alice Springs EJ was heading up there. He started going in the late '60s and now Ted Jr has continued on his work up there. There used to be heaps of indigenous who followed Footscray, I wonder what happened to them all?

Thanks for posting that Td. Been thinking of posting about Ted going to the Tiwis but you beat me to it. He was hugely popular up there. Mr. Football of course. Wasn't aware that junior was going there now.

[1eyedog]

https://www.ejwhittenfoundation.com.au/past-events/tiwi-island/

We had a presence in the Tiwi Islands long before Essendon or St Kilsa or amy other club. Ted Whitten went to the Tiwi Islands for the grand final every year for 20 odd years. Long before any VFL player/personality even knew that played footy north of Alice Springs EJ was heading up there. He started going in the late '60s and now Ted Jr has continued on his work up there. There used to be heaps of indigenous who followed Footscray, I wonder what happened to them all?

Thanks TD I forgot he did this. What Indigenous players did we have playing when Ted was up there?

[Twodogs]

Thanks TD I forgot he did this. What Indigenous players did we have playing when Ted was up there?

Michael McLean was the only kid from the NT that I can remember. Les Bamblett came from Lemnos. We had a lot of support up there when I went up there.

[chef]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SammyHeraldSun/status/1168430021926477824

[bulldogtragic]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SammyHeraldSun/status/1168430021926477824

So 50/50 chance to land Martin if true. I hope we can impress him. A deadly quiet Princess Park or a buzzing Whitten Oval should tell him a fair bit about where he should go. We have the appropriate pick already for GCS, and apparently will offer a little more money. Carlton busy on Papley. Here's hoping we get a early 'yes'.

[Raw Toast]

We don't have the history of developing (and supporting) Indigenous players well recently*, however given our investment in a new Indigenous Program, I'm hoping that Martin (and AMT) can be a combination of our Chance Bateman (who helped transform an awful/racist culture at Hawthorn) and Shaun Burgoyne (who remains my favourite non-Dogs player).

*You could make an argument about Hamling, but while he came on in leaps and bounds for us, he wasn't around that long. And I'm not trying to say that our culture is similar to what Hawthorn had, but nevertheless, it would be fantastic if we could become a destination club for Indigenous players (which they currently are, among other things).

[Happy Days]

We don't have the history of developing (and supporting) Indigenous players well recently*, however given our investment in a new Indigenous Program, I'm hoping that Martin (and AMT) can be a combination of our Chance Bateman (who helped transform an awful/racist culture at Hawthorn) and Shaun Burgoyne (who remains my favourite non-Dogs player).

*You could make an argument about Hamling, but while he came on in leaps and bounds for us, he wasn't around that long. And I'm not trying to say that our culture is similar to what Hawthorn had, but nevertheless, it would be fantastic if we could become a destination club for Indigenous players (which they currently are, among other things).

Somewhat related - I just read your book on the Winmar picture (and more broadly the AFL's historical treatment of Indigenous players) and thought it was absolutely brilliant.

[bulldogtragic]

So I’ve just read the Martin and Carlton trade stuff. So they’re all in on Papley, and apparently on Betts. And not willing to overpay on Martin. If they land Papley & Betts, it seems overkill to tie up more draft currency and salary cap in Martin. It feels like an extra chunk of cash might force Carlton to ‘fold’. It might be a bit more than ideal, but if that seals the deal and we believe in him 100%, I’d be happy enough with $1.7M+ total available cap to use money to force the trade. Let Sydney, Carlton & Dodoro work on a quick and fair three way trade while everyone else gets shit done.

[Doggy]

Stevo on channel 7 said we are the favourites to sign Martin at this stage as we are offering more $$$

[Twodogs]

Stevie on channel 7 said we are the favourites to sign Martin at this stage as we are offering more $$$

Yeah, I saw that too.

[1eyedog]

Stevo on channel 7 said we are the favourites to sign Martin at this stage as we are offering more $$$

Money talks and bullshit walks : Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[ledge]

I hope their is more to his thinking than just the money.

[whythelongface]

I hope their is more to his thinking than just the money.

Not too concerned about that. Some players just care about the best deal and not really that interested in the club they end up at. As long as he performs it shouldn't be an issue. Once he is in then hopefully he becomes invested in the club.

[bulldogtragic]

Not too concerned about that. Some players just care about the best deal and not really that interested in the club they end up at. As long as he performs it shouldn't be an issue. Once he is in then hopefully he becomes invested in the club.

Yep. If you went for two jobs, interviewed at both, liked both, happy at either, but one pays more money... most take the extra money and go about showing why they’re worth it.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I hope we get him.

[GVGjr]

Martin averages around 18 possessions a game, scores less than a goal per game but has a very high tackle ratio of around 5 and averages 4 marks per game. It's a bit of a mixed bag but some impressive attributes

Are these the sort of numbers that will command a 600K per season contract over a 4 or 5 year deal with us?

[strebla]

Martin averages around 18 possessions a game, scores less than a goal per game but has a very high tackle ratio of around 5 and averages 4 marks per game. It's a bit of a mixed bag but some impressive attributes

Are these the sort of numbers that will command a 600K per season contract over a 4 or 5 year deal with us?
I think it will be a different Martin in our side if the powers that be believe he will buy in I believe his numbers will climb. I am still very very keen on him and hope he is just more silk on the outside.

[ledge]

Martin averages around 18 possessions a game, scores less than a goal per game but has a very high tackle ratio of around 5 and averages 4 marks per game. It's a bit of a mixed bag but some impressive attributes

Are these the sort of numbers that will command a 600K per season contract over a 4 or 5 year deal with us?

I think who has played for makes a difference, he would definitely be a better player in a good team.
Use his strengths and combine that with a team orientated club and he could win a few games for us.

[1eyedog]

Martin averages around 18 possessions a game, scores less than a goal per game but has a very high tackle ratio of around 5 and averages 4 marks per game. It's a bit of a mixed bag but some impressive attributes

Are these the sort of numbers that will command a 600K per season contract over a 4 or 5 year deal with us?

If he kicks it well and plays up front he can do a lot of damage with 18 touches. Sounds like he applies good pressure too.

[Raw Toast]

If he kicks it well and plays up front he can do a lot of damage with 18 touches. Sounds like he applies good pressure too.

Agreed.

For me the pressure is a vital building block. Then it becomes a matter of the quality of his disposal and decision-making more generally. While this team might be different to 2016, both sides win when they swarm the opposition with so much pressure that they start missing the simplest of disposals because they're *%$ing themselves. So it sounds like Martin could fit right in.

If we pay that amount and get him, then we're investing in someone who has talent and work-rate, but who's been in a shit system. I like those odds. I'm also pretty happy with the likes of Crozier and Durea (and even Trengove though he can drive me crazy), so happy to back us in.

Plus he'll hopefully be someone that we can build a broader culture around, who can (among many other things), help mentor the other Indigenous players that we'll be recruiting.

[Happy Days]

Plus he'll hopefully be someone that we can build a broader culture around, who can (among many other things), help mentor the other Indigenous players that we'll be recruiting.

Pretty much. The money we're offering him is commensurate to what will undoubtedly be responsibilities thrust upon Martin extending far greater than the playing field, and is a consideration we shouldn't lose sight of.

[AshMac]

Not in love with Martins stats, but also dont buy into the "he'll be better in a good team" narrative, he has hallmarks of being an A grade downhill skier. Having said that - I have extreme trust in our recruiting and list management team and am ok with a classy player as outside polish when we're going well.

[bulldogtragic]

Pretty much. The money we're offering him is commensurate to what will undoubtedly be responsibilities thrust upon Martin extending far greater than the playing field, and is a consideration we shouldn't lose sight of.

I wonder what the emotional toll of that is? I freely admit have no idea in advance. But it's indigenous round, so let's roll out Jack. There's media about our indigenous jumper, so lets roll out Jack. If a crowd member engages in racism, again, roll out Jack. Taking over from JT on the reconciliation council, put in Jack. Photo ops with our NGA kids, roll out Jack.

For our vision for a more diverse club, for more indigenous talent and to become a club of choice, we are going to need a very strong leader comfortable as a player and comfortable to be the pioneer and take on a lot with the help of our off field set up. Carlton & Essendon don't have to factor in a higher wage for this because they're further down the road than us. So the more I think about it we would need to pay him more because the off field burden is less, despite the playing success being higher.

Whenever I've heard him talk, he seems to have strong character and overall good citizen. As Raw Toast points out, he seems to be the sort of person that would be a great mentor for JUH & other indigenous NGAs and draftees. The component above can't be understated...

But he's also a very good footballer whose been stuck in football purgatory. He can win his own footy and loves to tackle. That's a bonus dimension of him. What I think we want is a hard runner, smooth moving, wing/high forward that can have the ball extracted by our bulls around the contest out to and continue to improve our I50's and generate a shot or two a game. With his pace and tackling proficiency he can work further into the forward line, or play a variety of other roles. He has speed and talent.

There's no guarantees in footy. His career has somewhat stalled playing at a club where none of his leaders wanted to be their either. In weak teams that got flogged and a club that is mismanaged for salary cap management to player development. So will he come in instantly and turn it around, or a year. Who knows for certain. But as far as a wager goes, I'd put my money on that we will and it will be quick. With a defined role and the best midfield that's only going to get better serving him the footy at will, we can play him to his strengthes and not to whatever will stop a 50-100 points loss. 97 games, 24 year old, he's coming into his prime footy years with our list who is moving into its prime years. He's not the messiah, but at a reasonable trade price and the $550-$600,000 rumoured figure, he could be a really important part of continuing to inject even more high talent players into a 2020 best 22 that addresses a specific area we can immediately improve.

What was the question? Is he worth it? Yes.

[Topdog]

Not in love with Martins stats, but also dont buy into the "he'll be better in a good team" narrative, he has hallmarks of being an A grade downhill skier. Having said that - I have extreme trust in our recruiting and list management team and am ok with a classy player as outside polish when we're going well.

Sorry just to be clear what hallmarks are these? Downhill skiers don't get over 4 tackles a game. And how exactly does one ski downhill at gold coast??

[mjp]

Jack is a football genius.

We should get him.

[ledge]

Do we know his personality and work rate outside of football ?
Is he an all round good bloke ?
Is he driven ?
Is he a natural leader ?
Apart from the football side of things I know nothing of these things with him and they are what are looked at when we are recruiting players.
If what the media are saying is true I would say he has a lot of these attributes.
Does anyone here have answers about him.

[GVGjr]

Jack is a football genius.

We should get him.

In a straight up deal with GC do you think Martin is worth our first round pick?

[GVGjr]

Not in love with Martins stats, but also dont buy into the "he'll be better in a good team" narrative, he has hallmarks of being an A grade downhill skier. Having said that - I have extreme trust in our recruiting and list management team and am ok with a classy player as outside polish when we're going well.

I'm of the belief that players of the talent of Martin will get better at a stronger club.
My only question of players we recruit is if they are coming for the right reasons and not just because of the money. Speculation that Carlton is his preffered destination but that we can pay more isn't great in my opinion. If he genuinely wants to play for us then we should go hard to make that happen

[Dancin' Douggy]

Jack showed great maturity, self sacrifice, courage and dedication as a young man pursuing his dream of being an AFL player.
He may thrive in the position of being looked up to as a role model to the younger indigenous kids we are planning to add to our list.

Jack also is a definite point of difference to our playing group, he adds a dimension we are currently lacking.

I'd be thrilled to get him down to the kennel.

[The Doctor]

Tom Browne reporting we are leading the race for Martin

[ledge]

Tom Browne reporting we are leading the race for Martin

And that leads to journos coming to conclusions like Dickson is a free agent and their could be a few clubs looking at him.
COULD being the important word, in other words the journo has no idea and is making it up as click bate.

[mjp]

Does anyone here have answers about him.

I can talk about him a bit - not from the past couple of years as I really haven't seen him much since 2015.


Do we know his personality and work rate outside of football ?
Is he an all round good bloke ?
Is he driven ?
Is he a natural leader ?


He is a very hard worker. He is well liked by his team-mates and has an 'old head' on his shoulders. He wouldn't like the losing too much and is a very prideful person. He is THE great, unrealised talent in the AFL today (with Callum Ah Chee not far behind him - but Jack is better than Cal).

We are talking about a genuine, first overall pick in the draft type talent. The other 3x pre-draft selections (two awarded the Giants, two awarded the Suns) were Crouch (Brad version), Jaeger O'Meara and Jesse Hogan. (Yes, 3x West Australians who ALL missed the National Champs in their 18th year). Pretty comfortable in saying Jack was more highly regarded that the other 3. He can seriously play. His idea of fun is salmon fishing off Broome - not 3am in a dodgey Gold Coast night club. He would be a great get and if the club pulls it off we will all sit back and thank the lord above they did.

[bulldogtragic]

And that leads to journos coming to conclusions like Dickson is a free agent and their could be a few clubs looking at him.
COULD being the important word, in other words the journo has no idea and is making it up as click bate.

Yes mainly I agree, but with a little asterisk. Their guess might be we land Martin & Bruce. So that opens up a squeeze on Dickson out of the club and he may want to keep playing but elsewhere. What level is their guess work, I don’t know, but Dickson chatter seems like a domino effect of bringing in two more forward. If we get them and another club offers him 2 years, good for Dicko.

[hujsh]

Agreed.

For me the pressure is a vital building block. Then it becomes a matter of the quality of his disposal and decision-making more generally. While this team might be different to 2016, both sides win when they swarm the opposition with so much pressure that they start missing the simplest of disposals because they're *%$ing themselves. So it sounds like Martin could fit right in.

If we pay that amount and get him, then we're investing in someone who has talent and work-rate, but who's been in a shit system. I like those odds. I'm also pretty happy with the likes of Crozier and Durea (and even Trengove though he can drive me crazy), so happy to back us in.

Plus he'll hopefully be someone that we can build a broader culture around, who can (among many other things), help mentor the other Indigenous players that we'll be recruiting.


I can talk about him a bit - not from the past couple of years as I really haven't seen him much since 2015.



He is a very hard worker. He is well liked by his team-mates and has an 'old head' on his shoulders. He wouldn't like the losing too much and is a very prideful person. He is THE great, unrealised talent in the AFL today (with Callum Ah Chee not far behind him - but Jack is better than Cal).

We are talking about a genuine, first overall pick in the draft type talent. The other 3x pre-draft selections (two awarded the Giants, two awarded the Suns) were Crouch (Brad version), Jaeger O'Meara and Jesse Hogan. (Yes, 3x West Australians who ALL missed the National Champs in their 18th year). Pretty comfortable in saying Jack was more highly regarded that the other 3. He can seriously play. His idea of fun is salmon fishing off Broome - not 3am in a dodgey Gold Coast night club. He would be a great get and if the club pulls it off we will all sit back and thank the lord above they did.

Well I'm sold now.

[Axe Man]

He is THE great, unrealised talent in the AFL today (with Callum Ah Chee not far behind him - but Jack is better than Cal).

Hey MJP, I asked for your thoughts last week on Ah Chee in another thread - you may have missed it. Could he fill a small forward role for us?

[bornadog]

Lets get him now. We need to impress him and as GVGjr says, not just with money, but the overall culture and environment of the Whitten Oval. Nail this one Sam.

[GVGjr]

I can talk about him a bit - not from the past couple of years as I really haven't seen him much since 2015.

He is a very hard worker. He is well liked by his team-mates and has an 'old head' on his shoulders. He wouldn't like the losing too much and is a very prideful person. He is THE great, unrealised talent in the AFL today (with Callum Ah Chee not far behind him - but Jack is better than Cal).

We are talking about a genuine, first overall pick in the draft type talent. The other 3x pre-draft selections (two awarded the Giants, two awarded the Suns) were Crouch (Brad version), Jaeger O'Meara and Jesse Hogan. (Yes, 3x West Australians who ALL missed the National Champs in their 18th year). Pretty comfortable in saying Jack was more highly regarded that the other 3. He can seriously play. His idea of fun is salmon fishing off Broome - not 3am in a dodgey Gold Coast night club. He would be a great get and if the club pulls it off we will all sit back and thank the lord above they did.

I hope I'm speaking for a the vast majority of our WOOF members is saying how privileged we are to have contributors like your good self (and quite a few others) providing us with first hand knowledge of the quality of players we have been discussing

Many thanks MJP, you add so much value to the discussions here.

[Grantysghost]

I can talk about him a bit - not from the past couple of years as I really haven't seen him much since 2015.



He is a very hard worker. He is well liked by his team-mates and has an 'old head' on his shoulders. He wouldn't like the losing too much and is a very prideful person. He is THE great, unrealised talent in the AFL today (with Callum Ah Chee not far behind him - but Jack is better than Cal).

We are talking about a genuine, first overall pick in the draft type talent. The other 3x pre-draft selections (two awarded the Giants, two awarded the Suns) were Crouch (Brad version), Jaeger O'Meara and Jesse Hogan. (Yes, 3x West Australians who ALL missed the National Champs in their 18th year). Pretty comfortable in saying Jack was more highly regarded that the other 3. He can seriously play. His idea of fun is salmon fishing off Broome - not 3am in a dodgey Gold Coast night club. He would be a great get and if the club pulls it off we will all sit back and thank the lord above they did.



Christ, now I'm excited. Let's do a whip around and get some off the books cash to make Jack a Bulldog!
Surely Sheridan homes could accidently build him a house?

[GVGjr]

Lets get him now. We need to impress him and as GVGjr says, not just with money, but the overall culture and environment of the Whitten Oval. Nail this one Sam.

There are 4 things I think we can offer a player like Martin

A great salary...that is a bit of a no brainer
A great culture...have a look at the quality of our leadership group and coaches etc
The opportunity to play finals...we are now back on track and it's a more than competitive playing list
The opportunity to help this club set-up an indigenous programme that will last for many years after he finishes playing. A true chance to progress the indigenous culture within the club.

There is a lot more for Martin to consider than just his pay packet. This is a genuine once in a lifetime opportunity to be a leader in so many area's.

Lets be honest, how does he say no?

[Grantysghost]

Tom Browne reporting we are leading the race for Martin

Reported that he met with Bevo yesterday in an inner city location. I guess that's normal when you're still in the finals.

https://amp.triplem.com.au/story/tom-browne-s-mail-on-the-club-leading-the-race-for-jack-martin-147010?__twitter_impression=true

[Mofra]

Lets be honest, how does he say no?
Sunday games.
Lack of indigenous teammates.

That counts against us

[Dancin' Douggy]

Couldn't have said it any better. I am really really hoping we can land him, and would happily pay 'overs' to trump the Bombers and Blues.
I can talk about him a bit - not from the past couple of years as I really haven't seen him much since 2015.



He is a very hard worker. He is well liked by his team-mates and has an 'old head' on his shoulders. He wouldn't like the losing too much and is a very prideful person. He is THE great, unrealised talent in the AFL today (with Callum Ah Chee not far behind him - but Jack is better than Cal).

We are talking about a genuine, first overall pick in the draft type talent. The other 3x pre-draft selections (two awarded the Giants, two awarded the Suns) were Crouch (Brad version), Jaeger O'Meara and Jesse Hogan. (Yes, 3x West Australians who ALL missed the National Champs in their 18th year). Pretty comfortable in saying Jack was more highly regarded that the other 3. He can seriously play. His idea of fun is salmon fishing off Broome - not 3am in a dodgey Gold Coast night club. He would be a great get and if the club pulls it off we will all sit back and thank the lord above they did.

[GVGjr]

Sunday games.
Lack of indigenous teammates.

That counts against us

If we pitch it in the right way, he can have huge say in how we go about addressing that

[bulldogtragic]

There are 4 things I think we can offer a player like Martin

A great salary...that is a bit of a no brainer
A great culture...have a look at the quality of our leadership group and coaches etc
The opportunity to play finals...we are now back on track and it's a more than competitive playing list
The opportunity to help this club set-up an indigenous programme that will last for many years after he finishes playing. A true chance to progress the indigenous culture within the club.

There is a lot more for Martin to consider than just his pay packet. This is a genuine once in a lifetime opportunity to be a leader in so many area's.

Lets be honest, how does he say no?

And with form he's going to play every week with us. At Carlton (if they get Papley, Betts, Gray etc plus SPS etc) & Essendon (various), there's a bunch of similar types all fighting for limited spots. I'd argue we don't have someone like him. So if he wants the opportunity to play regular senior football, despite our overall talent profile, he will play regular senior football with us. He can rest assured that if he executes his role to the level we know he can he will have a spot in the 22 without fighting with a bunch of other players for the spot. Carlton can offer him a best 22 spot in a range of roles because they're no good, but we can offer him a best 22 spot in an emerging strong side because we don't have someone like him in the role we want. It's hopefully a distinction that makes a difference.

If this does eventuate, I hope the clubs can knock it over early, put it to bed and move onto acquiring KPPs such as Keath, Bruce and ruck depth with Zak Smith for next to nothing but a list spot (with Geelong going after Goldstein).

[bulldogtragic]

Sunday games.
Lack of indigenous teammates.

That counts against us

Only until Jamarra comes along next year. It's a temporary thing. Surely he wants to play with the next and better Buddy Franklin.

I wonder what his relationship is with Bennell from their time together? Maybe a rookie list spot for him if he 'ticks the boxes'.

[Bulldog4life]

Sunday games.
Lack of indigenous teammates.

That counts against us

Judging from history our improved form will mean our Sunday games will be reduced.

[bulldogtragic]

Judging from history our improved form will mean our Sunday games will be reduced.

Yep. We won the flag in 2016, we had a ton of night games the following year. So I expect the exact same thing next year too.

[bulldogtragic]

Tom Browne reporting we are leading the race for Martin

I just listened to the audio of the interview. He also made mention Martin had a sit down yesterday with Bevo at a CBD establishment.

That's a fairly strong statement to Jack by Bevo and the club to let Bevo sell the trade to him when he's coaching in an elimination final of the weekend. It's also our best salesman to player/s about where we are and where can be with him on the journey. Probably a very different pitch (& feel) from walking around Visy Park listening to SOS.

[bulldogtragic]

Carlton have met today with Dan Butler for the small forward position the are auditioning for. That's Butler, Gray, Papley & Betts they're interested in plus Martin. With our offer being higher, and Carlton happy to shop around for people not named Jack Martin, maybe they won't up their offer on Martin. Leaving us some clear room to work with him and his manager.

[Mofra]

Carlton have met today with Dan Butler for the small forward position the are auditioning for. That's Butler, Gray, Papley & Betts they're interested in plus Martin. With our offer being higher, and Carlton happy to shop around for people not named Jack Martin, maybe they won't up their offer on Martin. Leaving us some clear room to work with him and his manager.
I considered Butler until the second half of this season happened. He's been in terrible form of late. Not sure what's going on there.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Carlton have met today with Dan Butler for the small forward position the are auditioning for. That's Butler, Gray, Papley & Betts they're interested in plus Martin. With our offer being higher, and Carlton happy to shop around for people not named Jack Martin, maybe they won't up their offer on Martin. Leaving us some clear room to work with him and his manager.

things seem to be lining up nicely for us atm

[Rocket Science]

I just listened to the audio of the interview. He also made mention Martin had a sit down yesterday with Bevo at a CBD establishment.

That's a fairly strong statement to Jack by Bevo and the club to let Bevo sell the trade to him when he's coaching in an elimination final of the weekend. It's also our best salesman to player/s about where we are and where can be with him on the journey. Probably a very different pitch (& feel) from walking around Visy Park listening to SOS.

I'd like to have Bevo set the cat among the pigeons by having Martin roll out as our runner versus the Hi-Vis Turds this weekend.

Checkmate, Dodo.

[1eyedog]

If it is as MJP says and he does have an old head I'm confident he'll get where Bevo is coming from and respect our approach. Bevo forms real relationships with his players it remains to be seen what kind of coach Teague is. Bevo himself is a big selling point. Glad he's meeting him one on one.

[ledge]

We are a proven successful club Under this management and we are on the up, Carlton still have a question mark on their heads.
I know where I would go.
I’m am not sure how Carlton could bring more to the table than us in anything.

[Axe Man]

We are a proven successful club Under this management and we are on the up, Carlton still have a question mark on their heads.
I know where I would go.
I’m am not sure how Carlton could bring more to the table than us in anything.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hn2N5xbp/image-450w-275371577.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
*Brown paper bags courtesy of Visy

[mjp]

And with form he's going to play every week with us. At Carlton (if they get Papley, Betts, Gray etc plus SPS etc) & Essendon (various), there's a bunch of similar types all fighting for limited spots.

So - BT, your argument is he should come to us as he is more likely to get a game than he would be at Carlton? Even though we are playing finals and they are not?

I'm not sure I follow the logic.

At the same time, players ALWAYS think they are going to get a game. ALWAYS. And clubs never tell them that they are going to be 'backups'. NEVER. The fact that he might have to play some VFL footy wouldn't be on his radar at all...

[Grantysghost]

https://i.postimg.cc/Hn2N5xbp/image-450w-275371577.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
*Brown paper bags courtesy of Visy

Complementary Chris Judd environmental ambassador figurine in every bag.

[chef]

Carlton are a big team, play blockbusters at the G, are young and are finally on the cusp of being a finals contender again. They've got a fair bit of pull still and are ahead of us as a destination club sadly.

[ledge]

Complementary Chris Judd environmental ambassador figurine in every bag.

Speaking of Chris Judd I hope he is the one chatting to Martin because He suffers foot in mouth disease.

[ledge]

Carlton are a big team, play blockbusters at the G, are young and are finally on the cusp of being a finals contender again. They've got a fair bit of pull still and are ahead of us as a destination club sadly.

They have been on the cusp for years they keep telling us, we aren’t on the cusp we are already there, look at our age demographic the players he will play with far out weigh the ones he will Play with at Carlton.
We have way more upside than them IMHO

[chef]

They have been on the cusp for years they keep telling us, we aren’t on the cusp we are already there, look at our age demographic the players he will play with far out weigh the ones he will Play with at Carlton.
We have way more upside than them IMHO

Who cares what they are telling us, just sitting and watching them play this season will show you they are heading the right way finally. They have a good young list coming through.

Of course us Dogs supporters think we are better placed, but they are a historically big club, play big games on the G in front of big crowds. Is it really surprising they have more player pull than us?

[Grantysghost]

Who cares what they are telling us, just sitting and watching them play this season will show you they are heading the right way finally. They have a good young list coming through.

Of course us Dogs supporters think we are better placed, but they are a historically big club, play big games on the G in front of big crowds. Is it really surprising they have more player pull than us?

They were also so bad they sacked their coach.

[bulldogtragic]

So - BT, your argument is he should come to us as he is more likely to get a game than he would be at Carlton? Even though we are playing finals and they are not?

I'm not sure I follow the logic.

At the same time, players ALWAYS think they are going to get a game. ALWAYS. And clubs never tell them that they are going to be 'backups'. NEVER. The fact that he might have to play some VFL footy wouldn't be on his radar at all...

Just a thought that there's more competition for the specific roles elsewhere so maybe there's a continuity of role with us, versus getting shuffled around roles for another season in weaker 22's. I wasn't trying to compare the strengthes of the best 22, but have clearly not articulated it right. Say Keath was looking at Melbourne or us, for example, he might think he's going to be more likely to get a KPD game with us as opposed to fighting with May & Lever (McDonald maybe) at Melbourne. I'm sure Melbourne would try to squeeze him in somehow in various spots, but with us he lines up in a position he knows he can excel in as arguably our best defender (based on this year's stats). In any event, I hope we can get him in.

[Topdog]

Who cares what they are telling us, just sitting and watching them play this season will show you they are heading the right way finally. They have a good young list coming through.

Of course us Dogs supporters think we are better placed, but they are a historically big club, play big games on the G in front of big crowds. Is it really surprising they have more player pull than us?

Not sure they are actually on the cusp though. Once Teague signed they started losing and copped a 10 goal hiding to end the season

[bornadog]

Carlton are a big team, play blockbusters at the G, are young and are finally on the cusp of being a finals contender again. They've got a fair bit of pull still and are ahead of us as a destination club sadly.

Sadly true

[chef]

They were also so bad they sacked their coach.

Not sure they are actually on the cusp though. Once Teague signed they started losing and copped a 10 goal hiding to end the season

They lost once after Teague was signed and that was at Geelong, tough place to go. Before that his record was pretty decent and he has them trending in the right direction.

As much as it pain us Dogs supporters they are seen as a more desirable destination, geez even Melbourne is for some reason. Just our lot in life.

[ledge]

Who cares what they are telling us, just sitting and watching them play this season will show you they are heading the right way finally. They have a good young list coming through.

Of course us Dogs supporters think we are better placed, but they are a historically big club, play big games on the G in front of big crowds. Is it really surprising they have more player pull than us?

It would be more surprising as they haven’t done anything for over 20 years .. things change, they have no growing area to attract new fans and rely on family loyalty.
We have a huge demographic that is growing rapidly we also have no debt and have won a flag recently with which will bring more members as the kids who saw it turn into adult members. The fact we are playing finals again will only increase it and our community involvement is huge.
We will be a big club in the near future if we continue to do what we are doing.

[1eyedog]

And the AFL.com Jack Martin update for today? Jack Martin to Carlton. So says the Purple Ferret with no reasoning behind the claim. Wow, surely an update worth waiting for!

I just think he goes to Carlton says he.
I just think you're a Purple rabbit says I.

^^^^ equally relevant.

[ledge]

And the AFL.com Jack Martin update for today? Jack Martin to Carlton. So says the Purple Ferret with no reasoning behind the claim. Wow, surely an update worth waiting for!

I just think he goes to Carlton says he.
I just think you're a Purple rabbit says I.

^^^^ equally relevant.

Oh yeah he also wrote about us not making finals 3 years in a row after winning the flag... that went well.

[G-Mo77]

I honestly thought he'd go there with the news of Betts likely going to Carlton as well. I figure that would be a pretty big selling point for the Blues even though he's at the end of his run. No big deal if he goes there though, it'd be nice but it's not like we lose anything.

I'd rather go for Keath personally.

[Twodogs]

Carlton are a big team, play blockbusters at the G, are young and are finally on the cusp of being a finals contender again. They've got a fair bit of pull still and are ahead of us as a destination club sadly.

But isn't the very fact they are looking at a cream on top player like Martin suggest that they are still getting ahead of themselves?


Carlton may play in Blockbusters but we can offer finals footy and the chance of a premiership. I'd know what I'd prefer to be playing in. One house and plenty of premiership medals beats owning numerous houses.

[Grantysghost]

They lost once after Teague was signed and that was at Geelong, tough place to go. Before that his record was pretty decent and he has them trending in the right direction.

As much as it pain us Dogs supporters they are seen as a more desirable destination, geez even Melbourne is for some reason. Just our lot in life.

You're right. Unfortunately. We need some big games imo.

Interestingly the Blues finished 16th in 2017 with 6 wins and 16th in 2019 with 7. Their list is a lot more capable now though, however I'm not sold on Teague yet.

[ledge]

You're right. Unfortunately. We need some big games imo.

Interestingly the Blues finished 16th in 2017 with 6 wins and 16th in 2019 with 7. Their list is a lot more capable now though, however I'm not sold on Teague yet.

The problem is the people at the top still believe they are a top club, until they come down to earth and realise you can’t rest on your laurels of 20 odd years ago and need to replace higher up ( which is themselves ) they will be forever chasing their tail.
Melbourne, Essendon much the same, need big culture change.

[Topdog]

They lost once after Teague was signed and that was at Geelong, tough place to go. Before that his record was pretty decent and he has them trending in the right direction.

As much as it pain us Dogs supporters they are seen as a more desirable destination, geez even Melbourne is for some reason. Just our lot in life.

Yeah i got dates mixed up for when he signed. Lost 3 of the last 4 games

[bulldogtragic]

Mitch Cleary:

Jack Martin

“He was in Melbourne this week. I think the Dogs are leading the race over the Blues at the moment, especially if the Blues move happens (bringing in Betts which he expects to happen). It would be tough to see them bringing both in.”

[Remi Moses]

They lost once after Teague was signed and that was at Geelong, tough place to go. Before that his record was pretty decent and he has them trending in the right direction.

As much as it pain us Dogs supporters they are seen as a more desirable destination, geez even Melbourne is for some reason. Just our lot in life.
Jury is out come on . Clubs notoriously have a honeymoon period with a coach replacing a sacked one

[jeemak]

Jury is out come on . Clubs notoriously have a honeymoon period with a coach replacing a sacked one

I've met Teague a few times early on and he's a really switched on guy who in our brief discussions discussed football on a different level to what I've heard. Sure, you'd get the same from any senior or assistant coach now, but remember, he went through the Phil Walsh issue, has won a B&F while playing at two clubs, and has done a lot of assistant coaching miles over time. He's ready.

There's genuinely no more training wheel issues or whatever than what came with Clarkson when he started coaching (even though Clarkson on his first night on Talking Footy decided to wear shorts and I thought he was a dickhead because of it).

[Happy Days]

Hey Jack if you're reading ignore yesterday's game we're still gonna be good I promise

[bulldogtragic]

Peter Ryan of the age reporting Martin wants Carlton.

[bornadog]

Peter Ryan of the age reporting Martin wants Carlton.

Stinks

[bulldogtragic]

Stinks

Yep. But we still have pick 12 and lots of cash if another target emerges.

[Grantysghost]

Peter Ryan of the age reporting Martin wants Carlton.

Not overly surprised.

[Sedat]

Stinks
Why?

[bornadog]

Why?

Just missing out, but not overly concerned.

[Mofra]

They were leading the pack for a while, even though we had the higher offer.

I assume we go a little harder at Bruce and Keath now.

[bulldogtragic]

They were leading the pack for a while, even though we had the higher offer.

I assume we go a little harder at Bruce and Keath now.

Yep. And a more open mind on Isaac Smith.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I'm sick of us being jilted by trade targets.
Every year we keep buttering up and getting sucked in.

[The Doctor]

I'm sick of us being jilted by trade targets.
Every year we keep buttering up and getting sucked in.

The more lines you cast into the sea the more chance you will catch a fish.

[azabob]

The more lines you cast into the sea the more chance you will catch a fish.

Except if your North Melbourne.

[Bulldog4life]

Just missing out, but not overly concerned.

Agree. Prefer Bruce and Keath with Martin in 3rd place.

[Grantysghost]

Agree. Prefer Bruce and Keath with Martin in 3rd place.

Same, watching on the weekend not for one second did I wish we had Martin.

[bornadog]

Agree. Prefer Bruce and Keath with Martin in 3rd place.

Yes, some big guys are what we need.

[Mofra]

Except if your North Melbourne.
They've picked up a few in recent years - Polec, Pittard, Higgins, Anderson, Tyson, etc.

I would have liked Martin, I think he would have been a far better player in our system but Bruce and Keath are pressing needs as well.

[GVGjr]

I think we are still in with a strong chance but if he wants to go elsewhere no problems we will find someone else
I honestly think we should be one of the most attractive clubs for Martin to come and if he can't see it as reported then we cast the net wide as Doc suggests

[Remi Moses]

Meh ! For me

[KT31]

Agree. Prefer Bruce and Keath with Martin in 3rd place.

Same for me.

[comrade]

Trade week is a month away, let's see how it plays out.

[Pickenitup]

Not fussed missing Bruce and Keath major priorities.

[chef]

Gee didnt see that coming. We just aren't a destination club.

[bornadog]

Gee didnt see that coming. We just aren't a destination club.

Who knows what the cheats promised him

[The Doctor]

Dogs have officially bowed out of the race according to Ralph

[GVGjr]

Dogs have officially bowed out of the race according to Ralph

Fair enough if true. I mentioned the other day that we could do a North and have trouble getting the targets

I'm more than OK to keep looking at players wanting to come for the right reasons.

[Rocket Science]

There must be enough blokes to flirt with us before knocking us back in the past decade to pick a team from now, surely?

[chef]

Who knows what the cheats promised him

Bigger club, bigger games on the G, other indigenous teammates, etc

We are just like North sadly.

[bornadog]

Bigger club, bigger games on the G, other indigenous teammates, etc

We are just like North sadly.

If we act like that we will be.

[Grantysghost]

Fair enough if true. I mentioned the other day that we could do a North and have trouble getting the targets

I'm more than OK to keep looking at players wanting to come for the right reasons.

From what I understand he has informed those he won't be going to and that includes us.

[Twodogs]

Bigger club, bigger games on the G, other indigenous teammates, etc

We are just like North sadly.

Except for the whole 'winning trophies' thing. The last decade we have won 4 and North have won none.

[ledge]

His loss

[chef]

If we act like that we will be.

Not sure what you mean?

We have the same luck chasing big names as they do.

[chef]

Except for the whole 'winning trophies' thing. The last decade we have won 4 and North have won none.

Cmon now we've won one. AFL players dont care about VFL or AFLW.

[bornadog]

Cmon now we've won one. AFL players dont care about VFL or AFLW.

One is better than none

[chef]

One is better than none

No doubt, but it doesnt seem to make a difference for us anyway.

Big crowds, big games, big clubs thats what players coming to melbourne want.

[bulldogtragic]

One is better than none

No big name player has cared that we won it, since we won it. With our age profile after 2016 you'd think some good players chasing the liklihood of premierships would've chosen us. But it's not really made a difference. Even our age profile and turn in form suggests good things happening. Not even that and more money could convince Martin to join us. Whatever the precise issue in us being over looked post 2016 by really good players, onfield success and higher wages aren't making up for it as yet. Can it solely just be 'big club' status and perceived crowd sizes?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

No big name player has cared that we won it, since we won it. With our age profile after 2016 you'd think some good players chasing the liklihood of premierships would've chosen us. But it's not really made a difference. Even our age profile and turn in form suggests good things happening. Not even that and more money could convince Martin to join us. Whatever the precise issue in us being over looked post 2016 by really good players, onfield success and higher wages aren't making up for it as yet. Can it solely just be 'big club' status and perceived crowd sizes?

Another cheap as chips trade period and I think the club needs to genuinely try to answer the question 'Do we smell bad?' and try and fix it.

[bulldogtragic]

Another cheap as chips trade period and I think the club needs to genuinely try to answer the question 'Do we smell bad?' and try and fix it.

Probably not going to help us make a bigger jump up the order next year though. Plus we have 5 picks inside the top 48 and enough salary cap to buy a small country. Cheap as chips is a last resort surely. We need to lock in Bruce & Keath, if an average pick gets Isaac Smith then I'd now look at it and look to using pick 12 on a very good player if we can identify one. Surely pick 12 is a great carrot to a rebuilding club to open up some positive discussions.

More kids this year and only kids next year makes the 'now' for trading for established good players of vital importance. But not to recklessness.

And I'm interested with Martin, does it go down in the 'just doesn't want to come here despite more money' column, or 'indigenous player not liking what he sees here'. Or both.

[hujsh]

I question the judgement of any player that chooses to go to Carlton when other options are available.

Either they aren't the best decision makers or their priorities don't place winning highly enough. I don't blame someone for thinking about connections and opportunities post football but if you've just spent years at the rabble known as Gold Coast I'd think you'd be desperate to go somewhere that has at least played finals or threatened the premiership cup in recent history

[Grantysghost]

No doubt, but it doesnt seem to make a difference for us anyway.

Big crowds, big games, big clubs thats what players coming to melbourne want.

And no Marvel? (unless Bombers)

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Probably not going to help us make a bigger jump up the order next year though. Plus we have 5 picks inside the top 48 and enough salary cap to buy a small country. Cheap as chips is a last resort surely. We need to lock in Bruce & Keath, if an average pick gets Isaac Smith then I'd now look at it and look to using pick 12 on a very good player if we can identify one. Surely pick 12 is a great carrot to a rebuilding club to open up some positive discussions.

More kids this year and only kids next year makes the 'now' for trading for established good players of vital importance. But not to recklessness.

And I'm interested with Martin, does it go down in the 'just doesn't want to come here despite more money' column, or 'indigenous player not liking what he sees here'. Or both.

I agree. I probably wrote that poorly.
We definitely don't want another cheap as chips outcome. It definitely would hinder our chances of improving rapidly.
Just saying if it comes to pass, like it has for the last 3 years, we as a club need to have a very thorough look at why this is the case, see if there are things within our control to alter that, or if not then we really need to find other avenues to maximising our ability to bring in talent from jnr and other levels.

[hujsh]

And no Marvel? (unless Bombers)

Carlton is Marvel too

[Axe Man]

Jack Martin set to join Carlton as Western Bulldogs and Fremantle bow out (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/trade-news-jack-martin-set-to-joincarlton-as-western-bulldogs-and-fremantle-bow-out/news-story/fde1d3c1d211232200493ed31ccabbe5)

While Jack Martin has not officially nominated his club of choice he has told others they won’t be landing him. Carlton lead the race for his signature and there’s one man they can thank for that.

Carlton is in the box seat to land Gold Coast midfielder Jack Martin as the Western Bulldogs and Fremantle officially bowed out of the race.

The Blues are likely to land Martin but, while they are zeroing in on him, he has not yet officially nominated them as his club of choice.

He has told the Bulldogs and Fremantle in recent days despite their strong interest that he will not be traded to them.

It means unless a club like Essendon strengthens its interest or another shock contender emerges, he will likely find himself at Carlton next year.

Martin played with Carlton captain and former WA junior Patrick Cripps as a junior and feels he could easily feel at home at the Blues.

They would have to broker a deal with Gold Coast, and also have interest in a host of players including Tom Papley, Eddie Betts, Darcy Cameron and Sam Jacobs.

It is another sign of Cripps’ powerful stature as Carlton’s co-captain when players like Martin are keen to be in his orbit.

While Martin has been a frustrating player who has not yet maximised his potential despite two top-three best-and-fairest finishes, no one doubts his talent.

The Dogs put in an impressive presentation and had offered him a significant salary to join him.

But he has always been keen to find the right landing spot that ticks several boxes, believing the decision will not be a purely financial one.

The decision is expected to fuel the Dogs’ interest in other targets including Josh Bruce and Alex Keath.

Last year they lost out to Hawthorn on star mid-forward Chad Wingard and had believed Martin was an ideal fit.

Gold Coast has confirmed he has requested a trade and would not have paid him anywhere near the massive offers that could hit $700,000.

Aware of the scope of those deals, it will still ask for a first-round pick back given how strongly he has been chased by rival clubs.

Martin is also keen to partner up with indigenous players Liam Jones and Sam Petrevski-Seton at Carlton, with Betts potential addition another bonus.

He has been pondering his decision in Broome on holidays, on the coast in the same area of the state from Petrevski-Seton’s Halls Creek, which is 700km inland.

[bulldogtragic]

I agree. I probably wrote that poorly.
We definitely don't want another cheap as chips outcome. It definitely would hinder our chances of improving rapidly.
Just saying if it comes to pass, like it has for the last 3 years, we as a club need to have a very thorough look at why this is the case, see if there are things within our control to alter that, or if not then we really need to find other avenues to maximising our ability to bring in talent from jnr and other levels.

The recruiters have been saving our bacon. If they missed on a few top picks post premiership (English, Naughton, Richards, Smith) then we'd not be feeling as good as we are. But if they happen to miss while our pitch to opposition players isn't strong enough, then things might catch up a bit more with us.

Putting a detectives hat on, if Melbourne are giving Tomlinson 4 years of $500,000+ then I don't think they've got enough cap to offer Keath 4 years at $500,000+. Then of the team's he interviewed with last week, it's us or St Kilda. But they've since confirmed Carlisle is staying at $600,000 a year. The rumour mill says they get Brad Hill & Zak Jones for about $1.5M. And they're still after other players. Is their aggression to land Keath going to be matched by ours, I doubt it. So we must be into the finals on him, surely he sees that in mild form he's amongst the first picked defenders in our side..

On St Kilda and Bruce, I think this probably gets done for salary cap (to keep pursuing the other players) but moreso draft picks. This will likely land them a mid second rounder which probably locks away Zak Jones. They have to do something with pick 5 and getting Hill at a better rate than that. I'd think we are a good chance on this too.

These two strengthen our spine. Of the later options, Isaac Smith could add immediate polish and run. Zak Smith is a good back up ruck. But a really classy player in his prime or about to come into it would be nice.

[Murphy'sLore]

If the issue with trading star players in is our perceived lack of 'bigness' then I struggle to see how that can change. The AFL's joke fixturing ensures that the 'big' clubs will continue to be awarded blockbuster games and big crowds, which enables them to attract star players, they become more successful, therefore 'deserve' more blockbusters (eg Good Friday) and the cycle continues.

It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and we are powerless to change it.

[bornadog]

If the issue with trading star players in is our perceived lack of 'bigness' then I struggle to see how that can change. The AFL's joke fixturing ensures that the 'big' clubs will continue to be awarded blockbuster games and big crowds, which enables them to attract star players, they become more successful, therefore 'deserve' more blockbusters (eg Good Friday) and the cycle continues.

It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and we are powerless to change it.

Absolutely right - they won't allow us to join in or do anything to upset the existing so called big clubs.

[Grantysghost]

Carlton is Marvel too

It's a split with G. Five games at MCG, Six at Marvel.

Your point is valid though, especially if Aints land some big names. I only raised it because I've spoken to players and they to a man say it takes longer to recover.

I tend to think it's probably not a decisive reason though, even though I had that thought.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Absolutely right - they won't allow us to join in or do anything to upset the existing so called big clubs.

The more this happens, the more I think AFL has to challenge AFLPA amd advocate for clubs to instigate and choose who to trade a player to.
Players have too much control.

[Grantysghost]

Absolutely right - they won't allow us to join in or do anything to upset the existing so called big clubs.

Are we doing enough behind the scenes to get a blockbuster type game off the ground?
Maybe a game celebrating our great trades across Melbourne, Dogs v Pies (clubs with working class roots) the tradies game. Anything surely!

[bornadog]

Are we doing enough behind the scenes to get a blockbuster type game off the ground?
Maybe a game celebrating our great trades across Melbourne, Dogs v Pies (clubs with working class roots) the tradies game. Anything surely!

The club tries and tries. Even when we thought Good Friday was ours, we are booted out.

AFL is probably the worst run organisation ever. If the board were a public company, the shareholders would have thrown them out by now. Over 600 people in HQ, what a waste of funds that should be going back into grass roots footy.

The constant tampering with the rules, making up things as they go along, AFLX, pretending to back the women's league, rigging the draw,allocating games to teams that don't deserve it, it's just farcical. We just have to keep running our club well, and make sure we plan well so we are viable in the future.

[bulldogtragic]

Essendon plays 'country game'. Keilor is not the *!*!*!*!ing country... We are opening up the Ballarat market for us and the AFEL, yet I hear no calls to give that to us as the only home team to play/host H&A games in country Victoria (outside of Geelong).

It's a bullshit game, but I don't see the AFEL thanking us with any sort of game for what we are found.

[chef]

And no Marvel? (unless Bombers)

Carlton and Essendon still play their big games at the G.

[GVGjr]

Bigger club, bigger games on the G, other indigenous teammates, etc

We are just like North sadly.

Carlton don't have a genuine home base normally splitting the home games between each of Marvel and MCG

[Mitcha]

If the issue with trading star players in is our perceived lack of 'bigness' then I struggle to see how that can change. The AFL's joke fixturing ensures that the 'big' clubs will continue to be awarded blockbuster games and big crowds, which enables them to attract star players, they become more successful, therefore 'deserve' more blockbusters (eg Good Friday) and the cycle continues.

It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and we are powerless to change it.
it doesn't help when we are committed to playing two games a year in cold, wet and windy Ballarat in front of a couple of farmers. I know it is good for the bottom line but I also know that prospective players couldn't think of anything worse.

[bornadog]

it doesn't help when we are committed to playing two games a year in cold, wet and windy Ballarat in front of a couple of farmers. I know it is good for the bottom line but I also know that prospective players couldn't think of anything worse.

More precious little sooks

[jeemak]

So in the case of Martin are we just going to ignore he reportedly wants to play with Cripps because he knows them, and Jones and Petrevski Seaton as they're indigenous lads? Or are we going to continue the self-flagellation?

[ReLoad]

Surely its more to do with the "after football" life landing a job at Visy and all that stuff, the whole "bigger club" and "bigger match days stuff" is bollocks.

[chef]

Carlton don't have a genuine home base normally splitting the home games between each of Marvel and MCG

Yeah, they play their big games at the G.

[GVGjr]

it doesn't help when we are committed to playing two games a year in cold, wet and windy Ballarat in front of a couple of farmers. I know it is good for the bottom line but I also know that prospective players couldn't think of anything worse.

Do you really think players get down to that level of where the games are played etc in their decision making?
You might be right but playing games in Tasmania didn't impact the Hawks with landing O'Meara, Mitchell and Wingard

It also hasn't stopped us re-signing players like Naughton and Richards. And as for Carlton being a big club they are hardly a Real Madrid, PSG or Man United.

I get we might have a bit more of a challenge with some players but the positives to me might be that playing a couple of games at Ballarat might help us sort out the players with the right attitude

To me it's a bit of a factor but not a genuine excuses for players

[GVGjr]

More precious little sooks
Do you recall anyone pulling out from attending a game at Ballarat because of the weather conditions and the timing of the game?

We shouldn't be too critical of the players if that is a genuine factor in their decision

[G-Mo77]

Do you recall anyone pulling out from attending a game at Ballarat because of the weather conditions and the timing of the game?

We shouldn't be too critical of the players if that is a genuine factor in their decision

I haven't been back GVG.

[The Pie Man]

Do you really think players get down to that level of where the games are played etc in their decision making?
You might be right but playing games in Tasmania didn't impact the Hawks with landing O'Meara, Mitchell and Wingard

It also hasn't stopped us re-signing players like Naughton and Richards. And as for Carlton being a big club they are hardly a Real Madrid, PSG or Man United.

I get we might have a bit more of a challenge with some players but the positives to me might be that playing a couple of games at Ballarat might help us sort out the players with the right attitude

To me it's a bit of a factor but not a genuine excuses for players

Yep - you can imagine the bollocks those bigger clubs would chat about how hard the Marvel surface is, how small the crowds are etc to players weighing us up against them.

We need to draft genius

[GVGjr]

I haven't been back GVG.

But your not calling players sooks either

[mjp]

So in the case of Martin are we just going to ignore he reportedly wants to play with Cripps because he knows them, and Jones and Petrevski Seaton as they're indigenous lads?

The lack of indigenous players would 100% be an issue.

The thing with Cripps? I'm not saying that isn't a thing, but apart from playing state schoolboys together as 15 year olds, they wouldn't be super close. Cripps didn't make the 16's or the 18's as a 17yo. Martin played 16's and 18's as a bottom-ager - then was a pre-draft selection...so even though they are the same age by the time Cripps played 18's Martin had already been drafted.

Cripps is from North Hampton. Martin is from Broome.

Cripps is from East Fremantle. Martin is from Claremont.

Look - they would 'know' each other but a story suggesting they are long lost best buds? Yeah - nah.

[bornadog]

But your not calling players sooks either

I doubt any player would balk at playing in Ballarat or any other part of the country for the odd game and use it as an excuse, if they did then they would be sooks.

Supporters, fine we don't have to go to a venue we don't like. I don't go to Geelong for many reasons.

[Twodogs]

Supporters, fine we don't have to go to a venue we don't like. I don't go to Geelong for many reasons.

For much the same reason that you don't (I assume) drink straight from the toilet bowl.

[bornadog]

for much the same reason that you don't (i assume) drink straight from the toilet bowl.

http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/GKo7pUwEBJmfu/giphy.gif

[1eyedog]

For much the same reason that you don't (I assume) drink straight from the toilet bowl.

Because its full of shit just like Geelong you mean?

[Remi Moses]

Martin’s morphed into one of the Krakouer Brothers

[GVGjr]

I get why Martin looked elsewhere but if he is picking Carlton over us because of their superior indigenous program then I think he should have looked a bit deeper.
From my understanding they now have two indigenous players in Liam Jones and Sam Petrevski-Seton

He had an opportunity with us to be a prominent figure in our efforts to set-up an indigenous program.

I guess the only good part of his decision it isn't just a financial one.

Good luck to him but I'm glad he let us know early in the process

[Dry Rot]

FWIW I have heard from a very good source who I will not name that our club is not favourably viewed by indigenous players.

I wonder if we have skeleton in our cupboard that we fans do not know about?

[The Adelaide Connection]

FWIW I have heard from a very good source who I will not name that our club is not favourably viewed by indigenous players.

I wonder if we have skeleton in our cupboard that we fans do not know about?

Sherman's lasting legacy? :(

In all seriousness, if this is the case then we need to look to bring in a big named indigenous player/ex-player to really ramp up our programme. Shaun Burgoyne? Eddie Betts? Throw some huge coin and a Hail Mary play for Brad Hill?

What is Brett Goodes currently doing? Wasn't this his domain?

[Dry Rot]

Sherman's lasting legacy? :(

What did Sherman do?

[Dry Rot]

What did Sherman do?

Hm.. https://www.smh.com.au/sport/brown-slams-sherman-for-afl-racial-abuse-20110630-1gs7k.html

[Dry Rot]

Sherman shows Toby Greene like remorse

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/four-match-ban-for-western-bulldogs-justin-sherman-for-racial-abuse/news-story/3ff2a32d66460aa17085d4a37268b4b5?sv=e187df0e92d37aad87877764 a14db656

[Sedat]

Sherman's lasting legacy? :(

In all seriousness, if this is the case then we need to look to bring in a big named indigenous player/ex-player to really ramp up our programme. Shaun Burgoyne? Eddie Betts? Throw some huge coin and a Hail Mary play for Brad Hill?

What is Brett Goodes currently doing? Wasn't this his domain?
I think we are chasing shadows with regard to this issue. Was it a problem in 2006 when we drafted Brennan Stack, Josh Hill and Malcolm Lynch all in the same draft? Or shortly after, Shane Thorne and Zephi Skinner? Was it an issue when Nathan Djerkurra came to the club? Or Joel Hamling?

If there is a problem with our support programs in assisting indigenous players to better settle in Melbourne then I'm all for addressing it. But if it is purely off the back of Wingard and Martin choosing other clubs over ours in trade week then we are putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5.

[Mofra]

I think we are chasing shadows with regard to this issue. Was it a problem in 2006 when we drafted Brennan Stack, Josh Hill and Malcolm Lynch all in the same draft? Or shortly after, Shane Thorne and Zephi Skinner? Was it an issue when Nathan Djerkurra came to the club? Or Joel Hamling?
We also had Harbrow in the rookie draft that year. None really stuck around.

We've publically shown interest in three indigenous players in the past three years and missed them all, and our President has gone public with wanting to have proper support networks around the club.

We're about to draft at least three indigenous kids in the next two years via our NGA listers so it's not just about attracting mature talent, it's as much about having a strong support network around the kids we're about to bring in.

[Sedat]

We also had Harbrow in the rookie draft that year. None really stuck around.

We've publically shown interest in three indigenous players in the past three years and missed them all, and our President has gone public with wanting to have proper support networks around the club.

We're about to draft at least three indigenous kids in the next two years via our NGA listers so it's not just about attracting mature talent, it's as much about having a strong support network around the kids we're about to bring in.
It could be argued that they did not stick around for other reasons. Money in Harbrow's case, better opportunities for Josh Hill (who was at the club a number of years in any event) and lack of talent/ability with the other players mentioned.

If there is a problem with our support structure we should absolutely be addressing it. Just hope we aren't being tokenistic about it because we currently don't have an indigenous player on the list.

[Doc26]

We also had Harbrow in the rookie draft that year. None really stuck around.

We've publically shown interest in three indigenous players in the past three years and missed them all, and our President has gone public with wanting to have proper support networks around the club.

We're about to draft at least three indigenous kids in the next two years via our NGA listers so it's not just about attracting mature talent, it's as much about having a strong support network around the kids we're about to bring in.

Whilst I do agree with this Mofra, and like our messaging of wanting to develop an indigenous pathway, equally I don't like the current media messaging that we're failing in our efforts to attract indigenous talent. The reality is that we do struggle to attract in demand younger bigger name players against the 'high visibility' Clubs, regardless of the colour of their skin. That we've missed on Impey, Wingard and Martin in recent times is largely due to them being pursued by the likes of Hawthorn, and now Carlton with Martin.

The likes of Mitchell, O'Meara, Frawley, Gunstan, Shiel, Devon Smith, Treloar, Adams, Docherty, as a sample, were all elite young non-indigenous talent that sought the limelight and stardom of the traditional bigger Clubs. Just add Martin and Wingard to this list rather than have it messaged that we are now somehow having an issue with attracting elite indigenous talent.

[hujsh]

I think we are chasing shadows with regard to this issue. Was it a problem in 2006 when we drafted Brennan Stack, Josh Hill and Malcolm Lynch all in the same draft? Or shortly after, Shane Thorne and Zephi Skinner? Was it an issue when Nathan Djerkurra came to the club? Or Joel Hamling?

If there is a problem with our support programs in assisting indigenous players to better settle in Melbourne then I'm all for addressing it. But if it is purely off the back of Wingard and Martin choosing other clubs over ours in trade week then we are putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5.

If those players chose us it might have some relevance to the conversation but since we drafted them I don't really think it does. The fact they aren't on the list anymore only compounds the issue that when it comes to indigenous talent we're at a disadvantage recruitment wise. It doesn't work to have competitive disadvantages in a league like the AFL generally but especially when we're already a small club with no blockbuster games on the G or specific regional attractions.

[Grantysghost]

I think we are chasing shadows with regard to this issue. Was it a problem in 2006 when we drafted Brennan Stack, Josh Hill and Malcolm Lynch all in the same draft? Or shortly after, Shane Thorne and Zephi Skinner? Was it an issue when Nathan Djerkurra came to the club? Or Joel Hamling?

If there is a problem with our support programs in assisting indigenous players to better settle in Melbourne then I'm all for addressing it. But if it is purely off the back of Wingard and Martin choosing other clubs over ours in trade week then we are putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5.

My understanding is this is direct feedback from previously missed targets (Wingard certainly). It's probably not the reason but when part of the decision making soup it's one of them.
The club are working hard to address this, as well as other areas as far as I'm aware to make us more attractive on all fronts. I guess over the past few seasons our targets have been indigenous guys so that's put a spotlight on that particular part of our club.
I read with interest Shaun Burgoyne to Suns is on the cards, gee, he would be the man I would chase.

[anfo27]

We also missed out on Tippa who chose to stay for less coin & a crap list.

[Remi Moses]

Well maybe Tippa feels a loyality to his mates and a club that gave him a chance ?
There’s some real jumping at shadows on this topic

[KT31]

So in the case of Martin are we just going to ignore he reportedly wants to play with Cripps because he knows them, and Jones and Petrevski Seaton as they're indigenous lads? Or are we going to continue the self-flagellation?

Agree, these forums seem to be getting to be a bit "woe is me".
Our Club has come along leaps and bounds in the past decade and is at the forefront of most initiatives, love us or loath us - we are no longer everyone's second or pity team.

[ratsmac]

My understanding is this is direct feedback from previously missed targets (Wingard certainly). It's probably not the reason but when part of the decision making soup it's one of them.
The club are working hard to address this, as well as other areas as far as I'm aware to make us more attractive on all fronts. I guess over the past few seasons our targets have been indigenous guys so that's put a spotlight on that particular part of our club.
I read with interest Shaun Burgoyne to Suns is on the cards, gee, he would be the man I would chase.
He just signed a 1 year deal with the Dawks

[bulldogtragic]

Apparently has specifically called for Carlton. GCS demanding 1st rounder. Carlton not playing along with that. Best of luck with all that.

Edit: I miss read it. Why they need to use click bait type language for no apparent reason...

So Martin wants to play for Carlton (unknown if he's officially called it), and GCS will want a first rounder if he does (but they haven't said it). Carlton will not like that idea if GCS say that (which they haven't). So all hypothetical sounds it seems.

[Scraggers]

Apparently has specifically called for Carlton. GCS demanding 1st rounder. Carlton not playing along with that. Best of luck with all that.

Edit: I miss read it. Why they need to use click bait type language for no apparent reason...

So Martin wants to play for Carlton (unknown if he's officially called it), and GCS will want a first rounder if he does (but they haven't said it). Carlton will not like that idea if GCS say that (which they haven't). So all hypothetical sounds it seems.

I just heard on the radio that GCS have spoken with us as well as we are still showing interest in Martin. They added that Martin hasn’t necessarily told them it is exclusively Carlton.

I’m not willing to part with a first round pick for him though.

[Rocket Science]

You can't help but think the Suns are using us to, shall we say sharpen Carlton's focus in much the same way players / their agents use us to fuel competition for their services.

[bulldogtragic]

For shits and giggles... :

Pick 13 was traded for their Pick 22 & 23 (Ah Chee trade) after FA compo. Plus a draft points trade next year where they get another first rounder. That's a pick 13 with Pick 15 and our 2020 1st rounder, their 1st next year and Pick 11 compo pick that could get them Brad Couch, Matt Crouch, Greenwood etc, etc.

Pick 22 for Martin (End of first round compo pick). GCS get the first rounder they demand.

GCS have 1, 2, 13, 15 & 22 - PLUS - 2020 1st, Pick 11, Dogs 1st

Dogs get 23 & Martin (from Pick 13) this year, and a draft points trade next year that delivers us more 400+ more draft points, but them another 1st rounder
GCS turn Martin & Ah Chee into Pick 13 & Dogs 2020 1st rounder (less 2nd, 3rd & 4th next year to us)


But he's probably going to Carlton or Essendon. So anyhoo.

[bulldogtragic]

You can't help but think the Suns are using us to, shall we say sharpen Carlton's focus in much the same way players / their agents use us to fuel competition for their services.

Exactly what they're doing. He's told us no already. Do we ring back up and say: 'I know you don't wanna be with me, and I get that, but are you sure you really don't wanna be with me? Your dad says maybe it's cool.'

Nah. Keep moving in a positive direction with p,ayers who want to play with us. And who want to play those things, what are they called? Finals...

[Rocket Science]

Exactly what they're doing. He's told us no already. Do we ring back up and say: 'I know you don't wanna be with me, and I get that, but are you sure you really don't wanna be with me? Your dad says maybe it's cool.'

Nah. Keep moving in a positive direction with p,ayers who want to play with us. And who want to play those things, what are they called? Finals...

Precisely, get fair dinkum or get politely stuffed.

I have increasing faith Sam Power's getting better at staring flirty teams and flirty players down.

[bornadog]

Exactly what they're doing. He's told us no already. Do we ring back up and say: 'I know you don't wanna be with me, and I get that, but are you sure you really don't wanna be with me? Your dad says maybe it's cool.'

Nah. Keep moving in a positive direction with p,ayers who want to play with us. And who want to play those things, what are they called? Finals...

List manager at GC said "I know the Dogs showed some interest, but we haven't had discussions there"

[bulldogtragic]

GCS saying the various offers for Martin are still not acceptable.

Should we re-table the contract offer and some sort of deal? We wanted him badly 3 weeks ago.

[bornadog]

Stevo:

Carlton has offered a future second round for Jack Martin. No cigar, say Suns. Will get done, but again hinges on Papley and 9

[GVGjr]

There are 4 things I think we can offer a player like Martin

A great salary...that is a bit of a no brainer
A great culture...have a look at the quality of our leadership group and coaches etc
The opportunity to play finals...we are now back on track and it's a more than competitive playing list
The opportunity to help this club set-up an indigenous programme that will last for many years after he finishes playing. A true chance to progress the indigenous culture within the club.

There is a lot more for Martin to consider than just his pay packet. This is a genuine once in a lifetime opportunity to be a leader in so many area's.

Lets be honest, how does he say no?

How's that decision of picking Carlton over us looking now Jack?

Carlton were apparently offered pick 15 and Martin for pick 9 and didn't make it happen

Sammy would have got the deal done

[bulldogtragic]

How's that decision of picking Carlton over us looking now Jack?

Carlton were apparently offered pick 15 and Martin for pick 9 and didn't make it happen

Sammy would have got the deal done

Yep, bad call. Should've picked us and given us 20 & you for 13.

If GCS stick to drafting him in the psd. Then he has to go National Draft. I wonder who takes him and where?

[Topdog]

Thats pretty shocking by Carlton.

Can they get him via PSD?

Terry Wallace just said of Carlton "They promised the World and delivered an Atlas" hahahaha

[GVGjr]

Yep, bad call. Should've picked us and given us 20 & you for 13.

If GCS stick to drafting him in the psd. Then he has to go National Draft. I wonder who takes him and where?

Perhaps pick 13 comes into play :)

[bulldogtragic]

Perhaps pick 13 comes into play :)

Factoring in Green, Henry and maybe Meade. Would Martin be ranked 16th in the draft?

[strebla]

I have no doubt we would have given over 13 so think at 16 or 17 it's a no brainer.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I have no doubt we would have given over 13 so think at 16 or 17 it's a no brainer.

Totally agree

[bulldogtragic]

I'm not sure if this loophole exists, but it looks like it does. So none of these things are related.

Martin cracks the shits and tells Carlton to *!*!*!*! off.
GCS delist Jack Martin. They don't want him around.
Jack Martin as a delisted free agent accepts a contract at the dogs. 5 X $700,000.
Only after that..
Unrelated the dogs do a draft points trade with GCS - Picks 13 & 53 for Picks 15, 78 & future 4th tied to Brisbane)
GCS were happy to hand over pick 15 if they got a 2nd/3rd. Instead of pick 9, they have a slightly lower pick 13 & a 3rd. Good plan Z.

Hmm.


Edit: 2 Pick 1st round downgrade, 25 late pick downgrade. > Martin & 4th rounder > DVI= Pick 50. We needed to do this minor bump down the order this year to get those future points. What? We signed Jack Martin you say...

[ratsmac]

I'm not sure if this loophole exists, but it looks like it does. So none of these things are related.

Martin cracks the shits and tells Carlton to *!*!*!*! off.
GCS delist Jack Martin. They don't want him around.
Jack Martin as a delisted free agent accepts a contract at the dogs. 5 X $700,000.
Only after that..
Unrelated the dogs do a draft points trade with GCS - Picks 13 & 53 for Picks 15, 78 & future 4th tied to Brisbane)
GCS were happy to hand over pick 15 if they got a 2nd/3rd. Instead of pick 9, they have a slightly lower pick 13 & a 3rd. Good plan Z.

Hmm.


Edit: 2 Pick 1st round downgrade, 25 late pick downgrade. > Martin & 4th rounder > DVI= Pick 50. We needed to do this minor bump down the order this year to get those future points. What? We signed Jack Martin you say...

If we could convince him to join the doggies would this be an option. If he nominates for the draft can we just use pick 13 to get him seeing that we might have been prepared to use it to get him in the first place? Or does he go into the pre season draft only and not the national draft? If he is in the nation draft I doubt Melbourne would use pick 3 nor Carlton use pick 9 on him. If it's only the pre season draft he'd be gone before our pick. Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

[ratsmac]

If we could convince him to join the doggies would this be an option. If he nominates for the draft can we just use pick 13 to get him seeing that we might have been prepared to use it to get him in the first place? Or does he go into the pre season draft only and not the national draft? If he is in the nation draft I doubt Melbourne would use pick 3 nor Carlton use pick 9 on him. If it's only the pre season draft he'd be gone before our pick. Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

I just saw the answer to this in the proactive poaching thread.

[GVGjr]

Good to see the Suns having another look at drafting Jack Martin

Carlton’s ability to pull of a pre-season trade heist for Jack Martin will hinge on talks between the silky half-forward and Suns coach Stuart Dew in coming days.

Dew is expected to ask Martin whether there are circumstances in which he would play for the Suns again next year after the aborted trade between the Blues and Gold Coast.

But if he is emphatic about his determination not to play for the Suns there is every chance Gold Coast will not re-draft him in the pre-season draft.

Melbourne seems unlikely to draft a player who is adamant he will not play at the Demons, which means Carlton could swoop at pick 3.

The Suns remain adamant their hard-ball stance — not accepting a future second and third-round pick from Carlton for Martin — will pay off in the long run.

They want to make clear to clubs they will not accept their scraps or low-ball offers for players of Martin’s calibre and simply fold late in the trade period.

But rivals have wondered why they didn’t accept that deal and use those picks to trade into a higher selection or upgrade existing first-round picks using the 2020 selections.

In next year’s draft period there are so many father-son and academy players available early that clubs will be sure to want to trade in and out of early rounds to suit their purposes.

Martin could put a hefty price on his head to scare off rivals, but it has emerged if he does that it would need to be for a deal of at least two years.

That would mean Melbourne would at least consider his price, aware if they did pick him in the pre-season draft they would have him at the Demons for two full seasons.

Meanwhile, Gold Coast will ramp up talks with star first-year tall Jack Lukosius in coming months after he returned from an overseas trip.

The Suns pulled off a massive coup by securing Ben King on a two-year contract extension during the trade period, securing him through to 2022.

They offered him a significant deal worth more than $500,000 in the third and fourth seasons, allowing the club four years to show him why the Victorian goalkicker should be a Sun for life.

Adelaide will push hard for Lukosius in next year’s trade period if he remains unsigned, but he is open to considering an extension similar to King’s deal.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Jack Martin has named his terms. He has slapped a demand of $1 million next year and a five year deal. Curiously, the overall deal averages out to $600k a season. It's obviously designed to stop GC taking him for a year.

IMO he shouldn't be allowed to dictate a sliding scale over 5 seasons (especially front ended) just an amount he wants to get paid on average each season. An absolute joke.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/martin-long-term-deal-to-get-to-blues-20191111-p539f8.html
Martin names terms for long-term deal to get him to Blues
Jack Martin has nominated terms for a long-term contract of more than $3 million in the hope it will knock other suitors out of the race and land him at Carlton next year.

The out-of-contract Gold Coast player has demanded a five-year deal – on more than $1 million next year – from any club that is to select him in the draft. A source indicated the total terms are in excess of $3 million for the five years.

Martin lodged the contract terms on Monday morning with the AFL – the last day he had to take himself off the Gold Coast list and put himself up for the draft, nominating contract requirements, if he had any.

It was open to Martin to nominate for the national draft but he has only put himself in for the pre-season draft.
Advertisement

Martin sought a trade to Carlton, but a deal was unable to be secured during the trade period. The Blues have pick three in the pre-season draft, so Martin has to get past the Gold Coast Suns and Melbourne in order to land at Princes Park.

The Suns have threatened to re-draft Martin, but the terms he has placed on himself in the draft now might make that unlikely, though not inconceivable at an average of slightly more than $600,000 per year.

The Demons are understood to have been unable to meet with Martin and it would be unlikely they would secure a player on such terms without having met with him beforehand. They have also previously indicated they would not be interested in recruiting a player that did not want to be at the club.

[bulldogtragic]

Do your dodgy thing AFEL, you know you want to help your GCS baby. Bring in immediate PSD and rookie draft pick trading tomorrow. We could cover that wage, we offered $100,000 a year more, so that's a bargain for us.

Pick 13 & PSD Pick 12 - for - Pick 20 and PSD Pick 1.

Everyone wins except Carlton.

It won't happen at all. But imagine for a second it did...

[Scraggers]

Based on this article, we really do have an astute recruiting team :cool:

[bornadog]

Not worth it

[AshMac]

It’s a real shame we have a league where a player who has come nowhere near realising his potential - I would say fantastically underperformed - can dictate his own terms for a contract and club.

Having said that, it’s within the rules and I do think if we were landing here loads would be licking their lips! Quite the paradox

[bornadog]

It’s a real shame we have a league where a player who has come nowhere near realising his potential - I would say fantastically underperformed - can dictate his own terms for a contract and club.

Having said that, it’s within the rules and I do think if we were landing here loads would be licking their lips! Quite the paradox

Good on him for trying.

[AshMac]

Good on him for trying.

No hint of criticism toward the player. This is his career and he has a limited time to do as well for himself as he can. That’s life.

I’m just amazed a player who has delivered so little can trade so highly on potential. When do the credits on potential run out? 5 years clearly not enough

[Twodogs]

No hint of criticism toward the player. This is his career and he has a limited time to do as well for himself as he can. That’s life.

I’m just amazed a player who has delivered so little can trade so highly on potential. When do the credits on potential run out? 5 years clearly not enough

I was going to say that Jack was a tease and if he had played 100 games then that would have been enough for clubs to draw a line underneath and say "Nup, if he ain't playing his best footy ATM then he never will" and that being a tease was better than having actual exposed form."

THen I looked up how many games he had played and it's 97. I reckon the train has left the station with Jack. Let him cruise through another 100 games at Carlton without really making too much of an effort and we can take pick 13 and let our recruiters work their magic. I am confident that they come away with a player we will fall in love with straight away.

It's been a mighty long time since they let us down, would any of us swap Bailey Smith for Chad Wingard now? Because that was the deal we knocked back, Hawthorn wanted our first pick for Wingard, we offered this years first pick instead and they said "Thanks, but no thanks".

Could you imagine watching Bailey Smith absolutely dominating at Hawthorn while we watch Chad Wingard go through the motions each week?

[Testekill]

He's more than welcome to put that price tag on his head but he's played nearly 100 games and hasn't really looked anything worth the hype. He's going to be 25 start of next year and he's still yet to deliver on his pre-draft hype, he's lucky to even be in the league still if it wasn't for the fact that he played for the Suns.

[Axe Man]

Martin's millions: early terms boost Blues bid (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/martin-s-millions-early-terms-boost-blues-bid-20191114-p53aqr.html?fbclid=IwAR3nheaXkDq9Qk88ikZv4shrO1dvM6vi5XaBAmq LQdhOhcZSdu_GyCvciIg)

Jack Martin will be paid about $2 million over the first two years of his massively front-loaded five-year deal as a result of a deal struck between Martin and the exiting Gold Coast player's preferred destination club, Carlton.

Martin's terms – nominated in a bid to assure him of safe passage to Carlton in the pre-season draft – guarantee him more than a $1 million next year, and then close to that amount in year two of a five-year deal that pays him an aggregate of about $3.1 million, with incentives that could stretch that to about $3.5 million if he performs well.

The front-loading of the contract – designed to deter both his current team, Gold Coast, and Melbourne from picking him up – means that Martin will be close to Carlton's highest paid player, potentially ahead of Patrick Cripps, in those two years, although he will average a more moderate guaranteed salary of about $625,000 per season over the entire length of the contract.

The Age revealed on Monday that Martin's terms included a 2020 contract on more than $1 million to discourage the Suns and Demons from picking him, but this huge second year is a further disincentive for those clubs.

[The Doctor]

Is this strategy going to endear Martin to his new team mates?

This has been very poorly handled by Carlton.

[Twodogs]

Is this strategy going to endear Martin to his new team mates?

This has been very poorly handled by Carlton.

I wouldn't want to play with him under those terms. I'd happily sit the year out in the medical room and transfer out ASAP.

[lemmon]

Is there a reason Gold Coast couldn't afford that wage anyway? Who are they paying next year?

[divvydan]

Is there a reason Gold Coast couldn't afford that wage anyway? Who are they paying next year?

They can probably afford it if they really had to but also consider that even if they brought him back in, he would probably still be pushing for a move out, especially once those first two high earning years were done. Now at that point you'd have him under contract but he could make it a pretty horrible place to be around if he wanted to whilst trying to force your hand to move him on.

[mjp]

Is this strategy going to endear Martin to his new team mates?

This has been very poorly handled by Carlton.

The players will be happy. They love it when big contracts get handed out...

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

He's more than welcome to put that price tag on his head but he's played nearly 100 games and hasn't really looked anything worth the hype. He's going to be 25 start of next year and he's still yet to deliver on his pre-draft hype, he's lucky to even be in the league still if it wasn't for the fact that he played for the Suns.

Martin has been at best a good average player at the GCS and hardly justifies the sort of money being offered by Carlton. You wonder what impact it will have on the young talent at Carlton. Very happy that we didn’t go overboard when it appeared we were in the running.

[Grantysghost]

Martin has been at best a good average player at the GCS and hardly justifies the sort of money being offered by Carlton. You wonder what impact it will have on the young talent at Carlton. Very happy that we didn’t go overboard when it appeared we were in the running.

Totally agree. Sam and the team including Chris Grant are very level headed academic thinkers. Appearing desperate by paying overs is never attractive. We killed trade week for need, the Aints may have got the attention but long term we will see our business was a class above.

[bulldogtragic]

To be fair, we did offer Martin more money and more years than Carlton. He just didn't want to accept our offer.

[Mofra]

Is there a reason Gold Coast couldn't afford that wage anyway? Who are they paying next year?
There were rumours a year or two ago they were under cap pressure as they had to pay overs to get players to stay.
GWS have been pretty open about trading players out as cap dumps - even kids who hadn't debuted (e.g. Ahern to North who was reportedly on $300-$400k!)

[Bulldog Revolution]

To be fair, we did offer Martin more money and more years than Carlton. He just didn't want to accept our offer.

Im not entirely convinced that was the case - it was what the media reported initially

[Testekill]

Im not entirely convinced that was the case - it was what the media reported initially

I'm sure that our offer may have resulted in more money but I'd probably bet it was tied into performance clauses and stuff like that. So it's a lower base wage but higher potential earnings and Martin may have been happier just going the higher base wage.