What are we all annoyed with? The Giants, or...

[mjp]

Been a long and eventful year. And the year went only half as long as the last quarter of the game last weekend. And I should have left earlier before the stupid uber surge pricing tripled the price of my dash to the airport...something about staying to the end, supporting the team, having travelled a long way blah blah blah stopped me.

The entire section I was in seemed unhappy all day with:

1/. The umpires
2/. The Giants

What EXACTLY did they do wrong?

The Giants were first in ALL DAY - and they got kicks because of that. They planned in front, they tackled HARD when they weren't...and sure, they layed on top of us after a tackle, bumped us/smashed into us off the ball...but that's all footy isn't it.

I know, I know. The Greene 'incident'. The Himmelberg 'incident'. The Greene one in particular didn't look great in the moment and looks even worse in the replay...but to be fair I doubt the umpires saw any of that on the day. It was crap but that's a tribunal issue - on the day/in the moment, Bont played on and was equally ineffective BEFORE and AFTER 'that' happened. Basically, whatever it was that Greene did, he didn't stop Bont (or anyone else for that matter) winning the footy and 'fighting back'. If you want to make excuses for Lipinski and Smith, fine. But to say we need Liba in order to 'fight the fight'...well, that's crap. Bont and Dunks are both high draft picks and premiership players - they have been playing footy since they were 5 and 100% know that if you get pushed, you had better well push back or pretty soon you will be laying flat on your back!

As the week goes on, I have pretty much decided that not being involved in finals past week#1 is actually pretty crap. And it is triple-crap since the Giants were just harder at it and far more willing to fight for their season than we were. And as fans, I think we have gotten carried away with the Giants/Greene 'hate' to the point where we have overlooked the fact that - with the exception of the Greene/Bont 'stuff', the Giants players/team did what we wish our players/team had...they were ready and they had a plan. We weren't ready, we had no plan and no response.

I know, I know. 2019 version won just 12 games, 2016 version won only 12. We were 'never' going to win it and 'what a great response to a poor start to the year after the bye'....But even back in 2015 we went out fighting - Walker was just too good for us in the last q that night at the MCG and that's that - we were in the game until the (very) bitter end. This year? Didn't fire a shot - and to be -40 in contested ball in an elimination game is an absolute embarrassment.

[bornadog]

I don't think anyone can say we weren't outplayed. They smashed our midfield and we couldn't get our running game going. They beat us at our own game where we are kings in getting the ball into the Fwd50.

What we are annoyed about is that grub Greene is seen lying on top of the Bont and is mauling him like an animal, gouging (yeah no vision of it, but circumstantial evidence, absolutely clear - comes off after that incident and Doctor attending him), pulling his hair slamming his head into the ground, and on top of that Himmledick comes in and punches the Bont while grub is getting stuck in, and he is not cited. Result, a fine. That is what we are annoyed about, GWS getting away with it. Not just this time, many many times in the past.

Just sick and tired of the AFL and it's inconsistencies and treatment of certain clubs.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE ANNOYED ABOUT


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJAk3pSCcZk&feature=youtu.be

[Daughter of the West]

For me, being disappointed about being beaten (and the way in which we were soundly beaten) isn't mutually exclusive to being angry about how the umpiring went during the game and the AFEL has handled matters at the tribunal after the fact.

Comparatively, we were slow, we were weak, we didn't have a skerrick of the intent that GWS have. As to what you chalk it all up to (motivation, basking in our own glory for the end of the season, inexperienced personnel, strategy, coaching, the list goes on) - I don't have the footy nous to pick that apart. But we looked like a deer caught in the headlights most of the game and it was really, really sad to see.

But we could just have easily been beaten in a hard, physical contest without all the other sauce the GWS added. I don't think for a second that their rubbish was a defining factor (they would have beaten us regardless), but the fact that the umpires didn't step in and squash it just after it began is crap. And the fact that we more or less took it was crap. And the fact that Tiprat Greene has 17 priors and all he got with a fine is extraordinarily crap.

[Sedat]

Well said MJP. We copped a valuable football lesson in all key facets of the game - intent in at the coalface, gut running on the outside, ball movement from D50 to F50, stoppage structure.

It wasn't just CP's that we were mauled in (our worst result ever under Bevo by the way). It was out on the spread which goes to a lack of effort to gut-run both ways. It was in clearances., normally a strangth of ours. It was in I50's the worst differential in finals for years - no wonder our forwards were ineffectual with such a lack of quality supply.

I see the game as a valuable lesson in never taking our eye off the prize again. Finals are difficult to make and even more difficult to win. We need to be ready for everything the opposition dish up and we weren't anywhere near that mark on Saturday. Players and coaches can and should learn plenty from the debacle - if it means we get better and continue improving in 2020 and beyond, it will ultimately be a positive.

[Grantysghost]

Great post I agree in the most part. I did wonder myself when emotion took over am I more peeved about the tactics employed by the Giants (push the line, sometimes cross it but it's a knock out final so good idea) or our lack of response. As the games drawn further away it's starting to feel like the latter. (qualified with Greene/Bont stuff being abhorrent obviously).
PS you have to stay till the end :cool:

[mjp]

...how the umpiring went during the game and the AFEL has handled matters at the tribunal after the fact...
...but the fact that the umpires didn't step in and squash it just after it began is crap. And the fact that we more or less took it was crap. And the fact that Tiprat Greene has 17 priors and all he got with a fine is extraordinarily crap.

I was there.
I thought the umpiring was fine.
I watched the replay.
I thought the umpiring was fine.

There is no rule that says you have to quickly 'get up off your opponent' after you tackle them. It is generally considered good sportsmanship, but it isn't a rule. The umpires will say 'let him up' and 'get off him' and what not, but what defines what is allowed and what isn't is pretty grey.

Nothing that happens at the tribunal will ever surprise me (and I am always surprised when people are surprised) but I will give you that one - be upset about the Greene incident and the Himmelberg incident. But given we were nearly -100 for possession yet +6 for free kicks...the umpires gave us a pretty fair go of things.

I guess I am just wondering why all of the commentary seems to be about stuff other than 'US' - we 100% controlled the outcomes on the weekend and started the game as if we didn't have a care in the world and were unable to respond when it was very quickly obvious that GWS had brought a very different attitude to the game than the one they rolled up with a few weeks prior.

[Twodogs]

In the wash up I don't especially care how many games Green did or didn't get. It's not like it's going to be of any advantage to us unless the AFL fixture us to play them in the first few rounds next year.

And if we did then the boys should be looking forward to making it right with or without the tip rat.

[Daughter of the West]

I was there.
I thought the umpiring was fine.
I watched the replay.
I thought the umpiring was fine.

There is no rule that says you have to quickly 'get up off your opponent' after you tackle them. It is generally considered good sportsmanship, but it isn't a rule. The umpires will say 'let him up' and 'get off him' and what not, but what defines what is allowed and what isn't is pretty grey.

Nothing that happens at the tribunal will ever surprise me (and I am always surprised when people are surprised) but I will give you that one - be upset about the Greene incident and the Himmelberg incident. But given we were nearly -100 for possession yet +6 for free kicks...the umpires gave us a pretty fair go of things.

I guess I am just wondering why all of the commentary seems to be about stuff other than 'US' - we 100% controlled the outcomes on the weekend and started the game as if we didn't have a care in the world and were unable to respond when it was very quickly obvious that GWS had brought a very different attitude to the game than the one they rolled up with a few weeks prior.

As I said, I don't have to the footy nous to pull apart what happened. I would love to offer a depth of analysis as to what went wrong at the weekend, but that's beyond my capabilities. And why I defer like people to your good self. And, as I said, the if GWS hadn't added the sauce, they would have still smacked us back to Melbourne anyway.

But I do know, that when I'm asking my 3.5 year old in a few years time what sports he wants to play, I'm going to fight tooth and nail to not let him anywhere near the sport that openly condones eye gouging.

[Mantis]

It seemed our plan was to play as we had over the last few weeks when were able to win the ball around the clearance situation with our 'big 3' steering the ship, transfer it to the outside with quick hands and then hit up any number of forward options we had... but that failed, and it failed quickly and then with the team we had selected (either by choice or in who we had available) we had few other options and we got comprehensively out-pointed.

Bevo seemed totally miffed about what had happened post-game, but it was clear the Giants were going to be a completely different team with the addition of the likes of Cameron, Finlayson, Mumford & Hopper and a run in the legs of Kelly & de Boer than when we played them in rd22.. Leon Cameron potentially fighting for his coaching career, Gerard Whateley mentioning that GWS will 'bring steel chairs to the contest'... we all knew GWS were going to play for keeps... we just missed the memo.

Hopefully its the reality check we need as we have lots of players who need to improve (fast) and some gaps to fill... young & talented gets you knowhere unless you do the work, so hopefully the fire burns in the stomach after an embarrassing performance and the boys can't wait for the pre-season to begin so they can get to work.

And yep GWS over-stepped the mark with a handful of incidents, but you can either get on with the job or return fire... and we didn't do much at all.

[bornadog]

I guess I am just wondering why all of the commentary seems to be about stuff other than 'US'

Because we all know we were comprehensively beaten and there is no point dissecting that performance as there is no game next week. The only thing left to talk about is the tribunal in regards to this game.

I think most of the focus is now on possible trades and who will be traded out, followed by drafting players.

PS: On umpiring, they should have taken more control and just awarded a few 50 metre penalties and then all the illegal stuff would have been killed off. Overall, no effect on the game.

[The bulldog tragician]

I don’t think that your original post is completely fair mjp. I believe most of us can have separate views and emotions about two concepts concerning the game:

1. We were outplayed, outmuscled, didn’t seem to have a lot of tactical options up our sleeves. Our youth and inexperience showed. Our more senior players didn’t take the game by the scruff of the neck. In all measures we were comprehensively beaten by a team that have been top four or thereabouts and with a completely different age and development profile than ours. On that score I feel disappointed and frustrated, but hopeful that there is much improvement to work towards given how very young we are.

2. GWS tactics went well beyond just aggressive, hard but fair play. It’s not brave but cowardly to pin a bloke to the ground and claw his face. It’s not brave to throw a gut punch outside of the field of play. The umpires ignored these tactics, the AFL effectively condoned them. I feel vastly different about this aspect of the game. It was disgraceful. It wasn’t why we lost. But it tarnishes their victory and the game as a whole.

[GVGjr]

The only thing that I am upset with is that we all knew they would come out hard but didn't appear to be either aware that they would or prepared to push back when they did.

Games against North, Saints and then GWS showed that for some reason we aren't always good at handling an opposition with a point to prove particularly early in games

Overall I think we should learn a lot from the experience

[Topdog]

I'm annoyed with our effort, no need to go much deeper than that

[SonofScray]

I don’t think that your original post is completely fair mjp. I believe most of us can have separate views and emotions about two concepts concerning the game:

1. We were outplayed, outmuscled, didn’t seem to have a lot of tactical options up our sleeves. Our youth and inexperience showed. Our more senior players didn’t take the game by the scruff of the neck. In all measures we were comprehensively beaten by a team that have been top four or thereabouts and with a completely different age and development profile than ours. On that score I feel disappointed and frustrated, but hopeful that there is uncharted to work with.

2. GWS tactics went well beyond just aggressive, hard but fair play. It’s not brave but cowardly to pin a bloke to the ground and claw his face. It’s not brave to throw a gut punch outside of the field of play. The umpires ignored these tactics, the AFL effectively condoned them. I feel vastly different about this aspect of the game. It was disgraceful. It wasn’t why we lost. But it tarnishes their victory and the game as a whole.
Effectively came to post the same in response to the OP. I am angry about those incidents and the umpires affording them the opportunity to run with that behaviour.

I feel like I can hold that as a key part of my experience watching the game AND feel dissapointed that we lost the game and the fight. Once it was clear what the umpires felt was OK, we needed to spill blood and didn't.

[Remi Moses]

We brought a water pistol to a gun fight
Next time we bring s bazooka

[The Pie Man]

By and large I don’t have an issue with how physical GWS were. You hope Matthew Lloyd’s grab about some of the vision burning into our pre season actually plays out, as being a bit meek in these circumstances is a recurring theme.

I am still ropable about the Greene incident and that they feel hard done by. Vision of a Giants player shielding Smith from pulling Greene off Bont while he furiously thrashed his head about genuinely makes me sick and absolutely should’ve seen him rubbed out.

Spent large parts of the final quarter googling lateral ligament damage recovery, sometimes you just have to write days off ..at least as a fan. The players on the other hand ...just hope we don’t turn out a 2019 Melbourne next year

[Eastdog]

I still feel not great about this game a few days on. Disappointing but we need to move on now and I hope we will be better with the experience of a final for our younger players in particular.

[GVGjr]

Years ago both Liberatore and Wallis worked their backsides off over a pre-season because they were sick of Lenny Hayes effectively bullying them in games. Our players should hopefully want to watch vision of the GWS antics and tactics and use it as a motivator for their training over the next 5 or 6 months

[Dry Rot]

I attended both the Giants home and away and finals games.

It's easy to say we creamed them in the home and away game, and we did. But they did fight back in the second quarter which to my eye showed their advantages over us that do not involve the rough stuff discussed here.

They are better kicks.

They spread better.

They are better in the air overall.

In the final, I was in a few rows from the fence in a pocket, scoreboard end. Again, all the advantages I have noted were very visible.

Last but not least, and off topic, for 2 quarters from my vantage point I saw our defenders under utter siege. Collectively I reckon they did pretty well under the circumstances.

[mjp]

2. GWS tactics went well beyond just aggressive, hard but fair play. It’s not brave but cowardly to pin a bloke to the ground and claw his face. It’s not brave to throw a gut punch outside of the field of play. The umpires ignored these tactics, the AFL effectively condoned them. I feel vastly different about this aspect of the game. It was disgraceful. It wasn’t why we lost. But it tarnishes their victory and the game as a whole.

Disagree.

Well - I agree that the Greene incident was ott. The Himmelberg one...whatever - that happens pretty regularly and a half-arsed swinging arm that wouldn't put a hole in a wet paper bag isn't really a cause for much concern. Annoying I guess - and a free kick. But not much more than that.

The Giants were harder and more aggressive. They genuinely 'walked the line'...that's what good teams do. If the umpires are being forced to 'do their job', well, isn't that the level of aggression you WANT to be playing with?

[The bulldog tragician]

Disagree.

Well - I agree that the Greene incident was ott. The Himmelberg one...whatever - that happens pretty regularly and a half-arsed swinging arm that wouldn't put a hole in a wet paper bag isn't really a cause for much concern. Annoying I guess - and a free kick. But not much more than that.

The Giants were harder and more aggressive. They genuinely 'walked the line'...that's what good teams do. If the umpires are being forced to 'do their job', well, isn't that the level of aggression you WANT to be playing with?

To go further on the original question of why as fans we are upset, it is also about an AFL response to Greene’s behaviour that is at the very least inconsistent with other decisions they make. The penalty in no way matched the crime compared to others handed down, where shirtfronts and bumps are more outlawed. And I can’t, respectfully, agree that Greene was just OTT. I personally found it sickening, dangerous and violent and for all the talk of how we should retaliate, I would feel ashamed if our players did anything similar.

[Vred]

For me, we were beaten at the selection table, we should of never played Hayse, West and Young in this game, to me they are way to green for finals footy, with no more than 10 games between them this season.

GWS outplayed us, but the umpiring was shit (Even my one-tooth Collingwood girlfriend said she felt sick watching the game) - And we went in with what seemed to be little to no plan, again, beaten in the coaching box.

I never expected us to make finals this year, but we did, and I am really proud of the guys for that much. I look forward to 2020 with renewed hope that we can break top 4 and really make a good run for the flag, if we stop losing to teams like Carlton, GCS and StK.

[dog town]

Not at all angry at GWS. We allowed ourselves to be bullied even though we knew this was coming. It’s a good wake up call to some of the players and a reminder of how competitive this comp is. This sort of stuff happens and we can bounce back from it easily but we need to keep this lesson in our minds.

When Bont made a bit of a mockery of GWS last time he put a target on his back. We like to mock them as having no history or culture but if you put 40 odd guys living together away from home, playing footy together they will become pretty tight knit. They were never going to be anything less than ferocious in this game and we needed to be ready for it. Standing over their captain after Naughton took a big mark on him was another indication we should expect fireworks.

[Mofra]

For me, we were beaten at the selection table, we should of never played Hayse, West and Young in this game, to me they are way to green for finals footy, with no more than 10 games between them this season.
In fairness to Hayes, he had been performing in the weeks prior and nobody has demanded they own that second wing spot despite a few players being tried there.

Trengove for Young was the miss. I Like Lewis but he's a work in progress and Trengove has genuine mongrel, it's the exact thing we need in finals.

Rhylee handles the hard stuff ok. If anything, I'm more bullish on his future than I was a month ago. Very good hands and will jump at the ball as well.

[Mantis]

In fairness to Hayes, he had been performing in the weeks prior and nobody has demanded they own that second wing spot despite a few players being tried there.

So why didn't he play on the wing? It's very hard to track players on the TV, but about every time I saw him he was play up forward where he added absolutely no value... It was a waste of a spot with how he was used.


Trengove for Young was the miss. I Like Lewis but he's a work in progress and Trengove has genuine mongrel, it's the exact thing we need in finals.

Lewis was fine as a defender given how often the ball came in, he is green, but besides being caught off guard when he marked a touched ball (which wasn't touched) he handled himself reasonably well... JT would've been extremely handy in the ruck where another big body scrapping on the ground would've been beneficial.

[Danjul]

we were nearly -100 for possession

Come up with 10 reasons why this happened and fix half of them over the break.

Then we will have a great year in 2020.

[Danjul]

Lewis was fine as a defender given how often the ball came in, he is green, but besides being caught off guard when he marked a touched ball (which wasn't touched) he handled himself reasonably well...

Agree. In a tough game he proved he can play at this level.

[S Coast Simon]

Like most I agree we were soundly beaten in the game. In the first quarter our players looked slow and tired as if been training really hard. All good they beat us.

I can’t believe the NRL is leading the way with player welfare. Eye gauging 5 weeks suspension. Second offence 8 weeks. They are telling people this is not on and we don’t like the look of this for the kids. My 3.5 year old was asking why he was doing that to the Bont. This is the point the AFL are missing in their desperation to justify GWS’s existence.

This is is the sort of thing that toughens up entire teams. Every time they look Bont in the eyes they will realise they should have helped him. This is the time to make him the Captain.

[bornadog]

Like most I agree we were soundly beaten in the game. In the first quarter our players looked slow and tired as if been training really hard. All good they beat us.

I can’t believe the NRL is leading the way with player welfare. Eye gauging 5 weeks suspension. Second offence 8 weeks. They are telling people this is not on and we don’t like the look of this for the kids. My 3.5 year old was asking why he was doing that to the Bont. This is the point the AFL are missing in their desperation to justify GWS’s existence.

This is is the sort of thing that toughens up entire teams. Every time they look Bont in the eyes they will realise they should have helped him. This is the time to make him the Captain.

That is really tough when a kid asks that. The AFL has hit the lowest it possibly can as far as morals are concerned, with the treatment of this whole incident.

[Axe Man]

I'm annoyed that we apparently knew the Giants plans but could do nothing about them...

GWS Giants ‘leak’ match plan details (https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/gws-giants-leak-match-plan-details-daniher-to-stay-a-bomber-jack-martin/news-story/3fc95113905c7e117b00be4c7c32b5c0)

It’s emerged that the GWS Giants might have a leak.

Sure, they decimated the Western Bulldogs with a 16.17 (113) to 8.7 (55) rout in their elimination final but an hour before the game the Bulldogs camp knew of the Giants’ plans.

That bombshell was dropped by the Seven Network’s Mark Stevens as a guest on SEN radio on Wednesday morning as he told that the Dogs knew about tags on Lachie Hunter and Jason Johannisen and that GWS would look to rough up Marcus Bontempelli.

“At the ground little whispers came out that the Bulldogs knew exactly what GWS were going to do — that Lachie Hunter was going to be tagged, they knew Bont was going to be targeted and they knew that Johannisen was going to have a tag,” Stevens said.

“There was a leak from somewhere, it didn’t help but there was a leak, they knew it was coming and they couldn’t do anything about it — it was unusual that, that info came out.

“The info was correct, they knew the train was coming but it still hit them one million miles an hour.”

Stevens also accused the Bulldogs of not preparing properly for the likely and eventual onslaught from the physical Giants side and their lack of any enforcers in the team.

“The Giants went hard and the Bulldogs I don’t think stood up for themselves enough,” he said.

“If you look at the incident with Bont and (Toby) Greene the first two players on the scene were Rhiley West and Bailey Smith, they’re still almost in their school uniforms.

“They just didn’t have enough enforcers out there, Easton Wood was captain and not really involved in anything mean n — can you imagine if Luke Hodge was in Bulldogs colours what would have happened?

“Someone had to make a stand and I think it underlined that they really missed Tom Liberatore, who is an animal, they had too many puppy dogs.”

[Rocket Science]

Stevo just soundings like a garden-variety footy forum poster there.

[azabob]

I'm annoyed that we apparently knew the Giants plans but could do nothing about them...

GWS Giants ‘leak’ match plan details (https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/gws-giants-leak-match-plan-details-daniher-to-stay-a-bomber-jack-martin/news-story/3fc95113905c7e117b00be4c7c32b5c0)

It’s emerged that the GWS Giants might have a leak.

Sure, they decimated the Western Bulldogs with a 16.17 (113) to 8.7 (55) rout in their elimination final but an hour before the game the Bulldogs camp knew of the Giants’ plans.

That bombshell was dropped by the Seven Network’s Mark Stevens as a guest on SEN radio on Wednesday morning as he told that the Dogs knew about tags on Lachie Hunter and Jason Johannisen and that GWS would look to rough up Marcus Bontempelli.

“At the ground little whispers came out that the Bulldogs knew exactly what GWS were going to do — that Lachie Hunter was going to be tagged, they knew Bont was going to be targeted and they knew that Johannisen was going to have a tag,” Stevens said.

“There was a leak from somewhere, it didn’t help but there was a leak, they knew it was coming and they couldn’t do anything about it — it was unusual that, that info came out.

“The info was correct, they knew the train was coming but it still hit them one million miles an hour.”

Stevens also accused the Bulldogs of not preparing properly for the likely and eventual onslaught from the physical Giants side and their lack of any enforcers in the team.

“The Giants went hard and the Bulldogs I don’t think stood up for themselves enough,” he said.

“If you look at the incident with Bont and (Toby) Greene the first two players on the scene were Rhiley West and Bailey Smith, they’re still almost in their school uniforms.

“They just didn’t have enough enforcers out there, Easton Wood was captain and not really involved in anything mean n — can you imagine if Luke Hodge was in Bulldogs colours what would have happened?

“Someone had to make a stand and I think it underlined that they really missed Tom Liberatore, who is an animal, they had too many puppy dogs.”

Hmmm Stevo said that on RSN. Surely he didn’t say exactly the same thing on SEN?

[bornadog]

Hmmm Stevo said that on RSN. Surely he didn’t say exactly the same thing on SEN?

The report has stuffed that up, it was RSN. I posted the segment in the Audio thread

[AshMac]

How can anyone not be annoyed with the greene incident and the Himmelberg incident? Ok, avoided suspension.... but its not even a free kick?

I know it’s finals - get that it’s different from H&A - but they crossed a line and should have been protected by better umpiring to curtail that treatment.

The fact that as a team we weren’t ready for it is a different issue.

Also, not blaming the umpires for us losing.

[SonofScray]

You can't go around punching blokes. You can't go around gouging blokes.

Unless you can afford it.

[AshMac]

You can't go around punching blokes. You can't go around gouging blokes.

Unless you can afford it.

You could last Saturday

[Hotdog60]

Green needed a Danny Southern head lock to see how tuff he is.

I often wonder if the AFL will go down this path at some stage just because they are so week and inconsistent in their findings.

Nearly 2 hours long but very interesting viewing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqkO5wxYFsM

[1eyedog]

We played a bunch of kids and it showed. Need to mature physically and mentally before next September.