The 'Junior Footy' to 'Senior Footy' Disconnect.

[mjp]

Everyone is going to hate this post. That's OK. Well, it's not OK 'cos I don't really want to be on an island here but...

In my post Giants loss thread about 'who are we upset with' there was a well made point by a poster (I'm intentionally not quoting them) that the way the AFL conducted themselves (ie. not suspending Greene) is the sort of action that would discourage him/her from allowing their kids from playing footy when they reach that age.

I have been thinking (a lot) about that statement and I know it is one that would be shared by most of the other parents with kids in my now 12yo's team...and I could say the same about my 17yo.

The problem is though that footy at junior level has become so NICE that whenever something does go awry, it is so unexpected that everyone completely loses their mind. Everyone wants to be 'mates' with the team managers of rival sides laughing and joking before games and offering support to one another...right up until the moment when 'something' happens which triggers everyone to run to the Match Day Official (another parent on a roster) screaming blue murder and demanding the immediate intervention of a higher power....I have seen more sideline angst at the junior footy this year than ever before - most of it caused by pretty trivial events. A bit of push and shove amongst 12-year olds (let alone 17 year olds) seems enough to send the sidelines into a frenzy of fury and screaming and all sorts...

Footy is a combative game played by people who WANT to engage in a physical sport. The line is going to be crossed. It just is. But at junior level, that 'line' is being pulled back further and further each year...once upon a time, a high tackle was a high tackle - and resulted in a free kick. Now a high tackle is deemed worthy of a red card by what seems like 90% of the people watching the game...Not only that, there is a huge emphasis on artificial sportsmanship (players from both team engage in a group hugging/cheering session after the game) and little emphasis given to the 'genuine' sportsmanship (returning the ball to the umpire, helping an opponent to his feet, etc) that was once part of the game. It seems we want boxes ticked and we want everyone to keep up appearances...but the stuff that is genuine is never spoken about/celebrated. And because of this, rather than a player being crunched in a hard tackle then helped to his feet by the tackler, what happens is he is still crunched in the tackle but - because there is no emphasis on the 'physical' nature of the game - when he jumps up he wants to push and shove the tackler with Mum and Dad (and often the coach) screaming at the field demanding a 'dangerous tackle' free kick be awarded.

Where am I going with this? I actually don't know. But what I do know is we need to be teaching our kids to play what is a physical sport in a physical way. And we need to go back to celebrating the physical elements of the game from a young age - it is not often there is a 'genuinely serious' injury caused by physical contact (the two hospital trips for my two this year have both been from basketball) and even less often that there is an injury caused by an action outside the laws of the game (such as striking etc).

[jeemak]

People have a tendency to make excuses for people, including kids, who behave like pricks on the field. That's where the effort should be focused.

People who behave like pricks on the field, including kids, know they are being pricks. We need to remove pricks from football and just get on with playing good hard competitive sport.

(We won't do that. We'll put them on Ch7 or Ch9 and hope they don't say something homophobic or racist whilst being apologists for violent behaviour.)

[jeemak]

Not sure why but I felt I had to get that off my chest!

[bornadog]

These days I don't see any junior footy but would be interested how it plays out in your city, ie is it different to MJP's experience in Perth. I know alot of parents on the side line can be a real nuisance and upset the game with the way they carry on about their little Johnny or Jenny.

[mjp]

We need to remove pricks from football and just get on with playing good hard competitive sport.


Let the players sort it out. I like to say that a$$holes are EVERYONE's problem...so EVERYONE needs to get involved in 'fixing' them. I think the same rule applies to people who are 'behaving like pricks'.

The problem I see is no-one lets the players sort it out. The parents on the sideline want to scream at each other about what may or may not have happened and who may (or may not) have been upset/offended.

There's always someone who is bigger/stronger/faster etc. And everyone's time comes (one way or the other).

[jeemak]

Let the players sort it out. I like to say that a$$holes are EVERYONE's problem...so EVERYONE needs to get involved in 'fixing' them. I think the same rule applies to people who are 'behaving like pricks'.

The problem I see is no-one lets the players sort it out. The parents on the sideline want to scream at each other about what may or may not have happened and who may (or may not) have been upset/offended.

There's always someone who is bigger/stronger/faster etc. And everyone's time comes (one way or the other).

Nah, too many people as collateral along the way unfortunately. I like the sentiment, but most people are reasonable and don't respond to violence with violence, or ostracism.

This is why you need parents to be reasonable, take a breath, and actually take responsibility for the prick kids they've raised if they've raised prick kids. Also, parents need to self regulate on a team or club level. If there's bad behaviour it needs to be called out and addressed.

[bornadog]

Nah, too many people as collateral along the way unfortunately. I like the sentiment, but most people are reasonable and don't respond to violence with violence, or ostracism.

This is why you need parents to be reasonable, take a breath, and actually take responsibility for the prick kids they've raised if they've raised prick kids. Also, parents need to self regulate on a team or club level. If there's bad behaviour it needs to be called out and addressed.

The other issues is parents coaching their kid and telling them what to do and confusing the kid

[mjp]

This is why you need parents to be reasonable, take a breath, and actually take responsibility for the prick kids they've raised if they've raised prick kids.

...you need parents to be reasonable?

LOL. It is the parents behaviour my whole post is about...the kids are (mostly) fine. But - as I said - if one thing goes wrong the PARENTS lose their mind, and in doing so, cause things to escalate.

AND. In the car ride home/at the dinner table, rather than just being quiet they continue to go on (and on, and on) about "IT" (whatever "it" was) which contributes to the players over-reacting in future seasons.

It's a contact sport. Make contact. And understand that someone is going to make contact with you...and you are going to be ok. And if you just go lower and harder, you wont be the one who gets hurt (if anyone gets hurt at all which is pretty unlikely). And by the way, a bloody nose is not 'getting hurt' - it's a bloody nose. It'll be OK.

No-one wants players - particularly young players - being slung to the ground and concussed etc...this isn't about that. But footy is a physical game and should be appreciated as such.

[jeemak]

I understood your point, but of course you need the parents to be reasonable. Who's going to fix it if not the parents?

Yes they are the problem. But they're the only group who can fix it, and it will take a couple of generations to turn the tide and start improving.

[Topdog]

Parents these days (and i have 3 kids under 10) are are interesting breed. So many helicopter parents and parents that want to be involved in literally everything. It's a bloody nuisance.
Coached my eldest boys soccer team this year and there were constant problems with parents getting too involved.
Quite a few clubs in the league have started implementing rules for where parents have to watch the game from so that they can't interfere too much.

[jeemak]

My first experience of it was when I was 19 or so, assistant coach of the under 14's of the junior club I played for. Thought I'd help give something back. My best mate was coach.

We were inclusive of the parents, the parents were pretty good actually. One day the team didn't do anything we directed them to, and we just wanted to focus them. I got them into a huddle at quarter time and asked the parents to let the coach talk to them first and then go for it, go and chat with your kids. I didn't yell, I wasn't aggressive, just asked the question audibly so everyone could hear.

As I was sitting on the bench taking a rest (I was runner as well), the club president who's kid was in the team got right into my face and shouted at me doing the full finger point to eye level that I wasn't allowed to tell parents not to talk to their kids until the coach had...........My Twodogs instincts didn't get the better of me and I allowed the finger pointing and waving. But the dude was wiped, end of story.

It basically turned me off. The kids didn't have to listen to the coach, or didn't have to focus on team oriented things that were important and that we were trying to teach them. The times had changed (that was late 90's) compared to when I was their age five years earlier.

From what I hear it's gotten much much worse. Footy clubs were weird enough as they were without parents being complete sociopaths.

[SquirrelGrip]

...It is the parents behaviour my whole post is about...the kids are (mostly) fine.

There’s so much to unpack here, but let’s start. There are junior rugby league associations in NSW that have banned parents. At first I thought it was appalling, but the more anyone is around junior sport, the more you understand how much better it would be without the parents.

Just this year alone in junior footy in suburban Melbourne, I have seen parent water carriers spit on the umpire, a club coaching coordinator label a goal umpire a cheat when he went to confer with the field umpire (he didn’t realise the goal umpire was a volunteer for, his own club!), an 11 year old screaming from the field to his dad on the sidelines pleading him to shut up, and I have much more.

My biggest issue is the treatment of umpires, again mainly by parents, but increasingly by kids who mimic their behaviour, including when they go to watch an AFL or even a suburban game. Kids have both arms out-stretched calling for free kicks that are rarely there. The parents are even worse, screaming baaalll and yelling abuse at umpires who are just young teenagers themselves. And then I go to an AFL game where umpires are booed the minute they walk on the field before making any decision, then pilloried for every decision that doesn’t go the way of that supporters team. The kids watch this behaviour and inevitably repeat it. When I say parents, I look at the grandparents, and they are usually worse, further embracing the culture where the umpies are against us, maggots of whatever colour they are wearing.

This week, I spoke with a past multiple AFL Premiership coach about this exact issue and what could we do about it. How do we change the culture? How do we change the respect of umpires in a sport which he labelled the most difficult sport in the world to officiate? He had looked closely over his decades in the game and has no idea. What hope do we have?

In another post, I quoted Don Pyke from his statement of resignation this week and his concern about how we measure contentment in the game. Regrettably when I watch live footy now, so many of the supporters seem to get enjoyment from yelling abuse at umpires, the opposition, and even their own players. Think about it, who is your favourite whipping boy? In cricket this morning, Mitch Marsh even acknowledged that he knew most Australian supporters hate him, but he just keeps his head down and tries his best. Sport is used by the fans as an outlet for their pent up emotions from a rough week at work or home, an escape where bad behaviour is tolerated. No wonder players increasingly feel the pressure and decide they don’t have to put up with it anymore, regardless of their enormous salaries.

I’m not sure I know where I’m going this anymore than you did with the opening post mjp, but until we adults start behaving like, well, adults, the kids have no hope.

[jeemak]

Sport on the weekend as an outlet is becoming increasingly toxic, largely because everyone is completely cooked from the week they've just had and have anxiety towards the week that is facing them.

My poor mother would finish a week of work as a single mother, and she worked hard, and she sacrificed her Friday nights to drive me from the south eastern suburbs to places like Eltham, Seaford, Broadmeadows and anywhere in between to play basketball. She was a fairly passive supporter unless I did something she didn't like from a sportsmanship perspective, but other parents facing variations of or the same pressures weren't. They took it out on players, teenage coaches or teenage umpires. The trend continued through Saturdays at basketball and Sundays at football. One of my only regrets in life is that I put her through that.

Life's hard, some people can't cope with it and it results in poor behaviour. The need to compete with the Jones's has gotten far more cut-throat, the media tells us if we're not winning in our own eyes or those around us we've failed and we need to be aggressive to actually be that winner. At all costs, disregarding actual fair play and togetherness that club sport should bring.

We have a ridiculous private debt to GDP ratio (mortgage stress, continual saving and budgeting just to keep afloat), people aren't getting the pay increases they used to get and genuinely can't keep up with the growing competition that is surviving or raising kids in the modern world. Everyone is stressed as *!*!*!*!. It's little wonder Sunday football is a melting pot for shit behaviour from parents.

[westdog54]

It staggers me to hear umpires being called cheats at local and junior footy level.

The clubs should be doing more to discourage the sort of behaviour that MJP quite rightly raised but I dare say the stark reality for many junior clubs clubs that they can't afford to lose players, meaning they turn a blind eye.

Parents need to remember that it ain't about them and their parenting. It's about their kid and their enjoyment of the game.

[ledge]

I used to coach junior soccer and the biggest problem was parents berating their own kids !

[The Pie Man]

I coached U9 basketball when I was a kid and kept it pretty simple - outside of training stuff, only really taught them a zone defence.

Towards the end of my 2nd (and last) season coaching I tried to teach them about going hard to basket - training this was two birds, asking guys to learn how to take a charge while seeing how easy it is for those with the ball to get to the ring or draw a blocking foul.

That was the beginning of the end - parents complained and I made my exit at the end of that season.


Fast forward 20 years to watching my 5YO at Auskick (the REAL cause of on ball congestion) and you can just tell kids (maybe mainly boys) gravitate to a wrestle. It looks like they have fun getting physical, but it’s frowned upon. My son laid a perfect tackle on someone a few months back and I had to act horrified (was VERY proud - and the other kid was fine) but I’d hate for him to inadvertently hurt someone.

Not sure I’ve added much...

[mjp]

Fast forward 20 years to watching my 5YO at Auskick (the REAL cause of on ball congestion) and you can just tell kids (maybe mainly boys) gravitate to a wrestle. It looks like they have fun getting physical, but it’s frowned upon. My son laid a perfect tackle on someone a few months back and I had to act horrified (was VERY proud - and the other kid was fine) but I’d hate for him to inadvertently hurt someone.

Not sure I’ve added much...

I think you've added heaps. Your comments about the tackle laid by your son are a key element of what I am talking about. Tackling is inside the rules. He laid a tackle. The other kid was NOT hurt. So celebrate it. Because we are so quick to criticise physical actions we are unable to cope with them as the age groups go up and the testosterone starts to flow...

The comments I have read elsewhere in the post about parents screaming at umpires...honestly, it is out of control. I do the 1st aid for my 12 yo and am usually the runner for my 17 year old...my comments during the game to the coaches (playing an 'official' role means I am generally 'inside' the marked security line where the coaches stand!) are usually:

- No, that's not a high tackle.
- Yep, that was definitely holding the ball. And now that IS 50m.
- It might have been in the back but it was 50-50, little Johnny has GOT to be stronger there.
- He has got it...well, he had it until he dropped it after being tackled - that's not a free kick.

Sure, the umpires are terrible...but so are the players. But the umpires don't complain about the poor play ("Yes, I should have waited for him to mark it before blowing my whistle but who could have suspected he would drop a simple chest mark standing 20m in the clear") the players visibly complain on-field about 'poor' decisions...echoing the shreaking (is that a word) from the sideline.

[bornadog]

The other issue is the abuse of umpires by parents. It is becoming harder and harder to attract young umpires due to the abuse they receive.

[Twodogs]

It staggers me to hear umpires being called cheats at local and junior footy level.

The clubs should be doing more to discourage the sort of behaviour that MJP quite rightly raised but I dare say the stark reality for many junior clubs clubs that they can't afford to lose players, meaning they turn a blind eye.

Parents need to remember that it ain't about them and their parenting. It's about their kid and their enjoyment of the game.

Bingo bango, the golden rule of parenting/caring for someone. IT"S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU!!!!!


I coached U9 basketball when I was a kid and kept it pretty simple - outside of training stuff, only really taught them a zone defence.

Towards the end of my 2nd (and last) season coaching I tried to teach them about going hard to basket - training this was two birds, asking guys to learn how to take a charge while seeing how easy it is for those with the ball to get to the ring or draw a blocking foul.

That was the beginning of the end - parents complained and I made my exit at the end of that season.


Fast forward 20 years to watching my 5YO at Auskick (the REAL cause of on ball congestion) and you can just tell kids (maybe mainly boys) gravitate to a wrestle. It looks like they have fun getting physical, but it’s frowned upon. My son laid a perfect tackle on someone a few months back and I had to act horrified (was VERY proud - and the other kid was fine) but I’d hate for him to inadvertently hurt someone.

Not sure I’ve added much...


Years ago I was sitting in a Mothers' group with my son who had just started toddling, he would have been 3 or 4. Anyway he reached into the toybox at the exact same time that his little mate did and they both wanted the same toy. My son took one look at the other kid and planted one right on his chin and the kid went down like a sack of youknowwhat. I kind of punched the air but apologized to the other kid's dad but he wasn't having any of it. He came over and said "Dun worry about it mate. Nobody else is going to let him just take whatever he wants0 Anyway they are boys and that's how boys sort their problems out."

[Daughter of the West]

I think that sadly some of it is a reflection of the reduction in civility in society as a whole.

Ask anyone who works in customer service, my lord. People that abuse 17 year old checkout staff because there aren't enough registers open. Because the kids on the front end are responsible for making those decisions, right? And god, there is no way in the world I would be a teacher in this day and age.

It's almost like everyone is in a battle of one upmanship - I'm more rushed, more stressed than you, my time is more precious, I'm smarter than you are, therefore you can cop all my abuse for what's really about my deep seated insecurities. I spoke to my old tennis coach quite a few years ago, and he said that parents had turned up the heat exponentially since I'd left juniors. Everything has just turned into another ruthless business transaction and everyone is an expert.

As to how you turn it around, I don't know. It's not a massive faceless force that is being horrible to everyone in their path, it's every day people. People like you and I (hopefully not any Woofers!). Do we start calling it out? Education programs? Banning parents?

[bornadog]

We need these signs at every junior game:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEZGnM2UUAA_BoS?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[comrade]

And add to the sign - Parents, please don't project your own insecurities and failings on your kids.

[Twodogs]

And add to the sign - Parents, please don't project your own insecurities and failings on your kids.

No living vicariously through your kids!