Our depth players

[GVGjr]

I've had a look at a number of teams various WOOF members are offering up for round one of 2020 and their are a few players not being mentioned that I think could surprise

Bailey Williams - I'm not sure why Williams fell down the pecking order in 2019 but I think there were a few reasons he struggled to hold a regular spot
After training with the midfield group in the preseason he was played in the back line with limited results. He played rounds 1, 5 and 10 before being given a more regular spot but then was injured late in the year so 9 senior games was all he could muster which is a poor return over his previous two seasons. It was a haphazard season by his standards.
The club wasn't quick at all in offering another contract either but that could be due to a combination of a few things including his form, an oversupply of mid sized defenders and potentially that he didn't adapt to the roles he was being asked to play and if I speculate further perhaps his focus wasn't quite where it needed to be. List spots were also in very short supply. He was certainly not given many chances to ride through any challenges around form so was the coach sending a strong message to lift his work rate?

At his best, Williams is an AFL quality player and I remain very bullish about his 2020 season. I think Doc mentioned him as a potential option on the wing and that could suit both him and the club perfectly. He's played 41 senior games in his four seasons at the club and there is no reason why he can't continue to build on that. If he is just a depth player then it underlines just how deep our list runs.

Williams is an intriguing player for us in 2020. Capable of a lot but perhaps coming from a long way back

Next up...Billy Gowers

[Go_Dogs]

I wonder how good his endurance is and whether he's capable of playing a role on the wing? He seems best suited to burst speed roles, so I see him either playing as a running defender or an inside-out mid at this stage. He's got a booming kick, but needs to improve his accuracy.

Big year for him.

[bornadog]

I am undecided on where Williams should be playing, given the depth we have with HBF. With Duryea coming into the team, it has limited Williams' opportunities. How do you fit in Duryea, Daniel, Suckling Crozier, Wood, JJ in the backline with the talls of Keath, Cordy, Young, Trengrove. Williams is going to have to either reinvent himself, or go for an inside mid role.

[GVGjr]

It's hard to imagine how our leading goal kicker from 2018 (26) in Billy Gowers slid back to the pack so much in 2019 but if you look at most of the best 22 teams being suggested by WOOF members Gowers will continue to struggle to get many games in 2020

Sam Lloyd was an obvious inclusion that forced a rethink by the MC with Gowers but there were also 2 noticeable areas he struggled with and they are goal kicking accuracy (13 goals 14 behinds) and his tackle count of just 13 from 10 senior games.

For a mid sized forward he clearly needs to be more accurate in front of goal and lift his defensive work rate

He was an almost automatic selection in the first half of the season but finished with just 10 senior games for the season

2020 is a contract year for Gowers so he needs to have a strong preseason and try and establish a spot in the best 22.
I think it needs to be as a forward pocket but with Wallis returning to the team next season plus Lloyd, Dickson, Dale the resting midfielders Gowers will need more than a bit of good luck

Is Gowers more than just a depth player? Can he establish himself back into the selection mix? I really don't know but it does show me how much depth we have for 2020

Next up...Will Hayes

[Hotdog60]

Billy when he's on can be a handy player but as past performances have show he can be also a liability.
For ever one or two good things he does there are the one or two silly frees that he gives away.
For example in 2018 frees for 11 frees against 27 and in 2019 FF 5 and FA 13.
The silly frees the he gives away can sometimes stifle a bit of momentum that we have created and I think sometimes it must deflate the work done by players up field.
Unless he can turn this part of his games around I think his head is on the chopping block and its just a matter of time when the blade falls.

[bornadog]

Who do we see Billy competing against in our best 22? I see it as Dale, so if Dale doesn't kick goals, perhaps Billy will be given his spot. However, at best he is a depth player and needs to pull something out of the ordinary at VFL level (like a bag of goals in several matches) to get into the AFL team. At VFL he has also tried his hand at midfield, but with limited success.

[Twodogs]

I don't think Gowers justifies his spot in the team with an average of only 1.3 tackles a game.

[GVGjr]

When Will Hayes broke into the side at round 5 I didn't think he had the form to warrant the selection
He was kept into the side for 5 weeks before being sent back to the VFL. To his credit he performed well earning a recall for game against Essendon where we thrashed them by over 100 points and stayed in the side for the balance of the season

He's got great endurance, good pace and has a reasonable skill level. He also works very hard with his tackling
After a shocking performance in the elimination final I'm not sure where he fits in for 2020 but I can seem him continuing to improve
Can he continue to improve on his 9 senior games? Only time will tell but depth player or not, Hayes is a more than handy player to have on the list.

[weltschmerz]

Hayes did well for the last pick in the draft. You wouldn't expect a player picked in the 70s to have played nine senior games.

[bornadog]

He has endurance and can become an attacking wingman. Needs to improve his ball handling skills and be cleaner with picking up the ball off the ground. I think he will improve as his confidence grows.

[Go_Dogs]

I think Billy is going to struggle for much senior game time, but all of Wallis, Dickson and Dale have missed extended periods with injury before, so as an insurance policy who could potentially push his way in otherwise if form dictates, he's certainly worth his spot on the list this year. I imagine a couple of our small/medium forwards will be under pressure at the end of 2020.


Hayes I have more faith in, although expect others may go past him this season. He's a really solid option though for the other wing spot and I can see him playing quite a bit of senior footy.

[AshMac]

Great post - really enjoyed the summary on those players. I’d love to see both Hayes and Gowers push into regular senior contention.

Gowers needs to lift his work rate when the ball isn’t in hand. He doesn’t have the raw talent to get by on that alone but has enough to deliver if he works as hard as Dickson did this year. His kicking is woeful, but apart from Schale and Dale that seems to be a requirement for a dogs forward.

Hayes had an “almost, nearly” season for me. Got into the right place so often and got so close to getting his hands on it, or so close to getting it to advantage when he did. Played some great games in some of our best games but it’s much easier to ski downhill than uphill. As a first year I’m quietly optimistic and would love him to turn into a regular player. Great engine, strong body - a little more sheen, a clearer head in congestion with experience and perhaps....perhaps.

There are a couple of other players I’m keen to add to the list:

Jong - lots spoken about him recently so won’t say a lot but best position is mid IMO which is a tough spot to break into right now

Wally - been passed by so many others now as an inside mid, would love to see him turned into a permanent forward as he rarely gets beaten one on one and is a decent kick

Libba - can’t believe I’m writing this, won’t be popular - but Dunkley so far ahead of him now. Even lipinski and smith outperformed of late. Who knows if he had a proper crack at the 2019 season - but on recent form alone he may not line up round 1. First player I’d pick for the GWS final last year though - does add a lot to the team just by being there. I’m torn on this one outside of just form.

Trengove - Don’t see a role for him w the trades of Bruce and Keith. Surely we prioritise the development of Lewis Young - why did we give him the no. 2 otherwise?

Others I’d love to know where they are at are Greene, Lynch and La Young.

[Mofra]

Libba won't be in full training until February so he won't have the body of work other inside mids will have under their belt.

It will be interesting to see how the Youngs go as the season progresses. Both have shown good signs but there would be others ahead of them now, specially since Keath has been brought into the club.

[mjp]

This thread is great.

What it tells ALL of us is that we have a lot of talent on our list...but talent isn't actually worth much to any of the players in question - what matters is that they perform.

I would suggest the reason we all had so much trouble selecting a hypothetical round 1 team wasn't so much because there is an excess of talent (there isn't) but because we have a long list of players who honestly haven't 'proven it' at AFL level.

If you wanted to start a thread called 'players whose onfield performances for the Bulldogs demand they are selected in the side' I think that would be a pretty small list.

- Bont.
- Macrae
- Dunks
- Hunter
- Crozier
- JJ
- Naughton
- Daniel (though I have heard he is 'just hanging on' which seems weird to me.

ummmm....a couple of years ago I would have said Wood. Is there anyone else?

[comrade]

This thread is great.

What it tells ALL of us is that we have a lot of talent on our list...but talent isn't actually worth much to any of the players in question - what matters is that they perform.

I would suggest the reason we all had so much trouble selecting a hypothetical round 1 team wasn't so much because there is an excess of talent (there isn't) but because we have a long list of players who honestly haven't 'proven it' at AFL level.

If you wanted to start a thread called 'players whose onfield performances for the Bulldogs demand they are selected in the side' I think that would be a pretty small list.

- Bont.
- Macrae
- Dunks
- Hunter
- Crozier
- JJ
- Naughton
- Daniel (though I have heard he is 'just hanging on' which seems weird to me.

ummmm....a couple of years ago I would have said Wood. Is there anyone else?

I would definitely add:

English (for lack of any better options on top of some solid performances)
Lloyd

==

Josh Bruce is a walk up start but hasn't played for us yet.
Bailey Smith is almost a lock but let's see if second year blues hits.

[Mofra]

If you wanted to start a thread called 'players whose onfield performances for the Bulldogs demand they are selected in the side' I think that would be a pretty small list.

- Bont.
- Macrae
- Dunks
- Hunter
- Crozier
- JJ
- Naughton
- Daniel (though I have heard he is 'just hanging on' which seems weird to me.

ummmm....a couple of years ago I would have said Wood. Is there anyone else?
Players who have proven themselves in one year on form and/or in other AFL systems:
- Duryea
- Lloyd
- Keath
- Bruce

Given our MC, I'd say Suckling is close too. We tend not to bring in mature players from other clubs without playing them in a specific role.

[mjp]

I would definitely add:

English (for lack of any better options on top of some solid performances)
Lloyd

==

Josh Bruce is a walk up start but hasn't played for us yet.
Bailey Smith is almost a lock but let's see if second year blues hits.

English is still a kid with potential, as is Smith.

Bruce - we have NO IDEA on. I remember Jade Rawlings.
Lloyd? Has he played more than 10 good games in our colours?

[mjp]

Players who have proven themselves in one year on form and/or in other AFL systems:
- Duryea
- Lloyd
- Keath
- Bruce

Given our MC, I'd say Suckling is close too. We tend not to bring in mature players from other clubs without playing them in a specific role.

I liked the way Suckling stood up for us during 2018 when not too many others did. The others you mention have all proven something...just not for us! Duryea is the closest but needs an injury free, consistent year.

[Mofra]

I liked the way Suckling stood up for us during 2018 when not too many others did. The others you mention have all proven something...just not for us! Duryea is the closest but needs an injury free, consistent year.
True, they haven't.
Going by recent history, since 2015 every single senior player we have targeted has has a significant on-field role the following season.

I'd argue Keath is the most untried of the bunch considering games played and role for us, but I would be willing to lock both Bruce and Keath in for round 1.

[bornadog]

Lloyd? Has he played more than 10 good games in our colours?

Leading goal kicker with 38 goals

[mjp]

Leading goal kicker with 38 goals

Gowers led the goal kicking 12 months ago.

My question about ‘more than 10 good games’ stands. I like him, but to say he is proven as a bulldog is just not true.

[GVGjr]

English is still a kid with potential, as is Smith.

Bruce - we have NO IDEA on. I remember Jade Rawlings.
Lloyd? Has he played more than 10 good games in our colours?

Regarding Lloyd, he kicked 2 goals or more in 14 of his 23 games for us so he would be close to the 10 good game mark, Given the position he plays he is unlikely to be a huge possession winner but had he kicked a bit straighter (31 behinds) then who knows how we would view him

I agree though that it all depends on how he backs up in 2020.

[Go_Dogs]

Where does Lipinski sit mjp? I’d have him very close to proven contributor.

Others like McLean and Cordy should be there too, and I say should because they haven’t consistently been the players we need them to be. Some of that is perhaps through the roles we’ve asked them to play.

[GVGjr]

Where does Lipinski sit mjp? I’d have him very close to proven contributor.

Others like McLean and Cordy should be there too, and I say should because they haven’t consistently been the players we need them to be. Some of that is perhaps through the roles we’ve asked them to play.


Just my view but I think we have 4 categories of players
Established - Generally in best 18.
Fringe - Generally ranged between 18 and 27. Being considered most weeks
Depth - Generally between 27 and 38. Mainly covering injuries but can still force their way into the mix
Developing - Younger players and the balance of the list. Waiting on their chances

You could argue their is also the elite talent group and one for injured players.

The players in each category can move quickly based on form and injuries

In that case Lipinski would probably be best placed as a fringe player but very close to established

[AshMac]

Just my view but I think we have 4 categories of players
Established - Generally in best 18.
Fringe - Generally ranged between 18 and 27. Being considered most weeks
Depth - Generally between 27 and 38. Mainly covering injuries but can still force their way into the mix
Developing - Younger players and the balance of the list. Waiting on their chances

You could argue their is also the elite talent group and one for injured players.

The players in each category can move quickly based on form and injuries

In that case Lipinski would probably be best placed as a fringe player but very close to established

Did wonder what the definition of depth player was for this thread - clear now.

Based on the above, am I correct in assuming that premierships are generally won by established and fringe players and it’s less common (does happen) that a team relies on depth?

[Mofra]

Did wonder what the definition of depth player was for this thread - clear now.

Based on the above, am I correct in assuming that premierships are generally won by established and fringe players and it’s less common (does happen) that a team relies on depth?
Generally, although WCE in 2018 are surely the exception missing their best ruck and best wingman.
That's about $1.8m worth of players on the sideline when they won, although $2m worth of key forwards in 2016 were beaten by Hamling and Fletcher Roberts so anything can happen on the day.

You'd have to go back to Shane Ellen's 5 goals to see a real depth player making a difference on GF day. Perhaps Will Langford kiickign 3 goals in a GF as well.

[GVGjr]

Did wonder what the definition of depth player was for this thread - clear now.

Based on the above, am I correct in assuming that premierships are generally won by established and fringe players and it’s less common (does happen) that a team relies on depth?

I think you need a contribution from both. What is probably most important is a somewhat healthy list

[1eyedog]

English is still a kid with potential, as is Smith.

Bruce - we have NO IDEA on. I remember Jade Rawlings.
Lloyd? Has he played more than 10 good games in our colours?

Bruce will be massive next year, can play an important role forward. Clunks them and will be a key target. Jade Rawlings was a backman who was turned into an ad hoc full forward, didn't even want to be here. Bruce is a completely different proposition. He has the runs on the board easily best 22 if fit.

[mjp]

Where does Lipinski sit mjp? I’d have him very close to proven contributor.

Others like McLean and Cordy should be there too, and I say should because they haven’t consistently been the players we need them to be. Some of that is perhaps through the roles we’ve asked them to play.

Your second sentence sums up my thoughts on McClean and Cordy. Cordy tries hard but I actually find it hard to formulate an argument that his best AFL footy has been played in the role he is usually assigned (tall defender). To me he is a really positive, aggressive forward and a 'hard-working, high effort, largely ineffective defender'. McClean has been poor for 2-seasons (you could argue 3) and I would not be surprised if he spends significant time in the VFL during 2020.

Lipinski is in many ways the opposite of many of our young running players (Williams, Dale, McClean etc) in that his performances are actually BETTER than his reputation. I battled with MC decisions to leave him out of the side early last year but at the same time I can see his limitations (as the MC no doubt can at training) but it really is hard to criticise him based on output. All of THAT said, he just hasn't done it for long enough to be 'counted on'.

[bornadog]

Your second sentence sums up my thoughts on McClean and Cordy. Cordy tries hard but I actually find it hard to formulate an argument that his best AFL footy has been played in the role he is usually assigned (tall defender). To me he is a really positive, aggressive forward and a 'hard-working, high effort, largely ineffective defender'. McClean has been poor for 2-seasons (you could argue 3) and I would not be surprised if he spends significant time in the VFL during 2020.

Lipinski is in many ways the opposite of many of our young running players (Williams, Dale, McClean etc) in that his performances are actually BETTER than his reputation. I battled with MC decisions to leave him out of the side early last year but at the same time I can see his limitations (as the MC no doubt can at training) but it really is hard to criticise him based on output. All of THAT said, he just hasn't done it for long enough to be 'counted on'.

I agree with this. I have not been impressed with Mclean for some time now, and Cordy just can't play the KPP role, so what is left for him?

[Mofra]

I agree with this. I have not been impressed with Mclean for some time now, and Cordy just can't play the KPP role, so what is left for him?
He's 23. I'm not willing to write him off considering Morris debuted at age 23. As a pure KPD though I'm not as sold as the MC are - he can develop as a lockdown player for the medium forwards though. The de Goey, Raynor types that are in vogue.

I never thought I'd say this, but - we have too many tall forwards to fit Cordy in ahead of the ball. Right now as a forward Bruce and Naughton are close enough to proven and Schache has shown signs. Marra will develop there as a mobile tall as well.

[AshMac]

Your second sentence sums up my thoughts on McClean and Cordy. Cordy tries hard but I actually find it hard to formulate an argument that his best AFL footy has been played in the role he is usually assigned (tall defender). To me he is a really positive, aggressive forward and a 'hard-working, high effort, largely ineffective defender'. McClean has been poor for 2-seasons (you could argue 3) and I would not be surprised if he spends significant time in the VFL during 2020.

Lipinski is in many ways the opposite of many of our young running players (Williams, Dale, McClean etc) in that his performances are actually BETTER than his reputation. I battled with MC decisions to leave him out of the side early last year but at the same time I can see his limitations (as the MC no doubt can at training) but it really is hard to criticise him based on output. All of THAT said, he just hasn't done it for long enough to be 'counted on'.

Can you breakdown your thoughts on lipinski’s limitations? Is it mostly speed?

[1eyedog]

I agree with this. I have not been impressed with Mclean for some time now, and Cordy just can't play the KPP role, so what is left for him?

McLean is an almost player and I feel a change in role has stunted his progress somewhat. I may be looking through red white and blue glasses but I value him higher than others. He has been sensational at times, critical actually. He has all the attributes to be an automatic selection, great skills, fantastic above his head, quick enough, good pressure player but I agree, 2020 is a big year for him.

Cordy has to play the Hargrave role. Does such a thing still exist i.e. third tall? Having a fit Alex Keath will help him immeasurably.

We have a very talented young list, but we'll need our 2016 stalwarts to once again track on an upward trajectory (Wood, McLean, Cordy, Daniel) in particular if we are to go deep next season.

[Happy Days]

He's 23. I'm not willing to write him off considering Morris debuted at age 23. As a pure KPD though I'm not as sold as the MC are - he can develop as a lockdown player for the medium forwards though. The de Goey, Raynor types that are in vogue.



I could shut down Rayner from my seat on the level one wing.

Please no one bookmark this post.

[comrade]

Honestly thought Cordy looked more than comfortable on Betts in the last H&A game. Anyone bigger or better in the air and he gets spooked.

[GVGjr]

Lipinski is in many ways the opposite of many of our young running players (Williams, Dale, McClean etc) in that his performances are actually BETTER than his reputation. I battled with MC decisions to leave him out of the side early last year but at the same time I can see his limitations (as the MC no doubt can at training) but it really is hard to criticise him based on output. All of THAT said, he just hasn't done it for long enough to be 'counted on'.

Once we started getting the selections right we started playing better football. Lipinski got dropped off one bad JLT game and was sent to the VFL to "work on some things"

[GVGjr]

Your second sentence sums up my thoughts on McClean and Cordy. Cordy tries hard but I actually find it hard to formulate an argument that his best AFL footy has been played in the role he is usually assigned (tall defender). To me he is a really positive, aggressive forward and a 'hard-working, high effort, largely ineffective defender'. McClean has been poor for 2-seasons (you could argue 3) and I would not be surprised if he spends significant time in the VFL during 2020.


I mentioned Cordy as a forward when our interest in Bruce was being speculated on.

I still hold high hopes for him as a defender though. Either he and/or Trengove need to play each week in my opinion

[Rocket Science]

Honestly thought Cordy looked more than comfortable on Betts in the last H&A game. Anyone bigger or better in the air and he gets spooked.

That's the thing, Zaine will always try his guts out but asking him to regularly punch above his weight has predictable consequences.

Keath's arrival might spell trouble for Cords, but it might also help shuffle him down the pecking order to more suitable opponents, to better effect.

I do like the sneaky wildcard forward option he's capable of too.

[bornadog]

Lipinski got dropped off one bad JLT game and was sent to the VFL to "work on some things"

Lippa had a talk to Bevo about what role he should play, and they agreed he could be an inside mid. So he worked on that role in the VFL and finally he earned a recall after some very good VFL games.

[1eyedog]

He's 23. I'm not willing to write him off considering Morris debuted at age 23. As a pure KPD though I'm not as sold as the MC are - he can develop as a lockdown player for the medium forwards though. The de Goey, Raynor types that are in vogue.

I never thought I'd say this, but - we have too many tall forwards to fit Cordy in ahead of the ball. Right now as a forward Bruce and Naughton are close enough to proven and Schache has shown signs. Marra will develop there as a mobile tall as well.

Cordy isn't strong or explosive enough to play on these types of players, never will be imo. In time he may fit a Grimes-type role. These types are more suited to Wood at his best which we can afford to do now we have good rebound out of D50.

[Mofra]

I could shut down Rayner from my seat on the level one wing.

Please no one bookmark this post.
I'm possibly on my lonesome, but I love Rayner. He'll take years to build an AFL ready tank but when he does he's going to be a very good player. He shows glimpses that are far better than 'average player'. I actually really like alot of Brissie's kids - I'd still take McCluggage no 1 instead of no 3, Hipwood, Andrews, and I'll watch Dev Robertson with interest too.

Every coach seems to want a medium forward who can 'do it all'. Our version in the medium term may just happen to be a 194cm contested marking beast named Marra. I guess we wanted Gowers to play that way and Dale plays a little like that 'when he's on' (I have concerns about his consistency) but we really don't have anyone comparable.

[Mofra]

That's the thing, Zaine will always try his guts out but asking him to regularly punch above his weight has predictable consequences.

Keath's arrival might spell trouble for Cords, but it might also help shuffle him down the pecking order to more suitable opponents, to better effect.

I do like the sneaky wildcard forward option he's capable of too.
It begs the wider question - do we want a pure shutdown defender?

We specifically targeted Keath who has done his best work as an interceptor. We played Le Young over Trengove in the final and he's more interceptor. La Young snagged games last year as that tallish intercepter, while we still played both Wood and Crozier who do their best work as medium interceptors.

I like Cordy, I think we lack aggression on the park and Cordy gives us that but he's no interceptor. He's more lockdown who is hot or miss (finals game he was a hit on Cameron, had plenty of misses last year too).

[1eyedog]

I'm possibly on my lonesome, but I love Rayner. He'll take years to build an AFL ready tank but when he does he's going to be a very good player. He shows glimpses that are far better than 'average player'. I actually really like alot of Brissie's kids - I'd still take McCluggage no 1 instead of no 3, Hipwood, Andrews, and I'll watch Dev Robertson with interest too.

Every coach seems to want a medium forward who can 'do it all'. Our version in the medium term may just happen to be a 194cm contested marking beast named Marra. I guess we wanted Gowers to play that way and Dale plays a little like that 'when he's on' (I have concerns about his consistency) but we really don't have anyone comparable.

Spot on. Raynor is a jet, will be a very, very damaging player. McCluggage may be even better in a different way, he has inside skills with explosiveness on the outside. Brisbane will be the real deal very soon and I can see them and us improving together and having some epic top 4 battles.

We did have Stringer re. the role you refer to but we all know how that turned out.

[The Pie Man]

Honestly thought Cordy looked more than comfortable on Betts in the last H&A game. Anyone bigger or better in the air and he gets spooked.

That may be comrade, two points though - thought Betts was poor that day (which could have a lot to with Zaine in fairness) and I still remember Chayce Jones outmarking him in the 2nd quarter that was dead set embarrassing. Walker got him a few times that day as well.

His best football was the 2nd half of 2016 IMV

[1eyedog]

Eddie Betts is cooooked. He's good for a Joe the Goose or two a game these days and that's it.

[comrade]

That may be comrade, two points though - thought Betts was poor that day (which could have a lot to with Zaine in fairness) and I still remember Chayce Jones outmarking him in the 2nd quarter that was dead set embarrassing. Walker got him a few times that day as well.

His best football was the 2nd half of 2016 IMV

Yep, that's what I mean. He handled Betts easily but anyone bigger gave him trouble. He's just not a great one on on defender against any mid/tall forwards.