The Minson forward line experiment

[Dogs 24/7]

What did everyone think of Minson up forward?

Were there some good signs and he just has a lot of learning to do or is the experiment a risky one?

[Sockeye Salmon]

What did everyone think of Minson up forward?

Were there some good signs and he just has a lot of learning to do or is the experiment a risky one?

Worth perservering with for a bit longer.

When Johnno got his last goal Minson had the chance to come in from the side as he only had Johnno and Johnno's opponent to beat. Instead of backing himself in and marking the thing he hesitated and waited for a crumb.

He should mark those 9 out of 10 times.

[Dogs 24/7]

Worth perservering with for a bit longer.When Johnno got his last goal Minson had the chance to come in from the side as he only had Johnno and Johnno's opponent to beat. Instead of backing himself in and marking the thing he hesitated and waited for a crumb.

He should mark those 9 out of 10 times.

I agree but the concern is the reaction time with his decision making.

I hope they keep working him hard in training sessions on his marking and his kicking for goals.

[Mantis]

We have to keep trying with this experiment as we really have no other option.

We have to play with a 'target' man up forward and at present Will is the only one with the body to play this role.

[LostDoggy]

I have my doubts that Eade will stick with this through the season but it is somthing that we should try until at least four games into the H&A season.

[Mofra]

Shame Skipper is injured. He is Grant's height, heavier, has sharper reaction times & can take contested marks.
Skipper is also quite aggresive these days - would be interesting to see how pre-season set-ups would work fit Skipper.

[GVGjr]

Shame Skipper is injured. He is Grant's height, heavier, has sharper reaction times & can take contested marks.
Skipper is also quite aggresive these days - would be interesting to see how pre-season set-ups would work fit Skipper.

Where would you play Skip? Minson, Skipper, up forward and then Hudson and Street in the ruck might be too much.

[Dry Rot]

Is his speed a worry?

Sure, the delivery was crap but he always seemed to be behind his defender.

If we're going to just plonk a tall bloke in the square and just bomb away, then funny enough Street might be better. He's not a bad mark and defenders would need a step ladder to get to him.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Shame Skipper is injured. He is Grant's height, heavier, has sharper reaction times & can take contested marks.
Skipper is also quite aggresive these days - would be interesting to see how pre-season set-ups would work fit Skipper.

Skipper is hopeless

[GVGjr]

Skipper is hopeless

Too simplistic DD. I think it is wrong to simply say a player who made the grade is hopeless.
At times Skipper has played some good games and even some ripper quarters. It's OK question his consistency or skills but not to just dismiss him as being hopeless.

[Rocket Science]

I find it difficult to be anything less than scathing of Skipper for the most part...A bloke with his rare physical attributes could be such an asset to this team, and he's occasionally been able to demonstrate why, but only fleetingly at best. That's the thing, his contributions thus far have been so far short of what he appears capable of, it's irksome, and doubly so given the team's perennially crying out for big men that can contribute.

Aside from modest improvements in contested marking situations over the past year, he's still basically a wingman in a key position players body.

If Skipper performed at the level expected of him, we'd be seeing a lot less forward experiments involving messrs Minson, Wight, Morgan, Davidson, etc.

[LostDoggy]

Let's not beat around the Bush. Skipper was ready to be delisted last year. He played his first game in round 17. Thanks only to Minson being injured. He played well, but he was just kicking cow patties around the Werribee oval before that. I can't see him becoming a premiership forward or ruck from here.

Anyway this thread is about Minson. I'm not going to call it an experiment. He said he's been training with the forwards all pre-season so this isn't an experiment its a new position. Eade has no choice but to persist with it. For me, the jury is still out.

[firstdogonthemoon]

Eade will persist with Minson in the forward line until the experiment fails.

Watching him last night, he has clearly been practising. His kicking for goal was much smoother than previously. I rather enjoyed it.

He needs to get meaner though, he gave way to Johnno at one point which wasnt right - he should OWN the goal square and crush all who oppose him, friend or foe. I reckon if he can do that he might just make it.

[hujsh]

I hope Minson will be better when there is better movement. Hard to do too much when M.Michael is infront of you most of the match

[mike1954]

I think if Minson can work on his quick leads as well as crashing the packs with his big body, I would say its definitely worth the punt of keeping him up forward. It does look like his kicking looks a bit smoother, which can only be a positive.
I think Skipper has the attributes to dominate up forward, but mentally he goes missing. He has a great leap and mark and can kick long, but we just haven't seen enough of it. I would say, his time has come this year, show us what you are made of or lose you're opportunity for good.

[LostDog]

Im gonna get slaughtered for this.

I would rather see the freak Street play at full forward, from the comments in our rnd 2 NAB cup game he is and awesome set shot plus he is unco enough to bring it to ground for the likes of Johnno Aka Higgo and the crumbers, Minson i love the man but the only positive thing i keep hearing about him is he is smart and knows like 4 languages only game he played well was the Darcy 6 goal game in 2005

[LostDoggy]

Will may be OK if the players (a) kick it long enough for him to grab it ..... not have 3-4 players in front of him and (b) stop looking to kick it to Johnno every time they go forward.

Whenever we have played a tall player in the forward line we have NEVER been able to kick it to him in a way that he is able to to a grab.

W may be frustrated ... how do you think Will may be .. or Rocket.

[LostDoggy]

One thing that dissapointed me was that he failed to even make a contest at times which is what he should be doing as a bare minimum (marking and scoring being the best case scenario).

He needs some time and I'm still hopeful.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Watching him last night, he has clearly been practising. His kicking for goal was much smoother than previously. I rather enjoyed it.

He needs to get meaner though, he gave way to Johnno at one point which wasnt right - he should OWN the goal square and crush all who oppose him, friend or foe. I reckon if he can do that he might just make it.

Agree with this one. I thought his kicking for goal looked better than it has in previous seasons. Hopefully he continues to improve on this aspect.

The second part is dead on, fdotm. Minson needs to feel as though he is the 'main man' and commands respect. A few times last night Minson was happy to allow Johnson to contest for the ball just because he's Johnson. Eade, Johnson & the playing group need to get into Will's head and drive home that they have the confidence in him to be 'the man' of the forward line. By this, I don't mean kicking 50+ goals a year. It means giving a contest every time, marking a few himself, bringing it down to ground - taking much needed pressure off Johnson. You need a bit of mean streak, which Minson has, so hopefully they can gel these tools together - it might just work.

He's better than any other options we have. Wight is very ordinary; he will not play a game at CHF in the real season. McDougall is ever fading, Tiller is still a fair way off & Skipper is injured. Minson's got a big heart, he's aggressive and has a big body. He's mobile enough & not the worst kick - he's just got to keep learning and keep playing.

Remember, Minson hasn't played a AFL/VFL match for many months. That, atop of it being his first real hitout in his new position, should mean we can't be too critical of him atm. He needs to be given every chance.

[wimberga]

Will played well against a quality fullback in what was his first senior game since being moved to full forward. He has the power and size to crash packs, (almost took a screamer) and his kicking looks better. His hands are still a little shaky but that can be due to not being in the right position aswell.

The service he recieved last night did nothing for him so it is still much to early to abandon the idea of having him there.

[bornadog]

Will played well against a quality fullback in what was his first senior game since being moved to full forward. He has the power and size to crash packs, (almost took a screamer) and his kicking looks better. His hands are still a little shaky but that can be due to not being in the right position aswell.

The service he recieved last night did nothing for him so it is still much to early to abandon the idea of having him there.

agree, as Dr said, we can't expect to bomb the ball in long and expect him to take the big mark. Will has to learn to also lead out.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Will played well against a quality fullback in what was his first senior game since being moved to full forward. He has the power and size to crash packs, (almost took a screamer) and his kicking looks better. His hands are still a little shaky but that can be due to not being in the right position aswell.

The service he recieved last night did nothing for him so it is still much to early to abandon the idea of having him there.

Good post Wimbegra - his performance obviously had a few holes in it, and as Dry Rot pointed out he was caught behind too often, but in a game where the side struggled, and the delivery was pretty woeful, combined with the fact it was his first game of AFL footy in 9 months then it was a start that can be built on

[Cookie]

Im gonna get slaughtered for this.

I would rather see the freak Street play at full forward, from the comments in our rnd 2 NAB cup game he is and awesome set shot plus he is unco enough to bring it to ground for the likes of Johnno Aka Higgo and the crumbers, Minson i love the man but the only positive thing i keep hearing about him is he is smart and knows like 4 languages only game he played well was the Darcy 6 goal game in 2005

I'm almost with you on this. To be brutal, Minson can't play. He reminds me very much of an Under 10 player who gets the ball and gets rid of it as soon as humanly possible. He can't mark overhead. He has poor skills with both hands and feet. He has no opposite side. For him to be a FF is analogous with making strawberry jam out of pig shit. To be anything, he has to ruck. He has age on his side to develop to become serviceable to the team in that role.

Last year I would have said Tiller was a better option for FF. He did show something in the limited opportunities he was given. He lead, marked and kicked well. With Welsh's arrival and if Welsh gets form and consistency, Tiller may struggle to get a game.

Overall, we have too many "ifs" at play. Just as well we have Johhno.

[hujsh]

Overall, we have too many "ifs" at play. Just as well we have Johhno.

If it looks like we'll miss the finals i'd like to see Johnson moved so we can see if someone can stand up with him out

[always right]

Will played well against a quality fullback in what was his first senior game since being moved to full forward. He has the power and size to crash packs, (almost took a screamer) and his kicking looks better. His hands are still a little shaky but that can be due to not being in the right position aswell.

The service he recieved last night did nothing for him so it is still much to early to abandon the idea of having him there.

I love big Will but I think I must have been getting acup of coffee when he took that screamer.:rolleyes:

[Bulldog Revolution]

I'm almost with you on this. To be brutal, Minson can't play. He reminds me very much of an Under 10 player who gets the ball and gets rid of it as soon as humanly possible. He can't mark overhead. He has poor skills with both hands and feet. He has no opposite side. For him to be a FF is analogous with making strawberry jam out of pig shit. To be anything, he has to ruck. He has age on his side to develop to become serviceable to the team in that role.

Last year I would have said Tiller was a better option for FF. He did show something in the limited opportunities he was given. He lead, marked and kicked well. With Welsh's arrival and if Welsh gets form and consistency, Tiller may struggle to get a game.

Overall, we have too many "ifs" at play. Just as well we have Johhno.

Cookie - to say Minson cant play is just too much of a knee jerk reaction and wrong.

The guy hadn't played in 7+ months and has never in his time with us spent four quarters as a key position forward. Its not going to happen overnight but the club needs him to learn a new role so thats what he's attempting to do.

Now he does have some weaknesses, and his hands and skills will have to improve but to just sink the boot is uncalled for.

It takes all types in a team for it to win. In every recent premiership side there are guys who are uncut diamonds, more brute strength than skill, more desperation than finesse.

[wimberga]

I'm almost with you on this. To be brutal, Minson can't play. He reminds me very much of an Under 10 player who gets the ball and gets rid of it as soon as humanly possible. He can't mark overhead. He has poor skills with both hands and feet. He has no opposite side. For him to be a FF is analogous with making strawberry jam out of pig shit. To be anything, he has to ruck. He has age on his side to develop to become serviceable to the team in that role.

Last year I would have said Tiller was a better option for FF. He did show something in the limited opportunities he was given. He lead, marked and kicked well. With Welsh's arrival and if Welsh gets form and consistency, Tiller may struggle to get a game.

Overall, we have too many "ifs" at play. Just as well we have Johhno.

Agree with Bulldog Revolution - Cookie, saying that Minson cannot play is rediculous. Scott West is a Champion of the club, no-one would argue against that, but he has no pace and struggles to kick a ball straight. Robert Murphy is generally our CHF or CHB option, with zero size. Johnno is our leading forward, with no height.

Every player needs to play to there strengths. Westy uses his superb vision, fitness and handballing skills. Murphy uses his silky skills and Johnno uses his speed and awesome marking ability.

If we look what Will Minson has against him, he is slow, sluggish and has question marks over his marking/kicking.

What he has going for him is awesome size, strength and time on his side. I mean he was holding off Mal Michael which is no mean feat.

Just give the guy a chance, in the scheme of things it may be well worth it.

[LostDoggy]

Agree with Bulldog Revolution - Cookie, saying that Minson cannot play is rediculous. Scott West is a Champion of the club, no-one would argue against that, but he has no pace and struggles to kick a ball straight. Robert Murphy is generally our CHF or CHB option, with zero size. Johnno is our leading forward, with no height.

Every player needs to play to there strengths. Westy uses his superb vision, fitness and handballing skills. Murphy uses his silky skills and Johnno uses his speed and awesome marking ability.

If we look what Will Minson has against him, he is slow, sluggish and has question marks over his marking/kicking.

What he has going for him is awesome size, strength and time on his side. I mean he was holding off Mal Michael which is no mean feat.

Just give the guy a chance, in the scheme of things it may be well worth it.

Agree Wimberga,

I think we need to consider that playing to a new plan that a lot of the guys arent used to.
A lot of posters commented that the old game plan didnt work, so at least something different is being tried.
Rocket said during the trade period that we werent able to get a tall forward from another club, so we are left with what we have, until Jarrad Grant comes on.
Has the game plan been changed with an eye to the future? I think so.
In seasons to come it will be Grant as the main man in the forward line and Will as the 2nd tall. If that is the case, it is better to play to a style and structure that will suit that.
I agree that last night wasnt very encouraging for us all, but we should at least give it a chance to work.
Better it happen in the NAB cup than in the season proper.

[hujsh]

Agree Wimberga,

I think we need to consider that playing to a new plan that a lot of the guys arent used to.
A lot of posters commented that the old game plan didnt work, so at least something different is being tried.
Rocket said during the trade period that we werent able to get a tall forward from another club, so we are left with what we have, until Jarrad Grant comes on.
Has the game plan been changed with an eye to the future? I think so.
In seasons to come it will be Grant as the main man in the forward line and Will as the 2nd tall. If that is the case, it is better to play to a style and structure that will suit that.
I agree that last night wasnt very encouraging for us all, but we should at least give it a chance to work.
Better it happen in the NAB cup than in the season proper.

You do realize it won't just happen like that. It's about whether he personally has it in him to work hard enough. Although i hope with Everitt at his side it is rather likely

[wimberga]

Hujsh, im sure EVERY doggies supporter realises that talls dont just come on ;)

I think BB is just making the point that we are building a plan for the future and Grant is obviously going to be part of that vision.

[hujsh]

Hujsh, im sure EVERY doggies supporter realises that talls dont just come on ;)

I think BB is just making the point that we are building a plan for the future and Grant is obviously going to be part of that vision.

Fair point. I wouldn't blame someone for thinking he could just happen. It's bloody exciting!

[Go_Dogs]

I feel we have to persist with Minson at full forward. He has the size, strength and for a bloke his size, reasonable mobility. All we should be expecting of Will at this stage is to provide a contest in those situations where the ball is bombed into the forward line, and providing the occasional lead and mark. He has proven he can do this in the past in brief patches, although without setting the world on fire. For mine though, he's the most likely to make a reasonable crack at it this year, and we just need to be patient.

[dog town]

Minson and Wight are both learning new roles and it is too early to be overly critical of them. The way they have applied themselves and the way they have attacked the footy could not have been better so that is encouraging. Minson actually looked quite good at times but lacked a little bit of polish and confidence to top off his game.

It seems that we have adopted a bit of North's long kicking game and we are getting the ball in quickly and long. I dont neccesarily agree with that style but if we are going to play that style then I think our biggest concern is finding some crumbers to feed off Minson and co. In both games so far we have been murdered at the fall of the ball in our forward line. It is not something we have a natural abundance of because of the precision passing style we have previously played with. Aker, Coons and Higgins are proven crumbers around goal but two of them are needed further up the ground and one of them is still a child. I really believe that this could be a major issue for us if we continue with this modified game plan. It may also be a case of the players still adapting to it and not quite getting to the right spots just yet.

[bornadog]

What did everyone think of Minson up forward?

Were there some good signs and he just has a lot of learning to do or is the experiment a risky one?

Where will Minson play in 2009? I think he will still have stints up forward but as Grant, Cordy etc start to learn the game, Minson may end up purely as an interchange player, rotating with Hudson.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Where will Minson play in 2009? I think he will still have stints up forward but as Grant, Cordy etc start to learn the game, Minson may end up purely as an interchange player, rotating with Hudson.

His role will stay exactly as it is until Hudson retires and Minson takes over as no. 1 ruckman (at least until Cordy or Roughead take his spot).

[bornadog]

His role will stay exactly as it is until Hudson retires and Minson takes over as no. 1 ruckman (at least until Cordy or Roughead take his spot).

I tend to agree, however, its not ideal. We need him and Hudson to take more contested marks, whether up forward or around the ground

[The Pie Man]

I tend to agree, however, its not ideal. We need him and Hudson to take more contested marks, whether up forward or around the ground

Which is why I'm starting to think he may struggle to make it as a consistent senior player. Maybe tradebait if both Cordy & Roughead come on well in 2 years. I love him though, not easy to write. Needs the mits working overhead to succeed

[Bulldog Revolution]

Minson should feel a bit more at home in the forward line this year and hopefully will play better as a result of last years experience

[Desipura]

Minson should feel a bit more at home in the forward line this year and hopefully will play better as a result of last years experience
Too much of a one trick pony for my liking (contested marks) and does not take enough of them. Does not have the agility to get away from his opponent and take a mark on a lead.

A true forward can take contested and uncontested marks and when they are struggling they lead long and hard to try and get into the play. Minson when he is struggling in the fwd line, either goes in the ruck or is benched.

I hope I am wrong however I cannot see how he can dramatically improve his forward work. He does not have an appetite for goals, he may be able to clear the path for others to get into the play ie Welsh, Johnno and possibly Grant.
You can only do so much with the ability you have been given.

I hope he has improved his stamina so he can ruck more than 10 minutes at a time as his grunt work is very good as shown in the final against Sydney.

[LostDoggy]

Shame Skipper is injured. He is Grant's height, heavier, has sharper reaction times & can take contested marks.
Skipper is also quite aggresive these days - would be interesting to see how pre-season set-ups would work fit Skipper.

The fact they gave Skipper another contract makes me think he fits in the plan somewhere??

I always thought he could have a shot at FF but just needed the confidence.
He'd got plenty of others knocking on the door now so if he can't pull his finger out in 2009 he's GAWN.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The fact they gave Skipper another contract makes me think he fits in the plan somewhere??

I always thought he could have a shot at FF but just needed the confidence.
He'd got plenty of others knocking on the door now so if he can't pull his finger out in 2009 he's GAWN.

Skipper was simply retained for back up. If one of Hudson/Minson are struck with injury, Skipper can fill a role. Cordy, Roughead, Mulligan & Shaw were never going to be ready for '09, so it was a sensible move by the club to keep him on the list for another season.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Skipper was simply retained for back up. If one of Hudson/Minson are struck with injury, Skipper can fill a role. Cordy, Roughead, Mulligan & Shaw were never going to be ready for '09, so it was a sensible move by the club to keep him on the list for another season.

We had a straight choice - Skipper or Street as back up.

[bornadog]

I thought Minson had a great second half of the season especially in the ruck, and in fact played really well in the finals. Too bad he missed a couple of easy goals against the Cats, as the result may very well have been different.

[MrMahatma]

I thought it was OK - but if you look at the numbers - 20 odd goals from a ruckman changing through FF and also on the bench, you'd take it. If he was 100% FF that would've been around the 40+ goals. Not bad really.

[Go_Dogs]

I thought it was OK - but if you look at the numbers - 20 odd goals from a ruckman changing through FF and also on the bench, you'd take it. If he was 100% FF that would've been around the 40+ goals. Not bad really.

I'm not sure on the actual numbers, but he would have been one of the highest goal scoring rucks for the season I imagine.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Too much of a one trick pony for my liking (contested marks) and does not take enough of them. Does not have the agility to get away from his opponent and take a mark on a lead.

A true forward can take contested and uncontested marks and when they are struggling they lead long and hard to try and get into the play. Minson when he is struggling in the fwd line, either goes in the ruck or is benched.

I hope I am wrong however I cannot see how he can dramatically improve his forward work. He does not have an appetite for goals, he may be able to clear the path for others to get into the play ie Welsh, Johnno and possibly Grant.
You can only do so much with the ability you have been given.

I hope he has improved his stamina so he can ruck more than 10 minutes at a time as his grunt work is very good as shown in the final against Sydney.

For many of the points you make I view his forward work as having enormous scope for improvement.

His contested marking can clearly improve and his conversion rate around goal. I think he did start to get a little more of the ball on the lead but thats another area he can improve. If I remember correctly he took a nice mark out in front of his face on the lead against Geelong in the prelim.

He's never going to be our go to forward, but he can still be part of the solution.

To develop the key forwards our side lacks we are going to have to blood players. I view Minson as having been blooded as a key forward in 2008. It was really the first time he was played as a forward for any length of time. He's still a work in progress but I'm hopefully he will have some more dominant games in 09

[Desipura]

For many of the points you make I view his forward work as having enormous scope for improvement.

His contested marking can clearly improve and his conversion rate around goal. I think he did start to get a little more of the ball on the lead but thats another area he can improve. If I remember correctly he took a nice mark out in front of his face on the lead against Geelong in the prelim.

He's never going to be our go to forward, but he can still be part of the solution.

To develop the key forwards our side lacks we are going to have to blood players. I view Minson as having been blooded as a key forward in 2008. It was really the first time he was played as a forward for any length of time. He's still a work in progress but I'm hopefully he will have some more dominant games in 09

He also played as a forward in 2007.

[soupman]

He also played as a forward in 2007.

I don't think he did. He spent almost the entire year in the reserves, and even if he did go forward it was brief and he was probably underprepared. In 2007 he was considered a ruckman. In 2008 he was considered a ruckman who could have an impact up forward.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

For many of the points you make I view his forward work as having enormous scope for improvement.

His contested marking can clearly improve and his conversion rate around goal. I think he did start to get a little more of the ball on the lead but thats another area he can improve. If I remember correctly he took a nice mark out in front of his face on the lead against Geelong in the prelim.

He's never going to be our go to forward, but he can still be part of the solution.

To develop the key forwards our side lacks we are going to have to blood players. I view Minson as having been blooded as a key forward in 2008. It was really the first time he was played as a forward for any length of time. He's still a work in progress but I'm hopefully he will have some more dominant games in 09

Good post, and I agree.

It takes time for players to adjust to new roles, and whilst Minson won't ever kick 40+ goals in a season, he won't always need to. The thing is, in the first half of the year when we had only lost one game, Minson was absolutely terrific up forward. No - he didn't kick bags of goals, but his contesting was brilliant. His deft little tap ons, bringing the ball to the front of the contest etc. really did help us. People seem to over look this.

Prior to '08, how many times did we see an opposition defender take relatively uncontested marks? ALL the time.

Minson really did cut out a lot of this though, simply by contesting, and that meant a lot of opportunity for Aker, Hahn, Harbrow, Gia etc. Unfortunately he faded in the second half of the year, but who didn't?

No doubt Minson needs to improve, but I'm sure he will, as explained above. Even when Grant comes along, Minson's spot will be safe. Grant looks more of a leading type capable of taking strong pack marks. Minson would still play as the 'get out clause', which is all he's really needed for. IF/When Cordy can play senior football, Minson may just become a full time ruckman, but for now his spot is safe so long as he continues to improve and considering last year was his first a KPF, you'd think he will.