Hawthorn

[GVGjr]

From the HUN

Eight reasons to be excited about Hawthorn in 2020

A Brownlow Medallist returns, a bargain recruit joins the attack and there’s a heap of experience. But perhaps the man in the coaching box is the biggest reason why Hawks fan should be excited this year.

1. SO CLOSE

The Hawks weren’t exactly far off featuring in finals last season. They finished ninth on the ladder, just one game adrift of eight-placed Essendon. It was just the second time in 10 years the Hawks had missed out on September action and they are determined to get back there in 2020. With a strong mix of experienced heads and talented youth — led by master coach Alastair Clarkson — the side looks well placed to return to the top-eight. Internally, the feeling at Waverley Park is that a lot of upside across a lot of different areas.

2. MITCHELL RETURN

The Hawks boast arguably the biggest virtual recruit in the competition in 2020 — midfielder Tom Mitchell. The 2018 Brownlow Medal winner missed the entire 2019 season after suffering a horrific broken leg at training last January. While there are not yet any guarantees that he will be ready for Round 1, that is the goal as Mitchell’s training program gradually builds. The 26-year-old broke the record for the most disposals in a season in 2018 with 848 at an average of 35.3. He also led the league for clearances that season, averaging eight a game. If Mitchell can return to fitness and somewhere near the lofty bar he set himself in 2018, Hawthorn will be thrilled.

3. THE GENERAL

He was the No. 1 draft pick in 2011 and Jonathon ‘The General’ Patton is set to be the No. 1 man in the Hawthorn forward line next season. Patton was the Hawks’ big recruit during the trade period after eight seasons with Greater Western Sydney and will slot straight in to centre-half forward. The 26-year-old has not played a game since Round 15, 2018 due to back-to-back anterior cruciate ligament tears. However, he kicked 38 goals in 2016 and 45 goals in 2017 as he emerged as one of the star key forwards in the competition. Patton arrived at Hawthorn in good shape after being in full training at the Giants for the last month of last season. The Hawks are confident Patton’s best football is still ahead of him.

4. MORE WINGARD

Former Port Adelaide forward Chad Wingard’s start to life at Hawthorn last season didn’t exactly go to script. He missed the opening two rounds with a calf injury and went on to be sidelined for a further six games mid-season due to injury. But Wingard’s last seven games of the year certainly excited the Hawks and coach Alastair Clarkson, giving a glimpse of what the 26-year-old is capable of achieving in 2020. Wingard averaged 23.3 disposals, 6.1 inside-50s, 4.4 clearances, 7.0 score involvements and 87 SuperCoach ranking points across those final seven games playing both through the midfield and as a small forward. With a full pre-season under his belt, the Hawks think Wingard is more than capable of being an All-Australian for the third time in 2020.

5. BRILLIANT BURGOYNE

At age 37, Shaun Burgoyne is the oldest player on an AFL list next season. But the man they call ‘Silk’ still has his touch. Burgoyne played 18 games last season, averaging 16.2 disposals and 77 SuperCoach ranking points primarily playing across halfback. What makes 2020 exciting for Hawks fans is that he is poised to further lift his name in the record books. Currently sitting seventh on the all-time games played list with 376 outings under his belt, Burgoyne needs just eight more games to overtake St Kilda legend Robert Harvey and climb into the top-five on that list. If he were to play every home-and-away game and at least two finals, Burgoyne would become just the fifth player in history to reach 400 games. That would be a feat worth celebrating.

6. FAMILY TIES

The Hawks snagged two top-30 picks in November’s national draft, both of whom have family connections to the club. Will Day was taken at pick 13 and is the grandson of Robert Day, who played 38 games for Hawthorn including the 1971 premiership. Finn Maginness was taken at pick 29 and is the son of two-time Hawks premiership player Scott Maginness. As two highly-touted juniors, both could well feature at senior level at some stage next season. Day is an attacking halfback who is a strong kick on either side of his body while Maginness is consistent ball-winning midfielder who can also push forward.

7. EXPERIENCED LIST

While Shaun Burgoyne skews the figures a little, Hawthorn boasts both the oldest and most experienced playing list entering 2020. The Hawks will start next season with an average list age of 24.9 years, with those players having lined up in an average of 80.4 games each. That suggests Alastair Clarkson’s side should be ready to challenge for a top-eight spot once again. Youth and inexperience will be no excuse.

8. ROUGHEAD REPLACEMENT

Four-time premiership hero Jarryd Roughead has hung up the boots, but the Hawks hold high hopes that 198cm key forward Mitchell Lewis will soon fill his sizeable shoes. A Rising Star nominee last season, Lewis has played just 14 senior games in three years. However, he showed plenty of promise last season to average 11.5 disposals, 4.7 marks, 5.2 score involvements and kick 20 goals from 12 matches. The Hawks will be hoping the 21-year-old can take further strides forward in 2020 and have handed him Roughead’s old No. 2 jumper in a show of faith. Selected at pick 76 in the 2016 national draft, Lewis is shaping as a genuine steal.

[GVGjr]

Is there a reason why so many in the media and Hawthorn supports think they will be a top 6 team in 2020?

[Twodogs]

Is there a reason why so many in the media and Hawthorn supports think they will be a top 6 team in 2020?

They have some pretty handy talent to come back into the team this year with Mitchell and Patton, and O' Meara set to improve.


And the Al Clarkson factor.

[azabob]

They have some pretty handy talent to come back into the team this year with Mitchell and Patton, and O' Meara set to improve.


And the Al Clarkson factor.

Mitchell and Patton have been out with very significant injuries and may not get going to the second half of the season, and perhaps not till 2021. Patton may never get back to his best.

Al Clarkson and O'Meara on the other hand.

[comrade]

I’d love to see Hawthorn’s trade heavy approach fall flat on its arse as they wallow in the bottom 8 for the next decade but I can’t see it happening. They seem to always attract key players for unders and their system allows for unrated draftees to come in and flourish (Worpel, Sicily etc).

[Twodogs]

Mitchell and Patton have been out with very significant injuries and may not get going to the second half of the season, and perhaps not till 2021. Patton may never get back to his best.

Al Clarkson and O'Meara on the other hand.

And the kiddy from Melbourne via GWS, number one draft pick but I just can't remember his name-his dad is in recruiting. Should have got a 50 metre penalty in the prelim when JJ ran into the protected zone but the umpire didn't feel like getting executed by overexcited bulldog supporters so he didn't blow his whistle.


Would you have done the Patton deal if you were Hawthorn.

[bornadog]

And the kiddy from Melbourne via GWS, number one draft pick but I just can't remember his name-his dad is in recruiting. Should have got a 50 metre penalty in the prelim when JJ ran into the protected zone but the umpire didn't feel like getting executed by overexcited bulldog supporters so he didn't blow his whistle.


Would you have done the Patton deal if you were Hawthorn.

Scully, and yes for Patton deal. Didn't cost them much

[Bulldog Joe]

They have invested heavily in their ability to get players on the park.

They obviously had great success with Burgoyne and seem to believe that they can fix everyone.

Currently have O'Meara, Scully and Patton who have had enough injury concerns (prior to joining Hawks) , to have careers under serious threat. Wingard apparently had some lesser issues at Port Adelaide

They now add Tom Mitchell to that serious injury group and if they all stand up at close to their best footy Hawthorn will contend.

They also have Impey coming back from a knee and likely to play late in the season.

That means there are 5 of their best 22 who have had to contend with pretty serious long term injury.

[bornadog]

They have invested heavily in their ability to get players on the park.

They obviously had great success with Burgoyne and seem to believe that they can fix everyone.

Currently have O'Meara, Scully and Patton who have had enough injury concerns (prior to joining Hawks) , to have careers under serious threat. Wingard apparently had some lesser issues at Port Adelaide

They now add Tom Mitchell to that serious injury group and if they all stand up at close to their best footy Hawthorn will contend.

They also have Impey coming back from a knee and likely to play late in the season.

That means there are 5 of their best 22 who have had to contend with pretty serious long term injury.

They also have 7 players over 30 years old, and 5 over 28.

I can't see them contending.

[ledge]

I think they will drop away due to age and injury.
I also get the feeling Clarkson will change clubs soon because he will be approached by clubs like Melbourne, Carlton or even the Bombers and see it as a challenge.

[soupman]

I'm torn. I am a big believer that draft picks are severely overrated and the trading policy Hawthorn have adopted, whilst a bit more heavy handed than what I'd prefer, would vindicate my opinion if it proved successful.

On the flipside, I dislike Hawthorn. I don't like half the players they have targeted, and i would love to see their trade policy backfire on them.

Also if Patton is any better than 2018 Redpath then I'll be amazed. He was struggling before his most recent ACL and has no versatility. Mitch Lewis and Worpel though are worth getting excited about though.

[GVGjr]

I'm torn. I am a big believer that draft picks are severely overrated and the trading policy Hawthorn have adopted, whilst a bit more heavy handed than what I'd prefer, would vindicate my opinion if it proved successful.

On the flipside, I dislike Hawthorn. I don't like half the players they have targeted, and i would love to see their trade policy backfire on them.

Also if Patton is any better than 2018 Redpath then I'll be amazed. He was struggling before his most recent ACL and has no versatility. Mitch Lewis and Worpel though are worth getting excited about though.

I think the one thing that the Hawks do better than most is extract value from their late order draft picks
Their ability to target established players has been pretty effective as well and to top it off they have a great coach

I'm not sure they can perform as well as some in the media expect but they may be just a bit harder to beat than many expected

[Remi Moses]

Don’t seem them contending but I can see them pushing for the eight.
Not sure how the much vaunted Hawthorn medical team are going to improve Patton’s movement after that many knee recos.
Nor prevent another one occurring
Lewis looks a real prospect , and Mitchell returning is huge obviously

[Go_Dogs]

Hawthorn will be around the mark, with injuries and returning players dictating just how far they can go.

Their midfield has quality and depth, they have enough players who can impact the scoreboard. I'm not convinced on their key position stocks, but will be interest to see how Patton performs.

[GVGjr]

Hawthorn will be around the mark, with injuries and returning players dictating just how far they can go.

Their midfield has quality and depth, they have enough players who can impact the scoreboard. I'm not convinced on their key position stocks, but will be interest to see how Patton performs.

It might come down to how much they get from Wingard who I think many would have regarded as an under performed star.
Impey also didn't play well and there will be high expectations on Mitchell getting close to his brownlow medal form.
They had issues with their key defenders in 2019 and went out and addressed it as a priority
Sam Frost might be a decent addition for them as he is athletic enough along with Michael Hartley so the Hawks have done what they typically do well by adding depth to their defence without spending much at all plus Jacob Koschitzke missed the season due to injury and will be around the mark this season. That's 3 KP options to go along with Frawley which probably means Sicily can be used in more attacking roles. They're not scared to carry a couple of additional talls because they know they are required.

The quality is there as well, Breust, Smith, Burgoyne, Worpel and O'Meara. If they fix their forward line and extract maximum performances from Breust, Gunston and Smith they might trouble some sides

[AshMac]

And the kiddy from Melbourne via GWS, number one draft pick but I just can't remember his name-his dad is in recruiting. Should have got a 50 metre penalty in the prelim when JJ ran into the protected zone but the umpire didn't feel like getting executed by overexcited bulldog supporters so he didn't blow his whistle.


Would you have done the Patton deal if you were Hawthorn.

Whoever he is, he couldn’t have been worth more compensation than Cal Ward, their captain and best player during their first years...

[Twodogs]

Whoever he is, he couldn’t have been worth more compensation than Cal Ward, their captain and best player during their first years...

Is it Colin Sylvia?

[mjp]

Impey also didn't play well and there will be high expectations on Mitchell getting close to his brownlow medal form.


Impey WAS playing well.

But a torn ACL put paid to that! Not sure he will play in 2020.

[Bulldog4life]

Alastair Clarkson has long been the trendsetting coach in AFL circles and the man in charge of the Hawks looks like he’s adding a giant change again in 2020 according to Essendon great Tim Watson.

“I was told very early in the piece that Hawthorn were probably going to play a different brand of football this year, they had sped everything up,” Watson said on SEN Breakfast.

“This was according to a track watcher — my track watcher. He goes out and watches the clubs for me and he came back and he came back to me and said Hawthorn is going to play fast in 2020. Alastair Clarkson has just turned this thing on its ear.”

Hawthorn took on the Saints in the opening Marsh Community Series contest, going down by 21 points. But the stats prove Watson’s theory.

“How they played against St Kilda, you’re absolutely on the money here,” Champion Data analyst Daniel Hoyne said.

“We have to be a little bit cautious as it is one Marsh Series game, but there has been evidence over time that when a team significantly changes what they’re doing in the Marsh Series compared to the year before, that actually goes through to the actual season.

“This was an extreme (change). If we had a look at what Hawthorn did against St Kilda on the weekend, they went through the corridor when exiting (defensive) 50, 46 per cent of the time compared to last year 16 per cent.

“Their mark and play on rate was 41 per cent. Last year it was 31 per cent.

“They’re extreme numbers from one sample. It will be really interesting to see what they do in their next Marsh Series game.

“That is something to actually take notice of.”

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/afl-briefs-koch-ramps-up-hinkley-pressure-hawks-new-major-change/news-story/b322431d3331c866b91ccbe1890d4070

[Mofra]

They don't quite have the same footskills of a few years ago to play 'keepings off' but do have genuinely big forwards to kick the ball to.
It sounds like a simple case of 'playing to your strengths' which is far better than 'send years moulding a list to a preconceived game style that may no longer be relevant when that transition is complete'.

[Bulldog Joe]

They don't quite have the same footskills of a few years ago to play 'keepings off' but do have genuinely big forwards to kick the ball to.
It sounds like a simple case of 'playing to your strengths' which is far better than 'send years moulding a list to a preconceived game style that may no longer be relevant when that transition is complete'.

I agree with this.

There ball winners in Mitchell and Worpel are simply not precise users. With big guys forward they will need to be taking quite a few marks. I see Patton, Lewis and O'Brien as making them quite top heavy.

They are likely to be conceding a few rebound scores.

[Mofra]

I agree with this.

There ball winners in Mitchell and Worpel are simply not precise users. With big guys forward they will need to be taking quite a few marks. I see Patton, Lewis and O'Brien as making them quite top heavy.

They are likely to be conceding a few rebound scores.
That could be the case. I expect Gunston will be important for them this year as when he plays as the 3rd or 4th forward he's a 50 goal per year guy.

They will be pretty big in the back half too - McEvoy is a lock, Frawley still going and Frost is quick and is earmarked for a spot to allow Sicily (who can play taller than his height) free reign to rebound. I suspect Stratton plays lockdown on the most dangerous mid sizer.

Somehow they've cobbled together an effective midfield group with Mitchell, Worpel and O'Meara leading an on-ball brigade, Smith and Henderson running the wings and Wingard s first rotation.

[GVGjr]

Hawks must reinvent as key decisions loom (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hawks-must-reinvent-as-key-decisions-loom-20210122-p56w3a.html)

All of a sudden, Hawthorn, the club that declared in 2017 they aimed to win two flags before 2022 and another seven by 2050, have plenty on their plate.

They need to appoint a new football manager to replace Graham Wright and a new skipper to replace Ben Stratton, the Tasmanian deal has become a political football and the ambitious Dingley relocation needs a rethink.

And then there is the question of the coach as he enters his 17th season in charge.

Although four-time premiership coach Alastair Clarkson is locked in until the end of 2022, what decision is made on his future at the end of this year is uncertain, as potential successor Sam Mitchell heads out to Box Hill to coach his own team in his own way.

That's not to mention the allegations levelled at Jonathon Patton as the Hawks finally start assembling a playing list geared towards a new era through the draft.

After being the dominant team in the three-peat of 2013-15, when they produced 29 premiership players, 2020 brought an internal realisation that golden era had passed.

Some of last year’s performances (the biggest losing margin after relocation was surprisingly just six goals) were due to the horror draw the Hawks were handed. They became unmoored from the rest of the competition in a hub in South Australia, having decided to stay there on the basis they would eventually play in Tasmania.

With a 40-minute drive to training from their base in the Barossa and an hour's drive to games in Adelaide, they missed out on the shared experience – for better or worse – nine Victorian teams were having in sunny Queensland.

Although Clarkson is a genius coach, spending 100 consecutive days in close proximity to him as the team struggles wasn’t ideal either, with the 52-year-old unable to decompress at his property on the peninsula as he likes to do in more normal times. They were a happy team at Hawthorn when the season finished.

After 13 successful years with the Hawks, club sources said Wright had spent much of 2020 contemplating whether the time had arrived for him to move on from the environment he played such a part in shaping, with the club asking him to spend the Christmas break considering whether his decision was final.

As Wright made his call, the Magpies began to enquire whether the club he played for could provide the fresh start he wanted. The planets aligned and he made the move.

His departure meant that all of Clarkson’s key support people during his time at the club, bar a doctor and a physiotherapist, departed for elsewhere as Hawks’ football department personnel became the most sought-after applicants for a range of roles within the industry.

Change has not been unusual over the past decade as the club has been continually forced to rebuild its football program as Damien Hardwick, Leon Cameron, Adam Simpson, Luke Beveridge, Chris Fagan and Brendon Bolton (now returned from Carlton) all swapped a Hawks polo for a senior coaching role at another club. Along the way Andrew Russell, David Rath, Mark Evans, Stuart Dew and an assortment of star players moved on. At the end of last season key off-field personnel Scott Burns and Adem Yze found joined other clubs while Damian Carroll went to the Magpies after being stood down.

Football director Richie Vandenberg, CEO Justin Reeves and another board member will be on the panel to select Wright’s replacement with the key role being filled on an interim basis by the respected Rob McCartney, an old teaching friend of Clarkson who a club source said would be a popular appointment among the players if chosen.

The field should be strong but all applicants will need to consider whether they are up for a decision on the coach, which sources say will not come to a head until the end of this year when the Hawks will begin to consider properly whether to extend Clarkson or look to make a fresh start beyond the pre-eminent coach of his generation.

The veteran still has the fire in the belly and is making his presence felt on the track more than ever as he returns to hands-on coaching with staff sizes reduced.

Although Mitchell is preparing to become a senior coach, either at Hawthorn or elsewhere, there is no way the club will enter into a public succession plan, aware that they haven't worked elsewhere and that the smaller football department would operate best with one person in the chair.

That reality, as well as the financial drain of the pandemic, has the Hawks facing hard questions around the scope of their Dingley project, although their commitment to relocation from Waverley remains firm.

With a project originally slated as being bigger than Ben Hur the Hawks’ subcommittee, led by director and project management expert Luke Stambolis, will move forward on the community and AFLW component while assessing what the reduced football department and administration need to operate successfully.

The Hawks are also optimistic that the Tasmanian deal will roll on beyond 2022 despite the premier Peter Gutwein's stance this week that they won't be signing any deals until they have a clear commitment from the AFL on what direction the bid for a Tasmanian AFL team is heading.

Hawthorn’s position has been consistent, saying they will continue to operate in Tasmania but respect the process in place, which lost some momentum when COVID-19 struck, that could lead to Tasmania fielding their own team.

Of course, off-field decision-making has been a strength – they have moved quickly when required to fix bad decisions – which is why they have a large supporter base that trusts the hierarchy. Although club president Jeff Kennett’s forays into political commentary are not always popular internally, he has a strong command of the board and club governance.

The Hawks are at a crossroad, having delayed mining the draft for talent for a couple of years longer than was wise once they dropped out in 2016 – expending capital on Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O’Meara and Chad Wingard – and they are no longer the destination club they once were.

Their attempt to reignite the careers of injured or out-of-favour players from other clubs has failed overall, with the delicate investigation into Patton making supporters question that approach.

The events of 2020 have made it clear where they sit, with the club having finished 15th for the first time since the year before Clarkson took over in 2005. Another reinvention is required at the Hawks.

[GVGjr]

They've got some work to do and the optimism many in the media had about them 12 months ago has gone
It will be interesting to see if Clarkson goes past this year with them

[bornadog]

I am hoping they have a long sustained position near the bottom of the ladder.

[jeemak]

I'm actually wondering whether we're seeing the birth of the modern day 1980s through 2000s Richmond, but with different demographics when it comes to the Hawks.

You know, instead of being inner suburban working class types forming an army after substantial success and becoming feral when that success was taken away from them, you have entitled middle ring and outer suburban bogans doing the same but at a different time. Hawthorn nearly died a bit over two decades ago, and that was after sustained success where they were unstoppable but full of hubris.........what about their recent actions suggests to you they're not still full of hubris? Or that their fans aren't either?

In addition to their current drop, the game has changed. COVID has unearthed the frailty of their revenue streams, they are definitely going to lose Tasmania within five years (maybe sooner) and they have a political shit storm between Kennett and Clarkson brewing that will only result in one or neither of the two standing. If they can't win a game amongst all of this their fans will desert them just like they did after 1991.

It will only take a slight rise in form from Carlton or a further one from St Kilda/ Melbourne/ Bulldogs to put real pressure on the Hawks for exposure. Once they're down I can see them being down for a while, because with all the factors above and with their younger supporters having no idea what it's like NOT to have success they'll struggle to sell a vision or narrative.

[jeemak]

I mean they didn't trade Wingard this most recent trade period. What about Wingard says rebuilding from 15th on the ladder when he can deliver a top end draft pick and a second rounder in a rebuild phase?

[Twodogs]

I'm actually wondering whether we're seeing the birth of the modern day 1980s through 2000s Richmond, but with different demographics when it comes to the Hawks.

You know, instead of being inner suburban working class types forming an army after substantial success and becoming feral when that success was taken away from them, you have entitled middle ring and outer suburban bogans doing the same but at a different time. Hawthorn nearly died a bit over two decades ago, and that was after sustained success where they were unstoppable but full of hubris.........what about their recent actions suggests to you they're not still full of hubris? Or that their fans aren't either?

In addition to their current drop, the game has changed. COVID has unearthed the frailty of their revenue streams, they are definitely going to lose Tasmania within five years (maybe sooner) and they have a political shit storm between Kennett and Clarkson brewing that will only result in one or neither of the two standing. If they can't win a game amongst all of this their fans will desert them just like they did after 1991.

It will only take a slight rise in form from Carlton or a further one from St Kilda/ Melbourne/ Bulldogs to put real pressure on the Hawks for exposure. Once they're down I can see them being down for a while, because with all the factors above and with their younger supporters having no idea what it's like NOT to have success they'll struggle to sell a vision or narrative.

Really good assessment Jee. I'm really keen to see how the dynamic between Kennett and Clarkson plays out. Kennett isn't exactly a team player and has a pretty high opinion of himself, and Clarkson isn't keen on taking criticism from anyone. It might get interesting in the Chinese definition of the word.

[Rocket Science]

Appears Scully lost the appetite to ride a rebuild (https://www.afl.com.au/news/544934/retirement-bombshell-former-no-1-quits-hawks-in-shock-call).

As an aside, the McEvoy appointment has strong Richie Vandenberg as skipper vibes.

She's gonna be a long road back for the Hawkers and I can't wait to begin hearing about their president's opinions on it.

[EasternWest]

She's gonna be a long road back for the Hawkers and I can't wait to begin hearing about their president's opinions on it.

I don't ever want to hear anything from their president about anything, ever.

[Axe Man]

Appears Scully lost the appetite to ride a rebuild (https://www.afl.com.au/news/544934/retirement-bombshell-former-no-1-quits-hawks-in-shock-call).

As an aside, the McEvoy appointment has strong Richie Vandenberg as skipper vibes.

She's gonna be a long road back for the Hawkers and I can't wait to begin hearing about their president's opinions on it.

I heard a theory that McEvoy is just keeping the seat warm for Sicily to become captain in a year or 2. He must have really matured if he is suddenly captaincy material as he has generally come across as anything but on the field from what I have seen.

[Mofra]

Appears Scully lost the appetite to ride a rebuild (https://www.afl.com.au/news/544934/retirement-bombshell-former-no-1-quits-hawks-in-shock-call).

As an aside, the McEvoy appointment has strong Richie Vandenberg as skipper vibes.

She's gonna be a long road back for the Hawkers and I can't wait to begin hearing about their president's opinions on it.
They've gone hard at trading in players at the expense of high-draft end talent. I'm not sure the mystique of Clarkson will be enough to lure players to the club anymore given they aren't challenging and don't seem like they will be for quite some time.

[Twodogs]

I don't ever want to hear anything from their president about anything, ever.

I've been having fun winding him up on Twitter. It's a hobby of mine.

[mjp]

They've gone hard at trading in players at the expense of high-draft end talent. I'm not sure the mystique of Clarkson will be enough to lure players to the club anymore given they aren't challenging and don't seem like they will be for quite some time.

Can we go with the 'Mystique of luring players to the club?'.

Lost: Buddy.
Gained: Mitchell - massive cost that no-one else would pay, no success since.
Gained: O'Meara - see Mitchell
Gained: Scully - Salary cap dump, no success since
Gained: Gunston - transfer back from interstate...Fair enough
Gained: Dew - Fat, no-one else wanted him.
Gained: Burgoyne - Chronic knees, no-one else wanted him.
Gained: Lake - Club in transition, targeted recruiting...Good Get.
Gained: Frawley - Bottom feeding club in turmoil, good timing (and good get).

Who have I missed? It must be someone...Their success was based on finishing down the bottom and maximising their draft picks - some of that was through Richmond's stupidity...some was our own fixation on Gryphon. Franlin, Roughead + Lewis in one draft? Slam DUNK. Hodge over Ball and Judd? Slam DUNK. Mitchell via the VFL? Slam DUNK. Birchall? Smith? Rioli? All of the cornerstones of the 4-premierships - even going back to Crawford, Bateman et al in 2008 - were drafted by the club.

[Happy Days]

Can we go with the 'Mystique of luring players to the club?'.

Lost: Buddy.
Gained: Mitchell - massive cost that no-one else would pay, no success since.
Gained: O'Meara - see Mitchell
Gained: Scully - Salary cap dump, no success since
Gained: Gunston - transfer back from interstate...Fair enough
Gained: Dew - Fat, no-one else wanted him.
Gained: Burgoyne - Chronic knees, no-one else wanted him.
Gained: Lake - Club in transition, targeted recruiting...Good Get.
Gained: Frawley - Bottom feeding club in turmoil, good timing (and good get).

Who have I missed? It must be someone...Their success was based on finishing down the bottom and maximising their draft picks - some of that was through Richmond's stupidity...some was our own fixation on Gryphon. Franlin, Roughead + Lewis in one draft? Slam DUNK. Hodge over Ball and Judd? Slam DUNK. Mitchell via the VFL? Slam DUNK. Birchall? Smith? Rioli? All of the cornerstones of the 4-premierships - even going back to Crawford, Bateman et al in 2008 - were drafted by the club.

But what about Josh Gibson and Shaun Burgoyne, who Hawthorn will have you believe were the only reason they won all those flags and that they were put into a position to trade for elite talent off the base of a sustained period of successful drafting was totally irrelevant.

[Axe Man]

Patton, Impey, Wingard in recent seasons could be added to the list. McEvoy from further back.

[mjp]

But what about Josh Gibson and Shaun Burgoyne, who Hawthorn will have you believe were the only reason they won all those flags and that they were put into a position to trade for elite talent off the base of a sustained period of successful drafting was totally irrelevant.

I missed Gibson - I had Burgoyne in there.

[mjp]

Patton, Impey, Wingard in recent seasons could be added to the list. McEvoy from further back.

Again though - Wingard, Patton and Impey have led to zero success....

I just think the myth of the Hawks premierships is that it was all about recruiting mature free agents when the reality is it was based on finishing last and getting a really strong draft hand.

[Grantysghost]

Youve forgotten the people's wig.
David Hale.

[Axe Man]

Again though - Wingard, Patton and Impey have led to zero success....

I just think the myth of the Hawks premierships is that it was all about recruiting mature free agents when the reality is it was based on finishing last and getting a really strong draft hand.

I may have misinterpreted the discussion but I didn't see any mention of their premiership success. I took it more as an observation that since then they have consistently traded out draft picks and now they find themselves in a hole.

[Mofra]

Can we go with the 'Mystique of luring players to the club?'.

Lost: Buddy.
Gained: Mitchell - massive cost that no-one else would pay, no success since.
Gained: O'Meara - see Mitchell
Gained: Scully - Salary cap dump, no success since
Gained: Gunston - transfer back from interstate...Fair enough
Gained: Dew - Fat, no-one else wanted him.
Gained: Burgoyne - Chronic knees, no-one else wanted him.
Gained: Lake - Club in transition, targeted recruiting...Good Get.
Gained: Frawley - Bottom feeding club in turmoil, good timing (and good get).

Who have I missed? It must be someone...Their success was based on finishing down the bottom and maximising their draft picks - some of that was through Richmond's stupidity...some was our own fixation on Gryphon. Franlin, Roughead + Lewis in one draft? Slam DUNK. Hodge over Ball and Judd? Slam DUNK. Mitchell via the VFL? Slam DUNK. Birchall? Smith? Rioli? All of the cornerstones of the 4-premierships - even going back to Crawford, Bateman et al in 2008 - were drafted by the club.
Going back 13 years (!) isn't a measure of the state of their current list, which hasn't seen much top-end draft talent in recent times.

I disagree on some of the 'lured' players - Tom Mitchell's performance for what they paid is solid or better, O'Meara they paid through the nose but every Victorian club would have asked the question.
Of the players not mentioned - Impey I liked (we lost out despite being Trengove's best mate!). Frost, Patton & Scrimshaw not so much. Michington as a DFA barely counts.

Let's not forget we went hard at Wingard only to lose out to Hawthorn as well.

In 2019 & 2020 they used first round picks (Day looks good, and DGB was just BOG in their intra-club by all accounts).
Then you have to go back to 2015 before you see another first round pick - Burton at pick 19 who has since left the club.

Edit: Then you have to go back to 2010 for their previous first round pick - Issac Smith at pick 19.

I agree their success was based on draft picks, a strategy they haven't followed in recent years as they went hard at the trade table. I do believe some of those players that have come to the club did sign, in part, due to Clarkson.

[Mofra]

I just think the myth of the Hawks premierships is that it was all about recruiting mature free agents when the reality is it was based on finishing last and getting a really strong draft hand.
True, but that's not the point that was raised here.

[bornadog]

I just think the myth of the Hawks premierships is that it was all about recruiting mature free agents when the reality is it was based on finishing last and getting a really strong draft hand.

I agree


True, but that's not the point that was raised here.

But a bloody good point.

The last few years have been stupidity in trying to get broken down players cheaply and slotting them in - this has lead to no success and now they find themselves in a bind. Wasted 5 years of many draft picks

[Mofra]

The last few years have been stupidity in trying to get broken down players cheaply and slotting them in - this has lead to no success and now they find themselves in a bind. Wasted 5 years of many draft picks
I don't mind using late picks on 'known quantities' if you're taking low risk/high return types.
As per some above posts, Hawthorn basically ignored the first round of the draft for a decade (with the one player taken in an 8 year stretch now at Port). That is unsustainable in the long term.

They're in for a world of pain and it's telling that their three captaincy prospects for 2021 (McEvoy, O'Meara & Mitchell) were trade ins.

[mjp]

I don't mind using late picks on 'known quantities' if you're taking low risk/high return types.



Can you give me an example of where this has ever worked though?

Low risk, high return? As an experienced player? I guess Roughead going to Collingwood? I don't know - late pick I think you almost want the opposite...it's a late pick so take a chance trying something great...I just think selecting foot soldiers late in the draft is so often the same as drafting VFL players.

And then of course there was Daniel Cross (and a heap of others I'm about to have thrown at me) but at least they were kids. I guess that's been my whole objection with the Hannan trade...Low risk, low reward is how I see that one...

[Twodogs]

I don't mind the recruitment of Hannan. At least he kicks straight when he has a shot at goal. 55.30 is a good conversion rate these days.

[Bulldog4life]

Dew was a handy player for Hawthorn in the grand final. Kicked 3 goals from memory and helped them win a premiership.

[jeemak]

Dew was a handy player for Hawthorn in the grand final. Kicked 3 goals from memory and helped them win a premiership.

It looked like it was a bust early as he pinged a hammy in the first few rounds of the season, though as per your comments well worthwhile picking him up.

I think however MJP was referring to him not being on the wish list of any other club. I remember at the time of his last year at Port he was reported to be sitting at ~105kg which is a lot for a six footer (trust me, that's what I'm sitting on now post COVID after which the paddock I was in was named after me)!

[bornadog]

Article here

'We are the Tassie Hawks': Jeff not ruling out move (https://www.afl.com.au/news/548135/-we-are-the-tassie-hawks-jeff-not-ruling-out-move)

If I was a Hawks supporter, I would be livid with the President. I don't understand how Hawthorn got Kennett back to the club.

[bornadog]

Hawks will pay traded stars O’Meara, Mitchell $750,000 in 2023 (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hawks-will-pay-traded-stars-o-meara-mitchell-750-000-in-2023-20221207-p5c4j0.html)

I still don't understand why they wanted to get rid of these blokes?

[GVGjr]

Hawks will pay traded stars O’Meara, Mitchell $750,000 in 2023 (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hawks-will-pay-traded-stars-o-meara-mitchell-750-000-in-2023-20221207-p5c4j0.html)

I still don't understand why they wanted to get rid of these blokes?

They know their position and they are investing in youth.

[MrMahatma]

Hawks will pay traded stars O’Meara, Mitchell $750,000 in 2023 (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hawks-will-pay-traded-stars-o-meara-mitchell-750-000-in-2023-20221207-p5c4j0.html)

I still don't understand why they wanted to get rid of these blokes?

If they're on their list, they'd have to play them (they would be better than the alternatives). So they offloaded them and will get experience into younger guys.

Collingwood got smashed in the media cause of their list management a few years back, but if you look at the Hawks, this is really bad too. Having to pay someone to play elsewhere AND giving them away for pretty crap picks should be a sackable offence for a list manager. Surely a lot has to go wrong for this to occur.

[Bulldog Joe]

Hawks will pay traded stars O’Meara, Mitchell $750,000 in 2023 (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/hawks-will-pay-traded-stars-o-meara-mitchell-750-000-in-2023-20221207-p5c4j0.html)

I still don't understand why they wanted to get rid of these blokes?

Technically we now have Hawthorn funding Adam Treloar to play for us.

[GVGjr]

If they're on their list, they'd have to play them (they would be better than the alternatives). So they offloaded them and will get experience into younger guys.

Collingwood got smashed in the media cause of their list management a few years back, but if you look at the Hawks, this is really bad too. Having to pay someone to play elsewhere AND giving them away for pretty crap picks should be a sackable offence for a list manager. Surely a lot has to go wrong for this to occur.

If Collinwood didn't perform so well they would really be copping it.
It's a bad thing for clubs to be salary cap dumping.

[mjp]

Having to pay someone to play elsewhere AND giving them away for pretty crap picks should be a sackable offence for a list manager. Surely a lot has to go wrong for this to occur.

Not much needs to go wrong.

1/. Clarkson wanted 'young' senior players in the club to replace the premiership stars.
2/. He has reached 'can do whatever he likes status' so the club supported him.
3/. He has now left so time to right the wrongs.

Not sure the list manager can be blamed for any of this...a club putting the wishes of an individual ahead of the long-term future of the footy club to chase a flag? Well, that's fine...but you need to know where your list is at so you know whether 'the chase' is a viable proposition. For the Hawks it wasn't. For the Cats? Well, as it has turned out, it was.

[Mofra]

Not sure the list manager can be blamed for any of this...a club putting the wishes of an individual ahead of the long-term future of the footy club to chase a flag? Well, that's fine...but you need to know where your list is at so you know whether 'the chase' is a viable proposition. For the Hawks it wasn't. For the Cats? Well, as it has turned out, it was.
The Cats had their greatest ever player (Selwood) and their greatest ever goalkicker (Hawkins) and a genuine superstar (Danger) still on their list so they were well placed for another crack at it and were absolutely right to do so.
Clarkson had nowhere near that yet still went all in, so I do wonder whether it is possible to truly know where your list is at 'from the inside'?

Hawks are in stage 1 of a rebuild.... and I do wonder how Amon feels about this given he signed on before these trade moves

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Hawks are in stage 1 of a rebuild.... and I do wonder how Amon feels about this given he signed on before these trade moves

Surely he's fine with it. I mean, it's not like Hawthorn were ready to contend or make finals with O'Meara, Mitchell and Gunston. If Amon thought anything other than rebuild, I'd be worried for his sake.

[GVGjr]

There has been a bit of spirit displayed in some of the Hawks match simulations with some push and shove between players.
Even Sicily got pushed around in one a week or two back. Now if you have captain ambitions you can't be losing those test of strengths.

Yesterday Grainger-Barras sparked two scuffles.

Is there any need to be concerned from a Hawks perspective?
Would Mitchell and the coaches let the leaders sort it out or would he need to get involved?

[jazzadogs]

There has been a bit of spirit displayed in some of the Hawks match simulations with some push and shove between players.
Even Sicily got pushed around in one a week or two back. Now if you have captain ambitions you can't be losing those test of strengths.

Yesterday Grainger-Barras sparked two scuffles.

Is there any need to be concerned from a Hawks perspective?
Would Mitchell and the coaches let the leaders sort it out or would he need to get involved?

I think Mitchell would actively encourage such 'unsociable' training.

[1eyedog]

The Cats had their greatest ever player (Selwood) and their greatest ever goalkicker (Hawkins) and a genuine superstar (Danger) still on their list so they were well placed for another crack at it and were absolutely right to do so.
Clarkson had nowhere near that yet still went all in, so I do wonder whether it is possible to truly know where your list is at 'from the inside'?

Hawks are in stage 1 of a rebuild.... and I do wonder how Amon feels about this given he signed on before these trade moves

Wasn't aware Ablett Snr was still on the list.

[MrMahatma]

There has been a bit of spirit displayed in some of the Hawks match simulations with some push and shove between players.
Even Sicily got pushed around in one a week or two back. Now if you have captain ambitions you can't be losing those test of strengths.

Yesterday Grainger-Barras sparked two scuffles.

Is there any need to be concerned from a Hawks perspective?
Would Mitchell and the coaches let the leaders sort it out or would he need to get involved?

If it's just dudes getting a little excited by some contact and blowing off some steam, then fine, but if it's an opportunity for someone to have a crack at a team mate they flat out can't stand...?

So I guess the act of some agro isn't so bad, it's more the underlaying cause. You'd probably look to lift the hood a little if you were coach.

[Go_Dogs]

Typical hawk floggery. Hope they suffer down the bottom for another 10 years.

Mitchell would probably not mind it in match sim. I doubt he would tolerate it during a real game if it cost a free kick / goal.

[soupman]

It's 100% right up Mitchells alley. He loves that stuff and if Hawthorn want to train like they want to play then they should be training like they're arseholes.

[Happy Days]

Is Grainger-Barrass starting fights to be unsociable or is he starting fights because he’s still on the possibles team 3 years after being a top 5 pick?

[EasternWest]

Is Grainger-Barrass starting fights to be unsociable or is he starting fights because he’s still on the possibles team 3 years after being a top 5 pick?

Brutality.

[GVGjr]

From a player and list perspective what a mess the Hawks are at the moment? I get it's not Mitchell's fault and it all stems from short sighted vision from Clarkson but for them to push out Mitchell and O'Meara goes a long way to making them a very noncompetitive team.

I'm almost of the belief that they should be made to trade their 1st round pick this year rather than subjecting top tend talent to such a poor club.

[Mofra]

They've cut too hard.
The problem isn't round 1 though, it's that younger bodies without multiple pre-seasons under their belt tend to tire as the season wears on. Hawks are going to get worse as the season wears on, especially if they need to replace a couple of senior bodies with more raw kids.

I don't rate Essendon at all and they killed Hawthorn, now imagine a Hawks away game against Melbourne or Geelong in round 20. 100 point thrashings are in the cards.

[GVGjr]

They've cut too hard.
The problem isn't round 1 though, it's that younger bodies without multiple pre-seasons under their belt tend to tire as the season wears on. Hawks are going to get worse as the season wears on, especially if they need to replace a couple of senior bodies with more raw kids.

I don't rate Essendon at all and they killed Hawthorn, now imagine a Hawks away game against Melbourne or Geelong in round 20. 100 point thrashings are in the cards.

And they shouldn't really be rewarded for it. They've got a high number of members so are in no threat by bottoming out for a few years but the teams who play the Hawks twice have a better chance to push their team up the ladder.

[1eyedog]

From a player and list perspective what a mess the Hawks are at the moment? I get it's not Mitchell's fault and it all stems from short sighted vision from Clarkson but for them to push out Mitchell and O'Meara goes a long way to making them a very noncompetitive team.

I'm almost of the belief that they should be made to trade their 1st round pick this year rather than subjecting top tend talent to such a poor club.

Gunston was a bigger push. Hawks have been on the crack pipe ever since the Mitchell to Eagles Hodge to Brisbane fiasco went down but they've been by and large irrelevant since their 2016 SF loss to us. Ending their dynasty gives me a small sense of satisfication somewhere in the little black piece of coal I call a heart.

[Mofra]

And they shouldn't really be rewarded for it. They've got a high number of members so are in no threat by bottoming out for a few years but the teams who play the Hawks twice have a better chance to push their team up the ladder.
I know people will draw parallels to North, but north cut mostly fringe players while Hawks cut 2/3rds of their starting midfield.
I called them the bye on an Essendon thread yesterday and I think that's valid.
Some poor team will have a shocker of a week and might hand them a win, but the 2 win seasons of North and Eagles last year could be under threat.

[MrMahatma]

They'll cop some 100+ point thrashings and that's when the wolves come calling. Too many of those and as much as Mitchell can blame others, he'll be in the sights. Wouldn't surprise me if he's under the pump later this year, and out the door by mid next.

[GVGjr]

Gunston was a bigger push. Hawks have been on the crack pipe ever since the Mitchell to Eagles Hodge to Brisbane fiasco went down but they've been by and large irrelevant since their 2016 SF loss to us. Ending their dynasty gives me a small sense of satisfication somewhere in the little black piece of coal I call a heart.

Yep, I should have acknowledged that.