How did it come to this?

[Dry Rot]

What response would I have got if I'd posted this somewhere at the start of the 2006 season?


I reckon that our KPP forward players will be Wight and Minson by season 2008

How did it come to this sorry state?

IMHO we are in the bottom 4 for actual or potential forward KPPs.

Why?

[hujsh]

I wasn't here in 06 but i would have said won't that be Murph and Johnno's job. While we were winning it wasn't such a problem.

I would have us last or second last for actual/potential KPF with Grant's potential saving us from being absolutely dead last.

Melbourne, Adelaide, and Richmond and Geelong are closest to us

(Geelong have few after Hawkins and Mooney with Ablett gone)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We've recruited too many KPD's and smalls. Everybody already knows the amount of smalls we've recruited over the years, and sadly, we still lack in this area anyway. The club would be hoping 3 or 4 of the draftees from the last two years (Stack, Hill, Harbrow, Lynch, Ward, Reid, Wood, O'Keefe) come on, otherwise we're looking very ordinary in the midfield department with West, Aker & Eagleton nearing retirement. That's a debate for another time, though.

If you look over the years, the tall players we've drafted have all been defenders. Which is alright in a sense - we needed to fix up our backline woes that we've had for many years. The annoying thing is we're still giving up far too many goals. Harris is a quality FB with brain fades that he needs to fix. Williams is a project player but made good progress throughout 2007, it'll be interesting to see how he performs this year. We've also drafted Everitt who at the moment looks completely lost playing in the backline & O'Shea. You've got Cam Wight who has been earmarked for CHB for five years until now. Hargrave & Morris have continually been asked to play above their weight with mixed results, understandably.

In that time, only Grant & Boumann have been drafted as genuine KPF's. Correct me if I'm wrong but our last prior to that was Tim Walsh, an experiment the club would obviously like to forget about. I don't understand or know why the club has taken this path, perhaps partly due to our 'best available' policy which has landed us quality midfielders (Cooney, Griffen, Ray & Higgins). I suppose at the end of the day, that's what you have to question. Would we have been better taking those four midfielders over the best available talls at the time? Hindsight is wonderful, but that's what you've realistically got to question. When Cooney, Griffen, Ray & Higgins were drafted - what key forwards were still available? From memory only Franklin is the standout, aside from that we probably made the right decision. The Saints were gifted obvious choices in Riewoldt & Kosi so they were lucky. Geelong traded for Mooney & were gifted Hawkins.

So for mine, it's been a bit of everything. Unlucky that we haven't had a lot of choices at particular times (Aside from Franklin) and perhaps focused on other areas a little too much without paying any attention at all to our KPF woes. That, and we've traded for a long list of KPF duds.

If Grant & Boumann make it, we'll be fine for a decade. In the ideal world in 3-5 years time we'd have Harris at FB, O'Shea as his up-coming replacement or third defensive tall & Everitt as our CHB. Playing out at FF Jarrad Grant, Jarrad Boumann as the third tall forward & Tom Williams as our CHF. That's crystal balling at it's finest and if that occurred, along with more sensible drafting along the way, we'd be looking very nice indeed and the best we've looked in a long time as far as a spine is concerned. There's a lot of questions though obviously, and only time will tell.

[hujsh]

We've recruited too many KPD's and smalls. Everybody already knows the amount of smalls we've recruited over the years, and sadly, we still lack in this area anyway. The club would be hoping 3 or 4 of the draftees from the last two years (Stack, Hill, Harbrow, Lynch, Ward, Reid, Wood, O'Keefe) come on, otherwise we're looking very ordinary in the midfield department with West, Aker & Eagleton nearing retirement. That's a debate for another time, though.

If you look over the years, the tall players we've drafted have all been defenders. Which is alright in a sense - we needed to fix up our backline woes that we've had for many years. The annoying thing is we're still giving up far too many goals. Harris is a quality FB with brain fades that he needs to fix. Williams is a project player but made good progress throughout 2007, it'll be interesting to see how he performs this year. We've also drafted Everitt who at the moment looks completely lost playing in the backline & O'Shea. You've got Cam Wight who has been earmarked for CHB for five years until now. Hargrave & Morris have continually been asked to play above their weight with mixed results, understandably.

In that time, only Grant & Boumann have been drafted as genuine KPF's. Correct me if I'm wrong but our last prior to that was Tim Walsh, an experiment the club would obviously like to forget about. I don't understand or know why the club has taken this path, perhaps partly due to our 'best available' policy which has landed us quality midfielders (Cooney, Griffen, Ray & Higgins). I suppose at the end of the day, that's what you have to question. Would we have been better taking those four midfielders over the best available talls at the time? Hindsight is wonderful, but that's what you've realistically got to question. When Cooney, Griffen, Ray & Higgins were drafted - what key forwards were still available? From memory only Franklin is the standout, aside from that we probably made the right decision. The Saints were gifted obvious choices in Riewoldt & Kosi so they were lucky. Geelong traded for Mooney & were gifted Hawkins.

So for mine, it's been a bit of everything. Unlucky that we haven't had a lot of choices at particular times (Aside from Franklin) and perhaps focused on other areas a little too much without paying any attention at all to our KPF woes. That, and we've traded for a long list of KPF duds.

If Grant & Boumann make it, we'll be fine for a decade. In the ideal world in 3-5 years time we'd have Harris at FB, O'Shea as his up-coming replacement or third defensive tall & Everitt as our CHB. Playing out at FF Jarrad Grant, Jarrad Boumann as the third tall forward & Tom Williams as our CHF. That's crystal balling at it's finest and if that occurred, along with more sensible drafting along the way, we'd be looking very nice indeed and the best we've looked in a long time as far as a spine is concerned. There's a lot of questions though obviously, and only time will tell.

Well summed up. Agreed with everything there.

We should be getting Ayce Cordy with the father son and he sounds like a genuine tall forward prospect

[bornadog]

The annoying thing is we're still giving up far too many goals. Harris is a quality FB with brain fades that he needs to fix. Williams is a project player but made good progress throughout 2007, it'll be interesting to see how he performs this year. We've also drafted Everitt who at the moment looks completely lost playing in the backline & O'Shea. You've got Cam Wight who has been earmarked for CHB for five years until now. Hargrave & Morris have continually been asked to play above their weight with mixed results, understandably.

I agree that our backline allows far too many goals. We keep blaming the style of play where we attack, and players run forward, running the ball straight down the line and then when we cough it up, we are caught out and the opposition goals. I still don't believe we have fixed the backline and its going to take a number of years of development. In the past three seasons under Eade (excluding the last 7 games in 2007), we were in the top three for scoring in the AFL, yet in the bottom three for goals against. To me the backline is still very very wonky.

How did Geelong do it last year? They took our style of play from 2005/06 and perfected it and yet, they had a great backline that did not conceed many goals. Is it the midfield not being accountable, or is it the forward line not applying pressure, or simply our backline isnot as good as we think?

Its probably a bit of each one of these areas. Our midfield is slow, Cross, West and Boyd, so if the opposition has the ball, they can't keep up with the play and apply any defensive pressure. The forward line is similiar, Johnno never chases. In defense, we are not physically strong. Other than Lake, the rest of the guys are undersized in the muscle department. Williams is the one that has potential in that area. Hargrave gives away far too many free kicks and he and Morris are always playing on players that are stronger than they are. Everrit is still 18 years old and will turn 19 in the next few months, so we can't expect much from him.

One big difference that Geelong and other premiership teams have had is a big KPP in the forward line and we all know thats what we need. A target up forward that can take a few contested marks, or bring the ball down for the crumbers. The club recognizes this and have tried to recruit for the position. In the meantime, at least the club is trying to work something with the players they have, ie Minson and Wight. Its going to take time, but we need to stick to the game plan for more than just a handful of games.

[LostDoggy]

Still think best available talent is the only way to draft. You cant go looking for KPP, you have to be lucky when its your turn with the quality picks (eg St kilda Riewoldt and Kosi)

[Bulldog Revolution]

We've taken our big players with lower picks generally, but part of this has been in the years we have had high picks there have not been standout superstar key position prospects. Injury also ruined Walsh and Wiggins.

It now appears we have at least put a pipeline in place with Williams, Everitt, Grant, Boumann, Mulligan in the system

[hujsh]

We've taken our big players with lower picks generally, but part of this has been in the years we have had high picks there have not been standout superstar key position prospects. Injury also ruined Walsh and Wiggins.

It now appears we have at least put a pipeline in place with Williams, Everitt, Grant, Boumann, Mulligan in the system

You would hope at least 2 of those 5 come on. If 3 or more did then our future would be looking rather solid

[Dry Rot]

We've taken our big players with lower picks generally, but part of this has been in the years we have had high picks there have not been standout superstar key position prospects. Injury also ruined Walsh and Wiggins.

It now appears we have at least put a pipeline in place with Williams, Everitt, Grant, Boumann, Mulligan in the system

If we're lucky we might 2 or 3 good 'uns out of them, but they probably won't shine until 2010 - 2011.

IMHO we're really going to struggle in 2008 and 2009.

And by 2011, Johnno, West, Aker, Eagle and Hudson will all be gone.

[Mofra]

If you look over the years, the tall players we've drafted have all been defenders.
Who? More of our quality young talls played forward prior to being drafted
Harris/Lake - was a forward
Skipper - forward
Minson - forward
Wight - ruck/untility
Baird - forward
Williams - Wing? ;)
J. Grant - forward
Boumann - forward
Wells - forward
Everitt - defender
Mulligan & Shaw - ruck
That ex-Collingwood dud - forward

Rance was close to being drafted, he was also a defender and is worth mentioning
Tarrant was close too, as a forward

[hujsh]

Who? More of our quality young talls played forward prior to being drafted
Harris/Lake - was a forward
Skipper - forward
Minson - forward
Wight - ruck/untility
Baird - forward
Williams - Wing? ;)
J. Grant - forward
Boumann - forward
Wells - forward
Everitt - defender
Mulligan & Shaw - ruck
That ex-Collingwood dud - forward

Rance was close to being drafted, he was also a defender and is worth mentioning
Tarrant was close too, as a forward

These players all found different positions didn't they? (my knowledge of Wells stem from AFL 05 so I can't be sure)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Who? More of our quality young talls played forward prior to being drafted
Harris/Lake - was a forward
Skipper - forward
Minson - forward
Wight - ruck/untility
Baird - forward
Williams - Wing? ;)
J. Grant - forward
Boumann - forward
Wells - forward
Everitt - defender
Mulligan & Shaw - ruck
That ex-Collingwood dud - forward

Rance was close to being drafted, he was also a defender and is worth mentioning
Tarrant was close too, as a forward

None of these were drafted to the club as KPFs though, were they. Harris was always going to be a FB, he only played the first couple of games up forward. Skipper has played as a ruck/forward for his entire career whilst Minson was trained to be a ruck - only now has he switched to the forward line. Wight was earmarked for CHB for a few years until they started throwing him in the ruck and now up at CHF. Baird was never a key anything. Williams was drafted as a CHF but currently plays as a CHB/3rd defensive tall. Grant & Boumann were this year as I explained in my post whilst you've noted the rest.

Aside from Wells (one we'd like to forget about), they've all either been played in other positions for various reasons and haven't been groomed for a CHF/FF role like Grant will be.

[LostDoggy]

Our recruiting strategy stands in stark contrast to Hawthorns. Best available at all costs will lead to an over abundance of midfielders, moreover the obsession with drafting athletes instead of targeting players with grunt has left us with too many skinny aerobic athletes who struggle (through no fault of their own) in tight contested situations.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Our recruiting strategy stands in stark contrast to Hawthorns. Best available at all costs will lead to an over abundance of midfielders, moreover the obsession with drafting athletes instead of targeting players with grunt has left us with too many skinny aerobic athletes who struggle (through no fault of their own) in tight contested situations.

I've been screaming this from the rooftops since we took Shane Birss over Guy Richards in 2001, however the fact is we have missed out on surprisingly few good KPP's.

If you go through our draft picks, there were not many decent options taken immediately after our pick (no point in using 20-20 hindsight and say Nathan Thompson was taken pick 84, everyone passed on him 5 times).

The standouts to me were both from 2001.

A few phantom drafts had us interested in Ashley Hansen with our second pick (pick 28). We traded that pick away for Daniel Bandy and Hansen lasted until pick 34.

The other standout that year was Quinten Lynch. He was touted as top 20 but ended up getting taken in the rookie draft (the David Gourdis of his time). We used the last pick of the proper draft on Aaron James - a knucklehead who's knee was so shot he couldn't move.

McMahon instead of Petrie was another one speculated on but a poll on BF two years ago convincingly endorsed McMahon. I think we would all agree we now that we got that one wrong (except we got Cal Ward!).

Hawthorn's recruiting has been touted as being first class but they were lucky in that the year they had early picks Roughead and Franklin were available for them.

[Dry Rot]

The standouts to me were both from 2001.

A few phantom drafts had us interested in Ashley Hansen with our second pick (pick 28). We traded that pick away for Daniel Bandy and Hansen lasted until pick 34.



Good pick up. That hurts.



The other standout that year was Quinten Lynch. He was touted as top 20 but ended up getting taken in the rookie draft (the David Gourdis of his time). We used the last pick of the proper draft on Aaron James - a knucklehead who's knee was so shot he couldn't move.



Interesting. How many now known good KPPs have dropped through to the rookie draft?

I suppose I could say that 16 clubs overlooked him, but we'd have a damned different team with Lynch and Hansen.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

A few phantom drafts had us interested in Ashley Hansen with our second pick (pick 28). We traded that pick away for Daniel Bandy and Hansen lasted until pick 34.

The other standout that year was Quinten Lynch. He was touted as top 20 but ended up getting taken in the rookie draft (the David Gourdis of his time). We used the last pick of the proper draft on Aaron James - a knucklehead who's knee was so shot he couldn't move.
.


I guess it underlines for me that drafting a good tall requires a certain amount of good fortune but that it is a calculated lucky dip... Dogs at the time figured Bandy would solve some short term issues and give us a chance at immediate success.... In hindsight it didn't pan out... and now we look back and say gee I wish we had've kept the draft pick and taken Hansen.
For me this screams ... make the best your own luck and where possible take the punt on a youngster in the draft rather than trying to reinvent the wheel with a recycled player.
I guess the only time if it were me I might alter this course is where you have significant depth and therefore won't be left with no other option if the recycled player doesn't pan out.

[Mofra]

None of these were drafted to the club as KPFs though, were they.
Well, I'd say yes they were. If someone plays all their junior football in a position, that is generally where they are going to be envisinged playing in the future.
To go over my list:

Harris/Lake - was a forward - Played up forward prior to a permanent shift back
Skipper - forward - Played forward in his first few AFL games. Dermie even mentioned he liked the look of him at CHF aginst Brisbane
Minson - forward ... and is now being groomed there
Wight - ruck/untility Now being groomed as a forward
Baird - forward Never played anywhere but forward
Williams - Wing? Playing CHB straight after we had Hargrave playing CHB. Might go forward, but time will tell
J. Grant - forward Will play forward
Boumann - forward Who knows
Wells - forward Tried & trained as forward.
Everitt - defender Having a go on the wing as well as back
Mulligan & Shaw - ruck Both played ruck for the Gulls
That ex-Collingwood dud - forward About as effective as Wells

KPP forwards are not easy to find or develop, which is why some forwards will end up down back. Pretigiacomo, Clement, early Gehrig, Rutten, etc. were all young forwards & drafted as such.

[bornadog]

Looking at the list above, we have tried to recruit a tall forward but either they didn't work out or they are still developing. We know that talls take a lot longer to develop and don't peak till their mid 20's, which means we have to stick to a plan with Wight, Minson, Skipper and the next two groups in Everrit, Williams, Grant and Bouman, until one of them comes good. Of course they have to also show something, not just be in the side because they are tall.