WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

[Twodogs]

Pies aren't far enough in front. We will eat them.

If I was a Coillinggwood supporter I'd be a little worried that we haven't put us as far away as they should have but that's the silver lining of a very dark cloud for us. We are back in it a little but I'm expecting Collingwood to up their effort by a smidgen and wipe as aside.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Wow. So Sidebottom interviewed said 'feel sorry for the opposition ruckman'.. when asked about Grundy's dominance
Hope someone feeds that comment to Timmy.

Glad we kicked a few. Hope its not just a Dead Cat Bounce!

[The Pie Man]

Collingwood’s clearance work and half forward pressure was elite, but wow were we putrid.

Hesitated when we had no time, and blazed away when we did (yes, Hunter at least got his hands on it, but....)

Nice to get back into it*, but Lloyd then Young missing the ball in the last minute of that half were up there in some of our more embarrassing moments.

* I’m being generous there

[Grantysghost]

Second worst inside 50 ever at half time (8). Not sure it counts with shortened quarters.
Pies pressure rating first qtr highest ever.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Collingwood’s clearance work and half forward pressure was elite, but wow were we putrid.

Hesitated when we had no time, and blazed away when we did (yes, Hunter at least got his hands on it, but....)

Nice to get back into it*, but Lloyd then Young missing the ball in the last minute of that half were up there in some real embarrassing moments.

* I’m being generous there

That last passage of play was reminiscent of some of the best of the Keystone Cops!
Embarrassing.

[Sedat]

Bont, Macrae, Dunks were shamed by their Collingwood opposition. Grundy and even Cox obliterated English in all facets. It all starts at the source.

All summer we've been hearing garbage about 'redemption' after our meek and inept finals display. Talk is very cheap.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

English should be embarrassed. Has spent more time looking at Grundy than anything else. He'll have nightmares about Grundy

[soupman]

Geez Lloyd has another poor moment. I feel like he is a player that struggles to lift when faced with intensity.

Really poor half, i would say terrible except the last 5 minutes saved it a bit. Finally our midfield started to get thrir hands on the ball and we managed to retain some possesion.

Structurally we seem to be really struggling to cover their wide forwards. They seem to sit two really wide (Mihocek) about 55 out and use them as a bail put option under pressure.

Cordy taking kickouts is shite, although if the plan is to kick long to a contest anyway at least it saves us from the Daniel being the deepest defender bullshit.

Speaking if Daniel, a couple of times it has seemed like he is the option in the corrider as we come into the forward half. This is dumb. Why wiuld you put your weakest aerially and in a contest player as that option. Lloyds kick to him wa sdumb but it also showrd that there is no plan b if the option doesnt work. At least if its Macraw or Crozier or someone you are a chance of taking the mark, or spoiling the mark, or tackling and aplying enough pressure to at least get reinforcements. Daniel cannot do any of this.

Gardner has been ok fwiw. He has had an impact in almost every aerial contest he has been in and unlike half our other defenders hasnt given away a panicky free nor slipped his tackles. That recovery from that mispass to him was terrible, but as much as i dont rate him he far from the biggest underperformer out there.

[Mofra]

Naughton and Bruce very quiet. I think the concerns of many posters here that we went too tall late justified so far.

We need a scrapper small. Roarke Smith. Cal Porter. A genuine battler. Cav is a good start, but we need one in the middle. Run him off the wing.

[Vred]

Wow. So Sidebottom interviewed said 'feel sorry for the opposition ruckman'.. when asked about Grundy's dominance
Hope someone feeds that comment to Timmy.

Glad we kicked a few. Hope its not just a Dead Cat Bounce!

This is my last year for English, if he plays like this through the whole season we need to look at new ruck options.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

All summer we've been hearing garbage about 'redemption' after our meek and inept finals display. Talk is very cheap.

So much this.

So much rubbish about redemption and being the hunter.

[Sedat]

Dale doing his usual disappearing act against good opposition.
You can't question his impeccable timing in playing his best football when he is about to go out of contract. Even better than Kosi and Darran Gaspar in their prime.

[Happy Days]

This is the first time my dog has ever seen us play. I've been talking them up to him all summer. He's devastated probably.

We have a LOT to answer for.

[Mofra]

You can't question his impeccable timing in playing his best football when he is about to go out of contract. Even better than Kosi and Darran Gaspar.
He was borderline in the best 22 coming into tonight. At what point do we make him go back and really work for his spot?

[bornadog]

Second worst inside 50 ever at half time (8). Not sure it counts with shortened quarters.
Pies pressure rating first qtr highest ever.

Normally a stat we never lose, but mids are getting killed so that is what happens

[soupman]

Naughton and Bruce very quiet. I think the concerns of many posters here that we went too tall late justified so far.

We need a scrapper small. Roarke Smith. Cal Porter. A genuine battler. Cav is a good start, but we need one in the middle. Run him off the wing.

Not sure you can blame our talls. We have had about 7 inside 50s and half of them have been dumb.

A scrapper small would be good because they would bring intensity, which is what we have lacked this entire game. If the side lifts its intensity, and manages to actually retain the ball then we can see if our talls are the issue

[Vred]

You can't question his impeccable timing in playing his best football when he is about to go out of contract. Even better than Kosi and Darran Gaspar.

Nauhghton has also vanished this game...

[Happy Days]

Harsh on Dale considering we had TWO inside 50s in red time in the second quarter.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

This is my last year for English, if he plays like this through the whole season we need to look at new ruck options.

He definitely needs effective support.
I still think he's a great talent. Grundy is a gun.
Lets not forget Carey used to get owned by Jakovich. There is always a player that just seems to have the wood over a particular player.

[soupman]

He was borderline in the best 22 coming into tonight. At what point do we make him go back and really work for his spot?

Again he has hardly been helped by his teammates in giving him an opportunity.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Nauhghton has also vanished this game...

The ball has hardly been anywhere near him or any of our forwards.
This is on our on ball brigade and to a lesser extent our unbalanced defense

[Sedat]

English should be embarrassed. Has spent more time looking at Grundy than anything else. He'll have nightmares about Grundy
I see no evidence that he can actuallly ruck. Struggles badly with positioning, does not like body contact and has poor timing in his leaps.

It wasn't just Grundy who took him to the cleaners last year.

[Mofra]

Not sure you can blame our talls. We have had about 7 inside 50s and half of them have been dumb.

A scrapper small would be good because they would bring intensity, which is what we have lacked this entire game. If the side lifts its intensity, and manages to actually retain the ball then we can see if our talls are the issue
That's my point in a way. Our entire back 7 in the 2016 flash had only one bloke drafted - Wood at 43.

Cav is great, overlooked 6 times. I think we need another one like that. Gardner is the closest and he's having a dip, no criticism of him at all.

And I'm a huge Cordy fan, love his aggression but in no known universe do even I have him as a preferred kickout option. Exhibit A - kick it anywhere near Cox.

[bornadog]

Nauhghton has also vanished this game...

That happens when for two quarters the ball comes into the forward line 8 times

[Sedat]

He definitely needs effective support.
I still think he's a great talent.
Does he have talent in pure ruck craft?

4th year (and drafted as a 19 yo) and that question is still very much in the air.

[jeemak]

How's that not holding the man to Dale. Just complete bullshit to miss that.

[Sedat]

Dreadful tackling effort by Young

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Bont, Macrae and Dunkley just can't seem to do anything right. Anything

[Mofra]

Jesus, we're questioning English based on one shortened half against the best ruck in the competition?

He's basically the age Morris was on debut, except he's 207cm.

[chef]

Keath has been pretty shit.

[Mofra]

JJ terrible then

[Sedat]

Grundy again. Treating Timmy with utter contempt

[Mantis]

Zaine Cordy - lol!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Grundy again. Treating Timmy with utter contempt

At this point I'd rather see Sweet next week.

[ledge]

Any chance of going in our forward line ?
We got found out in final and other clubs are just copying it . We are weak when it gets hard.

[ratsmac]

Howmany *!*!*!*!ing missed or broken tackles?

[Twodogs]

Our blokes should just stand and watch. Especially when it goes over their forward 50.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Have we ever been first to the ball? It’s like we’re unfit

[Mantis]

Will we ever learn that Mitch Wallis isn’t an AFL standard mid?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Is it really 10 I50s? Surely that's impossible

[Mofra]

Maybe we have found the answer.

Ignore the flanks, use the corridor. Roll the dice dogs

[The Pie Man]

Jesus, we're questioning English based on one shortened half against the best ruck in the competition?

He's basically the age Morris was on debut, except he's 207cm.

He’ll be a player, but he’s been embarrassed tonight, physically monstered.

He’s just not ready for the no. 1 ruck role.

[Twodogs]

On the bright side we are nailing every chance at goal.

[bulldogtragic]

100% goal kicking accuracy. I guess that's at least something to consider as the house burns around us.

[The Underdog]

Who’ll hit a target when Suckling retires?

[Mantis]

Gardner is lucky to hit his foot when he kicks.. AFL player.. ok!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Gardner lol.

[Happy Days]

Stop scapegoating Garder guys.

[bulldogtragic]

Naughton not fit. Why is he playing?

[Danjul]

1. Cordy is not a full back. (And Nobody has told him the principles of kicking in.)

2. Collingwood knows that they have a dominant height advantage in the forward zone. So you can see them kick to setup 25 metres from goal. They have not had a long shot at goal in 14 scores.

3. Because of the height disadvantage it has been common to see the Dogs have 3 backmen attempting to spoil in a pack. This gives the Collingwood forwards the chance to spread.

4. The Dogs have been static. Not one attacking foot pass to a runner in the clear. Still handball focused with a receiver too close.

5. Kicks into the forward line are poor. High floaters after Collingwood has had time to fall back and set up.

6. Ruck structure doesn’t allow flexibility, needs a sacrificial spoiler so English can remain a significant contributor.

7. Dogs are standing too far from opposition. Allows them time to setup. They are getting no value from defending grass.

8. At most stoppages Collingwood has players away from the ball and players are looking for them.

9. Cox has dropped the ball a number of times and not been penalised.

10. Grundy hits the body, then the ball. Our rucks are not taking the hit into their routine.

11.

[angelopetraglia]

Someone please shed some light on how or why Gardner got a game?

[bulldogtragic]

Someone tell McLaughlin's PA to stop googling crowd quotes.

[Sedat]

Collingwood have been brilliant at pressuring the next link in the handball chain. Just like GWS did in the final.

I hope we have answers to this because we are going to cop it relentlessly every week

[ReLoad]

The have put our handball club to shame, they have used it so much better.

[AndrewP6]

Usual crap of “play with some urgency late in the 3rd quarter”

Conspiracy theory - they’ve already been told this season isn’t going ahead beyond the first couple of games. They just don’t give a stuff.

[Mantis]

Naughton not fit. Why is he playing?

Would we know if he’s fit? We’ve had 14 or 15 I50’s.. what chance has he had?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

At this point I'd rather see Sweet next week.

Whatever happened to Trengrove.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Usual crap of “play with some urgency late in the 3rd quarter”

Conspiracy theory - they’ve already been told this season isn’t going ahead beyond the first couple of games. They just don’t give a stuff.

Too many poor players and a badly selected team

[soupman]

Naughton not fit. Why is he playing?

What's the alternative? There's no reserves, the sooner he gets up to speed the better for everyone. Obviously we would be hoping he'd be better tonight but it isn't like the sides giving him a good go at it

[bulldogtragic]

Would we know if he’s fit? We’ve had 14 or 15 I50’s.. what chance has he had?

Looks short of a Gallup, and Young not great forward. While Schache sits at home. This is putrid, don't get me wrong. It started at the match committee for me.

[bornadog]

We really got this wrong at the selection table

[ledge]

We have 3 players attacking the player with the ball and they just handball over the top and they are out.
Keath has been very good , Wood was good early but where’s Bont is he injured ?

[Sedat]

What's the alternative? There's no reserves, the sooner he gets up to speed the better for everyone. Obviously we would be hoping he'd be better tonight but it isn't like the sides giving him a good go at it
Trengove in ruck and English forward worked a few times last year when changes needed to be made in-game. Unfortunately that isn't an option tonight.

[bulldogtragic]

What's the alternative? There's no reserves, the sooner he gets up to speed the better for everyone. Obviously we would be hoping he'd be better tonight but it isn't like the sides giving him a good go at it

Train him hard and play Schache. Young to fullback, and Gardner out. That's an alternative to me.

[Happy Days]

Remember in round one 2018 when Bevo picked Gowers over Daniel and a bunch of other good players? Garnder is pretty much that except I really hope he doesn't win our goalkicking like Bill did because I want Naughton and Bruce to kick more that 3 goals.

[Sedat]

We really got this wrong at the selection table
Selection hasnt helped but we have been found wanting in some tactical areas as well

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Stop scapegoating Garder guys.

He's been ordinary, but, I would fathom we were not expecting to see him required to do the things he's having to do tonight.
For shame our mids and followers. This is on them and quite possibly our coaching department.
We are getting absolutely creamed at the contest, humiliatingly so.

This lands squarely with English, Bont, Dunkley, Macrae and Smith

[Mantis]

We really got this wrong at the selection table

The game has been lost in the middle of the ground... been absolutely slaughtered in there.

[bornadog]

The game has been lost in the middle of the ground... been absolutely slaughtered in there.

Yes agree with that, but also no run and carry off the backline

[Sedat]

Hamish is almost making me wish for BT

[Mantis]

Yes agree with that, but also no run and carry off the backline

If you’re going to play JJ on the wing in the 1st half does it matter about selection?

[Happy Days]

He's been ordinary, but, I would fathom we were not expecting to see him required to do the things he's having to do tonight.
For shame our mids and followers. This is on them and quite possibly our coaching department.
We are getting absolutely creamed at the contest, humiliatingly so.

This lands squarely with English, Bont, Dunkley, Macrae and Smith

I agree with what you’re saying but we would’ve been better off raffling his spot to the members.

[bulldogtragic]

Hamish is almost making me wish for BT

I'd take BT. No to Basil though.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That should've been a free to us. No way was that a dangerous tackle.
Just BS

[Mantis]

These umpires can get *!*!*!*!ed!

[Mantis]

Can someone tell Bailey Dale that you don’t have to practice social distancing on the footy field?

[comrade]

I’m done for the night.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Is it unreasonable to expect an apology for this performance?

[jeemak]

Just an insipid and underprepared effort from our club. One side looked like it wanted to play, one didn't.

Our midfield group has been completely disgusting and give the impression of not smarting enough after having their arses handed to them last time they played. What they seem like is a group of players who have been reading Champion Data assessments of their prospects and listening to the pundits over the summer.

As for the coaching, it's hard to tell when not at the ground but it seems Collingwood set the ground up really well and we didn't.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That Jordan Roughead would look good in red, white and blue.

[Mantis]

I’m done for the night.

Given this might be our last game for quite a while this isn’t a performance to sell hope on.. deadest embarrassing!

[whythelongface]

Gee this has been pathetic. Men v boys

[kruder]

Whats happening off half back, finally we have some talls forward of the ball and we go backwards using Cordy and Gardner for the switch? Very strange indeed.

[comrade]

Given this might be our last game for quite a while this isn’t a performance to sell hope on.. deadest embarrassing!

Some very mentally fragile guys in the side, especially amongst the 190cm+ cohort. Reminds me of the Tarzan/Jane saying.

[angelopetraglia]

We have just been destroyed in every facet of the game. We just thought we would turn up and play champagne football. Not prepared to do the hard stuff for my he first bounce. I can’t believe we can be this bad. I just can’t.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I really, really hate 2020

[whythelongface]

Our mids have been outmuscled, outclassed and outskllled.

Bont has just played his worst game ever. Can’t get his hands on the ball.

[Remi Moses]

What a pathetic performance
Big game and they serve up that dross

[Mofra]

Dale dropped. Surely

[Mofra]

Is Bailey Smith now our best mid?

Shit night but he's been great for a 19 year old

[whythelongface]

Dale dropped. Surely

How about McCrae, dunkley and Bont. The ball has hardly been forward of 50

[Mantis]

Dale dropped. Surely

The ultimate down hill skier!

#3moreyearsfor4decentgames

[ledge]

And let’s give them goals in junk time

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

How about McCrae, dunkley and Bont. The ball has hardly been forward of 50

Absolutely.
Bont is he even there?
Worst game in his career.
Might be our last for a while. Shit way in tough times to represent.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Same old problems. Slow, pathetic skills and lack of intensity/physicality. Not sure what we were doing all offseason. In fact, I didn’t watch a game of the 2019 season and I feel we’ve made zero progress since 2018. And wait on. 2018 was as bad as 2017. Have we done anything since 2016?

[Eastdog]

Very disappointing. A non-performance.

[whythelongface]

I really, really hate 2020

Yep it damn well sucks. Not much to look forward to

[Remi Moses]

Must get a response in the next game whenever that is

[merantau]

1. Cordy is not a full back. (And Nobody has told him the principles of kicking in.)

2. Collingwood knows that they have a dominant height advantage in the forward zone. So you can see them kick to setup 25 metres from goal. They have not had a long shot at goal in 14 scores.

3. Because of the height disadvantage it has been common to see the Dogs have 3 backmen attempting to spoil in a pack. This gives the Collingwood forwards the chance to spread.

4. The Dogs have been static. Not one attacking foot pass to a runner in the clear. Still handball focused with a receiver too close.

5. Kicks into the forward line are poor. High floaters after Collingwood has had time to fall back and set up.

6. Ruck structure doesn’t allow flexibility, needs a sacrificial spoiler so English can remain a significant contributor.

7. Dogs are standing too far from opposition. Allows them time to setup. They are getting no value from defending grass.

8. At most stoppages Collingwood has players away from the ball and players are looking for them.

9. Cox has dropped the ball a number of times and not been penalised.

10. Grundy hits the body, then the ball. Our rucks are not taking the hit into their routine.

11.

Excellent analysis

[Mantis]

Is there a slower player under 6’1’ in the comp than Wallis? He just can’t get across the ground.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I love this club.
This performance, given the weirdness, uniquenes of the time we're in right now, is heartbreaking.
We play GWS next week (if circumstances allow). I expect nothing less than a 'life depends on it' performance.

[angelopetraglia]

4th lowest inside 50s in AFL history (22). Obviously shorter quarters didn’t help. But that was a horrific display.

[whythelongface]

Same old problems. Slow, pathetic skills and lack of intensity/physicality. Not sure what we were doing all offseason. In fact, I didn’t watch a game of the 2019 season and I feel we’ve made zero progress since 2018. And wait on. 2018 was as bad as 2017. Have we done anything since 2016?

You are right. Our ball movement is so slow. Collingwood played well and that is how I thought we were going to play. We were fumbling, no control, lack of vision, unable to tackle, no intensity, dominated. Probably the worst performance I can remember.

[Mantis]

I love this club.
This performance, given the weirdness, uniquenes of the time we're in right now, is heartbreaking.
We play GWS next week (if circumstances allow). I expect nothing less than a 'life depends on it' performance.

We’ve got Carlton next game.

[bulldogtragic]

Don't count on almost any memberships of the back of that embarrassment.

[Hotdog60]

13,000 potential members just said "ah, nope I save my money for next year if things get better"

[ledge]

Totally disheartening display , considering we were supposed to have filled our weaknesses we created new ones with our midfield.
Teams just have to go in hard in the middle and we shit our pants . Game over.

[Grantysghost]

Normal analysis I think is hard to apply to this performance in these circumstances. Never seen the team that flat in rd 1. Bloody shame season held so much promise.

[The Underdog]

Don't count on almost any memberships of the back of that embarrassment.

Might pop mine in the microwave

[Sedat]

Our midfield group has been completely disgusting and give the impression of not smarting enough after having their arses handed to them last time they played. What they seem like is a group of players who have been reading Champion Data assessments of their prospects and listening to the pundits over the summer.
Every so often an opposition midfield group brings the heat and completely embarrasses our big name mids through sheer 2-way workrate. Cripps and Petrevski-Seton did it last year, GWS did it in the final. Pies did it tonight.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We’ve got Carlton next game.

oh dear. Sorry. I thought I'd stifle my wine consumption early in the season. I failed.

[Mofra]

The ultimate down hill skier!

#3moreyearsfor4decentgames
I think so sadly. Hard gig as a forward tonight but his lack of effort has been evident in any game we don't smack it in the midfield

[Sedat]

We’ve got Carlton next game.
Our mids will need to lift - Cripps absolutely smashed us in the first game last year.

[angelopetraglia]

Without fans the product is compromised. It ain’t footy. I don’t know what it is. But it’s all we have. This has been such a shit year. We are stuck in our homes. Everything is cancelled. No kids sport. No footy. Can’t even go to work.

It may be crap. But at least we have some footy, even if it’s highly compromised. That hurts. That really hurts. Pour me a drink.

[Mofra]

Normal analysis I think is hard to apply to this performance in these circumstances. Never seen the team that flat in rd 1. Bloody shame season held so much promise.

We were laughing during the warm up. It was weird.

Most may disagree, but I liked Bailey Smith tonight. I think when the shit his the fan he'll still run his guts out. I like that.

As a massive Cordy fan - why the hell was he taking kick outs? Never again please.

[Bullies]

Something not right with Macrae. He was ordinary in Vic game and Port game and no improvement tonight. A lot of players worse than him tonight but he doesn't play 3 in a row like that. Looks very slow.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So, in a year that is going to be unlike any other. Where no one knew what was going to happen given the circumstances, we just put in an effort for the ages.. for all the wrong reasons.
In doing so, Collingwood just sang the team song like no other I've seen in a long while. Wind out of sails for us, and we face Carlton (thanks Mantis!) next week - if it proceeds. Carlton looked garbage and then they fought. Even if we wind, it will be no redemption. If we lose, we're on life support.
In normal course of events, you'd say it's not ideal, but we can right the ship with a month of good footy. We may not get the opportunity for that.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We were laughing during the warm up. It was weird.

Most may disagree, but I liked Bailey Smith tonight. I think when the shit his the fan he'll still run his guts out. I like that.

As a massive Cordy fan - why the hell was he taking kick outs? Never again please.

And that smacks of garbage from our coaches and selection committee. It highlights how imbalanced we are down back. As does Keath having to predominantly having to play as a lock down defender.

[Sedat]

Most may disagree, but I liked Bailey Smith tonight. I think when the shit his the fan he'll still run his guts out. I like that.
Thought he was easily our best 4 quarter player tonight

[The Bulldogs Bite]

MC continue the trend of trying to outsmart the room early in seasons.

Gardner's selection is nothing short of negligent. He should be playing WRFL. That's said with tongue in cheek but he's so far off the level that it's frightening.

JJ on a wing, Cordy kicking out, Naughton underdone, Keath as a lockdown, Young as a third forward/ruck (If Naughton wasn't playing fine).

Selections clearly wouldn't have mattered given how inept our player buy in was but why do our MC continually *!*!*!*! around with what is proven?

This is one of the most disappointing and embarrassing nights our club has had.

[merantau]

That was as bad a performance as I have seen in the last 45 years. We were totally outplayed in every facet of the game. We were brushed aside. Hard to understand the meekness of that non-performance. Keath was ok, Smith tried very hard, Crozier was ok, Wood in the 1st half gets a tick, Daniel in the 2nd half got a bit of it. I can't criticize the forwards too much because the ball hardly got down there!

[Bulldog Revolution]

Very poor performance - poorly selected side, top heavy, our best players had no influence.

Lots of guys looked short of a gallop, nothing went right

[SonofScray]

My deepest, darkest secret is a belief that Bevo should have been sacked at half time of Rd 3 2018.
I keep it chained up but it is a beast. It's chains were rattling last year early on, they're rattling again.

[Bullies]

Is Lapinski injured?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Is Lapinski injured?

Delayed Concussion from Port pre-season game

[HOSE B ROMERO]

I'm only going to say one thing on tonight's game

Do not serve up that lack of intensity again this season; your supporters deserve better.

[Grantysghost]

We were laughing during the warm up. It was weird.

Most may disagree, but I liked Bailey Smith tonight. I think when the shit his the fan he'll still run his guts out. I like that.

As a massive Cordy fan - why the hell was he taking kick outs? Never again please.

Smith and Keath can be proud of their effort, the rest I'm not sure what happened. 88 percent of players voted to play, maybe we were the opposing 12.

[The Pie Man]

I really hope they look at Trengove to play ruck - seriously reckon English should play more forward at this stage of his career.

Then you just look at Young or Gardner as the big defender.

I dunno...would help if we looked interested, Macrae had that first half of 2019 look about him.

[josie]

I thought Cavarra looked better than our regular mids when put around stoppages late in game. I am tired of Bevo not respecting importance of ruck craft. Trengove should be given more chance to play. Sad to see Roughy in pies colours but happy for him he picked a good side. Let’s hope tonight was an aberration and team can pick themselves up. Keath and Smith the only positives I can think of and also Wood early on. Bailey Williams and Crozier did a few nice things too.

Where was Dunks tonight?

[Prince Imperial]

The sad fact is that the third most capable ruck on the ground tonight was Roughead.

[Danjul]

I hope handball is removed from the training program. It destroyed the player setup tonight. 4 short hand passes gives the opposition time to corral the ball movement and caused fumbles. It also draws more of our players into that zone, Taking them out of relevance and allowing opponents to form an outer perimeter.

Therefore Morning training should be restricted to kicking 40 metres into a wheelie bin until further notice.

At afternoon training the closest players are to be is 40 metres to reinforce their understanding of how important that distance is.

After a mark the slow skip away from our goal, followed by a slow 360 degree panoramic viewing of the stadium, and then a slow kick backwards, is replaced by a quick kick forward to someone who has run into a good position ‘x’ metres closer to goal.

What might ‘x’ be?

[jeemak]

My deepest, darkest secret is a belief that Bevo should have been sacked at half time of Rd 3 2018.
I keep it chained up but it is a beast. It's chains were rattling last year early on, they're rattling again.

Round two?

[SonofScray]

Round two?

Correct, it was R2.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Faarrkk.
We were outplayed by a very well drilled team.

[jeemak]

Correct, it was R2.

I put this one firmly on the midfield leaders. Hunter when we needed him to execute couldn't, Bontempelli, Dunkley and Macrae couldn't get the defencive mindset to nullify or get the footy themselves. It was a complete shit show between the arcs.

[SonofScray]

I put this one firmly on the midfield leaders. Hunter when we needed him to execute couldn't, Bontempelli, Dunkley and Macrae couldn't get the defencive mindset to nullify or get the footy themselves. It was a complete shit show between the arcs.

Awful, rushed kicking up the line. Second to the footy and out worked in space. Out muscled. They've done themselves a disservice as a group tonight.

[whythelongface]

I hope handball is removed from the training program. It destroyed the player setup tonight. 4 short hand passes gives the opposition time to corral the ball movement and caused fumbles. It also draws more of our players into that zone, Taking them out of relevance and allowing opponents to form an outer perimeter.

Therefore Morning training should be restricted to kicking 40 metres into a wheelie bin until further notice.

At afternoon training the closest players are to be is 40 metres to reinforce their understanding of how important that distance is.

After a mark the slow skip away from our goal, followed by a slow 360 degree panoramic viewing of the stadium, and then a slow kick backwards, is replaced by a quick kick forward to someone who has run into a good position ‘x’ metres closer to goal.

What might ‘x’ be?

No issue with the handball per se. We just couldn’t hit a target or we continuously fumbled the ball. When Collingwood handballed they were direct and quick. They used handballs to their advantage. The problem was we didn’t pressure them enough and they harrassed the crap out of us which lead to us turning over the ball from handballs continuously. We need to be quicker with our hands allowing us to create space and run. We did this a few times and that is when we looked our best. Daniel was our best exponent tonight.

The thing that pisses me off is the blind kick over the shoulder down the wing to no one. Hunter and Dunkley did this a few times.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I hope handball is removed from the training program. It destroyed the player setup tonight. 4 short hand passes gives the opposition time to corral the ball movement and caused fumbles. It also draws more of our players into that zone, Taking them out of relevance and allowing opponents to form an outer perimeter.

Therefore Morning training should be restricted to kicking 40 metres into a wheelie bin until further notice.

At afternoon training the closest players are to be is 40 metres to reinforce their understanding of how important that distance is.

After a mark the slow skip away from our goal, followed by a slow 360 degree panoramic view of the stadium, and then a slow kick backwards, is replaced by a quick kick forward to someone who has run into a good position ‘x’ metres closer to goal.

What might ‘x’ be?

I don't think that is true.

I'm surprised to be honest, because your normal Ruck narrative could've got a nice run tonight.
Collingwood had 162 handballs to 118

The issue wasn't the amount of handballs, but the conditions under which we resorted to them, and then the resulting under pressure bang it on the foot no look kick that transpired.

We lost this 100% at the source.

Centre clearances: 15 to 5 Collingwood
Contested possessions: 123 to 93 Collngwood
Inside 50's : 42 to 22 Collingwood
Marks inside 50 14 to 2 Collingwood

And it was a tackle free game as a result 49 to 41 Collingwood.

We lost this at the contest, in and around the ball. Anything after that is merely a consequence.
That our handballs were ineffective is less about it being the wrong thing to do, than it is the circumstances under which the handballs happened.
I am surprised, you must have a new spin for 2020. Normally you're keen to smash our inequity in the ruck contest. Tonight, it and the set up and performance of our blokes around the source was below average for a amateur side much less an AFL side.

If we win our fair share at the souce, if not due to English's tap, then through our ability to negate at least Grundy's ability to get it to his teammate then this is at least a 50/50 game.
I can't find the stat for taps to advantage online, but I did see on TV at one stage around half time it was 12 to Collingwood and 1 to us. That is HUGE! I think at one stage it was a tap to advantage in 1 in 7 ball ups. Again that is massive.
We were as a result on the backfoot at all time, and irrespective of whether we handballed or pressure kicked it, we would've been at a severe disadvantage.

[GVGjr]

We really got this wrong at the selection table

Same as we did early last yeast year.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Same as we did early last yeast year.

We better adjust very quickly, if circumstances allow us to.

[GVGjr]

We won't win too many games when our effort early on is so poor and our organisation was almost non-existent
Collingwood aren't a bad side but there is no way they should be a 50 point better team than us if we show up to play

Some observations:

Are we suffering from "the smartest team in the room syndrome" with our team selections?
Despite recruiting 2 key position players we looked undermanned
How does such a talented team can put forward games without the right energy and effort to win games?

In the nicest possible way we have some work to do before the next game right across the club

[GVGjr]

We better adjust very quickly, if circumstances allow us to.

Recent history would say that isn't necessarily a strong point for us. We can be pig stubborn with our selections

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Recent history would say that isn't necessarily a strong point for us. We can be pig stubborn with our selections

I think/hope this result and performance as well as environmental factors will see a more holistic review

[GVGjr]

Wasn't our tackling efforts inept tonight?
I don't get how we could use the final against GWS last year as a yardstick over the summer and show up week one this season with a highly questionable effort across so many players

We weren't sharp, our skill level and decision making was highly questionable and we were very unorganized and I don't get why
On the field and in the coaches box we had our backsides handed to us tonight

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Wasn't our tackling efforts inept tonight?
I don't get how we could use the final against GWS last year as a yardstick over the summer and show up week one this season with a highly questionable effort across so many players

If i could've banked on just one thing ahead of tonight it would've been ferocity, hardness, effort, resolve and genuine unfreindliness.

Where was it? Why was it not there?

[Danjul]

I don't think that is true.


Collingwood had 162 handballs to 118

The issue wasn't the amount of handballs, but the conditions under which we resorted to them, and then the resulting under pressure bang it on the foot no look kick that transpired.

We lost this 100% at the source.

Centre clearances: 15 to 5 Collingwood
Contested possessions: 123 to 93 Collngwood
Inside 50's : 42 to 22 Collingwood
Marks inside 50 14 to 2 Collingwood

And it was a tackle free game as a result 49 to 41 Collingwood.

We lost this at the contest, in and around the ball. Anything after that is merely a consequence.
That our handballs were ineffective is less about it being the wrong thing to do, than it is the circumstances under which the handballs happened.
I am surprised, you must have a new spin for 2020. Normally you're keen to smash our inequity in the ruck contest. Tonight, it and the set up and performance of our blokes around the source was below average for a amateur side much less an AFL side.

If we win our fair share at the souce, if not due to English's tap, then through our ability to negate at least Grundy's ability to get it to his teammate then this is at least a 50/50 game.
I can't find the stat for taps to advantage online, but I did see on TV at one stage around half time it was 12 to Collingwood and 1 to us. That is HUGE! I think at one stage it was a tap to advantage in 1 in 7 ball ups. Again that is massive.
We were as a result on the backfoot at all time, and irrespective of whether we handballed or pressure kicked it, we would've been at a severe disadvantage.

The ruck situation was predictable. And thanks for acknowledging that I have tried to help the club by pointing it out. We saw Collingwood do it twice last year. Other teams too. As soon as you saw the team announcement you and I both knew what was in store. And I think English is one of our most valuable players if used intelligently.

My handball comment is totally separate from the ruck debacle. That was also previewed last year .

The number of handballs is irrelevant. Collingwood dominated play, 45 more possessions by quarter time, so they were always going to have a lot more. They used handball differently, it was used when appropriate but foot passes were given priority.

I didn’t see the Dogs handball to outside runners at full speed (Collingwood did this well) . I didn’t see the Dogs handball ‘over the top’ or players even set up out there. They were all inside the corral.

I did (frequently) see the Dogs attempt hand passes when a kick was a superior option. Just like I saw them kick backwards without even looking forward and stuffing up what should have been a simple kick when under no pressure. I think Collingwood got a few goals as a result.

My comment was about the quality of the kicking and not the quantity of the handball. It looks like the players are not comfortable kicking and are resorting to handball to compensate, and the players are setting up with that in mind.

[Sedat]

There seems to be an automatic assumption that English will suddenly morph into a cross between Simon Madden and Polly Farmer once he puts on some size. It wasn't just Grundy who smashed him tonight, Mason Cox repeatedly out-worked him in ruck contests, and no disrespect to Cox but he is a skinny beanpole and late convert to the game. We know Witts, Goldy and others also mauled English last year when he was forced to go it alone with no proper back-up support. It cost us close games last year in the name of 'player development'.

If English is to have any chance at becoming a valuable and consistent ruckman, plonking him in there for 80% of the time against the big boys is not the way to go about it IMO. He looks for all the world to me like someone who is much better served by sharing the load with another ruckman. Whether that is Sweet, Trengove or someone else remains to be seen. He can certainly cause problems up forward, and can also link up well around the ground a-la Dean Cox. I have grave reservations that he will be our Grundy or Gawn - he just doesn't have the body positioning nous of the stronger ruckmen, nor the leap timing of the athletic ruckmen. And whe he is getting towelled up (too common an occurrence for my liking) he loses all confidence in the other facets of his game that are usually strong.

I really want to be wrong on this.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The ruck situation was predictable. And thanks for acknowledging that I have tried to help the club by pointing it out. We saw Collingwood do it twice last year. Other teams too. As soon as you saw the team announcement you and I both knew what was in store. And I think English is one of our most valuable players if used intelligently.

My handball comment is totally separate from the ruck debacle. That was also previewed last year .

The number of handballs is irrelevant. Collingwood dominated play, 45 more possessions by quarter time, so they were always going to have a lot more. They used handball differently, it was used when appropriate but foot passes were given priority.

I didn’t see the Dogs handball to outside runners at full speed (Collingwood did this well) . I didn’t see the Dogs handball ‘over the top’ or players even set up out there. They were all inside the corral.

I did (frequently) see the Dogs attempt hand passes when a kick was a superior option. Just like I saw them kick backwards without even looking forward and stuffing up what should have been a simple kick when under no pressure. I think Collingwood got a few goals as a result.

My comment was about the quality of the kicking and not the quantity of the handball. It looks like the players are not comfortable kicking and are resorting to handball to compensate, and the players are setting up with that in mind.

"I hope handball is removed from the training program. It destroyed the player setup tonight. 4 short hand passes gives the opposition time to corral the ball movement and caused fumbles. It also draws more of our players into that zone, Taking them out of relevance and allowing opponents to form an outer perimeter"

Your words above.

I contend handball was only a problem due to the circumstances we were placed in, due to our inability to gain ascendancy at the source. We've always been a handball heavy team under Bevo, and McCartney. The issue is less the handball, than the circumstances under which we are forced to employ it.
We were on the back foot every time we were fortunate enough to gain possession. Whilst we no doubt missed opportunities to kick to our advantage, this was born less from our proclivity to handball than it was our inability to win proactive ball use in the first instance.
We are always prone to getting caught flatfooted with our handball game, when our mids and followers are soundly beaten to the punch, as the contested ball and hitouts to advantage show.

We are a handball team, that has been our go for a while. The bigger issue is whether that is still a viable option. If its not, then with Dunkley and Macrae in the trench we've got some issues, especially if English is not the tap ruck Messiah we hope he is.

We didn't hit outside runners because we were not able to. We were constantly on the back foot and forced to defensively handball, repeatedly and we got caught out a lot. At best this meant Dunkley and Macrae were forced to invoke the almost forgotten Matthew Boyd no look kick..

So the quality of the kick was a result of the quality of the handball which was a result of the inability to gain anything approaching 50% of the contest.

Grundy and the Collingwood onball unit was in my opinion the main issue.

I am still coming to terms with trying to understand how ineffective Bont was. That was the other elephant in the room.

[jeemak]

Taps to advantage or any other ruck advantage can at a minimum be negated if we have a midfield group willing to do it. Tonight we didn't, many times last year we showed we could when we were committed to the cause.

Nobody who is sane would have actually thought English improved exponentially over the course of the preseason to guarantee the issues we saw with him last year wouldn't have been there tonight. I expected him to struggle, it seems our midfield either backed him in too optimistically or were sleeping at the wheel. What I saw from the midfield suggests they were suffering from the latter issue, We gave away silly free kicks which is a big sign, and were sloppy and didn't tackle.

The good news is all of this is related to something that can be changed with a different mindset. Our blue chip midfielders need to get their hands dirty and provide cover for everyone else who is helping them to try and get a result.

[Sedat]

Our handball game suffers when there is real heat applied inside. And teams that have been effective at dismantling our run and carry have been able to do it by attacking both the player with the ball and the next in line to receive the handball. Collingwood ruthlessly exposed this tonight, which completely starved our forward 50 and get them far too many good looks in their F50 (hence they took 14 marks inside F50 to our 2)

We need some defensively-minded mids who can provide a better balance between our all out kamikaze ball movement and also putting some time into opposition mids. Hello Libba.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

There seems to be an automatic assumption that English will suddenly morph into a cross between Simon Madden and Polly Farmer once he puts on some size. It wasn't just Grundy who smashed him tonight, Mason Cox repeatedly out-worked him in ruck contests, and no disrespect to Cox but he is a skinny beanpole and late convert to the game. We know Witts, Goldy and others also mauled English last year when he was forced to go it alone with no proper back-up support. It cost us close games last year in the name of 'player development'.

If English is to have any chance at becoming a valuable and consistent ruckman, plonking him in there for 80% of the time against the big boys is not the way to go about it IMO. He looks for all the world to me like someone who is much better served by sharing the load with another ruckman. Whether that is Sweet, Trengove or someone else remains to be seen. He can certainly cause problems up forward, and can also link up well around the ground a-la Dean Cox. I have grave reservations that he will be our Grundy or Gawn - he just doesn't have the body positioning nous of the stronger ruckmen, nor the leap timing of the athletic ruckmen. And whe he is getting towelled up (too common an occurrence for my liking) he loses all confidence in the other facets of his game that are usually strong.

I really want to be wrong on this.

That Cox hammered him was disconcerting Sedat.
I do think that having some decent support, (and Schache, Young or Bruce ain't it) is something we need to consider.
This is something our coaches and recruiting team need to workshop very quickly.
This is going to be a weird year, and we might need to make this a focal point for finding out if this is our achilles heel. It seems to be.
Sh1t I still can't believe that for whatever reason Roughy left us. How a Bulldog's supporting, premiership player felt the need to leave our club boggles my mind.

[Sedat]

Taps to advantage or any other ruck advantage can at a minimum be negated if we have a midfield group willing to do it. Tonight we didn't, many times last year we showed we could when we were committed to the cause.

Nobody who is sane would have actually thought English improved exponentially over the course of the preseason to guarantee the issues we saw with him last year wouldn't have been there tonight. I expected him to struggle, it seems our midfield either backed him in too optimistically or were sleeping at the wheel. What I saw from the midfield suggests they were suffering from the latter issue, We gave away silly free kicks which is a big sign, and were sloppy and didn't tackle.

The good news is all of this is related to something that can be changed with a different mindset. Our blue chip midfielders need to get their hands dirty and provide cover for everyone else who is helping them to try and get a result.
Oh I agree with this 100%. The mindset of our mids tonight was nowhere near even a basic acceptable standard - Smith the standout exception. They were embarrassed by their opponents in every facet tonight. I expect them to bounce back hard next week, as they have done previously when putting in a collective shocker.

[Happy Days]

It's been a couple hours and like seriously Dogs what the *!*!*!*! (drunk btw).

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Taps to advantage or any other ruck advantage can at a minimum be negated if we have a midfield group willing to do it. Tonight we didn't, many times last year we showed we could when we were committed to the cause.

Nobody who is sane would have actually thought English improved exponentially over the course of the preseason to guarantee the issues we saw with him last year wouldn't have been there tonight. I expected him to struggle, it seems our midfield either backed him in too optimistically or were sleeping at the wheel. What I saw from the midfield suggests they were suffering from the latter issue, We gave away silly free kicks which is a big sign, and were sloppy and didn't tackle.

The good news is all of this is related to something that can be changed with a different mindset. Our blue chip midfielders need to get their hands dirty and provide cover for everyone else who is helping them to try and get a result.


100%.
I really do think we drank our own preseason training bathwater regarding Timmy's development. Everyone in house was saying how Timmy had progressed exponentially over preseason. Umm. That's great.. BUT.. who was he up against???
If we placed our gameplan in the hands of Timmy's progression, then we were clearly caught out tonight.
The selection of Gardner indicates we felt that Collingwood's forwards would not be getting quick ball forward. It indicates we thought we'd halve contests at the source and were willing to back our defense on that basis.
Instead we saw the ball scream towards their forward line allowing no one to get set, and letting separation occur where Gardners lack of pace and Keath's inability to be a lockdown defender cost us.
We can recover. But it comes from with some humility with regard to English's tap ruck ability right now. We need to utilise English's competitive advantages around the ground (against most ruckmen) and also set up for the fact that Tim is probably not going to win many taps.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It's been a couple hours and like seriously Dogs what the *!*!*!*! (drunk btw).

I hear you HD.
I was very sure, even at Thursday I would refrain from uncorking my reserve bottles.. I failed.

[Rocket Science]

On one hand, in the current moment it feels trite and indulgent to moan about a compromised game of footy.

On the other hand that ranks amongst the bleakest, most piss-weak outings I've watched us trot out this century.

A game plan that hinges on our midfield dictating terms isn't much chop when that midfield doesn't bother turning up. There are so many untried, un-proven holes at either end that frankly can't cope when the game's not played on our terms. Great formula.

Collingwood chopped us up tonight and did it easily. Whether they're up to it or not there's little point potting Gardner, Cavarra, Dale and co. when our prime movers can't get a sniff and our coaching panel can't adjust because the structure and/or personnel are sub-par.

Granted Collingwood are decent opposition but all that pre-season fluffing we were treated to felt a bit wrong and undeserved throughout, and tonight vindicates that instinct.

Shit-house.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I am looking forward to reading MJP's take in the next day or so.
He usually makes me want to delete my posts following each game.
Tonight is no different! Come on down Mike!

[Mantis]

I am looking forward to reading MJP's take in the next day or so.
He usually makes me want to delete my posts following each game.
Tonight is no different! Come on down Mike!

You can’t defend the indefensible... that was a woeful performance by both the MC & players. If Mike can paint a positive from that train wreck then I’ll be amazed. We picked a poorly structured team, set-up even worse and our players played bruise-free footy and made woeful mistakes in both decision making & skill execution.

The club have said all the right things in the lead up to the game and then serve that up... embarrassing!

[SonofScray]

‪It won't matter in the grand scheme of things due to #covid19 but the season is already shot. You can't expect to contend if within us, there is capacity for such putrid performances. Season shot. Months of meaningless footy ahead. ‬

2017 we shot ourselves in the foot. 2018 the season was shot within the first 6 quarters of footy played. Last year wasn't far removed but for a late spike in form staving of the malaise. All the wind has been taken out of my sails at this point after last night.

[chef]

Just looked like we didnt want to be out there.

[Pickenitup]

I’m really disappointed how we played last night, but this year is a season like no other and I doubt we will finish the year onwards and upwards to Season 2021.

[GVGjr]

You can’t defend the indefensible... that was a woeful performance by both the MC & players. If Mike can paint a positive from that train wreck then I’ll be amazed. We picked a poorly structured team, set-up even worse and our players played bruise-free footy and made woeful mistakes in both decision making & skill execution.

The club have said all the right things in the lead up to the game and then serve that up... embarrassing!

With the shorter season we can't wait for the MC to get the selections right and with shorter quarters we can't give up starts like we did last night. We have plenty of work to before the next match but the one thing more than anything that needs to be addressed is the effort the players must bring and I'm not sure why that is a somewhat consistent theme for us.
I often read about the age and experience profile of the list we put onto the ground to explain our losses but last night is proof that it's nowhere near as important as the effort the players bring to the contest.

[CarnTheScray]

What a shocking performance. At least 5 of those players out there last night wouldn't be in my AFL side. This game has managed to be the one that breaks my father after 60 years. He's cancelled his membership for the first time in his history of supporting the club. Who can blame him.

[soupman]

It's usually hard to judge selection when the putrid effort your team puts in renders any plan useless, but all the same like everyone I think there were quite a few things wrong with how we setup.

I don't necessarily think we went in too tall, the shorter quarter mean you need less running power and I assume our gameplan is about getting it in quickly to 3 marking targets.

However, Young should not have been picked as a forward. He has played two scratch matches there, and in truth looked good for one quarter. From a team balance perspective he is a strong mark who plays deep. Exactly what Bruce is. Considering Naughton is not match fit and unlikely to be roaming the wings, this means we go into the match with three mark only talls that all want to play deep. Schache after what i thought was an encouraging pre season has at least shown glimpses of being able to play a bit higher as a link up target (I thought he was excellent pushing up the ground in Marsh 1), he should absolutely have been picked ahead of Young as a key forward, especially considering he is the only tall forward we have who uses the ball well by foot as a link up player and unlike Naughton and Bruce performed in that role preseason. If we play three talls we can't have them all deep.

Young should be in defence. Again I know he had a good quarter against North, but we already have three good tall forward projects with Ugle Hagen coming as well. We don't need him forward. Meanwhile we are playing Cordy in defence who has been woeful since 2018, and Gardner who whilst I actually thought played his role effectively (aside from completely stuffing up two switch plays), is not someone we should be playing. Young is as good as either Cordy or Gardner defensively, but is a better mark, better reader of the ball and better athletically. He absolutely should be playing in defence. If we want to pump games into him then pump them in a position he will be most useful to us long term.

Trengove is the other obvious solution (apparently not, I think his magnet is in the same place Roberts and Campbells magnets ended up in for the last year and a half of their contracts). The player on our list clearly best suited to playing on Cox, ugly but reliable and actually a defensive aerial presence, and a backup ruck if it all goes to shit as well. Considering half of English's games seem to be disasters in the ruck it probably isn't the worst idea to play a guy that can perform there and is not a liability elsewhere. I understand backing English in and giving him confidence but conceding another 3 votes to Grundy is not it. Trengove should in the very least be in the mix as a reliable backup option for basically everywhere.

Cavarra being picked was dumb, not because he shouldn't be in the side, more because it seems like it was an afterthought. If you're going to insist on playing your two praccy matches with as close to 22 as you can then make sure you are set on that 22. Instead they change their mind before round 1 and pick Cavarra who didn't get a look in. Whats the point of this 22 only bullshit. Every year we do it and every year we start poorly. Just play with 26 and atleast give yourself a chance to experiment with options and have options if not all the 22 look in form. We did need a pressure type though, so i understand why he was in the mix. Lloyd and particularly Dale were next to useless, Wallis offers nothing in terms of pressure unless the ball is literally right in front of him, no pace (also he is useless as a midfield rotation, when will they figure out he is a pure forward now). Lloyd seems to crumble when the opposition plays with intensity, but unlike Dale atleast he can get the footy occasionally. Someone like Richards would be invaluable here to atleast give us a change of pace up forward and an ability to take the game on.

Cordy kicking out is dumb, the question is though if the gameplan is to just kick it long on the 45s from kickouts anyway you might as well use Cordy, atleast he isn't a complete liability when the ball comes back like Daniel is (although he isn't far off on recent form). I don't know if that was our gameplan because Cordy was taking the kickouts, or Cordy was taking the kickouts because that was our gameplan. I assume it is our gameplan seeing as how we have recruited all this contested marking talent. But regardless when you have a side filled with good ball users like Williams, Suckling, Daniel, JJ (Who desperately needed to find a way into the game, this might have helped a little), Hunter and maybe Crozier getting Zaine or Gardner to do it is dumb.

We also played dumb going forward. For a half we showed a complete inability to retain the footy. We desperately needed to hold onto the footy when we got it, work our way up the ground, get some players touching it and confidence up and halt Collingwoods momentum. Instead we got at best 2 links before someone panicked and stuffed it up or we didn't quite hit a target and we turned it over. A good example is late in the second when Lloyd received it on half back. We finally started flicking it around before Lloyd panicked and went for an extremely low percentage kick to Daniel in the corridor (who wasn't even in space FFS) with two Collingwood players near him. Instant dumb turnover. It also didn't help that Gardner stuffed up two basic switches.

The biggest issue though is obviously the most baffling one. Our worst on ground were our midfield group, because unlike our forwards they actually had an opportunity to impact the game and instead they were completely lacking of intensity, confidence and composure. Our midfield group killed any chance we had of winning this game, and it's a woeful start to Bontempellis captaincy. I see people calling for Libbas inclusion to save us like they did after the GWS game, but the truth is if we are relying on a slow fringe midfielder who hasn't been genuinely good since 2016 to save our issues then we are doomed. Our saviors are Bont, Macrae and Dunkley. They need to perform.

[Jeanette54]

A performance like last night is a far greater problem at the moment than it would usually be. Without the reserves comp, player management will be severely comprised.

Players like Libba, Schache, MacLean etc cannot be run into form in the twos, in the normal manner of things. And there is nowhere for our poorly performing senior players to go, to address their concerns in match conditions.

Make no mistake, this season (if it proceeds) will be an exceptionally challenging one for our leaders, and decision makers.

And probably the biggest challenge will be how our new skipper can perform in a leadership role. Being a captain in tough times requires a very different style to that when times are good. Marcus has proved he can say, and do, all the "right" things to date, but only time will tell if he can fill the boots of a true leader in times of adversity.

[Grantysghost]

With the shorter season we can't wait for the MC to get the selections right and with shorter quarters we can't give up starts like we did last night. We have plenty of work to before the next match but the one thing more than anything that needs to be addressed is the effort the players must bring and I'm not sure why that is a somewhat consistent theme for us.
I often read about the age and experience profile of the list we put onto the ground to explain our losses but last night is proof that it's nowhere near as important as the effort the players bring to the contest.

Interesting to hear Buckley saying the shorter quarters suit their manic pressure style. It's somewhat like having no bench restrictions in a way. They can keep pushing the entire game. We want it to open up. Interesting I think.

Edit : in no way an excuse for last night, it's a bigger picture thought. Last night was perfectly explained by soupaman above.

[Sedat]

It's usually hard to judge selection when the putrid effort your team puts in renders any plan useless, but all the same like everyone I think there were quite a few things wrong with how we setup........
Excellent summary and hard to argue with almost any of it. Just on Libba, I would say he is a natural extractor and would have assisted greatly in counter-balancing our dreadful clearance differential when it was clear the A team were off their game and getting absolutely belted by Adams, Pendlebury and co in at the coal face. Libba also has the defensive ability to clamp down on a rampant opposition mid if needed. We don't hard tag as a rule but whenever we have done recently it has been Libba doing the job.

Agree that Bont, Macrae and Dunks could not play any worse and I am confident they will respond positively next week.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agree that Bont, Macrae and Dunks could not play any worse and I am confident they will respond positively next week.

As much as I'd like to agree with that, our big 3 have been flat out embarrassed a few times (v Carlton, v GWS and now v Pies). Two of those now are back to back in big games which is concerning.

This can happen to any team, but three times in less than a year in such dramatic circumstances? I don't recall our 2016 side ever capitulating like this. I think of the Geelong game late in that season when everything was against us with an incredible amount of injuries and yet we played to the final bell admirably.

This side is far more talented than 2016 but they're also far more mentally fragile. Not sure how we fix this which is what is so disappointing about last night after a summer of banging the drums about how much we've been stewing over last year's final.

[GVGjr]

Interesting to hear Buckley saying the shorter quarters suit their manic pressure style. It's somewhat like having no bench restrictions in a way. They can keep pushing the entire game. We want it to open up. Interesting I think.

Edit : in no way an excuse for last night, it's a bigger picture thought. Last night was perfectly explained by soupaman above.

Their midfield certainly seemed better prepared so it's a good observation
I think we are a genuine midfielder light on most weeks preferring the versatility flankers might offer. With McLean not in the side it seemed like we were another option down as well. We have to get the selections right against Carlton

Agreed about soupaman's brilliant summary, he's a great contributor to the site.

[soupman]

Excellent summary and hard to argue with almost any of it. Just on Libba, I would say he is a natural extractor and would have assisted greatly in counter-balancing our dreadful clearance differential when it was clear the A team were off their game and getting absolutely belted by Adams, Pendlebury and co in at the coal face. Libba also has the defensive ability to clamp down on a rampant opposition mid if needed. We don't hard tag as a rule but whenever we have done recently it has been Libba doing the job.

I get what you're saying, but bringing in Libba so that we have a plan B in case our a grade midfield doesn't turn up isn't a great plan imo, especially when you consider how little Libba offers elsewhere. I think if he isn't good enough to be primarily in the side as an extractor he shouldn't be in the side. Shame because he has been such a significant contributor in the past

[Sedat]

As much as I'd like to agree with that, our big 3 have been flat out embarrassed a few times (v Carlton, v GWS and now v Pies). Two of those now are back to back in big games which is concerning.

This can happen to any team, but three times in less than a year in such dramatic circumstances? I don't recall our 2016 side ever capitulating like this. I think of the Geelong game late in that season when everything was against us with an incredible amount of injuries and yet we played to the final bell admirably.

This side is far more talented than 2016 but they're also far more mentally fragile. Not sure how we fix this which is what is so disappointing about last night after a summer of banging the drums about how much we've been stewing over last year's final.
2016 team contained Clay Smith, Picken, Matty Boyd, Morris, and also Libba when finals started. There is absolutely no fragility in that group, and their hardness and fierce desire to win every single contest has not been adequately replaced thus far.

Our balance is askew. We put little time and effort into negating opposition players, and rely on our midfield to give us first use. As your examples allude, when the midfield/ruck gets decimated, we look like the emperor with no clothes. Professional, hardened teams like GWS and Colingwood will demolish anybody that shows weakness at the contest. Our big 3 mids are simply too good to allow abominations like last night to happen often, but we still need to balance out the style of play with additional personnel who can lift us when we are not at our best. We do have a large number of players who go into their shell when confronted by rabid opposition - it doesn't matter how talented they are, they will continue to have no impact when it is really needed. A number of players are on notice in that regard.

As for our stoppage tactics and ruck set up, I actually felt sorry for English last night because he was so clinically, predictably and easily dismantled and torn apart, he had nowhere to hide because there was no proper support to back him up. The folly of the concept of 'putting games into him' was exposed with cold and ruthless efficiency last night (not for the first time), not just by Grundy but by an American project player built like a match stick. We simply need Sweet or Trengove in to balance the team structure and actually give English the chance to play to his strengths. How many times will it take to play English as virtual lone ruckman and get slaughtered before it adversely affects his own confidence long term? It goes without saying that it makes winning more difficult.

[Sedat]

I get what you're saying, but bringing in Libba so that we have a plan B in case our a grade midfield doesn't turn up isn't a great plan imo, especially when you consider how little Libba offers elsewhere. I think if he isn't good enough to be primarily in the side as an extractor he shouldn't be in the side. Shame because he has been such a significant contributor in the past
I would say Libba is not a plan B and most definitely earns a spot in our best 22 when fit. He will halve contests at worst and give Bont a valuable chop out so he can go forward and provide headaches for opposition defenders. Before his knee injury in the second game against Carlton last year, Libba had a very good first half of the season.

He takes Wallis' place for mine, who is not and will never be an AFL quality midfielder.

[bornadog]

Taps to advantage or any other ruck advantage can at a minimum be negated if we have a midfield group willing to do it. Tonight we didn't, many times last year we showed we could when we were committed to the cause.

Nobody who is sane would have actually thought English improved exponentially over the course of the preseason to guarantee the issues we saw with him last year wouldn't have been there tonight. I expected him to struggle, it seems our midfield either backed him in too optimistically or were sleeping at the wheel. What I saw from the midfield suggests they were suffering from the latter issue, We gave away silly free kicks which is a big sign, and were sloppy and didn't tackle.

The good news is all of this is related to something that can be changed with a different mindset. Our blue chip midfielders need to get their hands dirty and provide cover for everyone else who is helping them to try and get a result.
.

One of the smart things Buckley did was to sit on our three mids. I noticed in the background, especially at ball ups, Dunkley was continually held and whenever Bont went for the ball he was pounced on. Collingwood to their credit, did their homework on our mids and we had no answer. I don't believe we had the midfield power to rotate too many through there last night. Lippa and Libba are needed back in the team to help out. Wallis is really not a centre bounce mid anymore, he has always lacked the pace to spread.

As for Cox, 7 hitouts and 4 marks, and 9 disposals, is not exactly world beating. Yes English got thrashed by the best ruckman in the AFL and will once more learn and gain some experience.

[mjp]

I am looking forward to reading MJP's take in the next day or so.
He usually makes me want to delete my posts following each game.
Tonight is no different! Come on down Mike!

I was working so didn't watch it live...and I have been at work since 4am so haven't been too keen on watching the replay this morning.

I don't know. If it is one of those effort based losses like the elimination final I am not sure I have too many nice things to say...I think the board went into meltdown when I suggested Macrae should be dropped at one point last year for having terrible body language and being a sook.

I'll watch it I guess but this group is really prone to putting forth crap effort and no matter what the coaches plan or do, if the effort isn't there it doesn't matter a cracker...Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.

(Not) looking forward to watching the game.

[bornadog]

I was working so didn't watch it live...and I have been at work since 4am so haven't been too keen on watching the replay this morning.

I don't know. If it is one of those effort based losses like the elimination final I am not sure I have too many nice things to say...I think the board went into meltdown when I suggested Macrae should be dropped at one point last year for having terrible body language and being a sook.

I'll watch it I guess but this group is really prone to putting forth crap effort and no matter what the coaches plan or do, if the effort isn't there it doesn't matter a cracker...Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.

(Not) looking forward to watching the game.

Well this sums it up:


We didn’t come with an appetite to compete, which is really disappointing because we’ve trained all summer and that’s been something that we’ve been really good at.” - Caleb Daniel

[Sedat]

Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.
GWS gave out some valuable lessons in the EF last year. Unfortunately, Collingwood were the only ones who did their homework last night.

There is now a very effective and proven method in place to completely dismantle our game plan. Every club will have taken note - it will be very interesting to see how our players and coaching staff respond to this challenge.

[GVGjr]

I was working so didn't watch it live...and I have been at work since 4am so haven't been too keen on watching the replay this morning.

I don't know. If it is one of those effort based losses like the elimination final I am not sure I have too many nice things to say...I think the board went into meltdown when I suggested Macrae should be dropped at one point last year for having terrible body language and being a sook.

I'll watch it I guess but this group is really prone to putting forth crap effort and no matter what the coaches plan or do, if the effort isn't there it doesn't matter a cracker...Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.

(Not) looking forward to watching the game.

Years back both Wallis and Liberatore (maybe one or two more) came back from their end of season break early determined to get into the gym and get stronger so that specifically Lenny Hayes would not slam them around the following year. I wonder if the GWS performance was really the yardstick we used this summer as motivation?
Sure we talked about it but based on last night it wasn't evident there was no line in the sand on the effort and vigor we bring

Yes MJP it had all the signs of one of those 'effort based losses' that plagued us (no pun intended) last year and the signs were there early in the game. If you can bring yourself to watch it I think we would appreciate your thoughts

[soupman]

I would say Libba is not a plan B and most definitely earns a spot in our best 22 when fit. He will halve contests at worst and give Bont a valuable chop out so he can go forward and provide headaches for opposition defenders. Before his knee injury in the second game against Carlton last year, Libba had a very good first half of the season.

He takes Wallis' place for mine, who is not and will never be an AFL quality midfielder.

Yeah i don't rate Wallis as a mid at all either. It's always baffled me that after thay season where Mclean excelled as a mid and Wallis as a forward they have instead committed to Mclean as almost a pure forward and Wallis playing 5050.

Wallis, Lloyd and Dale shoukd be competingfor at most 2 spots, as they are all too similiar and offer no versatility.

Libba could take one of their spots, but again im just not convinced that he is in our full time midfield brigade and he doesnt offer as much as say Lipinski or Smith as a second tier option.


GWS gave out some valuable lessons in the EF last year. Unfortunately, Collingwood were the only ones who did their homework last night.

There is now a very effective and proven method in place to completely dismantle our game plan. Every club will have taken note - it will be very interesting to see how our players and coaching staff respond to this challenge.

It's the JJ debacle all over again, just on a bigger scale. We get bullied, play the victim, and in doing so ensure it happens forever and we struggle to get our confidence back. Every single club will just be aggressive as hell whenever they play us and we will go into our shells.

[Danjul]

I think all these comments about attitude are becoming a distraction.

7 easy scoring shots to 1 in the first quarter. 14 to 4 by half time. Suggests the problem was structural.

The game the week before offered some clues that it might happen. Look at the contested marks in the area 10 to 25 metres from the opposition goal. Port was able to keep setting them up after Dixon and Lycett were out.

No surprise Cox and Grundy had 6 scores from close in. lucky for us they kicked badly.

Both port and Collingwood set up moves from half back to goal line in the same way.

They had a workable plan and they made it work. I don’t think we looked like we had a plan to start with.

[SonofScray]

It's the JJ debacle all over again, just on a bigger scale. We get bullied, play the victim, and in doing so ensure it happens forever and we struggle to get our confidence back. Every single club will just be aggressive as hell whenever they play us and we will go into our shells.
Great call.

Many times last year when we were really battling, I'd turn to my mate and say this game needs two goals and a fight. When a team is piling on scoreboard pressure, it just gets away from us and we seem to have awful trouble turning the tide. We are capable of hitting the scoreboard, but rarely seem up for the fight.

It's an indictment on the group. Pansies.

[comrade]

It's an indictment on the group. Pansies.

I won't repeat what I wrote to my brother lest I get accused of being a right wing troll, but I will say that the vast majority of our players aren't exactly the sort you'd want beside you in the trenches when the **** really hits the fan.

I miss the days when we had Matty B, Mozza, Picko, Clay never taking a backward step.

[Bulldog4life]

What a shocking performance. At least 5 of those players out there last night wouldn't be in my AFL side. This game has managed to be the one that breaks my father after 60 years. He's cancelled his membership for the first time in his history of supporting the club. Who can blame him.

Me. I have followed the dogs more years than your father mate and there is no way I would ever cancel my membership. Wasn't he there in 1989? We nearly bloody lost our club.

[Avoid the rush]

I think all these comments about attitude are becoming a distraction.

7 easy scoring shots to 1 in the first quarter. 14 to 4 by half time. Suggests the problem was structural.

The game the week before offered some clues that it might happen. Look at the contested marks in the area 10 to 25 metres from the opposition goal. Port was able to keep setting them up after Dixon and Lycett were out.

No surprise Cox and Grundy had 6 scores from close in. lucky for us they kicked badly.

Both port and Collingwood set up moves from half back to goal line in the same way.

They had a workable plan and they made it work. I don’t think we looked like we had a plan to start with.


I really think we need to be positive, going into our next match, whenever that may be. Bont will never again be as ineffective as he was last night. We need some muscle and I feel that Sweet could be someone that may make us walk taller!! Sweet in for Gardiner who tries hard....but no. Young to the backline and keep him there till we know for sure if he can or cannot! Play English up forward and change with Sweet when the opposition bigger guy has a break. Dickson or Richards in for Cavarra and Lapinski in for either Wallis or Caleb ( I hate myself for suggesting this) or whomever is not doing what is required. Libba back and we look tougher by miles. Teams are gonna be coming for us every week and we need to respond!!!!

[josie]

I get the calls for Gardner to be dropped but felt Cavarra did ok with very limited opportunities. Also, unlike his mores esteemed teammates at least most of Cavarra’s tackles stuck and I felt he had more tenacity too. Hope Bevo gives him another chance next week if indeed we play next week.

Bailey Dale should be in cross hairs and I though Dunkley and Lloyd were poor too.

[azabob]

I won't repeat what I wrote to my brother lest I get accused of being a right wing troll, but I will say that the vast majority of our players aren't exactly the sort you'd want beside you in the trenches when the **** really hits the fan.

I miss the days when we had Matty B, Mozza, Picko, Clay never taking a backward step.

Add in 2016 version of Liberatore and Cordy we were a tough hard team.

[FrediKanoute]

2016 team contained Clay Smith, Picken, Matty Boyd, Morris, and also Libba when finals started. There is absolutely no fragility in that group, and their hardness and fierce desire to win every single contest has not been adequately replaced thus far.

Our balance is askew. We put little time and effort into negating opposition players, and rely on our midfield to give us first use. As your examples allude, when the midfield/ruck gets decimated, we look like the emperor with no clothes. Professional, hardened teams like GWS and Colingwood will demolish anybody that shows weakness at the contest. Our big 3 mids are simply too good to allow abominations like last night to happen often, but we still need to balance out the style of play with additional personnel who can lift us when we are not at our best. We do have a large number of players who go into their shell when confronted by rabid opposition - it doesn't matter how talented they are, they will continue to have no impact when it is really needed. A number of players are on notice in that regard.

As for our stoppage tactics and ruck set up, I actually felt sorry for English last night because he was so clinically, predictably and easily dismantled and torn apart, he had nowhere to hide because there was no proper support to back him up. The folly of the concept of 'putting games into him' was exposed with cold and ruthless efficiency last night (not for the first time), not just by Grundy but by an American project player built like a match stick. We simply need Sweet or Trengove in to balance the team structure and actually give English the chance to play to his strengths. How many times will it take to play English as virtual lone ruckman and get slaughtered before it adversely affects his own confidence long term? It goes without saying that it makes winning more difficult.

We need Trengove in the team full stop. The backline go dismantled again

[FrediKanoute]

I was working so didn't watch it live...and I have been at work since 4am so haven't been too keen on watching the replay this morning.

I don't know. If it is one of those effort based losses like the elimination final I am not sure I have too many nice things to say...I think the board went into meltdown when I suggested Macrae should be dropped at one point last year for having terrible body language and being a sook.

I'll watch it I guess but this group is really prone to putting forth crap effort and no matter what the coaches plan or do, if the effort isn't there it doesn't matter a cracker...Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.

(Not) looking forward to watching the game.

Save yourself. It was right up there with Round 1 1996

[Danjul]

Add in 2016 version of Liberatore and Cordy we were a tough hard team.
Didn’t Cordy play as a forward in our 2016 finals.

I thought his brilliant snap goals got us over the Giants.
I thought he kicked our first goal in the Grand Final. A high pressure shot from the boundary.

What have they done to him?

[FrediKanoute]

I get the calls for Gardner to be dropped but felt Cavarra did ok with very limited opportunities. Also, unlike his mores esteemed teammates at least most of Cavarra’s tackles stuck and I felt he had more tenacity too. Hope Bevo gives him another chance next week if indeed we play next week.

Bailey Dale should be in cross hairs and I though Dunkley and Lloyd were poor too.

Lloyd pulling out of the contest at the end ofthe second, when if he goes hard we possibly get another scoring opportunity for me is grounds enough to be dropped. It was as bad as Darling in the 2016 Elimination final.

[azabob]

Didn’t Cordy play as a forward in our 2016 finals.

I thought his brilliant snap goals got us over the Giants.
I thought he kicked our first goal in the Grand Final. A high pressure shot from the boundary.

What have they done to him?

Yes, he played as a defensive type forward.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Yes, he played as a defensive type forward.

Does anyone have any insight into why Cordy was seen fit to be used in that capacity on the biggest stage, and acquited himself well, but has not neen seen there ever since?

Was it situational, and circumstances have not presented again where it has been a viable option to consider?
Having seen his poor kicking of late, I'm loathe to consider it, but it does intrigue me as to how it was once an option we used and now its not.

[bornadog]

Does anyone have any insight into why Cordy was seen fit to be used in that capacity on the biggest stage, and acquitted himself well, but has not been seen there ever since?

Was it situational, and circumstances have not presented again where it has been a viable option to consider?
Having seen his poor kicking of late, I'm loathe to consider it, but it does intrigue me as to how it was once an option we used and now its not.

He played 11 games in total during 2016, so he was neither a backman or forward, also there was no room in the backline as we had Hamling and Roberts.

I don't believe he is a forward. We have tried him up forward a few times in the past couple of years and it hasn't worked.

[bornadog]

I get the calls for Gardner to be dropped but felt Cavarra did ok with very limited opportunities. Also, unlike his mores esteemed teammates at least most of Cavarra’s tackles stuck and I felt he had more tenacity too. Hope Bevo gives him another chance next week if indeed we play next week.

Bailey Dale should be in cross hairs and I though Dunkley and Lloyd were poor too.

I prefer to give Cavarra another go and drop Dale if it was out of those two

[GVGjr]

Does anyone have any insight into why Cordy was seen fit to be used in that capacity on the biggest stage, and acquited himself well, but has not neen seen there ever since?

Was it situational, and circumstances have not presented again where it has been a viable option to consider?
Having seen his poor kicking of late, I'm loathe to consider it, but it does intrigue me as to how it was once an option we used and now its not.

I think we liked the fact that he could potentially play both ends of the ground but with the Hamling departure and Roberts seen as just a very good back-up Cordy settled back in as a defender

[GVGjr]

What a shocking performance. At least 5 of those players out there last night wouldn't be in my AFL side. This game has managed to be the one that breaks my father after 60 years. He's cancelled his membership for the first time in his history of supporting the club. Who can blame him.

I think many of us here won't be able to fathom cancelling a membership and that's what Richmond supporters were known for
Hopefully between the game on Friday and Monday morning when he might contact the club to inform them he's had a rethink.
Short of something like a merger proposal with Essendon I couldn't ever cancel my membership

While it's easy to get frustrated and disappointed after a loss most of us have seen a lot worse than Friday nights effort and over a long, long time and cancelling a membership has never been considered. Suggest to him to have a rethink because it's just week one of what will be a strange season.

[Hotdog60]

Just was having a think about the selection table and because we are not behind closed doors.
Could it be possible that the selection was a gamble but may be their hands were tied due to availability.
Lippa was mention to miss a week with concussion and that's because it's a hot topic but could other players have niggles that they thought for round one wasn't worth the risk and so went with second or third choice players and with no VFL could only use training results for selection.
Not excusing the rubbish that was thrown out on Friday night but there could have been other controlling factors. I just can't believe some players getting a run before others.

[G-Mo77]

What a shocking performance. At least 5 of those players out there last night wouldn't be in my AFL side. This game has managed to be the one that breaks my father after 60 years. He's cancelled his membership for the first time in his history of supporting the club. Who can blame him.

When expectations are so high a let down like that hurts. I haven't bought into the hype, I still think we're a couple of years away from becoming a consistent quality side. Defensively we are weak all over the ground until that improves drastically we won't be troubling many of the elite teams in the comp.

[GVGjr]

Just was having a think about the selection table and because we are not behind closed doors.
Could it be possible that the selection was a gamble but may be their hands were tied due to availability.
Lippa was mention to miss a week with concussion and that's because it's a hot topic but could other players have niggles that they thought for round one wasn't worth the risk and so went with second or third choice players and with no VFL could only use training results for selection.
Not excusing the rubbish that was thrown out on Friday night but there could have been other controlling factors. I just can't believe some players getting a run before others.

Which selections do you think we gambled on Hotdog60?

We had some decent options on the bench and some that didn't make the bench
We have a deep playing list and our injury list isn't excessive so Lipinski's absence should be easily covered.

[Hotdog60]

Which selections do you think we gambled on Hotdog60?

We had some decent options on the bench and some that didn't make the bench
We have a deep playing list and our injury list isn't excessive so Lipinski's absence should be easily covered.

As others have already said the selection of Gardner when Young could have done the same job and may be a little better that would have given us an option of more speed could we have given Vandermeer or Lynch a go. Not saying they would be any better but I feel we were slow to get to the contest and effort plays a part. No VFL takes away those guys chances to show their wares. R.Smith didn't a run yet he does try his best.
On a side note after the first quarter I thought about swapping Gardner with Naughton to help out defense and to get him into the game.

[mjp]

I think all these comments about attitude are becoming a distraction.

7 easy scoring shots to 1 in the first quarter. 14 to 4 by half time. Suggests the problem was structural.


I'm pretty baffled by this comment.

I guess it is chicken and egg, but to me it is impossible to tell if the structure is/will work when the effort is so poor. There are a lot of comments on this thread about 'missed tackles' but they aren't being missed - they just aren't being laid at all. We had 7 players - including our #1 ruckman who was at one million clearances - who didn't lay a single tackle (the others in numerical order were Young, Wood, Cordy, Bailey Dale, Williams and JJ). No tackles for running players like JJ and Williams? That's almost impossible! No tackles for a player like Dale who must have it on the very tip top of his IDP?

It gets worse. There were another 8 freaking players who only had ONE. Now - I think Cavarra has been robbed since he is listed with one and I have him with two, but we were MINUS 70 for possession (get your head around that for a second) AND somehow still MINUS 8 for tackles. That should be completely impossible.

Basically, I don't think we have any idea about our game - either style or structure - based on Friday's game 'cos we simply didn't play football.

[GVGjr]

I'm pretty baffled by this comment.

I guess it is chicken and egg, but to me it is impossible to tell if the structure is/will work when the effort is so poor. There are a lot of comments on this thread about 'missed tackles' but they aren't being missed - they just aren't being laid at all. We had 7 players - including our #1 ruckman who was at one million clearances - who didn't lay a single tackle (the others in numerical order were Young, Wood, Cordy, Bailey Dale, Williams and JJ). No tackles for running players like JJ and Williams? That's almost impossible! No tackles for a player like Dale who must have it on the very tip top of his IDP?

It gets worse. There were another 8 freaking players who only had ONE. Now - I think Cavarra has been robbed since he is listed with one and I have him with two, but we were MINUS 70 for possession (get your head around that for a second) AND somehow still MINUS 8 for tackles. That should be completely impossible.

Basically, I don't think we have any idea about our game - either style or structure - based on Friday's game 'cos we simply didn't play football.

All the signs of one of our effort/energy deficient games. Led to the ball for the majority of the game but did lift our intensity with our work ethic. I'd normally be all over the Match Committee thread but it's hard to predict what direction we will take. History indicates we might have one and potentially another change but it's hard to see the 3 to 5 changes we probably need to make happening

[EasternWest]

I'm pretty baffled by this comment.

I guess it is chicken and egg, but to me it is impossible to tell if the structure is/will work when the effort is so poor. There are a lot of comments on this thread about 'missed tackles' but they aren't being missed - they just aren't being laid at all. We had 7 players - including our #1 ruckman who was at one million clearances - who didn't lay a single tackle (the others in numerical order were Young, Wood, Cordy, Bailey Dale, Williams and JJ). No tackles for running players like JJ and Williams? That's almost impossible! No tackles for a player like Dale who must have it on the very tip top of his IDP?

It gets worse. There were another 8 freaking players who only had ONE. Now - I think Cavarra has been robbed since he is listed with one and I have him with two, but we were MINUS 70 for possession (get your head around that for a second) AND somehow still MINUS 8 for tackles. That should be completely impossible.

Basically, I don't think we have any idea about our game - either style or structure - based on Friday's game 'cos we simply didn't play football.

I'm just impressed that you knew what you were going to watch and still sat through that absolute tripe.

[Danjul]

I'm pretty baffled by this comment.

I guess it is chicken and egg, but to me it is impossible to tell if the structure is/will work when the effort is so poor. There are a lot of comments on this thread about 'missed tackles' but they aren't being missed - they just aren't being laid at all. We had 7 players - including our #1 ruckman who was at one million clearances - who didn't lay a single tackle (the others in numerical order were Young, Wood, Cordy, Bailey Dale, Williams and JJ). No tackles for running players like JJ and Williams? That's almost impossible! No tackles for a player like Dale who must have it on the very tip top of his IDP?

It gets worse. There were another 8 freaking players who only had ONE. Now - I think Cavarra has been robbed since he is listed with one and I have him with two, but we were MINUS 70 for possession (get your head around that for a second) AND somehow still MINUS 8 for tackles. That should be completely impossible.

Basically, I don't think we have any idea about our game - either style or structure - based on Friday's game 'cos we simply didn't play football.

The numbers you quote suggest something deeper is going on. It is impossible for so many to be disinterested in what they are doing. Even this virus is not that contagious.

The answer is simply
“ our tactics are based on only 2 of - the ball, our players, their players - being in the same place at the same time “

When it’s the first two: the Essendon game.
when it’s one and three: GWS, second half against Port, Collingwood.

The solution is simply
get closer to your opponent.

Stop letting the opposition chip the ball around in space from half back to half forward to set up an easy kick Into the goal zone .

[mjp]

The solution is simply
get closer to your opponent.

Stop letting the opposition chip the ball around in space from half back to half forward to set up an easy kick Into the goal zone .

But isn't that effort and intensity?

I agree that we are/seemed quite happy to concede the 'hit up' space BTA. It is interesting as BTA the general rule is to take the hit up space if your opponent is in front of the ball and take the advantage space if your opponent is lateral/behind the ball. But we dont (or at least didn't) do that on Friday. I can't agree with you that this is 'structural' because the whole 'who plays where' (or rather, what type of player plays where) shouldn't impact on these sort of fundamentals.

But we do seem happy to do this defensively and even at our best are often happy to concede the 'easy one' from which our opponents can use a kicking game to transition the ball...I don't think it is structural but a bit more urgency at the D2 layer certainly wouldn't go astray with regards minimising opposition entries into D50 and ultimately exposing our defenders to marking contests.

[mjp]

I'm just impressed that you knew what you were going to watch and still sat through that absolute tripe.

Yeah, well, what can I say. I have a sickness. I love the dogs and this might be the only time they play this year.

[Hotdog60]

I was just reading some tweets on the Dogs site that were from America.
All their sport has been cancelled and so they are discovering AFL and they are excited about our sport since their blinkers have been removed.
Fantastic results for the AFL if the big US sports media get on board if there is a boost in interest.
The most disappointing aspect of this whole thing is we are Red, Whits and Blue, So we could gain a good size following if it took off over there and we blow our opportunity by show casing the tripe on Friday night.
If we could have turned on a late last year performance the Yanks would have been even more impressed.
Instead mentioned in those tweets was Essendon. :mad:

[Mantis]

Yeah, well, what can I say. I have a sickness. I love the dogs and this might be the only time they play this year.

And what fond memories we will all have from that experience.

[Danjul]

But isn't that effort and intensity?

I agree that we are/seemed quite happy to concede the 'hit up' space BTA.

But we do seem happy to do this defensively and even at our best are often happy to concede the 'easy one' from which our opponents can use a kicking game to transition the ball...I don't think it is structural but a bit more urgency at the D2 layer certainly wouldn't go astray with regards minimising opposition entries into D50 and ultimately exposing our defenders to marking contests.
A friend pointed out to me in 2016 that our strategy seemed to be allow the opposition to take the ball close to goal. If Morris didn’t get it we had Hamling and Roberts spoil in the air. Then use Boyd and Biggs to mop up and run the ball out to players set up to receive.

If this is still the game plan it cannot work with Cordy at full back (too short) and Keath (an interceptor- not body on body).

At present , when the opposing team gets the ball on the backline they chip it wide to someone who knows to run in for a mark. Their opponent then arrives to stand the mark. Then there’s 2 scenarios.

1. Four chips to the 50 metre arc.
2. An outside runner at full speed spears a long pass directly towards goal.

See this repeatedly most games since mid 2017. It works well against us. We continue to allow it.

[bornadog]

A friend pointed out to me in 2016 that our strategy seemed to be allow the opposition to take the ball close to goal. If Morris didn’t get it we had Hamling and Roberts spoil in the air. Then use Boyd and Biggs to mop up and run the ball out to players set up to receive.

If this is still the game plan it cannot work with Cordy at full back (too short) and Keath (an interceptor- not body on body).

At present , when the opposing team gets the ball on the backline they chip it wide to someone who knows to run in for a mark. Their opponent then arrives to stand the mark. Then there’s 2 scenarios.

1. Four chips to the 50 metre arc.
2. An outside runner at full speed spears a long pass directly towards goal.

See this repeatedly most games since mid 2017. It works well against us. We continue to allow it.

The second half of last year we had one of the best defences in the AFL - fact, because we conceded the least amount of goals.

It fell apart in the elimination final and the Collingwood game. Not because we didn't have a great defence, but because, when you lose the centre clearances continually and the ball is pumped into the backline continually it makes it hard to defend.

Football is pretty predictable these days. You win the clearances, and stoppages, you generally win most games, and to do that you need a crack midfield - that is why mids dominate the Brownlow counts. Our mids in the last two games got done like a dinner. Maybe that is directly because of the rucks as you point out, but that is also fact.

[GVGjr]

From foxsports

It’s only Round 1, but Collingwood coach Nathan Buckley has already set the blueprint for 16 other clubs on how to tame the Western Bulldogs this season.

The Magpies on Friday night produced one of the more powerful Round 1 statements for sometime, thumping their fellow finals fancies by 52 points at Marvel Stadium.

While Collingwood managed 86 points itself, it restricted the Bulldogs – the third-best offence in the AFL last season – to a miserly 34 points. Even more startling was the fact the Dogs only registered 22 inside 50s for the match.

And it all came about because of the Magpies’ relentless defensive pressure, according to legendary Hawthorn goalkicker Jason Dunstall.

At half-time, the Pies had a Champion Data pressure rating of 219, which was a club record.

“That’s noticeable out there. When Collingwood’s got the ball, the Bulldogs press is very, very average. But when it’s the other way around, they’re savage,” Dunstall told Fox Footy.

Dual premiership Kangaroo David King said the Dogs “couldn’t move the ball” and lauded “fantastic defensive coaching” from the Pies.

“The Dogs want to counter-attack from the defensive end of the ground … but the Pies didn’t give them an inch,” King told Fox Footy.

“We were watching this all night, how quickly they closed the space, and even if they got one pass free, the next pass was clamped. That’s why the Dogs only had 22 inside 50s.”

St Kilda legend Nick Riewoldt added: “They want to get the ball in motion, the Bulldogs, but the link and overlap-type play that makes them so dangerous … it was all this stagnant, kick-mark, back-off-the-mark pressure until the mistake would come – and it came often.”

In 2019, the Bulldogs were the No. 1 team in the AFL at transitioning the ball from their defensive 50 to attacking 50, according to Champion Data.

It’s why they averaged 34 points per game from their defensive half of the ground.

But on Friday night, they only managed a paltry seven points from their back-half.

“They did not look like it, the Dogs – and you have to take your hat off to Nathan Buckley and the planning they did to combat the change of direction and movement of the Dogs,” Dunstall told Fox Footy.

“That’s as good as you’ll see.”

[angelopetraglia]

At least the match committee is going to have 10 weeks to review the game.

[azabob]

At least the match committee is going to have 10 weeks to review the game.

I’m afraid the MC already had 5 months to review our game plan and we still came up blank.

[GVGjr]

I’m afraid the MC already had 5 months to review our game plan and we still came up blank.

The players had they same time to address their energy levels and the effort they brought to the game as well and now will have another period of time to have a rethink. If the elimination final was a wake up call for them that they seemed to say then our planning just hasn't worked. GWS and Collingwood have shown the competition what works against us so we have to know it's coming again and again

[Mantis]

The players had they same time to address their energy levels and the effort they brought to the game as well and now will have another period of time to have a rethink. If the elimination final was a wake up call for them that they seemed to say then our planning just hasn't worked. GWS and Collingwood have shown the competition what works against us so we have to know it's coming again and again

Interesting how the FS article refers to our lack of run from behind the ball, but when you have a starting backline of Crozier & Wood who just bomb it down the line, Cordy & Gardner who both can’t kick and then Keath & Williams who are pretty much new players it doesn’t give you many options. Why JJ started on a wing, Suckling started up forward and Daniel on the bench is beyond me.

We also started an AA mid on the pine in lieu of a 19yo ( abit a hugely talented 19yo) which had me scratching my head. If you have what is lauded as the best midfield in the comp then in card playing style ‘lead them like you got them!’

[jeemak]

From foxsports

It’s only Round 1, but Collingwood coach Nathan Buckley has already set the blueprint for 16 other clubs on how to tame the Western Bulldogs this season.

The Magpies on Friday night produced one of the more powerful Round 1 statements for sometime, thumping their fellow finals fancies by 52 points at Marvel Stadium.

While Collingwood managed 86 points itself, it restricted the Bulldogs – the third-best offence in the AFL last season – to a miserly 34 points. Even more startling was the fact the Dogs only registered 22 inside 50s for the match.

And it all came about because of the Magpies’ relentless defensive pressure, according to legendary Hawthorn goalkicker Jason Dunstall.

At half-time, the Pies had a Champion Data pressure rating of 219, which was a club record.

“That’s noticeable out there. When Collingwood’s got the ball, the Bulldogs press is very, very average. But when it’s the other way around, they’re savage,” Dunstall told Fox Footy.

Dual premiership Kangaroo David King said the Dogs “couldn’t move the ball” and lauded “fantastic defensive coaching” from the Pies.

“The Dogs want to counter-attack from the defensive end of the ground … but the Pies didn’t give them an inch,” King told Fox Footy.

“We were watching this all night, how quickly they closed the space, and even if they got one pass free, the next pass was clamped. That’s why the Dogs only had 22 inside 50s.”

St Kilda legend Nick Riewoldt added: “They want to get the ball in motion, the Bulldogs, but the link and overlap-type play that makes them so dangerous … it was all this stagnant, kick-mark, back-off-the-mark pressure until the mistake would come – and it came often.”

In 2019, the Bulldogs were the No. 1 team in the AFL at transitioning the ball from their defensive 50 to attacking 50, according to Champion Data.

It’s why they averaged 34 points per game from their defensive half of the ground.

But on Friday night, they only managed a paltry seven points from their back-half.

“They did not look like it, the Dogs – and you have to take your hat off to Nathan Buckley and the planning they did to combat the change of direction and movement of the Dogs,” Dunstall told Fox Footy.

“That’s as good as you’ll see.”

Isn't this the blueprint for beating every team in the league? Even Geelong with their slow movement from the back half are stymied when they don't dominate the middle of the ground and the space on the exit is closed by an effective zone defence.

So much of what Collingwood was able to do to us was between the ears. Once we turned up lethargic or disinterested, or whatever the dumpster fire attitude was, and Collingwood played to their capacity we were always going to witness what we witnessed.

If our midfield doesn't compete and continually relinquishes territory this will be the outcome against only mildly competent sides. Good sides will do to us what Collingwood did. That so called experts can't put two and two together to figure that out, and think that pressure on the exit is some type of coaching brilliance is a bit surprising to me.