Rating our list 2020

[Hotdog60]

I thought with the delay of the football it's time to assess our list so I hope I've started this in the right way.
We can evaluate each player on our list starting with the highest number Lin Jong down to Matthew Suckling.
The poll will run for a week and when your post in the poll if you can give a reason on your thoughts so we can share your insights.
At the end we'll see how our list looks in the eyes of WOOF members.

[Hotdog60]

A few stats:
Age : 22
Height: 205cm
Weight: 93Kg
Games:29

English was taken with the Western Bulldogs' first selection in the 2016 NAB AFL Draft, pick 19 overall and made his senior debut for the Club in Round 10 against St.Kilda. Cited as the most talented ruckman available in the 2016 draft pool by experts, the 205cm English boasts genuine midfield presence. Agile and athletic, the 19-year-old West Australian impressed scouts with his ability to cover the ground and pick up possessions – he averaged 15.6 disposals and 22.8 hitouts per contest for the WAFL Colts according to Champion Data. A very good kick for his size, English also possesses exceptionally clean hands and his follow up from his ruck work is first class. English finished 2017 having played two senior games, and 15 VFL games where he averaged 13 disposals, four marks and 18 hitouts per contest. The West Australian added a further seven senior games to his resume in 2018, before a breakout season in 2019. English played 20 AFL matches in his third year as a Bulldog after seven games across his first two seasons, impressing with his competitiveness in the air, mobility around the ground and follow-up efforts around the ball. English has started to look at home at the top level – and committed to a two-year extension in 2019 to call VU Whitten Oval home until the end of 2022.

LINK (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/players/1409/tim-english#playerbio)

[GVGjr]

He's an interesting one. I have no doubt he will get there but he is just short of the mark at the moment when compared to the best ruck man in the competition. I rate his versatility though and I've read that Danjul believes he can be a more than effective forward
He needs to improve his skill set when dropping back to help out defenders because at 205cm tall he shouldn't get out marked.

[The Pie Man]

I think he'd benefit playing more forward right now - he might not be physically ready for the no.1 ruck role until he's 25, but what a player he could be from that point on.

I would still play him, I think he could be a real handful forward. How you fit him there given our forward options is another question.

[Happy Days]

Tim is clearly an AFL talent, but I’m more and more coming around to him not being a ruckman. All the improvement I saw in the pre-season was quickly cast aside by getting mauled even worse by Grundy than he was twice last season.

Ruck work is a real, tangible, difficult skill that we shouldn’t just assume someone will grasp because they’re tall. I would like to see more of him forward but our list structure doesn’t really make this possible.

[comrade]

Tim is clearly an AFL talent, but I’m more and more coming around to him not being a ruckman. All the improvement I saw in the pre-season was quickly cast aside by getting mauled even worse by Grundy than he was twice last season.

Ruck work is a real, tangible, difficult skill that we shouldn’t just assume someone will grasp because they’re tall. I would like to see more of him forward but our list structure doesn’t really make this possible.

Let's time travel to 5 years in the future.

We have Marra at full forward, English at CHF, Young at CHB and Naughton at FB. I could live with that.

Would need to find a ruckman somewhere along the line.

[Happy Days]

Let's time travel to 5 years in the future.

We have Marra at full forward, English at CHF, Young at CHB and Naughton at FB. I could live with that.

Would need to find a ruckman somewhere along the line.

The thing with ruckmen is they don’t need to be generational talents. The last million or so premiership sides have had bang average or worse ruckmen. They just need to not be wholly uncompetitive, which is unfortunately not a threshold Tim always meets.

[comrade]

The thing with ruckmen is they don’t need to be generational talents. The last million or so premiership sides have had bang average or worse ruckmen. They just need to not be wholly uncompetitive, which is unfortunately not a threshold Tim always meets.

There's probably no good reason Sweet can't develop into the sort of competitive battle axe that can at least half a contest with the opposition ruckman. He showed a bit in his hit out against North.

[bornadog]

The thing with ruckmen is they don’t need to be generational talents. The last million or so premiership sides have had bang average or worse ruckmen. They just need to not be wholly uncompetitive, which is unfortunately not a threshold Tim always meets.

On the weekend, I decided to watch the elimination Final from 2016 and then the semi against Hawks. Roughead was really smashed in the ruck and if it wasn't for the Bont, 3rd man up around the ground, we could have had a different result.

I am still confident English will get there, but let's face it, he is still young and learning.

What age did Grundy become a gun ruckman?

[josie]

And in meantime please Bevo - play Trengove if Sweet is not ready yet.

[FrediKanoute]

Give him time. Yes mauled by Grundy again, but Grundy is a man at the peak of his powers and English has barely started coming into his. He is AFL quality and will be one of the top players in the competition by the time he is 25/26 (injuries permitting).

Gordon

[Danjul]

And in meantime please Bevo - play Trengove if Sweet is not ready yet.
Sweet played well against Goldstein. Looked close to ready, best Bulldog performance against Goldstein since Tom Campbell a few years ago .

This could release English to become a champion CHF.

This would allow Bruce to be full forward and release Naughton to fix our second biggest weakness, full back.

in other words, Sweet could be the key to Solving 2 of our handicaps.

[comrade]

Sweet played well against Goldstein. Looked close to ready, best Bulldog performance against Goldstein since Tom Campbell a few years ago .

This could release English to become a champion CHF.

This would allow Bruce to be full forward and release Naughton to fix our second biggest weakness, full back.

in other words, Sweet could be the key to Solving 2 of our handicaps.

Then Marra settles in to the FF position once Bruce is done.

[Axe Man]

Sweet played well against Goldstein. Looked close to ready, best Bulldog performance against Goldstein since Tom Campbell a few years ago .

This could release English to become a champion CHF.

This would allow Bruce to be full forward and release Naughton to fix our second biggest weakness, full back.

in other words, Sweet could be the key to Solving 2 of our handicaps.

Pretty much disagree with all of this.

Sweet was OK but was well beaten by Goldstein, did about as well as I would expect English to do but without the upside.

I can't see English being anything more than a passable forward. What champion key forwards in the history of the game have similar physical attributed to English? I can't think of any. On the other hand, I and most pundits believe he has every chance of becoming one of the top ruckmen in the next few years. Unfortunately he may miss out on a year of development this year which will require us to have even more patience going forward.

I'm not completely against Naughton going back, but he has the potential to be the best key forward in the game so I would be very hesitant to make that move on a permanent basis. Keath is an excellent intercept player and if we don't have a dour stopper that's up to standard on our list then we should recruit one, they aren't the hardest players to find.

[bornadog]

Pretty much disagree with all of this.

Sweet was OK but was well beaten by Goldstein, did about as well as I would expect English to do but without the upside.

I can't see English being anything more than a passable forward. What champion key forwards in the history of the game have similar physical attributed to English? I can't think of any. On the other hand, I and most pundits believe he has every chance of becoming one of the top ruckmen in the next few years. Unfortunately he may miss out on a year of development this year which will require us to have even more patience going forward.

I'm not completely against Naughton going back, but he has the potential to be the best key forward in the game so I would be very hesitant to make that move on a permanent basis. Keath is an excellent intercept player and if we don't have a dour stopper that's up to standard on our list then we should recruit one, they aren't the hardest players to find.

Good post Axe Man, couldn't agree more.

[soupman]

Pretty much disagree with all of this.

Sweet was OK but was well beaten by Goldstein, did about as well as I would expect English to do but without the upside.

I can't see English being anything more than a passable forward. What champion key forwards in the history of the game have similar physical attributed to English? I can't think of any. On the other hand, I and most pundits believe he has every chance of becoming one of the top ruckmen in the next few years. Unfortunately he may miss out on a year of development this year which will require us to have even more patience going forward.

I'm not completely against Naughton going back, but he has the potential to be the best key forward in the game so I would be very hesitant to make that move on a permanent basis. Keath is an excellent intercept player and if we don't have a dour stopper that's up to standard on our list then we should recruit one, they aren't the hardest players to find.

I agree with all of this.

English can and should be a very good ruck, even his timidness should not be an issue in a few years. By biggest query on him is that he is not a natural hitout guy, so I doubt he ever truly becomes an above average tap out ruck, but his around the ground work should more than make up for that.

Naughton stays forward, as said above he could be the best in the game. If we need a lock down defender then the past has proven that they don't need to be amazing. They can be found with late draft picks and rookie spots, dominant key forwards cannot.

[Danjul]

Pretty much disagree with all of this.

Sweet was OK but was well beaten by Goldstein, did about as well as I would expect English to do but without the upside.

I can't see English being anything more than a passable forward. What champion key forwards in the history of the game have similar physical attributed to English? I can't think of any. On the other hand, I and most pundits believe he has every chance of becoming one of the top ruckmen in the next few years. Unfortunately he may miss out on a year of development this year which will require us to have even more patience going forward.

I'm not completely against Naughton going back, but he has the potential to be the best key forward in the game so I would be very hesitant to make that move on a permanent basis. Keath is an excellent intercept player and if we don't have a dour stopper that's up to standard on our list then we should recruit one, they aren't the hardest players to find.

Sweet was better than OK and was not well beaten by Goldstein.

last year Goldstein simply tore the Dogs apart. Something like 30 possessions and nearly 20 hitouts to advantage. Clearly best on ground. I was there and it was a masterful display.

Against Sweet (in his first game) Goldstein was ordinary with those statistics halved. He prevented Goldstein from giving North momentum.

In my eyes Sweet would not make things worse and would release a lot of potential in the team.

[bornadog]

Sweet was better than OK and was not well beaten by Goldstein.

last year Goldstein simply tore the Dogs apart. Something like 30 possessions and nearly 20 hitouts to advantage. Clearly best on ground. I was there and it was a masterful display.

Against Sweet (in his first game) Goldstein was ordinary with those statistics halved. He prevented Goldstein from giving North momentum.

In my eyes Sweet would not make things worse and would release a lot of potential in the team.

You can't compare a preseason practice match to the proper season. Currently Sweet has nil games under his belt and is completely unknown. He is potential, and that is all.

[Danjul]

I agree with all of this.

English can and should be a very good ruck, even his timidness should not be an issue in a few years. By biggest query on him is that he is not a natural hitout guy, so I doubt he ever truly becomes an above average tap out ruck, but his around the ground work should more than make up for that.

Naughton stays forward, as said above he could be the best in the game. If we need a lock down defender then the past has proven that they don't need to be amazing. They can be found with late draft picks and rookie spots, dominant key forwards cannot.

so I doubt he ever truly becomes an above average tap out ruck,

So he will spend a lot more games being beaten if he is first ruck. (Adds pressure to our own midfielders).


but his around the ground work should more than make up for that.

So it is his forward skills that makes him a champion (reads the play, good mark over his head, long straight kick).

He has proven that he is dangerous when 45 metres from goal.


should not be an issue in a few years.

We need to generate the best team results with the talent we have now.

[Danjul]

You can't compare a preseason practice match to the proper season. Currently Sweet has nil games under his belt and is completely unknown. He is potential, and that is all.

Based on the ‘non practice match ‘ all I saw was dysfunctional disaster ‘.

Without change, there’s no potential.

And I have noticed that all attempts at having a backup ruckman (Cordy, the Bont, Schache, Dunkley, Bruce, Naughton ....) have been failures taking one of our good players out of the game for a while.

Honourable mention to Cordy for his efforts against north.

[bornadog]

Comparison of Grundy to English at 22 years of age.



Player Statistics Comparison





Brodie Grundy (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-collingwood-magpies--brodie-grundy)
Name
Timothy English (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--timothy-english)


Collingwood Magpies (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-collingwood-magpies)
Team
Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)


Ruck
Position
Ruck


133
Career Games
30


Sturt
Origin
South Fremantle


April 15, 1994
Date of Birth
August 10, 1997


Turned 22 in 2016
Age
Turned 22 in 2019


203cm
Height
205cm


100kg
Weight
93kg


2012 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2012&t=N&s=P)
Last Drafted In
2016 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2016&t=N&s=P)


Round 1, Pick #18
Last Draft Position
Round 1, Pick #19


Collingwood Magpies (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-collingwood-magpies)
Last Drafted By
Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)


2016
Stats for Season
2019


21
Games
20


9.1
Kicks
6.8


9.4
Handballs
6.5


18.4
Disposals
13.2


3.9
Marks
4.0


0.5
Goals
0.4


0.4
Behinds
0.5


4.4
Tackles
3.4


26.1
Hitouts
19.1


2.0
Inside 50s
2.2


0.2
Goal Assists
0.1


1.9
Frees For
1.1


1.9
Frees Against
1.2


9.8
Contested Possessions
5.9


9.2
Uncontested Possessions
7.7


11.6
Effective Disposals
10.1


63%
Disposal Efficiency %
76.5%


4.0
Clangers
2.3


0.7
Contested Marks
1.1


0.5
Marks Inside 50
0.7


3.9
Clearances
2.1


0.9
Rebound 50s
0.6


2.3
One Percenters
5.0


0.3
Bounces
0.1


84.6
Time On Ground %
83.8


1.0
Centre Clearances
1.1


2.9
Stoppage Clearances
1.1


5.8
Score Involvements
5.2


220.0
Metres Gained
161.6


3.2
Turnovers
2.0


1.7
Intercepts
2.5


0.3
Tackles Inside 50
0.3


100.9
AFL Fantasy Score
78.5


95.7
Supercoach Score
82.7

[bornadog]

More than holds his own against Goldstein at age 22



Player Statistics Comparison





Todd Goldstein (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-kangaroos--todd-goldstein)
Name
Timothy English (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--timothy-english)


North Melbourne Kangaroos (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-kangaroos)
Team
Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)


Ruck
Position
Ruck


235
Career Games
30


Oakleigh
Origin
South Fremantle


July 1, 1988
Date of Birth
August 10, 1997


Turned 22 in 2010
Age
Turned 22 in 2019


201cm
Height
205cm


103kg
Weight
93kg


2006 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2006&t=N&s=P)
Last Drafted In
2016 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2016&t=N&s=P)


Round 3, Pick #37
Last Draft Position
Round 1, Pick #19


North Melbourne Kangaroos (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-kangaroos)
Last Drafted By
Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)


2010
Stats for Season
2019


21
Games
20


5.9
Kicks
6.8


5.8
Handballs
6.5


11.6
Disposals
13.2


4.3
Marks
4.0


0.5
Goals
0.4


0.6
Behinds
0.5


3.3
Tackles
3.4


17.5
Hitouts
19.1


1.7
Inside 50s
2.2


0.2
Goal Assists
0.1


1.2
Frees For
1.1


0.9
Frees Against
1.2


5.8
Contested Possessions
5.9


5.6
Uncontested Possessions
7.7


7.9
Effective Disposals
10.1


68.1%
Disposal Efficiency %
76.5%


1.9
Clangers
2.3


1.0
Contested Marks
1.1


0.8
Marks Inside 50
0.7


1.7
Clearances
2.1


0.6
Rebound 50s
0.6


2.0
One Percenters
5.0


0.1
Bounces
0.1


81.7
Time On Ground %
83.8



Centre Clearances
1.1



Stoppage Clearances
1.1



Score Involvements
5.2



Metres Gained
161.6



Turnovers
2.0



Intercepts
2.5



Tackles Inside 50
0.3


74.9
AFL Fantasy Score
78.5


65.8
Supercoach Score
82.7

[bornadog]

Comparison to Max Gawn at 22



Player Statistics Comparison





Max Gawn (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-melbourne-demons--max-gawn)
Name
Timothy English (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--timothy-english)


Melbourne Demons (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons)
Team
Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)


Ruck
Position
Ruck


121
Career Games
30


Sandringham Dragons
Origin
South Fremantle


December 30, 1991
Date of Birth
August 10, 1997


Turned 22 in 2013
Age
Turned 22 in 2019


208cm
Height
205cm


109kg
Weight
93kg


2009 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2009&t=N&s=P)
Last Drafted In
2016 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2016&t=N&s=P)


Round 3, Pick #34
Last Draft Position
Round 1, Pick #19


Melbourne Demons (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-melbourne-demons)
Last Drafted By
Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)


2013
Stats for Season
2019


13
Games
20


3.7
Kicks
6.8


5.2
Handballs
6.5


8.9
Disposals
13.2


2.9
Marks
4.0


0.5
Goals
0.4


0.1
Behinds
0.5


2.5
Tackles
3.4


18.6
Hitouts
19.1


0.7
Inside 50s
2.2


0.1
Goal Assists
0.1


1.4
Frees For
1.1


0.6
Frees Against
1.2


5.2
Contested Possessions
5.9


3.6
Uncontested Possessions
7.7


6.8
Effective Disposals
10.1


76.4%
Disposal Efficiency %
76.5%


1.2
Clangers
2.3


1.1
Contested Marks
1.1


0.5
Marks Inside 50
0.7


1.4
Clearances
2.1


0.3
Rebound 50s
0.6


1.6
One Percenters
5.0


0
Bounces
0.1


77.4
Time On Ground %
83.8



Centre Clearances
1.1



Stoppage Clearances
1.1



Score Involvements
5.2



Metres Gained
161.6



Turnovers
2.0



Intercepts
2.5



Tackles Inside 50
0.3


61.7
AFL Fantasy Score
78.5


67.2
Supercoach Score
82.7

[comrade]

Comparison of Grundy to English at 22 years of age.



Player Statistics Comparison





Brodie Grundy (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-collingwood-magpies--brodie-grundy)
Name
Timothy English (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-western-bulldogs--timothy-english)


Collingwood Magpies (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-collingwood-magpies)
Team
Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)


Ruck
Position
Ruck


133
Career Games
30


Sturt
Origin
South Fremantle


April 15, 1994
Date of Birth
August 10, 1997


Turned 22 in 2016
Age
Turned 22 in 2019


203cm
Height
205cm


100kg
Weight
93kg


2012 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2012&t=N&s=P)
Last Drafted In
2016 National Draft (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2016&t=N&s=P)


Round 1, Pick #18
Last Draft Position
Round 1, Pick #19


Collingwood Magpies (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-collingwood-magpies)
Last Drafted By
Western Bulldogs (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/th-western-bulldogs)


2016
Stats for Season
2019


21
Games
20


9.1
Kicks
6.8


9.4
Handballs
6.5


18.4
Disposals
13.2


3.9
Marks
4.0


0.5
Goals
0.4


0.4
Behinds
0.5


4.4
Tackles
3.4


26.1
Hitouts
19.1


2.0
Inside 50s
2.2


0.2
Goal Assists
0.1


1.9
Frees For
1.1


1.9
Frees Against
1.2


9.8
Contested Possessions
5.9


9.2
Uncontested Possessions
7.7


11.6
Effective Disposals
10.1


63%
Disposal Efficiency %
76.5%


4.0
Clangers
2.3


0.7
Contested Marks
1.1


0.5
Marks Inside 50
0.7


3.9
Clearances
2.1


0.9
Rebound 50s
0.6


2.3
One Percenters
5.0


0.3
Bounces
0.1


84.6
Time On Ground %
83.8


1.0
Centre Clearances
1.1


2.9
Stoppage Clearances
1.1


5.8
Score Involvements
5.2


220.0
Metres Gained
161.6


3.2
Turnovers
2.0


1.7
Intercepts
2.5


0.3
Tackles Inside 50
0.3


100.9
AFL Fantasy Score
78.5


95.7
Supercoach Score
82.7






Grundy well ahead.

[Danjul]

Career figures are not relevant to the discussion.

Last year English had 11 disposals and 7 hitouts, Goldstein had 28 disposals and 57 hitouts . This is what is happening in real time. It is a massive difference. It costs games.

I like English and feel he was a great draft choice and has great talent. But these tables prove that ,at the moment, it is as a forward and second ruck.

He has been 10 kg too light as a ruckman, and that’s why Grundy and Goldstein have had a history of ‘monstering’ him. It was predictable, but because people can see upside in 3 or 4 years we have to let it cost us games in the present.

Grundy was close to best on ground in 2 games the Dogs could have won last season and definitely best on ground this year. The debacle in round one had a number of clearly avoidable features, and ruck was one of them.

[GVGjr]

Career figures are not relevant to the discussion.

Last year English had 11 disposals and 7 hitouts, Goldstein had 28 disposals and 57 hitouts . This is what is happening in real time. It is a massive difference. It costs games.

I like English and feel he was a great draft choice and has great talent. But these tables prove that ,at the moment, it is as a forward and second ruck.

He has been 10 kg too light as a ruckman, and that’s why Grundy and Goldstein have had a history of ‘monstering’ him. It was predictable, but because people can see upside in 3 or 4 years we have to let it cost us games in the present.

Grundy was close to best on ground in 2 games the Dogs could have won last season and definitely best on ground this year. The debacle in round one had a number of clearly avoidable features, and ruck was one of them.

It's one of the reasons why we need someone like Trengove in the side to offer support but we do have a tendency to throw players into the deep end as it's not a position we really plan to cover.

[bornadog]

Grundy well ahead.

I wouldn't say well ahead. Average of 7 more hitouts and 5 more disposals per game. Same amount of goals, but Grundy is better at stoppages.

We are comparing a ruckman to Grundy who is an out and out gun. I don't expect English to be as good as Grundy (but you never know)

Against Gawn and Goldstien, English holds his own at age 22. whether he continues to develop, time will tell.

[Danjul]

Interesting fact.

In his first year, 2013, Gawn was one of three Melbourne ruckmen who had over 40 hitouts in a game.

(He was not carrying the ruck role single handedly.)

[bornadog]

Interesting fact.

In his first year, 2013, Gawn was one of three Melbourne ruckmen who had over 40 hitouts in a game.

(He was not carrying the ruck role single handedly.)

and Dawson Simpson had 55, Blicavs 11 and no other ruckman for Melbourne had a hitout.

[comrade]

I'm all for any personnel changes that leads to Naughton going back to the position he'll have the most positive impact on our overall performance which is in defence.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Naughton is the obvious choice as a key defender with probably Trengrove. We did look very vulnerable against Collingwood with only Cordy and Keath who appeals more as a third defender than a key back man. English is now in his third season and with the movement elsewhere of players such as Campbell and Roughead, was too inexperienced to take on the likes of Grundy and Goldstein. By comparison John Schultz was playing State football in his first season, Scott Wynd was similar, which only goes to show that you either have the necessary ruck skills required at a young age or like many others it takes a lot longer. English is in the latter category. He does however possess outstanding skills at ground level and there isn't any reason why he couldn't play forward with an occasional run on the ball.