Just a reminder why Naughton should stay Forward

[bornadog]

Anyone can play FB if they have height and a leap. All you have to do is punch the ball, and follow your man and negate them.

Now FF is different, you need to be able to take a contested mark, know how to lead, tackle and able to fend off all the backman. You have to be able to read the play and position yourself in the right spot. Naughton has all this and in his 42 games, he has played more forward than back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFP3UWu2seM

[comrade]

Anyone can play FB if they have height and a leap. All you have to do is punch the ball, and follow your man and negate them.


Cool, so what's our problem then?

[jeemak]

Cool, so what's our problem then?

I think it's that we don't have anyone who has the height or the leap.

Not really sure BAD's fairly assessing how difficult a position FB is to play these days. Athletic attributes are one thing, reading of the ball is another and communicating with fellow defenders, knowing when to peel off a man to assist in the air, how to put a body in the right spot to block without giving away a free and a whole raft of other things make up a good FB's repertoire.

Naughton can do all of those things better than anyone we have.

[bornadog]

I think it's that we don't have anyone who has the height or the leap.

Not really sure BAD's fairly assessing how difficult a position FB is to play these days. Athletic attributes are one thing, reading of the ball is another and communicating with fellow defenders, knowing when to peel off a man to assist in the air, how to put a body in the right spot to block without giving away a free and a whole raft of other things make up a good FB's repertoire.

Naughton can do all of those things better than anyone we have.

I still think forward is harder to play than back.

I think the man for the FB role is Le Young, with Keath playing CHB. Young played the last few games at FB in 2019 and acquitted himself well.

Naughton would be a waste at FB

[jeemak]

I still think forward is harder to play than back.

I think the man for the FB role is Le Young, with Keath playing CHB. Young played the last few games at FB in 2019 and acquitted himself well.

Naughton would be a waste at FB

This is bullshit. He wouldn't be a waste, you're discrediting yourself when you talk in absolutes like this. It comes down to where we have cover and where we are exposed, and some of us think we're well exposed defencively and for at least a year or two between now and when we can resolve that exposure (through recruiting or development of a couple of players we have) we're suggesting it would be to the benefit of the team having Naughton cover us at FB given we recruited Bruce and have Schache.

I like Lew Young but he's tracking to be more of an interceptor similar to Keith than he is a one on one defending FB in my view.

[comrade]

Let's also remember that Naughton is a fairly average kick at goal, so for all those marks he takes inside 50, he's only going to convert 40-45% of chances at best. I love seeing speccies, but I also love seeing us win more.

Naughton in defence with Bruce as our number 1 forward will help us win more games than Naughton and Bruce sharing forward duties and relying on Cordy/Keath to hold down key defensive roles (the thought of these two together gives me nightmares).

[azabob]

I see Naughton as an intercept defender similar to what we already have and not a lock down defender.

I’m not certain Naughton with our current batch of defenders would actually help our issue.

We need a Morris / Roberts lock down type not another Lake or Keith type.

[comrade]

I see Naughton as an intercept defender similar to what we already have and not a lock down defender.

I’m not certain Naughton with our current batch of defenders would actually help our issue.

We need a Morris / Roberts lock down type not another Lake or Keith type.

Naughton is such an elite talent, he'll become whatever we need. I can see him just out-marking the opposition key forward all game and propelling us into attack over and again whilst helping keep their score down.

[bornadog]

This is bullshit. He wouldn't be a waste,

Getting emotional there Jee.

Maybe I chose the wrong wording, with waste, of course he would be good in the backline, but I feel better in the forward line.

We have had very few star FF in my time following the club. I have seen Templeton and Beasely kick 100 in a season, then had to wait a long time till Chris Grant came along in 1990. After Chris, ie in the last 30 years, the forward line has been barren. We have recruited alot of older players in their last years of their career, with only Hall returning a couple of good seasons. I think when you have a talent like Naughton, who is capable of kicking lots of goals, then you keep them there.

Anyway, we both differ in our opinion of where he should play, so I will leave it at that. No one is right or wrong.

[Rocco Jones]

Naughton is such an elite talent, he'll become whatever we need. I can see him just out-marking the opposition key forward all game and propelling us into attack over and again whilst helping keep their score down.

This is my answer too. If he was, or becomes, a semi-decent shot at goal, he plays forward no matter what. At the moment, I think he plays depending on our needs. I actually think we need him down back more right now but coming off injury issues, I would rather him start forward.

[Danjul]

This is my answer too. If he was, or becomes, a semi-decent shot at goal, he plays forward no matter what. At the moment, I think he plays depending on our needs. I actually think we need him down back more right now but coming off injury issues, I would rather him start forward.

in 2019 he kicked 1 goal or less on 15 occasions.
His best hauls were 5 once and 4 once.

on this performance his best position is where the team needs him most, and that is the backline.

[GVGjr]

I'm not sure why this appears to be such a challenging topic but for what it's worth I think we can find others that can play the in the back half and be 80% of the player Naughton can be but I don't think we have anyone who can really get close to what Naughton can be as a forward.
32 goals from a player who trained with the defenders all preseason only to be thrown forward in an act of desperation is an impressive performance. If he improves his goal kicking just a bit we are looking at a potential 50 goal a season forward but in reality he impacts our forward half more than just the goals he kicks. He honors the work of the midfielder and provides a target, the smaller forwards will learn to clean up and thrive on any of his missed marks but it's his ability to make a contest that really tests the opposition defenders

While he is an excellent defender he deserves at least another season forward before we consider moving him to the back line.

[GVGjr]

in 2019 he kicked 1 goal or less on 15 occasions.
His best hauls were 5 once and 4 once.

on this performance his best position is where the team needs him most, and that is the backline.

He plays up the field so that stat doesn't surprise me but it's marking ability that keeps the ball forward that impresses me the most.
When he marks the ball insider 50 we typically score from it. With Bruce in the side let he and Schache play up the ground more and keep Naugthon inside the 50.

We added Keath to the back line and while we have a surplus of intercept defenders I'm not sure that moving Naughton back is the answer.
I'm not ready to give up on the move forward just yet

[soupman]

I'm not sure why this appears to be such a challenging topic but for what it's worth I think we can find others that can play the in the back half and be 80% of the player Naughton can be but I don't think we have anyone who can really get close to what Naughton can be as a forward.

I think this sums it up for me.

Aside from Chris Grant, the player we all universally agree is or best modern day player (which means best player we have seen in our colours for most considering how long ago Whitten occurred), we have never seen a key forward at the club with this much potential as a key forward. Our pick 1 and pick 2 key forwards in Boyd and Schache have never looked close to the player we think Naughton could be (aside from maybe one GF performance). We cannot underestimate how rare an opportunity this is for us.

Yes Naughton would be great in defence, he has already shown that. But the role we need in defence is the lockdown defender on the power forwards. What a waste. If Naughton goes back he should be the one we are pushing to be the dominating pay your opponent no respect intercept marker. I guess the kind of hybrid role we recruited Keath for. What we need is someone who can play his role and lock down the main forward, what someone like Roughead does at the Pies, or Talia does at the Crows etc. Naughton can certainly play that role or a role helping whoever does that (Trengove maybe if Beveridge didn't lose his magnet), but what a waste when you see his ability up forward.

Look at the recent Premiership defences. Astbury was Richmonds big lockdown defender, Barass/Schofield did the job for West Coast, Astbury and Grimes again, Hamling and Roberts. None of these guys had to be amazing, they just had to perform in their role and be assisted by the aerial intercept defenders. Richmond had Vlastuin and Grimes, West Coast had McGovern, Richmond had Rance and we had Wood. If we plug our current lineup into that then Keath projects as the mobile intercept option, we just need to find someone who is good one on one and not a liability with ball in hand. Naughton is that, but he is so so so much more than that.

Besides, if this season goes ahead in October or whatever I am very comfortable with us taking some risks and trying this gameplan we seem to have created over summer. Give Naughton 17 games to have a real go at it up forward and see if he can take another step forward, give Keath and whoever else makes up our defence a chance to develop into their roles and see if they can make it work. If it fails we have an off season where we can grab some athletically decent and appropriately disciplined delistee to have a go at filling the role. Aside from Talia it isn't as if any of the above mentioned guys were high draft picks.

[SonofScray]

His performance up front probably lit the fuse for a turn around in the vibe at the Club, I think he really lit a spark in Bevo that helped him break his coaching malaise.

You don't get marking talent like that very often. He belongs forward.

[anfo27]

I'm in the keep him forward camp. He does need to improve his kicking but don't people remember what his field kicking was like in defence? I never wanted him to get the ball because he invariably would make a howler. At least as a forward he can take a mark, go back & use a kicking routine that he can stick to & improve.

[GVGjr]

I'm in the keep him forward camp. He does need to improve his kicking but don't people remember what his field kicking was like in defence? I never wanted him to get the ball because he invariably would make a howler. At least as a forward he can take a mark, go back & use a kicking routine that he can stick to & improve.

My guess is that if he possessed a fluent kick he might have gone top 5 in his draft. He isn't a bad kick for goal but there is some work to do no doubt. He was thrown forward when Bevo finally realised the need to kicking winning scores
Play him a bit closer to the goal and his conversion rate should improve especially now that he knows he is being played forward

[comrade]

You'll all jump aboard the Naughton Defence train after Cordy & Keath get pummelled for weeks on end ;)

[GVGjr]

You'll all jump aboard the Naughton Defence train after Cordy & Keath get pummelled for weeks on end ;)

Then why didn't we go harder at getting a 1 v 1 defender during the trade period?
We could have targeted Howard, who would have suited us, with a bigger deal

We can also play Trengove but wait, that won't happen :)

[jeemak]

So we all agree we should play a player we don't actually have on the list (assuming Trengove's papers are stamped) as the key lockdown defender so Naughton can play forward.

Sounds great.

[GVGjr]

So we all agree we should play a player we don't actually have on the list (assuming Trengove's papers are stamped) as the key lockdown defender so Naughton can play forward.

Sounds great.

As a club do we even accept we have a challenge in that area? Lewis Young and Alex Keath will have to adapt their games much like Naughton had to when he moved forward.
We are one game into the season and have suddenly in this thread identified a problem that we actually discussed during the trade period that didn't seem to be a big issue at the time. A few of us cautioned that we were trading for players that weren't necessarily a perfect fit for us. That's not knocking the players but Keath for example wasn't necessarily a 1 v 1 defender and that's what we appeared to be lacking.

Is one game sufficient to determine that Young, Cordy and Keath aren't exactly what we need given Trengove seems to be in the back of the queue?

I'd be playing Trengove or at least giving him some chances

[bornadog]

As a club do we even accept we have a challenge in that area? Lewis Young and Alex Keath will have to adapt their games much like Naughton had to when he moved forward.
We are one game into the season and have suddenly in this thread identified a problem that we actually discussed during the trade period that didn't seem to be a big issue at the time. A few of us cautioned that we were trading for players that weren't necessarily a perfect fit for us. That's not knocking the players but Keath for example wasn't necessarily a 1 v 1 defender and that's what we appeared to be lacking.

Is one game sufficient to determine that Young, Cordy and Keath aren't exactly what we need given Trengove seems to be in the back of the queue?

I'd be playing Trengove or at least giving him some chances

We have to remember, in the second half of last year, we had the least goals scored against us. We can't just look at round one this year.

If the midfield is playing well, then defence doesn't come under pressure. I really believe we need to develop Young as our Key one on one backman, with Trengrove the backup for either ruck or Full back.

[jeemak]

The issue is we've been horribly exposed in the middle in our two most recent (and important) matches, and I'm not sure our midfield can be trusted to show up week in, week out. I'd play Trengove as well, but if he's out of favour then we need to figure out what our best option is and I don't think it's Young.

Picking up Keith was the right move, he improves our list and every team could do with an elite interceptor so I don't see how that enters the discussion.

[GVGjr]

The issue is we've been horribly exposed in the middle in our two most recent (and important) matches, and I'm not sure our midfield can be trusted to show up week in, week out. I'd play Trengove as well, but if he's out of favour then we need to figure out what our best option is and I don't think it's Young.

Picking up Keith was the right move, he improves our list and every team could do with an elite interceptor so I don't see how that enters the discussion.

Keath is a great addition but we questioned during the trade period if he would be asked to be that 1 v 1 defender we thought we might need given Cordy's form had declined

[anfo27]

The issue is we've been horribly exposed in the middle in our two most recent (and important) matches, and I'm not sure our midfield can be trusted to show up week in, week out. I'd play Trengove as well, but if he's out of favour then we need to figure out what our best option is and I don't think it's Young.

Picking up Keith was the right move, he improves our list and every team could do with an elite interceptor so I don't see how that enters the discussion.

Our midfield was destroyed both games. You could have Naughton, Lake & Rick Kennedy down there & we still lose those games comfortably. Better defenders give us a better chance but if midfielders have time & space to hit a target inside 50 then it doesn't matter what the defenders name is, he doesn't have a chance.

[Twodogs]

I think this sums it up for me.

Aside from Chris Grant, the player we all universally agree is or best modern day player (which means best player we have seen in our colours for most considering how long ago Whitten occurred), we have never seen a key forward at the club with this much potential as a key forward. Our pick 1 and pick 2 key forwards in Boyd and Schache have never looked close to the player we think Naughton could be (aside from maybe one GF performance). We cannot underestimate how rare an opportunity this is for us.

Yes Naughton would be great in defence, he has already shown that. But the role we need in defence is the lockdown defender on the power forwards. What a waste. If Naughton goes back he should be the one we are pushing to be the dominating pay your opponent no respect intercept marker. I guess the kind of hybrid role we recruited Keath for. What we need is someone who can play his role and lock down the main forward, what someone like Roughead does at the Pies, or Talia does at the Crows etc. Naughton can certainly play that role or a role helping whoever does that (Trengove maybe if Beveridge didn't lose his magnet), but what a waste when you see his ability up forward.

Look at the recent Premiership defences. Astbury was Richmonds big lockdown defender, Barass/Schofield did the job for West Coast, Astbury and Grimes again, Hamling and Roberts. None of these guys had to be amazing, they just had to perform in their role and be assisted by the aerial intercept defenders. Richmond had Vlastuin and Grimes, West Coast had McGovern, Richmond had Rance and we had Wood. If we plug our current lineup into that then Keath projects as the mobile intercept option, we just need to find someone who is good one on one and not a liability with ball in hand. Naughton is that, but he is so so so much more than that.

Besides, if this season goes ahead in October or whatever I am very comfortable with us taking some risks and trying this gameplan we seem to have created over summer. Give Naughton 17 games to have a real go at it up forward and see if he can take another step forward, give Keath and whoever else makes up our defence a chance to develop into their roles and see if they can make it work. If it fails we have an off season where we can grab some athletically decent and appropriately disciplined delistee to have a go at filling the role. Aside from Talia it isn't as if any of the above mentioned guys were high draft picks.

I don't think that you don't have to go back to Whitten. Kelvin Templeton was a better player than Chris Grant. Two Colemans, one Brownlow in a career that was done by the time he was 22.


Chris Grant was great. Bloody great, but KT was better.

[bornadog]

2019 Goals


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmNcTLr5E4M

[Jam Donuts]

I don't think that you don't have to go back to Whitten. Kelvin Templeton was a better player than Chris Grant. Two Colemans, one Brownlow in a career that was done by the time he was 22.


Chris Grant was great. Bloody great, but KT was better.

I have to agree with you there, KT without injury would have gone on to be one of the best forwards of all time, as it was he was the first KPF to win a brownlow, (I may be wrong).

[Twodogs]

I have to agree with you there, KT without injury would have gone on to be one of the best forwards of all time, as it was he was the first KPF to win a brownlow, (I may be wrong).

He was. Lockett, Quinlan and Dunstall have since repeated it. That's good company to be ahead of.

If it weren't for that bloody knee injury he would have been considered the greatest player of all time.

[Axe Man]

He was. Lockett, Quinlan and Dunstall have since repeated it. That's good company to be ahead of.

If it weren't for that bloody knee injury he would have been considered the greatest player of all time.

Pretty sure Piggy didn't win a Brownlow. Did come second a couple of times though.

[Twodogs]

Pretty sure Piggy didn't win a Brownlow. Did come second a couple of times though.

You're right. His best placing was 3rd. I always thought that he finished level with someone one year. Put's Lindsay (KT's nickname, I don't know why but we just decided one day that he looked like somebody who would be called Lindsay and it stuck) in even more elite company.

[Bulldog4life]

Naughton has a bit of the "Royce Harts" about him. His ability to glide across the pack and mark the ball is breath taking similar. Key forwards are very hard to fine. Royce never played in the backline. Neither should Naughty start there....unless he is moved there during a game.

[Twodogs]

959


Who's this with Fev?

[Twodogs]

Naughton has a bit of the "Royce Harts" about him. His ability to glide across the pack and mark the ball is breath taking similar. Key forwards are very hard to fine. Royce never played in the backline. Neither should Naughty start there....unless he is moved there during a game.

I hate Richmond with a passion but Royce Hart is my favorite footballer by the length of the Flemington straight.

Not long after he took over as coach he was running laps of the ground and I was playing kick to kick with my mates. Just as he turned to face us I took the biggest speccy I have ever taken. I jumped on my mates shoulders and then he stood and I got the best secondary ride I ever got. When I caught the ball I must have been eight (8) foot of the ground-I can remember looking down and thinking "Okay genius, what are you going to do now?" and the ground rushing up at me.

So I am laying on the ground-maybe I passed out but the next thing I know Royce Hart (Yes ROYCE *!*!*!*!ING HART) is offering me ME! his hand to help me up off the ground. I reached for that hand like a mother*!*!*!*!er and as he helped me up he said "that's the best mark I have ever seen anyone take."

I walked on air all the way home and I must have been unbearably conceited because my mum called me on it."Who's been pumping your tires up son" So I told her about the mark and what Royce Hart had said and she said "You rate that Royce Hart, don't you?" and that was it, it was never mentioned again.