Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

[bornadog]

Original top 10:

Brett Deledio, Jarryd Roughead, Ryan Griffen, Richard Tambling, Lance Franklin, Tom Williams, Jordan Lewis, John Meesen, Jordan Russell, Chris Egan.

Richos re-draft

10 – Heath Grundy
“He was probably their second best player in a Grand Final in 2016 and ended up with over 250 games off a rookie list,” Richardson told Sportsday.

9 – Mark LeCras
“A very, very good player playing in the half forward role. He wasn’t the number one target, but (kicked) 441 goals in 219 games. All-Australian and a best and fairest.”

8 – Josh Gibson
“What a player he became at the Hawthorn Football Club. He won two best and fairests in premiership years and off a rookie list (at North Melbourne) as well.”

7 – Dale Morris
“One of the toughest players I have ever played on. He could play small, he could play tall, incredibly hard and brave. I’ll never forget what he did in that 2016 premiership.”

6 – Jordan Lewis
“He played over 300 games, four premierships.”

5 – Travis Cloke
“Playing in a tough position on the ground, I just thought he was harshly rated at times. He was one of the best contested marks of the last 20 years, if not the best.”

4 – Ryan Griffen
“Captain, two best and fairests, played over 250 games.”

3 – Jarryd Roughead
“I’ve left Roughead at three. This is a bit contentious. We know what he achieved, one of the best guys in footy.”

2 – Brett Deledio
“I’ve had to drop Brett Deledio from number one to number two, so I’ll be expecting a text message from him any minute now, but not even he can argue with me here. Lids had a great career mind you and would have played 300 games if not for some calf injuries late in his career.”

1 – Lance Franklin
“Number one by a fair way, when you’ve been All-Australian eight times, that’s just incredible. I think he’ll end up kicking 1000 goals because this break might be good for him.”


What changes would you make?

Personally I wouldn't have Deledio at 3

Original full 2004 draft here (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2004&t=N&s=P)

[Mofra]

Hard to argue with, although personally I'd have Roughy at no 2.

[The Underdog]

Hard to argue with, although personally I'd have Roughy at no 2.

Yeah, that’s the one for me. Rough feels to me like he was more valuable over the run. Deledio and Griff are tough to split.
Tambling stiff to miss out :)

[Axe Man]

Personally I wouldn't have Deledio at 3 due to the number of games he missed.

He played 275 games! More than that bloke from GWS and only a handful less than Roughy. He hardly missed until the tail end of his career.

Agree that there's not much between Deledio and our former captain.

5 of the original top 7 are still there so the recruiters got it fairly correct.

[bornadog]

He played 275 games! More than that bloke from GWS and only a handful less than Roughy. He hardly missed until the tail end of his career.

Agree that there's not much between Deledio and our former captain.

5 of the original top 7 are still there so the recruiters got it fairly correct.

I must admit I didn't think he played that many. Seemed to be missing a hell of alot of times. I would still have Griff over Deledio anytime. Was a big performer in finals footy for us.

[jeemak]

I must admit I didn't think he played that many. Seemed to be missing a hell of alot of times. I would still have Griff over Deledio anytime. Was a big performer in finals footy for us.

Deledio was better forward, but Griffen had a bigger impact in the middle and in finals. I think some Richmond bias has gotten the former over the line but they're hard to split.

[Mofra]

Deledio was better forward, but Griffen had a bigger impact in the middle and in finals. I think some Richmond bias has gotten the former over the line but they're hard to split.
If you refer to their personal awards they match up pretty evenly too.

Deledio has a few more games under his belt which is why people may put him ahead, although Griff's game in that final against Sydney (on one leg) was one of the best finals performances I've seen.

[Remi Moses]

Good calls by Richo
I’d have Roughead ahead of deledio and Griffen as well

[Dry Rot]

Pleased to see Morris and Grundy in there.

Well deserved.

[mjp]

Am I missing something???

I am 99.99999% sure Eddie Betts was part of the 04 draft. I also think Josh Gibson was part of it.

How are those two not top 10?

Isn't it something like this:

Buddy
...
Daylight
...
Roughy
Betts
Cloke
Lewis
Delidio
Griffen
Morris
Gibson
Maybe LeCras? Van Berlo who captained Adelaide would go close!

Lewis with 4-flags, Gibson with 3...those guys have got to move on up in the list I think. Delidio and Gryphon with zero and - sadly - not even many finals games...they need to drop down.

[GVGjr]

And yet with the power of hindsight I would take Roughead with the first pick of the draft
I remember attending a presentation that Clarkson made and he mentioned that Roughy brought a lot more to the club than just his football prowess. Franklin is a great footballer but I'd pick Roughy at pick 1.

[The Underdog]

Am I missing something???

I am 99.99999% sure Eddie Betts was part of the 04 draft. I also think Josh Gibson was part of it.

How are those two not top 10?

Isn't it something like this:

Buddy
...
Daylight
...
Roughy
Betts
Cloke
Lewis
Delidio
Griffen
Morris
Gibson
Maybe LeCras? Van Berlo who captained Adelaide would go close!

Lewis with 4-flags, Gibson with 3...those guys have got to move on up in the list I think. Delidio and Gryphon with zero and - sadly - not even many finals games...they need to drop down.

Gibson is at 8, which seems fair. Betts may have been an administrative error as he was Pre Season Draft, not main or rookie, but yeah he should be in there. I get the argument for Lewis moving up, he was a cracking player, but would he have been a 4 time premiership player at the Dogs or Richmond?

[jeemak]

I reckon too much weight is given to premierships in these sorts of lists generally speaking. Some ordinary players win more than one of them.

[Sedat]

If you refer to their personal awards they match up pretty evenly too.

Deledio has a few more games under his belt which is why people may put him ahead, although Griff's game in that final against Sydney (on one leg) was one of the best finals performances I've seen.
From 2006 to 2010, Griffen was in the top 1-3 players on the ground for us in 8 of the 11 finals we played. He is marked down because of the way he left the Dogs as captain but for mine he was vastly more impactful than Deledio, who was a glorified seagull picking up cheapies off half back for much of his career. If career longevity was a key determining factor then Eagleton would be a hall of famer. Deledio was a nice player but vastly overrated by the footy community.

[comrade]

And yet with the power of hindsight I would take Roughead with the first pick of the draft
I remember attending a presentation that Clarkson made and he mentioned that Roughy brought a lot more to the club than just his football prowess. Franklin is a great footballer but I'd pick Roughy at pick 1.

Now that is a controversial hot take. You'd be in the tiny minority not picking Buddy at 1...not that you don't make a good point, but Buddy is one of the ALLLLLLL time greats.

[bornadog]

Now that is a controversial hot take. You'd be in the tiny minority not picking Buddy at 1...not that you don't make a good point, but Buddy is one of the ALLLLLLL time greats.

944 Career Goals - one of the best forwards to ever play the game, pick one for sure

[Happy Days]

Buddy is the best player ever. Ridiculous to not think he goes first here G.

I’d have Griffen 3rd after Roughy and ahead of Cloke and Betts.

Lewis is nice and all but if he doesn’t play for Hawthorn is it really an argument that they don’t win those flags? I’d take Moz over him.

[hujsh]

Knowing everything about the two if I were building a team to win a premiership I'd want Roughead more than Buddy.

If I were just picking the better forward then it's Buddy but I think Roughead contributes more to a team (including I suspect leadership/culture stuff)

[GVGjr]

Now that is a controversial hot take. You'd be in the tiny minority not picking Buddy at 1...not that you don't make a good point, but Buddy is one of the ALLLLLLL time greats.

I'm not in anyway disputing that but here is a summary of Clarkson's presentation. I mention Clarksons thoughts on Roughead

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?931-An-hour-with-Alistair-Clarkson

[Twodogs]

Deledio was better forward, but Griffen had a bigger impact in the middle and in finals. I think some Richmond bias has gotten the former over the line but they're hard to split.

Yep. Richo has rated one of his mates far too highly.


I reckon too much weight is given to premierships in these sorts of lists generally speaking. Some ordinary players win more than one of them.

Can't agree. Ordinary players (like Scot Howell the worst premiership player I have seem) might fluke playing in one flag but not multiple flags. For one thing you aren't going to win multiple flags with an ordinary player. The lesson I learned from 2016 is that it doesn't matter how many good players you have, if your bottom four players are better than the other mobs bottom 4 then you will win.


From 2006 to 2010, Griffen was in the top 1-3 players on the ground for us in 8 of the 11 finals we played. He is marked down because of the way he left the Dogs as captain but for mine he was vastly more impactful than Deledio, who was a glorified seagull picking up cheapies off half back for much of his career. If career longevity was a key determining factor then Eagleton would be a hall of famer. Deledio was a nice player but vastly overrated by the footy community.

I'd have hated to play with Brett Delidio. It would be worse than playing with Brendan Goddard.


Buddy is the best player ever. Ridiculous to not think he goes first here G.

Ever? Of all time? I don't think he's the best player playing in the AFL moment ATM and when he was at Hawthorn he wasn't even the best player on their list. If I had to redraft knowing what I know now I'd have Roughy and Hodge (different draft I know) before Buddy.

[Happy Days]

Ever? Of all time? I don't think he's the best player playing in the AFL moment ATM and when he was at Hawthorn he wasn't even the best player on their list. If I had to redraft knowing what I know now I'd have Roughy and Hodge (different draft I know) before Buddy.

Ever of all time yes. People still talk about Ablett Lockett and Dunstall kicking 1000 goals against plumbers and chippies, Buddy's gonna do it against guys who actually train more than twice a week.

[Twodogs]

Ever of all time yes. People still talk about Ablett Lockett and Dunstall kicking 1000 goals against plumbers and chippies, Buddy's gonna do it against guys who actually train more than twice a week.

Royce Hart was twice the player Buddy is. Don't get me wrong Buddy is a good player, probably a great player but I can name five players off the top of my head that I have seen play that are better than Buddy.

In no particular order (but with Hart clearly #1)


1/ Royce Hart

2/ Wayne Carey

3/ Darryl Baldock

4/ Tony Lockett

5/ Bernie Quinlan.

All those guys could mark overhead while a few of them also excelled at doing the rest of the things Buddy excels at. Quinlan for instance could run, mark and kick the footy 70 metres off the wrong foot. He kicked century totals more than Buddy and won a Brownlow. I didn't put Templeton in because I didn't want to be accused of bias but even he won two Colemans and a Brownlow in about 150 games less than Buddy.


Still think Buddy was the best ever?

[Happy Days]

Royce Hart was twice the player Buddy is. Don't get me wrong Buddy is a good player, probably a great player but I can name five players off the top of my head that I have seen play that are better than Buddy.

In no particular order (but with Hart clearly #1)


1/ Royce Hart

2/ Wayne Carey

3/ Darryl Baldock

4/ Tony Lockett

5/ Bernie Quinlan.

All those guys could mark overhead while a few of them also excelled at doing the rest of the things Buddy excels at. Quinlan for instance could run, mark and kick the footy 70 metres off the wrong foot. He kicked century totals more than Buddy and won a Brownlow. I didn't put Templeton in because I didn't want to be accused of bias but even he won two Colemans and a Brownlow in about 150 games less than Buddy.


Still think Buddy was the best ever?

I'm happy with what I've said. Sure, Buddy can't mark overhead but I never saw Tony Lockett run 100m down the wing in 15 seconds and finish from the boundary 30m out, let alone do it twice in the same game (also never saw him win a flag). He can also run and kick on his left 70m, and on the very rare occasion someone can actually catch him to make him use his right he can do this;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNo7RGl_lVs

Saying that players have kicked more century totals than Buddy is kind of misleading and that it's even a comparison points to how much of a force Buddy is.

Plus there's the whole "actually plays against professionals" thing.

[bornadog]

I'm happy with what I've said. Sure, Buddy can't mark overhead but I never saw Tony Lockett run 100m down the wing in 15 seconds and finish from the boundary 30m out, let alone do it twice in the same game (also never saw him win a flag). He can also run and kick on his left 70m, and on the very rare occasion someone can actually catch him to make him use his right he can do this;

Saying that players have kicked more century totals than Buddy is kind of misleading and that it's even a comparison points to how much of a force Buddy is.

Plus there's the whole "actually plays against professionals" thing.

Very difficult to compare players of different eras. I tend to agree with you that Buddy is one of the greatest to play the game, however, I can't say the greatest as there have been so many good players of the years.

This is one of the best performances ever:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9qS7bwxr3k

[Twodogs]

Royce Hart didn't need to run 70 metres in 15 seconds. He'd just blast them through from that distance instead. And it's a bit misleading with the whole "professional player" because Buddy trains just as much as them. The players that Hart played against were part time sure. But guess what? Royce Hart had a day job too. He only became a full time football person was when he came to coach us. Even then I was earning more than him in my first full time job a couple of years later.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VjevDLtVqtE


There is a very good reason Royce Hart was named in the VFL team of the century at CHF. I don't think that Buddy will make the next team if the century.


GVGjr and I have had this conversation in the past and he is in the Buddy camp with you. When he told me that he thought Buddy was better than Hart I had to go and have a bit of a sit down! ;) I can understand your POV because you never saw Royce Hart play but Gary did...

[The Underdog]

I'm happy with what I've said. Sure, Buddy can't mark overhead but I never saw Tony Lockett run 100m down the wing in 15 seconds and finish from the boundary 30m out, let alone do it twice in the same game (also never saw him win a flag). He can also run and kick on his left 70m, and on the very rare occasion someone can actually catch him to make him use his right he can do this;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNo7RGl_lVs

Saying that players have kicked more century totals than Buddy is kind of misleading and that it's even a comparison points to how much of a force Buddy is.

Plus there's the whole "actually plays against professionals" thing.

Your assumption with the plays against professionals thing is that everybody else was somewhat of a hack who would have been immeasurably improved with a more professional training regimen, whereas Ablett and Lockett wouldn’t have. And I can assure you that Lockett and Ablett weren’t gaining ground on the comp with their training habits. Still, Ablett, Franklin and Carey are possibly the only 3 players of the last 40 years that I went to watch in a neutral game, just because they were playing.

And look, Franklin is a freakish talent who can take over a game like nobody else and I would have taken him first in that draft in hindsight.
I also believe that arguing about the best player in football history is like trying to wank with invisible arms on a raft in a tsunami

[jeemak]

Can't agree. Ordinary players (like Scot Howell the worst premiership player I have seem) might fluke playing in one flag but not multiple flags. For one thing you aren't going to win multiple flags with an ordinary player. The lesson I learned from 2016 is that it doesn't matter how many good players you have, if your bottom four players are better than the other mobs bottom 4 then you will win.


I wasn't using ordinary as a slight, rather, more so in the way Jack Dyer used it when he described players as good ordinary players.

Shane Biggs was a good ordinary player. That he won a premiership didn't make him anything other than a good ordinary player who won a premiership. There's plenty of these types littered through AFL history, and there's plenty who have won more flags than Shane Biggs.

[Twodogs]

I wasn't using ordinary as a slight, rather, more so in the way Jack Dyer used it when he described players as good ordinary players.

Shane Biggs was a good ordinary player. That he won a premiership didn't make him anything other than a good ordinary player who won a premiership. There's plenty of these types littered through AFL history, and there's plenty who have won more flags than Shane Biggs.


Fair enough. Didn't Jack Dyer call Ken Hunter a good ordinary player? Or was it Peter Bosustow?


We wouldn't have won that flag but for the Wall of Biggs. He might be a good ordinary player but there was nothing ordinary about that effort.

[jeemak]

I find these arguments ridiculous. Players are only ever able to be as good as their competition at the time, relativism is actually a thing.

However, Buddy stands above relativism. He is an out and out freak and we're lucky to have seen him.

If we're looking at the draft retrospectively and then about what a player brings to a club holistically then tell me, what would Roughead have delivered at Melbourne if he was drafted there? Players are only ever as good as their environment and he goes down in the annuls of history in a similar vein Chris Grant did...…..severely underrated.

Let's just keep it to how they play, and on that front Buddy is a shit tonne better than anyone in that draft and as good a player I've seen.

……..and don't get me started on why it's folly to compare players even from the same era to begin with anyway. Footy is a multi-positional game and those positions are all equally important and require different skills to play them well.

[jeemak]

Fair enough. Didn't Jack Dyer call Ken Hunter a good ordinary player? Or was it Peter Bosustow?


We wouldn't have won that flag but for the Wall of Biggs. He might be a good ordinary player but there was nothing ordinary about that effort.

Ken Hunter is the epitome of a good ordinary player! I think Peter Bosustow would have really really upset Jack Dyer.

[Happy Days]

Your assumption with the plays against professionals thing is that everybody else was somewhat of a hack who would have been immeasurably improved with a more professional training regimen, whereas Ablett and Lockett wouldn’t have.

Yes, but - Buddy actuall did play in an era with improved training standards turning the average player into a killer. That should be a huge mark in his favour.

Also low key from what I can tell watching old games everyone else was kind of a hack (maybe that's because I only watch old Dogs games).


I also believe that arguing about the best player in football history is like trying to wank with invisible arms on a raft in a tsunami

Okay not bad.

[Twodogs]

OK guys. This is Aliesha Newman Kicking the GOTW in AFLW in 2017. Apart from the gender thing explain exactly how Buddy's differs from that one?



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KFnd8tTeAR0

[jeemak]

OK guys. This is Aliesha Newman Kicking the GOTW in AFLW in 2017. Apart from the gender thing explain exactly how Buddy's differs from that one?



https]://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KFnd8tTeAR0

Buddy did it in a competition that's been elite for 25 years in all facets of the game. AFLW will get there hopefully, but...….I'm not even going to bother finishing.

[jeemak]

Okay not bad.

You crack me up mate.

[Twodogs]

Or this one. The shimmy is Macrae like!

[jeemak]

She's a gun. Absolute gun and would be a good player in any AFLW competition ever.

Her opponents will catch up though, it's such early days for that competition and the speeds between players are so different. I truly believe however, that as soon as they tip sufficient money (i.e. more and then lots more) into the competition the rate of improvement will be huge.

[The Underdog]

Yes, but - Buddy actuall did play in an era with improved training standards turning the average player into a killer. That should be a huge mark in his favour.

Also low key from what I can tell watching old games everyone else was kind of a hack (maybe that's because I only watch old Dogs games).



Lucas Markovic was a killer?

[jeemak]

Lucas Markovic was a killer?

As-is/was he'd get a gig before anyone in defence from yesteryear. If you plonked modern day Makovich into 1972 he'd have been a gun.

Problem for him though he played the game like it was yesteryear against players acting as if it wasn't.

[Happy Days]

Lucas Markovic was a killer?

Of Krispy Kreme maybe. I did say "average players" and no one would've ever accused Lukas of that.

[westdog54]

Gibson is at 8, which seems fair. Betts may have been an administrative error as he was Pre Season Draft, not main or rookie, but yeah he should be in there. I get the argument for Lewis moving up, he was a cracking player, but would he have been a 4 time premiership player at the Dogs or Richmond?

If you're going to include a rookie (Grundy/Morris) you include the PSD as well.

I don't know about Lewis. He was a great player #5 on that list is a stretch.

How Betts isn't on the list but LeCras gets a gig is baffling.

[westdog54]

OK guys. This is Aliesha Newman Kicking the GOTW in AFLW in 2017. Apart from the gender thing explain exactly how Buddy's differs from that one?



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KFnd8tTeAR0

He ran further. That's about all I've got for you.

If its viewed in conjunction with the almost identical one he kicked a few minutes prior (Which it shouldn't for GOTY consideration) then maybe that beefs it up.

Franklin's athleticism and skill level for a player of his size is inhuman. He's well beyond his best and I didn't see the other 5 you mentioned play, but on pure football ability he belongs at the top of the list.

That being said, when you add in Roughead's leadership and club mentality, that just edges him to #1. Also freakishly athletic and skilful for his size, just not quite as much as Buddy. Hawthorn built a premiership side in that draft.

[westdog54]

Fair enough. Didn't Jack Dyer call Ken Hunter a good ordinary player? Or was it Peter Bosustow?


We wouldn't have won that flag but for the Wall of Biggs. He might be a good ordinary player but there was nothing ordinary about that effort.

From what I remember of watching Lou reminiscing with Jack one day on The Footy Show, it was Bosustow.

[The Underdog]

If you're going to include a rookie (Grundy/Morris) you include the PSD as well.

I don't know about Lewis. He was a great player #5 on that list is a stretch.

How Betts isn't on the list but LeCras gets a gig is baffling.

By administrative error, I meant a lazy lack of research. I agree, Betts belongs in there well ahead of LeCras.

[Twodogs]

Of Krispy Kreme maybe. I did say "average players" and no one would've ever accused Lukas of that.

Were you at the family day when the fist fight broke out because the Krispy Kremes had run out?

[Happy Days]

Were you at the family day when the fist fight broke out because the Krispy Kremes had run out?

I was not.

Given how many of our players I've recently learned live in Middle Park I kinda love that and hope it happened recently.

[Twodogs]

I was not.

Given how many of our players I've recently learned live in Middle Park I kinda love that and hope it happened recently.

It must have been around 2010ish.

It remains one of the funniest things I have seen. It's a real shame back then not many people filmed things on their phones

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would go Buddy Roughead Griffen Deledio in that order for top 4. Gee Hawthorn blitzed that draft, and then they stole, Gibson as well. Oooh it hurts. And it still hurts every time I think of us Taking Tom Williams too. Just a ridiculous reach with pick 6.

[Axe Man]

I would go Buddy Roughead Griffen Deledio in that order for top 4. Gee Hawthorn blitzed that draft, and then they stole, Gibson as well. Oooh it hurts. And it still hurts every time I think of us Taking Tom Williams too. Just a ridiculous reach with pick 6.

I think you are being a bit harsh there, he had the potential to be a decent player if his body hadn't have let him down.

Also you need to look at the players taken after Lewis at 7 - it's an absolute wasteland. A few journeymen and many that never made it. This draft falls off a cliff after pick 7, with of course a few late gems here and there.

[Mofra]

I would go Buddy Roughead Griffen Deledio in that order for top 4. Gee Hawthorn blitzed that draft, and then they stole, Gibson as well. Oooh it hurts. And it still hurts every time I think of us Taking Tom Williams too. Just a ridiculous reach with pick 6.
We were always going tall with that second pick. Fans would have burnt down the EJ Whitten stand if we took two mids and at the time we rated Griff no 1. IIRC we were right into Roughead too.

Williams would have been a 200 game CHB if his shoulders weren't made of tissue paper.

[Ozza]

Its a pretty good draft year.

Knowing what we know now, there wouldn't be team or club in history that doesn't take Buddy no.1.

GvGjr - I hear what you're saying about Clarkson valuing Roughead how he does - but coaches are like that. Allan Jeans said Chris Mew was always first picked and the most important player in his side. But we all know Chris Mew isn't the player that Dunstall, Brereton, Platten was. Coaches look for different things. Someone like Buddy comes up probably only once every 15 years - and will go down as a top 10 player ever. That 2008 qualifying final still gives me the chills, in a bad way.