WB Game Day V St. Kilda R2 2020

[Rocket Science]

Fark, imagine what an angry Giants outfit looking to atone for an ordinary loss is likely to do to this team.

[jeemak]

We're making Zac Jones look better than marginally competent for *!*!*!*!s sake.

[AndrewP6]

I’m glad I don’t have to go. I don’t think I will try even when they open up the gates again.

[Eastdog]

Current live % 45.2%

[AndrewP6]

Bont is out of form. 1st time in his career.

3rd game in a row he’s been rubbish.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Lloyd, now Crozier, just stupid skill errors.
We are a deadset bottom side no.
How that can be with so much talent on our list is an indictment on the whole club.

[Eastdog]

Terrible Dogs Terrible

[jeemak]

Pathetic hands from English, Williams. Just makes it too hard.

[whythelongface]

What the hell is going on? That was terrible.

[DOG GOD]

Lloyd, now Crozier, just stupid skill errors.
We are a deadset bottom side no.
How that can be with so much talent on our list is an indictment on the whole club.

Players not wanting to play for the coach ?

[Rocket Science]

Doubts over the game plan and personnel are kinda moot when you can't even kick or catch the bloody pill.

[GVGjr]

At the moment it's like watching the Harlem Globetrotters vs the Washington Generals

There is some work to do isn't there?

[FrediKanoute]

So anybody care to suggest where the blame for this game lies? I am a fan of Bevo, but we need to take stock whether the team he has is capable of contending. 2017 a hangover; 2018 an extended hangover; 2019 the start of a fightback.......

[Sedat]

St Kilda getting such clean clearances from stoppages, courtesy of their ruck dominance. By contrast we work overtime to get dirty ball inside F50.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Goodnight 2020...its been crap

[FrediKanoute]

Lloyd, now Crozier, just stupid skill errors.
We are a deadset bottom side no.
How that can be with so much talent on our list is an indictment on the whole club.

There are some guys who have been reading their own publicity a little too much......

[angelopetraglia]

How can we be this bad at the basics? Dropping uncontested marks. Set shots terrible. Handballs missing targets from 2m. Fumbles. Grubber kicks.

[mjp]

There is some work to do isn't there?

Some?

I would how bad a performance it would have to be for there to be a LOT of work to do.

Willingness to run and in particular, run and defend is at an all time low.

[Happy Days]

That hitout stat is really really bad. I’m not saying drop Tim but Trengove or Sweet has to play next week.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

JJ pulling out of a contest, which wasn't actually a contest, to then pretend he was injured is the highlight of the night

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Skills are poor but really we lack attitude and application.

[FrediKanoute]

St Kilda getting such clean clearances from stoppages, courtesy of their ruck dominance. By contrast we work overtime to get dirty ball inside F50.

I can't agree with that. They are running harder; running smarter; they are making the ruck work for them.

I agree English is not the finished article, but his midfield have made him look bad by being 2nd to the ball

[Happy Days]

Like getting beat up by Grundy is one thing, but getting beat up even worse by an absolutely washed Paddy Ryder is a tragedy.

[DOG GOD]

So anybody care to suggest where the blame for this game lies? I am a fan of Bevo, but we need to take stock whether the team he has is capable of contending. 2017 a hangover; 2018 an extended hangover; 2019 the start of a fightback.......

I’ll start with 2 glaring points...

1) we have no game plan
2) we don’t select our best available team

[josie]

Arrgh-skills are the difference. In a short season losing is one thing but getting blown out of the water could be difference between top 8 finish or not. What has happened to our much vaunted midfield too?

[dukedog]

So anybody care to suggest where the blame for this game lies? I am a fan of Bevo, but we need to take stock whether the team he has is capable of contending. 2017 a hangover; 2018 an extended hangover; 2019 the start of a fightback.......

100 percent have the cattle/ Types. Skills have been shit at the dogs since McCartney days. Hasn't changed. If you aren't Richmond like contest. You need skills. We have neither right now

[Sedat]

Has anyone timed a hot 5 week patch of form better than Bailey Dale last year? Since his 3 year contract extension, he's barely touched the ball.

[Grantysghost]

We have never got the ruck right under Bevo. Amazing really. He has a blind spot there I think.

[dukedog]

Billy Bowers and Gardiner. Are they getting games so they can prove themselves or gone end of year?. Both are absolute junk

[comrade]

JJ pulling out of a contest, which wasn't actually a contest, to then pretend he was injured is the highlight of the night

Old mate needs to stick with his clothing line and smoothie joint.

[bornadog]

JJ pulling out of a contest, which wasn't actually a contest, to then pretend he was injured is the highlight of the night

There are no highlights

[jeemak]

So anybody care to suggest where the blame for this game lies? I am a fan of Bevo, but we need to take stock whether the team he has is capable of contending. 2017 a hangover; 2018 an extended hangover; 2019 the start of a fightback.......

The coach has gone so far up his own arse it isn't funny. If you refuse to select your best team week in week out for whatever reason everyone at the club starts to question what the hell you're doing. I've seen it happen and it's happening with us. The players know they don't have the best personnel out there and it's affecting how they play.

We also have too many players who won't do the fundamentals as well as they should.

Additionally, we're missing three players who would make us better if available in Wood, Hunter and Liberatore and the cover we have in the side isn't as competent.

But overwhelmingly this falls on the people managing the coach. It frustrates me that a continual pattern of being too cute at selection punishes us, and once rectified benefits us. How can the pattern persist without those managing the coach stepping in?

[Happy Days]

Had anyone timed a hot 5 week patch of form better than Bailey Dale last year? Since his 3 year contract extension, he's barely touched the ball.

Dale sucks. He absolutely refuses to apply any pressure on the way out and has put in half hearted efforts his whole career.

[GVGjr]

So anybody care to suggest where the blame for this game lies? I am a fan of Bevo, but we need to take stock whether the team he has is capable of contending. 2017 a hangover; 2018 an extended hangover; 2019 the start of a fightback.......

It's an interesting question. He has a lot of say on who we maintain on the list and who we select for the games but he needs to be given sometime to see if he can figure out what is going wrong with a number of area's including our work rate and desire.

If we put in a sub-par performance against GWS on Friday night there will be a lot of media speculation about his ability to chart the right course for us

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We used to have a lot of blokes who were relentless in running both ways. Those days seem long gone.
I don't know what we're trying to do strategically anymore.

[josie]

Agree regarding Gardner and Gowers and English is not a number 1 ruck.

[1eyedog]

I can't agree with that. They are running harder; running smarter; they are making the ruck work for them.

I agree English is not the finished article, but his midfield have made him look bad by being 2nd to the ball

Nope English is getting towelled by a VFL ruckman. Marshall's hits to advantage have been exemplary because Tim is applying zero pressure.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I don’t get JJ mean hair cut, look at me books and he hears footsteps in the field. Shocking attempt to look like I’m trying to mark on the wing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Had anyone timed a hot 5 week patch of form better than Bailey Dale last year? Since his 3 year contract extension, he's barely touched the ball.

Beveridge?

Had we not had that patch and made the finals, dare say his job wouldn't be too comfortable right about now.

[bornadog]

Dale sucks. He absolutely refuses to apply any pressure on the way out and has put in half hearted efforts his whole career.

Dale, Gowers, Lloyd can't all play together. Lloyd has sprayed every kick he has had

[Vred]

Should of let the saints take Bevo last year instead of resigning him on another 3 year deal. How can we have a team with such more ‘’talent’’ yet the game plan it beyond terrible.

How *!*!*!*!ing brain dead is our match selection. Do they not watch the same *!*!*!*!ing game that we do? On what planet should THIS team be put on the field, I don’t give a flying shit who ‘’trains’’ better I care about who’s given us results in the past. Where is Libba, Trengove, hell, Young, when is it time to hold the coach responsible for this lack luster piece of shit effort that this pathetic team is putting up? It’s actually *!*!*!*!ing embarrassing to say you follow this team sometimes.

GOD I *!*!*!*!ing hope we manage to hold onto some of these players over the next 2-3 years whilst Bevo continues to run this team into the ground with his complete hatred for Ruckman and picking good players.

To say I am pissed off is an understatement.

[bornadog]

Jong has played well, but he won't take responsiblity with the ball

[Eastdog]

When will we wake up!

[comrade]

Bring back Cavarra, play Lachie Young, play Weightman. We’re going nowhere with this 22.

[Remi Moses]

Lots of pointing going on
Need at least Tom liberatore’s hardness around the ball

[dukedog]

Geez I hope english comes good. He looks like a type. But every bounce I have no faith he will win it. Hes a follower

[chef]

At least we arent going to have to use our first pick on Jamarra.

[Vred]

Geez I hope english comes good. He looks like a type. But every bounce I have no faith he will win it. Hes a follower

I’m done with English. Needs to go.

[Sedat]

Bailey Smith is a beauty

[EasternWest]

I wonder if Alex Keath is thinking about going back to cricket.

[Mantis]

Bailey Smith is a beauty

He’s been the only positive from out first 2 games.

[whythelongface]

I’m done with English. Needs to go.

Whilst his rucking is poor at least he gives us something around the ground.

[Eastdog]

Whilst his rucking is poor at least he gives us something around the ground.

Lots to improve on Tim but certainly not our worst player.

[chef]

Whilst his rucking is poor at least he gives us something around the ground.

But he needs to be able to ruck or hes a liability.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Gowers, Lloyd, Dale and Gardner have to be non-negotiable outs. Just putrid.

[dukedog]

I wonder if Alex Keath is thinking about going back to cricket.

I love this humoured in times of need

[EasternWest]

I love this humoured in times of need

I wish I was making a joke :).

[whythelongface]

But he needs to be able to ruck or hes a liability.

Does he though? Why can’t he play forward or back?

[dukedog]

Has someone got some stats on Gowers game tho.... the only thing I seen him do is a couple of clangers a turnover and a 50 against

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Is Bont colourblind?

[GVGjr]

Has someone got some stats on Gowers game tho.... the only thing I seen him do is a couple of clangers a turnover and a 50 against

3 kicks, 3 handballs and one tackle and mark

Welcome back Duke

[Mantis]

Has someone got some stats on Gowers game tho.... the only thing I seen him do is a couple of clangers a turnover and a 50 against

He just took a mark and kicked it back 30m... like, why?

[whythelongface]

Is Bont colourblind?

His kicking has been poor. To be fair he hasn’t exactly had much of it so it is hard to tell if his eyesight has deteriorated.

[kruder]

Gowers, Lloyd, Dale and Gardner have to be non-negotiable outs. Just putrid.

English, JJ, Sucking and Daniel not far behind them.

I still cant believe Daniel is playing in defence. The Match committee should also be dropped.

[comrade]

And another dagger into Gardner to end the night.

[Grantysghost]

Does the no d!ckhead policy apply to the MC?

[Dry Rot]

Some bright news - switch to 7Mate at 8.30 pm and watch the movie Bridge of Spies. A terrific true story well told.

Gary Powers' U2 is a metaphor for us this season.

[The bulldog tragician]

There are so many awful disappointing things about today that I’d like to at least pause for breath and acknowledge Bailey Smith ‘s game. To keep running, tackling, and presenting in a soul destroying effort like that was the mark of a very very good player.

[AndrewP6]

His kicking has been poor. To be fair he hasn’t exactly had much of it so it is hard to tell if his eyesight has deteriorated.

24 touches is plenty. He was woeful again.

[1eyedog]

Whilst his rucking is poor at least he gives us something around the ground.

Play him at CHF then and bring in Sweet or JT

[dukedog]

3 kicks, 3 handballs and one tackle and mark

Welcome back Duke

Cheers GVGjr.

Good to have footy back.... not ideal game days but that footy ay. Good to see so many safe woof members after the craziness. Let's see some positives out of this year in the coming weeks .

[Bullies]

Has someone got some stats on Gowers game tho.... the only thing I seen him do is a couple of clangers a turnover and a 50 against A dipping bird would give more of a contest than Gowers.

[jeemak]

I think we need to change tact and select our best team this week. Sounds like a strange approach sure, but it might be crazy enough to work.

[SonofScray]

Baz is the only player who looked like he was playing to his strengths and really backing in his ability. Naughty started to get motoring.

The rest of the Club need a kick up the arse. They are pissing away a Club defining era of football & in the same breath, given the industry woes, going to undo the gains from 2016.

We're coooked. Another season shot before it even started.

[Mantis]

I think we need to change tact and select our best team this week. Sounds like a strange approach sure, but it might be crazy enough to work.

Why would Bevo do something crazy like that? He just likes to pick ‘his’ team, not the best one.

[josie]

Someone needs to tell Bevo to bloody well play Trengove as our main ruck, do not play players coz they are “tough” if they cannot kick (Gowers) and drop soft players like Dale rather then give them a second chance and possibly Lloyd (slow with little pressure so if he cannot kick straight should not be in the side).

If season continues like this I think I will at least try and enjoy Bailey Smith become a superstar - he is a gem.

Also I wish some of our players took a leaf out of the gutsy efforts by Lin Jong.

[whythelongface]

24 touches is plenty. He was woeful again.

3 kicks up until 3/4 qtr time is extremely poor. He only started to amass some possessions late. Whilst 24 is plenty only 11 kicks and most were poor. Very very disappointing.

[chef]

Does he though? Why can’t he play forward or back?

Because hes a ruckman, has he shown anything in the other positions?

[josie]

Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

[Grantysghost]

There are so many awful disappointing things about today that I’d like to at least pause for breath and acknowledge Bailey Smith ‘s game. To keep running, tackling, and presenting in a soul destroying effort like that was the mark of a very very good player.

Agree really stood up. I thought Bailey Williams wasn’t too bad either.

[mjp]

Gowers, Lloyd, Dale and Gardner have to be non-negotiable outs. Just putrid.

That's fair, but are the players the problem or the fact that ALL of them are playing.

I admit to being happy that we picked forwards to play forward, but those 3 in particular are just going to be cutting each others grass all game - they are mid-sized, marking forwards. The best we have of that type (Dickson) didn't play.

I'm leaving the Gardiner one. I just don't think he is the problem and is such an easy target...he's played like 5 games and needs to be supported, not criticised. I would prefer Young (either version of Young tbh) but whatever.

[Danjul]

Because hes a ruckman, has he shown anything in the other positions?

English has never looked comfortable in the ruck. But he looks like a champion when he is not pretending to be a ruckman.

what a waste of talent playing him in an unnatural role. It throws the whole team out of balance.

Sorry to repeat myself, but facts are facts.

[Grantysghost]

I think we need to change tact and select our best team this week. Sounds like a strange approach sure, but it might be crazy enough to work.
Think I’ve got the perfect meme if that scenario eventuates ....

https://i.postimg.cc/ncSzX0KW/6-E22-B97-C-4-A2-C-4-C18-82-F1-B7842-F34-D352.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[whythelongface]

Because hes a ruckman, has he shown anything in the other positions?

But is he a ruckman? Sure that is where we have been playing him but he has other attributes that could be applied in other positions. Previously when he has gone forward he has provided a target and can take a good mark. Whether he can sustain it for a whole game is the unknown. Might as well try something and bring Sweet in.

[SonofScray]

Bruce is no good. Shache a far better option.

[josie]

I thought Bruce’s efforts in ruck and around ground were ok.

[GVGjr]

I thought Bruce’s efforts in ruck and around ground were ok.

He got just one hit out Josie. He's not much of a support ruck man and Saints fans will confirm that

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That's fair, but are the players the problem or the fact that ALL of them are playing.

I admit to being happy that we picked forwards to play forward, but those 3 in particular are just going to be cutting each others grass all game - they are mid-sized, marking forwards. The best we have of that type (Dickson) didn't play.

I'm leaving the Gardiner one. I just don't think he is the problem and is such an easy target...he's played like 5 games and needs to be supported, not criticised. I would prefer Young (either version of Young tbh) but whatever.

I think the fact all were selected (the forwards not Gardner) points to problems at Match Committee level. That they did not seem to think there was a sameness with similar weaknesses says a lot.

I think Bevo is a good coach, in the modern incarnation of one. I wonder however in light of his premiership, whether maybe his influence is encroaching on other areas that perhaps he'd be better leave to others.

I can empathise with Gardner. I love a rags to riches story. And if the others futher upfield were doing their job, we could perhaps let his deficiencies go as he tries to learn his craft. We clearly cannot afford that luxury right now. He does nothing better than either Young or Trengove, and a few things worse.

Our mdifield can't get a free pass either. They don't hurt teams, Smith and Bont excluded, but Dunkley, Macrae, Lipinski and anyone else who does minutes in there... they just don't have weapons, and Bont right now has had 3 games (2019 final included) where he was just ineffectual. That's a form slump based on his career output, and our midfield can't handle that. He's a league top tier player and he's not fired an effective shot for 3 games in a row.

[Danjul]

St Kilda rarely missed a foot pass under 40 metres. The receiver was usually 25 metres clear of their opponent. The incoming ball was on a low trajectory so a mark was assured. The Dogs kicking was appalling, their foot passes were impossible to mark. After diving awkwardly for the ball the receiver was out of the play.

Field kicking was bad, there was obviously a competition to see who could hit the roof first.

No wonder we cannot get to 10 goals in a game.

[Rocket Science]

That's fair, but are the players the problem or the fact that ALL of them are playing.

I admit to being happy that we picked forwards to play forward, but those 3 in particular are just going to be cutting each others grass all game - they are mid-sized, marking forwards. The best we have of that type (Dickson) didn't play.

I'm leaving the Gardiner one. I just don't think he is the problem and is such an easy target...he's played like 5 games and needs to be supported, not criticised. I would prefer Young (either version of Young tbh) but whatever.

Aye, there isn't a forward line in the league that can carry all of Lloyd, Dale and Gowers. On top of Wallis no less but at least the latter brings other elements. Did the coach really need this demonstrated in a game for points rather than an intra-club? Then again name one small-to-mid forward on our list who excels at defensive pressure.

Agreed Gardner's the least of our issues right now but he's an easy target because he's manifestly unready for the level, granted that's only amplified by the flaky unit around him, but he doesn't possess the judgement or the urgency we need in a key backman. Or the physicality. Or the skill-level with ball in hand. In fact I'd love someone more knowledgable to state his strengths besides being tall and rangy. Truly, what's the coach looking at with Gardner that's earning his faith?

What's more, as you touched on, that the MC feels getting games into Gardner rather than Lewis Young - who could be anything if managed with any degree of consistency - defies belief.

TBH though, none of this irks me as nearly much as them handing Gowers another game while expecting anything other than what we got tonight.

[josie]

He got just one hit out Josie. He's not much of a support ruck man and Saints fans will confirm that

Fair enough. Geez we had a lot of poor players tonight. What has happened to our (was) much vaunted midfield?

[Sedat]

He got just one hit out Josie. He's not much of a support ruck man and Saints fans will confirm that
Interested to hear your thoughts on how we become more competitive at ruck stoppages. We've given 12 months to English playing 80% game time in ruck with precious little support - it absolutely cost us 4-5 close games last year and his stoppage work has not looked like it has improved at all so far in 2020 (from an already unacceptable level in 2019). I feel like we are destroying him as a viable ruck project as he consistently gets mauled and is not competitive. He was smashed again tonight by a very good ruck combination, and his confidence is so shot he is struggling to contribute around the ground either linking up with the mids a-la Dean Cox or as a key forward target.

I think English has been horribly mis-treated by Bevo and the MC.

[jeemak]

Interested to hear your thoughts on how we become more competitive at ruck stoppages. We've given 12 months to English playing 80% game time in ruck with precious little support - it absolutely cost us 4-5 close games last year and his stoppage work has not looked like it has improved at all so far in 2020 (from an already unacceptable level in 2019). I feel like we are destroying him as a viable ruck project as he consistently gets mauled and is not competitive. He was smashed again tonight by a very good ruck combination, and his confidence is so shot he is struggling to contribute around the ground either linking up with the mids a-la Dean Cox or as a key forward target.

I think English has been horribly mis-treated by Bevo and the MC.

Cost us four to five close games? Not sure about that mate.

[Sedat]

Cost us four to five close games? Not sure about that mate.
Collingwood x2, Gold Coast, North Melbourne. There were other less close games but those 4 had opposition ruckman as BOG or in the votes at least.

[GVGjr]

I agree Sedat, we have invested a lot of effort in to developing English knowing that it was always going to take a lot of time
While I acknowledge that philosophies of the game is changing in regards to the ruck position, we needed to support English more last year and then again this year. His physical transformation is coming along well but he has stalled a bit in terms of his progress with the ruck craft. His timing for leaping into contests isn't quite there and he should be more of a force around the ground with his marking especially in the back half.
His confidence also can't be that high because he's an intelligent guy who would be hurting with some of the beatings he is taking.

Danjul often talks about him as a forward and there might be some merit in giving him some more time forward
The most viable option of playing Trengove and him spending 40% of the game in the ruck is an unlikely option so we either drop English for a few games and play Sweet or play both of the boys and see if that helps but I suspect it won't.

I still rate English but he needs a lot more specialized coaching and he needs some support in games. I'm note sure that will be forthcoming though. I think Comrade once rated him the 2nd most important player on our list after Bont so we do need to work out a way of getting him some genuine support

[Eastdog]

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/news/705748/match-report-dogs-toppled-by-saints

Match Report | Dogs toppled by Saints
The Western Bulldogs have fallen to St Kilda by 39 points at Marvel Stadium on Sunday night.


The season has not resumed the way the Western Bulldogs wanted, as they crashed to a 39-point defeat to St Kilda at Marvel Stadium on Sunday night.

Almost three months had passed between round one and round two due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and the Bulldogs started strongly.

But they were unable to sustain their early momentum, with the Saints latching onto the lead late in the first term before running out 14.4 (88) to 7.7 (49) victors.

St Kilda’s Max King kicked the opening goal of the game, before Mitch Wallis and Jack Macrae replied to give the Bulldogs an advantage.

But a number of chances went begging for the Bulldogs, and the Saints then capitalized with five of the next six goals to lead by 23 points at the major break.

A bright spark of the second term for the Bulldogs was a goal to debutant Laitham Vandermeer, but the Saints had all the answers.

They increased their lead to 40 points at the final change, before both sides exchanged a pair of goals in the final period.

It was the Saints on top in most of the key statistical areas – including contested (128-115) and uncontested (209-205) possessions, clearances (39-34), marks (91-55) and tackles (56-50).

Midfielder Josh Dunkley was a clear standout for the Bulldogs around the contest, finishing with 28 disposals, eight tackles and a goal, while second-year player Bailey Smith stood tall with 29 disposals and six clearances.

Lin Jong impressed in his first AFL game since 2018, finishing with 17 touches.

The result leaves the Bulldogs at the bottom of the AFL ladder after two rounds, ahead of a pivotal clash against the GWS Giants at Marvel Stadium on Friday night.

MATCH DETAILS

ST KILDA 3.1 7.3 12.4 14.4 (88)
WESTERN BULLDOGS 2.4 3.4 5.6 7.7 (49)

GOALS
St Kilda: Billings 3, Butler 2, King 2, Hannebery, Hind, Jones, Lonie, Marshall, Steele, Membrey
Western Bulldogs: Macrae, Richards, Vandermeer, Wallis, Williams, Naughton, Dunkley

BEST
St Kilda: Billings, Butler, Jones, Ross, Steele, Hannebery
Western Bulldogs: Dunkley, Smith, Lipinski, Macrae

INJURIES
St Kilda: Nil
Western Bulldogs: Nil

NEXT WEEK
Round 3, Western Bulldogs v GWS Giants, Friday June 19, Marvel Stadium, 7.50pm AEST

[The bulldog tragician]

If we were pushing games into Gardner because he’s our future and/or we had no other options, I’d be patient. When Lewis Young can’t get a game and nor can Trengove then I’m at a loss.

Regarding Gardner: I have to say too that I always fear a pack mentality and feel very much for how hard it is for a young guy like him to be treated with derision. This is not personal against him, we’d all love him to be a feel-good story, I’d have leapt around the lounge room with joy if he’d played a blinder. He’s not the scapegoat for why we lost, but his selection does highlight something we’re all seeing - Bevo’s doggedness and stubbornness have become a liability. I have wanted for a while to see him more challenges for him around selection and tactics, and I fear that without different voices, he is becoming more insular, which isn’t a good thing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Interested to hear your thoughts on how we become more competitive at ruck stoppages. We've given 12 months to English playing 80% game time in ruck with precious little support - it absolutely cost us 4-5 close games last year and his stoppage work has not looked like it has improved at all so far in 2020 (from an already unacceptable level in 2019). I feel like we are destroying him as a viable ruck project as he consistently gets mauled and is not competitive. He was smashed again tonight by a very good ruck combination, and his confidence is so shot he is struggling to contribute around the ground either linking up with the mids a-la Dean Cox or as a key forward target.

I think English has been horribly mis-treated by Bevo and the MC.

Reminds me of Josh Fraser and feeding him to the wolves.

What do we do from here? We've invested so much time into English for very little advancement. We have no other rucks on our list besides Sweet, an untried raw kid. We've loaded up on forwards (Bruce, Naughton, Schache and soon JUH), how are we supposed to fit English into the equation let alone another ruck!?

Rucking Bruce and Schache is bloody painful to watch - I'd actually prefer to see Dunkley or Jong ruck. Our key defenders might even be worse than our ruck stocks.

Above all else, Bevo is so incredibly stubborn that he refuses to change. I like Naughton as a forward but he almost needs to go back for the balance of our list whilst I have no idea what we do with Schache.

[comrade]

How many times was Crozier, Williams and Daniel caught deep and without any coverage from a teammate?

Our defensive group is diabolical at the moment. No connection, no confidence, no idea.

[Hotdog60]

It was interesting that in the presser that a question was asked about our ruck/ centre clearance and it's not often a player gets singled out but the question was asked about Gardner.
Bevo response was to recognize we didn't do well with the ruck centre clearance and he defended Gardner's selection going on training and simulation work he had done.
Bevo admitted he didn't have the best of games.
On Naughton in my opinion we could have at least swapped him with Gardner at half time to get Naughton into the game and to take Gardner out of the spotlight.

[comrade]

If Gardner is standing out in training, I think it says less about his ability and more about our forward line.

[GVGjr]

SEN (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/06/14/saints-win-big-as-dogs-faulter-under-sunday-night-spotlight/)

Saints win big as Dogs falter under Sunday night spotlight



Western Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge will be searching for answers after St Kilda comprehensively outplayed them to the tune of 39 points at Marvel Stadium.

In the season’s first primetime Sunday night clash, the Saints lead by 23 points at half-time and didn’t stop from that point on.

More worryingly for the Dogs, St Kilda appeared to pick apart their defensive structure far too easily on multiple occasions throughout the contest.

“It was extremely disappointing from the Western Bulldogs besides the first 10 minutes,” Brownlow medallist Adam Cooney told AFL Nation.

Here's everything you need to know!

The talking point

Where are the Western Bulldogs at right now? That’s the main question emanating out of their second consecutive heavy defeat this season.

After their 52-point hammering at the hands of Collingwood in Round 1, the Dogs have had months to stew over that defeat and respond but their response on Sunday was meek at best.

Friday night against their fierce rivals GWS Giants suddenly looms as an early-season crunch clash.

The stars

Much has been made of St Kilda’s new recruits such as Zak Jones, Paddy Ryder and Brad Hill but the added firepower in the middle stands to benefit a number of other Saints midfielders.

One of those is Jack Billings, who was superb. If kicking three goals while rotating through the middle wasn’t impressive enough, he had the ball on 24 occasions.

He’ll be one to watch this year.

The debutant:

It was a dirty night for the Dogs but one positive they can take out of it was the debut of Laitham Vandermeer, who didn’t look out of place at senior level.

A solid night was highlighted by a goal in the second term.

[GVGjr]

The biggest concern about the bottom of the ladder Bulldogs (https://www.sen.com.au/news/2020/06/14/the-biggest-concern-about-the-bottom-of-the-ladder-bulldogs/)

It’s only Round 2, but is it time to start getting concerned about the Western Bulldogs?

The Dogs were comfortably beaten by St Kilda on Sunday night and sit on the bottom of the ladder.

The Saints ran them off their feet at Marvel Stadium in the 39-point win.

Garry Lyon says his biggest worry is that they haven’t backed up their talk following last year’s Elimination Final belting at the hands of GWS.

“The thing that concerns me most is the talk doesn’t match the effort,” he told SEN Breakfast.

“They spoke all summer about how embarrassed they were by the Giants and how they were bullied and how that was never going to happen again.

“And they came out and didn’t give a yelp against Collingwood and I was really critical of that and then you thought they’ve got 12 weeks, they don’t necessarily have to win, but they were favourites yesterday and St Kilda took them to the cleaners.

“That’s not taking anything away from the Saints who I think are one of the great stories out of this weekend.”

Tim Watson agreed, saying their last three performances have certainly been cause for concern.

“Do you want to add last year’s finals performance in there as well. That’s three games we’ve seen them in a row, they were beaten by GWS by 58, beaten by Collingwood by 52 and were manhandled again yesterday by St Kilda to the tune of 39 and it could have been a lot more as well,” he said.

“I am concerned about them. They went in on the weekend with the second youngest side at the weekend, only the Suns had a less experienced side than what they played at the weekend.

“We expect and we were expecting a lot more from them this season and they’re just not that cohesive.

“I know Luke Beveridge said at the end of the game, I don’t if we broke our hearts with some of our ball use – contest wise, intensity wise we weren’t consistent enough, all that sort of stuff.

“There was a lack of basics and fundamentals associated with the way they played yesterday. That kick that came in to Rowan Marshall, there was a whole heap of Bulldogs players inside 50, but not one of them occupied the space in front of the kicking lane.”

Things come full circle in Round 3 when the Bulldogs take on GWS at Marvel Stadium.

The Giants are coming off an upset loss of their own to North Melbourne.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We are severely lacking in leadership. I don’t think Bont is ready, at least in terms of on the field. I don’t think he is ready to hold players accountable on field. Then when you consider who is playing in our forward and back lines, who is there to provide leadership? Point players in the right direction? Hold them accountable? Let them know where they should be? I can’t think of anyone...we’ve lost Moz down back, Matty Boyd in the middle. Picko’s gone. Wood is out injured. Where’s the leadership coming from? Trengove would be the guy and I thought we recruited him for that, but we refuse to play him for some reason. Effort is a concerning issue no question but I get the feel every player out there is just lost and the burden is falling on the likes of Bont and Macrae and the other premiership players who are our “experienced” heads. But frankly they just aren’t ready.

[bornadog]

If Gardner is standing out in training, I think it says less about his ability and more about our forward line.

The bigger concern Comrade is if Gardner is playing well at training, what does it say about the players he is beating

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We are severely lacking in leadership. I don’t think Bont is ready, at least in terms of on the field. I don’t think he is ready to hold players accountable on field. Then when you consider who is playing in our forward and back lines, who is there to provide leadership? Point players in the right direction? Hold them accountable? Let them know where they should be? I can’t think of anyone...we’ve lost Moz down back, Matty Boyd in the middle. Picko’s gone. Wood is out injured. Where’s the leadership coming from? Trengove would be the guy and I thought we recruited him for that, but we refuse to play him for some reason. Effort is a concerning issue no question but I get the feel every player out there is just lost and the burden is falling on the likes of Bont and Macrae and the other premiership players who are our “experienced” heads. But frankly they just aren’t ready.

If Bont isn't ready now, he'll never be ready. No excuse. Every confidence he finds a way to turn this around, ditto Macrae, but those two have been awful for 3 big games in a row and deserve to be in the spotlight. They aren't kids anymore - this is their club.

[GVGjr]

Just listening to Ratten talk about last nights game. What is this prick playing at? Coherent, reasoned, honest and explaining where the Saints are it. It was shame the interview finished Surely this isn't the normal coach speak? :)

[comrade]

The bigger concern Comrade is if Gardner is playing well at training, what does it say about the players he is beating

That was my point, mate :)

[Mofra]

How many times was Crozier, Williams and Daniel caught deep and without any coverage from a teammate?

Our defensive group is diabolical at the moment. No connection, no confidence, no idea.
At one point St Kilda had 14 scoring shots from 17 entries. That's damning.

Taking our Hunter and Wood from the side, some players had no idea where to structure themselves.

[GVGjr]

That was my point, mate :)

Yeah, BAD's comment seemed to confirm exactly what you originally said

[GVGjr]

Whateley has called us out saying we are very much on the watch list to see how we respond

The pressure will start to mount if we don't answer the challenge this week

[azabob]

Whateley has called us out saying we are very much on the watch list to see how we respond

The pressure will start to mount if we don't answer the challenge this week

Does that mean Sedat will have to change his tune from also calling us out?

[merantau]

I wonder what thought, if any, was put into curbing Billings? This is not the first time he has dined out on us.
We badly need to win next game. In a 17 game season a 0-3 start would create an immense hill to climb. We need to make a statement but do we have the personal to make it? I hope so.

[Ozza]

If we were pushing games into Gardner because he’s our future and/or we had no other options, I’d be patient. When Lewis Young can’t get a game and nor can Trengove then I’m at a loss.

Regarding Gardner: I have to say too that I always fear a pack mentality and feel very much for how hard it is for a young guy like him to be treated with derision. This is not personal against him, we’d all love him to be a feel-good story, I’d have leapt around the lounge room with joy if he’d played a blinder. He’s not the scapegoat for why we lost, but his selection does highlight something we’re all seeing - Bevo’s doggedness and stubbornness have become a liability. I have wanted for a while to see him more challenges for him around selection and tactics, and I fear that without different voices, he is becoming more insular, which isn’t a good thing.

This is a really good post. I think you've nailed it in terms of what most posters are feeling. Its not personal on Gardner, we want all Bulldogs players to succeed, but it points to a more puzzling broader issue, which is the mindset of the coach, or at least how we perceive it as invested supporters.

[GVGjr]

This is a really good post. I think you've nailed it in terms of what most posters are feeling. Its not personal on Gardner, we want all Bulldogs players to succeed, but it points to a more puzzling broader issue, which is the mindset of the coach, or at least how we perceive it as invested supporters.

Gardner actually ticks a few boxes in what he potentially offers us. At 197cm he has a nice height for a KP player and possess good speed. If he gets it right he will be a welcome addition to the side. I question if we are doing him any favors but making him one of two key defenders though

[bornadog]

Gardner actually ticks a few boxes in what he potentially offers us. At 197cm he has a nice height for a KP player and possess good speed. If he gets it right he will be a welcome addition to the side. I question if we are doing him any favors but making him one of two key defenders though

I think one of his issues is he is not strong enough to be KP.

[1eyedog]

Gardner actually ticks a few boxes in what he potentially offers us. At 197cm he has a nice height for a KP player and possess good speed. If he gets it right he will be a welcome addition to the side. I question if we are doing him any favors but making him one of two key defenders though

I'm not sure I like the idea of three 195cm+ boys down there while he learns his craft. He needs to provide more than speed if he is going to play 3rd tall. If he was a neat kick or read the ball better through the air I'd be open to it but I have not seen one positive passage of play from him. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh there but his selection is a big concern for me.

Cordy is an awkward kick but it's reasonably effective. He's also aggressive in the air and mobile enough to play the 3rd tall role. He needs to replace him ASAP.

[Ozza]

Gardner actually ticks a few boxes in what he potentially offers us. At 197cm he has a nice height for a KP player and possess good speed. If he gets it right he will be a welcome addition to the side. I question if we are doing him any favors but making him one of two key defenders though

Its about picking the best team right now.
Lewis Young is 197cms, Trengove is 197cms. Young is younger than Gardy - Trengove older - but both offer far more to the side now.
Gardy might test well for speed, but speed in a football game is different altogether - I'm tipping anticipation makes up for a fair bit, if not all, in the difference between some 20m speed testing. Gardy certainly didn't look like he possessed speed yesterday. I can understand it is a learning and confidence thing, but you don't get to do your base learning at AFL level in my view.

[GVGjr]

Its about picking the best team right now.
Lewis Young is 197cms, Trengove is 197cms. Young is younger than Gardy - Trengove older - but both offer far more to the side now.
Gardy might test well for speed, but speed in a football game is different altogether - I'm tipping anticipation makes up for a fair bit, if not all, in the difference between some 20m speed testing. Gardy certainly didn't look like he possessed speed yesterday. I can understand it is a learning and confidence thing, but you don't get to do your base learning at AFL level in my view.

Spot on, we need to pick team that give us the best chance of a win and a more spirited 4 quarter effort

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We all were somewhat shocked at selections last week. Too small down back for the saints’ talls. The counter argument was that through zoning off, we could intercept and run them off their feet. However we all saw how many times the saints forwards were just one on one with say Caleb, Williams or JJ. I mean having a scenario of Max King one on one with someone giving 10cm is a recipe for disaster. At one point Steele was taking marks in the goal square. What does that say about our setup? It’s poor selection but also poor execution of any fundamental game plan. It was diabolical. Both Collingwood and the saints have been able to do whatever they want all over the ground. We’d struggle to beat VFL sides in current form it’s that bad. We need to go back to basics

[Sedat]

Does that mean Sedat will have to change his tune from also calling us out?
If Whateley said that, I'm on a 100% unity ticket with him. I decided to stop listening to SEN at the start of the year and my life has been all the better for it - I certainly don't miss the incessant ads for Robot Building Supplies and Hang My TV ;)

[Mofra]

Its about picking the best team right now.
Lewis Young is 197cms, Trengove is 197cms. Young is younger than Gardy - Trengove older - but both offer far more to the side now.
Gardy might test well for speed, but speed in a football game is different altogether - I'm tipping anticipation makes up for a fair bit, if not all, in the difference between some 20m speed testing. Gardy certainly didn't look like he possessed speed yesterday. I can understand it is a learning and confidence thing, but you don't get to do your base learning at AFL level in my view.
The speed of F50 entries would make anyone look slow.
Bearing that in mind, Alex Keath gets a pass mark at least. He actually took intercept marks during an avalanche.

[Happy Days]

The speed of F50 entries would make anyone look slow.
Bearing that in mind, Alex Keath gets a pass mark at least. He actually took intercept marks during an avalanche.

I thought Keath was solid, but he seemed all to willing to spray his teammates, which is an interesting power move from a second game player.

[jeemak]

If Whateley said that, I'm on a 100% unity ticket with him. I decided to stop listening to SEN at the start of the year and my life has been all the better for it - I certainly don't miss the incessant ads for Robot Building Supplies and Hang My TV ;)

I made that change ten years ago and never looked back. It's tripe.

[jeemak]

I thought Keath was solid, but he seemed all to willing to spray his teammates, which is an interesting power move from a second game player.

Yeah, it speaks to frustration on the field (possibly with selection and personnel) but also a lack of control that needs to be tempered.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yeah, it speaks to frustration on the field (possibly with selection and personnel) but also a lack of control that needs to be tempered.

I for one was actually happy to see at least some semblance of aggression and gaf

Who’s worse right now, us or Adelaide? One has zero aggression the other only against each other

[Mofra]

I thought Keath was solid, but he seemed all to willing to spray his teammates, which is an interesting power move from a second game player.
Good.

We traditionally have been too 'nice' on the field, save for the wog-squad of the 90s.
Keath is a really solid, well-spoken guy off the field so things must be hitting the fan if he's getting vocal. Maybe he sees himself as a leader in defence which is more than welcome in my book.

[Grantysghost]

Good.

We traditionally have been too 'nice' on the field, save for the wog-squad of the 90s.
Keath is a really solid, well-spoken guy off the field so things must be hitting the fan if he's getting vocal. Maybe he sees himself as a leader in defence which is more than welcome in my book.

Although....

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2020-western-bulldogs-problems-fox-air-video-teammates-arguing-with-each-other-leads-to-st-kilda-goal/news-story/29d8fb2372db94be72ba87f8087195c9

[GVGjr]

Although....

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-2020-western-bulldogs-problems-fox-air-video-teammates-arguing-with-each-other-leads-to-st-kilda-goal/news-story/29d8fb2372db94be72ba87f8087195c9

Very damning isn't it?

[bornadog]

Very damning isn't it?

The backline looked a bit lost and with no Wood there or a Duryea, we had guys that haven't played together much. Williams is not a leader, nor is JJ or Daniel at this stage

[azabob]

If Whateley said that, I'm on a 100% unity ticket with him. I decided to stop listening to SEN at the start of the year and my life has been all the better for it - I certainly don't miss the incessant ads for Robot Building Supplies and Hang My TV ;)

All you need to listen to is the RSN Breakfast Club (927) live or via their daily podcast.

[GVGjr]

All you need to listen to is the RSN Breakfast Club (927) live or via their daily podcast.

When I'm working from home I listen to SEN Adelaide's broadcast with Cornes and Hayes and in the afternoon RSN's podcasts

[AndrewP6]

God that footage is depressing. If you’re gonna try to be a leader, maybe don’t concede goals whilst arguing with teammates.