Always Right Match Committee - Round 3 Vs GWS 2020

[Scraggers]

Welcome to the Always Right Match Committee Thread. The Match Committee threads has been named after long time WOOF member Always Right who tragically passed away in March 2018.


If you were on the Western Bulldogs match committee what changes would you make after our Round 2 match against St.Kilda for our Round 3, 2020 match against GWS at Marvel Stadium on Friday night?

For those new to these threads, please give a brief explanation for your changes ... this would add a lot of value to the discussion.

[GVGjr]

Bumpity Bump

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Out: Gardner, Gowers, Lloyd, Dale.
In: Trengove, Dickson, Liberatore, Mclean

[The Bulldogs Bite]

In: Roarke Smith
Out: Bailey Smith

More likely than the obvious changes required.

[Mantis]

In: Roarke Smith
Out: Bailey Smith

More likely than the obvious changes required.

Needs more Will Hayes.

[The Underdog]

I don’t know about ins, but at the moment Suckling, Gowers, Lloyd, Dale and Gardner are the obvious choices for outs in the short term.
Bruce needs to show more. I’m becoming a bit concerned about Macrae. We need to do something about our inability to defend on a turnover.

[The bulldog tragician]

In: Roarke Smith
Out: Bailey Smith

More likely than the obvious changes required.

On a grim night this at least made me laugh.

[bornadog]

Out: Gardner, Gowers, Lloyd, Dale.
In: Trengove, Dickson, Liberatore, Mclean

Does Sweet get a call up?

[GVGjr]

Does Sweet get a call up?

It's probably a good game to consider it but do we need 2 ruck man in that game where Sam Jacobs is their number 1?

[Hotdog60]

Out: Gardner, Gowers, Lloyd, Dale.
In:Weightman, Liberatore,Sweet, Le.Young

[GVGjr]

de Boer will go to Bontempelli so we need to find a way to curb that

I suspect 2 of Gowers, Dale and Lloyd will be dropped and we will bring in Cordy and Liberatore to add some mongrel to the side

Sweet a chance to debut as is Weightman

[Bulldog Joe]

It's probably a good game to consider it but do we need 2 ruck man in that game where Sam Jacobs is their number 1?

I think we need at least one ruckman who can actually ruck. English is not that player.

[EasternWest]

I don’t know about ins, but at the moment Suckling, Gowers, Lloyd, Dale and Gardner are the obvious choices for outs in the short term.
Bruce needs to show more. I’m becoming a bit concerned about Macrae. We need to do something about our inability to defend on a turnover.

Suckling has been getting away with that putrid level of pus for years. Why would the attention turn to him now?

[bornadog]

In: Libba, Wood (if he is ok), Sweet, Trengove, Dickson

Out: Gowers, Gardner, English, Dale, Lloyd,

[The Underdog]

Suckling has been getting away with that putrid level of pus for years. Why would the attention turn to him now?

I disagree, in that at times, I thought he ‘s been excellent. He’s played 2 awful games so far this season though and needs to be accountable as a senior player.

[Danjul]

I don’t know about ins, but at the moment Suckling, Gowers, Lloyd, Dale and Gardner are the obvious choices for outs in the short term.
Bruce needs to show more. I’m becoming a bit concerned about Macrae. We need to do something about our inability to defend on a turnover.

The cure is simple.

1. Have the receiver in the clear and the player with the ball able to kick properly. Like St Kilda had tonight.
2. Have a dominant ruck. Like St Kilda had tonight.
3. Stop the ridiculously long handball chains. Like St Kilda did tonight.

Then there won’t be enough turnovers to worry about.

[GVGjr]

In: Libba, Wood (if he is ok), Sweet, Trengove, Dickson

Out: Gowers, Gardner, English, Dale, Lloyd,

Wood is out for maybe 2 more weeks according to Bevo

[comrade]

#SendNaughtonBack

[Danjul]

It's probably a good game to consider it but do we need 2 ruck man in that game where Sam Jacobs is their number 1?
the Bulldogs don’t have 2 ruckmen (yet).

[GVGjr]

Some quotes from Bevo's presser which might help with selections this week

LB: We’ve got to remain glass half full - there has been some change in our side. Some of our younger guys will grow week to week. We’re always in a state of transition, you’ve just got to keep an open mind and stay positive.

LB: Tom is on the fringe, hadn’t played footy in a long time. He’ll come into consideration, had a good training run on Saturday. He’s had injury turmoil with those knees and we need to make sure they are totally right.

LB: It was a better start than round 1. We missed some opportunities, but after that - we didn’t use ball well enough and what we geared up for intensity wise fell apart.

LB: I’ve got a strong belief in our players and our group.

LB: Easton Wood will be out for a couple of weeks with a thigh injury.

LB: The players will look deep and reflect on what they can do better, but we can’t play paranoid footy. We need to find a real balance of challenging them and believing in them.

[GVGjr]

the Bulldogs don’t have 2 ruckmen (yet).

You've been pushing Sweets name forward under the guise of a ruck man :)

[westbulldog]

In Liberatore Sweet Weightman Young
Out Gowers Gardner Dale Lloyd

[Danjul]

You've been pushing Sweets name forward under the guise of a ruck man :)
I was saying English isn’t a ruckman. Watch the last 2 seconds of each of his contests. His opponent usually.......

[Scraggers]

If Gardener gets another game this season I will spew up. That was deplorable.

In:- Libba, Cordy, Trengove
Out :- Gardener, Gowers, Dale

[GVGjr]

If Gardener gets another game this season I will spew up. That was deplorable.

In:- Libba, Cordy, Trengove
Out :- Gardener, Gowers, Dale

Like English, Gardner needs some support if he is to be played. He needs to be the 3rd tall defender
Will we drop him? I'm not so sure

[Scraggers]

Like English, Gardner needs some support if he is to be played. He needs to be the 3rd tall defender
Will we drop him? I'm not so sure

I can forgive the shank, but the guy just looked lost on the field. He didn’t know where to run when attacking and he looked lost in defence.

I know he is trying hard, but his read of the play is just not there. He is not at AFL level.

I would love to be proved wrong, but he is costing us a position in the backline.

[Happy Days]

Gardner fully can't play ever again. His skill level is deplorable, he's terrible one on one, doesn't intercept, and frankly looks terrified to be out there. This is his fourth season in the AFL system, there is nothing there with him (as another club already had the common sense to realise).

Yes, other players were more disappointing but no one was worse or even close. I'm getting text messages from my friends just laughing about how out of his depth he is.

We've apparently given up on Schache who is younger than Gardner and actually has done things in the AFL. Lewis Young is 18 months younger and has the ability to not fall over in every single contest he's in, but he isn't even given one game of latitude.

It's just so frustrating to see us piss games up against the wall under some rubbish guise of development or whatever and let good players sit on the sidelines. He has no business in the AFL and it's just self-flagelation playing him. I'm at a loss as to how anyone can be pleased or even sympathetic to his selection.

[The Adelaide Connection]

This is wildly experimental, but why don't we try playing a lineup that closely resembles what we were playing late last year?

You know, when we were pretty much dominating and one of the highest-scoring teams. Just crazy enough to work.

[Sedat]

It really doesn't matter what we do at match committee. If we don't have the 22 selected players 100% committed to fanatically bashing in and bashing up the opposition next week, then we have no pride whatsoever. That mob embarrassed us brutally in the finals last year - we didn't stop talking about 'redemption' all summer and fired blanks when the real stuff started. We did it again during isolation, and once again we dismally failed to match our actions with our words.

it will be career ending stuff for some players if there is a repeat of our last 3 competitive matches.

[Webby]

My every instinct said we were going to get done tonight from the moment the side was picked..

Why does Bevo take 9-10 weeks to get selection right EVERY YEAR!!??

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It really doesn't matter what we do at match committee. If we don't have the 22 selected players 100% committed to fanatically bashing in and bashing up the opposition next week, then we have no pride whatsoever. That mob embarrassed us brutally in the finals last year - we didn't stop talking about 'redemption' all summer and fired blanks when the real stuff started. We did it again during isolation, and once again we dismally failed to match our actions with our words.

it will be career ending stuff for some players if there is a repeat of our last 3 competitive matches.

Yep. Prematch I said I was interested to see us respond after another week of talking. When they kicked a couple in a row, you could see us fold like a pack of cards.

JJ is firmly in my sights. I think he epitomises us; looks amazing running freely with the ball when everything's going well but offers absolutely no resistance when it's not. In fact, he's a liability whenever the word pressure is even whispered.

His effort on the wing when he short stepped and avoided contact - when ironically there wasn't any coming - to then slip over and play up an injury was embarrassing.

JJ has been a favourite of mine from day dot in his debut v North, but I can't defend him anymore. He accepts defeat. He accepts the tag, he accepts being pushed around (while Crozier attempted to help him).

Big call, but I'd just about look at trading him.

[G-Mo77]

Hope for all these Ins everyone but be happy with minimal changes with Roarke and Hayes get the call up.

[comrade]

It really doesn't matter what we do at match committee. If we don't have the 22 selected players 100% committed to fanatically bashing in and bashing up the opposition next week, then we have no pride whatsoever. That mob embarrassed us brutally in the finals last year - we didn't stop talking about 'redemption' all summer and fired blanks when the real stuff started. We did it again during isolation, and once again we dismally failed to match our actions with our words.

it will be career ending stuff for some players if there is a repeat of our last 3 competitive matches.

I wouldn't be surprised if a large chunk of the playing group are sick of the whole Bevo schtick, particularly his whack job selection methods, and that kind of sub-conscious disenchantment is filtering through to their performances.

Only way I can explain the overall effort we're producing and how poor we are playing. Seeing Alex Keath ripping into Gardner was telling, IMO.

[Bullies]

I don’t know about ins, but at the moment Suckling, Gowers, Lloyd, Dale and Gardner are the obvious choices for outs in the short term.
Bruce needs to show more. I’m becoming a bit concerned about Macrae. We need to do something about our inability to defend on a turnover.
I too am concerned about Macrae. Has continued on this year from where he left off last year.

[Mofra]

I can forgive the shank, but the guy just looked lost on the field. He didn’t know where to run when attacking and he looked lost in defence.

I know he is trying hard, but his read of the play is just not there. He is not at AFL level.

I would love to be proved wrong, but he is costing us a position in the backline.
He actually made a few decent spoils in the first quarter and a half, but the kid's confidence is shot after the first two rounds. I think we'd be doing him a disservice if he played next week.

If Alex Keath - mild mannered, soft spoken, diplomatic Alex Keath - can actually have harsh words on the field about a teammate you now something isn't right.

[Mofra]

Hope for all these Ins everyone but be happy with minimal changes with Roarke and Hayes get the call up.
Roarke is injured, I don't think he's available.

With a five day break I expect a number of changes. I'd love Libba to get his chance, and one of Cordy/Trengove who are hard as nails.

[EasternWest]

Roarke is injured, I don't think he's available.

.

Let's pick him anyway!

[Remi Moses]

There’s a stat on socials saying macrae wasn’t in for one center bounce !
WTF is going on :mad:

[Mofra]

There’s a stat on socials saying macrae wasn’t in for one center bounce !
WTF is going on :mad:
Right now if it's for Bailey Smith, it's justified. He was on the wing at the start of every quarter

[The Bulldogs Bite]

There’s a stat on socials saying macrae wasn’t in for one center bounce !
WTF is going on :mad:

That's bizarre if true.

[The Pie Man]

Yep. Prematch I said I was interested to see us respond after another week of talking. When they kicked a couple in a row, you could see us fold like a pack of cards.

JJ is firmly in my sights. I think he epitomises us; looks amazing running freely with the ball when everything's going well but offers absolutely no resistance when it's not. In fact, he's a liability whenever the word pressure is even whispered.

His effort on the wing when he short stepped and avoided contact - when ironically there wasn't any coming - to then slip over and play up an injury was embarrassing.

JJ has been a favourite of mine from day dot in his debut v North, but I can't defend him anymore. He accepts defeat. He accepts the tag, he accepts being pushed around (while Crozier attempted to help him).

Big call, but I'd just about look at trading him.

The body language dropped away enormously - letting Butler run into an open goal while our defenders argued with each other….

Bitterly disappointing, but not altogether surprising.

[Ozza]

Outs

Gardner - I know this is mean. But I've been scratching my head to think of a less equipped Bulldogs player, ever.
Gowers - I think we're done Billy.
Dale - Is only downhill skiing, nice player when we are flying and he is icing. Can't have him in the trenches right now.
English - Worried about his confidence at the moment and took a big hit. Just gets bashed again by Jacobs if he's in.
Vandermeer - ok on debut - but the furnace gets hotter again this week.

Ins;

Trengove - Replacing Tim for a week rucking. Possibly goes to a defensive role after this week- but doesn't have a defensive match up v GWS.
Libba - if available and I've heard on the grapevine he is.
McLean - prefer Toby to Dale right now.
Young - thought he was good in our final last year - and if we need to develop a tall defender - prefer Young over Gardy.
West - Prefer over Vandermeer at this point in time.

JJ and Lloyd get another chance due to runs on the board. But JJ's acceptance of the tag is a real worry.

[bornadog]

Wood is out for maybe 2 more weeks according to Bevo

I didn't know that. I need to re -look at the team.

[comrade]

Outs

Gardner - I know this is mean. But I've been scratching my head to think of a less equipped Bulldogs player, ever.


I'm sure we've had worse players on the list but I don't think any had the opportunities gifted to him like Gardner has.

[Ozza]

I'm sure we've had worse players on the list but I don't think any had the opportunities gifted to him like Gardner has.

Yes, for instance, when did Gardy play a good VFL game?

[azabob]

Outs



JJ and Lloyd get another chance due to runs on the board. But JJ's acceptance of the tag is a real worry.

This has been a major worry since round 1 2017.

He needs to be dropped. But if he's dropped he won't come back in 2020.

[comrade]

This has been a major worry since round 1 2017.

He needs to be dropped. But if he's dropped he won't come back in 2020.

On the plus side, it gives him plenty of time to go shopping and take photos for IG.

[Ozza]

This has been a major worry since round 1 2017.

He needs to be dropped. But if he's dropped he won't come back in 2020.

We need JJ to be so much better. I don't think it is fair to class of all his last 3 and a bit years like that though - he has had plenty of good games spliced in there and came second or third in a B&F IIRC. And him being tagged should allow us to take advantage elsewhere, but I would assume it really brings his team mates down when he doesn't try and fight through the tag.

On another note, interested in poster's views on Caleb Daniel as a defender. In some ways, he has played his best footy at half back, but the team has not been a winning one with him there. I think Caleb needs to play forward, be the 7th mid when we do have the extra and work up and back as a half forward and even add some 'crumbing' that our forward line seriously lacks.

We won't get the sort of numbers from Caleb, but it might be whats best for the team, and he isn't much of a pure defender. With JJ, Suckling and Daniel....we have 3 of 6 that are playing back that don't defend one on one and are more attacking types. Arguably Bailey Williams has that in his game also.

[soupman]

I would run with the following (and have tried to keep it somewhere in the realm of actually possible):
Defensive group needs to be able to take Cameron, Himmelberg, Greene, Finlayson, Daniels and Lloyd.
Keath and Trengove take the big two. Finlayson and Lloyd are kind of talls but i wouldn't bring a tall in to cover them necessarily. Crozier, Williams, JJ all keep their spots, although JJ really needs to pull his finger out. Suckling I am meh on, Daniel is our main distributor there now so he is kind of redundant. Can't wait until we can bring Duryea in for him. At least Duryea has a bit of mongrel and does the defensive stuff fairly well. I'd probably bring Young in for Suckling just so we have someone else good aerially, you can decide if I mean Lachie or Lewis, either works. We got killed against St.Kilda with our inability to impact aerial contests. We couldn't mark it and we couldn't spoil it away, which meant their crumbers like Butler had a great time.

I'd probably only pick max 5 pure forwards. Naughton and Bruce are both must haves. I think we can only afford max two pure forwards who offers nothing other than a decent mark, so only two of Wallis, Gowers, Dale, Lloyd, Schache get picked. I'd go with Wallis and Schache. The former because he is tough, actually takes his chances unlike others (Dale and Lloyd on the weekend) and his pressure is ok. Schache gets in because I think he has some good attributes, is very clean with the ball both with his passing and his shots at goal, and i think unlike Lloyd and Dale he can push a ouch higher up the ground and offer a link up option. His "softness" doesn't matter because it isn't like the other blokes offer anything there. I don't know if Dickson is even alive but if he is he probably gets in ahead of Schache. My last forward spot goes to whoever can offer run and/or pressure. Cavarra, West, Vadermeer and Weightman are the candidates there. Don't care who, lets just keep Laitham he was decent.

Mids get the rest of the squad, which is 10 spots. We play one ruck. I prefer the idea of having Trengove play main ruck and allowing English to come up against a tired opponent or the second ruck and really roam the ground the rest of the game, but 16 minute quarters makes a two ruck strategy a bad strategy. Plus I actually want the steel Trengove brings to the backline and as if Beveridge ever concedes that English isn't enough. Bont, Macrae, Dunkley, Smith are all undroppable. I want at least one pure winger, and 2 forward/mids. Richards was decent in the winger role so he can keep it, Lipinski gets one of the forward mid roles. Jong stays in too, he was decent and at least brings aggression both physically and with the ball. So I'm left with one forward mid role to fill and another mid. Main candidates are:
-Liberatore, who brings mongrel but is a pure mid and ranks 5th in the mid rotation.
-Suckling, who is meh but atleast has a weapon and can fill roles everywhere mediocrely.
-Hayes, who is the closest thing we have to Hunter as a hard running link up option and could maybe get a role on Whitfield or Kelly, although we probably match up Richards on them like we did with Hill.
-West, offers pressure and movement.
-Mclean, Should be a walk up start, but two years of mediocre at best performances means he is thoroughly undeserving.
-Roarke Smith, has endeavour and can link up alright. Is injured but would just about make it if he was fit.


I'd probably go with Liberatore and West. I don't really rate Libba but feel we are definitely bringing him in anyway and he does offer some intensity and hopefully helps the rest of our midfield grow a backbone, especially against a GWS that will be very aggressive. West helps with forward pressure and movement off the ball.

Otherwise unlike the game on the weekend Macrae will attend atleast one centre bounce prior to halftime, nobody outside of the starting three mids plus Macrae and Libba is allowed in the centre square if we can help it. There isn't a heap of defensive depth there but i think the forward especially are much more likely to apply pressure than yesterday and there is more pace to help the lineup feel more dynamic and mobile.

So something like
Crozier, Trengove, Young
Williams, Keath, JJ
Richards, Bont, Jong
Schache, Naughton, Lipinski
Wallis, Bruce, Vandermeer
English, Smith, Dunkley

Daniel, West, Macrae, Liberatore

Changes:
Out: Suckling, Lloyd, Gowers, Dale, Gardner
In: Either Young, Trengove, Schache, West, Liberatore,

[The bulldog tragician]

It feels like this is one of the most important matches we've played post-2016. We know GWS will target us physically. We know that the footy world is now condemning us left right and centre and key players including our captain are under the microscope. A meek performance would be totally unacceptable. Over to you Boys, Men and Bevo Our Saviour.

[Happy Days]

I would run with the following (and have tried to keep it somewhere in the realm of actually possible):
Defensive group needs to be able to take Cameron, Himmelberg, Greene, Finlayson, Daniels and Lloyd.
Keath and Trengove take the big two. Finlayson and Lloyd are kind of talls but i wouldn't bring a tall in to cover them necessarily. Crozier, Williams, JJ all keep their spots, although JJ really needs to pull his finger out. Suckling I am meh on, Daniel is our main distributor there now so he is kind of redundant. Can't wait until we can bring Duryea in for him. At least Duryea has a bit of mongrel and does the defensive stuff fairly well. I'd probably bring Young in for Suckling just so we have someone else good aerially, you can decide if I mean Lachie or Lewis, either works. We got killed against St.Kilda with our inability to impact aerial contests. We couldn't mark it and we couldn't spoil it away, which meant their crumbers like Butler had a great time.

I'd probably only pick max 5 pure forwards. Naughton and Bruce are both must haves. I think we can only afford max two pure forwards who offers nothing other than a decent mark, so only two of Wallis, Gowers, Dale, Lloyd, Schache get picked. I'd go with Wallis and Schache. The former because he is tough, actually takes his chances unlike others (Dale and Lloyd on the weekend) and his pressure is ok. Schache gets in because I think he has some good attributes, is very clean with the ball both with his passing and his shots at goal, and i think unlike Lloyd and Dale he can push a ouch higher up the ground and offer a link up option. His "softness" doesn't matter because it isn't like the other blokes offer anything there. I don't know if Dickson is even alive but if he is he probably gets in ahead of Schache. My last forward spot goes to whoever can offer run and/or pressure. Cavarra, West, Vadermeer and Weightman are the candidates there. Don't care who, lets just keep Laitham he was decent.

Mids get the rest of the squad, which is 10 spots. We play one ruck. I prefer the idea of having Trengove play main ruck and allowing English to come up against a tired opponent or the second ruck and really roam the ground the rest of the game, but 16 minute quarters makes a two ruck strategy a bad strategy. Plus I actually want the steel Trengove brings to the backline and as if Beveridge ever concedes that English isn't enough. Bont, Macrae, Dunkley, Smith are all undroppable. I want at least one pure winger, and 2 forward/mids. Richards was decent in the winger role so he can keep it, Lipinski gets one of the forward mid roles. Jong stays in too, he was decent and at least brings aggression both physically and with the ball. So I'm left with one forward mid role to fill and another mid. Main candidates are:
-Liberatore, who brings mongrel but is a pure mid and ranks 5th in the mid rotation.
-Suckling, who is meh but atleast has a weapon and can fill roles everywhere mediocrely.
-Hayes, who is the closest thing we have to Hunter as a hard running link up option and could maybe get a role on Whitfield or Kelly, although we probably match up Richards on them like we did with Hill.
-West, offers pressure and movement.
-Mclean, Should be a walk up start, but two years of mediocre at best performances means he is thoroughly undeserving.
-Roarke Smith, has endeavour and can link up alright. Is injured but would just about make it if he was fit.


I'd probably go with Liberatore and West. I don't really rate Libba but feel we are definitely bringing him in anyway and he does offer some intensity and hopefully helps the rest of our midfield grow a backbone, especially against a GWS that will be very aggressive. West helps with forward pressure and movement off the ball.

Otherwise unlike the game on the weekend Macrae will attend atleast one centre bounce prior to halftime, nobody outside of the starting three mids plus Macrae and Libba is allowed in the centre square if we can help it. There isn't a heap of defensive depth there but i think the forward especially are much more likely to apply pressure than yesterday and there is more pace to help the lineup feel more dynamic and mobile.

So something like
Crozier, Trengove, Young
Williams, Keath, JJ
Richards, Bont, Jong
Schache, Naughton, Lipinski
Wallis, Bruce, Vandermeer
English, Smith, Dunkley

Daniel, West, Macrae, Liberatore

Changes:
Out: Suckling, Lloyd, Gowers, Dale, Gardner
In: Either Young, Trengove, Schache, West, Liberatore,

Cool and thoughtful post. I don't want to drop Suckling and find it hard to be too critical of the back 6 considering the ball was coming in hot and they were essentially playing one short. But I concur that the forwards need pay for a really piss poor performance that made the backline's job all that much harder.

I (think) I suggested Libba as a pressure forward elsewhere but West is a way better idea. Lloyd actually bothers to chase sometimes and is still the most dangerous around goals of the three so I would offer him a reprieve. Libba still comes in and probably plays a bit forward but not as a full time role. I'm cool if Gowers and Dale never play again.

Re either Young, I would like to see us play Lewis for Gardner; if we're trying to develop a defender let's try with the player who has actually shown he can defend. Lachie doesn't really have the size to play tall and most of our mid-sized defenders were actually pretty good. He's not as good a kick as Suckling so I wouldn't make a change off no exposed good form.

We need to play Trengove. I would drop Bruce for him, who looked slow and to be honest overweight, but that obviously won't happen so despite my wants (because who cares what I want) he can play instead of Young. As long as Gardner is out.

So:

In: Trengove, West, Libba

Out: Gardner, Gowers, Dale

I want to bring Schache in but he doesn't chase either.

[GVGjr]

I think West is still 2 weeks away. He's still on a modified schedule

[soupman]

It feels like this is one of the most important matches we've played post-2016. We know GWS will target us physically. We know that the footy world is now condemning us left right and centre and key players including our captain are under the microscope. A meek performance would be totally unacceptable. Over to you Boys, Men and Bevo Our Saviour.

We said this about the Collingwood game though, and how important it was to show that we are intense and tough and can't be outworked. The Saints game was our second go at that. I don't disagree with your statement, as if we fail to turn up for this one we are proper stuffed, but i wonder at what point we stop saying the next one is the most important and start saying the most important one was actually back in round 2.

[soupman]

Cool and thoughtful post. I don't want to drop Suckling and find it hard to be too critical of the back 6 considering the ball was coming in hot and they were essentially playing one short.

Suckling is probably my next in, he just goes missing so much and if he isn't finding the ball on the outside he really isn't doing anything for us. I actually think he tries hard and cops some unwarranted heat about his softness but I also don't think he adds any steel to us.


Lloyd actually bothers to chase sometimes and is still the most dangerous around goals of the three so I would offer him a reprieve.

I'm just annoyed that in 3 games he has basically not appeared and when he is missing shots from 35 out straight in front i really start to wonder what he brings to the side.



Re either Young, I would like to see us play Lewis for Gardner; if we're trying to develop a defender let's try with the player who has actually shown he can defend. Lachie doesn't really have the size to play tall and most of our mid-sized defenders were actually pretty good. He's not as good a kick as Suckling so I wouldn't make a change off no exposed good form.

Yeah I cannot believe that we have decided to pump games into a prospective key defender irresepective of form and have gone with the one that's shown no AFL attributes. Lewis Young is at a bare minimum Gardners equal in any category (and far better in most) aside from maybe training performance apparently.

I really like Lachie as a prospect and i think you could get away with him in the third tall role (on say Finlayson or Lloyd who aren't overly physical or strong overhead threats and in Finlaysons case are primarily good movers with a nice kick). He is one who I think if you pumped games into you would see some reward (or be better equipped to make the call to cut him).

[Happy Days]

I really like Lachie as a prospect and i think you could get away with him in the third tall role (on say Finlayson or Lloyd who aren't overly physical or strong overhead threats and in Finlaysons case are primarily good movers with a nice kick). He is one who I think if you pumped games into you would see some reward (or be better equipped to make the call to cut him).

Oh same. He's clearly got something to him, I just don't think that either he's a better player than Suckling right now nor that the season is a lost cause to the point that he should be playing ahead of Suckling, who is really the only option for him to play ahead of.

Also, if for no other reason we should look for reasons to keep him around to get his brother to come over at the end of next year

[Ozza]

I too am concerned about Macrae. Has continued on this year from where he left off last year.

I'm sorry, just checking that there some words or letters missing from this post? Did you mean that he 'hasn't' continued on this year where he left off last year? Because he was All Australian last year, so I definitely don't think he's picked up where he left off!!

[Happy Days]

I'm just annoyed that in 3 games he has basically not appeared and when he is missing shots from 35 out straight in front i really start to wonder what he brings to the side.
.

I heard an anecdote about Lloyd that he's continued to pay out of his own pocket for grappling classes that Richmond began undertaking in order to improve their tackling while he's been at our club, meaning that he's going out of his way to do even further physical training on top of the club's requirements to work at an aspect of his game that we could badly use.

I think he needs to lift but it's not for a lack of effort.

[Mofra]

Oh same. He's clearly got something to him, I just don't think that either he's a better player than Suckling right now nor that the season is a lost cause to the point that he should be playing ahead of Suckling, who is really the only option for him to play ahead of.

Also, if for no other reason we should look for reasons to keep him around to get his brother to come over at the end of next year
Right now he's a better defender than Suckling (especially in the air) and we need all the aerial cover wew can get, especially with Wood out

[Vred]

I would run with the following (and have tried to keep it somewhere in the realm of actually possible):
Defensive group needs to be able to take Cameron, Himmelberg, Greene, Finlayson, Daniels and Lloyd.
Keath and Trengove take the big two. Finlayson and Lloyd are kind of talls but i wouldn't bring a tall in to cover them necessarily. Crozier, Williams, JJ all keep their spots, although JJ really needs to pull his finger out. Suckling I am meh on, Daniel is our main distributor there now so he is kind of redundant. Can't wait until we can bring Duryea in for him. At least Duryea has a bit of mongrel and does the defensive stuff fairly well. I'd probably bring Young in for Suckling just so we have someone else good aerially, you can decide if I mean Lachie or Lewis, either works. We got killed against St.Kilda with our inability to impact aerial contests. We couldn't mark it and we couldn't spoil it away, which meant their crumbers like Butler had a great time.

I'd probably only pick max 5 pure forwards. Naughton and Bruce are both must haves. I think we can only afford max two pure forwards who offers nothing other than a decent mark, so only two of Wallis, Gowers, Dale, Lloyd, Schache get picked. I'd go with Wallis and Schache. The former because he is tough, actually takes his chances unlike others (Dale and Lloyd on the weekend) and his pressure is ok. Schache gets in because I think he has some good attributes, is very clean with the ball both with his passing and his shots at goal, and i think unlike Lloyd and Dale he can push a ouch higher up the ground and offer a link up option. His "softness" doesn't matter because it isn't like the other blokes offer anything there. I don't know if Dickson is even alive but if he is he probably gets in ahead of Schache. My last forward spot goes to whoever can offer run and/or pressure. Cavarra, West, Vadermeer and Weightman are the candidates there. Don't care who, lets just keep Laitham he was decent.

Mids get the rest of the squad, which is 10 spots. We play one ruck. I prefer the idea of having Trengove play main ruck and allowing English to come up against a tired opponent or the second ruck and really roam the ground the rest of the game, but 16 minute quarters makes a two ruck strategy a bad strategy. Plus I actually want the steel Trengove brings to the backline and as if Beveridge ever concedes that English isn't enough. Bont, Macrae, Dunkley, Smith are all undroppable. I want at least one pure winger, and 2 forward/mids. Richards was decent in the winger role so he can keep it, Lipinski gets one of the forward mid roles. Jong stays in too, he was decent and at least brings aggression both physically and with the ball. So I'm left with one forward mid role to fill and another mid. Main candidates are:
-Liberatore, who brings mongrel but is a pure mid and ranks 5th in the mid rotation.
-Suckling, who is meh but atleast has a weapon and can fill roles everywhere mediocrely.
-Hayes, who is the closest thing we have to Hunter as a hard running link up option and could maybe get a role on Whitfield or Kelly, although we probably match up Richards on them like we did with Hill.
-West, offers pressure and movement.
-Mclean, Should be a walk up start, but two years of mediocre at best performances means he is thoroughly undeserving.
-Roarke Smith, has endeavour and can link up alright. Is injured but would just about make it if he was fit.


I'd probably go with Liberatore and West. I don't really rate Libba but feel we are definitely bringing him in anyway and he does offer some intensity and hopefully helps the rest of our midfield grow a backbone, especially against a GWS that will be very aggressive. West helps with forward pressure and movement off the ball.

Otherwise unlike the game on the weekend Macrae will attend atleast one centre bounce prior to halftime, nobody outside of the starting three mids plus Macrae and Libba is allowed in the centre square if we can help it. There isn't a heap of defensive depth there but i think the forward especially are much more likely to apply pressure than yesterday and there is more pace to help the lineup feel more dynamic and mobile.

So something like
Crozier, Trengove, Young
Williams, Keath, JJ
Richards, Bont, Jong
Schache, Naughton, Lipinski
Wallis, Bruce, Vandermeer
English, Smith, Dunkley

Daniel, West, Macrae, Liberatore

Changes:
Out: Suckling, Lloyd, Gowers, Dale, Gardner
In: Either Young, Trengove, Schache, West, Liberatore,

I'm 100% fine by this, all day, every day.

[Sedat]

I don't get the Libba hesitancy. Take away his crap 2017 and he has barely ever let us down when he plays. Prior to his knee injury last year he was in our best handful of players. His hands are elite in tight and he is a natural ball winner. Our midfield depth is nowhere near as deep as we think, and we surely need a proven extractor in there when we generally concede the hitout more often than not.

If he's 100% right to go, let him rip. He certainly won't take a backward step when GWS unleash the heavy artillery.

[ReLoad]

I don't get the Libba hesitancy. Take away his crap 2017 and he has barely ever let us down when he plays. Prior to his knee injury last year he was in our best handful of players. His hands are elite in tight and he is a natural ball winner. Our midfield depth is nowhere near as deep as we think, and we surely need a proven extractor in there when we generally concede the hitout more often than not.

If he's 100% right to go, let him rip. He certainly won't take a backward step when GWS unleash the heavy artillery.

He's slower than my grandmothers half recharged scooter, provided he is played correctly and frees up someone who has leg speed, then its great. Sadly when he did play he was exposed a lot.

[bornadog]

My team for this week.


Daniel, Lew Young, Williams
JJ, Keath, Crozier
Jong, Bont, Richards
Vanda, Naughton, Wallis
Cav, Bruce, Weightman


Trengove, Macrae, Smith


Inter. Libba, Dunks, English, Lippa

[Danjul]

My team for this week.


Daniel, Lew Young, Williams
JJ, Keath, Crozier
Jong, Bont, Richards
Vanda, Naughton, Wallis
Cav, Bruce, Weightman


Trengove, Macrae, Smith


Inter. Libba, Dunks, English, Lippa

with Williams, JJ and Crozier on the backline I don’t understand why Daniel is there too. The pathetic amount of scoring recently demands an experienced general on the forward line. In this team half of the forwards contribute a total of 3 games experience.

If you swap Daniel and Vanda you gain speed off the backline and organisation on the forward line. And I would expect Daniel’s delivery to make Cav’s and Weightman’s game better.

[SonofScray]

IN:
Libba, Trengove, Shache, Lewis Young, Cordy, McLean


OUT
Gardner, Gowers, Lloyd, JJ, Bruce, Bevo (omitted)

[comrade]

IN:
Libba, Trengove, Shache, Lewis Young, Cordy, McLean


OUT
Gardner, Gowers, Lloyd, JJ, Bruce, Bevo (omitted)

How would you line up the team with those ins & outs?

[bornadog]

with Williams, JJ and Crozier on the backline I don’t understand why Daniel is there too. The pathetic amount of scoring recently demands an experienced general on the forward line. In this team half of the forwards contribute a total of 3 games experience.

If you swap Daniel and Vanda you gain speed off the backline and organisation on the forward line. And I would expect Daniel’s delivery to make Cav’s and Weightman’s game better.

Yes that is possible, why not.

[comrade]

My dream never-gonna-happen 22:

B: Crozier Naughton Williams
HB: LaYoung LewYoung Keath
C: Richards Dunkley Smith
HF: Lipinski English Cavarra
F: Weightman Bruce Wallis
R: Trengove Bont Macrae
I: Daniel Libba Vandermeer McLean

If Vandermeer doesn't pull up, Jong takes his spot.

Trengove to primarily ruck all day, with English having a few spells on the ball but mainly playing forward or even on the wing & in defence. Try him as a legitimate utility.

We probably wouldn't win with this side, but it would be twice as competitive as the teams we've rolled out the last 2 games.

[1eyedog]

My dream never-gonna-happen 22:

B: Crozier Naughton Williams
HB: LaYoung LewYoung Keath
C: Richards Dunkley Smith
HF: Lipinski English Cavarra
F: Weightman Bruce Wallis
R: Trengove Bont Macrae
I: Daniel Libba Vandermeer McLean

If Vandermeer doesn't pull up, Jong takes his spot.

Trengove to primarily ruck all day, with English having a few spells on the ball but mainly playing forward or even on the wing & in defence. Try him as a legitimate utility.

We probably wouldn't win with this side, but it would be twice as competitive as the teams we've rolled out the last 2 games.

I think we need JJ at HB that backline plays too tall.

[comrade]

I think we need JJ at HB that backline plays too tall.

I think it matches up fine against GWS with Cameron, Finalyson and Himmelberg.

And even if there is one tall too many, I'd try and get Keath off the leash to zone off as an intercepter.

JJ doesn't deserve a game after last night. You've still got Williams, Crozier and Lachie Young who can run and carry off half back. Plus Daniel & Richards who can roll back if needed.

[Mofra]

He's slower than my grandmothers half recharged scooter, provided he is played correctly and frees up someone who has leg speed, then its great. Sadly when he did play he was exposed a lot.
Yes, he's lost a little pace.

Read the autopsy thread though - not a single reason posited for our loss is legspeed. It's effort, care, skills etc. Libba bleeds for the club, is tough as nails and as a beautiful kick if given time on his left boot. If he's close to fit he comes in for mine.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Yes, he's lost a little pace.

Read the autopsy thread though - not a single reason posited for our loss is legspeed. It's effort, care, skills etc. Libba bleeds for the club, is tough as nails and as a beautiful kick if given time on his left boot. If he's close to fit he comes in for mine.

I’d add that he has the required hardness and mongrel needed to help tip the contests in the middle in our favour. I’d rather Libber in the maul feeding out the quick handball to Bontempelli et al. Josh Kennedy is pretty damn slow and was about Sydney’s best on the weekend for this reason.

The Saints were able to win the ball out of the contest way too easily, way too often. Is there anything worse than a ball kicked deep into the defence for a team that decides to play 6 million HBF’s and minimum chips KPD’s?

[bornadog]

The Saints were able to win the ball out of the contest way too easily, way too often.

Clerances were three different in their favour and we won the stoppages, so this is not true.

The worse stat were the clangers. We had 58 to their 44 - we handed them the game.

[Danjul]

A major part of the Dog’s problem is the lack of success in getting the ball to a runner who has space to run.
This has been leading to unhelpful handball and poor delivery.

We need a player whose talent is getting the ball to Bont or JJ who can open the game up and deliver with precision. That person doesn’t need speed. They need the talents that Libba has displayed.

(with those knees I prefer that he doesn’t run, walking is sufficient)

[bornadog]

A major part of the Dog’s problem is the lack of success in getting the ball to a runner who has space to run.
This has been leading to unhelpful handball and poor delivery.

We need a player whose talent is getting the ball to Bont or JJ who can open the game up and deliver with precision. That person doesn’t need speed. They need the talents that Libba has displayed.

(with those knees I prefer that he doesn’t run, walking is sufficient)

I would be suprised if Libba doesn't play this week, unless he has had a setback

[The Adelaide Connection]

Clerances were three different in their favour and we won the stoppages, so this is not true.

The worse stat were the clangers. We had 58 to their 44 - we handed them the game.

Just because the numbers were relatively even doesn't mean that it isn't true. I am asserting that this should have been an area of the game (on paper at least) we should have dominated, not lost overall.

Critically, the centre clearances were 14-9 their way. If you are going to pick a team with as few KPD's as we did (knowing they were going in tall) you are banking on winning centre clearances.

The clangers were definitely a problem. So was the ease that the took the ball out of the contest on far too many occasions.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Just because the numbers were relatively even doesn't mean that it isn't true. I am asserting that this should have been an area of the game (on paper at least) we should have dominated, not lost overall.

Critically, the centre clearances were 14-9 their way. If you are going to pick a team with as few KPD's as we did (knowing they were going in tall) you are banking on winning centre clearances.

The clangers were definitely a problem. So was the ease that the took the ball out of the contest on far too many occasions.
When Dan Butler and Zak Jones are made to look like vintage Gary Ablett Jr you know you're doing something wrong. We let them do whatever they pleased for most of the night.

[Rocket Science]

I would be suprised if Libba doesn't play this week, unless he has had a setback

While we're all fangin' to see Libba back on the park you'd hope the ace up Bevo's sleeve this week doesn't amount to recalling a bloke whose last game of competitive football was eleven months ago, not least of all because we need some 'protection'.

Perhaps it was the looming five day break but it's concerning he wasn't deemed fit for the Saints game ... Is an extra five days truly the difference after he's had almost a year to get the knees right?

Part of me worries throwing him in cold against the Giants isn't the best recipe for success, for Libba or us, particularly given the way we're travelling.

[Danjul]

Clerances were three different in their favour and we won the stoppages, so this is not true.

The worse stat were the clangers. We had 58 to their 44 - we handed them the game.

For me the worst stats were the saints had 60 more kicks and 40 more marks.

In other words, more penetration (1500m) and time to gain composure (10 minutes).

The way the Dogs are playing gives neither. I feel sorry for the players. Unless they are given a structurally balanced team and a better game plan to follow there’s no reason to try harder. It is pointless.

[Axe Man]

For me the worst stats were the saints had 60 more kicks and 40 more marks.

In other words, more penetration (1500m) and time to gain composure (10 minutes).

The way the Dogs are playing gives neither. I feel sorry for the players. Unless they are given a structurally balanced team and a better game plan to follow there’s no reason to try harder. It is pointless.

I agree that we over handballed and under kicked, as I posted in another thread.

However to be fair to the coaches it seems that was not the plan. Sounds like the players didn't push hard enough or quickly enough in transition to provide kicking options to the ball carrier. Could be mindset, fitness or personnel. Probably a combination of all three.

[bornadog]

I agree that we over handballed and under kicked, as I posted in another thread.

However to be fair to the coaches it seems that was not the plan. Sounds like the players didn't push hard enough or quickly enough in transition to provide kicking options to the ball carrier. Could be mindset, fitness or personnel. Probably a combination of all three.

Also the Saints pressure on our players forcing us to handball out of trouble.

[Danjul]

I agree that we over handballed and under kicked, as I posted in another thread.

However to be fair to the coaches it seems that was not the plan. Sounds like the players didn't push hard enough or quickly enough in transition to provide kicking options to the ball carrier. Could be mindset, fitness or personnel. Probably a combination of all three.
I am sure the commentators mentioned the handball statistics at about 3/4 time and said Beveridge wasn’t concerned.

Handball gets the players tired, bashed and out of position. I’m struggling to see much benefit the way we do it.

[bornadog]

I am sure the commentators mentioned the handball statistics at about 3/4 time and said Beveridge wasn’t concerned.

Handball gets the players tired, bashed and out of position. I’m struggling to see much benefit the way we do it.

I think you will find Bevo was concerned with the number of handballs to kicks ratio.

[Axe Man]

I am sure the commentators mentioned the handball statistics at about 3/4 time and said Beveridge wasn’t concerned.

Handball gets the players tired, bashed and out of position. I’m struggling to see much benefit the way we do it.

You are right, they did, however that is not what Bevo said post game which is all we have to go off. During the game I'm sure he didn't want to acknowledge to the opposition that he was overly concerned by it.

[DOG GOD]

Out- English, Gardner, lloyd, Dale, gowers, suckling
In- Trengove, Schache, Cordy, weightman, libba, McLean

And FFS play Naughton back.

B: Crozier Naughton Williams
HB: JJ Cordy Keath
C: Richards Dunkley Smith
HF: Lipinski Schache Daniel
F: Weightman Bruce Wallis
R: Trengove Bont Macrae
I: Jong Libba Vandermeer McLean

[FrediKanoute]

Out- English, Gardner, lloyd, Dale, gowers, suckling
In- Trengove, Schache, Cordy, weightman, libba, McLean

And FFS play Naughton back.

B: Crozier Naughton Williams
HB: JJ Cordy Keath
C: Richards Dunkley Smith
HF: Lipinski Schache Daniel
F: Weightman Bruce Wallis
R: Trengove Bont Macrae
I: Jong Libba Vandermeer McLean

I like most of it, but I think you have to persist with English.

[DOG GOD]

I like most of it, but I think you have to persist with English.

I understand, and I didn’t want to drop him, but against Jacobs, we need a big body, especially playing English as the only ruckman.

[comrade]

The Naughton-in-defence train is gathering steam...

I love it.

[Happy Days]

The Naughton-in-defence train is gathering steam...

I love it.

You've got the right answer but your working out is wrong. I like Naughton up forward more but we don't really have the luxury given Timmy has been woeful in the ruck and the backline desperately need someone to actually play on someone.

I still think we're a very real chance of doing something this year but only with the positional moves that playing Naughton in defence allows us to make. I've actually really liked how English has looked as a forward, Trengove will at least break even in the ruck and if Naughton is Carey he has it in him to be Jakovich too I guess.

[Danjul]

I like most of it, but I think you have to persist with English.
I don’t like Schache at centre half forward. He is not good enough over his head, but he is excellent on a lead if the ball is coming in correctly. One of English’s strengths is his overhead ability ( when that is all he has to worry about).

So English CHF and Schache out of a pocket.

[jazzadogs]

I agree with most other posters. 2-3 changes makes us an immeasurably more balanced and talented side.

Gardner out for Trengrove - brings in a bigger body to pinch hit in the ruck and allows Keath to chop out in defence with more confidence. The leadership benefits of bringing in one of the oldest and experienced players on our list are also significant.

Gowers out for Libba - we know Bont will get tagged, and he has been horrible in his last three games - so let's start him at half forward, with a midfield of Libba, Dunkley, Macrae, Bazlenka, Lipinski, Wallis in the first quarter or so. They'll probably put de Boer on Dunkley or Macrae, and hopefully Bont can get in the game without that attention.

Of the other potential changes, my preferred would be Bailey Dale out for Mclean. I don't see it as a massive change to our side though, as Mclean's season on the half-forward line was unimpressive. I only really want him in the side if he's pushing someone out of the midfield rotations - and that's not on the cards.

I don't think Suckling has been bad enough to drop.

I definitely don't think English has been bad enough to drop. Compare his career trajectory to Max Gawn and he comes out favourably - he just needs support, more experience and more strength.

I wouldn't bring in Weightman yet - he can use the scratch match on the weekend to show his wares.

[FrediKanoute]

I understand, and I didn’t want to drop him, but against Jacobs, we need a big body, especially playing English as the only ruckman.

Fie, if that's what we need, but I would then probably leave Schache out and play Naught's forward and Trengove back. English rests on the bench or forward and Trengove rucks

[comrade]

You've got the right answer but your working out is wrong. I like Naughton up forward more but we don't really have the luxury given Timmy has been woeful in the ruck and the backline desperately need someone to actually play on someone.

I still think we're a very real chance of doing something this year but only with the positional moves that playing Naughton in defence allows us to make. I've actually really liked how English has looked as a forward, Trengove will at least break even in the ruck and if Naughton is Carey he has it in him to be Jakovich too I guess.

I like Naughton forward too, who doesn't love a big screamer inside 50?

But I've always maintained that structurally, he's better for our team in defence.

And that was before our last 3 games!

[Jam Donuts]

Here's an idea from left field, by now the alleged Match Committee should have some idea of where the players are at and what position suits them best e.g Hunter - Wing etc, this is where it gets interesting, select a team based on where the players should be positioned, and leave them there for extended periods.. Never select an interchange bench without a back up ruckman on it to give some help to Timmy and above all select the team based on the best available players, not on the "let's give this guy a run", failed system, I would imagine that the young fellows need some stability in the early part of their careers, so give it to them. I know this is old school but it is where we are right now. Who needs 22 players that can play midfield, clearly we don't if some selections are an indication. The best players (McLean etc) are not being selected. Please do not waste this talent like this, it is very worrying.

[GVGjr]

I like Naughton forward too, who doesn't love a big screamer inside 50?

But I've always maintained that structurally, he's better for our team in defence.

And that was before our last 3 games!

My counter to that is that at the same time Templeton was making a name for himself as a key forward we had an undersized back line and resisted the temptation to move him

We should have looked at more options to sure up the back line in the preseason

[Danjul]

Here's an idea from left field, by now the alleged Match Committee should have some idea of where the players are at and what position suits them best e.g Hunter - Wing etc, this is where it gets interesting, select a team based on where the players should be positioned, and leave them there for extended periods.. Never select an interchange bench without a back up ruckman on it to give some help to Timmy ..... Please do not waste this talent like this, it is very worrying.

English is potentially the best forward in the competition. He has all the natural attributes and his time in the centre has given him a better overall awareness of play than most others. I can see All Australian stamped all over him.

English is not a ruckman. He doesn’t have the ruckman’s awareness of his opponent’s body, he is ball focused. And his proportions mean physics is against him.

But his height and agility and experience makes him the best back up (2nd ruck) we have had since Trengove. We have tried half a dozen others as fill-ins an they have failed miserably ( honourable mention to Cordy).

Who should be the ruckman you ask? Anyone who can subtly jump into the opponent’s body to put them off, like Ryder did on Sunday. They don’t have to win the contest, just stop the opponent from dominating.

Then we’re a winning team.

[westbulldog]

Imo if we are going to move English out of the ruck fulltime then he goes foward, Sweet comes in and Bruce goes. Bruce did sfa against the Saints

[1eyedog]

English is potentially the best forward in the competition. He has all the natural attributes and his time in the centre has given him a better overall awareness of play than most others. I can see All Australian stamped all over him.

English is not a ruckman. He doesn’t have the ruckman’s awareness of his opponent’s body, he is ball focused. And his proportions mean physics is against him.

But his height and agility and experience makes him the best back up (2nd ruck) we have had since Trengove. We have tried half a dozen others as fill-ins an they have failed miserably ( honourable mention to Cordy).

Who should be the ruckman you ask? Anyone who can subtly jump into the opponent’s body to put them off, like Ryder did on Sunday. They don’t have to win the contest, just stop the opponent from dominating.

Then we’re a winning team.

Agreed and this is why I was shocked we effectively let Campbell and Roughead walk. I think Tim can be a good ruckman but he is 3-5 years away from that at least and should be played forward and used in the ruck sparingly.

[Axe Man]

From AFL Website (https://www.afl.com.au/news/449840/in-the-mix-who-s-pushing-for-selection-in-round-three-):

After getting smashed by the Saints, the Dogs must find a proper stop-gap on the wing and get their key pillars sorted. With Easton Wood (quad) and Lachie Hunter (suspension) unavailable for the next few weeks, help will have to come from those on the outer. Coach Luke Beveridge has been careful to temper expectations on Tom Liberatore, while Toby McLean is down the pecking order in Beveridge's eyes.

Verdict: Zaine Cordy and Will Hayes replace Ryan Gardner and Billy Gowers. - Jourdan Canil

[comrade]

Verdict: Zaine Cordy and Will Hayes replace Ryan Gardner and Billy Gowers. - Jourdan Canil

Gross.

[The Pie Man]

From AFL Website (https://www.afl.com.au/news/449840/in-the-mix-who-s-pushing-for-selection-in-round-three-):

After getting smashed by the Saints, the Dogs must find a proper stop-gap on the wing and get their key pillars sorted. With Easton Wood (quad) and Lachie Hunter (suspension) unavailable for the next few weeks, help will have to come from those on the outer. Coach Luke Beveridge has been careful to temper expectations on Tom Liberatore, while Toby McLean is down the pecking order in Beveridge's eyes.

Verdict: Zaine Cordy and Will Hayes replace Ryan Gardner and Billy Gowers. - Jourdan Canil

They can't be our only changes.

[Axe Man]

English is potentially the best forward in the competition. He has all the natural attributes and his time in the centre has given him a better overall awareness of play than most others. I can see All Australian stamped all over him.

English is not a ruckman. He doesn’t have the ruckman’s awareness of his opponent’s body, he is ball focused. And his proportions mean physics is against him.

But his height and agility and experience makes him the best back up (2nd ruck) we have had since Trengove. We have tried half a dozen others as fill-ins an they have failed miserably ( honourable mention to Cordy).

Who should be the ruckman you ask? Anyone who can subtly jump into the opponent’s body to put them off, like Ryder did on Sunday. They don’t have to win the contest, just stop the opponent from dominating.

Then we’re a winning team.

I really don't get where the enthusiasm for English as a key forward is coming from. I just don't see many attributes that scream champion forward. Sure he seems like he may be able to play their competently, potentially have the odd good game, but to me he is a ruckman that can go forward, not the other way around. Whether he will become the ruckman we all hope he can be remains to be seen.

As for him being a key forward:
- Marking - he has decent hands but I don't recall too many contested marks where a big man is putting spoiling pressure on him. He tends to be ok when he can run and jump at the ball but those opportunities are somewhat rare inside 50. Maybe he can do it but I haven't seen it and have my doubts.

- Kicking - fine, no glaring issue there.

- Speed and agility - does he have decent speed and agility for his size and for a ruckman - yes. How about when compared to the best key forwards? Not in my view. As a key forward he appears a bit slow and cumbersome for mine when the ball hits the ground.

- Player comparison - what successful tall (200cm or thereabouts and up) forwards is he comparable to? Not as quick or agile as the King brothers or Daniher or probably even Ben Brown. I'm thinking somewhat similar to Mason Cox - quicker and more agile but obviously not as tall. Of course I could be wrong but Cox is about the level I can imagine English reaching as a key forward and he is no champion.

I am frustrated by an apparent lack of progress in Tim's ruck craft like most of us. It feels like he is big enough now to stop being pushed around and his height and leap should't see him losing as many taps. I wonder if he needs a different specialist coach (I assume he has been working with King?). Ruck work really should be something that can be coached and learned, I don't think it all just comes down to natural ability.

If Tim was performing better in the ruck would we even be talking about this?

[GVGjr]

Agreed and this is why I was shocked we effectively let Campbell and Roughead walk. I think Tim can be a good ruckman but he is 3-5 years away from that at least and should be played forward and used in the ruck sparingly.

It's interesting that with Roughead moving to the back line Macca was heavily criticized by moving him back. Bevo only used him there for a couple of game and now Buckley has turned him into a solid defender again.

Having players like Trengove and Roughead on the list would be as good thing for a young ruck man like English and Sweet plaus the provide the coach with some options

[Axe Man]

They can't be our only changes.

You haven't been following our match committee over the past few years? ;)

[bornadog]

I am frustrated by an apparent lack of progress in Tim's ruck craft like most of us.

I don't think King has the time. I would really like a specialist ruckman down there to help Tim out - a part time guy just working with Tim. Minson is at North but would be ideal, but not sure about his relationship with Bevo. (Guessing only)

I agree Axe Man Tim is not a forward.

I think the best we can do is Trengove to do most of the ruck work (say 60 to 70%) and Tim to learn his trade. If Tim is playing well, then he increases his time in the ruck.

The last three games we have given no chance to our mids.

[The Pie Man]

I really don't get where the enthusiasm for English as a key forward is coming from. I just don't see many attributes that scream champion forward. Sure he seems like he may be able to play their competently, potentially have the odd good game, but to me he is a ruckman that can go forward, not the other way around. Whether he will become the ruckman we all hope he can be remains to be seen.

As for him being a key forward:
- Marking - he has decent hands but I don't recall too many contested marks where a big man is putting spoiling pressure on him. He tends to be ok when he can run and jump at the ball but those opportunities are somewhat rare inside 50. Maybe he can do it but I haven't seen it and have my doubts.

- Kicking - fine, no glaring issue there.

- Speed and agility - does he have decent speed and agility for his size and for a ruckman - yes. How about when compared to the best key forwards? Not in my view. As a key forward he appears a bit slow and cumbersome for mine when the ball hits the ground.

- Player comparison - what successful tall (200cm or thereabouts and up) forwards is he comparable to? Not as quick or agile as the King brothers or Daniher or probably even Ben Brown. I'm thinking somewhat similar to Mason Cox - quicker and more agile but obviously not as tall. Of course I could be wrong but Cox is about the level I can imagine English reaching as a key forward and he is no champion.

I am frustrated by an apparent lack of progress in Tim's ruck craft like most of us. It feels like he is big enough now to stop being pushed around and his height and leap should't see him losing as many taps. I wonder if he needs a different specialist coach (I assume he has been working with King?). Ruck work really should be something that can be coached and learned, I don't think it all just comes down to natural ability.

If Tim was performing better in the ruck would we even be talking about this?

Nup.

But he isn't, so we are. Based on a small sample size, he's at least had an impact forward when played there.

[Happy Days]

Gross.

What's grimmer; the ins themselves or that it would represent a clear improvement to the side?

[Danjul]

I really don't get where the enthusiasm for English as a key forward is coming from. I just don't see many attributes that scream champion forward. Sure he seems like he may be able to play their competently, potentially have the odd good game, but to me he is a ruckman that can go forward, not the other way around. Whether he will become the ruckman we all hope he can be remains to be seen.

.....

I am frustrated by an apparent lack of progress in Tim's ruck craft like most of us. It feels like he is big enough now to stop being pushed around and his height and leap should't see him losing as many taps. I wonder if he needs a different specialist coach (I assume he has been working with King?). Ruck work really should be something that can be coached and learned, I don't think it all just comes down to natural ability.

If Tim was performing better in the ruck would we even be talking about this?

English is tall - but he doesn’t have the build of a ruckman. His upper body is 10 kg too light. He should never have been given 3 years of being beaten up in the ruck. Wouldn’t be suitable in the role until 2023 at the earliest. And I suspect that we will still be talking about it then.

I have never seen a non-ruckman coached into a ruckman. They are born that way and that’s why they are rare. That’s why they stand out early. That’s why you can count the best ruckmen on one hand. If all talls could learn to be a ruckman they would be ‘a dime a dozen‘ and not worth their weight in gold.

[comrade]

What's grimmer; the ins themselves or that it would represent a clear improvement to the side?

I honestly don't know.

[jeemak]

I really don't get where the enthusiasm for English as a key forward is coming from. I just don't see many attributes that scream champion forward. Sure he seems like he may be able to play their competently, potentially have the odd good game, but to me he is a ruckman that can go forward, not the other way around. Whether he will become the ruckman we all hope he can be remains to be seen.

As for him being a key forward:
- Marking - he has decent hands but I don't recall too many contested marks where a big man is putting spoiling pressure on him. He tends to be ok when he can run and jump at the ball but those opportunities are somewhat rare inside 50. Maybe he can do it but I haven't seen it and have my doubts.

- Kicking - fine, no glaring issue there.

- Speed and agility - does he have decent speed and agility for his size and for a ruckman - yes. How about when compared to the best key forwards? Not in my view. As a key forward he appears a bit slow and cumbersome for mine when the ball hits the ground.

- Player comparison - what successful tall (200cm or thereabouts and up) forwards is he comparable to? Not as quick or agile as the King brothers or Daniher or probably even Ben Brown. I'm thinking somewhat similar to Mason Cox - quicker and more agile but obviously not as tall. Of course I could be wrong but Cox is about the level I can imagine English reaching as a key forward and he is no champion.

I am frustrated by an apparent lack of progress in Tim's ruck craft like most of us. It feels like he is big enough now to stop being pushed around and his height and leap should't see him losing as many taps. I wonder if he needs a different specialist coach (I assume he has been working with King?). Ruck work really should be something that can be coached and learned, I don't think it all just comes down to natural ability.

If Tim was performing better in the ruck would we even be talking about this?

Good post. I think you're underselling his agility and pace of the mark, though by and large you're on the money.

There's not a lot of rucks who don't need a substantial amount of coaching to become what they are once they mature. Tim's no different and he will get better.

[Axe Man]

I have never seen a non-ruckman coached into a ruckman. They are born that way and that’s why they are rare. That’s why they stand out early. That’s why you can count the best ruckmen on one hand. If all talls could learn to be a ruckman they would be ‘a dime a dozen‘ and not worth their weight in gold.

Ruckmen are a dime a dozen. Sure not the top few in the league, Grundy, Gawn, Goldstien, etc. But competent ruckmen aren't difficult to find and they can't all have been born with this mythical ruck ability. Why even bother with ruck coaches if you can't possibly teach someone to ruck and they are "born that way"?

Pittonet from Carlton has received some praise for his game against Gawn on the weekend. He is a classic eker ruckman managing a handful of games for Hawthorn over many years before being traded to Carlton for a packet of chips. Surely he is not naturally blessed with some innate ruck ability? I reckon he's probably just a big bloke that has been toiling away for years and has potentially developed to a level where he can be competitive at AFL level.

At the moment all we need Tim to be is competitive, he doesn't have to be the second coming of Polly Farmer or Dean Cox.

[jeemak]

There's a good reason not many rucks are drafted as high/ higher as/ than Tim was. It's because they can take a lot of time to develop, and players who turn out to be competent ruckmen come from a range of backgrounds.

[Axe Man]

Dogs' midfield on notice as Bevo flags more changes (https://www.afl.com.au/news/453867/dogs-midfield-on-notice-as-bevo-flags-more-changes)

The Bulldogs look set to make more changes for Friday night's grudge match against GWS

TOBY McLean and Tom Liberatore are firmly in the mix to return as the Western Bulldogs prepare for Friday night's grudge match against Greater Western Sydney.

Coach Luke Beveridge made five changes for round two after the long layoff, but there could be more this week.

"He (Liberatore) had a really good session on Saturday and he's come through that with flying colours," Beveridge said.

"That was the last one he needed to tick off and so we'll definitely consider him for Friday night."

he Giants clash looms as a huge test for the winless Dogs after they were outmuscled in last year's elimination final by 58 points.

With Jeremy Cameron, Jeremy Finlayson, Toby Greene and Harry Himmelberg to battle in the air, Beveridge named Zaine Cordy as another potential inclusion.

Jackson Trengove could also be an option to play as a defender and provide a chop out for Tim English who was again beaten comfortably in the hitouts.

Beveridge highlighted a number of areas that needed addressing in the aftermath of the round two loss to St Kilda, most notably the midfield.

The Bulldogs have conceded the second-most points of any team this year and have scored just 83 points combined across the two games.

"There's some quite blatant things that we've identified that we can fix," Beveridge said.

"Some of those are just fundamental skill errors and decisions.

"Our midfield and our backline, our counterattack and our stuff out of stoppages hasn't been anywhere near as productive as what it was last year.

"You have to re-establish yourself all over again and that maturity as a football team isn't quite there yet."

Despite the huge drop in scoring from last year, Beveridge won't be shaking up the forward line.

Aaron Naughton will stay in his role as a key forward and it looks unlikely that Josh Schache will break back into the side after kicking 24 goals last year.

"He's a listed player who's still got a promising future but he's not in the team at the moment," Beveridge said of Schache.

The Bulldogs will be without defenders Easton Wood and Taylor Duryea again who are both a month off the pace with quad injuries.

The two trained away from the main group in parts on Wednesday, alongside Hayden Crozier and Buku Khamis who are managing their loads.

Meanwhile, Mission Foods Australia extended its partnership with the Bulldogs until the end of 2023.

[bornadog]

Press Conference here (https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/718274/luke-beveridge-we-believe-we-can-compete-with-the-best?videoId=718274&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1592361439001)

[The Adelaide Connection]

https://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/718274/luke-beveridge-we-believe-we-can-compete-with-the-best?videoId=718274&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1592361439001&fbclid=IwAR2gRKZdnr5K6ArHSsJPEfiseArdPXymurksr0f0BMLTbjYIjsl eRHJt9qc

Just listening to the Bevo presser:

He was particularly cagey at any selection questions. In fact, he was pretty defensive and cut off the reporter at one point and said: "You gonna pick the team for me?"

It was said in a lighthearted way, but it definitely seemed to hit a nerve.

Another question:

"Where's Josh Schache at?"

"Ahhh...he's a listed player with a promising future, but he is not in the team at the moment."

Honestly, did Bevo think there weren't going to be selection questions? It would be a serious worry if he didn't. Maybe someone needs to flick him a link to this thread.

13 Minute mark:
"Are you tempted to put him Naughton back?"

"Nah, not really...the makeup of the forward line looks right..."

14:50 onwards:
"Tim English...Do you bring someone in to support him?"

"Smidgen off having a good game, dropped some marks etc... will make a call around Sweet and Trengove this afternoon..."

[Jeanette54]

Just an idea from left field.

Lachie Hunter is a club suspension, not AFL ?

Given we were crying out for someone like him on Sunday, could the club offer him "early release" ?

Sure the suspension was punishing the player, but do the fans, members and club have to suffer the punishment with him ?

[comrade]

The makeup of the forward line looks right? Ok, Bevo.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Tim DID play ruck as a junior. It's not like we just turned him into one. He's completely lacking in confidence at the moment. He's been beaten up too many times and his poor performances are snowballing and it's having a compunding affect on his confidence. Normally i would say he needs a spell in the two's to regain some form and thus some confidence. Unfortuantely we don't have that luxury at the moment. I think playing him forward, then rucking him in tandem with Trengove would help. Give him some time as the second ruck when the opposing ruckman is a little tired. Who knows. Can't go any worse can it?

My changes:

IN: Trengove, Cordy, Weightman, Libba
OUT: Gowers, Gardner, Dale, Lloyd

Trengove rucks, English goes forward, Weightman comes in for Dale and Libba comes in at the expense of Lloyd.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Just an idea from left field.

Lachie Hunter is a club suspension, not AFL ?

Given we were crying out for someone like him on Sunday, could the club offer him "early release" ?

Sure the suspension was punishing the player, but do the fans, members and club have to suffer the punishment with him ?

It would not be a good look and would not be worth the absolute trashing of our clubs brand that would come with it. Sponsors would drop off for something like that.

Also, can you imagine Damien Barrett? He'd almost start a new podcast dedicated to it.

[bornadog]

Just an idea from left field.

Lachie Hunter is a club suspension, not AFL ?

Given we were crying out for someone like him on Sunday, could the club offer him "early release" ?

Sure the suspension was punishing the player, but do the fans, members and club have to suffer the punishment with him ?

I thought of the same thing. Stuff it, we need to win games and one of our best players is out.

[jeemak]

Just an idea from left field.

Lachie Hunter is a club suspension, not AFL ?

Given we were crying out for someone like him on Sunday, could the club offer him "early release" ?

Sure the suspension was punishing the player, but do the fans, members and club have to suffer the punishment with him ?

I'm not sure that's what we'd want to be doing...…..because next time if it wasn't Hunter and it was someone else in the side then there'd be an unacceptable level of rules for some and rules for others and it would ruin the playing group culture.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It's interesting re Schache....why did we bother recruiting him if we don't rate him? Same goes for Trengove. We've spoken about it in other threads but this points to poor recruiting. These are two guys we went out of our way to bring to the kennel

[bornadog]

It's interesting re Schache....why did we bother recruiting him if we don't rate him? Same goes for Trengove. We've spoken about it in other threads but this points to poor recruiting. These are two guys we went out of our way to bring to the kennel

Reading between the lines, there are obviously some issues with Schache and at a guess his fitness following ISO.

Hopefully Trengove comes in this week.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Reading between the lines, there are obviously some issues with Schache and at a guess his fitness following ISO.

Hopefully Trengove comes in this week.

It's a shame because he could be so useful for us.

[Danjul]

Ruckmen are a dime a dozen. Sure not the top few in the league, Grundy, Gawn, Goldstien, etc. But competent ruckmen aren't difficult to find and they can't all have been born with this mythical ruck ability. Why even bother with ruck coaches if you can't possibly teach someone to ruck and they are "born that way"?

Pittonet from Carlton has received some praise for his game against Gawn on the weekend. He is a classic eker ruckman managing a handful of games for Hawthorn over many years before being traded to Carlton for a packet of chips. Surely he is not naturally blessed with some innate ruck ability? I reckon he's probably just a big bloke that has been toiling away for years and has potentially developed to a level where he can be competitive at AFL level.

At the moment all we need Tim to be is competitive, he doesn't have to be the second coming of Polly Farmer or Dean Cox.
According to the AFL website Gawn was best on ground by a country mile.

Gawn 123 points vs 74 for Pittonet.
For comparison: English 55.

On these figures if English improves 50% he will be worth a packet of chips.

[Axe Man]

According to the AFL website Gawn was best on ground by a country mile.

Gawn 123 points vs 74 for Pittonet.
For comparison: English 55.

On these figures if English improves 50% he will be worth a packet of chips.

Are you seriously basing an argument on fantasy points? You must also know that champion data had it as 184 v 134? That's an impressive score for an unknown ruckman, but really these scores have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyway I'm only going from what I read, I didn't watch it - fact is he received some praise and had 10 hitouts to advantage. No doubt Gawn won the duel.

But really all that is beside the point I was making.:confused:

[bornadog]

Are you seriously basing an argument on fantasy points? You must also know that champion data had it as 184 v 134? That's an impressive score for an unknown ruckman, but really these scores have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyway I'm only going from what I read, I didn't watch it - fact is he received some praise and had 10 hitouts to advantage. No doubt Gawn won the duel.

But really all that is beside the point I was making.:confused:

and Melbourne won by 1 point, so really worked well.

[Danjul]

Are you seriously basing an argument on fantasy points? You must also know that champion data had it as 184 v 134? That's an impressive score for an unknown ruckman, but really these scores have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyway I'm only going from what I read, I didn't watch it - fact is he received some praise and had 10 hitouts to advantage. No doubt Gawn won the duel.

But really all that is beside the point I was making.:confused:

I don’t usually watch much football other than Dog’s games, that’s why I look at stats for other teams. My understanding of the fantasy points is they are awarded for specific things so I assume they are more accurate than a commentator’s recollection (although not totally dismissing what they say).

when I looked at a set of statistics covering about 50 games (a year or two ago) there was a pattern, the team with a dominant ruckman usually won.

That seems to still apply.

Carlton could not hold Gawn, they lost. Not by much. But the victor gets the spoils.

[G-Mo77]

It's interesting re Schache....why did we bother recruiting him if we don't rate him? Same goes for Trengove. We've spoken about it in other threads but this points to poor recruiting. These are two guys we went out of our way to bring to the kennel

We went out of our way to get Trengove and have hardly used him since.

Shache on the other hand was an after thought and an attempt to save face after we didn't get what we wanted for Stringer.

[bornadog]

We went out of our way to get Trengove and have hardly used him since.

I wouldn't say hardly. He played 16 games in 2018, and 16 in 2019. I don't remember if he missed any through injury.

Edit: Missed 7 games in 2018 due to a shoulder injury.

[Rocket Science]

I wouldn't say hardly. He played 16 games in 2018, and 16 in 2019. I don't remember if he missed any through injury.

Edit: Missed 7 games in 2018 due to a shoulder injury.

Good thing we've evolved the list to the point we've got no use for a genuine key back with strong character and leadership skills who can also spell our callow young first ruck should we so desire it.

[bornadog]

Good thing we've evolved the list to the point we've got no use for a genuine key back with strong character and leadership skills who can also spell our callow young first ruck should we so desire it.

He will be back

[kruder]

It nice to see some of the media actually ask questions re selection. Normally the questions are fluff, Bevo needs to be questioned around this there is no doubt about it.

He shot himself in the foot, with no reserves its the last thing you want to do is ring the changes, continuity is key atm its not the year to go discovering your best 22 if you want to play finals.

Its also not the year to loose games early because of the floating fixture the prime-time games we have been allotted, will disappear very quickly indeed, get ready for 1pm Sunday if we cant get any traction soon.

[Rocket Science]

It nice to see some of the media actually ask questions re selection. Normally the questions are fluff, Bevo needs to be questioned around this there is no doubt about it.

He shot himself in the foot, with no reserves its the last thing you want to do is ring the changes, continuity is key atm its not the year to go discovering your best 22 if you want to play finals.

This was half the folly of our round two selection masterstrokes.

Now - assuming the match committee responds with the axe - we're tossing another handful of underdone players into the fire against a flag favourite who'll be fired up after a loss, let alone to bully us again.

Either that or for the sake of continuity stick largely with the mob who shart the bed against the Saints.

Some pretty appetising choices there.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

It's interesting re Schache....why did we bother recruiting him if we don't rate him? Same goes for Trengove. We've spoken about it in other threads but this points to poor recruiting. These are two guys we went out of our way to bring to the kennel

Both Trengrove and Schache should be playing. We may well have over rated Keath and Bruce

[G-Mo77]

Good thing we've evolved the list to the point we've got no use for a genuine key back with strong character and leadership skills who can also spell our callow young first ruck should we so desire it.

Helping out with ruck duties alone should be enough the rest of that is just icing on the cake. Why we continue to feed English to hungry wolves game after game is stupidity! He needs help for ^#&@ sake!

[azabob]

Both Trengrove and Schache should be playing. We may well have over rated Keath and Bruce

Extremely way early to tell on Keith and Bruce.

But Bruce is extremely a hot or cold player.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Bruce has had very limited chances to prove his worth

[bornadog]

Extremely way early to tell on Keith and Bruce.

But Bruce is extremely a hot or cold player.

Does anyone think Bruce has stacked on the weight which has slowed him down?

[jeemak]

I get we didn't pick the right side, but basically everyone was underdone by varying degrees and will probably be for a few weeks. Additionally, there's also going to be some teams falling off a cliff mid season like there always is after a preseason where they've gone overboard to try and get early wins.

We have a five day break, I'd much rather work our players who didn't front up ready to go into the season with continuity rather than put them in and take them out after limited minutes.

It's grim, I get it, but information asymmetry is actually a thing and some of the commentary is getting too negative and tiresome too early for mine.

If you knew me in person you'd know that if I ate breakfast it would probably consist of cynicism on toast. But in these situations things are rarely as bad as they seem nor are they as good as they seem. The AFL media and us as supporters have been craving meaningful footy content, for the better part of three months just like we do at the start of every season and now we have some of that we're all going ape shit.

Just let it play out without the hyperbole and don't buy into the circus. Sure it's a short season but it isn't that bloody short, and while starting well is important finishing well will be more so.

[Happy Days]

Does anyone think Bruce has stacked on the weight which has slowed him down?

Definitely. He looks noticeably bigger and he's moving like it too.

His apparent passionate hate for Ryan Gardner notwithstanding, Keath has been pretty good and I don't get the angst.

[kruder]

Lucky dip coming up.

My feeling from the presser is Libba and Cordy in. Out? Um who knows

[kruder]

Timmy dropped? That was my old man's opinion, thought he had heard something :D

[Rocket Science]

Don't think I've been this invested in selection night since the granny.

This can't be healthy.

[Throughandthrough]

My mail is that Toby Greene will miss

[Axe Man]

Lucky dip coming up.

My feeling from the presser is Libba and Cordy in. Out? Um who knows

Last week Bevo made us believe Libba would play against the Saints from his comments so who knows?


Timmy dropped? That was my old man's opinion, thought he had heard something :D

That would be a surprise, I didn't detect anything in his comments to suggest that but he never gives much away.

[Jeanette54]

I don't think I have ever been dreading the team announcement more than I am this week.

[G-Mo77]

Gardner and Gowers omitted!!

[whythelongface]

Still no Trengove.

Good to see Libba and Toby back.

[Happy Days]

Gardner, Gowers and Lipinski out

McLean, Cordy and Libba in.

Two outta three ain't bad I guess.

[NoseBleed]

Confirm Greene out injured.

[G-Mo77]

Gardner, Gowers and Lipinski out

McLean, Cordy and Libba in.

Two outta three ain't bad I guess.

Don't be sad....

[Remi Moses]

Is lipinski injured ?
Thought he was reasonably good last week
Happy with the changes bar that one

[bornadog]

Don't be sad....

not sure why Lippa out

Dale lucky

[josie]

Dale and Lloyd very lucky methinks.

[G-Mo77]

Is lipinski injured ?
Thought he was reasonably good last week
Happy with the changes bar that one

Same. Same help for English would have also been a preffered option.

[Grantysghost]

Confirm Greene out injured.
We can take all the local opthamologists off high alert.

[Throughandthrough]

My mail is that Toby Greene will miss


I have an awesome postman. Doesn’t visit often but is always reliable haha

[bulldogsthru&thru]

We’re all happy Gardner and Gowers are out but it’s still deflating that we all knew they were poor inclusions prior to last week. Why didn’t the MC?

[Remi Moses]

Clearly they’ve selected training form and how players presented after the covid lockdown
Backfired , to put it mildly

[EasternWest]

Is lipinski injured ?
Thought he was reasonably good last week
Happy with the changes bar that one

Yeah, Lipinski WTF.

[Rocket Science]

Greene out is something of an anti-climax but certainly doesn't hurt our chances.

I'd be interested in the rationale for Lipinski being axed aside from wanting more spit and less polish in the midfield mix.

Fair sized microscope on Dale and Lloyd this week you'd think.

Williams and Vandermeer get another opportunity, good.

But most pleasing of all Libba runs out in the colours again. Feels good man.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Well, it's certainly more sensible.

I'd rather any of Lippa or Trengove over one of Lloyd/Dale. If Dale/Lloyd are down we're a man short because they can't play anywhere else. Lippa/JT give us more flexibility.

Gowers/Gardiner simply had to go

[kruder]

I would love to replace Daniel with La Young.

[The Pie Man]

Yeah, Lipinski WTF.

Had 22 disposals last week, but in my view he lacks intensity.

Disappointed not to see another ruck option + forward setup largely the same, but reasonably happy otherwise.

[Rocket Science]

Had 22 disposals last week, but in my view he lacks intensity.

He wasn't exactly alone last Sunday but perhaps that's the difference between Jong surviving the cut and Lipinski not.

[comrade]

About what I expected. Cordy is barely an improvement on Gardner but good to see Libba back in the side.

If our structure stays the same as last week and it looks like it will, we’ll get belted.

GWS by 6 goals+

[AndrewP6]

If I were JT I'd be looking elsewhere, clearly not gonna get a look-in at the Dogs. Happy to see Libba back.

[1eyedog]

If I were JT I'd be looking elsewhere, clearly not gonna get a look-in at the Dogs. Happy to see Libba back.

Same. Is there a mid year draft this year?

[The bulldog tragician]

Our Toby in, their Toby out. Good.

I actually saw a few things in Lippa’s game I wasn’t thrilled with. But you’d say compared to Lloyd and Dale who were diabolical, he was unlucky.

The team looks better. I don’t have the sense of horror I had last week. Sounds like faint praise I know.

[Eastdog]

Surprised as well with Lipinski out but happy to see Libba back and Gardner and Gowers go out to make way for Mclean and Cordy. Hopefully McLean can recapture some form. We need to utilise players strengths. Some experiments work like Naughton from defence to forward but other don’t work like play JJ and Wood in front of the ball - clearly they are better suited behind it.

[bornadog]

Our Toby in, their Toby out. Good.

I actually saw a few things in Lippa’s game I wasn’t thrilled with. But you’d say compared to Lloyd and Dale who were diabolical, he was unlucky.

The team looks better. I don’t have the sense of horror I had last week. Sounds like faint praise I know.

Maybe he didn't follow coaching instructions. Bevo did say we needed to tweak things around stoppages, perhaps Lippa was the culprit.

[Sedat]

Same. Same help for English would have also been a preffered option.
He has Bont, Dunks and Jong - that's plenty of ruck depth

[azabob]

He has Bont, Dunks and Jong - that's plenty of ruck depth

Don’t forget possible the worst of the lot - Josh Bruce

[The Underdog]

He has Bont, Dunks and Jong - that's plenty of ruck depth

To be fair, the Giants have Jacobs and not much else, so this isn’t the worst week to go in with a dodgy 2nd ruck option. Reckon Sweet will get a shot soon though.

[FrediKanoute]

Surprised as well with Lipinski out but happy to see Libba back and Gardner and Gowers go out to make way for Mclean and Cordy. Hopefully McLean can recapture some form. We need to utilise players strengths. Some experiments work like Naughton from defence to forward but other don’t work like play JJ and Wood in front of the ball - clearly they are better suited behind it.

Yes and no. I thought he was good early, but he and Libba are the same player really. I think we have left ourselves a little hanstrung - English fails what then? NAughts has to go back to stem the flow - what then? Dropping Lloyd or Dale for Sweet/Trengove/Schache would have just given us a bit more flex. Like a few others on here I think we need to bring our A++ game or we are going to get belted......

[Sedat]

To be fair, the Giants have Jacobs and not much else, so this isn’t the worst week to go in with a dodgy 2nd ruck option. Reckon Sweet will get a shot soon though.
English has struggled with good combinations (like Marshall/Ryder last week) but he has also really struggled 1-on-1 against naturally adept stoppage ruckmen (Goldy, Witts, Grundy, Gawn) - Jacobs falls into the latter category.

It will be a huge challenge for Tim this week.

[Hotdog60]

I would have had Lippa in Dale out.

[Eastdog]

Yes and no. I thought he was good early, but he and Libba are the same player really. I think we have left ourselves a little hanstrung - English fails what then? NAughts has to go back to stem the flow - what then? Dropping Lloyd or Dale for Sweet/Trengove/Schache would have just given us a bit more flex. Like a few others on here I think we need to bring our A++ game or we are going to get belted......

Yes for sure. We need to bring back our forward pressure that we started to hone late last year and that requires our mids hitting up the targets and our defenders working hard as they didn't last Sunday.

[jeemak]

I think Lippa is a bit similar with our other prolific ball winning mids, and having all of them in the side and trying to win the ball as a first priority and not being opposition focused is great if they're all on song and the opposition's midfield isn't that flash. But if they're not on song and the opposition has a good midfield it becomes really difficult down the ground when we don't have it and getting it up the ground when we do.

Libba and Toby coming in will hopefully change the dynamic a bit and give us a bit more balance between see ball get ball type of play, and actually thinking about the possibility of not getting the ball.

I really hope Libba gets through the game and gets some continuity, he's looking really fit.

Beveridge is on record as thinking the issues with the team aren't really related to the functionionging of the forward line, I'd argue he's mostly correct but should put more consideration into who can actually stifle opposition transition if the forward function falls over a little. Not sure having both Dale and Lloyd in the team does this enough, however, forward line function is largely dependent on how good the entries are and this is heavily dependent on the guys in the middle and defence. So overall I'm not too phased by these guys being retained, though if we do provide enough opportunities and they don't deliver then one of them has to go. When things aren't going your way then you need to find different ways to contribute and it doesn't seem these guys have, so if there's not excused they need to perform.

Given Keath hasn't played much with Cordy, Wood being out and English needing help, Trengove should have been included. We really miss Wood and a guy who finished seventh (fourteen votes out of fourth) in the Charles Sutton Medal last year, though is in my view unfairly maligned by some, would be a handy inclusion to a defence that is finding its feet.

[Mofra]

English has struggled with good combinations (like Marshall/Ryder last week) but he has also really struggled 1-on-1 against naturally adept stoppage ruckmen (Goldy, Witts, Grundy, Gawn) - Jacobs falls into the latter category.

It will be a huge challenge for Tim this week.
English should get him around the ground. The lack of support for Tim is still a worry.

[Rocket Science]

He has Bont, Dunks and Jong - that's plenty of ruck depth

Don't forget Zaine. We're truly spoiled for relief ruck riches.

Odds on we'll see Daniel line up for a tap before Trengove's sighted again.

[1eyedog]

About what I expected. Cordy is barely an improvement on Gardner but good to see Libba back in the side.

If our structure stays the same as last week and it looks like it will, we’ll get belted.

GWS by 6 goals+

At least Zaine understands what the hell we're trying to do down there unlike both Gardner and Keath. He's been a fixture in our back line since 2016 and worked alongside Moz and Keith. He's a massive upgrade on Gardner even if he is undersized.

[bornadog]

I would have had Lippa in Dale out.

Dale hasn't kicked a goal in his last three matches

[Axe Man]

Dale hasn't kicked a goal in his last three matches

He's hardly Robinson Crusoe there.

I think the form of players like Dale and Lloyd is more a symptom than a cause of our woes. Of course defensive pressure is non-negotiable though - regardless of how the ball in coming in a forward can control their effort. If this part of their game isn't meeting expectations then by all means replace them with someone who will provide what's needed.

[EasternWest]

Don't forget Zaine. We're truly spoiled for relief ruck riches.

Odds on we'll see Daniel line up for a tap before Trengove's sighted again.

Bring back Cooney.

[Axe Man]

Beveridge is on record as thinking the issues with the team aren't really related to the functionionging of the forward line, I'd argue he's mostly correct but should put more consideration into who can actually stifle opposition transition if the forward function falls over a little.

Congratulations you win word of the week! I feel it really does encapsulate the current state of our gameplan.

[bornadog]

He's hardly Robinson Crusoe there.

I think the form of players like Dale and Lloyd is more a symptom than a cause of our woes. Of course defensive pressure is non-negotiable though - regardless of how the ball in coming in a forward can control their effort. If this part of their game isn't meeting expectations then by all means replace them with someone who will provide what's needed.

Dale: Two tackles in three games

I agree delivery into the forward line has been woeful and given no chance to the forwards

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Even still both Dale and Lloyd have been putrid.

I'd drop both of them with no hesitation if there's not a significant spike in their performance tonight. It's nice that we are playing 'genuine forwards' but if they're not contributing either offensively or defensively, then out you go. They're both still lucky to be playing.

[comrade]

At least Zaine understands what the hell we're trying to do down there unlike both Gardner and Keath. He's been a fixture in our back line since 2016 and worked alongside Moz and Keith. He's a massive upgrade on Gardner even if he is undersized.

Cordy has one of the worst defensive one-on-one records in the league over the past few years.

[Happy Days]

I can't find who said it to reply to but I don't think our midfield has been the worst of our problems. They're having down games in terms of skill execution and overall impact but I don't think it can't be said they aren't trying.

To support this contention I checked out the stats and saw that all of our lead horses (Smith, Dunkley, Macrae and Bont) are inside the AFL's top 25 for pressure acts. When you add in that they're basically having to shark the opposition ruckman full time then I think they deserve a little bit more slack (also need to consider that they're likely our 4 best players or close to).

I'm way more worried about our lack of forward pressure putting too much heat on both these guys and the backline to defend undefendable situations. Looking at this same stat Lloyd has been far and away our best forward line performer (I've got work to do and can't rationalise going back more than 5 pages), with results comparable to the league's best pressure small forwards; hes ahead of Lachlan Murphy and only a few behind Castagna, for example. I think he should be continually selected until that changes, especially given his proven capacity as a goalkicker. Again, his performance hasn't been overwhelming but I don't think it can be denied the effort is there.

If we can get similar effort from guys like Dale (lol), McLean and eventually Weightman and Cavarra it'll go a long way to solving our issues.

[The Pie Man]

Cordy has one of the worst defensive one-on-one records in the league over the past few years.

And Trengove one of the best

I could live with Cordy as defensive third banana next to Trengove & Keath, but Trengove's continued absence is really starting to grate.

[Mofra]

I'm way more worried about our lack of forward pressure putting too much heat on both these guys and the backline to defend undefendable situations. Looking at this same stat Lloyd has been far and away our best forward line performer (I've got work to do and can't rationalise going back more than 5 pages), with results comprable to the league's best pressure small forwards; hes ahead of Lachlan Murphy and only a few behind Castagna, for example. I think he should be continually selected until that changes, especially given his proven capacity as a goalkicker. Again, his performance hasn't been overwhelming but I don't think it can be denied the effort is there.
That's surprising, but I guess it's hard to see everything on the TV. I've been impressed with Naughton's workrate in the forwardline so would be surprised if he was a long was back on the pressure act stats.

[bornadog]

To support this contention I checked out the stats and saw that all of our lead horses (Smith, Dunkley, Macrae and Bont) are inside the AFL's top 25 for pressure acts. When you add in that they're basically having to shark the opposition ruckman full time then I think they deserve a little bit more slack (also need to consider that they're likely our 4 best players or close to).

They also need to hit targets, especially inside 50. Maybe the targets aren't presenting well enough.

[Danjul]

I can't find who said it to reply to but I don't think our midfield has been the worst of our problems. They're having down games in terms of skill execution and overall impact but I don't think it can't be said they aren't trying.

To support this contention I checked out the stats and saw that all of our lead horses (Smith, Dunkley, Macrae and Bont) are inside the AFL's top 25 for pressure acts. When you add in that they're basically having to shark the opposition ruckman full time then I think they deserve a little bit more slack
....
I said this all of last year. They don’t set up for attacking football. Most of their clearances are from the opposing ruckman and this often means it is under pressure, a low quality clearance soon followed by a turnover. That’s one of the reasons the Dogs are having no impact on the scoreboard for long periods of time.

When English gets the hitout it’s not unusual to see the ball go away from our mids, they weren’t expecting it

We need a change of mindset.

Backline: genuine key position players (Trengove and Naughton).
Midfield: ruckman who takes the initiative away from opposition (Sweet or Trengove). With a capable 2nd ruck (English)
Forward line: Tall targets who can kick reliably (English at CHF).

Then the whole team will be under less pressure and hopefully display better skills. What we have seen so far is a complete shambles and it is unfair to try to pin it on individuals.