Is expectation our most feared opponent?

[Mitcha]

Going back through history it appears that our footy club has seemed to have performed best when seen as the underdog with a backs to the wall, us against the world type of mentality. Who can forget the magic of season 1997 after the abomination that was 1996 or the revival in 2015 after the mass off season departures at the end of 2014. Even 1990 under Terry Wheeler after we all thought the club had died in 1989. Our sweet premiership in 2016 was achieved when no one gave us any hope. However defending premierships and meeting expectations after them have been disappointing to say the least. Do we rely on flying under the radar to be successful and is the fear of expectation real?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Going back through history it appears that our footy club has seemed to have performed best when seen as the underdog with a backs to the wall, us against the world type of mentality. Who can forget the magic of season 1997 after the abomination that was 1996 or the revival in 2015 after the mass off season departures at the end of 2014. Even 1990 under Terry Wheeler after we all thought the club had died in 1989. Our sweet premiership in 2016 was achieved when no one gave us any hope. However defending premierships and meeting expectations after them have been disappointing to say the least. Do we rely on flying under the radar to be successful and is the fear of expectation real?

It’s a good question and something I’ve been thinking about lately. 2016 was the classic example as we had ZERO expectations in each and every game. And I’m sure most of us at the start of this season had an inkling of doubt due to the heavy expectations of top 4 placed on us.

What’s strange is that this has been a thing for decades. It doesn’t make any sense that it would flow through generations of players. Some will say it’s cultural. I’m not so sure. I suppose what’s most disappointing is we thought after 2016 we’d rid that persona of underdog. But here we are 4 years later still talking about it

[1eyedog]

We are perpetual blue collar underdogs and always have been. I remember listening to Terry Wallace at a members night in the late 90s talking about this very issue. He was saying that one of his biggest challenges was reversing the psychology at the club that near enough was good enough. He was sick of close finishes and us just falling short at the last hurdle. I remember thinking at the time that the club did not have that self entitled expectation that it would / could win any game and would / could win a flag at the start of every season like the power clubs do. We have been so economically limited through our history that all of our energy has been focused more on pure survival before success. Any success was a fortunate by-product of existing as a football club.

FWIW I think we need more of a killer instinct and would like us to start playing like GWS played against us in last year's finals. I want to play unsocial football, similar to the Hawthorn's of the past and similar to how we played with the likes of Garlick, Libba Snr, Southern etc. You can still play with a hard edge within the legal limits of the game.

We're more stable financially, have a flag under our belts and for the first time in a very long time are attracting very good players in their prime. My opinion is that our last three games have been lost between the ears and if we can recapture some self-belief and develop a harder edge to how we play we can match anyone.

[bornadog]

Great thread Mitcha and it seems so true. I remember back in 1985 not having any expectations and thinking at the start of the season, we will probably win most of our home games and that is about it. 1985 became for me, one of the most enjoyable seasons ever (2016 apart). We were an unbelievable unit and every game was so good.

2010, Smorgon came out and said we would win the premiership, and expectations were high and in the end we fell short in another prelim - so disappointing.

There is a bit of the negative culture embedded in our club, and it really comes out when we are losing and have our backs to the wall. You just have to look at the negativity in the posts and other social media when we are losing, with posts like - that is just a Bulldog thing, oh we have plenty of rucks in Jong, Dunkley etc, oh we chose the wrong team, oh put Caleb on Jeremy Cameron.

When losing, you need to look at why you are losing, what went wrong and analyse that. Terry Wallace did try and get rid of the loser mentality, and I thought 2016 would erase some of the things like sack the coach, oh there must be player decent, something is wrong down there, the coach has lost the players.

Anyway, I digress. I am hoping the back to the walls fight comes out tonight and not expecting a win, we actually defeat GWS.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Great thread Mitcha and some well reasoned responses above.


FWIW I think we need more of a killer instinct and would like us to start playing like GWS played against us in last year's finals. I want to play unsocial football, similar to the Hawthorn's of the past and similar to how we played with the likes of Garlick, Libba Snr, Southern etc. You can still play with a hard edge within the legal limits of the game.


Agree with this. Ironically, we actually had this in 2016 - it served the platform of which our Premiership was won off. Players like Morris, Boyd, Picken, Libba, Dahlhaus and Clay were fearless and never took a backward step. Even Cordy could be included in that group despite his age at the time. There's no doubt the former mentioned helped the likes of Bont, Macrae, Hunter, JJ etc.

Unfortunately it just evaporated after 2016 and we've since replaced these types of players with the likes of Gardner/Young, Williams, Lipinski, Hayes, Dale, Lloyd, Schache etc. Some of these kids have some natural talent but their mental fortitude and sheer refusal to lose is NOWHERE near the above list.

I'm a firm believer that we have too many nice guys on our list. Too many well spoken, passive footballers who really struggle to rise up when physically challenged as we've seen numerous times in the last 1-2 years.

Bailey Smith is a brilliant addition to our list - absolutely EVERYTHING we need. But we need more.

[Axe Man]

Great thread Mitcha and some well reasoned responses above.



Agree with this. Ironically, we actually had this in 2016 - it served the platform of which our Premiership was won off. Players like Morris, Boyd, Picken, Libba, Dahlhaus and Clay were fearless and never took a backward step. Even Cordy could be included in that group despite his age at the time. There's no doubt the former mentioned helped the likes of Bont, Macrae, Hunter, JJ etc.

Unfortunately it just evaporated after 2016 and we've since replaced these types of players with the likes of Gardner/Young, Williams, Lipinski, Hayes, Dale, Lloyd, Schache etc. Some of these kids have some natural talent but their mental fortitude and sheer refusal to lose is NOWHERE near the above list.

I'm a firm believer that we have too many nice guys on our list. Too many well spoken, passive footballers who really struggle to rise up when physically challenged as we've seen numerous times in the last 1-2 years.

Bailey Smith is a brilliant addition to our list - absolutely EVERYTHING we need. But we need more.

It's a good point.

I just saw a photo on Facebook (I won't post here as it's a bit offensive) of a coach holding a whiteboard at a local footy game. Written on the board in big black letters was "BE A C***" - seemingly a directive at one of the quarter breaks. If you have ever played footy you know you need players in your team like this. Not belting people but little things here and there that upset the opposition and make your teammates walk taller. You want to be difficult to play against and get under your opponents skin.

As big a dickhead as Mitch Robinson seems I think he has been great for that young Brisbane side.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

It’s interesting that through all the threads this week trying to identify the root cause of our current issues I think the last couple of posts are a HUGE part of the problem. We do have too many meek and mild players. We just aren’t an intimidating side to play against. Who really fears us? 2016 those players mentioned above willed us to each contest and allowed the cream to rise to the top. I suppose some of that is the foundation of contested footy BMac was building. But where is it now. Who on our list would you now look to to battle and grind at each contest and strike a bit of fear in the opposition?

[bornadog]

It's a good point.

I just saw a photo on Facebook (I won't post here as it's a bit offensive) of a coach holding a whiteboard at a local footy game. Written on the board in big black letters was "BE A C***" - seemingly a directive at one of the quarter breaks. If you have ever played footy you know you need players in your team like this. Not belting people but little things here and there that upset the opposition and make your teammates walk taller. You want to be difficult to play against and get under your opponents skin.

As big a dickhead as Mitch Robinson seems I think he has been great for that young Brisbane side.

The closest is Libba, Cordy and Bailey is getting there and Mitch Wallis won't take any shit either.

Other than that, no one else is flexing their muscles.

[The bulldog tragician]

Could also explain a long history of the Dogs causing ‘upsets’ but failing when we appeared certain contenders.

[Axe Man]

The closest is Libba, Cordy and Bailey is getting there and Mitch Wallis won't take any shit either.

Other than that, no one else is flexing their muscles.

I was happy for Wallis to give away that 50 last Sunday - you had a St Kilda player driving his elbow into our players head (can't remember who it was now) and Mitch dragged him off - nothing silly but not standing for that crap. Stupid umpire should have called it even and let the Saints player take his kick but instead paid 50.

[bornadog]

I was happy for Wallis to give away that 50 last Sunday - you had a St Kilda player driving his elbow into our players head (can't remember who it was now) and Mitch dragged him off - nothing silly but not standing for that crap. Stupid umpire should have called it even and let the Saints player take his kick but instead paid 50.

Naughton's head, the free should have been reversed.

[Grantysghost]

I was happy for Wallis to give away that 50 last Sunday - you had a St Kilda player driving his elbow into our players head (can't remember who it was now) and Mitch dragged him off - nothing silly but not standing for that crap. Stupid umpire should have called it even and let the Saints player take his kick but instead paid 50.


Me too I applauded it.
What happened to the rising Sir Bont taking on North that day (Firrito?) when they tried to provoke him a couple of seasons ago. i remember thinking at the time wow, not only is this guy good he rises higher when targeted. Maybe losing some of the aforementioned guys has meant he doesn't feel like he has the backing any more. Not sure.

Just an small anecdote re Michael Firrito. A group of friends and I after a long day at the cricket spotted him at a bar, not only did he chat to us and spend time in our group he bought us drinks. Loved him ever since!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Who on our list can fill the aggression void?

I think Bruce and Naughton can/should be able to and have shown signs in previous years. For whatever reason, neither have asserted themselves in R1 & R2.

B Smith is already doing it, Wallis does to a degree too. Libba back helps and though I'm critical of Cordy as a player, he doesn't step backwards.

I think we need some of our small/mid forwards to give us more and I want to see more from our mids. We really lack presence down back too (Duryea helps).

[1eyedog]

Who on our list can fill the aggression void?

I think Bruce and Naughton can/should be able to and have shown signs in previous years. For whatever reason, neither have asserted themselves in R1 & R2.

B Smith is already doing it, Wallis does to a degree too. Libba back helps and though I'm critical of Cordy as a player, he doesn't step backwards.

I think we need some of our small/mid forwards to give us more and I want to see more from our mids. We really lack presence down back too (Duryea helps).

I think CD can be a really good player and a pest at the same time, seems a bit meek though. We know Cordy dosn't take any jive, Smith or Libba either. Hunter's not bad at trash talk but that's about it. Applauded Wally for standing up for his team mate last week as well, only person I directed my fury at re. the 50 was the umpire. Who else? I'd like to see Richards be true to his red hair and fire up, again, appears he has an introverted on-field personality. Naughts should be throwing his weight around with Bruce having a directive to back him up.

Daniel is the one.

[The Pie Man]

How influential are older figures within footy clubs today?

GWS were reported to be the most mouthy upstarts who were losing 75% of their games early on, and I remember reading we copped it for being a … club etc. ...now that's straight from Sheedy I'm guessing. You can only imagine the hubris around Essendon in the 80-90s. They saw themselves as winners, and Sheedy was trying to instill that at the Giants.

Then there's Elliott and the 'tragic club' comment. Can only imagine how above almost everyone they used to feel.

Can't imagine we ever had that to draw on - spite / dislike, yep. We're the winners? ….



But does that still play much of a role? Footballers have an aura about them, whether they play for GCS or Collingwood. People with regular human frailties, and not supermen/women by any means, but they do carry themselves differently.

We didn't take a 'nothing to lose' mentality through 2016, it was 'why not us?' Perfect for the moment, but it's use by date was winter 2017.


Back in the old days, we did win a heap of home games taking opponents out of their comfort zone.....feels like we're too nice now.

Good topic to ponder.

[The bulldog tragician]

Me too I applauded it.
What happened to the rising Sir Bont taking on North that day (Firrito?) when they tried to provoke him a couple of seasons ago. i remember thinking at the time wow, not only is this guy good he rises higher when targeted. Maybe losing some of the aforementioned guys has meant he doesn't feel like he has the backing any more. Not sure.

Just an small anecdote re Michael Firrito. A group of friends and I after a long day at the cricket spotted him at a bar, not only did he chat to us and spend time in our group he bought us drinks. Loved him ever since!

No, I don’t believe it. Must have been a lookalike.

Bont in that match was a kid with the world before him. I remember his smirk when he smothered a kick by Ferret-oh (that’s how you spell it isn’t it��). He was young, carefree. Now Bont is the guy the footy world has turned against, aware that so much is riding on his shoulders, perhaps even doubting his own immense ability, trying that hit too hard as he did last week. It’s a pattern we’ve all seen before. I desperately hope tonight is the night he turns it around.

[WBFC4FFC]

I was happy for Wallis to give away that 50 last Sunday - you had a St Kilda player driving his elbow into our players head (can't remember who it was now) and Mitch dragged him off - nothing silly but not standing for that crap. Stupid umpire should have called it even and let the Saints player take his kick but instead paid 50.

Why have we not been using Wallis in the middle for the clearances? He use to do this as a teenager.

[FrediKanoute]

Why have we not been using Wallis in the middle for the clearances? He use to do this as a teenager.

His disposal. Good hands, but his kicking is poor and the problem with him starting in the middle is that if you don't win the ball you have to get it back and he will end up in that chain. For sheer hardness at the footy though I would have him in a heartbeat.

[Grantysghost]

His disposal. Good hands, but his kicking is poor and the problem with him starting in the middle is that if you don't win the ball you have to get it back and he will end up in that chain. For sheer hardness at the footy though I would have him in a heartbeat.

Is it just me or is he a little slow ball to foot. I have visions of him being tackled mid ball drop, I think that midfield intensity may cause him issues in this regard.

[Axe Man]

Is it just me or is he a little slow ball to foot. I have visions of him being tackled mid ball drop, I think that midfield intensity may cause him issues in this regard.

That's how he broke his leg from memory (as much as I try to forget that vision).

[GVGjr]

Going back through history it appears that our footy club has seemed to have performed best when seen as the underdog with a backs to the wall, us against the world type of mentality. Who can forget the magic of season 1997 after the abomination that was 1996 or the revival in 2015 after the mass off season departures at the end of 2014. Even 1990 under Terry Wheeler after we all thought the club had died in 1989. Our sweet premiership in 2016 was achieved when no one gave us any hope. However defending premierships and meeting expectations after them have been disappointing to say the least. Do we rely on flying under the radar to be successful and is the fear of expectation real?

Thanks Mitcha for the great thread

Wouldn't the drought between grand final performances suggest that the underdog status even the us vs them mentality we had was actually a negative for the club? Don't get me wrong I've loved a lot of what that that status stood for over the years.
We created upsets along the way and pushed back against the more successful clubs but after 3 preliminary finals under Eade and then 2 great years under Bevo culminating with our GF win the underdog status to me now is nothing more of a mindset that says I can accept getting close more than I'm hungry for more success. I want the latter

We played some great footy in 2015 and some exhilarating wins along the way and we had to endure a Finals game away from our beloved Docklands and a leaked game plan. With an ounce of luck who knows what 2015 could have been
To be honest I was very hopeful of a strong performance in 2016 but I guess because over the years I had conditioned myself to accept the idea that we would fall short of the mark when it really counted I rated us more of a top 4 side in 2016 than the GF winner.
All that changed after our comprehensive win against West Coast in the elimination final of 2016 and I haven't returned to wanting to accept the underdogs status ever again. I'm still dirty on the way we handled 2017 and 2018 seasons and we should have done a lot more to address the complacency that looks like it ran right through the club

Flying under the radar is just too easy. I'd really prefer our club to be regarded as ruthless in our ambition and not being prepared to accept close enough

[1eyedog]

Killer instinct check.

[Mitcha]

Bumping this one after a disgraceful and inept performance today following on from what should have been a wake up call last week. Beat either Essendon or Hawthorn and we sew up a top two spot but now most likely to lose the double chance, you can’t tell me it’s not in their heads. Gutted.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

This is how we Bulldog. We don't do things the archetypal way
Never have, seemingly never will.

I still believe we can course correct.

I'm more than willing to accept I am wrong. But I just don't see the point in believing otherwise right now.

[Mitcha]

Didn't really want to bump this again but after last night pitiful effort words fail me.

[The bulldog tragician]

It is worth reflecting on. Other clubs who have finally broken through seem to have been liberated. I always thought this would happen to us too, in fact I thought that if in one of our tilts at it e.g. 97-98, 08-10, had been successful they would have paved the way for us to build a new era without the poor old Bulldogs story in a loop over our heads.

You look at Geelong who keep presenting and presenting. They’ve been written off and ridiculed, had straight set finals defeats in consecutive years and were smashed badly in last years final. But they never go into their shells or seem to lose their self belief.

We seem more fragile. I don’t know how some of these things persist with new groups of players, new leaders, but it seems to be the case.

[GVGjr]

Didn't really want to bump this again but after last night pitiful effort words fail me.

Thanks for bumping it.

The questions about our ability to manage expectations remains valid and why we can't back up a good season with another is perplexing.


It is worth reflecting on. Other clubs who have finally broken through seem to have been liberated. I always thought this would happen to us too, in fact I thought that if in one of our tilts at it e.g. 97-98, 08-10, had been successful they would have paved the way for us to build a new era without the poor old Bulldogs story in a loop over our heads.

You look at Geelong who keep presenting and presenting. They’ve been written off and ridiculed, had straight set finals defeats in consecutive years and were smashed badly in last years final. But they never go into their shells or seem to lose their self belief.

We seem more fragile. I don’t know how some of these things persist with new groups of players, new leaders, but it seems to be the case.

I'm not sure that we are really fragile but perhaps we lack the hunger we had in 2016. How we can get it back is the one of the biggest challenges we face.

[Boots]

While I was coaching (again, a different sport, and only ever at amateur level so grain of salt) one thing I noticed is in all the sports psych development stuff I did was that athlete self-perception is a really delicate balance.

On the one hand, athletes need to believe they can do what they need to do to win. This is always based on faith, not evidence, because "the other guy" is such a wild unknown from match to match.

On the other, the athlete needs to hold on to a really humble sense of their own shortcomings as a motivation to improve.

I can't stress enough how hard this balance is to strike. If you pump them up too much they become delusional, and if you focus too much on shortcomings they lose confidence. Both hubris and low confidence spell doom on match day.

The best athletes I ever encountered used to use this interesting phrase: "I just want to do the best I can". Note it's not "I want to be the best" or "I want to win all the time". They saw "their best" as if it were the horizon - something that was always just out of reach but that was still worth pursuing. I think maybe the best of them know when to retire because they realise their best is no longer within reach.

I don't fully know how this relates to the underdog status, or killer instinct, or "being a C***", or Bevo's acknowledge soft-psychology coaching method. But I do feel like most of the time our blokes struggle to strike the balance between honest self-assessment and drive to improve.

The team that embodies this the best is Geelong (I hate them). Every time Tom Hawkins gets a goal he has this enormous childlike grin, like it's the first goal he's ever kicked. In the heat of the moment I always interpret it as smug arrogance, a grin that says 'that was easy, you're all witches hats'. What if I'm wrong though? What if he's genuinely surprised that he's reached the horizon again?

I hate those pricks, but they do seem to have drive and impetus to improve, on a minute-to-minute basis, in spades.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Nice post Boots

[hujsh]

Actually similar to a conversation Rocket had on the Danny Boyd podcast just recently. Talking about players like Dale who stick to their limits vs players like sucking who push their limitations (for mixed results) as well as how you communicate to players how they need to improve and how different players react to that.

Worth a listen.

[Mitcha]

Third time I've bumped this because it's Deja Vu all over again. I know it's only half time but this one looks well over. Yes I have trust issues.

[bulldogtragic]

Seems to be.

[bornadog]

Third time I've bumped this because it's Deja Vu all over again. I know it's only half time but this one looks well over. Yes I have trust issues.

Nothing has changed Mitcha

[GVGjr]

Third time I've bumped this because it's Deja Vu all over again. I know it's only half time but this one looks well over. Yes I have trust issues.

I know the game is a great leveler to stop clubs and their supporters getting ahead themselves but we've consistently dropped winnable games late in finals pushes and it's as frustrating as it can be.
Thanks for the bump, it's a good reminder.

[Eastdog]

The answer to the thread title is yes.

We seem to always do better when we are the underdogs. The 2016 final series is proof of this. We went into all those games as underdogs and it worked out so well in the end winning our 2nd premiership.

We simply need to handle the expectation better and not listen to the outside noise and just get it done against opponents who we should really be beating if we are serious.