We beat the Giants - Has anything "REALLY" changed?

[mjp]

Strong performance Friday night featuring some great focus/commitment to the ball. I was one of many who really appreciated the efforts (I'm sure) put forth by the players.

Glass half full:
- Liber is the difference maker.
- Great show of resilience by Bont.
- Naught's terrific in consistently attacking the ball.
- JJ showed a willingness to compete we haven't seen much of in the past couple of seasons.
- Alex Keath looked like he was both willing AND able to play as a one-vs-one defender.
- MC played players in more familiar positions and all is OK with the world.

Glass half empty:
- We barely troubled the scorers vs a Giants team missing Whitfield, Greene and Kelly.
- English was better but really played as a 7th defender not a ruckman - you might be able to do that against Jacobs but other teams have actual footballers playing in the ruck.
- Suckling continues to look terrible.
- Bruce continues to look terrible. As for the Brereton opinion that the presence of Bruce helps Naughton walk taller - please. The kid grew up in Rockingham and was raised to fight the fight.
- Dale and Lloyd completely ineffective - I guess you could argue Dale was better than Lloyd (at least) but...wow.
- Can ANYONE play as an outside mid and get the ball except for Hunter in our entire squad? Vandermeer is (admittedly) a baby (a baby with a nice sidestep to be fair) but he is miles off being a 25 possession per game player.
- What is going on with Toby? Is he the player he flashed in the first quarter or whoever than bloke was who played out the game with barely a touch?
- We needed the Giants and the history and the EJ milestone etc to get 'UP' for a contest...what happens vs the Swans and Roos over the next two weeks when there is no emotion in the build up.

So - where are you. Half full or half empty. Are we moving ahead or was it just an unconvincing flash in the pan from a consistent team.

[Vred]

Our small forwards all suck, apart from Dickson who lets face it, this is his final year with us. Llyod and Dale seem to apply little to zero pressure, their tackling is beyond terrible, and frankly both are shit at hitting the big sticks. I’d be looking at immediate replacements for both or dropping them down to the 2s for a very long period until they learn that they must apply pressure, and be able to finish.

English still needs backup. Id be pulling Suckling out for Trengove for the foreseeable future.

Our wing players have always been a problem with Hunter being our best, I know Jong and Hayse were being trained as wing players as well but who knows whats happened there.

Bruces kick from 50 the other night looked lazy and uninspired. I’m not sure whats going on with him.

I’m a glass half full kind of guy but we have heaps of improvements we could make with just shuffling around more pieces, more players coming in, more being dropped to the 2s, and this upcoming draft / trade period we need to focus on picking up another X factor small forward type. Fingers crossed Weightmen works out, but we need another. We’re not far off being top 8 good but until Bevo and Match Committee keeps proving they can put up a good team, I’m remaining skeptical.

[GVGjr]

I like to think I'm still in the half full group but there is still plenty to do with players that aren't performing and our match committee selections are still a bit of a puzzle

I get that we have to play Bruce but he's not covering the ground that well, his kicking depth is questionable and we haven't seen his marking strength yet. Just 4 marks in his 3 games so far. If we are playing those who are performing well on track we need to give him a reminder that he needs to improve quickly because he isn't performing well on the ground.

Suckling won me over in the last 2 years but his form so far this year isn't good and there is something wrong with his kicking and his agility

Dale and Lloyd must be on notice.

There is some work to do but we can do better if we get the selections right

[jeemak]

I think we're following the same trend most other teams are following. Players have returned in extremely patchy form, at different levels of fitness and are putting inconsistent effort and performances together.

Your half full and half empty categories are fair enough this week, but who knows what they will be next week? There's so much hand wringing going on two games into a restart of an already fragmented season. What I liked about Friday was players brought effort and intensity, and seemed to defend the ground well. All of our problems aside, all of the inconsistencies aside if we do that each week I'll be reasonably content as I think the rest will work itself out as the group gets continuity and the season progresses.

All we can do for now is hang on for dear life and just try and keep ahead of the ledger by a game or two until round ten.

[Sedat]

We are a work in progress with some critical areas that still need to be addressed and improved. However the structural changes, particularly defensively, were greatly appreciated after the farcical defensive structure and effort of the previous week.

Agree 100% that we don't have the forward mix right. However, I'd rather we button up our defensive line first (which we simply had to after last week) before getting to work on the front half.

[soupman]

Hmm I'm generally glass half full and certainly enjoyed Friday, but am sceptical on that being our new standard at all.

This feeds into your final statement.


- We needed the Giants and the history and the EJ milestone etc to get 'UP' for a contest...what happens vs the Swans and Roos over the next two weeks when there is no emotion in the build up.


Exactly. The worry was if we couldn't get up for this game then we had no hope. Luckily we did get them but after talking the talk and then getting bullied in the previous two games against non-Giant opponents I am sceptical as to whether this is a one off, although at least the monkey is off the back somewhat now.



- Liber is the difference maker.


Yes against a side that didn't move the ball quickly, didn't really embrace pace and was easily wound up by him. Not sure he can do that against most defences and can certainly see a lot of sides try to exploit him, but we certainly walked taller with him in the side and he was good when he was involved.



- Great show of resilience by Bont.
- Naught's terrific in consistently attacking the ball.
- JJ showed a willingness to compete we haven't seen much of in the past couple of seasons.
- Alex Keath looked like he was both willing AND able to play as a one-vs-one defender.


All these a valid and great, although I think the Bont and Keath ones both rely on our team committing to applying pressure and defending well like they did on Friday and most importantly helping eachother out. We've had too many games where players have been individually bullied without teammates helping them out to take the match where we clearly made that a key focus as the standard.



- MC played players in more familiar positions and all is OK with the world.

Glass half empty:
- We barely troubled the scorers vs a Giants team missing Whitfield, Greene and Kelly.
- Bruce continues to look terrible. As for the Brereton opinion that the presence of Bruce helps Naughton walk taller - please. The kid grew up in Rockingham and was raised to fight the fight.
- Dale and Lloyd completely ineffective - I guess you could argue Dale was better than Lloyd (at least) but...wow.

I think all these are linked. MC continue to pick too many pure forwards with not much other than a decent mark and kick. Bruce has been woeful in every aspect apart from being a wrecking ball in melees. Our forward setup is clearly not working. bevo made the comment that they are happy with the pieces but they haven't come together yet, i think the MC should be going in a different direction with the pieces.




- Can ANYONE play as an outside mid and get the ball except for Hunter in our entire squad? Vandermeer is (admittedly) a baby (a baby with a nice sidestep to be fair) but he is miles off being a 25 possession per game player.


Maybe two other candidates. Hayes is hard running enough and is probably our best approximation of Hunter in the squad. I don't think he is a very good player but I think he is serviceable and could be a stop gap. The alternative is Lipinski, who has demonstrated he is a pretty good link up option. He maybe hasn't played as a pure wing yet (more of a high half forward) but I think he is our best prospect, but seeing as he got dropped after what i thought was a solid game then I have no idea what the MC's thoughts are on him except he isn't doing what they want.


- English was better but really played as a 7th defender not a ruckman - you might be able to do that against Jacobs but other teams have actual footballers playing in the ruck.

I guess the fact that we are all pumped that he had a good game in the ruck when he really only got 12 hitouts is an interesting insight into how low the bar is for him in that area. He was good/excellent around the ground but we knew that already and he has shown that before. Tbf this was the first time I've seen him get genuine hitouts to advantage, so I guess that's encouraging, but he needs to show an ability to atleast negate the opposing ruckman in the ruck before he has taken the next step, and Jacobs is probably the easiest challenger in the comp for this.



So - where are you. Half full or half empty. Are we moving ahead or was it just an unconvincing flash in the pan from a consistent team.

I think we showed that we are good enough to bring the heat. If we kicked straight we probably kick a decent score as well but we all know that's completely irrelevant to the vision Beveridge has for us so won't be addressed. If we bring our team defence like we did Friday we probably are good enough to beat teams, but without that I don't think we can score enough with our current setup.

It was really nice to enjoy watching us again but I need us to bring the heat in a game not so perfectly setup to fire us up before I think we have taken that step forward.

[mjp]

(outside mids)
Maybe two other candidates. Hayes...Lipinski...



What about Smith (r version) who made a good fist of it pre season?



(English) I guess the fact that we are all pumped that he had a good game in the ruck...

See - I don’t think he really played as a ruckman. He played spare behind the ball but ‘take the hitouts’...I’m not even sure that is a position but it sure help block things up defensively.

[soupman]

What about Smith (r version) who made a good fist of it pre season?


Honestly forgot about him. Yeah he was decent there but obviously been injured the last two weeks. A bit like hayes serviceable but hardly inspiring, but in Hunters absence serviceable is probably needed.



See - I don’t think he really played as a ruckman. He played spare behind the ball but ‘take the hitouts’...I’m not even sure that is a position but it sure help block things up defensively.

Yeah that's fair. It's just encouraging seeing him not be a liability I guess, but the problem is hardly fixed long term, even if he performs as he did on Friday consistently.

[The bulldog tragician]

I knew I shouldn’t have clicked this thread - it makes too much sense.

I think this is going to be such a weird season and all teams will show a lot of variation - imagine Geelong being torched at their fortress. There is going to be a greater struggle with ‘motivation’ when there is always a sense we’re one COVID cluster from the season being shut down. It has to affect intensity. Player selections are going to be more than usually difficult with only training form to go by.

I find it hard to look too far ahead, but I was encouraged perhaps more than I should have been, by the spirit in the group and patches of footy where we moved the ball better than we’ve seen for a while. Some of the defensive efforts to deny goals against the Orange were really inspiring.

However the forward line doesn’t look right. Everyone is so slow. When the ball hits the deck, locking it in is all we can do ... there’s no one to pounce on it. The ineffectiveness of Lloyd and Dale costs us.We miss Hunter - so much maligned but a high possession getter and gut runner.

I really can’t say which camp I’m in but I will be pretty happy if we maintain that intensity in this strange year as it’s likely to be even more important.

[1eyedog]

Strong performance Friday night featuring some great focus/commitment to the ball. I was one of many who really appreciated the efforts (I'm sure) put forth by the players.

Glass half full:
- Liber is the difference maker.
- Great show of resilience by Bont.
- Naught's terrific in consistently attacking the ball.
- JJ showed a willingness to compete we haven't seen much of in the past couple of seasons.
- Alex Keath looked like he was both willing AND able to play as a one-vs-one defender.
- MC played players in more familiar positions and all is OK with the world.

Glass half empty:
- We barely troubled the scorers vs a Giants team missing Whitfield, Greene and Kelly.
- English was better but really played as a 7th defender not a ruckman - you might be able to do that against Jacobs but other teams have actual footballers playing in the ruck.
- Suckling continues to look terrible.
- Bruce continues to look terrible. As for the Brereton opinion that the presence of Bruce helps Naughton walk taller - please. The kid grew up in Rockingham and was raised to fight the fight.
- Dale and Lloyd completely ineffective - I guess you could argue Dale was better than Lloyd (at least) but...wow.
- Can ANYONE play as an outside mid and get the ball except for Hunter in our entire squad? Vandermeer is (admittedly) a baby (a baby with a nice sidestep to be fair) but he is miles off being a 25 possession per game player.
- What is going on with Toby? Is he the player he flashed in the first quarter or whoever than bloke was who played out the game with barely a touch?
- We needed the Giants and the history and the EJ milestone etc to get 'UP' for a contest...what happens vs the Swans and Roos over the next two weeks when there is no emotion in the build up.

So - where are you. Half full or half empty. Are we moving ahead or was it just an unconvincing flash in the pan from a consistent team.

But the game felt like a 10 goal win, we were all over them like a cheap suit. They could not move it out of our forward line for large parts of the game. Our pressure was excellent, they struggled all night with fluidity and played static footy for a good chunk of the night because of it.

They had great players out, but we also had Wood and Hunter out who are just as critical for us. Glass half full.

[bornadog]

But the game felt like a 10 goal win, we were all over them like a cheap suit. They could not move it out of our forward line for large parts of the game. Our pressure was excellent, they struggled all night with fluidity and played static footy for a good chunk of the night because of it.

They had great players out, but we also had Wood and Hunter out who are just as critical for us. Glass half full.

Agree, also Duryea out, an important backline general.

What did change is we instilled some confidence into the group. Of course there are flaws, always will have.

[The bulldog tragician]

And the Giants didn’t exactly field a team short of talent, line by they would have had line better and more developed players. Grand finalists, pre-season still a strong premiership fancy, with the reigning Coleman medallist. Just a shame that self same Coleman medallist was embroiled in a pregame stoush with shortest bloke on the field Caleb Daniel and allowed the most inexperienced player on the ground to side step him.

We still have weaknesses, agreed, but if we’d kicked better this should have been a 10goal win.. in terms of assessing the merits of our victory it’s still early, but I wouldn’t downplay its significance either, time alone will tell.

[mjp]

...but if we’d kicked better this should have been a 10goal win..

:-)

I liked your post but that line could be on our 2018/2019 tombstone!

[Danjul]

but if we’d kicked better this should have been a 10goal win..

The kicking has been poor for a very long time and, amazingly, shows absolutely no sign of improvement in years.

On Friday the forwards with set shots couldn’t get better than 20 degrees off line. So any shot from 40m was doubtful. Why can’t they put the ball over the goal umpire?

Our 2 key forwards have had 20 kicks between them over those 3 games, for a total of 1 goal each. Their supporting forwards haven’t done much with the ball. I think Dale had three relatively easy shots on Friday and one only just snuck in.



To be honest there is minimal coordination between zones so the forwards are having to battle for possessions. Things would be better if the ball was kicked forward better.

This bad kicking is part of the reason why the three games this season have delivered the worst number of goals for the 3 opening games in ten years. 5,7,8 is 20 goals in 12 quarters.

Dominating all over the ground should have led to a 10 goal win, but it didn’t because the kicking was so poor. And if it stays like this it will cost wins.

[The bulldog tragician]

The kicking has been poor for a very long time and, amazingly, shows absolutely no sign of improvement in years.

On Friday the forwards with set shots couldn’t get better than 20 degrees off line. So any shot from 40m was doubtful. Why can’t they put the ball over the goal umpire?

Our 2 key forwards have had 20 kicks between them over those 3 games, for a total of 1 goal each. Their supporting forwards haven’t done much with the ball. I think Dale had three relatively easy shots on Friday and one only just snuck in.



To be honest there is minimal coordination between zones so the forwards are having to battle for possessions. Things would be better if the ball was kicked forward better.

This bad kicking is part of the reason why the three games this season have delivered the worst number of goals for the 3 opening games in ten years. 5,7,8 is 20 goals in 12 quarters.

Dominating all over the ground should have led to a 10 goal win, but it didn’t because the kicking was so poor. And if it stays like this it will cost wins.
I noticed kicking was really poor in the nth-swans match - it’s part of the game that you’d think would have improved wouldn’t you.

[jeemak]

Just watched the replay of the first half and there's a few points that need to be mentioned.

Both Bruce and Dale did excellent team oriented things in the first quarter, while neither hit the scoreboard their acts were precisely what we needed. Particularly the Bruce tackle after the Wallis miss kick to even the contest and allow Richards to get it to Smith for a goal. Dale's hard running to shepherd Smith on the wing.

Toby played an excellent second quarter, in lieu of playing an excellent first quarter. Not huge numbers but important all over the ground, but noticeably between the defencive arc and centre.

English's first couple of decisive defencive possessions were with Jacobs within the screen shot, which says to me he had a job to run him ragged. However, for a half his major impact would have been forward of centre or between the arcs had he converted two very gettable opportunities to goal.

JJ has been excellent, sure he's a bit pudgy but for a slight touch on the ball he'd have a goal and a missed advantage where Bont may have kicked it out on the full anyway. His work around the ground aerially and in the ground dispute was very good.

Libba's impact over the replay seems to be less in the first half that I remember apart from some excellent moments early.

Additionally there's no real stage in the game where to this point GWS seem remotely as dangerous as we do. At the half we're a few goals up, have kicked a couple more points than the Giants have and we've also left two or three short.

Will be interesting to see if the second half follows trend, it's always great to watch the replay a few days after the game once things have cooled and perspective kicks in.

Pro tip - get watchafl.com international pass and use VPN to stage being out of country for on demand replays.

[jeemak]

Second half observations.....

Defended the ground well and dished up so many opportunities for GWS when we didn't need to.

Bruce put together two or three efforts when his chances came that were OK, and the delivery to him was pretty putrid. Our entire team is struggling in getting ourselves into transition and his form for mine is a symptom of that. Hopefully we and he can turn it around soon.

Libba was huge in the third. Not even touching it, just being in the contest sometimes had an impact. Eventually he did make an impact with his handling.

I don't get the drop Dale sentiments. He snagged one, coolly hit a player for a goal assist, played up ground and put a good shepherd or two on. He stays for mine.

Lloyd is in a bit of trouble. He didn't do enough across the quarters, and I feel he should be edged out.

English neutralised the ruck contest, and again, it seemed he ran Jacobs ragged.

[josie]

Agree with Jeemak it’s great when we win to watch replay is less emotional and hence objective.

I also watched replay again this evening and think I was a bit harsh on Dale. Will be fascinating to see what MC decide. On replay I though Maclean was very good and tough. And initially I had Dunkley in my votes then swapped him for Libba. Dunkley was good across all quarters. Daniels and Smith were pure class 2nd time around too. Cordy did some nice things and uses his body well to shepherd our on ballers. He must be relieved we have Keath to take pressure off him a bit.

If Whitfield, Kelly and Thug Greene had played who knows what would have happened. Guess it would have been a lot closer on score board but I reckon we would still have been very competitive and in with a real chance (60:40?/50:50?).

[Mofra]

See - I don’t think he really played as a ruckman. He played spare behind the ball but ‘take the hitouts’...I’m not even sure that is a position but it sure help block things up defensively.
Scott Wynd just threw up!

English had two shots on goal, although yes he was clearly behind the ball far more than in recent weeks. If we remember JLT we experimented with keeping English between the arcs and having a KPP contest the ruck from throw ins. That wasn't a great success.

Everyone except Bevo seems to think English needs support. I do have a few Josh Fraser concerns about Tim - a young gun being thrown to the wolves, and has the body of a 40 year old by the time he's 25

[comrade]

Given how vulnerable our defensive group is, I'm more than happy for English to play the 7th defender role.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I'm neither half full or half empty at the moment.

Friday Night was encouraging with a much better structure put in place / much better effort, but I thought our ball use was poor and our inability to kick straight is an ongoing concern.

We also have a number of players who are still out of form.

The next 2 weeks will tell us a bit.

[Mofra]

I'm neither half full or half empty at the moment.

Friday Night was encouraging with a much better structure put in place / much better effort, but I thought our ball use was poor and our inability to kick straight is an ongoing concern.

We also have a number of players who are still out of form.

The next 2 weeks will tell us a bit.
Worryingly, the players out of form are experienced and the next in line are kids - we need more experience, not less.

Suckling may be facing the cliff and Lloyd efforts were there, he was just ineffectual. I really like Lachie Young (for Suckers) and Lloyd's replacement could be a Dickson which is like for like and experienced, but the other contenders are a Schache/Caverra/Weightman.

[EasternWest]

I don't get the drop Dale sentiments. He snagged one, coolly hit a player for a goal assist, played up ground and put a good shepherd or two on. He stays for mine.

Jeemak also said:

Re: WB Game Day V GWS Giants R3 2020
I can't defend Dale after that.

He needs to go

[jeemak]

Jeemak also said:

Re: WB Game Day V GWS Giants R3 2020
I can't defend Dale after that.

He needs to go

That was before I saw the replay of him taking the ground first. Everyone's done it!

[Happy Days]

That was before I saw the replay of him taking the ground first. Everyone's done it!

No one can be held to account to anything said in the gameday thread during the game.

[Twodogs]

No one can be held to account to anything said in the gameday thread during the game.

Yep. There is a reverse statute of imitations that applies to the match day thread.

[bornadog]

No one can be held to account to anything said in the gameday thread during the game.

That is why I stay clear now of the game day thread. I check in at half time, but that is about all.

[EasternWest]

That was before I saw the replay of him taking the ground first. Everyone's done it!

Lol.

I thought Dale was ok too, but I'd like to see more from him.

[bornadog]

Lol.

I thought Dale was ok too, but I'd like to see more from him.

I think he needs to be dropped. Just not good enough for a forward who had access to 40 plus inside 50s and not one tackle.

[Grantysghost]

I think he needs to be dropped. Just not good enough for a forward who had access to 40 plus inside 50s and not one tackle.

And 1 across 3 games. Toss a coin with he and Lloyd. Dale has slightly better goal output Lloyd has 9 tackles.

[Grantysghost]

No one can be held to account to anything said in the gameday thread during the game.

So true. I had Dale banished to the outer rim when he scuffed that left foot around the corner set shot and then stood there cursing. I've eased back to just never to play again, who knows by Wednesday where he will be!

[westbulldog]

While Trengove. Lewis Young, West, Weightman and Sweet cool their heels for reasons unknown, Llloyd and especially Dale are liabilities. Dale seems to play one good game in 12. A bit like the cricketer who has a dozen innngs under 10 then scores a "promising" 50 to be retained. Both should be dropped.

[The Underdog]

Lol.

I thought Dale was ok too, but I'd like to see more from him.

I didn’t love his game but had him ahead of Lloyd by a fair way. I’d be fine with him staying and Lloyd going out.

[The Underdog]

While Trengove. Lewis Young, West, Weightman and Sweet cool their heels for reasons unknown, Llloyd and especially Dale are liabilities. Dale seems to play one good game in 12. A bit like the cricketer who has a dozen innngs under 10 then scores a "promising" 50 to be retained. Both should be dropped.

West has been injured I’m pretty sure. Think he’s close but probably not quite there.

[Mofra]

West has been injured I’m pretty sure. Think he’s close but probably not quite there.
Yeah, tough gig for a kid to come into the side after injury with no VFL games. The scratch matches may help a little bit.

[Jeanette54]

That is why I stay clear now of the game day thread. I check in at half time, but that is about all.

As an aside, I think this is one great virtue of this site during isolation. Somehow watching the game alone, and checking in at the intervals feels like you are still with a few supporters, and sharing the experience.

Thanks to all who contribute to game day threads.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

As an aside, I think this is one great virtue of this site during isolation. Somehow watching the game alone, and checking in at the intervals feels like you are still with a few supporters, and sharing the experience.

Thanks to all who contribute to game day threads.

I think the game day thread is also a perfect medium for a lot of us to vent. I’d be curious to know if the number of posts are typically higher during a poor performances than vs a good one. I should rephrase that - I’d like to know by how much it’s higher during a poor performance :cool:

[GVGjr]

That is why I stay clear now of the game day thread. I check in at half time, but that is about all.

I think the game day threads are pretty good, sure there are a couple that take a negative view but you're going to hear that at the actual game anyway.

I'd prefer for things to be a bit more positive but we can't have everyone towing the company line because that would become boring

[comrade]

I think the game day threads are pretty good, sure there are a couple that take a negative view but you're going to hear that at the actual game anyway.

I'd prefer for things to be a bit more positive but we can't have everyone towing the company line because that would become boring

And let's be fair, we've had more bad moments than good on field the last 3 years.

I love the GD threads, nothing better than blasting off amongst like-minded peers and I take back nothing I say in the heat of the moment :D

[FrediKanoute]

I didn’t love his game but had him ahead of Lloyd by a fair way. I’d be fine with him staying and Lloyd going out.

I agree. Dale has significant upside. You don't kick 20 in 5 games unless you do. Also around the ground as a link up player he is pretty effective when he gets his hands on the footy.

The shot for goal was awful and he will no doubt have had to live through that replay about 100 times.....can you imagine the team feedback session and stick he will get. If you are going to make a call that 2 of Suckers, Lloyd or Dale much go, the I would plump for Dale to stay - more upside.

[Ozza]

And let's be fair, we've had more bad moments than good on field the last 3 years.

I love the GD threads, nothing better than blasting off amongst like-minded peers and I take back nothing I say in the heat of the moment :D

I don't visit the game day thread during the game (call me crazy but I'm usually watching the game!!!) but I do take some enjoyment in reading over it afterwards if we have a game where we start poorly and then get our act together and win.....lots of toys out of the cot that need to put back in!!

[comrade]

I don't visit the game day thread during the game (call me crazy but I'm usually watching the game!!!) but I do take some enjoyment in reading over it afterwards if we have a game where we start poorly and then get our act together and win.....lots of toys out of the cot that need to put back in!!

Haha, guilty as charged.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't visit the game day thread during the game (call me crazy but I'm usually watching the game!!!) but I do take some enjoyment in reading over it afterwards if we have a game where we start poorly and then get our act together and win.....lots of toys out of the cot that need to put back in!!

I'm front of that line ;)

[jeemak]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Whatever happened to the Positive Thread?

[Mofra]

Whatever happened to the Positive Thread?
It's now called the Conor McKenna thread

[bornadog]

Good to see Tim is second in AFL intercept marks and 4th in Contested marks

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

It's now called the Conor McKenna thread
Gold

[hujsh]

Good to see Tim is second in AFL intercept marks and 4th in Contested marks

Are either of those worth as much as hitouts though?

Nah that's great to hear. Very encouraging.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Good to see Tim is second in AFL intercept marks and 4th in Contested marks

It probably highlights what we already know - he's great around the ground.

Could he become a CHF? Could he be the best second ruck/key forward in the game?

Like Sedat and a few others, I'm concerned about his ruck work but I like everything else about his game.

[comrade]

It probably highlights what we already know - he's great around the ground.

Could he become a CHF? Could he be the best second ruck/key forward in the game?

Like Sedat and a few others, I'm concerned about his ruck work but I like everything else about his game.

I think Bevo has conceded how poor our defense is one on one, so he's now using English as extra coverage and also as an intercepting weapon to launch from D50.

It's an interesting approach - lose the ruck 9 times out of 10, then get on your bike to take a mark in defence to start the attacking chain.

[GVGjr]

I think Bevo has conceded how poor our defense is one on one, so he's now using English as extra coverage and also as an intercepting weapon to launch from D50.

It's an interesting approach - lose the ruck 9 times out of 10, then get on your bike to take a mark in defence to start the attacking chain.

2 or 3 games into the season and Bevo's aware of the 1 v 1 issue in the back line?, so much for a bit of forward planning during the trading period.
English had a good game last week but I've never really rated his ability to be an influence in the back half with his marking and defensive work. Hopefully this is something that has clicked for him because at 205cm he needs be a force with his marking

[Danjul]

Are either of those worth as much as hitouts though?


Precisely, why have 3 positives when you can have 2?

With the Dogs lately (measured in years) it’s either walk or chew gum.

Can forwards be physical and kick goals? Constantly missing goals from 35m suggests not.

Don’t we have options to rectify this? Who cares!

Only one forward has more goals than the back pocket, who has struggled for selection (3 games in the last 10).

[comrade]

2 or 3 games into the season and Bevo's aware of the 1 v 1 issue in the back line?, so much for a bit of forward planning during the trading period.


Well, if he wasn't so stubborn, the answer to our defensive prayers is right under his nose. He's the shaggy haired kid who routinely misses from 35m out (yeah, I know he's not on his own there).

On your other point, English's marking is definitely on the improve.

[Cyberdoggie]

Strong performance Friday night featuring some great focus/commitment to the ball. I was one of many who really appreciated the efforts (I'm sure) put forth by the players.

Glass half full:
- Liber is the difference maker.
- Great show of resilience by Bont.
- Naught's terrific in consistently attacking the ball.
- JJ showed a willingness to compete we haven't seen much of in the past couple of seasons.
- Alex Keath looked like he was both willing AND able to play as a one-vs-one defender.
- MC played players in more familiar positions and all is OK with the world.

Glass half empty:
- We barely troubled the scorers vs a Giants team missing Whitfield, Greene and Kelly.
- English was better but really played as a 7th defender not a ruckman - you might be able to do that against Jacobs but other teams have actual footballers playing in the ruck.
- Suckling continues to look terrible.
- Bruce continues to look terrible. As for the Brereton opinion that the presence of Bruce helps Naughton walk taller - please. The kid grew up in Rockingham and was raised to fight the fight.
- Dale and Lloyd completely ineffective - I guess you could argue Dale was better than Lloyd (at least) but...wow.
- Can ANYONE play as an outside mid and get the ball except for Hunter in our entire squad? Vandermeer is (admittedly) a baby (a baby with a nice sidestep to be fair) but he is miles off being a 25 possession per game player.
- What is going on with Toby? Is he the player he flashed in the first quarter or whoever than bloke was who played out the game with barely a touch?
- We needed the Giants and the history and the EJ milestone etc to get 'UP' for a contest...what happens vs the Swans and Roos over the next two weeks when there is no emotion in the build up.

So - where are you. Half full or half empty. Are we moving ahead or was it just an unconvincing flash in the pan from a consistent team.

I feel like you jumped into my head and stole all my thoughts and opinions on the game MJP.

Totally agree with you on most points, although I thought English was much better in the ruck, still not great but he showed a few things which he has never done previously. He didn't get shoved out easily due to being too light, and he actually managed to win some taps by using his reach and direct them our way. Granted I thought Jacobs was poor and didn't use his frame at all, but it was something I hadn't seen Tim do before, which is a positive, if only he could kick straight.

Been very disappointed with Bruce, Dale and Lloyd this year. I didn't think Bruce attacked any contests, and he hasn't even jumped off the ground. So far he has just been a decoy.

Suckling looked injured to me against GWS and I think he will be replaced by Butler, who we already know is going to play.
When he had that kick on the boundary line forward 50 outer side, he was limping like his back was a problem.

I thought JJ was better but he looks a little unfit to me. Maybe a little soft round the middle and I was surprised that he looked slow and was chased down quite easily when he went for that run.

Hopefully we see a similar level of pressure and attack on Thursday, and maybe some of those that haven't been at their best will improve.

[hujsh]

It probably highlights what we already know - he's great around the ground.

Could he become a CHF? Could he be the best second ruck/key forward in the game?

Like Sedat and a few others, I'm concerned about his ruck work but I like everything else about his game.

Personally I think the best future for Tim is one where he plays as many minutes in the ruck as is possible with a pinch hitter taking relief when needed. His strength is being an extra tall mid and a mobile aerial presence.

For the times he manages to get the ball inside 50 he seems more likely to miss the shot than make it so I'm not especially keen on him as a forward. That's one problem I'd rather take away from than add to.

[Bulldog Joe]

Personally I think the best future for Tim is one where he plays as many minutes in the ruck as is possible with a pinch hitter taking relief when needed. His strength is being an extra tall mid and a mobile aerial presence.

For the times he manages to get the ball inside 50 he seems more likely to miss the shot than make it so I'm not especially keen on him as a forward. That's one problem I'd rather take away from than add to.

Unfortunately Tim has progressed very little with his ruck craft.

I do get he is very good as the mobile tall and I really liked how he covered the ground and contributed as a marking player, but if we persist with Tim as the ruckman we need to be prepared to start the game from half back if we can't shark opposition hit outs.

The best team we can put out probably concedes the ruck, but we need strategies to overcome the deficiency and that requires Tim to be very good in other parts of the ground.

[mjp]

Could he become a CHF?


I just dont see it. He is OK reading the play a kick behind the game, but we are talking about a position that no-one in the entire league plays well right now...

[bornadog]

I just dont see it. He is OK reading the play a kick behind the game, but we are talking about a position that no-one in the entire league plays well right now...

Maybe CHF is becoming redundant

[Danjul]

Personally I think the best future for Tim is one where he plays as many minutes in the ruck as is possible with a pinch hitter taking relief when needed. His strength is being an extra tall mid and a mobile aerial presence.

For the times he manages to get the ball inside 50 he seems more likely to miss the shot than make it so I'm not especially keen on him as a forward. That's one problem I'd rather take away from than add to.

last year he kicked 8 goals 10. Pretty accurate for a beginner.

[Danjul]

Unfortunately Tim has progressed very little with his ruck craft.

I do get he is very good as the mobile tall and I really liked how he covered the ground and contributed as a marking player, but if we persist with Tim as the ruckman we need to be prepared to start the game from half back if we can't shark opposition hit outs.

The best team we can put out probably concedes the ruck, but we need strategies to overcome the deficiency and that requires Tim to be very good in other parts of the ground.

We can’t possibly approach games with this mentality. Failure oriented isn’t acceptable.

[Danjul]

I just dont see it. He is OK reading the play a kick behind the game, but we are talking about a position that no-one in the entire league plays well right now...
English is a natural CHF.

When he can focus on the ball he usually positions himself so he gets it.

He took 7 marks on Friday (most for the team), moved beautifully, and can easily kick 50m.

I have more faith in him kicking at goal than the forwards we have tried this year.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I just dont see it. He is OK reading the play a kick behind the game, but we are talking about a position that no-one in the entire league plays well right now...

Agree that he takes his marks floating into the pack rather than leading into it, though the sample pot is still limited.

More that I'm trying to think how else we can utilise English without shooting ourselves in the foot. I guess the question is, do we think he can become a good ruck? I'm not sold.

What would you do MJP?

[hujsh]

last year he kicked 8 goals 10. Pretty accurate for a beginner.

That's not accurate by any metric.

He's also not a beginner. He's a late developing ruckman but was playing football before his growth spurt so I'm sure he's played forward and taken plenty of set shots. He just doesn't seem to be good at them. We also don't seem to be able to improve that aspect of players games.

[Danjul]

That's not accurate by any metric.

He's also not a beginner. He's a late developing ruckman but was playing football before his growth spurt so I'm sure he's played forward and taken plenty of set shots. He just doesn't seem to be good at them. We also don't seem to be able to improve that aspect of players games.
I cannot understand why professional footballers can’t be trained to kick straight (most of the time) with a 40m set shot.

[Murphy'sLore]

I cannot understand why professional footballers can’t be trained to kick straight (most of the time) with a 40m set shot.
That is one of the biggest mysteries of the game.

[hujsh]

I cannot understand why professional footballers can’t be trained to kick straight (most of the time) with a 40m set shot.

There we find common ground. Fatigue is the best answer I can muster. I don't believe it holds up to intense scrutiny though

[DOG GOD]

It’s probably only how I see things but for me, we have similar issues to most teams playing at the moment.

1) we have players who look unfit (Bruce in particular)
And
2) players who are going through the motions and look disinterested.

This year, anyone can beat anyone on any given day. AFL is a lot of mindset, and they way I’m seeing it, there are more than “a few” players in each team who look to have the “blah” mindset about season 2020. Imagine training, hubbing, doing what ever the hell the AFL demand of you to probably have the season suspended again or even abandoned.

[ledge]

It’s probably only how I see things but for me, we have similar issues to most teams playing at the moment.

1) we have players who look unfit (Bruce in particular)
And
2) players who are going through the motions and look disinterested.

This year, anyone can beat anyone on any given day. AFL is a lot of mindset, and they way I’m seeing it, there are more than “a few” players in each team who look to have the “blah” mindset about season 2020. Imagine training, hubbing, doing what ever the hell the AFL demand of you to probably have the season suspended again or even abandoned.

$$$ they are paid to care and if they are being “blah” they risk losing their job and career.

[Twodogs]

$$$ they are paid to care and if they are being “blah” they risk losing their job and career.

Yep. Lists get cut to 35 (?) at the end of this season so you'd think that would be enough to focus most players' minds.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

[QUOTE=Twodogs;680386]Yep. Lists get cut to 35 (?) at the end of this season so you'd think that would be enough to focus most players' minds.[/?QUOTE]

Is 35 a certainty?

[bornadog]

Yep. Lists get cut to 35 (?) at the end of this season so you'd think that would be enough to focus most players' minds.[/?QUOTE]

Is 35 a certainty?

No, there hasn't been an announcement

[Twodogs]

I was wondering how they were going to be able to do it with existing contracts. I'm glad I'm wrong and hope it doesn't happen

[bornadog]

I was wondering how they were going to be able to do it with existing contracts. I'm glad I'm wrong and hope it doesn't happen

TD, you are neither right or wrong. HQ still thinking about it.

[FrediKanoute]

English is a natural CHF.

When he can focus on the ball he usually positions himself so he gets it.

He took 7 marks on Friday (most for the team), moved beautifully, and can easily kick 50m.

I have more faith in him kicking at goal than the forwards we have tried this year.

I don't see it. I could agree a natural CHB, but I really like what he is doing in the ruck. He is effectively playing as a defensive ruck rover. That is going to work against some teams.

[mjp]

I cannot understand why professional footballers can’t be trained to kick straight (most of the time) with a 40m set shot.

'cos kicking is very (very) hard.

And what you do perfectly in practice doesn't always translate.

Some basketballers are better free-throw shooters than others. Some footballers are better kicks at goal. It's like the old cartoon - "I taught my dog to whistle today" - "Well, let's hear him then?" - "I only said I taught him - I didn't say he learned".

It's hard. And only the most dedicated players who REALLY believe that they have a problem will spend the time to work on it in their own time and improve.

[jeemak]

The other thing is that those of us who don't get to kick a footy all the time and have to have regular jobs assume kicking the footy all the time is sexy AF.

It would be without all the professionalism. But it ain't.

[Remi Moses]

Whatever happened to the Positive Thread?

Doesn’t exist on here much nowadays .

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Doesn’t exist on here much nowadays .
I must admit to dropping my bundle after rounds one and two. I needed the Positive Thread

[Danjul]

cos ...... is very (very) hard.

And what you do perfectly in practice doesn't always translate.

It's hard. And only the most dedicated ....... who REALLY believe that they have a problem will spend the time to work on it in their own time and improve.

I found that this applies to surgeons too. But they are expected to get it correct (most of the time).

[Twodogs]

'cos kicking is very (very) hard.


Is it though? I've said several times, and I will continue to say it it because I truly believe it, that kicking for goal comes down to having a set routine. And that routine isn't a long way away from driving a golf ball off the tee. No golfer was born with the ability to drive the ball 300 metres. They had to learn the routine to do it and then reinforced their ability by practicing that routine over and over again.

I constantly see players running in from all sorts of weird angles spinning the ball in their hands and leaning back or sideways as the ball hits their foot. People say "oh well whatever works for them" but it's not working otherwise we wouldn't constantly be having this conversation. I never see golfers drive the ball by any old method they have picked up along the way.

However I do see players at training practicing their goalkicking with nobody standing on the mark, when they aren't fatigued and reinforcing all the same errors they have been for years. And we wonder why we go into halftime with scores like 2.8?

The technique is not difficult. Walk back to the top of your mark. Take a deep breath to settle yourself. Then run in a straight line and drop the ball on your foot at the point when your head is over it. Don't lift your head. Kick through the ball. If an AFL player can't remember those simple steps (which I bet most remember when they are playing golf) then they aren't trying very hard to master a basic of the game.

I'll see your story about teaching your dog to whistle and raise it with the story about the time a reporter told Gary Player he'd been lucky to win a tournament. "Yeah, it's funny but the more I practice the luckier I get"

[jeemak]

Yeah I dunno if driving or putting is more like goal kicking. I'd probably say the latter is.

You have said you'd be able to teach anyone how to kick a goal TD, at least five thousand times (~20% of all posts by you!).

[jeemak]

I found that this applies to surgeons too. But they are expected to get it correct (most of the time).

It's amazing that they can do that amongst all the weights, fitness and conditioning including rehabilitation surgeons have to go through.

[jeemak]

Anyway, just re-watching Thursday's game, I reckon Crozier needs to improve his kicking.

He's a bit safe for me sometimes and he also fluffs a lot of his more aggressive kicks. Almost the opposite of Suckling who seems to do well on aggressive kicks and completely butchers the others a lot of the time.

I guess with Crozier though, what he does in the air and in other contests is just so impressive you kind of ignore the kicking deficiencies.

Additionally, I don't think Bruce is as fat as people suggest he is. He needs to do some work, sure, but what I really think is his issue is he is having to run a lot more up and down the ground with us given our defencive strategy and the way we transition the ball meaning he's more cooked than he'd previously be and that's impacting him. Hard to tell without being there, but I see a lot of him high up the ground a lot of the time, like I do with Naughton and it makes me think there's more at play with him that trying to fit into our structure and being too heavy.

[Danjul]

It's amazing that they can do that amongst all the weights, fitness and conditioning including rehabilitation surgeons have to go through.

weights, fitness and conditioning including rehabilitation. ...... all things which make it easier.

All the footballers have to contribute in a set shot from 40m is ..... hold the ball straight, drop the ball straight, kick the ball straight.

(If Dixon and Schache can do it most of the others should too)

[bornadog]

I think footballers today are brilliant kicks, way better than they were in the past. Some of the things players can do with a ball these days are incredible.

Yes goal kicking is an issue but as I have said before it comes down to two things, fatigue when they are about to have a shot and in between the ears.

[Happy Days]

Anyway, just re-watching Thursday's game, I reckon Crozier needs to improve his kicking.

He's a bit safe for me sometimes and he also fluffs a lot of his more aggressive kicks. Almost the opposite of Suckling who seems to do well on aggressive kicks and completely butchers the others a lot of the time.

I guess with Crozier though, what he does in the air and in other contests is just so impressive you kind of ignore the kicking deficiencies.

Additionally, I don't think Bruce is as fat as people suggest he is. He needs to do some work, sure, but what I really think is his issue is he is having to run a lot more up and down the ground with us given our defencive strategy and the way we transition the ball meaning he's more cooked than he'd previously be and that's impacting him. Hard to tell without being there, but I see a lot of him high up the ground a lot of the time, like I do with Naughton and it makes me think there's more at play with him that trying to fit into our structure and being too heavy.

Bruce isn't literally fat, he's AFL fat and noticeably heavier than he was last season or even in round one. I think, however, that it's being made to look worse by his generally piss poor efforts at chasing and selfish acts like trying to take mark of the year 80m from the opposition goal with numbers at his feet.

Re Crozier, I think you're right. He has the capacity to be a fantastic user by foot but I think having been thrust into a generalship role has made him inherently and necessarily more conservative. Maybe it'll open up a bit when Wood is back.

[mjp]

Yeah I dunno if driving or putting is more like goal kicking. I'd probably say the latter is.

You have said you'd be able to teach anyone how to kick a goal TD, at least five thousand times (~20% of all posts by you!).

Putting and Driving a freaking STATIONARY ball is nothing like having to kick a moving ball. Compare putting and driving to a place kick in the NFL or rugby league if you like - but NOT to kicking a footy in Australian footy. All the things we compare it too - free throw shooting, putting, field goal kicking, etc - feature a simple motor skill with a stationary ball. Kicking is a complex motor skill with a moving ball.

[Twodogs]

Yeah I dunno if driving or putting is more like goal kicking. I'd probably say the latter is.

You have said you'd be able to teach anyone how to kick a goal TD, at least five thousand times (~20% of all posts by you!).

It's because I could.


I think footballers today are brilliant kicks, way better than they were in the past. Some of the things players can do with a ball these days are incredible.

Yes goal kicking is an issue but as I have said before it comes down to two things, fatigue when they are about to have a shot and in between the ears.

Goalkicking has gotten worse. Players like Dunstall, Lockett and Beasley were all considerably better set shots than any player playing today.


Putting and Driving a freaking STATIONARY ball is nothing like having to kick a moving ball. Compare putting and driving to a place kick in the NFL or rugby league if you like - but NOT to kicking a footy in Australian footy. All the things we compare it too - free throw shooting, putting, field goal kicking, etc - feature a simple motor skill with a stationary ball. Kicking is a complex motor skill with a moving ball.

The ball moves maybe 1-1.5 metres and is always under the control of the kicker. It's not like the player has to throw it 5 metres in the air and try and kick it while it falls to ground, although that seems to be the method some players adopt.

Yes, it's a motor skill (and I work in a field where we test and try to improve fine motor skills so I do know a little bit about them) but it's not a totally unpredictable motorskill. It can be controlled.

[GVGjr]

Goalkicking has gotten worse. Players like Dunstall, Lockett and Beasley were all considerably better set shots than any player playing today.


And they played in games where the weather impact the playing surface and the footy and never got to play in a dome
Players of today can covert the difficult angles better and tricky dribble goals but miss out in a big way on the basic meat and potatoes set shots.

I'm with ya TD, it can be improved. Just have a look at Rock the Casboult

[Twodogs]

And they played in games where the weather impact the playing surface and the footy and never got to play in a dome
Players of today can covert the difficult angles better and tricky dribble goals but miss out in a big way on the basic meat and potatoes set shots.

I'm with ya TD, it can be improved. Just have a look at Rock the Casboult

Exactly, they only got one ball to use from start to finish back in the day too.

Look, it's important to point out that I am exclusively talking about taking set shots for goal when I say players could be doing so much better. I'm amazed at the way some players can make the ball talk with dribble shots from the boundary and barrells from outside 50 on the run, that's something players of old couldn't do. But most of them could get the ball between the posts from 30-40 out 6 or 7 times out of 10.

[jeemak]

Putting and Driving a freaking STATIONARY ball is nothing like having to kick a moving ball. Compare putting and driving to a place kick in the NFL or rugby league if you like - but NOT to kicking a footy in Australian footy. All the things we compare it too - free throw shooting, putting, field goal kicking, etc - feature a simple motor skill with a stationary ball. Kicking is a complex motor skill with a moving ball.

Woah man it wasn't my analogy to begin with! Was just saying if I had to use golf as the analogy I'd say set shot goal kicking reminds me more of putting than it does hitting a ball with a driver.

[Twodogs]

Woah man it wasn't my analogy to begin with! Was just saying if I had to use golf as the analogy I'd say set shot goal kicking reminds me more of putting than it does hitting a ball with a driver.

No, no. It's all your fault. :)