Our Ruck Direction

[Bumper Bulldogs]

So we know we have a great around the ground on baller in English but are we cutting our nose off at selection table.
With Naughton going down for 6 weeks will Bevo throw caution to the wind and seek the next best left field move in the AFL. Is English what we need as a front line ruckman? Let’s face it he is not Ben Hudson or Will Minson but why are we getting beaten so badly in the centre bounce.

Will Minson 199cm @ 106kg
Ben Hudson 199cm @ 106kg

English is 205cm and 93kg so you would think he could get his hand on the ball and hit to our advantage at the centre bounce more often. English is young and has time on his side.

Is it a technic thing or does he not have the aggression required to be the front line ruck in an AFL side.

Should we just sit him in the forward line and bring in Trengrove to go at it in the ruck.

Should we looking fir another ruckman and if so what our it make our side any better.

Also why do we get beaten up at the centre bounce by Grundy and Goldstein when they are shorter than English.

Would we be better to stop the ruck thing with English (stop eating to try and put weight on) and use him just like Mason Cox at Collingwood

[Danjul]

So we know we have a great around the ground on baller in English but are we cutting our nose off at selection table.
With Naughton going down for 6 weeks will Bevo throw caution to the wind and seek the next best left field move in the AFL. Is English what we need as a front line ruckman? Let’s face it he is not Ben Hudson or Will Minson but why are we getting beaten so badly in the centre bounce.

Will Minson 199cm @ 106kg
Ben Hudson 199cm @ 106kg

English is 205cm and 93kg so you would think he could get his hand on the ball and hit to our advantage at the centre bounce more often. English is young and has time on his side.

Is it a technic thing or does he not have the aggression required to be the front line ruck in an AFL side.

Should we just sit him in the forward line and bring in Trengrove to go at it in the ruck.

Should we looking fir another ruckman and if so what our it make our side any better.

Also why do we get beaten up at the centre bounce by Grundy and Goldstein when they are shorter than English.

Would we be better to stop the ruck thing with English (stop eating to try and put weight on) and use him just like Mason Cox at Collingwood

Opposing ruckmen are usually 10 kg heavier in the upper body. They have been using this to advantage by making contact with him moments before the ball arrives. Grundy has been able to do this in such a way as to remove English from the contest, if he misses the ball by 1cm Grundy can exert control over where the ball goes.

English’s opponents were doing this to him in the VFL.

[bornadog]

Even though English is not a natural ruckman, he is still learning his trade. If you look at his figures and compare him at the same age as Goldy, Gawn, and a few others, they are about at the same development level. Grundy is way ahead at that age in hitouts, but he is the number one in the AFL and probably the best ruckman in the last 10 years.

In the meantime, my ideal would be to give English support, but only against the good ruckman. In other games against emerging or average ruckman, like last Thursday, we can wing it and rely on the mids to clear the ball. Unfortunately, when the Grundies and Goldies of the world tap it straight to their own mids, then it becomes difficult for our mids and that is why you need a Trengove or even Sweet to help out.

Bevo as we know has his own ideas of what the rucks should look like.

When you look at the ruckman during Bevo's tenure - Minson AA, but rarely played him, Campbell, Roughhead all gone because they didn't fit the Bevo mold, ie a player that is not just good at hitouts, but does more around the ground like Grundy. Hopefully English will continue his development and become a Grundy like player. He is certainly great around the ground.

[Happy Days]

I'm still a bit concerned about Tim. It's nice that he's handsomely beating some lumbering guys around the ground while still losing the majority of the taps, but what happens when he come up against those ruckmen near his level outside of centre bounces? It's no coincidence that he's been destroyed by Grundy every time they play, and it's not just through Grundy's silver service tap work.

He's certainly going to make it in some form, but I'm gonna need to see him be competitive in stoppages before I'm convinced its as a ruck, regardless of how much work he puts in around the ground.

What I have been incredibly impressed with is his sure presence in contested marking situations. When a ball is coming in high he looks totally dominant in a pack. His ruck work is a million miles off but in those spots he looks like Dean Cox.

[Hotdog60]

Is it a timing thing in that he allows the body contact from the opposing ruckman.
If he timed his leap better he should avoid some of that contact early and out reach his opponent.
Of course this also depends on how well the ball is bounced. I would like Tim to take a almighty run a jump at the ball and thump it as far as he can in our direction and let the half forwards get involved.
I think Minno was the last ruckman we had that thump it clear of the centre. If your opponent is a great tap ruck don't play to his strengths I this is easier said than done.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I get what your all stating but I wouldn’t mind resting Timmy at Full Forward whole Naughton is out of the side. Trengrove can ruck with Tim The occasional chop out. I recon Tim is good for two or three a game coming out of the square. It also might help get through the year if he’s not to bashed up mid season

[Danjul]

I get what your all stating but I wouldn’t mind resting Timmy at Full Forward whole Naughton is out of the side. Trengrove can ruck with Tim The occasional chop out. I recon Tim is good for two or three a game coming out of the square. It also might help get through the year if he’s not to bashed up mid season
Good observations. I think part of Tom Boyd’s difficulty was continually being bashed in the ruck. Would not want it to happen again.

[jeemak]

He's just played his best game for the club as an around the ground high marking ruck/ midfielder, to the team's benefit. I'd persevere with him in that role for a while given he was also good in it the week before, again, to our team's benefit.

Giving away a lot of strength and experience comes at a price in ruck contests, though I think he's shown what he is capable of around the ground outweighs that these past two weeks. Against the Pies our midfield did not show up, at all, it will need to each week to help him out.

[Remi Moses]

I think the hit outs to advantage should be the only stat used
Completely futile getting a million hit outs to no advantage

[jeemak]

I think the hit outs to advantage should be the only stat used
Completely futile getting a million hit outs to no advantage

Provided they're actually to advantage and measured as such.

[Happy Days]

Provided they're actually to advantage and measured as such.

Yeah there's hitouts to advantage that see a player tackled and a second stoppage, and then there's HOLLYWOOD TAPS over the ruckman's head to a player streaming forward. They need to differentiate between the two.

[jeemak]

Yeah there's hitouts to advantage that see a player tackled and a second stoppage, and then there's HOLLYWOOD TAPS over the ruckman's head to a player streaming forward. They need to differentiate between the two.

I think I'm a little like Bevo in that I think the hit outs to advantage stats are ill measured and overrated. I've always thought ruckmen get a free pass for just hitting it near a bloke, without doing much around the ground.

A saying I have is there isn't a more dangerous combination on a footy field than ruckmen and ambition, and it's pretty obvious why. What we have with Tim is literally elite in terms of impact around the ground, he's one ruck that I'm happy to say is the antithesis of that saying. If he turns out to be mildly competent at stoppages then he's going to be a generational player.

[Dry Rot]

Goldstein this week

Time to give him a Sweet taste IMO to help out Timmy

[jeemak]

Goldstein this week

Time to give him a Sweet taste IMO to help out Timmy

But what do we gain versus sacrifice if we bring Sweet in? Tim's played his best footy around the ground these past couple of weeks, do we bring Sweet in just for the stoppages and let Tim rove? What does Sweet do when we actually have it and when we don't, and there's no ruck contests to contest?

Who goes out for Sweet? Our team defence backed by English playing behind the ball at times has been excellent the last two weeks, how does Sweet actually add to that?

[MrMahatma]

Surely if we’re worried about a dominant ruck man, we don’t bring in another rookie?

If we want English to have support, it has to be JT.

[bornadog]

But what do we gain versus sacrifice if we bring Sweet in? Tim's played his best footy around the ground these past couple of weeks, do we bring Sweet in just for the stoppages and let Tim rove? What does Sweet do when we actually have it and when we don't, and there's no ruck contests to contest?

Who goes out for Sweet? Our team defence backed by English playing behind the ball at times has been excellent the last two weeks, how does Sweet actually add to that?

Naughton

[Happy Days]

Think we need to reconsider having at best a threat to bring the ball to ground and at worst a total novice in a key forward position against the Roos (especially when the "good" key forward would be Bruce), who's backline is actually pretty dynamic and dangerous at rebounding the ball. I'd prefer Schache or even Dickson to come in to force some greater accountability rather than bring in Sweet and hope for the best.

Also no one @ me with "Sweet beat Goldstein in the pre-season" because I looked it up and Goldstein had 47 hitouts to 25, which I'm pretty sure should be enough evidence for the only one among us to bring it up.

[Danjul]

Catch 22

we can’t possibly play Sweet in any capacity
because
we haven’t played Sweet in any capacity.

[soupman]

I guess this is the week we find out if English has progressed or has just faced some shit rucks.

His goal in the ruck must just be to limit Goldsteins influence in the hitouts, and match his influence around the ground. Both are hard tasks. English's recent form around the ground means the latter is feasible, but if he can limit the hitout dominance of an actually good ruck it will be a major step forward.

I did like the idea of bringing in Trengrove to help wear down good opposition ruckmen, but with the shortened quarters I don't think it's feasible to pick him as a second ruck, although Ben Brown is one of the three nearly perfect physical matchups for him.

[Danjul]

Think we need to reconsider having at best a threat to bring the ball to ground and at worst a total novice in a key forward position against the Roos (especially when the "good" key forward would be Bruce), who's backline is actually pretty dynamic and dangerous at rebounding the ball. I'd prefer Schache or even Dickson to come in to force some greater accountability rather than bring in Sweet and hope for the best.

Also no one @ me with "Sweet beat Goldstein in the pre-season" because I looked it up and Goldstein had 47 hitouts to 25, which I'm pretty sure should be enough evidence for the only one among us to bring it up.

actual stats -

Dogs v North 2019

Goldstein: disposals 28 hitouts 57
English: Disposals 11 hitouts 7

Goldstein best on ground, match winning performance.


Marsh cup

Goldstein: disposals 14 hitouts 47
Sweet : Disposals 13 hitouts 25

Goldstein behind Bont, Macrae and Hunter. Dunkley just behind him


In short, Sweet was beaten but restricted Goldstein’s impact and allowed our midfielders to dominate.

[Happy Days]

actual stats -

Dogs v North 2019

Goldstein: disposals 28 hitouts 57
English: Disposals 11 hitouts 7

Goldstein best on ground, match winning performance.


Marsh cup

Goldstein: disposals 14 hitouts 47
Sweet : Disposals 13 hitouts 25

Goldstein behind Bont, Macrae and Hunter. Dunkley just behind him


In short, Sweet was beaten but restricted Goldstein’s impact and allowed our midfielders to dominate.

Lmao got him

[Danjul]

Lmao got him
Just completing the (incomplete) picture you painted, glad to be of assistance.

[bornadog]

Marsh cup

Goldstein: disposals 14 hitouts 47
Sweet : Disposals 13 hitouts 25

Goldstein behind Bont, Macrae and Hunter. Dunkley just behind him


In short, Sweet was beaten but restricted Goldstein’s impact and allowed our midfielders to dominate.

You forgot the most important stat - we thrashed North, plus it was a practise match.

[Danjul]

You forgot the most important stat - we thrashed North, plus it was a practise match.
I don’t understand the comment.

I said it was the Marsh cup (preseason comp), and when our 4 midfielders are in the 5 best on the ground we usually win.

And against North, if we hold Goldstein we usually win.

for example: 2017

Campbell 12 disposals, 1 goal, 49 hitouts.
Goldstein 15 disposals, 1 goal, 25 hitouts.

we win.

[EasternWest]

Just completing the (incomplete) picture you painted, glad to be of assistance.

It's a twofer!

Just ragging Danjul. I enjoy reading your posts, I'm always happy to consider a different viewpoint.

[bornadog]

I don’t understand the comment.

I said it was the Marsh cup (preseason comp), and when our 4 midfielders are in the 5 best on the ground we usually win.



Marsh Cup = praticise match

[kruder]

What I love about Tim is his game sense to drop back and help out the defence and that his marking is becoming a real feature of his game.

I think with Naughty out, it gives us the opportunity to play Sweet because of Tims flexibility and if you're ever going to play both this seems like the week to do it.

[GVGjr]

What I love about Tim is his game sense to drop back and help out the defence and that his marking is becoming a real feature of his game.

I think with Naughty out, it gives us the opportunity to play Sweet because of Tims flexibility and if you're ever going to play both this seems like the week to do it.

Some of his work below his knees was Hudson-esque. He's showing some good signs around the ground like a midfielder but his ruck work still needs some improvement. He's still learning his craft

[Rocket Science]

We have a ruck direction?

[Mofra]

This week would be the week to consider a Sweet/English combo with Naughton out, although it's worth noting North may have both Cunnington and Ziebell out which is a hell of a lot of ball-winning capacity to lose.

[comrade]

This week would be the week to consider a Sweet/English combo with Naughton out, although it's worth noting North may have both Cunnington and Ziebell out which is a hell of a lot of ball-winning capacity to lose.

North can't win without Cunnington.

[bornadog]

North can't win without Cunnington.

In last weeks injury update, he was marked down as TEST, so he may be available.

[Rocco Jones]

North can't win without Cunnington.

He is a very underrated. Just so elite at such an important facet of footy and plays within his limitations elsewhere. Terrific player.

Depending on how good/bad his tank is, I would be very tempted to play. Like how much ground can he cover and for how long? If he isn't a complete liability, I would love to see English playing in a role that doesn't involved having to compete in hitouts. I think he can really help fill the void left by Naughts as a higher tall forward.

[Axe Man]

In last weeks injury update, he was marked down as TEST, so he may be available.

He was named to play yesterday but was a late withdrawal so who knows? Probably a fair chance to play unfortunately.

[FrediKanoute]

We have seen since 2015 that Bevo doesn't rate the traditional ruckman - Grundy/Goldy/Gawn are not traditional ruckmen. Think about who he has used in the ruck role - Ayce Cordy, Boyd, Roughie, Dunks, Trengove, English to name a few.

In effect the way Bevo sees the ruck is a 50-50 contest that can give you an advantage if you win it. But if the best a ruckman can do is win the 50-50 contests then that is not enough. They have to contribute around the ground and at the stoppages. Watching foootage of English over the last 2 weeks, what impresses me about him is not that he plays a kick behind the play, but that he is a link up player going forward, providing a viable target and running the opposition ruckman off their feet. Doesn't always work - Grundy out ran English, but against the Sydney sides he was awesome.

[bornadog]

We saw today Tim was given a different role. Taking most of the centre bounce ruck work then slipping down to the forward line to rest and stretch the Crows backline. In the end Dunks took most of the ruck work around the ground.

Of course this won't work against a Max Gawn, or Grundy, but was very effective today as the mids cleaned up the clearances, (well Bont did)

[WBFC4FFC]

We saw today Tim was given a different role. Taking most of the centre bounce ruck work then slipping down to the forward line to rest and stretch the Crows backline. In the end Dunks took most of the ruck work around the ground.

Of course this won't work against a Max Gawn, or Grundy, but was very effective today as the mids cleaned up the clearances, (well Bont did)

You are doing a disservice to Libba. He did the in and under on Sunday, as well as plenty of the skilful bits, especially when "resting" on the half-forward line. Should have kicked the goal when he got the 50 though.

I don't think he has ever played a game in the seconds either? If so, it would have been later with his injuries but he has been there since Round 1, 2011 in the middle.

[bornadog]

You are doing a disservice to Libba. He did the in and under on Sunday, as well as plenty of the skilful bits, especially when "resting" on the half-forward line. Should have kicked the goal when he got the 50 though.

I don't think he has ever played a game in the seconds either? If so, it would have been later with his injuries but he has been there since Round 1, 2011 in the middle.

Sorry, I don't understand your response. I didn't talk about Libba at all?

[WBFC4FFC]

Sorry, I don't understand your response. I didn't talk about Libba at all?

Re-reading my post I sounded harsh but i was not trying to be. Apologies if it came across that way.

It was in reference to your last sentence, where you inferred that Bont got all the clearances on Sunday. I just thought Libba and Macrae played their stock-standard games, with Smith doing better than his already high average as well.

Having said all that, there is nothing to get carried away about. The Crows Mids are their weak-point and they made the Dog's look like a million bucks.

[bornadog]

Re-reading my post I sounded harsh but i was not trying to be. Apologies if it came across that way.

It was in reference to your last sentence, where you inferred that Bont got all the clearances on Sunday. I just thought Libba and Macrae played their stock-standard games, with Smith doing better than his already high average as well.

Having said all that, there is nothing to get carried away about. The Crows Mids are their weak-point and they made the Dog's look like a million bucks.

I didn't think it was harsh. I was confused but now realise what you are talking about. Yeah Libba is a clearance king.

[Axe Man]

I don't think he has ever played a game in the seconds either? If so, it would have been later with his injuries but he has been there since Round 1, 2011 in the middle.

He played 3 games for Footscray in 2017.