The Pile-On

[jazzadogs]

I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about 'the pile-on', as experienced across Woof, Twitter and Facebook with Billy Gowers last night. Especially in the context of everybody watching from home and not having their usual outlets.

For me, I would definitely have been classified as part of the Pile-On, both here and on twitter (I don't use the Facebook groups). I feel that I have every right to criticise an individual player for a significant mistake, but regret my comments re: immediate delisting.

IMO Woof and my personal Twitter are safe spaces. I am not followed by any players and I doubt they read woof (and if they do, I really don't think they should). The only way that I can imagine my comments are seen is by the players individually searching their own names (which again, I don't think they should be doing). Regardless, I had made a pact with myself to be positive about our players online this year to try and contribute to a more positive online environment overall - I broke this pact last night.

The line for me is drawn under any tagging of players, commenting or replying to their personal social media posts or direct messaging them. That is putting your negative views in a place where the players cannot avoid them, and the potential impact is much greater.

What are your views on the Pile-On, and criticism online?

[comrade]

I'd imagine Twitter and FB were fairly savage to old Billy, but that's the nature of the beast.

I think it was relatively tame here on WOOF, and while there was well justified frustration in the moment, it wasn't over the top and there were even some cooler heads defending him.

I also think there is an element of 'I told you so' and some frustration with Bevo continuing to pick his favourites boiling over.

Just imagine if it slingshotted down the other end for a match winning goal. Billy might have decided to just stay in QLD.

[jazzadogs]

I'd imagine Twitter and FB were fairly savage to old Billy, but that's the nature of the beast.

I think it was relatively tame here on WOOF, and while there was well justified frustration in the moment, it wasn't over the top and there were even some cooler heads defending him.

I also think there is an element of 'I told you so' and some frustration with Bevo continuing to pick his favourites boiling over.

Just imagine if it slingshotted down the other end for a match winning goal. Billy might have decided to just stay in QLD.

I think Woof is always fairly tame and reasoned. I find Facebook to be extremely frustrating, and Twitter goes both ways.

Without referring specifically to the Gowers situation, what more can be done to protect players from the sort of criticism which is just thinly veiled abuse?

[bornadog]

I don't know what Billy achieved in training or in scratch matches to warrant selection, but in any case he was there in the RWB.

Yes, the moment he kicked that ball when he had an option to kick to Smith all on his own in the forward 50, I screamed at home. Mrs BAD was not happy as I promised her I wouldn't yell and scream whilst watching any Bulldog matches.

I agree with JazzaD, there has been too much bagging Billy and not enough positivity towards our gutsy win.

[Mofra]

Online forums can bring out the worst in human behaviour, and FaceBook is probably the worst of it.

Football is an emotional game sometimes. I certainly think vitriol towards any of our own players is unwarranted and don't want to join the online pile-on, but if I'm being honest my language last night watching the game late in the 4th isn't the same way I'd speak around my grandmother.

[The Doctor]

I was unable to see the match last night and was stuck with watching an NRL match. To keep up to date I flicked between the AFL website and the WOOF match day thread. I found the Woof match day thread hilarious. I often do on the occasions where I can't see the game. The number of times I've seen our team/players slagged off with monotonous regularity only to find we still won I've lost count. You just can't take the comments, good or bad, too seriously. These are made in the heat of the moment just like barracking from the sidelines at the game. I do, however, find it distasteful when a player is personally attacked. Thats not on.

[Axe Man]

Agree that the personal messages, tagging of players, etc on social media is not on at all unless it's positive (personally I would never do it at all).

I get the frustration in the match day thread during the game but the considered pre and post match negativity towards Gowers has been over the top on here in my opinion, simply because I hold WOOF to a much higher standard then anywhere else online. Not that there has been anything awful said, but it has just been too much. Like it or not he's one of us and we should show all our players support when they pull on the jumper.

If I ever look at comments on Facebook I almost always immediately regret it.

[mjp]

Football is an emotional game sometimes. .

Yeah - it is. The Gowers moment wasn't great but ultimately it didn't cost us anything. In the 2nd quarter we had no-ruckman at a D50 stoppage - to me a much more egregious error - yet no-one seems too phased. Then again, that didn't cost us anything either I guess.

I don't know. I do think with some players people cheer for their own storyline. A lot of people have decided Gowers is no good, therefore everytime he does something wrong calling it out helps support their opinion. I was surprised he was selected - but what can I say, he must be playing well in match sim as Bevo is regularly talking about him being in the mix. Which means he needs to pick him so that the players understand that what they are doing on the track actually matters with regard selection.

[Mofra]

A lot of people have decided Gowers is no good, therefore everytime he does something wrong calling it out helps support their opinion.
In the AFL world especially, initial impressions about a player can last a long time. People were still calling Gia soft later in his career when he'd often cop a hit while kicking but still would deliver the ball well in traffic. It's a hard thing to shake

[GVGjr]

Billy frustrates me at times as he is often capable of performing a lot better but I tend to agree that from a forum perspective he copped a bit more than his share last night. I might be wrong here but I suspect that had we been 5 goals up many of us might not have angst with his decision making.

With reduced quarters we probably can't even make allowances for fatigue

[bornadog]

In the 2nd quarter we had no-ruckman at a D50 stoppage - to me a much more egregious error - yet no-one seems too phased. Then again, that didn't cost us anything either I guess.

Thank you for reminding me about this.

How farcical are the AFL rules when everyone has to stand around and watch the GC ruckman take the ball without someone going up with him because they forgot to nominate a player. AFL administration is just a joke with no common sense.

[jazzadogs]

Thank you for reminding me about this.

How farcical are the AFL rules when everyone has to stand around and watch the GC ruckman take the ball without someone going up with him because they forgot to nominate a player. AFL administration is just a joke with no common sense.

Especially when their nominee had a direct opponent in Bailey Smith.
Yes, silly by Smith to not raise his hand and say he was the ruckman.
Yes, silly by the umpire to not use common sense that the Bulldogs nominee was probably the player contesting with the GC nominee.
Yes yes yes, terrible by our coaching staff to not have a better plan.
Also confused why GC didn't send Ben King in to contest those hitouts, rather than have him stand in the goalsquare.

[Mofra]

Especially when their nominee had a direct opponent in Bailey Smith.
Yes, silly by Smith to not raise his hand and say he was the ruckman.
Yes, silly by the umpire to not use common sense that the Bulldogs nominee was probably the player contesting with the GC nominee.
Yes yes yes, terrible by our coaching staff to not have a better plan.
Also confused why GC didn't send Ben King in to contest those hitouts, rather than have him stand in the goalsquare.
It was an interesting tactic - more aimed at not leaving English free around the ground than anything else.

Not rucking Ben King I can understand, not having Sam Day do it was ahead scratcher but it worked - we got caught out a couple of times. I distinctly remember Macrae taking one contest.

[Remi Moses]

Great point made
That was a horrendous mistake especially against an excellent stoppage inside 50 team
The whole rule is like an under 10 one
Another sledgehammer to a grape type rule
Billy’s been disappointing the last 2 seasons and gone away from what made him a valuable player
He doesn’t lead up anymore and seems to want to engage in a test of strength with his opponent

[merantau]

Re: the Gowers pile on. Yes, a lot of people had a crack at him and there were a wide range of cracks from earthquake size to hairline. I had a crack implying that he had better grasp any more opps that came his way cos he had no credits left.
I think the pile on was really influencd by the way the game unfolded. If it was us trying to win and he muffed the chance to pass to Smith in the open for a certain goal the pile on would have been a lot less

[Axe Man]

It was an interesting tactic - more aimed at not leaving English free around the ground than anything else.

Not rucking Ben King I can understand, not having Sam Day do it was ahead scratcher but it worked - we got caught out a couple of times. I distinctly remember Macrae taking one contest.

Macrae had one ruck contest against David Swallow which was quite strange. Jack got 2 hitouts as well so guess who our new backup ruck is!

[bornadog]

Especially when their nominee had a direct opponent in Bailey Smith.
Yes, silly by Smith to not raise his hand and say he was the ruckman.
Yes, silly by the umpire to not use common sense that the Bulldogs nominee was probably the player contesting with the GC nominee.
Yes yes yes, terrible by our coaching staff to not have a better plan.
Also confused why GC didn't send Ben King in to contest those hitouts, rather than have him stand in the goalsquare.

My point is there should be no need to nominate, just go up. Need third man up to come back as well

[Axe Man]

My point is there should be no need to nominate, just go up. Need third man up to come back as well

I agree but I doubt they will allow third man up again.

Just throw it up/in quickly, don't wait for the ruckmen and anybody can contest the tap as long as it's only 1 from each team if they are determined not to allow the third man.

[Topdog]

I criticises the pile on last night and in the pre match thread but at the same time cannot stop watching that gif of it that is going around. It was an incredible brain fart

[mjp]

I criticises the pile on last night and in the pre match thread but at the same time cannot stop watching that gif of it that is going around. It was an incredible brain fart

It was a mistake. Well. Actually a skill error from a player desperate to play on in order to get it to an open team-mate. He didn’t turn his hips and didn’t pull back to get momentum through the ball. His mis-kicked it because he was trying to do the team thing. If he had hit the target, I doubt anyone would care...but in all honesty, he didn’t need to kick it at all. Go back, hold, take your time. Easy for me to say...I’m not playing for my spot.

One other thing:

When Richards kicked the first goal of the last, that came from Vander who received from Young. Fine. What’s lost in this is before young got it, Gowers had it. And rather than handball to a teammate streaming towards goal (I think Wallis) he kicked it and it was smothered...I would not be surprised if he got a stern ‘give the first option’ message, which would have contributed to his urgency to kick the ball on quickly later.

I don’t think this stuff is as simple a simple we all make it out to be.

[comrade]

It was a mistake. Well. Actually a skill error from a player desperate to play on in order to get it to an open team-mate. He didn’t turn his hips and didn’t pull back to get momentum through the ball. His mis-kicked it because he was trying to do the team thing. If he had hit the target, I doubt anyone would care...but in all honesty, he didn’t need to kick it at all. Go back, hold, take your time. Easy for me to say...I’m not playing for my spot.

One other thing:

When Richards kicked the first goal of the last, that came from Vander who received from Young. Fine. What’s lost in this is before young got it, Gowers had it. And rather than handball to a teammate streaming towards goal (I think Wallis) he kicked it and it was smothered...I would not be surprised if he got a stern ‘give the first option’ message, which would have contributed to his urgency to kick the ball on quickly later.

I don’t think this stuff is as simple a simple we all make it out to be.

Wood didn't help by calling for the ball in the corridor.

[Bulldog Joe]

I agree but I doubt they will allow third man up again.

Just throw it up/in quickly, don't wait for the ruckmen and anybody can contest the tap as long as it's only 1 from each team if they are determined not to allow the third man.

This is how it should be. Logical therefore unlikely.

The AFL regularly proves that common sense is non existent.

If it is sense it will not be common
If it is common it will not be sense.

[Twodogs]

As far as Billy goes I made my point when we were rumoured to be looking at drafting him after watching him at Footscray for a season but once he is in the team he has my support.



The AFL regularly proves that common sense is non existent.

If it is sense it will not be common
If it is common it will not be sense.

Stupidest. Rule. Ever.

Speaking of a pile on, there was a huge media pile on in reaction to our 2016 premiership win and more specifically to Bont's tactic of going third man up at ruck contests. I think the official justification was ruckmen would be injured so in that case why are third men allowed up in marking contests?

Anyway in the best AFL tradition the AFL overeacted majorly to a (especially Bulldogs advantage) tactic and bought in the ridiculous third man up rule. The irony is that they now wonder how they will fix congestion!

[The bulldog tragician]

I’d like to think there is a big difference in criticising what billy did and who Billy is. I think we’d have been equally horrified in that moment even if Bont made the same choice. It was an error. And errors at that stage feel more heartbreaking. While it is a fact that other costly mistakes were made, it’s also a fact that even after the countless decisions good and bad our players made all night, we were ahead with under a minute to go, one of our players had the ball and chose either a poor option or executed one badly.

But a line frequently gets crossed into personal abuse which should never happen. I’m sure Billy didn’t go out there with any other intent but to play well, secure his spot in the team and help us win.

Having doubts about Billy as an AFL footballer should never cross over with vitriol towards him as a person. With three (at least) of our players of recent times struggling with mental health issues we should know that by now.

[ledge]

Every club has a player fans favour as a scape goat, Billy is ours, I have met him and he is such a nice friendly bloke I would never question his efforts, he just seems to find the worst times to mess up, but I do still think he has the x factor.
I do remember a kind of karate kick goal that pretty much won us a game or was very important at the time.
His best and worst are polar opposites I just wish he showed more best.

[mjp]

Every club has a player fans favour as a scape goat, Billy is ours.

I guess I don't understand why our anger is so often directed at two players who have:

1/. Won their chance at a second club through hard work.
2/. Come off rookie contracts so clearly doing it tough compared to many of their team-mates financially.

The criticism levelled at Gardiner and Gowers is to me extraordinary...particularly since given no-one thinks they are any good anyway, why get surprised/upset when they mess things up?

And again on the error last night. It didn't actually COST US anything. And it was a SKILL ERROR. Sorry, but I just don't get the frustration or annoyance with one player who seemed to be trying his hardest.

[Before I Die]

Although I don’t like it, I understand the outpouring of frustration after a poor skill error or decision. What I hate and don’t understand is the vitriol that can flow after a player wins selection. Gowers and Gardner are the whipping boys at the moment and I think there is a need for a good hard look in the mirror by some posters. Question the selection of a tall when you think we need a small, or a lockdown player rather than a runner, but universally applaud the effort of a player to win selection and wish them all the best.
Last night the selectors and the players got us across the line. I was pretty happy and I’m confident the post game review will highlight and address the obvious areas of concern.

[Before I Die]

I guess I don't understand why our anger is so often directed at two players who have:

1/. Won their chance at a second club through hard work.
2/. Come off rookie contracts so clearly doing it tough compared to many of their team-mates financially.

The criticism levelled at Gardiner and Gowers is to me extraordinary...particularly since given no-one thinks they are any good anyway, why get surprised/upset when they mess things up?

And again on the error last night. It didn't actually COST US anything. And it was a SKILL ERROR. Sorry, but I just don't get the frustration or annoyance with one player who seemed to be trying his hardest.

Well said mjp, you beat me to it.

[josie]

Agree that criticism of poor decision making is different than criticism of person.

If we cannot voice our opinions (as long as we do so with civility) then why have a footy forum?

Without looking at woof game day and team selection posts again I cannot recall any that were over the top and “going the person”.

It just so happened that many of us were of the same opinion after the game - we would prefer to Gowers not to play seniors again as we think he has limited skills and low footy IQ. This opinion was stronger I suspect because of the other players many of us think have far superior skills eg a reasonably consistent ability to kick kickable goals and not giving away silly free kicks.

If MC does select Billy (or other players who i think should not be selected again) I will always wish him well and hope he proves many of us wrong in a big big way.

[Raw Toast]

I was pretty upset with what he did, and I find his general refusal to take the first option very frustrating.

But I think it must be very, very difficult to be a high profile athlete in this social media age - so much focus, so little mercy, so much cruelty/dehumanisation.

While there's always been a heap of pressure on players, I do think it has intensified, and there's a pretty clear link to how many players are struggling to with mental health issues in general, and depression in particular.

I think MJP's comments about the abuse Gowers and Gardiner have received is an excellent one, and while I'm never critical on social media, I'll still work to be better in my own communications around the game.

And finally, on Gowers, as I saw it, he got in the right place a lot of times in the 2nd half, but seemed to be trying too hard, either giving too quickly (before he could steady himself and do it accurately), or reverting to the hero ball which he often does. He's clearly got some promise, let's hope that he can get a bit more confidence and composure.

[mjp]

Without looking at woof game day and team selection posts again I cannot recall any that were over the top and “going the person”.

If MC does select Billy (or other players who i think should not be selected again) I will always wish him well and hope he proves many of us wrong in a big big way.

I don’t read the match day thread anymore. The team selection thread was interesting- page 7 is all about people wishing Hunter well with regards his current personal issues. Which you can assume are in some way MH related. Pages 8,9,10, etc are all criticising the selection of Gowers. I actually want people to post and discuss it - I really do - but just reading everyone saying he is hopeless get s seriously tiresome. He was our leading goal kicker 2 years back - he must have some recognisable skills. Bevo knows a whole heap more than me and he is picking him...something is obviously going on at training to cause this.

Honestly, I don’t really understand his selection either, but saying his selection is a waste of time or that someone’s from the forum could do a better job is not a discussion...it’s just lowest common denominator stuff. What Ian going on with Dickson? I don’t know. It might be as simple as the role Billy plays is the same as the one Dale plays...so Dale out = Gowers in? What role does Dale play? Hell, what role does Lloyd play? I would love someone’s to have a go at unpacking it rather than just issuing a blanket “he’s hopeless” mandate.

Why don’t I do it? Because I’m not smart enough to work it out ans am a bit lost with regards our ever changing forward structure...

[Mitcha]

I guess I don't understand why our anger is so often directed at two players who have:

1/. Won their chance at a second club through hard work.
2/. Come off rookie contracts so clearly doing it tough compared to many of their team-mates financially.

The criticism levelled at Gardiner and Gowers is to me extraordinary...particularly since given no-one thinks they are any good anyway, why get surprised/upset when they mess things up?

And again on the error last night. It didn't actually COST US anything. And it was a SKILL ERROR. Sorry, but I just don't get the frustration or annoyance with one player who seemed to be trying his hardest.

I agree MJP it was a skill error but the skill error happened after a very very poor decision.
Good teams and coaches simulate late game scenarios at training often and the decision Billy made was one that should be made if we are 5 points down with little time left to open up the ground, not when we are 5 points in front and simply needing to maintain the ball. And as for your point of not actually costing us anything that is true on this occasion but fast forward to a tight final with the same scenario, would you or anyone else trust Billy to make the smart decision??? It's a solid NO from me. Dickson, Lloyd or West can play the same role and am staggered that Gowers was preferred to any of the other options.

[mjp]

I agree MJP it was a skill error but the skill error happened after a very very poor decision.
Good teams and coaches simulate late game scenarios at training often and the decision Billy made was one that should be made if we are 5 points down with little time left to open up the ground, not when we are 5 points in front and simply needing to maintain the ball....


1. Read my post about the earlier failure to release the first option handball + another comment in this thread (can’t remember by who) about Gowers not giving first option...this time he actively tried to do it.

2. You don’t know WHAT they have been doing at training (with no disrespect intended) so that part is a massive assumption.

3. A million other stupid errors (such as the one I mentioned about no ruckman at a d50 stoppage) and no other ‘pile ons’. In fact, the d50 stoppage one triggered a bunch of “it’s a stupid rule” comments...but equally one I’m pretty confident each and every player knows.

No excuse for playing the man here. If you don’t like gowers, fine. Say it. But don’t add to the pile on if he makes a mistake...

[Stefcep]

I didn't join the "pile up". And wanting Gowers sacked forewith was going too far. Demoting for a good month is not.

Having said that I don't accept the defense that "a million other errors" eg the ruck happened, yet only Gowers is being singled out.

I don't accept the defense that we didn't loose the game on the back of it so it was not that big a deal . Because we could so easily have.

I don't accept the defense that if we'd done x y or z differently earlier in the game, we wouldn't be in that position where a Gowers brain fart could have lost it. I don't accept it because those moments are gone and the game was still alive, and here we are at the moment of deciding the outcome What counts is what Gowers-or any other player- does, when it counts.

It counted. Lots. As I said in the matchday thread: Its important..

That's the difference.

[Stefcep]

I agree MJP it was a skill error but the skill error happened after a very very poor decision.
Good teams and coaches simulate late game scenarios at training often and the decision Billy made was one that should be made if we are 5 points down with little time left to open up the ground, not when we are 5 points in front and simply needing to maintain the ball. And as for your point of not actually costing us anything that is true on this occasion but fast forward to a tight final with the same scenario, would you or anyone else trust Billy to make the smart decision??? It's a solid NO from me. Dickson, Lloyd or West can play the same role and am staggered that Gowers was preferred to any of the other options.


Agree 100%. Contex is everything. Turning it over in the first quarter is not the same as turning it over with less than a minute and a kick in it. Yeah, Gowers and anyone esle WILL cop it harder if they make exactly the same thing as someone else did ealrier in the game. That's how it is and all professional footballers would know that.

[Grantysghost]

I'm not sure there is a lot anyone can do to muster a defence of that Gowers' kick. It was a mistake. That wasn't my issue at all, point that out for sure. It was at a critical time we all reacted the same. Personally my head went into my hands and I looked through my fingers until the siren.
My issue was with the anticipation of the error and subsequent magnification because it was Billy. He's a 20-22 player at best on current form. Every team has them; needs them, and he played his part I believe by working hard all night and giving a contest for our club. He wasn't alone that night making errors, even the Bont made some critical errors in the game, one I recall he tried to hit a pass and he sliced it into a dangerous position.
It just appeared from the moment he was selected it was the "told you so" moment for so many and the vindication champagne was flowing strong; pats on the back all round.
I get it. It's emotional, I was the same in his defence we all love the club. But there is a line and the pile on from selection to stuff up was over the top I believe. It wasn't just the game day thread.
I just feel sometimes If we could find as much energy pumping up these guys, as we do for bringing them down I think that's energy well spent. He's on his last chance, I imagine it was the last thing he wanted to do!
Enjoying the discussion, I hope Billy gets another chance and proves his worth.

[G-Mo77]

I didn't pile on afterwards (I don't think) I probably could be heard by the next door neighbours house and beyond the minute he took that kick. The worst part is that I knew it was going to go bad the minute he marked it and hoped he didn't screw it up. My opinion is that he shouldn't be there and think there are better options not playing. I don't like the @ing players on social media but sadly this is the world we live in now.

Just out of interest does anyone else follow other sports closely and see public responses to other players? I follow the NBA and man, those guys get hammered.

[comrade]

I think most of the Gowers criticism is actually fuelled by frustration with Bevo and his selection antics. I don't think anyone honestly dislikes Billy but the repeat chances Bevo has afforded him despite a lot of evidence that he's not quite up to the level just bubbled over.

There were plenty of people before the game that said he'll do something stupid that will impact our chances and low and behold, he did. Now it didn't cost us the match, but that's more Gold Coasts fault than anything.

Yeah, we didn't have a ruckman at a defensive contest but that's a much different scenario to a bloke who has a history of making very questionable choices on field (which is the very reason people pot him in the first place) having the ball in his hands with 40 seconds to go with a 5 point lead and free players everywhere, and deciding to bite off the riskiest option possible.

Everyone loves a good 'I told you so' and unfortunately for Billy & Bevo, he keeps giving the mob the opportunity to do it.

[Bulldog4life]

I don't know what Billy achieved in training or in scratch matches to warrant selection, but in any case he was there in the RWB.

Yes, the moment he kicked that ball when he had an option to kick to Smith all on his own in the forward 50, I screamed at home. Mrs BAD was not happy as I promised her I wouldn't yell and scream whilst watching any Bulldog matches.

I agree with JazzaD, there has been too much bagging Billy and not enough positivity towards our gutsy win.

Ditto BAD. We must have married sisters. :)

[Mitcha]

1. Read my post about the earlier failure to release the first option handball + another comment in this thread (can’t remember by who) about Gowers not giving first option...this time he actively tried to do it.

Yes he did, but why in this specific scenario???

2. You don’t know WHAT they have been doing at training (with no disrespect intended) so that part is a massive assumption.

Now you are making an assumption that I don't know what happens at training. (with no disrespect intended)

3. A million other stupid errors (such as the one I mentioned about no ruckman at a d50 stoppage) and no other ‘pile ons’. In fact, the d50 stoppage one triggered a bunch of “it’s a stupid rule” comments...but equally one I’m pretty confident each and every player knows.

No excuse for playing the man here. If you don’t like gowers, fine. Say it. But don’t add to the pile on if he makes a mistake...

It's pretty obvious I don't rate Gowers and believe there are many better options each week.

[mjp]

I don't accept the defense that we didn't loose the game on the back of it so it was not that big a deal . Because we could so easily have.



I don't accept the defense that if we'd done x y or z differently earlier in the game, we wouldn't be in that position where a Gowers brain fart could have lost it.




That's the difference.

I'm smiling.

The issues early in the game don't count as they don't mean anything 'cos they "don't directly impact the result". But issues late in the game DO COUNT even if they don't directly impact the result??? So if Gowers error had been in the 2nd q it wouldn't matter but because it happened at the end it does? And if they had scored a goal on TO in the 2nd q then that wouldn't have mattered as much as the same error in the last q that DIDN'T lead to a goal?

Right. I get it now.

I am pleased you said you didn't join the pile-on but suggesting that goals missed early in the game (as an example of an error) don't count as much as goals missed late in the game is such a ridiculous mentality. Everyone wants everyone to be 'CLUTCH' I guess - I mean it's all about the match winning three-pointer, never mind the stupid cheap foul in the 2nd q that cost 2-points and in the scheme of things is WHY you were 3-down in the first place. Or at the very least one of the reasons.

Mistakes are mistakes. Skill errors happen. Yes, it would be better if they didn't. 100%. But they do. I am much more interested in praising the late game efforts of Williams and Vander than slagging off Gowers. I guess that means I am in the minority.

[mjp]

It's pretty obvious I don't rate Gowers and believe there are many better options each week.

So you highlighted my "You don't know what they have been doing at training" comment. Was that to say you do know what they have been doing or was that something else?

And if you do know, what else have they been doing?? :-)

[comrade]

So you highlighted my "You don't know what they have been doing at training" comment. Was that to say you do know what they have been doing or was that something else?

And if you do know, what else have they been doing?? :-)

Well, whatever Billy is doing at training definitely isn't translating at AFL level. Yet he still gets picked. That's where the frustration is coming from, IMO.

[bornadog]

Well, whatever Billy is doing at training definitely isn't translating at AFL level. Yet he still gets picked. That's where the frustration is coming from, IMO.

Don't you have to reward players that train well and play well in VFL or scratch matches and drop players when they don't play well.?

[mjp]

Don't you have to reward players that train well and play well in VFL or scratch matches and drop players when they don't play well.?

They have to reward training form right now - because that is ALL THERE IS.

If Gowers - and Gardiner who, as another posted once said is supposed to be an EXCELLENT track worker! - are training well whilst others aren't, then they should be selected. Otherwise selection truly becomes a boys club/coaches favourites club call it what you will.

The players need to see positive performance being rewarded. They need to see poor EFFORT being excluded. Beyond that - skill level, decision making etc - all that stuff is a work in progress for every player!!!

[bornadog]

They have to reward training form right now - because that is ALL THERE IS.

If Gowers - and Gardiner who, as another posted once said is supposed to be an EXCELLENT track worker! - are training well whilst others aren't, then they should be selected. Otherwise selection truly becomes a boys club/coaches favourites club call it what you will.

The players need to see positive performance being rewarded. They need to see poor EFFORT being excluded. Beyond that - skill level, decision making etc - all that stuff is a work in progress for every player!!!

Totally agree. There are the scratch matches as well, which I guess is really an extension of training right now.

[comrade]

Don't you have to reward players that train well and play well in VFL or scratch matches and drop players when they don't play well.?

Sure, but I struggle to believe Gowers is training so much better than everyone else that he keeps being considered in spite of his track record at highest level.

Actual performance > training performance

[mjp]

Sure, but I struggle to believe Gowers is training so much better than everyone else that he keeps being considered in spite of his track record at highest level.

Actual performance > training performance

But what other explanation is there? You either believe it or you think Bevo is a complete goose...is there a "Option C".

[GVGjr]

They have to reward training form right now - because that is ALL THERE IS.

If Gowers - and Gardiner who, as another posted once said is supposed to be an EXCELLENT track worker! - are training well whilst others aren't, then they should be selected. Otherwise selection truly becomes a boys club/coaches favourites club call it what you will.

The players need to see positive performance being rewarded. They need to see poor EFFORT being excluded. Beyond that - skill level, decision making etc - all that stuff is a work in progress for every player!!!

I'm not sure this is the correct answer for our often confusing team selections.
What we had previously was a VFL side and for whatever reason we often ignored the better performed players for other players that fitted the flavor of the month type selections that we seem to go with on occasions.

I mentioned earlier in the week that I was neutral on the Gowers selection and I probably remain that way for the game against the Tigers but assuming he is selected he has to perform better than he did on Thursday night. I haven't been critical of Gardiner either but I do find it confusing that he is preferred over Lewis Young and Trengove because regardless of how he is training or performing in the practice games he just seems to be a way off what is needed at the senior level and perhaps he just needs more time before coming back into the senior side calculations. I'd be interested in hearing the logic of his selection over the other two but failing that all that I can go with, and this is the same for all WOOF members, is what we see on game day and from my perspective that hasn't been up to expectations.

I get the logic of bringing in the younger guys but outside of Vandermeer it's questionable on how it has helped the side

We drop Schache after one poor game in the seniors (after making him earn his senior spot) when conditions wouldn't have suited him anyway but have tolerated some soft performances from Bruce because of his name so I think you can see why I question just how committed are to picking players 'in form' however you want to measure it?
West gets dropped off one poor performance and yet Richards has been maintained after 3 less than impressive games and I'm a big fan of Ed.

I get we shouldn't be overly critical of players and there is probably some other considerations we aren't privy to but we can only call it based on what we see.

[comrade]

But what other explanation is there? You either believe it or you think Bevo is a complete goose...is there a "Option C".

I don't know, but playing devil's advocate...

Option C = Bevo overruled our recruiting dept and chose Gowers as a rookie causing our recruiting boss to leave. He's only human and has a vested interest in giving Gowers as much opportunity to prove himself right.

[mjp]

I'm not sure this is the correct answer for our often confusing team selections.
What we had previously was a VFL side and for whatever reason we often ignored the better performed players for other players that fitted the flavor of the month type selections that we seem to go with on occasions.

We either believe it is based on form or based purely on 'gut feel'. Playing well in the VFL isn't always the 'tell'...what the coaches want to see might not be thought of as a 'good game' to a secondary observer.



I mentioned earlier in the week that I was neutral on the Gowers selection and I probably remain that way for the game against the Tigers but assuming he is selected he has to perform better than he did on Thursday night. I haven't been critical of Gardiner either but I do find it confusing that he is preferred over Lewis Young and Trengove because regardless of how he is training or performing in the practice games he just seems to be a way off what is needed at the senior level and perhaps he just needs more time before coming back into the senior side calculations. I'd be interested in hearing the logic of his selection over the other two but failing that all that I can go with, and this is the same for all WOOF members, is what we see on game day and from my perspective that hasn't been up to expectations.

I'm fine with Gowers. And West. And Schache. And whoever. All of them can be frustrating. As long as they are giving effort whilst I might be frustrated with the outcomes I am fine. When they make the same mistakes/play the same way over and again (Dale = anti-pressure which annoys me for example) then I think they need a rest...but they don't necessarily need to be dropped in order to learn a lesson.



I get the logic of bringing in the younger guys but outside of Vandermeer it's questionable on how it has helped the side

We drop Schache after one poor game in the seniors (after making him earn his senior spot) when conditions wouldn't have suited him anyway but have tolerated some soft performances from Bruce because of his name so I think you can see why I question just how committed are to picking players 'in form' however you want to measure it?
West gets dropped off one poor performance and yet Richards has been maintained after 3 less than impressive games and I'm a big fan of Ed.


The management of our younger players has been strange - you would recall I posted a few weeks ago that maybe our preference was to be YOUNG versus being GOOD so I get your point. There was another comment about Bevo liking his shiny new toys - 5x debuts in any season seems like a lot, let alone in 8 weeks! BUT. I agree with your point on Richards but we don't know what he is being asked to do. Likewise West. Then there is the positional roles each player is being asked to play and - as I mentioned with Gowers - maybe it is as simple as he plays the same role as Lloyd, we needed that 'role' for the forward structure we were going with, Lloyd is out therefore Gowers is in. Or something. I don't know but I am sure it is more 'scientific' than it seems.




I get we shouldn't be overly critical of players and there is probably some other considerations we aren't privy to but we can only call it based on what we see.

Fair enough.

[The Adelaide Connection]

An interesting thread and I think there is merit in the suggestion that over on Fb and the like people are upping their keyboard warriorism as some kind of cathartic release that maybe they would usually get at the footy.

I am living in relative normality at the moment and I can only speculate and imagine the stress and frustration of people caught in the Victorian lockdowns, but I suspect the Pile-on's might get more frequent, larger, and more aggressive as it drags out.

I'd wager that even if we play a near-perfect game against the Tigers people will still jump on something. I actually worry about Billy Gowers (or whoever else ends up being in the line of fire) because I think things are starting to go a bit 'next level' and these guys are pretty active on social media and that hate is likely to find him almost everywhere he goes.

[Grantysghost]

I'd hate to see what he's copping if this is required....

https://i.postimg.cc/HLdWppwh/Screenshot-20200730-160643-Twitter.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I don't know what is being said on social media, and i'd hate to think of what it could be. No-one deserves personal attacks but it doesn't mean his game can't be criticised simply because he's a nice guy having a crack. Poor Billy looks simply devoid of confidence at the moment. We know he is capable of better. But can he consistently deliver that? I don't think so. I think his first season was a flash in the pan.

[Grantysghost]

No-one deserves personal attacks

Spot on, so many keyboard warriors on social media must be tough if you're struggling. At least people on here are considered.

[comrade]

Feels like he's been thrown to the wolves and that's on Bevo.

[azabob]

Feels like he's been thrown to the wolves and that's on Bevo.

Because Bevo selected him to play?

[comrade]

Because Bevo selected him to play?

Yeah, selecting him after the Suns game.

Billy, bereft of all confidence and already in the gun, was on a hiding to nothing by playing vs the Tigers.

[The bulldog tragician]

Tom Boyd has also spoken out.
https://i.postimg.cc/zftGh5mD/5-EAC1112-AF45-48-D8-A557-5744-D77083-A2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/f3ds4GT1)photo upload site (https://postimages.org/)

[jazzadogs]

His full name was trending on twitter last night, which means it was one of the most common phrases being used in Melbourne at the time. That is never a good sign.

There's also been a disgraceful article from the Hun about his negative Supercoach score, which has been widely criticised.

Tbh this is the sort of stuff I was hoping this thread would discuss. I think all of us on social media should think about where we are posting and who our audience might be, and call out those who cross the line.

[Ozza]

Tom Boyd has also spoken out.
https://i.postimg.cc/zftGh5mD/5-EAC1112-AF45-48-D8-A557-5744-D77083-A2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/f3ds4GT1)photo upload site (https://postimages.org/)

Unfortunately, although Tom has good intentions - this just makes it a bigger issue. Would have otherwise been unnoticed, but might even get more coverage now and potential embarrassment for Billy.

[bornadog]

Unfortunately, although Tom has good intentions - this just makes it a bigger issue. Would have otherwise been unnoticed, but might even get more coverage now and potential embarrassment for Billy.

Disgraceful and disrespectful, I have never seen any players stats broken down like that in an article.

[G-Mo77]

Disgraceful and disrespectful, I have never seen any players stats broken down like that in an article.

I don't know. It's breaking down the SC scores and lists all the others who take the - walk of shame. Is it really that awful?

[bornadog]

I don't know. It's breaking down the SC scores and lists all the others who take the - walk of shame. Is it really that awful?

I think it is unnecesary pile on

[G-Mo77]

I think it is unnecesary pile on

Most of what these clowns write is uneccesary. Don't think he's piling it on. I'm sure if it was another player at another club it would be highlighted. 84% Game time and a -2 score is certainly dreadful and well worth mentioning. If a cricketer had multiple ducks in a row, been hit for 50 of 3 overs or dropped multiple catches the media wouldn't hold back. I think we're getting a bit hysterical over a blurb in an article to be honest

[The bulldog tragician]

Unfortunately, although Tom has good intentions - this just makes it a bigger issue. Would have otherwise been unnoticed, but might even get more coverage now and potential embarrassment for Billy.
Bizarrely the journo concerned has now been pilloried as well with comments about his appearance (red hair & freckles) that he wouldn’t have got a kick in under 12s etc...

The social media universe is so often ugly. A lot of the not-so-good players that I recall became sort of cult anti-heroes. There seemed to be more humour. For some reason I vividly a series of thrashings where big forwards had feasted on Matthew Croft in his early years. We were heading home in a carriage of Bulldogs fans all dejected and glum. Someone said, “God who’s going to play on Kernahan next week?” After an awful silence someone said: “it’s ok, Crofty’ll hold him.”...to hoots of laughter throughout our crowd.

Fans seemed a lot...kinder, I guess, more patient and accepting of foibles. Crofty was as much a favourite of mine as Chris Grant despite unpromising beginnings.

Gowers isn’t going to be a superstar, or a Matthew Croft who got his body right and became a terrific defender...he probably won’t make it even to 50 games. It’s fair enough to have doubts that he’s up to scratch, I just hope he doesn’t read some of the worst viciousness which goes beyond that.

[Grantysghost]

Most of what these clowns write is uneccesary. Don't think he's piling it on. I'm sure if it was another player at another club it would be highlighted. 84% Game time and a -2 score is certainly dreadful and well worth mentioning. If a cricketer had multiple ducks in a row, been hit for 50 of 3 overs or dropped multiple catches the media wouldn't hold back. I think we're getting a bit hysterical over a blurb in an article to be honest

I don't think you can compare the two. Supercoach is a "fantasy" scoring system that is deeply flawed and normalised. If he had say, missed a record number of set shots in a row then yes that's based in reality and you could maybe analyse this seriously, but to leverage his trending anti popularity for click bait is pretty average journalism and extends the pile on. If Billy comes out tomorrow with mental health issues I'm sure, as you rightly point out, these clowns, would be doing the #jesuisbilly. It's the death by 1000 cuts many players talk about regarding social media and news outlets. This alone agree isn't worth getting hysterical about but its a torrent of abuse now. Even on the bulldogs sub reddit which is usually considered its up votes for Billy memes. We get it. He didn't play well. Wasn't from lack of trying.

[Remi Moses]

Just becomes a pile on of just classless crass nonsense
Yeah ok billy isn’t up to it , yet people post on how they hate him and it’s really a sewer to be honest
The young bloke who wrote the article gets piled on about his appearance
It just goes on and on and on .

[G-Mo77]

I don't think you can compare the two. Supercoach is a "fantasy" scoring system that is deeply flawed and normalised. If he had say, missed a record number of set shots in a row then yes that's based in reality and you could maybe analyse this seriously, but to leverage his trending anti popularity for click bait is pretty average journalism and extends the pile on. If Billy comes out tomorrow with mental health issues I'm sure, as you rightly point out, these clowns, would be doing the #jesuisbilly. It's the death by 1000 cuts many players talk about regarding social media and news outlets. This alone agree isn't worth getting hysterical about but its a torrent of abuse now. Even on the bulldogs sub reddit which is usually considered its up votes for Billy memes. We get it. He didn't play well. Wasn't from lack of trying.

I honestly think it was more aimed at SC'ers rather than trying to cash in on Billy's unpopularity. If he didn't have 3 FA or a couple less clangers he probably would have walked away with a low score and the article wouldn't have been written.

[Mofra]

I honestly think it was more aimed at SC'ers rather than trying to cash in on Billy's unpopularity. If he didn't have 3 FA or a couple less clangers he probably would have walked away with a low score and the article wouldn't have been written.
He got a couple of very harsh FA too which made that score negative.

The guy's training his guts out by all accounts. I'm really uncomfortable with the amount of criticism he's getting just for playing sport, especially considering the current social climate of Victoria being in lockdown while we have daily death tolls.

[Grantysghost]

I honestly think it was more aimed at SC'ers rather than trying to cash in on Billy's unpopularity. If he didn't have 3 FA or a couple less clangers he probably would have walked away with a low score and the article wouldn't have been written.

That's a fair comment. He did get 10? in the AFL fantasy game. Maybe their article should be about their ridiculous scoring system but that's another debate :cool:

[FrediKanoute]

They have to reward training form right now - because that is ALL THERE IS.

If Gowers - and Gardiner who, as another posted once said is supposed to be an EXCELLENT track worker! - are training well whilst others aren't, then they should be selected. Otherwise selection truly becomes a boys club/coaches favourites club call it what you will.

The players need to see positive performance being rewarded. They need to see poor EFFORT being excluded. Beyond that - skill level, decision making etc - all that stuff is a work in progress for every player!!!

But its clear both struggle with the step up to senior football. Why do they struggle. With Billy yeah I think it is all between his ears , because as a physical specimen he has everything you want in an elite footballer. Maybe you can carry him and hope that it clicks like it did in 2018, but the MC have to recognise that he has limitations and that if he doesn't work then it goes pearshaped in a major way.

[jeemak]

I don't think you can compare the two. Supercoach is a "fantasy" scoring system that is deeply flawed and normalised. If he had say, missed a record number of set shots in a row then yes that's based in reality and you could maybe analyse this seriously, but to leverage his trending anti popularity for click bait is pretty average journalism and extends the pile on. If Billy comes out tomorrow with mental health issues I'm sure, as you rightly point out, these clowns, would be doing the #jesuisbilly. It's the death by 1000 cuts many players talk about regarding social media and news outlets. This alone agree isn't worth getting hysterical about but its a torrent of abuse now. Even on the bulldogs sub reddit which is usually considered its up votes for Billy memes. We get it. He didn't play well. Wasn't from lack of trying.

If he does come out and say he is struggling mentally then we pile on him again and say he should just harden up. Then the people who think telling him that he needs to harden up is off, can then get told by people to just harden up. So on and so forth.

I love dishing out a spray, but I learned a long time ago the only time you should do it is if someone has done something wrong and they were fully aware and in control of the situation when they did it. Social media is a complete pit of feral behaviour, and the hard part is that sprays become cheap and more and more get dished out. Hence, becoming ineffectual.

If everyone dished out sprays on the principles above, there'd be less of them and the world would be a nicer place.